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Late 19th European portrayals of "Arab" bedouin and Moors in various places. Moors at this late time meant absolutely black "Negroids" and many of their tawny or mulatto descendants
Title: "A Moorish Procession"
Title: "Moorish Warrior"
Title: "Moorish Guard"
OOPS! - Sorry for the many "true Negroids" depicted in this posting of Moors and Arabs
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Brada, Nobody has fallen. What has happened is that a group of you in the mental institution have taken over the computer lab. You guys are some of the most ignorant people I have ever observed. It proves that teaching people to read and write is only a small part of the job. We have severe problems in the black community and you people come on here putting out garbage. One would think that making a positive contribution to the world, even a small one, would be a positive thing.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Hammer go to the chalk board and write 500 times I will not interrupt grown folks conversations I will not interrupt grown folks conversations I will not interrupt grown folks conversations Then take this suspention notice to your parents..ok???
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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This is a classic example of why black people aroud the world bring up the rear in every catagory. They are consumed and obsessed with being victims. Meanwhile their kids can't write and if they make it to college at all end up in remedial classes all out of scale to their numbers. the cities and countries they run are laced with corruption and crime and pverty. Meanwhile we have a group of brick heads on this board who want to support some mythical brand of alternative history cooked up non scholars and promoted by message boards. The damage they do is not to our hard working scholars but to confused black kids trying to undertand the world they live in.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Thanks Bogle, I forgot this one posted by someone for the Rastalivewire site, and I have to "confuse some more black kids". Notice the person is referred to in the article as a "Berber pirate".
"Berber" of the "race of Guelaia".
More "alternative history" below.
1909 - From "The Passing of the Shereefian Empire", by E. Ashmead-Bartlett
"THE CAMPAIGN IN THE RIFF."
"ON August 3, 1909, I again found myself en route for Morocco. During the month of July hostilities suddenly broke out between the Span- ish garrison occupying Melilla and the Riff tribesmen, the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula....
The Guelaia Peninsula broadens out towards the west, and the Moors,if hard pressed, could avoid Gurugu and Soto-mayor, and escape across the Eio de Oro into the friendly territory of the Beni Said, and by making a detour regain the mountains from the south-west."
There is also region called Ayn Bou Guelia in Tunisia.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Painting entitled "Two Moors", by Rembrandt
My sincere sympathy to those offended by their "Negroid"ness.
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” said by Thomas Campbell cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published in 1987 by E. J. Bull
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Thanks Dana,so many of the black sailors would have been left over converted Moors much in line with Leo Africanus and Estivanico.
My how the mighty hath fallen.
I would agree Brada, but from the painting below it looks like some Europeans were ignorant of the fact that the word "black" was to be used before the word "Moor".LOL
"A Moor" by Juriaen of Streeck (1619-1673)
Originally discovered and posted by Egmond Codfried.
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Painting entitled: Kabyle, by Adolf SCHREYER (1828 - 1899)
Who should frankly be ashamed of himself for observing a Kabyle man in such a fashion. He should have foreseen that this degree of "Negroidity" is unacceptable to Negrophobes.
"Kabyle"
Now this 1860s depiction from "Enfants Kabyles" is much more acceptable. More Fulani like - no?
By Isidore-Alexandre-Augustin Pils
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” stated by Thomas Campbell; cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published 1987 by E. J. Bull
1842 - "The Kabyles are described as being about the middle height, with brown complexions, sometimes verging on black... System of Universal Geography, founded on the Works of Malte-Brun and Balbi, p. 842.
1887 - "The Kabyles of the Algerian and Tunisian territories are the most industrious inhabitants of the Barabary States,...They are of middle stature; their complexion is brown, and sometimes nearly black." p. 101 of The Gospel in All Lands
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Ancient indigenes of the Sahara portray themselves making their customary hair crests.
The Fulani are otherwise known as Fellata, Fula, Peul, Fula, Fulbe, and as Futa, Futabe or Woodabe. The hair crest has a special meaning in their culture. They originally occupied North Africa and the Sahara and judging from Old Kingdom paintings the western oases of Egypt. They were ancestral elongated types who many scholars consider associated with the pastoral (bovidian)tradition in neolithic North Africa and Sahara. Like their relatives the Tuareg an other "elongated" African types, many Fulani men of the Sahel (Woodabe) reach a height of 7 feet in stature.
Strong cultural connections or similarities (lithic industry) have been found between the neolithic bovidian culture of the Sahara (Tenere, Air, Tassili, etc.), the Kharga and Fayum Oases and areas of the Arabian peninsula such as the Rub al Khali (where rock art shows similar elongated African types).
Today as yesterday.
Young man of the east African (Bororo) branch of the Fulani.
