J-M267 (J1) was found in all North Africans except the Tuareg and Amizmiz Valley Moroccan and Tunisia (Jerbian and Bou Omrane Berbers) (other Tunisan berbers up to 32%)
Oddly Tuareg speak a language associated with Semitic
highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia, although they and the far off Khartom Sudanese, also who have high frequencies have low diversity of J1
The J-M267 in the Caucasus is also notable because most of it is not within the J-P58 subclade.
Jews (Portugal/Trás-os-Montes) 57 12.3% NA NA Nogueiro 2009
____________________________________________
The P58 marker which defines subgroup J-P58 was announced in (Karafet 2008), but had been announced earlier under the name Page08 in (Repping 2006 and called that again in Chiaroni 2011). It is very prevalent in many areas where J-M267 is common, especially in parts of North Africa and throughout the Arabian peninsula. It also makes up approximately 70% of the J-M267 among the Amhara of Ethiopia. Notably, it is not common among the J-M267 populations in the Caucasus.
Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey toward Mediterranean Anatolia, Ismaili from southern Syria, Jordan, Palestine and northern Egypt." They further propose that the Zarzian material culture may be ancestral. They also propose that this movement of people may also be linked to the dispersal of Semitic languages by hunter-herders, who moved into arid areas during periods known to have had low rainfall. Thus, while other haplogroups including J-M172 moved out of the area with agriculturalists who followed the rainfall, populations carrying J-M267 remained with their flocks (King 2002 and Chiaroni 2008).
According to this scenario, after the initial neolithic expansion involving Semitic languages, which possibly reached as far as Yemen, a more recent dispersal occurred during the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age (approximately 3000–5000 BCE), and this involved the branch of Semitic which leads to the Arabic language. The authors propose that this involved a spread of some J-P58 from the direction of Syria towards Arab populations of the Arabian Peninsula and Negev.
Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region
We analyzed 40 single nucleotide polymorphism and 19 short tandem repeat Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential source populations. We also employed a lexicostatistical approach to reconstruct the history of the languages of the North Caucasian family spoken by the Caucasus populations. We found a different major haplogroup to be prevalent in each of four sets of populations that occupy distinct geographic regions and belong to different linguistic branches. The haplogroup frequencies correlated with geography and, even more strongly, with language. Within haplogroups, a number of haplotype clusters were shown to be specific to individual populations and languages. The data suggested a direct origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation, and genetic drift in situ. Comparison of genetic and linguistic reconstructions covering the last few millennia showed striking correspondences between the topology and dates of the respective gene and language trees and with documented historical events. Overall, in the Caucasus region, unmatched levels of gene–language coevolution occurred within geographically isolated populations, probably due to its mountainous terrain.
Strikingly, language rather than geography tended to have a larger influence on the genetic structuring in the Caucasus (tables 3 and 4). Language and geography are also closely linked with each other, probably because of the mountainous nature of the Caucasus region where languages are often restricted to a few valleys. In this context, the slightly higher dependence of genetic structure on language could be explained by marriage and individual migration practices, linking linguistically similar populations in preference. For example, Circassians, who are geographically situated between Adyghes and Ossets, might receive more gene flow from Adyghes, who speak a similar language, than from Ossets who differ in their language and culture.
Although occupying a boundary position between Europe and the Near East, all four major Caucasus haplogroups show signs of a Near Eastern rather than European origin (fig. 2, supplementary fig. 1, Supplementary Material online). These four haplogroups reach their maximum (worldwide) frequencies in the Caucasus (table 2, fig. 2). They are either shared with Near East populations (G2a3b1-P303 and J2a4b*-M67(xM92)) or have ancestral lineages present there (G2a1*-P16(xP18) and J1*-M267(xP58)). Typical European haplogroups are very rare (I2a-P37.2) or limited to specific populations (R1a1a-M198) in the Caucasus.
This pattern suggests unidirectional gene flow from the Near East toward the Caucasus, which could have occurred during the initial Paleolithic settlement or the subsequent Neolithic spread of farming. Archaeological data do not indicate a Near Eastern influence on the Neolithic cultures in the North Caucasus (Bader and Tsereteli 1989; Bzhania 1996; Masson et al. 1982), whereas Neolithization in the Transcaucasus was part of a Neolithic expansion that perhaps paralleled those occurring in Europe (Balaresque et al. 2010) and North Africa (Arredi et al. 2004). However, the current genetic evidence does not allow us to distinguish between Paleolithic and Neolithic models in shaping the genetic landscape of the North Caucasus.
All of these genetic findings are based solely on Y-chromosomal data. This choice was prompted by the high interpopulation variation in the data set (and therefore the best detection of the differences) compared with mitochondrial DNA and autosomal markers. However, one may wonder if the pattern of the entire gene pool is different from its Y-chromosomal subset. In the context of this study, languages are typically learned from the maternal side (we say “mother tongue”; Beauchemin et al. 2010). Thus, the observed similarity between the distributions of languages and genes might become even more evident if full-genome data, incorporating maternally inherited information as well, become available; this possibility may be explored in future studies.
