posted
Oman, the country to the East of both Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Two countries that have been linked with Africa for ages. The evidence is showing that gene flow has gone back and forth between Africa and the Arabian Peninsula probably since the Stone Age. I'm currently taking an Anthropology class in college (if I weren't graduating in the Spring I would change my major to Anthropology and become a Paleo-Anthropologist...this is a field I have great interest in). We got around to talking about sickel-cell anemia today and that's what made me remember Benin HbS. The sickle-cell haplotype that has popped up in Southern Europe and clearly sub-Saharan in origin. Well, we can now add Oman to that list. I wish someone could get ahold of this paper.
On the basis of a sample of 117 chromosomes, we have demonstrated the multicentric origin of the sickle mutation in Northern Oman. Three major haplotypes coexist: 52.1% Benin (typical and atypicals), 26.7% Arab-India, and 21.4% Bantu. These haplotypes are not autochthonous to Oman but originated elsewhere and arrived in Oman by gene flow. The distribution of haplotypes is in excellent agreement with the historical record, which establishes clear ancient contacts between Oman and sub-Sahara west Africa and explains the presence of the Benin haplotype; contacts with Iraq, Iran, present-day Pakistan, and India explain the presence of the Arab-India haplotype. More recent contacts with East Africa (Zanzibar/Mombasa) explain the presence of the Bantu haplotype. The pattern of the Arab-India haplotype in the populations of the Arabian peninsula reinforces the hypothesis that this particular mutation originated in the Harappa culture or in a nearby population and in addition reveals that the Sassanian Empire might have been the vehicle by which this Indo-European sickle mutation migrated (gene flow) to the present-day Arabian peninsula, including Oman.Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Interesting. Considering Oman's position, one would think they would have the Asiatic or Arab-Indian form of HBS.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Interesting. Considering Oman's position, one would think they would have the Asiatic or Arab-Indian form of HBS.
The distribution of haplotypes is in excellent agreement with the historical record, which establishes clear ancient contacts between Oman and sub-Sahara west Africa and explains the presence of the Benin haplotype; contacts with Iraq, Iran, present-day Pakistan, and India explain the presence of the Arab-India haplotype.Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The distribution of haplotypes is in excellent agreement with the historical record, which establishes clear ancient contacts between Oman and sub-Sahara west Africa and explains the presence of the Benin haplotype; contacts with Iraq, Iran, present-day Pakistan, and India explain the presence of the Arab-India haplotype.
I meant to say MORE, of the Asiatic type since it was found at only 26.7% compared to the Benin type at 52.1% but I didn't have time to edit it..
As for "bitch" we know it's the twit above me; he's just mad cuz I don't get along with his boyfriend and HE is too illiterate to understand the studies showing Euros evolved white skins in Europe. Awe, too bad. Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:In summary, relevant to genetic epidemiology are the following facts: little is known of the origin of the Omanis, but they became Arabized during the end of the BCE and beginning of the current era, but had strong and active contacts since before the third millennium BCE with Mesopotamia and later on with Persia, the Indus Valley, India, and Yemen. In addition, in mid 19th century, Oman had political and trade contacts with Mombasa and Zanzibar. The influx of Baluchis occurs between the 18th and the 20th centuries.
From the above it is clear that the presence of the Arab-India haplotype linkage to bS can be explained on the basis of the ancient contacts between Oman and Iraq, Iran and the Indus valley as well as with India. This Indo-European form of sickle cell anemia has been postulated to have originated in the Indus Valley [4], but definitive evidence is not available, and an alternative explanation is its origin among the Mesopotamia and/or Semitic peoples of the Arab Peninsula. Because of the links to India during the British protectorate, it is marginally possible that some of these bS-linked chromosome to the Arab-India haplotype came with immigrants recruited from the Indian tribals.
The Semitic/Mesopotamia origin of the Arab-India haplotype linked to the bS gene is unlikely. In areas adjacent to Iraq (Syria, Israel, and Jordan) [32–34], bS is linked to the Benin haplotype and not the Arab-India haplotype. Moreover, Harappan settlements have not been found around Iraq, nor was this region part of the Sassanian empire. Furthermore, the recent finding of the Arab-India haplotype linked to bS in Kuwait [10], Bahrain [9], and one SS patient from Qatar with Arab-Indian/Benin haplotype [35], as well as its presence in Oman as shown here, strengthens the idea that this Indo-European form of bS gene originated in the Indus valley, migrated (gene flow) during the Sassanian Persian empire (224–651 BCE) to the eastern portions of the Arabian Peninsula (including Oman), Iraq, Afghanistan, the Indus Valley, and the Caucasus region, when this region was united under Magian Zoroastrianism. Interestingly, the Saudi Arabia western provinces, where this haplotype does not exist or is very rare (<1) in Western Saudi Arabia [36,37], were outside of the Sassanian empire.
