Wow - I must really still be brainwashed as i didn't know they had American looking housing developments in Egypt. I appreciate the info but would also like to stay on topic.
Nevertheless, I'll forward your info to my ex-husband in real estate in New York City and considering moving back to Kabylia and Algiers.
Good luck! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "ETHIOPIANS" OF COASTAL NORTH AFRICA SPREAD TO DARIS MENTIONED BY STRABO AND EUPHORAS, i.e. Mauri?
A 19th c. reference to the Aulimmeden (Lamtuna/Lamta/Kelowi Tuareg groups) of Niger:
1896 - "The name of Aurighia is indeed given to one of the principal dialects of the Tamashek language, and from the Aouragh Ibn Khaldun, traces the great Berber divisions of Sanhadja and Lamta. This powerful race anciently inhabited the sea coast, and may have given their name to the country around Carthage... Nachtigal tells us that the Kelowi of Air...belong at least so far as the noble part of them is concerned to the Auragha and hence their dialect is called Auraghey even at the present day. In the days of Abu-Obeid el Bekri(Description de L'Afrique Septentrionale, ed. Slane, pp. 13,44) the Auraghas inhabited the shores of the Gulf of Syrtis and the districts of Kabes and Barca." found in Vol 1, The History and Description of Africa: And the Notable Things Therein Contained - authored by Leo Africanus Published by the Hakluyt Society of London, translation by John Pory, 1896, p. 193.
Of course, the Tuareg if we are to believe African manuscripts of Bornu mixed "with Turks and Tartars" among other peoples, before settling in Sahel.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
1899 - "...the men were very black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the most ugly and the blackest that were ever seen...there were witches among them who looked into people's hands and told what had happened to them..." from Gypsy Folk Tales by Francis Hindes Groome, first published in 1899.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another account of early Gypsies before they mixed with with Spaniards
1888 - "They likewise call themselves 'Cales,' by which appellation indeed they are tolerably well known by the Spaniards, and which is merely the plural termination of the compound word Zincalo, and signifies, the black men... On the 17th of April 1427, appeared in Paris 12 penitents of Egypt, driven from thence by the Saracens; they brought in their company one hundred and twenty persons…They had their ears pierced their hair was black and crispy, and their women … were sorceresses who told fortunes. Such were the people who, after traversing France and scaling the sides of the Pyrenees, poured down in various bands upon the sunburnt plains of Spain.”
From - The Zincali- An Account of the Gypsies of Spain by George Borrow, Scribner and Welford, 1888, p. 30.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1840 - “She was living with Lillas Pastia, an old fried- fish seller, a gipsy, as black as a Moor, to whose house a great many civilians resorted to eat fritata, especially, I think, because Carmen had taken up her quarters there.” from Prosper Merimee's, Carmen.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
14th century account of "Gypsies" in Germany
1497 - "we went to the outskirts where dwell many poor black naked people in little houses roofed with reeds some three hundred households, they are called Gypsies [Suyginer]: we call them heathens from Egypt when they travel in these lands." Cited in and quoted directly from, The Gypsies by Angus Fraser, 1995.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
So a person who was living in 1840 was commenting on how black a Moor was even though Moors of all colors were run out of the country in 1482. Must have been a very old person. Dana, this kind of stuff is worthless and proves nothing. YOu need to take a graduate history class and learn how to use research.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ugh - - Hammer can you for once make a comment worth responding to, instead of trying to wish away all of the black and crispy haired people that ever lived in Europe who were defined as Moors at one time or another.
First of all my history classes in graduate school prepared me to write and think fine and logically - which is more than can I can say for you.
Second of all. How did a "Moorish Gypsy" in James Micheners book, IBERIA, wind up in a photo black as a sub-Saharan if these people never existed.
Like I said previously Eurocentrics can not wish away what was.
Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Finally, I'm not "using research" on this blog just citing 19th century references to black people.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
No you did not. I do not believe it. You cut and paste quotes with no context and no opposing views. You could not pass a graduate course at Angelo State with that kind of historical research.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: No you did not. I do not believe it. You cut and paste quotes with no context and no opposing views. You could not pass a graduate course at Angelo State with that kind of historical research.
What am I suppose to oppose Hammer. What historical research are you talking about. You see how you project yourself onto others. Isn't that up to you to analyse what they are saying since that is your need - or don't people with history certificates do that.