Conclusions
Combining genetic and linguistic findings, we now propose a model of the evolution of the Caucasus populations. The final tree (fig. 6) was obtained by merging the genetic clusters with the background linguistic tree. We conclude that the Caucasus gene pool originated from a subset of the Near Eastern pool due to an Upper Paleolithic (or Neolithic) migration, followed by significant genetic drift, probably due to isolation in the extremely mountainous landscape. This process would result in the loss of some haplogroups and the increased frequency of others. The Caucasus meta-population underwent a series of population (and language) splits. Each population (linguistic group) ended up with one major haplogroup from the original Caucasus genetic package, whereas other haplogroups became rare or absent in it. The small isolated population of the Kubachi, in which haplogroup J1*-M267(xP58) became virtually fixed (99%, table 2), exemplifies the influence of genetic drift there.
Dagestan Region, Russia
RUSSIA CAUCASIA GEORGIA KUBACHI MAN WITH KINJAL DAGGER 99% J1 Kubachi silversmith, Newsweek magazine 99% J1 Sunni Muslim man, Dagestan 1907 Dagestani couple posed outdoors for a portrait. Date 1904
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I think it'a safe to say that the Tuareg are mostly North African ancestry of between 9,000 – 3,000 years ago. And their non-African ancestry is more European than it is Arab
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
Luísa Pereira
There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20% ; see Arredi et al. 2004), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50%; see Semino et al. 2004).
It is curious that, at least for the Tuareg maternal gene pool, there are no mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion from the Near East despite being present in considerable frequencies in other North African populations. For example, the conservation of the high frequency and remarkable internal variability of T1 haplotypes within the distant and relatively isolated Egyptian oasis of el-Hayez led to an estimation of local expansion at around 5,138 ± 3,633 YBP.36 There are no indications yet of the ages of local expansions in the more central and western regions of North Africa, which could contribute further insights for its absence in the Tuareg population as a whole.
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe 7,10,17,25,28,35 and most probably North Africa29,30 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15,000 – 13,000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (SM5D). Both H1 and H3 commonly display rather low diversity in the D-loop region, but the
The overall West Eurasian mtDNA gene pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (H1, H3 and V) seems to favour a rather a North African heritage.48 The only exception is the absence of the otherwise rare U5b that might have rather come to Africa via the Near East, and then drifted to higher frequencies only in some isolated populations such as in the Egyptian oasis Siwa.49 The absence of U6 can further be explained by genetic drift during the expansion of this haplogroup within North Africa.49 Note that U6 was observed at low frequencies in several population groups from the Chad Basin, such as in the Nilo-Saharan Kanuri and the Afro-Asiatic Masa.34 Relationships with the peoples of Eastern Sudan (the Beja) as pointed to by the study of classical genetic markers2 cannot yet be disregarded here as there is still no mtDNA of the Beja people available for study. However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula50 And the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.29,30 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post- LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9,000 and ~3,000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8,000 ± 2,400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (8,800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (3,600 years ago). peer-00518310, version 1 - 17 Sep 2010
Interestingly, for the Y-chromosome, the dominant haplogroup in North Africa as well as the Tuareg is E1b1b1b. This haplogroup was associated with Neolithic diffusion in North Africa, with an age estimation of 2,800-9,800 YBP.44, but the lower resolution of the Y-chromosome tree did not allow us to investigate this issue further. Nonetheless, disregarding whether they are in fact Neolithic, the ages for the mtDNA and Y- chromosome lineages of North African origin observed in southern Tuareg are consistent with the same period, between 9,000 – 3,000 years ago.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Bombarding the forum, as if you bring proof, however the loci and alleles remain absent in your posts. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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you dont know what spam is. You think spam is a peer reviewed article that you dont agree with.
I think spam is when somebody else posts an article and then somebody else comes in without anlaysis tries to bury the article with long posts one after the other, 4 or 5 in a row of other articles, destroying readability and dialog of a thread. xyyman even complained about it called you a kneejerk overloader Everybody knows that is your M.O.
This might be the first thread to discuss as a main topic why some berbers have hap J and others don't
As we see people like the Dagestan in Russia can have 60-99% Haplogroup J and look like Caucus peoples
although the origin is believed to be near eastern
Reading that the Tuareg have no hg J ancestry is what inspired me to do this thead. I was surprised by that.
If you look at the top of the thread at the HG frequencies it's pretty interesting the variation, even in neighboring regions
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you dont know what spam is. You think spam is a peer reviewed article that you dont agree with.
I think spam is when somebody else posts an article and then somebody else comes in without anlaysis tries to bury the article with long posts one after the other, 4 or 5 in a row of other articles, destroying readability and dialog of a thread. xyyman even complained about it called you a kneejerk overloader Everybody knows that is your M.O.
This might be the first thread to discuss as a main topic why some berbers have hap J and others don't
As we see people like the Dagestan in Russia can have 60-99% Haplogroup J and look like Caucus peoples
although the origin is believed to be near eastern
Reading that the Tuareg have no hg J ancestry is what inspired me to do this thead. I was surprised by that.
Spam is what you do, when your insignificant shyt for brain is posting, without thinking.