Kobe Bryant - professional basketball player
The Fulani who are spread from East to West Africa are known to have been ancestral to millions of Africans in the Americas.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Thanks Bogle, I forgot this one posted by someone for the Rastalivewire site, and I have to "confuse some more black kids". Notice the person is referred to in the article as a "Berber pirate".
"Berber" of the "race of Guelaia".
More "alternative history" below.
1909 - From "The Passing of the Shereefian Empire", by E. Ashmead-Bartlett
"THE CAMPAIGN IN THE RIFF."
"ON August 3, 1909, I again found myself en route for Morocco. During the month of July hostilities suddenly broke out between the Span- ish garrison occupying Melilla and the Riff tribesmen, the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula....
The Guelaia Peninsula broadens out towards the west, and the Moors,if hard pressed, could avoid Gurugu and Soto-mayor, and escape across the Eio de Oro into the friendly territory of the Beni Said, and by making a detour regain the mountains from the south-west."
There is also region called Ayn Bou Guelia in Tunisia.
Actually I posted that here on Egyptsearch as well along with all the orientalist portraits at the top of the thread.
Europeans know what Moors mean. Europeans know A LOT about the history of blacks world wide. Of course they do because a LOT of it is sitting either in private collections or hidden away in the basement of museums. Have you ever noticed how much stuff is in the homes of the wealthy? Black "negroid" Buddha statues, ivories and carvings from all over Africa, Egyptian relics, Moorish relics. ALL of this stuff they have and KNOW more about than most blacks do.
The point is that they are simply liars and thieves and like any good society of thieves and liars they are careful to make sure their lies are not in conflict in order to present a false front to everyone else. But of course the whole purpose of this false front is to make thieves and liars look like unbiased "scholars" and "truth seekers" while they are lying to your face. But of course so much of the propaganda in white society is all about making thieves and crooks look like heroes and saviors and unfortunately a lot of victims go for it. This is why they steal so many artifacts world wide, including now Iraq, so that their experts can play games with the facts and tell lies.....
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: No, all Moors were not black because later in time the term loosened up and referred to various Muslims.
Thus we have: * black-a-moor * tawny moor * white moor. But take note from Black-a-Moor (black as a Moor) that Moor must've originally designated a black person.
While there are plenty a black-a-moor in Orientalist art I haven't seen too many pieces of actual Islamic art with any blacks in them. The stuff I've run across is mostly like the below but I'm sure somebody can find better pieces than this.
quote:Originally posted by T. Rex: To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?
It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".
Also it is important to note that the time period given for the creation of this document is during the Almoravid Dynasty. Therefore, such a manuscript, with its influence and similarity to eastern artistic trends and literary traditions, probably does not really depict "Moors" or more specifically Almoravids to any large degree. It was under the Almoravids that a large resurgence in literature and art occurred in Andalus, of which this document is quite likely part.
But I can guarantee you that if you were to look at the documents, portraits and writings of Europeans and the artifacts they have from the last 800 years, you would clearly see how it is only in America that "Moor" has become redefined out of necessity. But even then they contradict themselves because many of the American photos, documents and artifacts contradict the views of the racists to begin with.
And here is another image of the Rif pirates: Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown.
But, also there were certainly depictions of Muslims that were fair-skinned particularly after the 13th century in Britain especially. A "Moor" became any person particularly from Morocco and then of North Africa in general. Thus, the British and some French painters from after the 13th but before the 20th century often painted women from N. African harems as calling them "Moorish" women, etc.
Nevertheless - the word Moor Moro is used synonomously for "Negro" by both Christian Spaniards and the English or British before the 14th century and unlike later periods, the term then included for people of all faiths.
One note just to put things in context - the Central Asian people in the first picture of your post (first posted by someone else) had nothing to do with "the Arabs" or "Moors" of Spain and the black people represented therein could be anyone from Indian to Arab to African.
The name of such Turkoman Muslims who entered Iran and Turkey escapes me at the moment but there is a name for them and the period they belong to. I know it wasn't the Mameluks.
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Some black Americans, to the chagrin of a few, have already found genetic connections to the Tuareg, among them one of the leading activists in the reparations movement in the U.S..
Photo: Chuck Berry, American entertainer
Tuareg from the group Tinariwen
See also BIOARCHAEOLOGY OF THE AFRICAN DIASPORA IN THE AMERICAS: Its Origins and Scope in the Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 30: 387-422 (Volume publication date October 2001)
Michael L. Blakey, Department of Anthropology, College of William and Mary, Williamsburg,Virginia
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^ LOL Dana, don't mind Hammered. We have explained to this guy in over a dozen threads that the Moors were black Africans. The very word 'Moore' is derived from the Greek word maure meaning black. All evidence including historical documentation and artwork from Europeans themselves shows this. So that he continues to be in denial of such is proof that he suffers from mental issues.
In regard to the Syrians, we know the Greeks spoke of a 'Leuco-Syrian' or white-Syrians during late classical times meaning that these were an exception to the generally darker Syrians.
