Correct, the horn is inhabated by diverse African groups.
Ancient Egypt was most likely just a mixture of these groups which have been diluted by eurasion ancestory of recent (ie, Turkish, Arab etc etc)
I take it that your are not zoning out the fact that the ancient Nile Valley was a complex 'mixture' of both Saharan elements and populations who were living up the Nile. If you are, what is your evidence to the contrary?
No this is what i was trying to imply in my post. But what I am trying to understand is:
Where the predynastic Egyptians from the horn (ie could the land of Punt been in the horn)?
This would mean that the ancients were a diverse mixture of subsaharan Africans.
But was the horn as diverse as it is today (especially on the western edges of Ethiopia) in the past?
Who do the nubians (nilo-saharan speaking populations) cluster with in terms of genetics?
Modern Egyptians have a high percentage of E3b, thus suggesting a strong East African link.
Could Punt actually be considered for places like Central Africa excluding Eurasia (ie setting info from sources)
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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I take it that your are not zoning out the fact that the ancient Nile Valley was a complex 'mixture' of both Saharan elements and populations who were living up the Nile. If you are, what is your evidence to the contrary?
No this is what i was trying to imply in my post. But what I am trying to understand is:
Where the predynastic Egyptians from the horn (ie could the land of Punt been in the horn)?
This has just been answered, and you said according to your comment just now, that you understood it. The predynastic Egyptians were a complex 'mixture' of Saharan groups and those who were living up the Nile [i.e. primarily from "Nubia", but ultimately from the African Horn or thereof, of course].
quote:Prince_of_punt:
This would mean that the ancients were a diverse mixture of subsaharan Africans.
Yeap.
quote:Print_of_punt:
But was the horn as diverse as it is today (especially on the western edges of Ethiopia) in the past?
There is no reason to suggest that it was any less 'diverse' than it is now.
quote:Prince_of_punt:
Who do the nubians (nilo-saharan speaking populations) cluster with in terms of genetics?
Don't know who the "Nubians" are, in the context you are placing them, but predynastic Egyptian [paticularly Badarian and Nagadan] and early kingdom crania clustered closely with those in Kerma, and to some degree with groups from further south, like Kenya, Gabon, etc. See Keita 1990/91 study of crania.
quote:Prince_of_punt:
Modern Egyptians have a high percentage of E3b, thus suggesting a strong East African link.
Modern Egyptian populations show genetic gradients, from significan E3b and J lineages, and to lesser extent, R and K lineages in the northern regions, to predominantly E3b and notable frequencies of E3a in Upper Egypt to Sudan.
Even northern Egyptian carry E3a, if I'm not mistaken according to the familiar Luis et al. map. But this is quite small generally speaking, and in comparison to that in upper Egypt.
Please be reminded that, "northern" Egyptian samples is what you see in this map, not those from middle to upper Egypt!
quote:Prince_of_punt:
Could Punt actually be considered for places like Central Africa excluding Eurasia (ie setting info from sources)
Punt has clues that it probably covered a region south of Egypt, that included a yet to be determined portion of eastern Africa [e.g. the African Horn and Sudan], and perhaps central Africa. It likely transcended the borders of modern contemporary nation states in the region. We've already covered these points in other threads dedicated to the respective subjects.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Why does everyone separate Sudan from the Horn of AFrica Sudan is part of the Horn of AFrica
Horn of AFrica Sudan ERitrea Ethiopia Somalia Djbouti
Every Map u see of the Horn of AFric includes Sudan even Sudan.net and even the Sudanese government ran television Al-Sudani places Sudan as part of the Horn of Africa.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Do you know why it's called Horn of Africa? The name horn of Africa refers to the geographical shape. Sudan is north-eastern Africa and not the horn!!!!!!
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I've also thought about this, sometimes in some maps i see sudan belonging to horn of africa, like this one below, and sometimes not I onced raised this issue with a sudanese on another forum and he personally didn't consider sudan to be part of the horn, thereafter i also didn't consider sudan as part of the horn of africa.
quote:The name horn of Africa refers to the geographical shape.
in that case eritrea shouldn't be part of the horn either, in fact only somalia lies on the geoghraphical horn shape, not even Djibouti.
btw nice pic on the diversity of the horn of africa. Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: I've also thought about this, sometimes in some maps i see sudan belonging to horn of africa,
Actually the horn will more often include Northern Kenya than Sudan:
However most typically it references...
