quote: Originally posted by alTakruri: From the above forensics data I'd say the DSC "derived" haplotype interpolated from 01:18/ 02:18 is not from any Tut family member.
It appears to be the haplotype of someone living today in the Western Hemisphere.
Some oldworld hit should have surfaced if the suspect haplotype belonged to Tut's lineage.
DSC did not let slip anything under Hawass' nose.
Stock material huh? US results popped up, which is exactly what we would expect of an organisation that is based in the US (Discovery channel).
posted
^ Correct and keep in mind the people involved in the study had their OWN lineages tested as well. It could be one of theirs. Somewhere in the article i believe it states that NONE of the mummy samples matched the Teams samples.
In any case it DOES look to be E3a or at least again "Haplotype IV":
The interesting thing is, the same group of people that argued Haplotype IV was NOT E3a because they used Str's and NOT SNP's seems like the same crowd that is arguing for R1b when it is much more reasonable based on these STR's that it is E3a or whatever subclade Haplotype IV falls within.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Cruciani's R-V88 abstract (first posted here by Evergreen)
quote: Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%.
Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times.
Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes.
A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa.
The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
Does anyone have that paper available? I'm having issues finding it through two my institutions, while Nature seems to lock me out. I'll have to access the hard copy, but meh at the moment.
Just interested in reading that paper.
As for the STR results, sounds interesting. Not sufficient, as Explorer, said to derive an actual Y-DNA haplogroup. That's especially the case when dealing with likely ancient lineages. Oh well, looks like an interesting thread.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: STRs simply allow a clade to be phylogenetically placed within a particular sub-clade, with the help of and secondary to, of course, key binary markers. Yes, guesswork of the probable clade is possible from a whole set or at least a considerable section of Y STR loci. However, it is a mistake to assume that STRs cannot mislead, since STR loci have been documented in various occasions to be homoplasic. What is the significance of this; it can lead to wrong guesswork about a clade, without key binary marker information. They are also susceptible to reversions, since they are less stable than unique event polymorphisms. For an example, see: Link
As for unique event polymorphisms; they are supposed to have occurred only one time in history, which is what makes them good markers of where and when a common ancestor emerged. Clusters or haplotypes (denoted by characteristic STRs) help us track the migration path of a certain lineage, and associated possible time frames in which it occurred.
Thanks very much, I understand now.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The interesting thing is, the same group of people that argued Haplotype IV was NOT E3a because they used Str's and NOT SNP's seems like the same crowd that is arguing for R1b when it is much more reasonable based on these STR's that it is E3a or whatever subclade Haplotype IV falls within.
LMAO
That is because double-think and hypocrisy are the marked traits of racists, but as Takruri says, forget about them and focus more on the info at hand-- as that is the best way to destroy them.
Indeed, it would be a savory twist of irony if Tut's lineage is indeed E3a and not E3b, thus linking him with West and Central Africans even more. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
sigh! sigh! sigh! Boy are we slow. Not you DJ personally.
A lot of these debates can be resolved by undertanding the ancient migration patterns of Africans.
What makes E3a "link" (per DJ)with West Africans. E3a supposedly originated in somewhere in western Sudan. Do you think they ALL teleported to West Africa? Some Ethiopian and Sudanese groups carry as much as 45% E3a. Upper Egyptians also carry the hg. Tut has ALMOST a good a chance being E3a as E3b. And a greater chance than R1b.
You guys really have to start analyzing the data yourself and stop regurgitating the conclusion section. Where is our resident DNA expert? Stop stroking yourself and get to work. This kid Astenb is pulling ahead.
QUOTE. . . . . : Indeed, it would be a savory twist of irony if Tut's lineage is indeed E3a and not E3b, thus linking him with West and Central Africans even more.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Please note there is a difference between population genetics and individual genetics such that a single individual could be a minority as small as one in any given population.
I'm going to do a few more things with the DSC "derived" Tut family haplotype.
While noticing only 3 people in YHRD's database had the haplotype I used I'm going to narrow it down a bit. Why? The more STRs used the smaller the number of hits will be. Forensics as used in crime solving is meant to point to one culpable party, i.e., a forensic sample is supposed to single out who the victim is or who the perp is.