Everything SEEMS fine up until the last paragraph where they try to explain away Benin HbS in the Arabian Peninsula.
quote:The predominant presence of the Benin haplotype linked to the bS gene in Oman can be easily explained by the Arabization of the eastern regions of the peninsula at the dawn of the current era by peoples living in the western regions. This period encompassed the Arab slave trade in Africa that involved, at first, mostly regions in which the Benin haplotype was linked to bS. The growth of agriculture and wealth in this period most probably increased substantially the slave trade from sub-Sahara Africa, explaining the predominance today of the Benin haplotypes. In the western regions of the Arabian Peninsula, as expected, the bS gene is linked almost exclusively to the Benin haplotype. Finally, the more recent, but close contacts between Oman and Mombasa and Zanzibar, present day Tanzania, give a clear explanation for the presence of the Bantu haplotype linked to bS in this sample.
Now, I'm not one of the few genetic wizards on this board, but I'm smart enough to see when someone is trying to explain something away even if it is a genetic study. If Benin HbS is found in such strong numbers in the western regions of the Arabian peninsula (the region opposite East Africa), who can say for sure HOW the haplotype got there and when? I don't know if they realized this or not, but the summary actually contradicts the abstract. The summary basically says the Arab slave trade is what brought Benin HbS to Arabia (typical response). Of course, we know the trade happened and still continues in the Sudan to this day. But would it have had such a major genetic impact as it's had in such a short time? Either Arab slave owners were interbreeding with their Black slaves a TON or there's a DUAL explanation. That it wasn't JUST the Arab slave trade, but also ancient historical links between Africans and Arabs potentially going back thousands of years. This is actually what the abstract says (without the "thousands of years" part), but this conclusion is not taken into account in the summary (which should raise a red flag).
What are some other conclusions? Am I looking at this wrong?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by xyymanmuncher: No Mary. That is not the problem. YOU are a spineless double speaking punk. Grow some nuts then we can talk.
LOL And where did I double speak, fool?! Read my post above. The only spineless punk here is YOU. As I said, you are just mad because your nonsense was debunked one too many times and your boyfriend got beef with me (no homo).
quote:Take a position. Stop with this WE stuff. Stop flip-floping.
PUNK!!!
I already have a position and it is a VALID one unlike you. So stop grinding my nuts. Your boyfriend may like it but not I.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:In summary, relevant to genetic epidemiology are the following facts: little is known of the origin of the Omanis, but they became Arabized during the end of the BCE and beginning of the current era, but had strong and active contacts since before the third millennium BCE with Mesopotamia and later on with Persia, the Indus Valley, India, and Yemen. In addition, in mid 19th century, Oman had political and trade contacts with Mombasa and Zanzibar. The influx of Baluchis occurs between the 18th and the 20th centuries.
From the above it is clear that the presence of the Arab-India haplotype linkage to bS can be explained on the basis of the ancient contacts between Oman and Iraq, Iran and the Indus valley as well as with India. This Indo-European form of sickle cell anemia has been postulated to have originated in the Indus Valley [4], but definitive evidence is not available, and an alternative explanation is its origin among the Mesopotamia and/or Semitic peoples of the Arab Peninsula. Because of the links to India during the British protectorate, it is marginally possible that some of these bS-linked chromosome to the Arab-India haplotype came with immigrants recruited from the Indian tribals.
The Semitic/Mesopotamia origin of the Arab-India haplotype linked to the bS gene is unlikely. In areas adjacent to Iraq (Syria, Israel, and Jordan) [32–34], bS is linked to the Benin haplotype and not the Arab-India haplotype. Moreover, Harappan settlements have not been found around Iraq, nor was this region part of the Sassanian empire. Furthermore, the recent finding of the Arab-India haplotype linked to bS in Kuwait [10], Bahrain [9], and one SS patient from Qatar with Arab-Indian/Benin haplotype [35], as well as its presence in Oman as shown here, strengthens the idea that this Indo-European form of bS gene originated in the Indus valley, migrated (gene flow) during the Sassanian Persian empire (224–651 BCE) to the eastern portions of the Arabian Peninsula (including Oman), Iraq, Afghanistan, the Indus Valley, and the Caucasus region, when this region was united under Magian Zoroastrianism. Interestingly, the Saudi Arabia western provinces, where this haplotype does not exist or is very rare (<1) in Western Saudi Arabia [36,37], were outside of the Sassanian empire.
Everything SEEMS fine up until the last paragraph where they try to explain away Benin HbS in the Arabian Peninsula.
quote:The predominant presence of the Benin haplotype linked to the bS gene in Oman can be easily explained by the Arabization of the eastern regions of the peninsula at the dawn of the current era by peoples living in the western regions. This period encompassed the Arab slave trade in Africa that involved, at first, mostly regions in which the Benin haplotype was linked to bS. The growth of agriculture and wealth in this period most probably increased substantially the slave trade from sub-Sahara Africa, explaining the predominance today of the Benin haplotypes. In the western regions of the Arabian Peninsula, as expected, the bS gene is linked almost exclusively to the Benin haplotype. Finally, the more recent, but close contacts between Oman and Mombasa and Zanzibar, present day Tanzania, give a clear explanation for the presence of the Bantu haplotype linked to bS in this sample.