Spamming is what you do, when you try to force your East Africa can't be the origin of Hg J. So therefor I am going to bombard the forum...
However, when it's being asked or addressed to show actual alleles and locus, I'm simply going to be the best I can be, the ignoramus. Simply ignore. And continue bombarding the forum.
I actually analyze the articles, to what degree it's coherent and correct. You on the other hand....shyt for brain don't think. Now, that's fundamentally a major problem.
ALLELES, LOCUS is what I asked, not whether Dagestan in Russia can have 60-99% Haplogroup J and look like Caucus peoples, weirdo!
And you keep posting genetic studies about hypothesis expansions, into the Sahara-Sahel, however, when being asked to show and proof this with archeology and anthropology...there is no answer, hmm the only answer I get as a retribution is, you're spamming. Like you have been doing for the last couple of years.
We deal with small ancient segments of people. Why are you surprised, as if this was never shown? Hmm, because you are shyt for brain?
Surprised, phhhhu.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: mainly African but also Ttan 33% R1b, like I said more European than Arab for the admixture
now post the mitochondrial if you dare
And how is it European?
Y-chromosome R-M343 African lineages and sickle cell disease reveal structured assimilation in Lebanon
Instead of asking me questions, start answering my question for a change. Show me the alleles and locus of Hg J.
quote:quote: The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R ) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1).
--Fulvio Cruciani et al (2011)
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
quote: Sub-Saharan African Y chromosome diversity is represented by five main haplogroups (hgs): A, B, E, J, and R (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Tishkoff et al. 2007).
Hgs J and R are geographically restricted to eastern and central Africa, respectively, whereas hg E shows a wider continental distribution (see also Berniell-Lee et al. 2009; Cruciani et al. 2010).
[...]
--Chiara Batini † et al.
Mol Biol Evol (2011) 28 (9): 2603-2613. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msr089 First published online: April 4, 2011
Signatures of the Preagricultural Peopling Processes in Sub-Saharan Africa as Revealed by the Phylogeography of Early Y Chromosome Lineages
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: mainly African but also Ttan 33% R1b, like I said more European than Arab for the admixture
now post the mitochondrial if you dare
quote: Abstract We have sought to identify signals of assimilation of African male lines in Lebanon by exploring the association of sickle cell disease (SCD) in Lebanon with Y-chromosome haplogroups that are informative of the disease origin and its exclusivity to the Muslim community. A total of 732 samples were analyzed, including 33 SCD patients from Lebanon genotyped for 28 binary markers and 19 short tandem repeats on the non-recombinant segment of the Y chromosome. Genetic organization was identified using populations known to have influenced the genetic structure of the Lebanese population, in addition to African populations with high incidence of SCD. Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M343 sub-lineages distinguish between sub-Saharan African and Lebanese Y chromosomes. We detected a limited penetration of SCD into Lebanese R-M343 carriers, restricted to Lebanese Muslims. We suggest that this penetration brought the sickle cell gene along with the African R-M343, probably with the Saharan caravan slave trade.
Y-chromosome R-M343 African lineages and sickle cell disease reveal structured assimilation in Lebanon.
AuthorsHaber M, et al. Show all Journal J Hum Genet. 2011 Jan;56(1):29-33. doi: 10.1038/jhg.2010.131. Epub 2010 Oct 28.
Affiliation Medical School, The Lebanese American University, Beirut, Lebanon.
Not the last sentence by the author. As if these African Muslims could not travel, migrate or go for hajj.
No, it had to be slavery, what else could it be? Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I knew he wouldn't put up the Tuareg mitochondrial. It's a cover up
any excuse not to post that branch chart, lol
I knew you wouldn't answer my question on alleles and locus.
You are one a directional bigot.
Always demanding answers, but never responding when being asked for an answer.
Thus far, no alleles, no locus, no archeological and anthropological evidence.
Mere excuses and distractions to not show your inconvenience. Yet, you want to go into branch charts? Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Nobody is saying J1 is African; however YOU are arguing that J1 is of northern origin, specifically from the Caucasus, judging by your posts here as well as this silly map you posted in another thread:
Again, there is no conclusive evidence that supports your claims. You keep repeating that there are Caucasian groups that display the highest frequencies of J1, yet this could be due simply to founder effect as they don't display the most diversity J1 which is found in Arabia. Not to mention that its ancestral clade original J* is found only in southern Arabia and the coastal Horn region with the highest frequency in Soqotra Island.
As Troll Patrol says, why don't you cite anything explaining the alleles, loci, MRCA mutations??
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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however YOU are arguing that J1 is of northern origin, specifically from the Caucasus, judging by your posts here as well as this silly map you posted in another thread:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: E and J1 is of Great Lakes/Sudan origin.