Probably Sudan is not included because it is separated by geography - Ethiopian Highlands - Nile Valley - from Somalia proper. In constrast the distinction between Kenya and Somalia is primarily political and not due to signficant geographical features.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Wow, I didn't know that one picture I posted of the Egyptian woman I posted could stir things up...
Then again, this is Egyptsearch!
Here are some pictures of elite people from dynastic Egypt who share the same features as that woman. (ps. some of these people are from as far north as northern Egypt):
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sudan is part of the Horn of Africa even the Sudanese government ran media outlets say Sudan is part of the Horn of Africa.
I have seen many maps showing Sudan as part of the Horn of Africa.
U tell me why all these websites have Sudan as Part of the Horn of AFrica. Even the sudantribune says Sudan is the Horn of AFrica should i believe u all or should i believe the Sudanese Government.
posted
Rationally and geographically, the nation state of Sudan doesn't lie in the African Horn. "Clearly" a portion of Ethiopia and Somalia lie in that "horn" structure, and to a lesser extent, Djibouti and Kenya [if not the northern portions of Kenya].
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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If we are talking about geoghraphy then Eritrea should definetly not be part of "the horn of africa", and Ethiopia could be but its landlocked, i think "horn of africa" is more a political thing, coz otherwise somalia is the only (by geographic defenition) real horn of African country.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: If we are talking about geoghraphy then Eritrea should definetly not be part of "the horn of africa", and Ethiopia could be but its landlocked, i think "horn of africa" is more a political thing, coz otherwise somalia is the only (by geographic defenition) real horn of African country.
It depends on how big or small you want to make the horn. You could just make it the little tip of the peninsula, in which case it wouldn't even incorporate all of Somalia, or you could refer to the whole big portion of land jutting out from Africa, which would include Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, and parts of Kenya, but not really much of Sudan. It's become a more sociocultural as well as geographic reference, however, which is why N. Kenya and Sudan are sometimes included.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Hey Djehuti, isn't there one picture, a Greek pottery painting or something, that shows Odyseeus or some other greek hero fighting Lower Egyptians, who are represented with typical "negro" features? get back to me..
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: ...U tell me why all these websites have Sudan as Part of the Horn of AFrica. Even the sudantribune says Sudan is the Horn of AFrica should i believe u all or should i believe the Sudanese Government.
You tell us why you choose to believe in a government that would do this, then us:
In a two-part editorial on Sudan today, the Washington Post said the cease-fire in Darfur "has not been honored" and that the government "is attempting to conceal mass graves, collecting bodies from the sites of known atrocities and hiding them elsewhere" so that U.N. investigators will not see evidence of atrocities (Washington Post, April 26).Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Hey Djehuti, isn't there one picture, a Greek pottery painting or something, that shows Odyseeus or some other greek hero fighting Lower Egyptians, who are represented with typical "negro" features? get back to me..
Yes, actually the pottery you are referring to depicts Heracles (Hercules) fighting and killing an Egyptian king named 'Busiris' and his priests. Practically all Greek depictions of Egyptians show them to stereotypically have broad features-- noses and lips, as well as curly hair or bald, and circumcised penises in the case of men.
You can see more Greco-Roman depictions of ancient North Africans here. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Can we consider Eritrea Sudan Ethiopia Somalia and Djbouti as NorthEast AFricans then since the Horn of Africa then has been distorted from your point of view. Another thing alot of Modern Day Sudans borders are not at all correct for instance alot of the portion of Eastern Sudan really is part of Eritrea like Kassala, Homesh Koreb,Hasheba,Tenedba even by the names u can tell there Eritrean towns.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Well i have lived in Kassala & Homesh Koreb for many years and the population is completely Eritreans from Tigre Beni Amir Beja Raishaida Tigrinia & Bilen Homesh Koreb is the strong hold of the Beja/Beni Amir. Not that far from HOmesh Koreb Tenedba is completely eritreans with the exception of a few Sudani Arab tribes. Alot of the borders of AFrica were demarcated with Error.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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and this is tutankhamun. i knew henock the musician when he was younger i and at the time swear he looked like old king tuts they could be twins. anyways, i do believe that the horn of africa has a cushosemetic branch of the black family to which the original egyptians probably belonged to. There is such diversity. to southern egypt, ethiopia, somalia, eritrea, sudan, djibouti, and northern kenya i would add western yemen. i guess they would constitute one group of some degree of variance to which ancient egyptians would probably belong.