It also came back to me that the values for DYS393 and Y-GATA-H4 published in Hawass(2010) and broadcast on DSC are the same. This means there's a chance the DSC "derived" haplotype is actually the unreleased Hawass(2010) haplotype of either Amenhotep III, KV55, or King Tut.
The method of obtaining the values from the DSC broadcast is replicable and falsifiable.
posted
@ Hammer Keep saying it and you may eventually believe it. In case you haven't caught on yet. Most here don't believe in a supposedly R1b Tut.
Those who were scrambling to make R1b African have given up. . .why. . it doesn't make historical, genetic and cultural sense.
Long story short, we are giving Hawass the benefit of the doubt, there wasn't any official release, after one week of hysteria, we are moving on.
Even the resident village comic, Osirion-amid, don't believe the result.
@ Altk - great thread, keep it coming, many are reading.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Yeah. He could be hg-I,J, M or even Ameri-Indian. The question is what is the statistical probability of that being the case. Where is the statistical, cultural, historical and linguistic data to support the supposedly genetic data. Especially one that is wack.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Please note there is a difference between population genetics and individual genetics such that a single individual could be a minority as small as one in any given population.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The man is R1b and Hawass has already said his ancestors were european farmers. The information has been all over the net. You see it but you have to deny it because it destroys your racist ideology.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
"It over the NET" so it is true. . .and YOU are a scholar? We are suppose to believe you are intelligent and not one of the many caught up in hype and hysteria.
You should realize by now one of the strength of this board is many don't get caught up in the hype. . . .the recent events being an exception .
BTW: "his ancestors were European farmers". You are NOT really good at spin . . are you? a first year college student could of come up with a better story than that. Sound like even YOU don't believe he is R1b. with this Euro farmer BS.
(added)
I learnt this from white people. Good spin has to have an element of truth.
How about this. His great-grandparents(female) were part of Sesostoris army that settled in Europe (Colchians). The descendants(male) eventually returned to AE. And moved up the ladder.(Moses?) . . . .the problem with that story , although believable , it will have to apply to the heretic(Akhaneton ). . . . .
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
As I said . I have NEVER come across a white man who can out-think me. No offence King. This is directed to THE HAMMERRRRR.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
In this thread, despite hijack attempts, I'm dealing with the few and disputed facts at hand, as is.
1. Hawass(2010). 2. The DSC broadcast in tandem with Hawass(2010). 3. Haplotype "derived" from the DSC broadcast. 3. Haplogroup indicated by that haplotype. 4. Populations of either that haplotype or its implied haplogroup. 5. Comment, question, and criticism of the above.
Everything else is extraneous and doesn't belong in my thread and I wish to heaven the moderator would purge my thread of the off topic rhetoric that's spoiling it and making it tedious to read for those who really want the material pertinent to the subject.
Some people have asked serious questions that for the most part have already been answered in posts before they even asked the question. For now I'd suggest going back and rereading the on topic posts.
As a summary recap, the given haplotype shows up in people belonging to haplogroup R1b. Currently I don't know which subclade, nor do I know if, Cruciani's haplogroup R-V88's haplotypes are in any database that I can access.
R1b is divided into African and Eurasian specific branches. The African branch is numerically small. The Eurasian branch is the vast majority. The African branch's high frequencies are mostly in central northern Africa among Chadic speakers. Afrisan speakers also have it, -- as do Niger-Congos and Nilo-Saharans -- Siwa Oasis having the highest R1b1a Egyptian frequency.