^ The people above represent the Elamites who were the indigenous people of Iran before the coming of the Indo-Iranian speakers. All historical evidence shows a mixing of fair-skinned Iranians from Central Asia with indigenes and eventually usurpation. Although prominent Elamite families still maintained high positions in the Persian empire including as royal admistrators and guards like the 'Immortals'. What's interesting is that in earlier Babylonian stone engravings and depictions, Judaeans are sometimes mistaken for Elamites by modern scholars and for apparent reasons. This was pointed out before by Takruri.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hi Djehuti - I agree what you said about the pretender in your first paragraph.
But I would only add the following.
I would suggest that the Elamites and the Persians were two different peoples. The Elamites spoke dialects related to the Dravidians while the Persians were descendants of peoples who had founded Maitanni coming from the Hyksos.
Medes or Mada and Persians(Daae, Achaemenid, Amardi, Derbikes), according to their own legends, were descendants of Dahakk, Al Daaa, Saudah or Sudabeh, Afrasiab, "Siavash son of Kavus" or Ka'ush and other semi-legendary Iranians heroes said to have once ruled in the land of Himyar (Haumavaran).
This is why later Arabic writers refer to the "Meds" who settled on the Indus as descendants of Ham.
The Persian capital of Persepolis was of course in Elam where these Persian palace reliefs were made.
Elamite man - the ruling class of pre-Persian Elam were relatively small and black people some of whom evidently had flaring nostrils (according to Maspero?). They were closely related in their dialects and probably biology to ancient Dravidians.
Modern man still residing in ancient Elamite town.
Persian Soldier of Persepolis
The Persians were probable descendants of Afro-Arabians (Amlukh or "Meluchha") who settled Syria during the Hyksos reign under "Qabus" and "Dahak son of Alwan".
Afar man of the horn of Africa.
Men of the Medes
Medes or Madai or Mathani settled Syria probably after "the Hyksos" who were undoubtedly originally an Afrosemitic people from the Hejaz. The land of "Maitanni" of Naharain was probably named for the regions called Mathani, Nahar and Bathana in the Hejaz around Ta'if (south of Mecca) as suggested by Kamal Salibi in his book THE BIBLE CAME FROM ARABIA. Thus scholars have noted the story of Job or Ayyub(the Midianite) of Uz is the same as that of "Tobias" of Median and Ecbatana.
Greeks and other early writers are known to have confused the land of Midian in Arabia with the land of Median. And perhaps rightly as both appear to have been the same people originally.
This heritage is the root of the story by Abulfeda Ibn Khathir, a thirteenth-century Arabic scholar, and earlier Arabic historians, that Lud (El Aoud), Noah's grandson through Shem, had four sons named Pharis (Fairuz), Djurdjan (Traetona), Tasm (Tasma), and Amlekh (Mleccha) and these traveled to the East and along with Jathiar and Thamud settled such places a Baktriana, Gedrosia and other Central Asian regions up to the Caspian Sea.
The earliest "Indic Iranians" were later invaded by long-haired people called Scythians, as was India. They are associated with the later Parthian and Sassanian periods of Persia.
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^ I don't see how we disagree?? If you read my previous post again, I did point out the fact that the Elamites and Persians were different peoples. As I said, the Elamites were the indigenes of the Iranian plateau long before the 'Iranians' proper that include Medes, Persians, Dahae, etc. appeared. As for Elamite relations to Dravidian, not much of the Elamite script has been left but from what has been gathered the Elamite language is not found to be closely related to any other known language thus making it a language isolate; however, there does seem to be a distant affinity with Dravidian.
By the way, the oldest known documented case of the Indic branch of Indo-European comes from the Mitanni of 15th-13th century BC northern Syria who spoke a Sanskrit-like language. These people were described as blonde-haired and gray-eyed whites which may lend some credence to the blonde Aryan belief. No doubt this represents a wave of 'white' Syrians.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't see how we disagree?? If you read my previous post again, I did point out the fact that the Elamites and Persians were different peoples. As I said, the Elamites were the indigenes of the Iranian plateau long before the 'Iranians' proper that include Medes, Persians, Dahae, etc. appeared. As for Elamite relations to Dravidian, not much of the Elamite script has been left but from what has been gathered the Elamite language is not found to be closely related to any other known language thus making it a language isolate; however, there does seem to be a distant affinity with Dravidian.
By the way, the oldest known documented case of the Indic branch of Indo-European comes from the Mitanni of 15th-13th century BC northern Syria who spoke a Sanskrit-like language. These people were described as blonde-haired and gray-eyed whites which may lend some credence to the blonde Aryan belief. No doubt this represents a wave of 'white' Syrians.
Actually, I think certain Dravidians scholars would disagree with your assessment of Elamite. Some scholars have said what you agree with while others say otherwise.