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-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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^^Of course most Egyptian art was ideal, but then again so was all ancient art, especially the Greeks!
Does this mean that Greek people did not share the same features as their 'Classical' sculpture??
quote:Originally posted by Africa: it is common among some African groups to think that someone who has calf eyes(big eyes) and doesn't have a brachycephalic face is beautiful (I guess Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz would be out), I believe Egyptians and Ethiopians emphasize that in their art as well...
That's strange considering that I've seen just as much artwork showing the opposite features. (btw, what is meant by "brachycephalic" face, since brachycephalic is in reference to the dome of the skull? )
Also, most Egyptian art shows people with almond eyes (both large and almond eyes are common among Africans)
Also, the famous golden death mask may look somewhat different from his authentic bust due to color. The overall golden color of the mask as well as the khol outline of the eyes give Tut a somewhat different appearance from his true brown appearance without eye-makeup...
quote: I mean Upper Egyptian and Beja are the people who look the closest to AE, but they don't look as beautiful as the Egyptians depicted in mural paintings.
Well how many Upper Egyptians and Beja have you seen??
I have seen plenty that share at least one or two of the same features from ideal artwork. A few with all the features.
Some with the "calf-eyes" you speak of while others with the common almond shaped eyes.
Here is an Oromo girl who bears a striking resemblance to girls in Egyptian art:
posted
^^That girl isn't Oromo, she's "Amhara" (a native Amharic speaker), I believe. I've seen her labeled as Tigray as well, but her hairstyle (you can see it well in the non-cropped picture) isn't the Tigray kind.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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^Thanks for the info Yom. I got the picture from Wally's site where she is labeled as 'Oromo'.
But anway my main point was to show that (again) Africa is wrong and that while Egyptian art was indeed ideal it was not limited to one set of features alone.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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well, regardless, simply put why argue the obvious....their hyroglyphs and statues resemble the peoples of north east africa as they are today. why would they misrepresent themesleves? is the world so friggin starved for racial glory that they will not concede even to the obvious? Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2006
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^LOL Brook, you got those pictures from the book Tutankhamun and His Treasures! I scanned the same pictures from that book.
But you are correct, that the people who continue to deny what Tut and his people really looked liked and try to come up with nonense like this...
^which even then at best only ends up looking 'mixed' has serious issues. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^As far as "Children of Egypt" goes, the Fellahin Saeedi should be at the top of the list because they are the direct descendants of Pharaonic Egypt with the least admixture. Although believe it or not there are Fellahin Baladi (northern/Delta) who are not that affected by foreign mixture also and still retain their African looks. So really Fellahin in general should be number 1, followed by the Beja who closer in relation and speak an Afrasian language closest to Egyptian, followed by the Nubians who have shared the Nile Valley.
The others I would not consider 'Children of Egypt' since they are all from the Horn but more like 'Brothers of Egypt'.
That picture of Nefertiti you have posted here is a forgery. Nefertiti did not look like that. But where are the moderators here to reject such forgeries in a supposedly respectable site.
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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Souther Egypt Northern Sudan Djibouti Eritrea Ethiopia Northern and Central Somalia Western Yemen These are the Hametic peoples of Old Punt who probably expanded over time to become Old Egypt, Kush, Put, Nubia, Aksum, Meroe, and Sabea. I truly believe that we were once a single nation that, overtime, split into many groups.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2006
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That picture of Nefertiti you have posted here is a forgery. Nefertiti did not look like that. But where are the moderators here to reject such forgeries in a supposedly respectable site.
It is called 'facial reconstruction'; its developers never claimed it to be a 'relic'. So, your use of the term 'forgery' must be misplaced.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^LOL Brook, you got those pictures from the book Tutankhamun and His Treasures! I scanned the same pictures from that book.
But you are correct, that the people who continue to deny what Tut and his people really looked liked and try to come up with nonense like this...
^which even then at best only ends up looking 'mixed' has serious issues.