code:
African R1b1a R1b1b2 R1b1a* R1b1a4 Region Population Country Language N Total% (R-V88) (R-M269) (R-V88*) (R-V69)
C Ouldeme Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 22 95.5% 95.5% 0.0% 95.5% 0.0% C Mafa Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 8 87.5% 87.5% 0.0% 25.0% 62.5% C Mada Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 17 82.4% 82.4% 0.0% 76.5% 5.9% C Guiziga Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 9 77.8% 77.8% 0.0% 22.2% 55.6% C Other Chadic Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 4 75.0% 75.0% 0.0% 25.0% 50.0%
C Guidar Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 9 66.7% 66.7% 0.0% 22.2% 44.4% C Moundang Cameroon (Nth) NC/Adamawa 21 66.7% 66.7% 0.0% 14.3% 52.4% C Daba Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 19 42.1% 42.1% 0.0% 36.8% 5.3% C Shuwa Arabs Cameroon (Nth) AA/Semitic 5 40.0% 40.0% 0.0% 40.0% 0.0% C Massa Cameroon (Nth) AA/Chadic 7 28.6% 28.6% 0.0% 14.3% 14.3%
N Berbers from Siwa Egypt AA/Berber 93 28.0% 26.9% 1.1% 23.7% 3.2% C Fali Cameroon (Nth) NC/Adamawa 48 20.8% 20.8% 0.0% 10.4% 10.4% C Hausa Nigeria (North) AA/Chadic 10 20.0% 20.0% 0.0% 20.0% 0.0% C Fulbe Niger NC/Atlantic 7 14.3% 14.3% 0.0% 14.3% 0.0% C Kanuri Cameroon (Nth) NS/Saharan 7 14.3% 14.3% 0.0% 14.3% 0.0%
C Foulbe Cameroon (Nth) NC/Atlantic 18 11.1% 11.1% 0.0% 5.6% 5.6% C Ngambai Chad NS/Sudanic 11 9.1% 9.1% 0.0% 9.1% 0.0% C Tali Cameroon (Nth) NC/Adamawa 22 9.1% 9.1% 0.0% 4.5% 4.5% N Baharia Egypt AA/Semitic 41 7.3% 4.9% 2.4% 0.0% 4.9% N Northern Egyptians Egypt AA/Semitic 49 6.1% 4.1% 2.0% 4.1% 0.0%
N Composite Morocco AA 338 0.0% 0.3% 0.6% 0.3% 0.0%
Here are the alleles that permit placing the given haplotype among haplotypes found in R1b individuals. The closest matches are with R1b1b the non-African specific branch.
posted
I'm not an expert in the DNA field. What is the ethnicity leaning to according to these results?
Posts: 38 | Registered: Sep 2009
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So the DSC result is of a typical Western European R1b1b. The closest African R lineage being R1b1b2(M-269) found only in Northern Egypt at about 2%.
So R1b1b is not even found in Africa. . including Egypt. So the DSC is most likely stock footage/re-enactment since supposed marker doesn't even show up in modern day Egypt.
Explorer, am I reading this right?
This was all about nothing then.
Quote:
The closest matches are with R1b1b the non-African specific branch.Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
King, What do you mean "fight for the people?" This shows me that you are not interested in truth at all....what people? Looks to me like you just made the point I have been making all the time. None of this has to do with Egypt. It is all ablut modern black politicas and everyone here knows it.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
The first table shows that some of the "dreaded" West African/Nigerian also carry R1b1a and R1b1a*, albiet old. To me this only proves that Central Africa is most like the origin of the R1b1* lineage and NOT Asia. This is supported by the fact that R1b1b2 is also present in Central Africa along with the original R1*(not in Table).
The migration pattern holds the clue why R1b1b1 is in Western Europe and (R1a?) is found to the East. The migration most likely occured through Iberia and NOT along the Medit Coast line of Europe.
Blog me baby!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
It has already been pointed out that the central african componet is small. In addition Hawass and other publications have given Tut's ancestors as ancient European farmers.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
The fact is that Ancient Egyptians according to all scientific and peer reviewed sources were native Africans. The 18th dynasty originated in Upper Egypt/Lower Sudan. R1b1b would not be a lineage found on these populations.
quote: In human genetics, Haplogroup R1b is the most frequently occurring Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe, Bashkortostan[3] and amongst speakers of Chadic languages in northern parts of sub-Saharan Central Africa. R1b is also present at lower frequencies throughout Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Central Asia, and parts of North Africa. Due to European emigration it also reaches high frequencies in the Americas and Australia. While Western Europe is dominated by the R1b1b2 (R-M269) branch of R1b, the Chadic-speaking area in Africa is dominated by the branch known as R1b1a (R-V88). These represent two very successful "twigs" on a much bigger "family tree".
