quote:Originally posted by Swenet: To refocus after the shameless derail attempts...
The LSA/UP is artificially constrained to 50-10ky. Not because the evidence demands it, but because they desperately need the MSA/MP to be ancestral to the LSA/UP.
But LSA/UP-like industries before 50ky are exposing that the MSA/MP is not ancestral:
Mellars (1991: 246) defines it as ‘fully “Upper Palaeolithic” in al- most every recognized technological and typo- logical sense’.
This is an open secret among these people. They know that LSA/UP-like industries can even underlie (ie be older than) layers containing local MSA/MP industries. But they just lump everything older than 50ky together as 'MSA/MP' to get rid of the inconvenience.
Can't beat them .... join them?
In other words, the timelines are based on when humans left Africa and another example of an artificial split between Africans and everybody else.. Therefore, historically it has been associated with the "revolution" of human behavior, presumably aligned with the arrival of humans to Europe as if there was something different and "special" about the homos in Eurasia versus those in Africa. Obviously they are still working hard to maintain that view.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words, the timelines are based on when humans left Africa and another example of an artificial split between Africans and everybody else.. Therefore, historically it has been associated with the "revolution" of human behavior, presumably aligned with the arrival of humans to Europe as if there was something different and "special" about the homos in Eurasia versus those in Africa. Obviously they are still working hard to maintain that view.
You're correct, but I see that as different issue from the fact that movements of ghost populations are being mistaken as 'in situ change'. (In this case, the 'in situ change' is supposed to be local MSA/MP groups 'waking up' and becoming modern in behaviour and cognition).
But you're correct that the 50ky date is Europe centric. Based on:
-mtDNA L3 (L3 is 70ky old) -Toba eruption (happened 70ky ago) and -the sudden proliferation of LSA-like industries ~70ky
Based on these things we know that, if there is any special moment of flourishing of sapiens behaviour, it should be 70ky, not 50ky (which, like you said, is shamelessly Eurocentric).
Ten separate occurrences of Howiesons Poort industries in southern Africa have been dated by single-grain OSL techniques to between∼59 and 65 ka (54), with an apparently precocious occurrence of a similar industry recently dated to∼71 ka at thesite of PP5-6 at Pinnacle Point on the South African Cape coast(47). Genetic and archaeological perspectives on the initialmodern human colonization of southern Asia https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/110/26/10699.full.pdf
^Map showing the proliferation of mtDNA L3, mtDNA L0f1? and Y-DNA A3b-L427? peoples (among others) visible in the archaeological record as rapid appearance of LSA-like sites 70-50ky ago.
But my point with all of this is that the flourishing around 70ky is not because of any fundamental behavioural/biological change, but because the Toba eruption wiped out a lot of archaics, allowing sapiens to colonize much of the world in the aftermath. (And, therefore, to become more visible in the archaeological record). My point is that scientists are ignoring that LSA peoples were there all along. They are desperately trying to force LSA peoples in a narrative of "in situ change" from 'ancestal' MSA to 'newly evolved' LSA. And they need the date of the 'in situ transition' to be 50ky for personal reasons, so they pin it at 50ky.
But the most important point in all of this is the hidden migrations (especially of mtDNA L3 peoples) that are the REAL reason for these archaeological changes after 70ky. Scientists are too far down the rabbit hole of "in situ change" and denial to notice these migrations. That is the point right now.
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^ Hew Swenet, is there anyway you can send me the full Vishnyatsky paper? Also, what happened? What post was deleted?? Was it 'Lioness' again?
Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Hew Swenet, is there anyway you can send me the full Vishnyatsky paper? Also, what happened? What post was deleted?? Was it 'Lioness' again?
This is the second time my posts got deleted after I got provoked by someone and the post of the person provoking me was left unmoderated. I'm done here.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words, the timelines are based on when humans left Africa and another example of an artificial split between Africans and everybody else.. Therefore, historically it has been associated with the "revolution" of human behavior, presumably aligned with the arrival of humans to Europe as if there was something different and "special" about the homos in Eurasia versus those in Africa. Obviously they are still working hard to maintain that view.
You're correct, but I see that as different issue from the fact that movements of ghost populations are being mistaken as 'in situ change'. (In this case, the 'in situ change' is supposed to be local MSA/MP groups 'waking up' and becoming modern in behaviour and cognition).
But you're correct that the 50ky date is Europe centric. Based on:
-mtDNA L3 (L3 is 70ky old) -Toba eruption (happened 70ky ago) and -the sudden proliferation of LSA-like industries ~70ky
Based on these things we know that, if there is any special moment of flourishing of sapiens behaviour, it should be 70ky, not 50ky (which, like you said, is shamelessly Eurocentric).
Ten separate occurrences of Howiesons Poort industries in southern Africa have been dated by single-grain OSL techniques to between∼59 and 65 ka (54), with an apparently precocious occurrence of a similar industry recently dated to∼71 ka at thesite of PP5-6 at Pinnacle Point on the South African Cape coast(47). Genetic and archaeological perspectives on the initialmodern human colonization of southern Asia https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/110/26/10699.full.pdf
^Map showing the proliferation of mtDNA L3, mtDNA L0f1? and Y-DNA A3b-L427? peoples (among others) visible in the archaeological record as rapid appearance of LSA-like sites 70-50ky ago.
But my point with all of this is that the flourishing around 70ky is not because of any fundamental behavioural/biological change, but because the Toba eruption wiped out a lot of archaics, allowing sapiens to colonize much of the world in the aftermath. (And, therefore, to become more visible in the archaeological record). My point is that scientists are ignoring that LSA peoples were there all along. They are desperately trying to force LSA peoples in a narrative of "in situ change" from 'ancestal' MSA to 'newly evolved' LSA. And they need the date of the 'in situ transition' to be 50ky for personal reasons, so they pin it at 50ky.
But the most important point in all of this is the hidden migrations (especially of mtDNA L3 peoples) that are the REAL reason for these archaeological changes after 70ky. Scientists are too far down the rabbit hole of "in situ change" and denial to notice these migrations. That is the point right now.
Very astute observations, along with the image showing previous coastal areas likely sunk in ancient times.
However, these people still can't give up the idea of Neanderthal mixture even when the evidence says these behaviors were fundamentally African and had nothing to do with "Neanderthals"......
quote: The Toba volcanic super-eruption and human evolution
The current study reports on a unique 80,000 year-long stratigraphic record from the Dhaba site in northern India's Middle Son Valley. Stone tools uncovered at Dhaba in association with the timing of the Toba event provide strong evidence that Middle Palaeolithic tool-using populations were present in India prior to and after 74,000 years ago. Professor J.N. Pal, principal investigator from the University of Allahabad in India notes that "Although Toba ash was first identified in the Son Valley back in the 1980s, until now we did not have associated archaeological evidence, so the Dhaba site fills in a major chronological gap."
Professor Chris Clarkson of the University of Queensland, lead author of the study, adds, "Populations at Dhaba were using stone tools that were similar to the toolkits being used by Homo sapiens in Africa at the same time. The fact that these toolkits did not disappear at the time of the Toba super-eruption or change dramatically soon after indicates that human populations survived the so-called catastrophe and continued to create tools to modify their environments." This new archaeological evidence supports fossil evidence that humans migrated out of Africa and expanded across Eurasia before 60,000 years ago. It also supports genetic findings that humans interbred with archaic species of hominins, such as Neanderthals, before 60,000 years ago.
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