Actually it ends up looking like the sculptor who made it. I have seen a photo of the French sculptor working on the piece and you can see more of HER in the bust than King Tut.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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That picture of Nefertiti you have posted here is a forgery. Nefertiti did not look like that. But where are the moderators here to reject such forgeries in a supposedly respectable site.
No! That picture of Nefertiti above is a modern reconstruction created by scientists from the mummy believed to be Nefertiti. They aren't sure if the mummy is really her, but certain features do seem consistent with her ancient depictions which are varied and not just the famous bust that you only know of.
Other depictions of Nefertiti:
Moving on...
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Actually it (the Tut reconstruction) ends up looking like the sculptor who made it. I have seen a photo of the French sculptor working on the piece and you can see more of HER in the bust than King Tut.
And can be explained in the situation that happened to the African computer genius Emeagwali:
Twelve years ago, a magazine hired a white man to prepare an illustration of a supercomputer wizard riding an ox. I was supposed to be the supercomputer wizard. But the white illustrator, who knew that I am black, portrayed me as a white person in his published illustration.
I learned that the white illustrator was searching for himself in me.
The first draft of a portrait that depicted Emeagwali as a supercomputer wizard driving a carriage powered by thousands of chickens (a metaphor for his 65,000 weak processors that performed the world's fastest computation). The "Negro Emeagwali" (shown in this illustration) was rejected and replaced with a "Caucasian Emeagwali" (shown below).
A pity people can be blinded by their biases to the point of delusions.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^LOL. The lips in the reconstruction look about the same size as her depictions to me.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, Read my post again...and then come back. The main point of my post is to emphasize the idea of art and certain physical traits that are admired and idealised in certain African societies including AE. But in reality things are different. As an example, on the street most people don't look like top models in America. That's my point, there are good chances that in paintings and other art forms Tut physical appearance is exaggerated, to conform to indigenous beauty standards. It's the same in many other cultures.
posted
^You're joking right? The Japanese reconstruction looks less black than that Ethiopian guy Henock! LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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First off, the fallacy of racial typology has already been explained ad-nasium in this forum as it is...
But to repeat the racial typology of Marc Washington of all people is just too ridiculous.
Egyptians can range from looking like that Kushite man to somewhat lighter appearance and have nothing to do with Maasai or that guy with the dreads. And Assyrians did NOT look like Europeans let alone George Bush!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^Yeah, hilarious Marc Washington's picture of Syrians who look like George Bush. LMAOPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In the Islamic world, many Syrians would be considered "white". I am not necessarily saying that they are white, I am just saying that it isn't necessarily wrong to have George Bush as a modern represenation of ancient Syria.......but then again there were Black people in the ancient Syrian past, just like today........nothing new under the sun....lol. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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Interesting. What are you going by, to suggest that 'George Bush' could be a 'modern' representation of 'ancient Syrians'? Could 'modern' Syrians be representation of 'ancient Syrian' populations?
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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^Indeed, last time I checked not even modern (supposedly lighter) Syrians look like George Bush, let alone those depicted in ancient murals. Although the Indo-European speaking Mitanni were portrayed as white. Even so, these were not Syrians.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I kinda don't like this topic. But nonetheless.......
A friend of mine years back was Syrian. I couldn't help but think that if this dude wasn't Arab that he would be considered the same as any other white American...........
He claimed to be a descendent of Muhammad. Yet, one day he tried to claim he was white, and I told him that he wasn't white, that he was Semitic...........
I wouldn't say he was white, but in the Arabian context, he definitely would be. But I have another Arab friend who is almost the same(almost white looking) like my Syrian friend. But her father is a brown-colored Palestianian...........
What am I trying to say???...........Well, according to Diop, in Ramessess III depiction of the various races, one of them was Indo-European. If so, then Bush would qualify to represent that light-skinned person, know what I mean? If that artistic depiction was Syrian, well, there probably are some people of Indo-European descent in Syria(just like in India). Hence, I am not against the equivalency of George Bush in comparison to the Indo-European above, even if it is Syrian......
BTW, there were, and are Syrians who are Black, just as the original populations of India are Black...........feel me? Salaam
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No! That picture of Nefertiti above is a modern reconstruction created by scientists from the mummy believed to be Nefertiti. They aren't sure if the mummy is really her, but certain features do seem consistent with her ancient depictions which are varied and not just the famous bust that you only know of. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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