Hammer I think you need to get a life and a lot more than a certificate. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
well Dana. If nothing else you have to show context. For example, your view on Ancient Greek historians is way off of the position accepted by today's classical scholars. If you use those quotes then you need to show us why 100% of current classical greek scholars are wrong and you are right. It seems to me that you are doing the very same thing the guys here on the board do. You have a preconcieved position and then look for anything you can find to back it up. Lawyers do that, politicans do it, historians do not.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: well Dana. If nothing else you have to show context. For example, your view on Ancient Greek historians is way off of the position accepted by today's classical scholars. If you use those quotes then you need to show us why 100% of current classical greek scholars are wrong and you are right. It seems to me that you are doing the very same thing the guys here on the board do. You have a preconcieved position and then look for anything you can find to back it up. Lawyers do that, politicans do it, historians do not.
When you show me you can read in context Hammer maybe I'll think about presenting a view about ancient Greek scholars. Until then, which I think won't be anytime soon I guess, I'll have to say again say something that I can respond to and STOP PROJECTING!
Gosh - ur making me think there really was something to the work of Frances Cress Welsing or whatever her name is. I'm sure you know more about her than I do - like you do about "Dr. Ben".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hammer aka TAP aka Professor Troll or whatever you call yourself now, can you just pipe down you illiterate, uneducated twat! Grown folk are discussing matters that are clearly beyond your comprehension. There has not been one subject that you have EVER contributed qualitatively to, so the evidence suggests that you are just a serial troll with no other purpose to disrupt. Moderators, surely you can block or ban this buffoon!
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
posted
Narmer, You are obviously a kid with no understanding. The only stupid thing that I do is stay on this forum and argue with a group of black radical nit wits. Now, you will either follow my advice and have some input into the academic world or you will not and have none, it is as simple as that.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
The process of learning and understanding the background and growth of a chosen field of study or profession can offer insight into organizational culture, current trends, and future possibilities. The historical method of research applies to all fields of study because it encompasses their: origins, growth, theories, personalities, crisis, etc. Both quantitative and qualitative variables can be used in the collection of historical information. Once the decision is made to conduct historical research, there are steps that should be followed to achieve a reliable result. Charles Busha and Stephen Harter detail six steps for conducting historical research (91):
the recognition of a historical problem or the identification of a need for certain historical knowledge. the gathering of as much relevant information about the problem or topic as possible. if appropriate, the forming of hypothesis that tentatively explain relationships between historical factors. The rigorous collection and organization of evidence, and the verification of the authenticity and veracity of information and its sources. The selection, organization, and analysis of the most pertinent collected evidence, and the drawing of conclusions; and the recording of conclusions in a meaningful narrative. In the field of library and information science, there are a vast array of topics that may be considered for conducting historical research. For example, a researcher may chose to answer questions about the development of school, academic or public libraries, the rise of technology and the benefits/ problems it brings, the development of preservation methods, famous personalities in the field, library statistics, or geographical demographics and how they effect library distribution. Harter and Busha define library history as “the systematic recounting of past events pertaining to the establishment, maintenance, and utilization of systematically arranged collections of recorded information or knowledge….A biography of a person who has in some way affected the development of libraries, library science, or librarianship is also considered to be library history. (93)”
There are a variety of places to obtain historical information. Primary Sources are the most sought after in historical research. Primary resources are first hand accounts of information. “Finding and assessing primary historical data is an exercise in detective work. It involves logic, intuition, persistence, and common sense…(Tuchman, Gaye in Strategies of Qualitative Inquiry, 252). Some examples of primary documents are: personal diaries, eyewitness accounts of events, and oral histories. “Secondary sources of information are records or accounts prepared by someone other than the person, or persons, who participated in or observed an event.” Secondary resources can be very useful in giving a researcher a grasp on a subject and may provided extensive bibliographic information for delving further into a research topic.
In any type of historical research, there are issues to consider. Harter and Busha list three principles to consider when conducting historical research (99-100):
Consider the slant or biases of the information you are working with and the ones possessed by the historians themselves. This is particularly true of qualitative research. Consider an example provided by Gaye Tuchman: Let us assume that women’s letters and diaries are pertinent to ones research question and that one can locate pertinent examples. One cannot simply read them….one must read enough examples to infer the norms of what could be written and how it could be expressed. For instance, in the early nineteenth century, some (primarily female) schoolteachers instructed girls in journal writing and read their journals to do so. How would such instruction have influenced the journals kept by these girls as adults?…it is useful to view the nineteenth-century journal writer as an informant. Just as one tries to understand how a contemporary informant speaks from specific social location, so too one would want to establish the social location of the historical figure. One might ask of these and other diaries: What is the characteristic of middle-class female diary writers? What is the characteristic of this informant? How should one view what this informant writes?
b. Quantitative facts may also be biased in the types of statistical data collected or in how that information was interpreted by the researcher.