...
R1b1a
R1b1a is defined by the presence of SNP marker V88, the discovery of which was announced in 2010 by Cruciani et al.[12] Apart from individuals in southern Europe and Western Asia, the majority of R-V88 was found in northern and central Africa.
...
R1b1b
R1b1b is defined by the presence of SNP marker P297. In 2008 this polymorphism was recognised to combine M73 and M269 into one R1b1b cluster.[1] The majority of Eurasian R1b is within this clade, representing a very large modern population, which has been relatively well studied, therefore the branching within this clade can be explained in detail below.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
Therefore, until the details of the DNA are officially released any claims of R1b1b or any other sort of "European" genes in ancient Egypt is strictly wishful thinking.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Enough has come out to cause many to say that it really could only be R1b from Europe. Keep in mind also Doug that the royal family will often not reflect perfectly the genetics of it's population. Example, the Russian royal family have very few Russians in it by 1917. As for peer reviewed reasearch, nobody here ever does that...ever, including you.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Therefore, until the details of the DNA are officially released any claims of R1b1b or any other sort of "European" genes in ancient Egypt is strictly wishful thinking.
Definitely. As alTakuri has found, there were no old world matches with the haplotype supposedly extracted from the Discovery Channel video. Only new age matches and matches with more recent Europeans, of the type that likely managed said equipment, leading to what is a general assumption out there that this is simply stock footage (and not an actual film of Tut or his family's Y-DNA). Indeed, It seemed apparent to me from the onset that an R1b1b lineage within the 18th dynasty royal line would be beyond bazaar. It is extremely difficult to reconcile with history, archaeology, and even current population structure. This is why I'm thankful that we have people on this board who know how to properly critique such information.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Keep in mind also Doug that the royal family will often not reflect perfectly the genetics of it's population. Example, the Russian royal family have very few Russians in it by 1917.
An example only an illiterate school teacher would make. There was no European royalty, especially among "farmers", that the AE royals would have found welcoming in their bloodline.
Sorry for offending anyone but I couldnt resist replying to the school teacher on that one! lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
This is why you guys are complete morons. If nothing else, if all else fails you would resort to calling Hawass a liar. Whatever it takes to duck and dodge is what you will do. It stems from a complete lack of personal character and corruption.
The result of alll this is that those who oppose you in academia will now feel less constrained by PC and the media will further ignore your position. National Geo was insulting your silly position by putting a picture of Tut's mask on their web site with razor thin lips.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
That's the best BS you can come up with. No wonder you guys are losing ground. Many of you are riding on the coat tales of . . . . Good God man!!.
Sorry Altk. Couldn't resist.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: It has already been pointed . . . . Tut's ancestors as ancient European farmers.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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So the DSC result is of a typical Western European R1b1b. The closest African R lineage being R1b1b2(M-269) found only in Northern Egypt at about 2%.
So R1b1b is not even found in Africa. . including Egypt. So the DSC is most likely stock footage/re-enactment since supposed marker doesn't even show up in modern day Egypt.
I've run the numbers, as noted in the other thread in the "Ancient Egyptology" section, of this "RealDealT" fellow's post; and NO matches came up. Those who paid attention then, would have taken note.
Many of the questions that keep being asked here, have already been repeatedly answered in the ancient Egypt section of this board here and a whole host of *multiple* threads on this same topic about Tut's DNA. I say, for those who have made up their mind, then that it shall be. I have already made *my* position clear on this issue.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
we know what we are saying. Here is the point. Radical fringe ideas do not get much media attention. The views expressed here for the most part have never recieved much media coverage. The Bernal book really hurt you guys. Even though it got a splash in the media left most academics with a negative view of those ideas. National Geo is downtight hostile to your viewpoints. They slap at you every time they get a chance. In conclusion, you are frozen out of the mainstream media for the most past as you should be.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
^ Correction. All of our work here is based on mainstream scholarship, especially science such as genetics which you now all of a sudden are vouching for despite your denial of it before this!