The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations. Chiaroni J,
Abstract Haplogroup J1 is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. We report the frequency and YSTR diversity data for its major sub-clade [J1e]. The overall expansion time estimated from 453 chromosomes is 10,000 years. Moreover, the previously described J1 [DYS388=13] chromosomes, frequently found in the Caucasus and eastern Anatolian populations, were ancestral to J1e and displayed an expansion time of 9000 years. For J1e,{b} the Zagros/Taurus mountain region [Iran/Iraq] displays the highest haplotype diversity,{/b] although the J1e frequency increases toward the peripheral Arabian Peninsula. The southerly pattern of decreasing expansion time estimates is consistent with the serial drift and founder effect processes. The first such migration is predicted to have occurred at the onset of the Neolithic, and accordingly J1e parallels the establishment of rain-fed agriculture and semi-nomadic herders throughout the Fertile Crescent. Subsequently, J1e lineages might have been involved in episodes of the expansion of pastoralists into arid habitats coinciding with the spread of Arabic and other Semitic-speaking populations.
revious studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.8 However, before the middle first millennium CE, a variety of Semitic languages were spoken throughout the Middle East. Recently, historical linguists9 have constructed novel classification trees of the Semitic languages in which the first split from the root of Proto-Semitic separated into East Semitic [Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Eblaite] and West Semitic. West Semitic then partitions into Ethiopic, Modern South Arabian [spoken in areas of Oman and Yemen] and the core cluster of Central Semitic. Central Semitic would then include the languages of Yemen [Old South Arabian], Arabic and the Northwest Semitic languages of the Levant – Ugaritic, Hebrew, Phoenician and Aramaic.9, 10, 11, 12 Not only have linguists reconstructed the phylogeny of Semitic languages, but also they have dated Proto-Semitic's age to the Chalcolithic Era, circa 5500-3500 BCE.13 In addition to the common Semitic language substrate found throughout the Levant and Arabian Peninsula, recent archeological studies have shown an early presence [ca. 6000–7000 BCE] of domesticated herding in the arid steppe desert regions.14
Table 1 shows the average variance and expansion times of J1e with their linguistic and archeological correlates from those populations with five or more samples; the Assyrians of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran were amalgamated into one group and the Arab populations of Qatar, UAE and Saudi Arabia were also combined. The mean variance across the 19 populations in Table 1 correlates significantly with latitude [r=0.36, P<0.035, two-tailed Kendall's τ] and nonsignificantly with longitude [r=0.02, NS]. This result supports the hypothesis that the origin of J1e is likely in the more northerly populations in Table 1 and spreads southward into the Arabian Peninsula [Figure 1f]. The high YSTR variance of J1e in Turks and Syrians [Table 1, Figure 1e] supports the inference of an origin of J1e in nearby eastern Anatolia. Moreover, the network analysis of J1e haplotypes [Figure 2b] shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with star burst expansion in the Arabian Desert.
The series of expansion times [Table 1] is also consistent with a subsequent Neolithic range expansion of J1e from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey toward Mediterranean Anatolia, Ismaili from southern Syria, Jordan, Palestine and northern Egypt. Although there is a trend between the mean variances and the expansion time estimates, the latter do not uniformly increase with variance [Table 1] as some populations likely have more than one J1e founder. Support for this explanation involves cases in which there is the presence of two distinct varieties of YCAII chromosomes, namely, 19, 22 and 22, 22, whereas those with low mean diversity typically just reflect the 22, 22 class [Supplementary Table 2]. A network analysis of J1e chromosomes [Figure 2b] also reflects situations of multiple founders.
Although the haplogroup diversification within J1e remains incomplete, the somewhat rare J1e1-M368 provides an insight into the geographical origin of J1e. It has been reported both in the Black Sea region of Turkey1 and Dagestan in the northeast Caucasus.
Table 1 lists the current languages and the first millennium BCE Iron Age languages spoken in the geographical regions from which the samples were collected. Tracking back to the Iron Age, all the branches of the Central Semitic languages are represented – NW Semitic, Arabic and Old South Arabian in the Levantine and Yemeni sampling regions. The Assyrian samples and Iraqi Kurdish samples have been drawn from areas in Northern Mesopotamia speaking East Semitic languages at the time. The current data suggest an origin of J1e in the general area of eastern Turkey/northern Iraq associated with the Zarzian horizon,23, 24, 25 as they have similar early pre-agricultural expansions [16 kya, Table 1].
A recent Bayesian analysis of Semitic languages supports an origin in the Levant 5750 years ago and subsequent arrival in the Horn of Africa from Arabia 2800 years ago,11 thus providing an indirect support of our phylogenetic clock estimates. It is important to note that the glottochronological dates yield estimates for the break-up and expansion of the Proto-Semitic language. Proto-Semitic, itself, may have been spoken in a localized linguistic community for millennia before its bifurcation into the East and West Semitic branches. In summary, haplogroup J1e data suggest an advance of the Neolithic period agriculturalists/pastoralists into the arid regions of Arabia from the Fertile Crescent and support an association with a Semitic linguistic common denominator.1
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ You forgot to mention that J1's ancestor original J* is found also found in southern Arabia as well as the Horn.