Now, I'm not one of the few genetic wizards on this board, but I'm smart enough to see when someone is trying to explain something away even if it is a genetic study. If Benin HbS is found in such strong numbers in the western regions of the Arabian peninsula (the region opposite East Africa), who can say for sure HOW the haplotype got there and when? I don't know if they realized this or not, but the summary actually contradicts the abstract. The summary basically says the Arab slave trade is what brought Benin HbS to Arabia (typical response). Of course, we know the trade happened and still continues in the Sudan to this day. But would it have had such a major genetic impact as it's had in such a short time? Either Arab slave owners were interbreeding with their Black slaves a TON or there's a DUAL explanation. That it wasn't JUST the Arab slave trade, but also ancient historical links between Africans and Arabs potentially going back thousands of years. This is actually what the abstract says (without the "thousands of years" part), but this conclusion is not taken into account in the summary (which should raise a red flag).
What are some other conclusions? Am I looking at this wrong?
This makes no sense. How are they going to attribute the Arab-Indian type to "Indo-Europeans"?!
The genotype first occurred LONG before there were any Indo-European languages which they now say originated in the Indus. Also, I thought it is not certain where exactly the Asiatic/Arab-Indian genotype occurred whether in India or in Arabia. How are they to say it didn't originate in Oman which is in between the two??
We know Benin HBS entered Egypt very early in neolithic times. What of Arabia? I do find it annoying that whenever genotypes associated with Africans are found outside of Africa it is due to slave trade, but mind you Oman has a significant frequency of E1b1b lineages.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You're completely ok in questioning their inferences/hypotheses -- what stays the same either way is the data.
Djehuti: though they seem to mean to refer to the HbS as a trait of folks who speak the language in question, yeah Indo-European is a language and not a people, and so using it their seems like it could be a little misleading.
My 2 cents: i would caution against the automatic lumping in of West African traits with the slave trade as Kemetian Pharaohs were found with a severe form of sickle cell and the only known severe type today is Benin HbS ...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I do find it annoying that whenever genotypes associated with Africans are found outside of Africa it is due to slave trade, but mind you Oman has a significant frequency of E1b1b lineages.
which aren't nearly as often attributed to the slave trade and i just say if you're going to do so for Africa make sure when discovering Euopean genes (predominately female) in Berbers you attribute them to the well documented slave trade in Georgians, Caucasus, Circassian people.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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This is what awlaadberry (Tariq Berry), has been saying all along. That some "West African" nations (peoples) originate from the Arabian peninsula. His book, "The Unknown Arabs", explains this. And, for more proof, my DNA tests confirms my "Arab" origins. I was very surprised Posts: 369 | From: US | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Neferet: [QB] This is what awlaadberry (Tariq Berry), has been saying all along. That some "West African" nations (peoples) originate from the Arabian peninsula. His book, "The Unknown Arabs", explains this.
please give one example
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Djehuti says, ''...and HE is too illiterate to understand the studies showing Euros evolved white skins in Europe.''
Spencer Wells, National Geographic honcho, says our ancestors probably, (his emphasis) turned lighter about 40,000 years ago.* Where is the link that says whites did in fact evolve white skins in Europe?
*Television special about a year ago in the U.S.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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I am interested in finding the relationship of the big, large bodied platyrrhine "Negroids" that occupied the early Umm an Nar strata of Oman and the Gulf in Arabia to modern Africans. The Umm an Nar type is considered by some to have been a remnant of the Obeid population of Eastern Arabia and Mesopotamia. It has features that might be considered "archaic".
I noticed such people are likely represented in modern Central Arabia.
According to archeologists similar groups may have (coming from Arabia) wound up in early Nubia (Kerma) and the Eastern Desert or area across from the Tihama in the 2nd millenium where a similar population was represented as well as more gracile goups.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Djehuti says, ''...and HE is too illiterate to understand the studies showing Euros evolved white skins in Europe.''
Spencer Wells, National Geographic honcho, says our ancestors probably, (his emphasis) turned lighter about 40,000 years ago.* Where is the link that says whites did in fact evolve white skins in Europe?
*Television special about a year ago in the U.S.
He is probably right as 25-40,000 years ago both Africoid (Cro-Magnon) as well as European type phenotypes are represented in the European paleolithic.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Neferet: [QB] This is what awlaadberry (Tariq Berry), has been saying all along. That some "West African" nations (peoples) originate from the Arabian peninsula. His book, "The Unknown Arabs", explains this.