Obviously you didn't pay any attention to what is said of the DNA findings...
quote:Originally posted by Tarkruri: In this table Row 1 lists 4 haplogroups E3a E3b R1a R1b. Columns 1 through 4 are percentages of the above Hgs associated with the STR allele of column 5.
Example: Row 2 shows that for STR DYS456 allele 15 haplogroup E3a has a frequency of 70% haplogroup E3b has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1a has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1b has a frequency of 36% meaning DYS456,15 favors haplogroup E3a.
Row 3 shows that for STR DYS389i allele 13 haplogroup E3a has a frequency of 74% haplogroup E3b has a frequency of 64% haplogroup R1a has a frequency of 71% haplogroup R1b has a frequency of 80% meaning DYS389i,13 favors haplogroup R1b.
Get the picture? And so it goes for the remaing STRs.
12 STRs are usually enough to hazard a Hg assignment. The more STRs the more surety of most probable Hg.
Let all this sink in your twisted little mind (if it can).
Now in respect of both the thread topic and its author, let us get back to the issue at hand...
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: A lot of these debates can be resolved by undertanding the ancient migration patterns of Africans.
What makes E3a "link" (per DJ)with West Africans. E3a supposedly originated in somewhere in western Sudan. Do you think they ALL teleported to West Africa? Some Ethiopian and Sudanese groups carry as much as 45% E3a. Upper Egyptians also carry the hg. Tut has ALMOST a good a chance being E3a as E3b. And a greater chance than R1b.
You guys really have to start analyzing the data yourself and stop regurgitating the conclusion section. Where is our resident DNA expert? Stop stroking yourself and get to work. This kid Astenb is pulling ahead.
E3a is the predominant PN2 haplogroup for West, Central, and southern Africa. That said, it doesn't mean it doesn't occur in east or northeast Africa as well. In fact the highest concentrations of E3a occurring in east Africa do so around the Nile Valley, hence it's high frequency in Sudan and Upper Egypt. The converse is true with E3b-- it occurs predominantly in East Africa, but it is also found in West and especially Northwest Africa as well. Either way, they are BOTH PN2 clade and both are sibling lineages. As far as R1b, it was explained before that while R1b predominates in Europe there is a paraclade in Africa that exist and in fact the oldest underived R1* lineages are found in West Africa. Thus, if by any chance Tut carried R1b, it is going to be that of the African variety related to Siwa Oasis peoples than some German or Irishman as idiots like Hammered believe. LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I believe Doug has taken a good approach. Let's try to tie in the DNA findings to what we know about Tut's genealogy historically. Tut and his family the 18th dynasty were natives of Waset (Thebes) in Upper Egypt. Thus, it would only be expected to use Y haplogroups common to that area first and foremost. Does anyone have a study of haplogroups from that area? I know such has been posted in this forum at least several times before.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Does Cruciani say anything about the R1b1b2 in the Siwa, Baharia, and the Northern Egyptian samples?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Djehuti is beig areless once again. He ASSUMES that the royal family will reflect the ethnic make up of the people around them. We know that often just the opposite is true. These kind of assumptions are the reason this egg headed philosophy has no credibility in the world and is not frozen out of the media.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
^ Hammered, your presumptions are ridiculous because it is based on not only modern but European models with your incessant reference to examples such as the Russian royal family being of French ancestry or the English Royal family having German ancestry. You may have a point that some royals may have different ancestry from the general populace as it was shown the Naqada royals of Nekhen were of northern Nubian ancestry from Ta-Seti. However, the point is that all the European royals were STILL European just as all the African royals including Egyptians were STILL African!