As Lyinass said in another thread, 'don't be turnin over rocks that should be left alone'. LOLPosts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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J-M267 (J1) was found in all North Africans except the Tuareg and Amizmiz Valley Moroccan and Tunisia (Jerbian and Bou Omrane Berbers) (other Tunisan berbers up to 32%)
Oddly Tuareg speak a language associated with Semitic
I forgot to ask exactly what is so "odd" about it? You do realize that there are millions more Africans further south who speak languages associated with Semitic i.e. Chadic speakers who don't carry J types at all. Meanwhile there are Ethiopians who actually speak Semitic language yet hg J is the minority there unlike North African countries overall.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^She thinks the origin of Semitic speakers and the origin of J-M267 are intertwined, which they aren't. She then comes up with a non-sequitur about the linguistic closeness between Tamazight and Semitic (which, if we take her post at face value, bizarrely excludes other branches of Afrasan) and infers that the origin of both J-M267 and Berber are intertwined. This is wrong too. J-M267's history only later became intertwined with the histories of both populations, during the Neolithic and Copper Age.
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Actually the theme of this thread is that the Tuareg and some berber groups don't have as much J1 or any J1 in some cases compared to other berbers, yet some of the same have different combinations of HV, U5,U6,
My conclusion is that these specific berbers have E3 as well as some Eurasian admixture but not the J1 that is common on the Arabian penninsula and to a lessar extent East Africa and other places. So maybe Tuaregs and some other partciualr berbers non African admixture is more European than Arab
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You forgot to mention that J1's ancestor original J* is found also found in southern Arabia as well as the Horn.
As Lyinass said in another thread, 'don't be turnin over rocks that should be left alone'. LOL
No, I did not forget about it.
It the pattern is logic, since M89 is cohesive to Northeast Africa. From there you'll get J* => J-M267.
This Hg J* is relatively young. And the patterns of migrations have to be studied.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Actually the theme of this thread is that the Tuareg and some berber groups don't have as much J1 or any J1 in some cases compared to other berbers, yet some of the same have different combinations of HV, U5,U6,
My conclusion is that these specific berbers have E3 as well as some Eurasian admixture but not the J1 that is common on the Arabian penninsula and to a lessar extent East Africa and other places. So maybe Tuaregs and some other partciualr berbers non African admixture is more European than Arab
Some have this and some have that. And small segments of populations have lead the bottleneck occurrences. Giving a diverse set in the buildup. These segments of populations increased/ decreased giving us modern day populations/ ethnic groups.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I have to admit you do have the unique ability to quickly digup research papers, which me think you are a team. But you, Lioness, have the bad habit of not reading it and posting something that contradicts you hypothesis. That is why you come across as incompetent .At least understand the article befotre you post. Some heavy hitters put their names to this one------a bit dated by my standards but informative nevertheess. I semi-respect the work published by these authors. Spencer Wells I am a bit leary with. Posted by Lioness - Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region(2011)
Wolfgang Haak, Colin Renfrew, R. Spencer Wells, and The Genographic Consortium. etc
Associate editor: Sarah Tishkoff
Abstract We analyzed 40 single nucleotide polymorphism and 19 short tandem repeat Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential SOURCE populations.
The data suggested a direct origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation, and genetic drift in situ.
COMMENT: {THE QUESTION IS – WHAT ARE THE “NEAR EAST” POPULATION. I LOOKED IT UP AND SUDAN AND ALGERIA ARE INCLUDED, ETHIOPIA AND YEMEN WAS NOT INCLUDED ON THIS ONE}
After approximately 1,500 YBP, this pattern changed, and most migration came to the North Caucasus from the East European steppes to the north rather than from the Near East to the south. These new migrants were Iranian speakers (Scythians, Sarmatians, and their descendants, the Alans) who arrived around 3,000–1,500 YBP, followed by Turkic speakers about 500–1,000 YBP. The new migrants forced the INDIGENOUS CAUCASIAN population to relocate from the foothills into the high mountains. Some of the incoming steppe dwellers also migrated to the highlands, mixing with the indigenous groups and acquiring a sedentary lifestyle (Abramova 1989; Melyukova 1989; Ageeva 2000). COMMENT: SOMEONE HELP ME OUT HERE. ARE THEY SAYING THE SUDANESE ARE THE INDIGENOUS CAUCASIANS IN AROUND THE BLACK SEA. CASS YOU READING THIS. LOL???
A later survey of the Y-chromosomal composition of the Caucasus was published in Russian only, with phylogenetic resolution no deeper than the designation of haplogroups G-M201, J1-M267, and J2-M172 (Kutuev et al. 2010).
We did not include Turkic-speaking populations as their recent immigration from Eastern Europe and Central Asia could possibly blur the deeper genetic pattern
Although occupying a boundary position between Europe and the Near East, all four major Caucasus haplogroups show signs of a Near Eastern rather than European origin (fig. 2, supplementary fig. 1, Supplementary Material online). THESE FOUR HAPLOGROUPS REACH THEIR MAXIMUM (WORLDWIDE) FREQUENCIES IN THE CAUCASUS[ (table COMMENT: SO ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE HIGH FREQUENCY THEY ARE NOT THE SOURCE THE AFRICAN/ARABIAN HAPLOGROUPS.