There are many factors that can contribute to “historical episodes”. Evidence should not be examined from a singular point of view. The resources that follow this brief introduction to the historical method in research provide resources for further in-depth explanations about this research method in various fields of study, and abstracts of studies conducted using this method.
Sources Cited: 1. Busha, Charles and Stephen P. Harter. Research Methods in Librarianship: techniques and Interpretations. Academic Press: New York, NY, 1980.
2. Denzin, Norman K. and Yvonna S. Lincoln (editors). Strategies of Qualitative Inquiry. Sage Publications: London, 1998.
top | home Links: Studies: http://www.ucr.edu/methods/ “Historical Methods reaches an international audience of historians and other social scientists concerned with historical problems. It explores interdisciplinary approaches to new data sources, new approaches to older questions and material, and practical discussions of computer and statistical methodology, data collection, and sampling procedures. In addition to its long-time interest in quantitative approaches to historical questions, Historical Methods also emphasizes a variety of other issues, such as methods for interpreting visual information and the rhetoric of social scientific history.” This website gives bibliographic information and abstracts to historical research included in the journals. Currently the most recent journal entries are from 1998. http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis/kn/lac/v32n0297.htm
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Hammer aka TAP aka Professor Troll or whatever you call yourself now, can you just pipe down you illiterate, uneducated twat! Grown folk are discussing matters that are clearly beyond your comprehension. There has not been one subject that you have EVER contributed qualitatively to, so the evidence suggests that you are just a serial troll with no other purpose to disrupt. Moderators, surely you can block or ban this buffoon!
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
Narmer - I had before questioned what people on this blog had said about this Texan, but now I think he is more than worthy of what you all have been saying. I need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Do you know that I invited him on this blog and this guy actually went and quoted virtually an entire web-page from a University of Texas page quoting directly from the director of the Jamaican Economic Institute, one of our (as Hammer calls us)"Negroid" kind, without citing him.
Peter W. Jones is a Jamaican scholar who wrote -The Dialects of Jamaican Economic Thought: Postmodernists vs. Modernists
If anyone puts in the paragraph below WITHOUT QUOTES which Hammer cut and pasted onto this page WITHOUT QUOTES he will find where the original quote came from.
"In the field of library and information science, there are a vast array of topics that may be considered for conducting historical research. For example, a researcher may chose to answer questions about the development of school, academic or public libraries, the rise of technology and the benefits/ problems it "
Hammer were you trying to make us think you were a thinker or history teacher and not a criminal who should be fined or worse.
If so, this is not the not the way to do it. And this time it is no laughing matter - especially if you really are a TEACHER here in the U.S.!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Which you have neither the wherewithal nor the integrity to contribute to!
Pretender - Do not quote us "Negroids" without giving credit where credit is due as you did above or I will send what you have done directly to them and have you banned from academics for life.
Also, please take a "White Studies" course now being offered in Teacher Education programs here in the U.S. for "white" people who don't know how to deal with the Other. Seriously!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
And - in case you hadn't noticed Hammer or criminal or troll or whatever you are. I wasn't trying to make a point about "Greek history". Most of us on this blog are not interested in "Greek history", just our history and why its been "whitewashed".
Now that I have learned you are wasting space and are perhaps even some kind of sociopath who didn't graduate high school I will not be spending time responding to you as I don't have a psychotherapy license or training to deal with your type.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
"I have finally lost my mind."?! No - but I am definitely going to lose it dealing with someone who is plum crazy and trying to pretend they are the "professorial" type.
And if you need Paul W. Jones's email to apologize about the totally plagiarized "stuff" you were right about - just let me know. I have his email address. I will also send you the address of a good therapist in Texas.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
What I do know is that anyone with an undergraduate degree in History such as the one I obtained long ago, understands that plagiarism is a serious offense. And I don't deal with criminals so - bye!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The site I posted gave you direct access to the writer. What you are doing here Dana is dodging and ducking and doing your best to resist having to do correct historical research. You are doing so because you KNOW that if proper research is done it may lead you away from the wild black radical views that you want to promote. The problem is that if you do not follow my advice nothing you believe can ever be accepted.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
ignore the fool dana, he has no credibility whatsoever, I think he's just a kid.... continue, your research is very enlightening.