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: This is what awlaadberry (Tariq Berry), has been saying all along. That some "West African" nations (peoples) originate from the Arabian peninsula. His book, "The Unknown Arabs", explains this. And, for more proof, my DNA tests confirms my "Arab" origins. I was very surprised
Why would you call the marker you mentioned ''Arab'' even IF it has matches in Oman, and how does this corroborate that the west-Africans mentioned in Tariqs book come from Arabia?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Mainly because I wasn't just speaking of my paternal DNA test results. I was also speaking of my maternal DNA results being of Arab (Yemeni), and Pakistani origins.
Also, haplogroup E may have originated in the "Middle East", as opposed to "Northeast Africa".
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: This is what awlaadberry (Tariq Berry), has been saying all along. That some "West African" nations (peoples) originate from the Arabian peninsula. His book, "The Unknown Arabs", explains this. And, for more proof, my DNA tests confirms my "Arab" origins. I was very surprised
Why would you call the marker you mentioned ''Arab'' even IF it has matches in Oman, and how does this corroborate that the west-Africans mentioned in Tariqs book come from Arabia?
quote:In summary, relevant to genetic epidemiology are the following facts: little is known of the origin of the Omanis, but they became Arabized during the end of the BCE and beginning of the current era, but had strong and active contacts since before the third millennium BCE with Mesopotamia and later on with Persia, the Indus Valley, India, and Yemen. In addition, in mid 19th century, Oman had political and trade contacts with Mombasa and Zanzibar. The influx of Baluchis occurs between the 18th and the 20th centuries.
From the above it is clear that the presence of the Arab-India haplotype linkage to bS can be explained on the basis of the ancient contacts between Oman and Iraq, Iran and the Indus valley as well as with India. This Indo-European form of sickle cell anemia has been postulated to have originated in the Indus Valley [4], but definitive evidence is not available, and an alternative explanation is its origin among the Mesopotamia and/or Semitic peoples of the Arab Peninsula. Because of the links to India during the British protectorate, it is marginally possible that some of these bS-linked chromosome to the Arab-India haplotype came with immigrants recruited from the Indian tribals.
The Semitic/Mesopotamia origin of the Arab-India haplotype linked to the bS gene is unlikely. In areas adjacent to Iraq (Syria, Israel, and Jordan) [32–34], bS is linked to the Benin haplotype and not the Arab-India haplotype. Moreover, Harappan settlements have not been found around Iraq, nor was this region part of the Sassanian empire. Furthermore, the recent finding of the Arab-India haplotype linked to bS in Kuwait [10], Bahrain [9], and one SS patient from Qatar with Arab-Indian/Benin haplotype [35], as well as its presence in Oman as shown here, strengthens the idea that this Indo-European form of bS gene originated in the Indus valley, migrated (gene flow) during the Sassanian Persian empire (224–651 BCE) to the eastern portions of the Arabian Peninsula (including Oman), Iraq, Afghanistan, the Indus Valley, and the Caucasus region, when this region was united under Magian Zoroastrianism. Interestingly, the Saudi Arabia western provinces, where this haplotype does not exist or is very rare (<1) in Western Saudi Arabia [36,37], were outside of the Sassanian empire.
Everything SEEMS fine up until the last paragraph where they try to explain away Benin HbS in the Arabian Peninsula.
quote:The predominant presence of the Benin haplotype linked to the bS gene in Oman can be easily explained by the Arabization of the eastern regions of the peninsula at the dawn of the current era by peoples living in the western regions. This period encompassed the Arab slave trade in Africa that involved, at first, mostly regions in which the Benin haplotype was linked to bS. The growth of agriculture and wealth in this period most probably increased substantially the slave trade from sub-Sahara Africa, explaining the predominance today of the Benin haplotypes. In the western regions of the Arabian Peninsula, as expected, the bS gene is linked almost exclusively to the Benin haplotype. Finally, the more recent, but close contacts between Oman and Mombasa and Zanzibar, present day Tanzania, give a clear explanation for the presence of the Bantu haplotype linked to bS in this sample.
Now, I'm not one of the few genetic wizards on this board, but I'm smart enough to see when someone is trying to explain something away even if it is a genetic study. If Benin HbS is found in such strong numbers in the western regions of the Arabian peninsula (the region opposite East Africa), who can say for sure HOW the haplotype got there and when? I don't know if they realized this or not, but the summary actually contradicts the abstract. The summary basically says the Arab slave trade is what brought Benin HbS to Arabia (typical response). Of course, we know the trade happened and still continues in the Sudan to this day. But would it have had such a major genetic impact as it's had in such a short time? Either Arab slave owners were interbreeding with their Black slaves a TON or there's a DUAL explanation. That it wasn't JUST the Arab slave trade, but also ancient historical links between Africans and Arabs potentially going back thousands of years. This is actually what the abstract says (without the "thousands of years" part), but this conclusion is not taken into account in the summary (which should raise a red flag).
What are some other conclusions? Am I looking at this wrong?