2, fig. 2). They are either shared with Near East populations (G2a3b1-P303 and J2a4b*-M67(xM92)) or have ancestral lineages present there (G2a1*-P16(xP18) and J1*- M267(xP58)). Typical European haplogroups are very rare (I2a-P37.2) or limited to specific populations (R1a1a-M198) in the Caucasus. This pattern suggests unidirectional gene flow from the Near East toward the Caucasus, which could have occurred during the initial Paleolithic settlement or the subsequent Neolithic spread of farming. Archaeological data do not indicate a Near Eastern influence on the Neolithic cultures in the North Caucasus (Bader and Tsereteli 1989; Bzhania 1996; Masson et al. 1982), whereas Neolithization in the Transcaucasus was part of a Neolithic expansion that perhaps paralleled those occurring in Europe (Balaresque et al. 2010) and North Africa (Arredi et al. 2004). However, the current genetic evidence does not allow us to distinguish between Paleolithic and Neolithic models in shaping the genetic landscape of the North Caucasus.
The small isolated population of the Kubachi, in which haplogroup J1*-M267(xP58) became virtually fixed( 99%,table2),exemplifies the influence of genetic drift there.
Also ------* Reading that DNATrbies pice you cited. It shows that the Scythians and the Thracians have the highest Sub-Saharan gentic material. I wonder why? Again you did not read what you posted.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I hate being right..so often. J1 did NOT spread with Islam. Most likely an African origin. But definitely NOT a Caucasus origin and spread pre-historical times.
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posted
These things are so simply to deduce. He! He!
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posted
why do you quote articles and fail to name them?
Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region
Oleg Balanovsky,1,2
These analyses indicated that linguistic diversity is at least as important as geography in shaping the Y-chromosomal landscape, and suggested that the pronounced genetic structure of the Caucasus might have evolved in parallel with the diversification of the North Caucasus languages.
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As with the term "Saharan-Arabian" a term that indicates two continents, the authors of this study use the term "Near East" and also refer to two continents. They are defining the term "Near East" to include
So from these terms alone we cannot determine the point of origin because a haplogroup did not originate in two places. Do you get that?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I can't make this shyte up. LOL!
I hate being right..so often. J1 did NOT spread with Islam. Most likely an African origin. But definitely NOT a Caucasus origin and spread pre-historical times.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: These things are so simply to deduce. He! He!
this is not deductive reasoning, two different locations were included in "Near East" you simply picked one arbitrarily and decided that is origin.
There had been cultural contact between Nubians and Arabs long before the rise of Islam. So the fact that additional J1 came through the spread of Islam does not mean J1 originated in Sudan.
In the past you had said you though frequency was the primary factor
The highest frequency is in the Caucus, so now you choose to ignore
Origin is suggested by a combination of frequency and diversity
The highest diversity of J1 is in the Zagros/Taurus mountain region (Iran/Iraq) Ciaroni 2010, I already posted it. Also high diversity in Turkey
The highest frequency of J1 in a larger region is in Arabia. Sudan is only high frequency in Khartoum Sudan has la low diversity of J1 And consider there are non-Arab Sudanese
So you ignore all this because you there is some underlying political reason you want J1 to have originated in Sudan/Algeria.
Also notable the relative higher frequencies of J1 in Sudan and where the Sudan Arab population is in in the Northern half. This suggest the enty into Sudan was from North to South not from Yemen across the red sea. That is evident looking at the map
Khartoum served as outpost for the Egyptian Army, but the settlement grew quickly as a regional center of trade. It also became a focal point for the trading in slaves. It became the administrative center for Sudan, and later the official capital. ^^^ The Tuareg region. As expected,they have little no to J1 probably because they are inland -away from the larger coastal trading routes and settlements of the Arabs- including pre-Islamic Arabs
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Haplogroup J-P209 is believed to have arisen roughly 31,700 years ago in Southwest Asia (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I-M170, as both Haplogroup I-M170 and Haplogroup J-P209 are Haplogroup IJ subclades. Haplogroup IJ and haplogroup K derive from Haplogroup IJK, and only at this level of classification does haplogroup IJK join with Haplogroup G and Haplogroup H as immediate descendants of Haplogroup F. J-P209 is defined by the M304 genetic marker, or the equivalent 12f2.1 marker. The main current subgroups J-M267 and J-M172, which now comprise between them almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago. Nonetheless, Y-chromosomes F-M89* and IJ-M429* were reported to have been observed in the Iranian plateau (Grugni et al. 2012). On the other hand, it would seem to be that different episodes of populace movement had impacted southeast Europe, as well as the role of the Balkans as a long-standing corridor to Europe from the Near East is shown by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation. This proof of common ancestry suggests that ancestral Hgs IJ-M429* probably would have entered Europe through the Balkan track sometime before the LGM. They then subsequently split into Hg J and Hg I in Middle East and Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern. Such a geographic hall is prone to have encountered extra consequent gene streams, including the horticultural settlers. Moreover, the unification of haplogroups IJK creates evolutionary distance from F–H delegates, as well as supporting the inference that both IJ-M429 and KT-M9 arose closer to the Middle East than central or eastern Asia.
___________________________________________
Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1023-34. Epub 2004 Apr 6.
Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area. Semino O,
Abstract The phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroups E (Hg E) and J (Hg J) was investigated in >2400 subjects from 29 populations, mainly from Europe and the Mediterranean area but also from Africa and Asia. The observed 501 Hg E and 445 Hg J samples were subtyped using 36 binary markers and eight microsatellite loci. Spatial patterns reveal that (1). the two sister clades, J-M267 and J-M172, are distributed differentially within the Near East, North Africa, and Europe; (2). J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people; (3). E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and its presence in Iberia and Sicily is due to recent gene flow from North Africa; (4). J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers; and (5). E-M78 (for which microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin) and, to a lesser extent, J-M12(M102) lineages would trace the subsequent diffusion of people from the southern Balkans to the west. A 7%-22% contribution of Y chromosomes from Greece to southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis.
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*******--- Wolfgang Haak, Colin Renfrew, R. Spencer Wells, and The Genographic Consortium. etc
Associate editor: Sarah Tishkoff
Abstract We analyzed 40 single nucleotide polymorphism and 19 short tandem repeat Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential SOURCE populations.
The data suggested a direct origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation, and genetic drift in situ. *****
A brotha, "quote J1 in sudan and the nile valley in sudan came in the middle ages. "
Siiighhh! Why don't we just get past the emotional driven outburst. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Several Genetic evidence and mathematical models shows J1 is Afican/Arabian origin during Neolithic/Paleolthic times yet we keep up these emotional belief that it was spread through Islam.
Throw hands in the air. I give up!
BTW; We do know the significance of the paragroup J1e* found in Ethiopia? Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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------- We did not include Turkic-speaking populations as their recent immigration from Eastern Europe and Central Asia could possibly blur the deeper genetic pattern
These new migrants were Iranian speakers (Scythians, Sarmatians, and their descendants, the Alans) who arrived around 3,000–1,500 YBP, followed by Turkic speakers about 500–1,000 YBP. The new migrants forced the [b]INDIGENOUS CAUCASIAN population to relocate from the foothills into the high mountains.
-----
This proves again that we need to give Mike his props. We have to respect some of his hard work. I remember some of you gaffawed when he said the original peoples in that area was black and that modern Turks are new to the area.
As I said the DNATribes piece cited by Lioness has the Scythians and Thracians having the highest percentage of SSA str. Go figure. What does that tell us??
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
When I first pickup these reearch papers I try to get an idea on what I am about to read. So I follow the 4 W’s
Who – wrote the paper, author. Who is the big dog, ie behind the scene player pulling the strings
When – when was it written. Is it outdated,. Are there more recent work on th subject.
What – what is the hypothesis the researcher is trying to work through.
Where – where were the samples taken.? Did they sample the appropriate populations? Is the sampling skewed or did it omit relevant geopgraphic population.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Quote from the study:
------- We did not include Turkic-speaking populations as their recent immigration from Eastern Europe and Central Asia could possibly blur the deeper genetic pattern
These new migrants were Iranian speakers (Scythians, Sarmatians, and their descendants, the Alans) who arrived around 3,000–1,500 YBP, followed by Turkic speakers about 500–1,000 YBP. The new migrants forced the [b]INDIGENOUS CAUCASIAN population to relocate from the foothills into the high mountains.
-----
This proves again that we need to give Mike his props. We have to respect some of his hard work. I remember some of you gaffawed when he said the original peoples in that area was black and that modern Turks are new to the area.
As I said the DNATribes piece cited by Lioness has the Scythians and Thracians having the highest percentage of SSA str. Go figure. What does that tell us??
These are the people who have the highest frequencies of J1 in the world:
posted
Did you read the paper? I am asking a question. Read the section. They are saying the indigenous Caucasians carried lineage from the Sudan , Algeria, etc. lol! The Scythians, Turks etc migrated recently to the area. Correct me if I am wrong. He! He! Anyone, am I read this wrong?.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
According to Tishkoff, Spencer Wells, Haak and other heavy hitters, the indigenous people of the Caucasaus are Sudanese, Algerians etc, descendants. J1 regardless of the frequency in Caucasaus is new to the area. Correct me here also . He! He! You are the one who posted the paper !!!!!
You see, that's your problem, you don't read stuff, maybe you having a problem understanding. You know , a learning disability??!!!
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] According to Tishkoff, Spencer Wells, Haak and other heavy hitters, the indigenous people of the Caucasaus are Sudanese, Algerians etc, descendants.
folks save this quote, it's a gem
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posted
You still haven't answered my question . I am not the one saying it . This is from the experts, am I reading it wrong. You are the Language major. Correct me or more specifically Tishkoff, Wells etc. isn't this what they are saying? Lol!
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posted
I case you missed it Tishkoff , Wells etc have rejected the term Caucasian in a racial sense, they are using it correctly in a geographic sense. So you are correct ...Sudanese people who settled in the area are the indigenous Caucasian.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Hopefully next time you would read first then post later
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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J-M267 (J1) was found in all North Africans except the Tuareg and Amizmiz Valley Moroccan and Tunisia (Jerbian and Bou Omrane Berbers) (other Tunisan berbers up to 32%)
Oddly Tuareg speak a language associated with Semitic
highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia, although they and the far off Khartom Sudanese, also who have high frequencies have low diversity of J1
quote: The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe. The J branch subsequently split again and contributed to the current North African population.
posted
This is from ISOGG. However, I would like to see more data.