Secondly, the Maitanni were certainly never ever described as "blonde haired" and "gray eyed". I can guarantee you that. Neither were the Daae Derbikes and other early Indic Iranian people of Persia who spoke Indic Iranian. Herodotus and others claimed that the Achamenids came from the Daaoi or Daae. They were the same people that are described as black in the Rig Veda and other Schytho Indic or Scytho-Aryan texts.
In the Rig Vedas, Indra proclaims in Veda X 49, he has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya" and "Indra who slayed Vritra and stormed towns has destoyed the troops of the black Dasas..." II 20 , 6 and 7 Encyclopaedia Indica Volume 12 by Shyam Singh Shashi, p. 121.
Also the Rig Veda also speaks many of the destruction of the pura or tripura triple walled fortresses of th Dasas which were in fact built by the early Daae or Persians in Central Asia.
Let us not forget that the so called "semitic" dialects are still believed by many "scholars" to be of Eurasiatic origin. Herodotus makes clear the people that adopted the Aryan name from the Mede were the people who were "Scyths" or Scytho Haumovera Soma using Scythians who wore cone like hats. The latter had nothing to do with the Achaemenids.
The name of the tribe Daae Daoi or Dahae has long been thought to be the root of the word Dasya or Dasa. (See Shashi p. 90)
The Daae were also called Scythians in Iran after a certain point like the Medes and Jats after the Achaemenid period. That, however, doesn't take away the fact that their were originally "black Jats", Medes and Dasas (Daae). Hence the phrase "black Scyths" and "black Zotti" (Jati) etc.
One of the most important points you make, however, is the fact that Maitanni is known to have been related to Sanskrit which is in fact thought to have come from and been closely related to Prakrit - a dialect which according to early Hindu writings came from the "Mlecchas".
Lastly - there is some controversy over when the Indo-European and Indic Iranian came from and when it started as well as over the start of the Maitanni Empire. This is related to problems over the chronology of ancient Mesopotamia. There are numerous scholars, aside from Egyptologist David Rohl, that are bringing up alternate chronologies of the Near East including Egypt and especially Mesopotamia. Some of them for good reason have said the history of Syria and Mesoptamia has to have been several hundred years later than what has been tradtionally accepted.
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All kinds of excuses have arisen about why the Dasyu are called black. For example one excuse is that it was "symbolic".
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu sprang from a black womb." Rig Veda II 20.6
"Active and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, Driving the black skin far away. 2 Quelling the riteless Dasyu, may we think upon the bridge of bliss, Leaving the bridge of woe behind." (9.xli.1: book 9, hymn XLI, verse 1)"
In reality Indra was none other than Intauruta of Maitanni was none other than Thaur or Thawr (the bull) of the early and modern Arabian "Semites" and all of the Aryan deities similarly can be traced to the early Afro semitic deities especially Amurru genealogies of kings.
It would not be surprising if the Maitanni dialect developed as a result of these early semitic speakers settling amongst Ural Altaic speakers.
Asko Parpola a famous "Indologist" was convinced that the Dasas were the pre-Vedic “carriers of the Bronze Age culture of Greater Iran”. Parpola is also the organizer of the 12th World Sanskrit conference of 2003.
Naturally, as with Martin Bernal his work has been somewhat frantically attacked.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Actually, I think certain Dravidians scholars would disagree with your assessment of Elamite. Some scholars have said what you agree with while others say otherwise.
Yes, well the relation of Elamite is still a matter of conjecture.
quote:Secondly, the Maitanni were certainly never ever described as "blonde haired" and "gray eyed". I can guarantee you that. Neither were the Daae Derbikes and other early Indic Iranian people of Persia who spoke Indic Iranian. Herodotus and others claimed that the Achamenids came from the Daaoi or Daae. They were the same people that are described as black in the Rig Veda and other Schytho Indic or Scytho-Aryan texts.
The Mitanni were portrayed by Egyptians as pale-skinned with blonde hair and light eyes. I'm not going to generalize and say all Indo-Iranian speaking peoples looked like that as was the old 'Nordic Aryan race' theory but that was the descripition of the Mitanni and still is for rural Dardic peoples including the Nuris of Afghanistan and northeast Pakistan. Most Indo-Iranian speakers are of course dark-haired. I think you are confusing the Dahae with the aboriginal Dasyu and Dasasof the Rig-Veda.
quote:In the Rig Vedas, Indra proclaims in Veda X 49, he has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya" and "Indra who slayed Vritra and stormed towns has destoyed the troops of the black Dasas..." II 20 , 6 and 7 Encyclopaedia Indica Volume 12 by Shyam Singh Shashi, p. 121.
Also the Rig Veda also speaks many of the destruction of the pura or tripura triple walled fortresses of th Dasas which were in fact built by the early Daae or Persians in Central Asia.