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Narmer is not even creative when it comes to his insults, he has to copy the lines used by me. Dana knows exactly what I am talking about, Narmer does not.
You have a great opportunity to learn and if you refuse you can continue to suffer.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is no use of historical method here and no one is in fact giving a history lesson. Your lack of logic and reasoning ability sometimes astounds me, Hammer. That is why I know you are not a true academic.
If you want to post a site you could have posted the link, instead of pretending it was your own thoughts and not those of other individuals including those of a black scholar in Jamaica.
Most importantly you could have posted YOUR OWN thoughts for once - something you have yet to do, from what I am told by other bloggers here, since you've been on it. And I am told is a lot longer than I have been on it.
As I am "black radical" than you should have no worries in my so-called "views" getting out to the rest of the world.
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with denying the information and observations put up here that Europeans wrote and why you insist they are my views and that I need to analyze it for you.
If I was going to do a research paper I am certainly not going to put it up on some blog, nor is any individual involved in academia. I'm sure you've not been in it or at least not long enough to understand this, or you wouldn't be posting whole pages on a board without providing a link for it.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: ignore the fool dana, he has no credibility whatsoever, I think he's just a kid.... continue, your research is very enlightening.
Very glad you find this info enlightning Narmer and will be posting a lot more European observations soon. Ur right I should ignore Hammer because before he was funny and now its just getting annoying.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just complete garbage Dana. You are just upset because I properly called you out yesterday for posting outdated material, with no context and not a single view by a major modern historian.
That is OK because I think you learned something whether you admit it or not.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Narmer is not even creative when it comes to his insults, he has to copy the lines used by me. Dana knows exactly what I am talking about, Narmer does not.
You have a great opportunity to learn and if you refuse you can continue to suffer.
Speak for your paternalistic self Hammer - I actually don't have the slightest idea what ur crazy talk is about and neither do I know anymore why you are here. So if you leave again I will most certainly not be inviting you back this time.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1847 - On the bedouin inhabitants of Sinai in 1847 “upon returning to my tent I found a multitude of dark brown Arabs collected in front of it. They urged upon me that they were the true guides to Sinai, that their own domicile was upon Sinai, and that they had the most complete knowledge of every nook and corner of the desert. From Travels in the East by F. C. Tischendorf (translated from Reuse in Der Orient by W.E. Shuckard 1847 published by Longman Brown Green and Longmans? by Lobegott
1879 - On the Hamida a clan of the Harb Arabs of Hejaz “small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure” for the last 13 centuries…” Richard Francis 1879 Burton Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to el Medina and Mecca .p. 173 3rd edition William Mullen and Son
13th-14th century A.D. -“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” Quoted from Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.
13th c. Kitab al Aiman or Book of Oaths, which in Book 15, Number 4046 says “ We were sitting in the company of Abu Musa that he called for food and it consisted of flesh of fowl. It was then that a person from Banu Ta’im visited him. His complexion was red having the resemblance of a slave.”
From Sahih Bukhari (One Fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah) Volume 4, Book 53, Number 361: Narrated Zahdam: “Once we were in the house of Abu Musa who presented a meal containing cooked chicken. A man from the tribe of Bani Ta’imallah with red complexion as if he were from the Byzantine war prisoners, was present.”’
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
11th c. Iraqi Christian, Ibn Butlan on “the Berber women... as women whose "color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.” cited in Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages By Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.
In contrast Butlan also goes on to describe the Beja women of Nubia as "golden" in complexion.
The same Sanhaja women are written of as "black" (utilizing the Spanish word for blacks) and "Moorish" in the Primera Cronica General of Alfonso X, completed in the 1200s.
1982 - "The events are associated with the Almoravid siege of Valencia after the death of the Cid. Nugaymath Turquia is the leader of a band of three hundred Amazons. They are negresses, their heads were shaven leaving only a topknot..." H.T. Norris - The Berbers in Arab Literature London and New York. (This is a hair style still in use among the Tuareg.)
These writings shows the Sanhaja and other Berbers were called black by both Middle Eastern and European people.
The references to Masmuda and Ketama Berbers and to the first Berber army in Spain of Zenata stock as "blacks" or "Sudan" by Middle Eastern people are also well known.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, dana...you got your wish - to have a tete-a-tete with our resident idiot. I mean, a dead giveaway, is his use of the expression "outdated material"!