Tut's pedigree is quite clear. He and his family descend from a Waseti (Theban) elite that were local and there's no indication of ancestry from elsewhere let alone one that's not of the African continent. Myra has an excellent genealogical tree of the 18th dynasty right here if you are truly interested, and before you complain about how "afrocentric" it is, you should realize that all her material is based on mainstream Egyptological works as all of our knowledge on Egyptian history is. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Does Cruciani say anything about the R1b1b2 in the Siwa, Baharia, and the Northern Egyptian samples?
I don't know about the most recent studies but I remember from the 2004 Underhill et ales. Horn vs. Levant paper, this was written:
"M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 and M269, are confined to Egypt and Oman...
..The antiquity of the M173 backflow is implied by the total lack in sub-Saharan Africa of downstream mutations associated with the post–Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) reinhabitation of Eurasia (R1a1-M17 and R1b-M269) (Semino et al. 2000) or, later, with the Neolithic expansion (J-12f2 and G-M201) (Hammer et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; King and Underhill 2002; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004). Egypt is the only African population that is known to harbor all three M173 subtypes (R1b-M269, R1*-M173, and R1a1-M17). This unique status is most likely due to Egypt’s strategic location and its long history of interaction with Eurasia. Oman, like Egypt, also exhibits all three M173 haplogroups. The relatively high frequency of R1a1-M17 (9%) may result from the post-LGM expansion associated with this mutation. The expansion estimates of this haplogroup (11.4–3.4 ky; see table 3) support this hypothesis."
^ All the above of course was before the discovery of paragroup R-P25*, but as you can see Oman was also included as having the same status with regards to having the same R derived groups. Of course the Euroloons aren't in such a hurry to white-wash the Omani as they are with an actual African population from ancient times no less. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It's funny how usually afrocentrics are being labeled as attempting to "steal" egyptian history, but it's now crystal clear since the DC promotional footage was released, which in reality represented test results of the lab technicians themselves and not the remains of the 18th dynasty (as if they were clumsy and dumb enough to release the actual results before discovery channel cashed in from it's advertising, if ever allowed to reveal the haplogroup results, we all know the egyptian authority and their strict stance when it comes to investigating modern population relationship with those of ancient egypt), it's anyways now obvious who the real culprits are when it comes to "stealing" egyptian history. It has been really pure entertainment to witness how all these fantasies of European Ancient egyptian elites suddenly exploding throughout forums and blogs based on a small unvalidated stock footage, lol. That short clip cleverly revealed how some otherwise percieved sane people can get completly frentic and get intoxicated by oppressed fantasies of some elite ancestors as far back as early antiquity. I hope that footage was orchestered for this very purpose, a genious approach at revealing the true die hard fanatics. Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
yonis, you gys are very predictable. If there is nothing left for you the option is always to accuse those who disagree with you of fraud. This is all part of a black self loathing mentality you are all involved in. When you have nothing you simply make up an ideology and build your own history. That is where you are but the world is not listening.
To the average white person you are out of sight, out of mind. They live their lives and never think of you as a factor one way or the other. They may get concerned if you move in next door or talk to their daughters but otherwise they are indifferent towArd you.
They are certanily not interested in your made up history and do not want to hear your complaints.
Djehuti, the lights are on in your brain but nobody is home. The issue is settled for everyone but this group of self loathing negroes, including you. Nobody care what you guys think, nor do they want to hear what you think. Maybe you need a little more affirmative action to give you a little more education.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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no fanatic, just speaking the truth. You guys need to stop this black self loathing and try to carve out a place in the world, make a contribution.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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^ Apparently non of the blacks here loath themselves but YOU obviously loath them to spend so much time disparaging their African cultural heritage, yet at the same time try to claim that heritage via ancient Egypt! I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. Racism is a mental disorder, and you are obviously suffering from it BAD. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: It's funny how usually afrocentrics are being labeled as attempting to "steal" egyptian history, but it's now crystal clear since the DC promotional footage was released, which in reality represented test results of the lab technicians themselves and not the remains of the 18th dynasty (as if they were clumsy and dumb enough to release the actual results before discovery channel cashed in from it's advertising, if ever allowed to reveal the haplogroup results, we all know the egyptian authority and their strict stance when it comes to investigating modern population relationship with those of ancient egypt), it's anyways now obvious who the real culprits are when it comes to "stealing" egyptian history. It has been really pure entertainment to witness how all these fantasies of European Ancient egyptian elites suddenly exploding throughout forums and blogs based on a small unvalidated stock footage, lol. That short clip cleverly revealed how some otherwise percieved sane people can get completly frentic and get intoxicated by oppressed fantasies of some elite ancestors as far back as early antiquity. I hope that footage was orchestered for this very purpose, a genious approach at revealing the true die hard fanatics.