Let us not forget that the so called "semitic" dialects are still believed by many "scholars" to be of Eurasiatic origin. Herodotus makes clear the people that adopted the Aryan name from the Mede were the people who were "Scyths" or Scytho Haumovera Soma using Scythians who wore cone like hats. The latter had nothing to do with the Achaemenids.
The name of the tribe Daae Daoi or Dahae has long been thought to be the root of the word Dasya or Dasa. (See Shashi p. 90)
The Daae were also called Scythians in Iran after a certain point like the Medes and Jats after the Achaemenid period. That, however, doesn't take away the fact that their were originally "black Jats", Medes and Dasas (Daae). Hence the phrase "black Scyths" and "black Zotti" (Jati) etc.
Again, I don't think the Dahae of the Iranian plateau were the same as the Dasas of the Indian subcontinent. Although I don't doubt that blacks were aboriginal to both regions. Also, I thought "black Scyths" was a description of clothing like the traditional attire worn by the Nuristani unless you are speaking of a people similart to if not the same as the black Huns you mentioned before.
quote:One of the most important points you make, however, is the fact that Maitanni is known to have been related to Sanskrit which is in fact thought to have come from and been closely related to Prakrit - a dialect which according to early Hindu writings came from the "Mlecchas".
Lastly - there is some controversy over when the Indo-European and Indic Iranian came from and when it started as well as over the start of the Maitanni Empire. This is related to problems over the chronology of ancient Mesopotamia. There are numerous scholars, aside from Egyptologist David Rohl, that are bringing up alternate chronologies of the Near East including Egypt and especially Mesopotamia. Some of them for good reason have said the history of Syria and Mesoptamia has to have been several hundred years later than what has been tradtionally accepted.
Yes, I created a thread last year about Rohl and his findings. Hopefully I can find it again.
quote: All kinds of excuses have arisen about why the Dasyu are called black. For example one excuse is that it was "symbolic".
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu sprang from a black womb." Rig Veda II 20.6
"Active and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, Driving the black skin far away. 2 Quelling the riteless Dasyu, may we think upon the bridge of bliss, Leaving the bridge of woe behind." (9.xli.1: book 9, hymn XLI, verse 1)"
In reality Indra was none other than Intauruta of Maitanni was none other than Thaur or Thawr (the bull) of the early and modern Arabian "Semites" and all of the Aryan deities similarly can be traced to the early Afro semitic deities especially Amurru genealogies of kings.
It would not be surprising if the Maitanni dialect developed as a result of these early semitic speakers settling amongst Ural Altaic speakers.
Asko Parpola a famous "Indologist" was convinced that the Dasas were the pre-Vedic “carriers of the Bronze Age culture of Greater Iran”. Parpola is also the organizer of the 12th World Sanskrit conference of 2003.
Naturally, as with Martin Bernal his work has been somewhat frantically attacked.
I must disagree here. Indo-Iranian is a branch of the Indo-European phylum. Whatever non Aryan influence that can be seen in Iran and Syria comes from the Elamite and Uratian peoples respectively with Semitic influence among both via Mesopotamia.
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Before responding to the above I would have to know which Aryans and Indo-Iranians you were speaking of. The Dahae or Daasa of early Iran, the Caucasus and Central Asia or the later fair-skinned Scythians who settled within their sphere of influence adopting their Gods and the name "Arya".
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ All the above, since 'Arya' was the designation of Indo-Iranic peoples in general. Though I'm still not certain if Dasa could be called Aryans as they were considered non-Aryans, though there is the theory they represent some early form of Indo-Iranic culture in the subcontinent.
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Even Wikipedia got it nearly right this time.
"The Jat people and Meds have been the oldest occupants of Sind. The first Persian account of the 11th-century Mujmat ut-Tawarikh (1026), originally an ancient work in Sanskrit, mentions Jats and Meds as the ancient tribe of Sind and calls them the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah."
The Tawarikh was written in "Persia" or Iran and what is interesting is that the Scytho-Iranians were the first to invent the notion of Ham being black and cursed because of drink (Hauma). Thus it is Iranians themselves called the descendants of the Medes black. Around the ther 9th c. another "Persian" wrote "Moses was of black (or dark brown) complexion, lank hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt (Jatts)." Sahih Bukhari vol. 4 Book 55, Number 649. Collected by Bukhari of of 9th century Uzbekistan.
The original Medes were pushed southward from places like Kanguvar (northwest Iran) after the 7th century B.C. The name Kanga among the Jats is related and is possibly the root of the word "Tchangi" or Tzingani an early word for the gypsies and Zangi or Zanj in the Bundehism . The Zang (Kang) were originally the "Black" descendants of Az Dahakka in Iran pushed into the sea. Who is made evil in the Bundehism and other Scytho-Iranian texts like the Da'asa in the Vedas.
Today even many of the Jatts are fair-skinned thinking themselves the original Jatts or az Zutti.
