quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So what? A zillion countries have black soil. The issue isn't soil. The issue is people.
quote: The fertile dark colored PEOPLE of the Nile Valley pictured above played a vital role in the development of Dynastic Egypt.)
A full four years later and all written here still hasn't sunk in and you still dialectically hold to KM.t[nwt] refering to Nile silt enriched soil.
Please follow the link to the The Soil Project thread and refresh yourself or provide mdw ntjr evidence of Kmtyw themselfs linking KM.t to soil.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: There are some people who question whether there was any black land at all in Egypt, but I have seen actual photos and video footage of the Nile's fresh alluvial silt on the banks that give a black color.
Here is a pic of deposits after Sudanese Nile flooding.
^ the later picture of the silt saturated nile is also funny - since the resultant "reddish-brown" color is similar to the skin tone often found in egyptian paintings.
Eurocentric contradiction number 2898768973:
-> silt of a given colour can be 'black', but skin of the same colour can only be 'reddish brown', at least when depicting Ancient Egyptians.
[reddish brown - a european color-term that, *unlike black*, has no basis in the Kemetian primary text, and as reference to the Kemetian - ie "Black" people of ancient egypt.] Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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So.. we have women and goddesses being painted like the color of the lights in the deity Nwt who was represented by the night sky and men being painted brown like that in the brown and green deity Geb. My observation is that Nwt represented the abstract and Geb the "reality".
The brown in Geb could have represented a solid but rigid grounding somewhere and the green, the growth that comes out of it.
The stars in Nwt obviously represent light or knowledge or ways to help growt occur, and the blue could represent the "openess" and unrestrained freedom of ideas.
In African culture it's not anything rare and probably not anything new to see women being seen as our helpful guides.
posted
Also, black seemed to have mainly represented thouroughness and endowment.
Ausar, Auset, and Heru are all Kemetic gods.
Nehhesu - aka Southerners - when painted in uniform are often painted very near black.
I think, that although Romou - aka the A.E. - probably thought of all Kemu - aka blacks - as being the epitome of human beings, they might have thought of groups to the South as unbending or unyielding to progress while still being all too capable. Progressive, but too confortable, their progress to near kem, completion, perfection, termination.
Meanwhile red, the color representing limitations to the AE was seen as too limited, incapable and unworthy of acheiving a certain level of greatness. Really, the red complements the green, black just complements the white. Destruction makes way for new generation. Growth makes way for destruction.
posted
The Yellow color of women represents the sky, ie Nut. The male color of the men symbolizes the earth, ie Geb. It is a reflection of Egyptian cosmology that all of the universe is based around the principles of binary opposites: up and down, male and female, light and dark, left and right, front and back, heat and cold, dry and wet, day and night and so forth and so on. This view is the basis of understanding alchemy nature of change in the universe as an unending process.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^ I thought the yellow color symbolized gold and the sun. The goddess Het-her (Hathor) was known by the epithet 'the Golden Lady' and Egyptian women in general were given the epithet 'Daughters of Het-her' the same way Egyptian men were called 'Sons of Heru (Horus)'.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I thought the yellow color symbolized gold and the sun. The goddess Het-her (Hathor) was known by the epithet 'the Golden Lady' and Egyptian women in general were given the epithet 'Daughters of Het-her' the same way Egyptian men were called 'Sons of Heru (Horus)'.
It represents the same dichotomy: Male/Female, Sky/Earth, Penis/Vagina, seed/womb and so forth. Hathor was a symbol of the milky way as mother nature and the queen of heaven, which is a form of association with Nut.
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posted
Has anyone here encountered this ancient Egyptian poem before?
quote:She is one girl, there is no one like her. She is more beautiful than any other. Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist. Her thighs offer her beauty, with a brisk step she treads on ground. She has captured my heart in her embrace. She makes all men turn their necks to look at her. One looks at her passing by, this one, the unique one.
Anyone have a theory as to the meaning of "white" here?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Maybe they meant something like high yella^^??