This information has to be looked at in the light of the indigenous Arabians some of whom were originally simply large Negroid, African-looking people (as opposed to (so called gracile "hamitic" ones). The former were found in the Bronze Age Umm An Nar culture of Oman and among their predecessors the Ubaid people of Mesopotamia and Eastern Arabia. Wish someone would do an analysis of the dna from the earliest Umm an Nar population.
They can also do such studies on members of the Kab or Cha'b(Muntafik Uqayl) and Wa'il who tend to still look these early Arabians.
Perhaps 2/3rds of Iraq's blacks for example come not from East Africans but from mainly from the Ka'b tribes who have been in Arabia for at the very least 5,000 years. It would be interesting to see how their genes match up with early Bronze Age 3rd millenium Umm an Nar (Omani)and earlier Ubaid populations of Mesopotamia and Eastern Arabia.
Former Imam of Mecca said to be descended of two clans of Wa'il (Hawilah) who are originally from Central Arabia
1) Cruciani apparently suggests that sometime between "between 23.9 and 17.3ky ago, E3b (M215) bearing chromosomes were introduced to northeast Africa from sub-Saharan East Africa. 2) The M78 mutation (E3b1) then occurred in the E3b chromosomes distributed in Northeast Africa, to be followed by a back-migration episode to sub-Saharan East Africa, sometime between 18ky and 5.9ky ago. Some chromosomes which had acquired the M78 mutation in Northeast Africa undoubtedly also made their way westward in North Africa. 3) ... " and between 20 and 6.8ky ago, M78 bearing E3b chromosomes were introduced into western Asia from Northeast Africa. Cruciani et al. 2007
I'm wondering how these Africoid groups in Arabia today fit into these conclusions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Dana: I'm wondering how these Africoid groups in Arabia today fit into these conclusions.
^They don't They are indigenous Asians, unless you have persuasive arguments to propose that they do carry said markers, and that said markers were injected in those time periods, rather than them being reflective of sporadic infusions like it happened the other way around without altering phenotypes on both sides.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by Dana: I'm wondering how these Africoid groups in Arabia today fit into these conclusions.
^They don't They are indigenous Asians, unless you have persuasive arguments to propose that they do carry said markers, and that said markers were injected in those time periods, rather than them being reflective of sporadic infusions like it happened the other way around without altering phenotypes on both sides.
I'm talking about the indigenous blacks or Africoids in Arabia who have been there since the Mesolithic and Neolithic and not descendants of recent Africans. My question again is how do they figure in the genetic findings of movement back into AFrica as Cruciani and others state. Blakc ARabians are obviously not the same people with the same genes as the Levant-affiliated Arabians.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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And interestingly West Arabia (Hijaz) was considered part of East Africa even up until the 19th century according to Richard Burton.
Ironically, though the indigenous Arabs once said a fair-skinned Arab is "inconceivable" and "unthinkable" and dark and black skinned was considered signature of being pure now only the fair-skinned ones are viewed as Arab.
Ma Huang (14th-15th century) from Zheng He's expedition described the people of Mecca saying they "are stalwart and fine looking and their limbs and faces are of a very dark purple color."
"Very dark purple"? That sounds familiar
Now supposedly this man is often called Mecca's "first black Imam". They call him a descendant of slaves although he is a pure Arab of the Taghlib and Bakr bin Wa'il tribes.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Dana: I'm wondering how these Africoid groups in Arabia today fit into these conclusions.
^They don't They are indigenous Asians, unless you have persuasive arguments to propose that they do carry said markers, and that said markers were injected in those time periods, rather than them being reflective of sporadic infusions like it happened the other way around without altering phenotypes on both sides.
I'm talking about the indigenous blacks or Africoids in Arabia who have been there since the Mesolithic and Neolithic and not descendants of recent Africans. My question again is how do they figure in the genetic findings of movement back into AFrica as Cruciani and others state. Blakc ARabians are obviously not the same people with the same genes as the Levant-affiliated Arabians.
The consensus among Paleontological studies on the matter which is becoming further and further solidified is that humans world wide resembled modern SS Africans until very recently -- the implications for a lot of the dates given for genes that hypothetically were involved in back-migrations is exactly what you suggest -- that these Eurasian people may have looked just like the African populations they came in contact with or very similarly tropical like Andamanese, native Australian or New Guineans do. Meaning folks who try and use such genes to explain slight variance in African phenotypes don't really have legs to stand on in their arguements.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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As far as I know the European phenotype goes back at least 20,000 years and the genes for red hair considerably longer. My question thus remains -what do these pure Arab people making up a large part of the apparently up until recently (15th century) BLACK Arabian peninsula have to do with the Benin Haplotypes and M78.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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That may be so about the European phenotype in certain respects but as far as i know their skin complection goes back 5.5 to 6 kya.
This is based on population genetics however -- of course general albinism goes back beyond humans.