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Actually Indi Iranic peoples were not all called Arya. Just as all Germans, Goths and Getae were not originally Indo-Iranian.
Like the Scythians, Indic Iranians were of all sorts judging from their skeletal and cultural evidence. Red haired people of brachcycephalic, head form, dark haired prominent nosed people of brachycephalic head form and dark-skinned Dahae or Persian/Medes people to name a few. Medes were the original Aryans according to Herodotus.
Thus even the Rig Veda X 49 proclaims, Indra has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya".
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that.
The evidence for that is virtually indisputable. The dominant languages spoken in the region have an African origin. Semitic tongue originated within East Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
If you're a ordinary honest white American male, I don't want to meet a liar. What Dana is suggesting isn't false, the disparity of Blacks and Whites is greater now than prior the civil rights:
Welcome to a failed state of America!
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^ Indeed. And the very root cause of such social disparities is socialism marked by government programs under the guise of "progressive" policies. You would think that as a so-called 'conservative' American, Hammered would know this but of course it is white males like him that give conservatism and especially the Republican party a bad name! Unfortunately it is the 'liberal' white racists from the left-wing that are more dangerous as they were the ones that intalled government policies which destroy minority communities especially blacks.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that.
The evidence for that is virtually indisputable. The dominant languages spoken in the region have an African origin. Semitic tongue originated within East Africa.
Of course only one with the most basic and rudimentary knowledge of history and linguistics would know that Semitic is the only branch of the Afro-asiatic language phylum that is spoken outside of Africa, add to this the simple fact of geography that Southwest Asia (particularly the Levant and Arabia) is right next to Africa, then it is not inconceivable that black African populations were present in that region! Of course we are dealing with the deranged mind of a booze hammered 'professor'.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Painting entitled: Kabyle, by Adolf SCHREYER (1828 - 1899)
Who should frankly be ashamed of himself for observing a Kabyle man in such a fashion. He should have foreseen that this degree of "Negroidity" is unacceptable to Negrophobes.
"Kabyle"
Now this 1860s depiction from "Enfants Kabyles" is much more acceptable. More Fulani like - no?
By Isidore-Alexandre-Augustin Pils
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” stated by Thomas Campbell; cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published 1987 by E. J. Bull
1842 - "The Kabyles are described as being about the middle height, with brown complexions, sometimes verging on black... System of Universal Geography, founded on the Works of Malte-Brun and Balbi, p. 842.
1887 - "The Kabyles of the Algerian and Tunisian territories are the most industrious inhabitants of the Barabary States,...They are of middle stature; their complexion is brown, and sometimes nearly black." p. 101 of The Gospel in All Lands
Interest quotes. Modern Kabyles tend to look more "European" than Southern Europeans. The majority of the present coastal population would fit in with Southern Europeans, on the other hand.
That likely suggests a European influx, which was tied to the slave trade. It is documented that Christians were often taken as far as Northern Europe and many were Slavs as well, which explains the present physical traits amongst the Kabyles.
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posted
Yes - it would appear that modern fair-skinned Kabyles or at least the ones shown in books and the upper classes immigrating to France and other places ar more numerous. But, one has to wonder how many of the darker ones that lived in "Numidian" style habitats are still there.
The exact quote from the 1890 Encyclopedia Britannica says, "...They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” 1890
I have personally seen some of them at a cultural event in the U.S. and noticed they dance with their shoulders like peoples of the Eritrean/Ethiopian region.
Ignorance concerning them is also a matter of sociopolitics and what the historical presence of Ottomans and French colonials had on the class and power structure in Algeria.
What is the most distrurbing thing though is that most so-called historical "scholars" from Europe can write books without mentioning the the fact that there were or are two obviously different Kabyle populations, not only appearance-wise, but culturally-speaking.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas (Chacfoun) and Apopi I(whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus) and Archles (whom was probably the one the Greeks called Hercules).
The Zenata or Iforas Tuareg claim descent from Afra or Ifren son of Chana or Djana (Khian? or Ian-re?) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
The below first and second paragraph are from The Origin of Pagan Idolatry Ascertained from Historical Testimony... published 1816
“Others of the expelled Shepherds took refuge in the most western regions of Africa, which the Romans called Mauritania, and which at present are known by the appellation of Marocco. Hence we find also an Ethiopia or Cusha-dwip on the shores of the Atlantic, no less than on those of the Erythraean ocean. This land is plainly that to which Homer alludes, when he speaks of the Ethiopians as being divided into two nations; the one dwelling far to the east, and the other as far to the west’. And so accordingly, his language is interpreted by his imitator Virgil; when he describes the Ethiopians , as being the last nation towards the setting Sun and as tenanting the shores of the ocean. These western Ethiopians were by the Greeks usually called Atlantians, from their great god and sacred mountain Atlas: but the Atlantians are acknowledged by Diodorus to have been Ethiopians. The whole substance and all the sacred names of their mythology were the same as those of Greece and Phenicia: and I may particularly notice, that the hero-god Atlas, who communicated his appellation to them was a prince no less of Hellas and Palestine than of Ethiopic Mauritania. This coincidence arose from the common origination of the Danai, the Palistim, and the Atlantians, they were all of the same stock as the Cuthic shepherd kings of Egypt “ p. 595
Footnote. 4 of p. 595 "The fact was that the Ethiopians of Mauritania and of Hindustan were brethren by descent and were addicted to the very same superstition. Diold. Bibl. Lib. Iii.p. 201. Accordingly, there was a tradition, that the Mauritanians were the descendants of certain Indians, who had migrated into western Africa with Hercules. Strab. Geog. Lib. Xvii. P. 828.”’