What is hilarious is the notion that Afrocentrics are somehow "stealing" history that is rightfully theirs to begin with since Egypt IS African, last time I checked! Yet for centuries the Euronuts have tried so hard to disassociate Egypt from its African locale and make it part of something else-- the "Near East", the "West" or some other.
By the way, this thread makes it clear the Y-chromosomal STRs were used primarily to track down PATERNITY not population lineage. A few STRs alone while giving hints about population lineage or clade aren't enough to make a clear answer. The footage of R1b in on the computer screen by geneticists was already explained on this thread to anyone with a decent attention span and reading comprehension. But obviously some foam-mouth frantic individuals would rather grab on to anything. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Does Cruciani say anything about the R1b1b2 in the Siwa, Baharia, and the Northern Egyptian samples?
I don't know about the most recent studies but I remember from the 2004 Underhill et ales. Horn vs. Levant paper, this was written:
"M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 and M269, are confined to Egypt and Oman...
..The antiquity of the M173 backflow is implied by the total lack in sub-Saharan Africa of downstream mutations associated with the post–Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) reinhabitation of Eurasia (R1a1-M17 and R1b-M269) (Semino et al. 2000) or, later, with the Neolithic expansion (J-12f2 and G-M201) (Hammer et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; King and Underhill 2002; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004). Egypt is the only African population that is known to harbor all three M173 subtypes (R1b-M269, R1*-M173, and R1a1-M17). This unique status is most likely due to Egypt’s strategic location and its long history of interaction with Eurasia. Oman, like Egypt, also exhibits all three M173 haplogroups. The relatively high frequency of R1a1-M17 (9%) may result from the post-LGM expansion associated with this mutation. The expansion estimates of this haplogroup (11.4–3.4 ky; see table 3) support this hypothesis."
^ All the above of course was before the discovery of paragroup R-P25*, but as you can see Oman was also included as having the same status with regards to having the same R derived groups. Of course the Euroloons aren't in such a hurry to white-wash the Omani as they are with an actual African population from ancient times no less.
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^ Yes, and to continue it is now known that the form of R1b predominant in Africa is R1b1a (R-V88). It predominates around central western Africa around the same areas as underived R1* but was also found by Cruciani to occur in North Africa including Egypt specifically around the Siwa Oasis population. The STR alleles processing for Tut though used that of the Eurasian or European. It makes little difference since only a few STRs were used and many of them show high percentage for E3a which it is far more likely being considering the origins of Tut's family. Also as Astenb pointed out, I wouldn't be surprised if Tut carried haplotype IV since it almost reaches 40% in Upper Egypt from what I remember of the Lucotte 2003 study. Either way it is unlikely Tut's Waseti (Theban) family of Upper Egypt had Eurasian ancestry let alone 'European' ancestry.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Have been plugging along with this, developed a flowchart and a near match R1b1b2 subclade table. I won't bother sharing either or continuing this investigation and here's the reason why.
Industry insider Thomas Krahn, of FamilyTreeDNA, is sure the DSC's 16 STR pherogram screen is "most likely a control sample from haplogroup R."
quote: Thomas Krahn FTDNA's Genomics Research Center Thomas Krahn is a Member of FTDNA's Scientific Advisory Board. Thomas is the Technical Laboratory Manager of FTDNA's Genomics Research Center in Houston. Graduated from the Technical University of Berlin with an MSC (Dipl. Ing.) in biotechnology and genetics. Thomas specializes in complex kinship testing and family reconstructions. He is an expert in developing new molecular biological methods and assays to resolve questions of biological heritage.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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