You asked about back migrations, or migrations back into Africa -- if you are implying they may be a remnant of ancient African migrations ok. If you are trying to imply m78 or Benin sickle cell may have come from Arabia that is mistaken.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sheikh Adil Kalbani The man is likely a carrier of the Benin HbS Haplotype himself. His father is from United Arab Emirates which technically belongs to Oman.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: That may be so about the European phenotype in certain respects but as far as i know their skin complection goes back 5.5 to 6 kya.
This is based on population genetics however -- of course general albinism goes back beyond humans.
You asked about back migrations, or migrations back into Africa -- if you are implying they may be a remnant of ancient African migrations ok. If you are trying to imply m78 or Benin sickle cell may have come from Arabia that is mistaken.
If that were true there would not be paintings of full-blooded bearded longhaired rounded headed Europeans in that time painted on temple art of Anatolia and Chinese mummies of apparent or obvious European appearance and genotypes not to mention the many cultural European similarities 4000 years ago. That assertion which I know was made by some geneticisst is the epitomy of ridiculousness only second to with Mikes unsubstantiated theory that whites are albinos. In fact I'd believe the latter first if we're going to say white skin emerged 6,000 years ago.
The suggestion really makes me question the state of genetic studies or at least some of the types of people being permitted to get Ph.D.s in the area.
And no I'm not implying the Benin Haplotype came originally from Arabia. I'm interested rather in knowing if the ancient Africoid Arabians are responsible for its presence in Oman and the East.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dana, the date given is for the deleterious mutation responsible for lack of melanin and common in Europe, Central Asia and fairly common in the Mid-East and North Africa.
This doesn't imply the lack of a gradual change in skin complexion (hell both "Bushman" and certain Bantu in Southern Africa come in light skin tones with at least one study ranking the Bantu of Namibia as even lighter than the Khoi, San, or whoever there).
And as far as your comments on phenotype in paintings -- it's not as if relatively dark skinned people can't have differing phenotypes.
Some fairly dark skinned Africans are stalky while some of the blackest have sleek physiques. They there are the short peoples of Africa and Southern Asia.
A long time ago, mainland East Asia resembled the Australian Aborigine physique:
They have certain facial traits not extant in modern Africa today.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:The predominant presence of the Benin haplotype linked to the bS gene in Oman can be easily explained by the Arabization of the eastern regions of the peninsula at the dawn of the current era by peoples living in the western regions. This period encompassed the Arab slave trade in Africa that involved, at first, mostly regions in which the Benin haplotype was linked to bS. The growth of agriculture and wealth in this period most probably increased substantially the slave trade from sub-Sahara Africa, explaining the predominance today of the Benin haplotypes. In the western regions of the Arabian Peninsula, as expected, the bS gene is linked almost exclusively to the Benin haplotype. Finally, the more recent, but close contacts between Oman and Mombasa and Zanzibar, present day Tanzania, give a clear explanation for the presence of the Bantu haplotype linked to bS in this sample.
This is idiotic since slaves were not taken en masse from west Africa to Oman. The Arab slave trade of the later periods was mostly concentrated in East Africa, so shouldn't they find more of the Bantu haplotype than the Benin haplotype? Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Dana, the date given is for the deleterious mutation responsible for lack of melanin and common in Europe, Central Asia and fairly common in the Mid-East and North Africa.
This doesn't imply the lack of a gradual change in skin complexion (hell both "Bushman" and certain Bantu in Southern Africa come in light skin tones with at least one study ranking the Bantu of Namibia as even lighter than the Khoi, San, or whoever there).
And as far as your comments on phenotype in paintings -- it's not as if relatively dark skinned people can't have differing phenotypes.
Some fairly dark skinned Africans are stalky while some of the blackest have sleek physiques. They there are the short peoples of Africa and Southern Asia.
A long time ago, mainland East Asia resembled the Australian Aborigine physique:
They have certain facial traits not extant in modern Africa today.
Whatbox I'm sorry, but I don't understand whay your posting is for. White people are not black people white people and their ancestors have been around for thousands and 10s of thousands of years with their non-African bodies. I do not agree with Lyin-snake's fantasy of white Africans in the Neolithic Sahara or in Neolithic Arabia, otherwise I wouldn't be on here trying to distinguish Egyptians as an African people.
I said WHITE PEOPLE - along with the more numerous BLACK PEOPLE - are depicted on rock temples in Chatal Huyuk. I didn't say light-skinned black people!
And even if it is true that Europeans developed white skin color all of a sudden 4,000 years B.C. those people had nothing to do with the AFrican looking people that occupied southwest Asia and Europe during the Mesolithic and Neolithic as evidenced by Brace's studies and those of other scientists! The ancestors of present Europeans have their own biological and cultural evolution that begins many millenia ago.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:The predominant presence of the Benin haplotype linked to the bS gene in Oman can be easily explained by the Arabization of the eastern regions of the peninsula at the dawn of the current era by peoples living in the western regions. This period encompassed the Arab slave trade in Africa that involved, at first, mostly regions in which the Benin haplotype was linked to bS. The growth of agriculture and wealth in this period most probably increased substantially the slave trade from sub-Sahara Africa, explaining the predominance today of the Benin haplotypes. In the western regions of the Arabian Peninsula, as expected, the bS gene is linked almost exclusively to the Benin haplotype. Finally, the more recent, but close contacts between Oman and Mombasa and Zanzibar, present day Tanzania, give a clear explanation for the presence of the Bantu haplotype linked to bS in this sample.