I remember reading a book I forgot which,about a gang on trial for tomb robbing.the police or the court records read something like this,ring leader insert name....dark-complexion straight nosed,robber#2 name...sallow-complexion flat nosed,robber#3 name....sallow-complexion straight nosed robber#3 dark-complexion flat nosed,and so on.
It was sometime ago and I can't remember the book title nor the author but I will risk saying it was Margret a Murrey?? anyways the description reminds me of the Central Park wilding case when a group of Blacks and Hispanics were charged for allegedly going on a rampage in Central Park where a woman got raped. The news casters used very similar descripitions of the gang.Lite-skinned blacks or hispanics,dark complexion another as lite-skinned plus various police sketches,that showed their features.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Has anyone here encountered this ancient Egyptian poem before?
quote:She is one girl, there is no one like her. She is more beautiful than any other. Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist. Her thighs offer her beauty, with a brisk step she treads on ground. She has captured my heart in her embrace. She makes all men turn their necks to look at her. One looks at her passing by, this one, the unique one.
Anyone have a theory as to the meaning of "white" here?
Sounds more allegorical than literal.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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In which case, one might want to read into the poem with caution; I would make sure I knew how the poem looked in ancient Egyptian first, and then, analyze how this was translated. Keep in mind, as a possible first indicator, that in ancient Egyptian ethnonym lexicon, there was no such thing as "white people" -- at least not to my knowledge, until otherwise demonstrated.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ I believe the anthropologist Peter Frost once pointed out that the Ibo of Nigeria sometimes describe lighter-skinned individuals within their own ethnic group as "white". Maybe the Egyptians, if they indeed used "white", meant it in the same sense.
BTW, I've come upon other translations of that poem that use "shining" instead of "white".
^ I believe the anthropologist Peter Frost once pointed out that the Ibo of Nigeria sometimes describe lighter-skinned individuals within their own ethnic group as "white". Maybe the Egyptians, if they indeed used "white", meant it in the same sense.
I know about the "red-black" dichotomy in some African societies, as I have come across in Mdu Ntr. If the ancient Egyptians indeed used "white" as an ethnonym, I'd like to see supporting material for this; until then, I'd take the idea with a healthy dose of skepticism.
quote: BTW, I've come upon other translations of that poem that use "shining" instead of "white".
Hence, the importance of my last advice.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Like I said, the poem is full of symbolic color references. It is not meant to be literal. What woman has hair the color of lapis lazuli? The white color seems to be a reference to being like a star.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: BTW, I've come upon other translations of that poem that use "shining" instead of "white".
Which indeed then wouldn't be anything special for ancient Kemetians or anyone to have said.
The word for white in AE is "hedj". Same for silver which shines. It had a positive connotation.
And indeed many people have words for red, yellow or even white complected even though they only get as light as me for the most part (think Will Smith).
However, as Supercar notes there were no "white people" ethnonymically and who knows what being "hedj" could entail here.
I never blindly trust the translations though because translators will translate "nefer" meaning "beautiful" to "fair" and this could become "light" or "white".
Here's another topic for your poetry, in which i think your query may have already been answered:
Also i think rasol may have already posted that exact poem or one similar and then posted the ancient egyptian with the word "nefer" which can mean "young" "good" "beautiful" etc.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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So.. we have women and goddesses being painted like the color of the lights in the deity Nwt who was represented by the night sky and men being painted brown like that in the brown and green deity Geb. My observation is that Nwt represented the abstract and Geb the "reality".
The brown in Geb could have represented a solid but rigid grounding somewhere and the green, the growth that comes out of it.
The stars in Nwt obviously represent light or knowledge or ways to help growt occur, and the blue could represent the "openess" and unrestrained freedom of ideas.
In African culture it's not anything rare and probably not anything new to see women being seen as our helpful guides.
Nwt stretches around and surrounds the earth aka Geb in a way that portrays metaphorically how there are many perspectives from which to view the one actuality (let alone the many senses lifeforms/organisms can possibly have).