By his infantile illogic; Hamlet, Omar Khayyam, Lincoln Douglass Debates, Herodotus, Imhotep, the US Constitution, The Tale of Sinuhe, ..... - are all irelevant, because they're "old" and "outdated" ---
Like 'they' say; be careful what you wish for... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
stupid man. If you use dated material you have to provide context and you need the views of modern historians to round out your research. Wally, everytime you post you make a fool out of yourself.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Well, dana...you got your wish - to have a tete-a-tete with our resident idiot. I mean, a dead giveaway, is his use of the expression "outdated material"!
By his infantile illogic; Hamlet, Omar Khayam, Lincoln Douglass Debates, Herodotus, Imhotep, the US Constitution, The Tale of Sinuhe, ..... - are all irelevant, because they're "old" and "outdated" ---
Like 'they' say; be careful what you wish for...
Yeah Wally - but I'm glad its over. I like to give Eurocentrics the benefit of the doubt that they are just a little jealous having been so brainwashed, but it always comes as a shock when you come to realize they are really and truly deranged! I should have taken everyone's advice here. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
right, we are so brainwashed we actually require someone to source their material through specialists.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: right, we are so brainwashed we actually require someone to source their material through specialists.
Ummm... as I was quoting Europeans saying:
1809 - “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer from, An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.
2003 – “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.
4th century – Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, Published by G.P. Putnam’s sons, 1922 p. 113
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1998 - "The etymology of the word of moreno and negro seems to stem from the same root, the Latin diminutive of maurus through Mozarabic and Castillian Spanish. Today however dictionaries define negro as black and moreno as brun or brunet(te). None the less Moreno means black in Ecuador it is not used to refer to people with of lighter skin or to brunet(t)es." from Blackness in Latin America and the Caribbean, by Norman Whitten and Arlene Torres, Indiana University press. p. 85
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I actually don't have the slightest idea what ur crazy talk is about
Don't worry, no one in here ever "gets" this creepy old man. Apart from his signature mindless appeals to authority (which he hasn't even read) and his a priori bigoted assumptions, all he does is complain about the level of scholarship and what he sees as misinformation in here yet he posts in here everyday! LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your right Bogle, and learning that people giving me advice on this forum KNOW what they are talking about (when it comes to trolls) is what's comforting.
Unfortunately, being hardheaded, it took me some time to understand that.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1913 - "On page 54 of the same book Rawlinson says: The antiquity of civilization in the valley of the Nile which preceded by many centuries that even of primitive Chaldaea is another indication of the migration having been from east to west; and the monuments and traditions of the Chaldaeans themselves have been thought to present some curious indications of an east African origin. On the whole, therefore, it seems that the race designated in scripture by the hero founder Nimrod and among Greeks by the eponym of Belus, pased from east Africa by way of Arabia to the valley of the Eurphrates, shortly after the opening of the historical period." p. 512 of The African abroad, Or, His Evolution in Western Civilization, Tracing His Development Under Caucasian Milieu, Volume I by William Henry Ferris, 1913
1911 ".. a description of the bones of an early Briton of that remote epoch might apply in all esential details to an inhabitant of Somaliland... The people were longheaded of small stature, skull is long, narrow and coffin shaped, brow ridges poorly developed, forehead is narrow, vertical and often slightly bulging." pp. 65 The Ancient Egyptians Elliot Smith
1911 - "...it will be found that the geographical circumstances tend to support and corroborate that the contention put forward in the preceding paragraphs on other grounds that the kinsmen of the Mediterranean and Hamitic peoples overflowed so to speak from the Mediterranean and East African littorals into the whole peninsula of Arabia and the shores of the Persian Gulf. In other words Syria, Arabia, Mesopotamia and Sumer were parts of the original domain of the Brown Race." pp. 145-146 of The Ancient Egyptians and their Influence on the Civilization of Europe, Harper and Brothers London and New York, 1911.
1911 - "The essential identity to the early Neolithic Europeans and of the proto-Egyptians is generally admitted. The former in fact were certainly derived from the latter." G. Elliot Smith p. 27 The Ancient Egyptians recent 2007 edition.
LATER -
Ephraim Speiser was one of the first to mention in his Oriental and Biblical Studies ( published in 1967 by the University of Pennsylvania Press )the curiosity of how the familiar remains of sculptured monuments in the fertile cresent didn't seem to reflect the dominant ancient dolichocephalic (long-headed) Afro-Mediterranean population of the region, but rather round-headed prominent nosed types then called "Armenoids" by physical anthropologists.