This is idiotic since slaves were not taken en masse from west Africa to Oman. The Arab slave trade of the later periods was mostly concentrated in East Africa, so shouldn't they find more of the Bantu haplotype than the Benin haplotype?
Yea. The conclusions they came up with for why Benin hBs is so strong in Oman doesn't make sense.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] Whatbox I'm sorry, but I don't understand whay your posting is for.[qb]
Ok here's what it's for.
You mentioned a European people having a morphology distinct from Africans and it said this tied into their modern skin color.
So I said Australian Aborigines also have morphologies with characteristics not found in extant Africans, though Australian Indigenies are obviously not white. LOL.
quote:White people are not black people
Oh.
quote:And even if it is true that Europeans developed white skin color all of a sudden 4,000 years B.C. those people had nothing to do with the AFrican looking people that occupied southwest Asia and Europe during the Mesolithic and Neolithic as evidenced by Brace's studies and those of other scientists!
I agree with the above and NO one mentioned any "all of a sudden", what was mentioned were deleterious mutations to alleles, a particular one of which tends to mark the significant lack of melanin in Western Eurasia populations and those in proximate regions. Just fyi another allele (last time i checked called OCA2) is responsible for melanin regulation in populations world wide in general. Basically the gene accounting for their current extreme state of pink / peach / whiteness is what originates likely 5.5 to 6 kya but i'm not sure the method by which this time was suggested -- almost as if a bit doubtful, they for reasons i've not yet read stretch the possible time phrame upper limit to 12 kya but that's it. But that's only their present state. I'm sure they weren't all Wesley Snipes complexion before the gene derived. No one's mentioned any modern Euro looking people in Neolithic SW Asia, so i don't know where that comes from .... also East Asians in the Northern regions get just as white by way of the other major regulating gene, OCA2, so harping on the date based on that other gene is useless.
Again, it's agreed that either way it's impossible for the complexion to have been in SW Asia at the early Holocene.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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This is very interesting because most of the people of Benin are from the Yoruba tribe and the Yoruba tribe claims descent from Ya'arub the son of Qahtaan. It is said that their name - Yoruba - is from Ya'arub.
The people of Oman and Yemen are also from Ya'arub the son of Qahtaan. In fact, there was a dynasty in Oman called the Ya'aruba Dynasty. It was started by a descendant of Ya'arub.
"Since the expulsion of the Portuguese no other foreign power has ever occupied Oman, apart from a brief period when the Persians made a partial occupation. The Ya'aruba Imams introduced a period of renaissance in Omani fortunes both at home and abroad, uniting the country and bringing prosperity. It was under the Ya'aruba dynasty that many of the imposing castles and beautiful buildings that have been restored recently, such as the fort at Nizwa and the Palace at Jabrin, were built.
By the middle Ages, Oman had established itself as a prosperous seafaring nation, sending dhows from its great port at Sohar to trade with merchants in far flung destinations. It seems likely that at this time Sohar was one of the largest and most important cities in the Arab world.
In the early 16th century the powerful Portuguese trading empire sought to extend its influence and reduce Oman’s control over the thriving Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean routes. Portuguese troops invaded Oman and captured some of the coastal areas, occupying them for up to 150 years before being defeated by Sultan bin Saif Al Ya’rubi.
During the Ya’ruba period (1624 – 1744) Oman entered an era of prosperity at home and abroad, and many of the Sultanate’s historic buildings and forts date from this time. However, expansion ended when civil war erupted between rival Omani tribes over the election of a new Imam. Persian forces seized the opportunity to invade and some coastal areas found themselves under foreign occupation once again."
Shaikh Adam Abdellah Al Illori says that the Yoruba of "West Africa" are a branch of the descendants of Ya'arub found in "North Africa" who separated from the descendants of Ya'arub in the Yemen and Hijaz. Shaikh Adam Abdellah Al Illori is from the Yoruba tribe.
The etymology of the name "Yoruba" can be traced to the Arabic or Arhamaic language. I am not too good in referencing posts, I would have referred to you the post in which I discussed your question. Let's look at Yoruba and the believed founder of the tribe, Lamurudu.
The word Yoruba was used to refer to a people that emigrated from an Arab culture. As you head North and encounter different languages its pronounciation gets closer to "Ya Arab". Ya Arab stand for the "Children of Arab" or "People of Arab" or "Descent of Arab".