1874 - John Denison Baldwin - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries John D. Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
1896 - "The name of Aurighia is indeed given to one of the principal dialects of the Tamashek language, and from the Aouragh. Ibn Khaldun, traces the great Berber divisions of Sanhadja and Lamta. This powerful race anciently inhabited the sea coast, and may have given their name to the country around Carthage." p. 193 Vol 1 The History and Description of Africa by Leo Africanus the Haklyut Society Brown and John Pory, 1896
A Tuareg of Niger.
The Tuareg of Niger are mainly Auelimidden or Lamtuna of the Sanhaja. Like most Berbers Tuareg range in complexion from black to yellowish. Most Tuareg are however still dark brown close to the color of their "Ethiopian ancestors".
They claim descent from the Phoenicians and their script "TiFinagh" means belonging to the Phoenicians, i.e. the "fugitives from Canaan".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown...
I find this strange. Exactly what compelled America to try to change the definition of 'Moor'?? I find racism to be a poor excuse as even Europeans were also racist but never needed to deny the very definition of Moor to be black!
I remember in another of the many threads we have in this forum on the topic of Moors, Doug or someone else posted an old article about a West African slave who was mistaken for a Moor simply because he was Muslim and was fluent in Arabic! You would think such a historical American fact would click to some minds. Then again, we have idiots like Hammered who are in a perpetual state of denial even to dismiss all the European historical documentation as well as artwork let alone the very etymology and definition of the name 'Moor'!
By the way Dana, I remember back in high school in a literature class my [white] literature teacher reading some Spanish letters I believe just before the Columbus expedition. The letter was written by a Spanish royal or some other elite where he said something to the likes of "we have already washed away the black stain of the Moors". Do you know what I'm speaking of? If so, do you know the source or can you post it?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown...
I find this strange. Exactly what compelled America to try to change the definition of 'Moor'?? I find racism to be a poor excuse as even Europeans were also racist but never needed to deny the very definition of Moor to be black!
I remember in another of the many threads we have in this forum on the topic of Moors, Doug or someone else posted an old article about a West African slave who was mistaken for a Moor simply because he was Muslim and was fluent in Arabic! You would think such a historical American fact would click to some minds. Then again, we have idiots like Hammered who are in a perpetual state of denial even to dismiss all the European historical documentation as well as artwork let alone the very etymology and definition of the name 'Moor'!
By the way Dana, I remember back in high school in a literature class my [white] literature teacher reading some Spanish letters I believe just before the Columbus expedition. The letter was written by a Spanish royal or some other elite where he said something to the likes of "we have already washed away the black stain of the Moors". Do you know what I'm speaking of? If so, do you know the source or can you post it?
Actually I do think I have heard something of this sort, however, there are, of course, hundreds of references to Moors being called Negro or black by Spanish and other Europeans. Of course, black to Hammered and other kinds of ahistorical people claim the word black didn't necessarily mean dark skinned.
As the Civil Rights era bloomed and the freedom of colonial subjects around the world sought their freedom, historians in America and other researchers (and that of course excludes Hammered), in the last century or so, began to claim "Moor" has always meant just "a Muslim" or a moderately dark- skinned or swarthy person from North Africa - obviously because of the distinguished meaning they attribute to it.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Moor had a specific legal meaning in 18th and 19th century USA. Iinm there were actually some sort of charter drawn up between the Moorish Americans and the USA government but I can't recall if it was linked to the USA war against the Barbary pirates or not.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yes - Moorish American societies still exist in the U.S. People called the Delaware Moors are said to be descended from early shipwrecked Moors. "In 1639, The First black recorded by name on the Delmar va Peninsula was called Anthony. He was delivered near present day Wilmington (Delaware). He was often described as "an Angoler or Moor," and called "Blackamoor." From the "Delaware’s Forgotten Folk" The Story of the Moors & Nanticokes by C.A. Weslager"
Here the word "Moor" is obviously equated with "Angolan".