1952 - "Examination of the skulls which have been found on several sites in Anatolia shows that in the third millennium the population was preponderantly long-headed or dolichocephalic, with only a small admixture of brachycephalic types. In the second millennium the proportion of brachycephalic skulls increases to about 50 percent."” (6) Gurney, O.R.; The Hittites, Penguin Books, 1990, First Ed. 1952 p. 284
1972 - “The population of both Upper and Lower Mesopotamia in prehistoric times belonged to the brown or Mediterranean race. While this basic stock persisted in historical, times especially in the south, it became increasingly, mixed especially with broad-headed Armenoid peoples from the northeastern mountains owing to the recurrent incursions of mountain tribes into the plain.” In William L. Langer – An Encyclopedia of World History, Houghton Mifflin Company Boston 1972 .
1987 - "The Mushabians moved into the Sinai from the Nile Delta, bring North African lithic chipping techniques... the population overflow from Northeast Africa played a definite role in the establishment of the Natufian adaptation, which in turn led to the emergence of agriculture as a new subsistence system." Pleistocene connexions between Africa and Southwest Asia: an archaeological perspective O. Bar-Yosef. African Archaeological Review. 5 (1987) Pg 29.
1993 - “the fact that so many European Neolithic groups in Figure 4 tie more closely to the Late Dynastic Egyptians near the Mediterranean coast than they do with modern Europeans provides suggestive support for an eastern Mediterranean source for the people of the European Neolithic at an even earlier time level than Bernal suggests for the Egyptian-Phoenician colonization and influence on Greece early in the second millennium BC" found in Clines and Clusters versus 'Race': A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile, Year book of Physical Anthropology, 36:1-33, 1993
2006 - “The significance of Africans in these cultures and early development of agriculture in southwest Asia and Anatolia can be seen from “African” skeletal traits and painted images both among (Mediterranean) Natufians and early farmers (at Chatal Huyuk and Nea Nikomedia).” Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Civilization Volume III, p. 52
2006 - "Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants..." from The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, C. Loring Brace, Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox,¶ A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis, and Pan Qifeng Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1): 242–247.
Surprise, surprise... but why are modern scientists surprised?
Anatomist G. Elliot Smith along with other physical anthropologists had said long ago in the early 1900s - "The populations which occupied North East AFrica to the Bab el Mandeb the whole Mediterranean littoral, the Iberian peninsula, Western France and the British Isels before the coming of copper were linked together by the closest bonds of affinity. They were certainly the offspring of one mother..." p. 67 The Ancient Egyptians 2007 Edition.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1874 "...The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries John Denison Baldwin Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
The 19th century scholars speculated the ancient Philistines and Phoenicians or Canaanites were an "Ethiopic" people. More recent scholars have connected them with "Indo-Europeans" and modern Lebanese respectively.
But, as this picture of a Phillistine of the temple of Medinet Habu (from the Ramessid period) in Egypt shows, ancient Canaanites apparently looked to ancient Egyptians more like Watusi than like Europeans.
The Philistines, a remnant of the Anakim (Bible book, Jer. xlvii. 5,) left their homeland in the Arabian land of Canaan conquered by the Israelites of the Saarat or Sara, “There were none of the Anakim left in the land of the children of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath (Ghayt), and in Ashdod (As-Shedad), did some remain.” Biblical book of Joshua 11:22
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus circa 1st c. Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The earliest chiefs of the groups called Persians and Medes called themselves by such names as Dahhak (Deiokes) and Azd Dahhak, after their ancestor also called Zohak by later historians. Their ancestors of these same people were also called Cephenians (after Kepheus husband of by Cassiopeia) the Greeks a name for Ethiopians and Phoenicians.
The legendary Dahhak was said to have ruled Mesopotamia for a 1000 years and is known as the dragon with three heads.
A soldier from the Afar tribe of Ethiopia
As recorded by Herodotus and other Greeks early groups of the Achaemenid Persians belonged to the Da'ae, Derbikes and Derusians who are the Daasa, Derbika and Therwasa of later Hindu mythology.