The geographic spread of J1 M267 is indicative of a late paleolithic expansion FROM Africa. I speculated on that a long time ago. J2 on other hand is very localized indicative of a recent movement INTO Africa.
Odd that the Taureg do not carry J1 but carry high frequency of mtDNA hg-H. I would expect them to also carry J1-m267.
Nice find..
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [
quote: The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe. The J branch subsequently split again and contributed to the current North African population.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
J-M267 (J1) was found in all North Africans except the Tuareg and Amizmiz Valley Moroccan and Tunisia (Jerbian and Bou Omrane Berbers) (other Tunisan berbers up to 32%)
Oddly Tuareg speak a language associated with Semitic
highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia, although they and the far off Khartom Sudanese, also who have high frequencies have low diversity of J1
quote: The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe.The J branch subsequently split again and contributed to the current North African population.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
J-M267 (J1) was found in all North Africans except the Tuareg and Amizmiz Valley Moroccan and Tunisia (Jerbian and Bou Omrane Berbers) (other Tunisan berbers up to 32%)
Oddly Tuareg speak a language associated with Semitic
highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia, although they and the far off Khartom Sudanese, also who have high frequencies have low diversity of J1
quote: The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe.The J branch subsequently split again and contributed to the current North African population.
Y-DNA haplogroup J evolved in the ancient Near East and was carried into North Africa, Europe, Central Asia, Pakistan and India.
The ancestor of Haplgroup IJ is F-L15 ( Hap IJK) part of Haplogroup F
__________________________________
quote: Y-DNA haplogroup F is the parent of all Y-DNA haplogroups G through T and contains more than 90 percent of the world's population. Haplogroup F was in the original migration out of Africa, or else it was founded soon afterward, because F and its sub-haplogroups are primarily found outside, with very few inside, sub-Saharan Africa. The founder of F could have lived between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago, depending on the time of the out-of-Africa migration.
J1 lineages may have a more southern origin [,...]
"The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe. "
It's almost funny, because my citation says "Last revision date for this specific page: 3 April 2015"
Now if IJ were already in Northeast Africa. It's only logic that the Southern part of the Levant convoluted into J1.
M168 => M89 => J-M267.
The next step to the crumbs will be, who were they!?
quote:To resume, our results clearly reject the scenario put forward so far of a strict correlation between the Arab expansion in historical times and the overall pattern of distribution of J1-related chromosomes. Similarly, the causal association between STR-defined haplotypes and ethnic groups appear without any robust support, making its use inadequate for forensic or genealogical purposes. Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record – the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy.
--Sergio Tofanelli
J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements
posted
The tuareg and most berbers in general,were discendants of ancient lidyans,from LIDYA in asia minor.They are the biblical LUD/LUDDIM.They inhabited south mediterenean belt,originally semites they mixedwith indo-europeans,phoenicians and elamites.They were allied to egypt.migrated to north africa on phoenician ships mixed with mandinka people in north africa libya and carthage.
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quote:Originally posted by LEDAMA: The tuareg and most berbers in general,were discendants of ancient lidyans,from LIDYA in asia minor.They are the biblical LUD/LUDDIM.They inhabited south mediterenean belt,originally semites they mixedwith indo-europeans,phoenicians and elamites.They were allied to egypt.migrated to north africa on phoenician ships mixed with mandinka people in north africa libya and carthage.
The Tuareg are indigenous to Africa. Sorry to disappoint you. The Tuaregs are one of the pastoral populations in what is now the Sahara-Sahel.
Tenerean:
The Kiffian & Tenerean Occupation Of Gobero, Niger: Perhaps The Largest Collection Of Early-Mid Holocene People In Africa
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
SUPERB MUSEUM GRADE TENEREAN AFRICAN NEOLITHIC LARGE STONE KNIFE BLADE WITH PIERCING TIP FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE GREEN SAHARA
quote: Prior to as recent as 3000 B.C., the South Central Sahara region in Africa was a humid lake savannah. It was home to a thriving culture of ancient humans known as the Tenerians and before them, the Kiffians. The occupation of this area by these two peoples occurred continuously from around 7700 B.C. to the drying of the Sahara in 2500 B.C..
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
quote:These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
The above encapsulated exactly with the Genetic mutation occurrence of E-V68, E-M81
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posted
Ssshhh!! Can you guys stop quoting religious yaba jaba as proof.
quote:Originally posted by LEDAMA: The tuareg and most berbers in general,were discendants of ancient lidyans,from LIDYA in asia minor.They are the biblical LUD/LUDDIM.They inhabited south mediterenean belt,originally semites they mixedwith indo-europeans,phoenicians and elamites.They were allied to egypt.migrated to north africa on phoenician ships mixed with mandinka people in north africa libya and carthage.
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