There were societies also further south who descended from other early Muslim Africans who were called Moors by the whites.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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In the House of Representatives January 20th 1790 A petition was presented to the House from Sundry Free Moors, Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco; and residents in this State, praying that in case they should Commit Any Fault amenable to be brought to Justice, that they as Subjects to a Prince in Alliance with the United States of America, may be tried under the same Laws as the Citizens of this State would be liable to be tried, and not under the Negro Act, which was received and read.
[The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and
(page) 364 House Journal 4 January 1790- 20 January 1790
Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defence of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco’s Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered as subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.]
Ordered That it be referred to a Committee, the following Gentlemen were accordingly appointed, Mr. Justice Grimke, General Pinckney & Mr. Edward Rutledge.
. . . .
Mr. Edwd. Rutledge reported from the Committee to whom was referred the petition of the Free Moors, which he read in his place and afterwards delivered it in at the Clerks Table where it was again read for information.
Ordered That it be taken into immediate Consideration which being read through was agreed to and is as follows Viz.
Report That they have Considered the same and are of opinion that no Law of this State can in its Construction or Operation apply to them, and that persons
(page) 374 House Journal 4 January 1790-20 January 1790
who were Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco being Free in this State are not triable by the Law for the better Ordering and Governing of Negroes and other Slaves.
Resolved That this House do agree with the Report.[i]
The State Records of South Carolina Journals of the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 1789-1790
posted
^ Very interesting! So Moors were more prominent in American history than I thought...
Hey Hammered, is the 18th century congressional document that Takruri presented above part of the 'historical method'?! Is that proof enough for you?!! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Funny thing In the auto-biography of Malcom X he and his boy used to run a game on certain clubs off limits to Black people by simply dressing in sheets and a head rap,spoke in a phony accent and be addmitted in white sociaty high life.
Also in one of Rogers,books he made mention of the Saudi king on a state visit and the consternation it caused when he found what looks to be his own people as the,he left un-convinced that these were somehow not he people,The staff being made up of African Americans or to used Roger's words Negroes.
From another source this took place on board a US destroyer
The Arabs were particu-larly puzzled by the Negro mess-boys on board who, they assumed,must be Arabs and to whom they insisted on speaking Arabic since the only Negroes whom they had ever known were those who had been brought to Arabia as slaves many years ago. With difficulty theywere persuaded that these mess-boys were not only American citizensbut as much a part of the Navy and of the United States as any oftheir white shipmates http://www.amideast.org/publications/FDR_Meets_Ibn_Saud.pdfPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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alTakruri has provided us with an important document from the State Records of South Carolina, dated 1789-1790.
So let us not be like the US Security system in not being able to connect the dots!
The American Moors . the Louisiana Creoles . the Gullah . are all African Americans.
Michelle Obama has Gullah relatives...I have Creole relatives; and we both have Yoruba, Akan, etc., etc.,...heritages
--dots connected: African Americans are a Pan-African people in our ancestral heritage.Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - it would appear that modern fair-skinned Kabyles or at least the ones shown in books and the upper classes immigrating to France and other places ar more numerous. But, one has to wonder how many of the darker ones that lived in "Numidian" style habitats are still there.
The exact quote from the 1890 Encyclopedia Britannica says, "...They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” 1890
I have personally seen some of them at a cultural event in the U.S. and noticed they dance with their shoulders like peoples of the Eritrean/Ethiopian region.
Ignorance concerning them is also a matter of sociopolitics and what the historical presence of Ottomans and French colonials had on the class and power structure in Algeria.
What is the most distrurbing thing though is that most so-called historical "scholars" from Europe can write books without mentioning the the fact that there were or are two obviously different Kabyle populations, not only appearance-wise, but culturally-speaking.
^ This blatant ignoring of the facts concerning the existence of black Kabyle is nothing more than a Euro-imperialist tactic to white-wash North Africa. One of our informative posters here once explained how the same tactic was done to his home country of South Africa where 'Bantus' were spoken of by Afrikaners as 'late-comers' to the area despite living there millennia before Euros even arrived, while the aboriginal Khoisan were described as somehow not really black but a different race altogether and since the Khoisan of the Cape coasts have intermarried and mixed with European settlers, that gave whites a certain claim to the land not unlike the claims some white Americans make via alleged Native American ancestry. In East African countries and even Rwanda, certain groups were favored by Europeans due to certain facial features which likened their own and were called "Hamitic" and therefore not really 'negroid'. The fact that there are actual white Berber speakers only made it easy for Euros to white-wash all North African natives as "caucasian".
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But, don't post several replies... just one by one;
I don't see what is wrong with discussing the Moors, but this topic has already been discussed ad infinitum. No point in rediscussing it.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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[/IMG] [qb][QUOTE]"This blatant ignoring of the facts concerning the existence of black Kabyle is nothing more than a Euro-imperialist tactic to white-wash ..."
Truthfully put and my thoughts exactly.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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