A soldier from the Persian (Farsians of Iran)
In early Arabian tradition Dahak is an South Arabian related to Akk and Shadad. He is sometimes called a son of King Mirdas or otherwise a son of Alwan or Walid, an Amalekite king associated with ruling Misr. He is likely associated with the name of the early South Arabian tribe of Ad Da'a in some genealogies called son of Hamdan, son of Simbar (Beshman/Ishban), son of Yathrab (Ithran), son of Yahzin a descendant of Ar'awi (Reu'el) grandson of Dayshan (Dishan) son of Aisar or Assir (Ezer).
1883 - "Zohak, say most writers came from Arabia or Ethiopia of ancient days, or even further S. W. as from the serpent lands of Africa where the Faith ever flourished, nor yet has ceased to do so..." Rivers of Life, Or Sources and Streams of the Faiths of Man in all Lands... James Forlong p. 101.
Darius "the Great", King of Persia
1969 - "Dahak with his two additional serpent heads is the same as the powerful, ravenous Dasa with his 6 eyes and 3 heads." from the Rig Veda 10.99.6 cited in Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time
The Dahae are in the Rig Vedas called black Dasas.
"Indra, who slayed Vritra and stormed towns, has destroyed the troops of the black Dasas, and has made the earth and the water for Manu." p. 121
"In X 49 Indra proclaims that he deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya (verse 6)... that he cuts the Dasas in twain - 'It is for this fate that they have been born'." p. 123 Encyclopaedia Indica: India Pakistan Bangladesh Vol 14, by Shyam Singh Shashi.
Herodotus also claimed that Scythians using Soma had adopted the name of Aryan from the original Medes and Persians. The Rig Veda is a book either fully composed or interpreted by the Scythians who adopted names and deities and even some of the stories of the original Aryans for themselves. These fair-skinned Scyths later moved into India. Centuries later in India where they settled and apparently forgetting or ignoring the fact that much of their heritage as "Aryans" had been adopted from darker skinned peoples - they created a story about the fair-skinned Scythians ovecoming tripura-building Daasas (the original people named Aryans) in Central Asia.
The tripura were fortresses with three walls which the Daae and other early Persians/Medes related people made in Central Asia and not India. Many of the things native to India were never mentioned in the Rig Veda and other great Indian epics for the simple fact that it is based on stories that deal with regions further north.
Thus, today there is great and warranted controversy over whom the true Vedic peoples were and where they came from. Scholars also try to no avail to claim that the color theme of white conquerors conquering black skinned ones is purely symbolic.
But it is safe to say that the same people who distorted the myth of Ham also distorted the early myths of the Aryas. The distorted translations of the story of Ham getting drunk upon seeing Noah and 'turning black" is closely associated with early use of Hauma (Soma) and its meaning of fermented drink and fermented black mud. The allegory is found in Hindu tradition as the story of Charma, Sharma and Dyaus Pita (Japhet).
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1835 - “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from Ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 found in Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge.
Shluh (also written Shellooh, Shil'ha or Chleuh) of Northwest Africa.
The Shluh Berbers are remnants of the Sylli of early Greek and Roman writers closely related to the Masaesylli and Masylli (also anciently written "Musulini" and "Mesallama")of ancient Numidia (ancient northern Algeria and western Tunisia). The term Sylli, Shilha, Jil and Kel among Berbers is related to an east African word meaning clan.
1854 - "...MAURI Μαυροί, “Blacks,” in the Alexandrian dialect, Paus. i, 33 § 5, 8.43. [2.297] § 3; Sal. Jug. 19; Pomp. Mela, 1.4.3; Liv. 21.22, 28.17; Hor. Carm. 1.22. 2, 2.6. 3, 3.10. 18; Tac. Ann. 2.52, 4.523, 14.28, Hist. 1.78, 2.58, 4.50; Lucan 4.678; Juv. 5.53, 6.337; Flor. 3.1, 4.2); hence the name MAURETANIA...These Moors, who must not be considered as a different race from the Numidians, but as a tribe belonging to the same stock, were represented by Sallust (Sal. Jug. 21) as a remnant of the army of Hercules, and by Procopius (B. V. 2.10) as the posterity of the Cananaeans who fled from the robber (ληστής) Joshua... " - taken from the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, William Smith, L.L.D. 1854
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
14th centry - "the Berbers are the children of Canaan son of Ham, son of Noah. Their ancestor was named Mazigh..." Ibn Khaldun
MAURI were once a the very dark-skinned people occupying coastal North Africa. Tuareg also called Imoshagh (Mazikes of Roman texts)themselves are known in African manuscripts as a group that before settling themselves mixed with "Turks and Tartars", Syrian and Khoran (Iranian) merchants. According to Idrisi in the 11th century A.D. these veiled Berbers were still spread between Zeila in Somalia and to the Maghreb in the far west. (See Richmond Palmer's, book, Bornu Sahara and Sudan)
1835 - "Ahmed el Fasi, in his Ketab el Giammar, says that the Berbers are a colony of Philistines who took refuge in Africa after David had killed Gialout or Goliath (Herbelot, art. Gialout). Others say that they are the descendants of the Canaanites and Amalekites driven from Palestine by Joshua. “ on p. 262 of The 1835 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge, Volume 4
Men from the noble clans of the Tuareg wear a dark blue indigo veil.