When the deities were united in copulation non-stop the world was in chaos because anything could go from possibility/idea to actuality and back.
quote:Nut was thought to draw the dead into her star-filled sky, and refresh them with food and wine: “I am Nut, and I have come so that I may enfold and protect you from all things evil.”
From wiki, and i've read something similar about Geb for the people who died awaiting judgement or afterlife or something.
I think the real thing the male and female aspects portray is unity -- Atum and Nu(n) from which everthing came were united.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Has anyone here encountered this ancient Egyptian poem before?
quote:She is one girl, there is no one like her. She is more beautiful than any other. Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist. Her thighs offer her beauty, with a brisk step she treads on ground. She has captured my heart in her embrace. She makes all men turn their necks to look at her. One looks at her passing by, this one, the unique one.
Anyone have a theory as to the meaning of "white" here?
Before we can deduce anything we first need the original Mdu-Neter!
Remember, how some poems have translated the word 'nefer' to mean 'fair' which Eurocentrics assume its definition of 'pale' or 'white' instead of beautiful!
Whatbox is correct though that the word for 'white' is hedj which also means silver and is a common epithet for ivory or the moon.
But we need an exact Egyptian script of the poem.
Btw, I notice the reference to "heavy buttocks" is obviously steatopygia. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by nomorelies: You forgot to mention that they also used the color white for death, except in the case of Ausar (Osiris).
Thank you for pointing this out because this is an important factor when reviewing their (Egyptians) positions on energy and colour associations.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
The poem mentioned was written for Hathor. According to Adolf Erman's Ancient Egyptian Literature.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think more people need to sit at the feet of African sages in various different wisdom centers across the continent to ascertain a deeper meaning of African color symbolism and stop relying on uninitiated Africanists scholars.
For instance, in Ifa, when we say Odudua, for those who understand the liturgical language, we mean "The one of Black Character." Is the "god's" physical make-up Black? No. It is actually a term that represents "invisibility." Black is the only color one can get a deep understanding of having no "concepts," of being "hidden," a source that is incomprehensible.
When you say Obatala, it is more than a "white cloth," it literally means "Owner/king - stone - white light." It breaks down into
Oba = king Ota = stone le/re = white light
In Yoruba cosmology, just like the ancient egyptian, the universe in the beginning was a solid "stone" (benben). It is through "light" that all things are created, and it derives from the "black stone" which is the universe.
Astrophysics confirms these "religious concepts" and it would benefit those reading to start looking in the area of science for a better understanding of liturgical concepts. The ancients, nor the present sages, are caught up in human beings skin color.
It's deeper than you think...
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ The Egyptians too had symbolic colors and there were 6 of them:
black (kem): the color of the ultimate, the divine, regeneration and renewal, it was associated with a myriad if not all gods.
blue (irtiu): the color of the sky, of invisibility and omnipotence hence it was associated with Amun.
gold or yellow (kenit): the color of the sun of the divine skin or cloth of the gods, it is associated with Het-her (Hathor) who is called the 'Golden Lady' and Egyptian women were traditionally painted yellow perhaps in association with their epithet as "daughters of Hathor".
green (wadj): the color of vegetation and fertile land, it was associated with Ausar (Osiris) who was an agricultural god.
white/ivory (hedj): symbolized purity and is associated with the moon and lunar deities like Ayah or Djehuti.
red (desher): the color of the desert, of blood, and of calamity or wickedness, it was associated with the foreigners and the god Set.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Out of curisoity,DougM,from what source did you get tomb coloring in ancient Egypt being symbolic and connected to ancient Egyptian deities?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: "if not all Gods" It either was or it wasn't ????
Well we know that all the primary deities were depicted in black from Ausar and Aset to Anupu (Anubis), Heru etc. We know that human royals who were deified further if not already were depicted as black such as the great royal ladies like Aahotep and Ahmose Nefertari of the 18th dynasty. Thus it can be assumed that black as is associated with divinity itself can symbolize ALL gods!
We know how much that hurts you, Pat but live with it. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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