The Hausas call Yoruba "Bayarabe". They call Arabs, "Balarabe" . Sometimes they will say "Yarabawa" for Yoruba and "Larabawa" for Arab. Who were the Arabs at the time of Lamurudu arriving in Ife? They were idol worshippers who believed in gods. Lamurudu brought that tradition to Ife and instituted it as the religion of the Yorubas. The Arab land covered all along the eastern edge of Africa to the horn by Somalia and into Yemen and up into what today is Saudi Arbia. Lamurudu was an Arab of Axum descent. Axum was in what is now Ethiopia. Yorubas are not the only Arabian migrants to current Nigeria. The Shuwa Arabs are too. They are found in Adamawa and Borno and they are of Sudan descent.
To explain Lamurudu (Oduduwa's father), let's look at two names; Abdul Hamid and Al Amin. When pronounced in Yoruba, the first becomes Lamidi and the second Lamina. There are people today in Yorubaland called Lamidi and Lamina and if you tell them its correctly spelled Abdul Hamid and Al Amin they will dispute it. Using this analogy, Lamurudu would be something like Al Marud. Lamurudu has no translation in Yoruba language, it is widely acknowledged that its a foreign name.
The story of Lamurudu beaing a man of Eastern origin is true. He emigrated from Ethiopia. Now did every Yoruba emigrated with him and are of Eastern origin? NO!"
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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^ Would be interesting to be able to find out if the Y chromosomes of the elites/nobility of Yorubas varies in pattern from the general Yoruba population.
Not that it should matter but it might reveal the migration...
-------------------- state of mind Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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AW come on awlaadberry !! the Yoruba are Arabs?? is there any linguistic or cultural evidence that the sculpture producing Yoruba and language was at anytime even practice or spoken in the peninsular??
During the Ya’ruba period (1624 – 1744) Oman entered an era of prosperity at home and abroad, and many of the Sultanate’s historic buildings and forts date from this time. However, expansion ended when civil war erupted between rival Omani tribes over the election of a new Imam. Persian forces seized the opportunity to invade and some coastal areas found themselves under foreign occupation once again.
Except for the similarity in name how does that make the the Yoruba into Omanis and they would be Islamic rather than Animist at that date according to the link plus the Yorubas have been living in that part of Africa well before the 18th century.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Islam I believe was practiced among Yorubas before Christianity.
In fact, Islam is still more popular among "non modernised" Yorubas and unless there's been a recent change there are more Yoruba muslims that christians.
Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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I know this doesn't have anything to do with "Jews" (Hebrews) but, it does explain some very old migrations from Yemen into "North Africa". Since this video is related to my maternal DNA, I thought it could be related as to how some peoples ended up where they are today...I could be wrong though.
During the Ya’ruba period (1624 – 1744) Oman entered an era of prosperity at home and abroad, and many of the Sultanate’s historic buildings and forts date from this time. However, expansion ended when civil war erupted between rival Omani tribes over the election of a new Imam. Persian forces seized the opportunity to invade and some coastal areas found themselves under foreign occupation once again.
Except for the similarity in name how does that make the the Yoruba into Omanis and they would be Islamic rather than Animist at that date according to the link plus the Yorubas have been living in that part of Africa well before the 18th century.
What date are you talking about? I simply gave you an example of other descendants of Ya'arub who called themselves Ya'aruba and they are from Oman. They call their dynasty the Ya'aruba Dynasty because they are descendants of Ya'arub. Also, the Yoruba are called Yoruba because they are descendants of Ya'arub.
The similarities in name of other descendants of Ya'arub and the fact that the Yoruba say that they are from Ya'arub and the fact that the Yoruba language has similarities with the Arabic language and the fact that the Yoruba, the Omanis, and the Yemenis all carry the Benin sickle cell haplotype is all proof that the Yoruba are descendants of Ya'arub like the Omanis and Yemenis. How much more proof do you need???
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Omanis, and the Yemenis all carry the Benin sickle cell haplotype So all Omanis and the Yemenis carry the Benin sickle cell Sickle-cell gene mutation ,please provide a link with evidence. Whats a sickle cell haplotype?
No pulp the Benin sickle cell mutation is from the area of what is known as Benin in west Africa click the link on the Rastalivewire it explains more.
The Benin hbs originated in Benin not arrived there from else-where and having the gene is not the same as carrying culture..meaning those with the gene need not came directly from Benin but had ancestors who came from that general area.
Awlaadberry the ancestors of the Yoruba goes waay back to the time of the Nok cultures
No pulp the Benin sickle cell mutation is from the area of what is known as Benin in west Africa click the link on the Rastalivewire it explains more.
The Benin hbs originated in Benin not arrived there from else-where and having the gene is not the same as carrying culture..meaning those with the gene need not came directly from Benin but had ancestors who came from that general area.
Awlaadberry the ancestors of the Yoruba goes waay back to the time of the Nok cultures
There is no hard evidence that the Yoruba go back to the Nok culture. It's just a theory based on conjecture. The Yoruba say that they formed as a people in Ife and that they are from Ya'arub the son of Qahtan. And Ya'arub lived long before the formation of Ife.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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