The descendants of Tuareg (speakers of Ta'Mashek meaning belonging to the Mashek or Mazigh) and other relatively pure Berbers still claim descent from the Canaanites through Amalek later and otherwise known as Phoenicians (Ph'anakes of the Greco Egyptian Manetho) and Philistines. (The Amalekite shepherds are called Phoenicians by the Roman Josephus circa 1st c. see the text Antiquities of the Jews.)
As mentioned previously, some Tuareg men not long ago in colonial times were recorded as being up to and over 7 feet tall. The Tuareg told colonial writers that came originally from Phoenicia. In the 9th century, Ya'aqubi, Arabic historian of Central Asian origin said certain Tuareg tribes in north Africa called "Ilam" were also known as "Ailanab" because "when their ancestors ruled in Egypt" they were spread from (Ailah or the Gulf of Aylah or Elah) to Barka. This is a reference to the reign of "the Hyksos" in the 2nd millenium B.C. and the Amalekite conquest and rule in Canaan, Egypt from the Hejaz (western Arabia).
Tuareg of modern Mali
The Ifuras (Ifren) and Maghira (Makhura) clans of Tuareg of Mali and Sahel claimed descent from Isleten or Soulat(Salatis), Chana or Djana(Khyan) a descendant of Canaan and other Hyksos (Amalekite) kings mentioned on ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and scarabs. They descend from Berbers or Zenata camelmen of the deserts of Libya (Tripolitania) as the Nafusawa or Nafzawa further North.
Berber girl of Jebel Nafusa in western Libya (the Jebel Nafusa region is part of ancient "Tripolitania")
1915 “ The Amalekites migrated into Egypt and southern Pal. The Pharoahs of the time of Abraham, Joseph and Moses are represented to have been Amalekites. Finally, broken up by Josh, they fled into northern Africa, where they are said to have grown into the Berber races...” - found in the International Standard Bible Enclcopaedia by James Orr.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Could you expand on the above later when you got a chance I aways supposed they were slave sailors..as they were alawys shown to be manual labourors and in a perceived inferior positon.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Could you expand on the above later when you got a chance I aways supposed they were slave sailors..as they were alawys shown to be manual labourors and in a perceived inferior positon.
Hi Brada - I unfortunately don't have the book showing the Moors on ships standing behind the Portuguese. in those paintings they are standing in rows and the figures are larger than the one in the photo below. They are very black long-headed, slender and bearded. Something like the famous painting of Moors playing chess in Spain in an earlier century below.
Of course you are correct in saying that at the time the Portuguese visited Japan or 16th century which is after the time the Moors had lost control of the Iberian peninsula the Moors which were left in Portugal were indeed "slave sailors" and in a servile position to the Christians.
Notice in the painting below done in the 16th century in Japan. Though the figures are small in this painting the white Portuguese are being shadowed by black men holding umbrellas over the heads of the white Portuguese and doing other things. Similarly, Moorish-looking bearded black men are figured standing in rows on ships behind the Portuguese in other Japanese paintings from the same period.
The Portuguese depicted visiting 16th century Japan with their Moorish servants
Moors play chess in Spain from an earlier time, but at a relatively late period in the Muslim empire when the Mozarab term "Moro" was still synonymous with the Mozarab word "Negro"
The Moors or Moro, like the other Africans (Congolese) that came with the Portuguese to America are similarly documented as Negro or near black in color.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The idea that Moors were negroid is absurd. Obviously they were a diverse group but mostly arab muslims. There are genetic studies all over the web that deal with these issues.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The idea that Moors were negroid is absurd. Obviously they were a diverse group but mostly arab muslims. There are genetic studies all over the web that deal with these issues.
Umm ... call el Negro what you want. And be glad!
Saudi bedouins
I personally prefer like the Mozarab translation - "el Moro".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic