posted
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdfPosts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Great analysis.
Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
Did you read what Clyde said? The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
^^^1,300 years ago
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Great analysis.
Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
Did you read what Clyde said? The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
^^^1,300 years ago
What I mean is the spread via the Iberia, into Europe. Rather the date and stamp time in difference is another issue. But considering all evidence, this most likely seems to be the case.
Africans inhabited that region long before any modern Spaniard lived there, anyway. So, as a matter of fact the Moors re-colonized the region.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Great analysis.
Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
Did you read what Clyde said? The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
^^^1,300 years ago
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
What I mean is the spread via the Iberia, into Europe. Rather the date and stamp time in difference is another issue. But considering all evidence, this most likely seems to be the case.
The La Braña 1 mtDNA haplotype was an U5b2c1
The thread topic is haplogroup H
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Africans inhabited that region long before any modern Spaniard lived there, anyway. So, as a matter of fact the Moors re-colonized the region.
The thread topic is haplogroup H
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Again, I am talking about early the colonization from Africa to the Iberia. Prior to modern day europeans living there. In that sense Clyde is correct. Only he dates it more recently. And I didn't say that Brana' s mitochondria is Hg H.
quote: This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.
[...]
Indicate that La Bran ̃ a specimens (Figure 1) belong to the U5b haplotype (16192T-16270T).
--Carles Lalueza-Fox et al
Current Biology, 28 June 2012 doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2012.06.005
Genomic Affinities of Two 7,000-Year-Old Iberian Hunter-Gatherers
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
When look at how some of these papers were written, it looks a lot like the game "pass it on story".
Anyway, here is another paper on this matter.
quote: All the haplogroup H mtDNAs found in 5,743 subjects from 43 populations were then screened for diagnostic markers of subhaplogroups H1 and H3. This survey showed that both subhaplogroups display frequency peaks, centered in Iberia and surrounding areas, with distributions declining toward the northeast and southeast—a pattern extremely similar to that previously reported for mtDNA haplogroup V.
Furthermore, the coalescence ages of H1 and H3 (~11,000 years) are close to that previously reported for V. These findings have major implications for the origin of Europeans, since they attest that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area was indeed the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated much of Central and Northern Europe from ~15,000 years ago.
[...]
As a result, it is likely that the dissection of H into subhaplogroups of younger age might reveal previously unidentified spatial frequency patterns, which in turn could be correlated to prehistoric and historical migratory events. However, until now, haplogroup H has been only partially resolved genealogically (Herrnstadt et al. 2002) allowing for the identification of 11 subclades (H1–H11) (Quintáns et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004), the phylogeography of which has been evaluated only in rare instances (Tambets et al. 2004). Therefore, the objective of this study is to provide new information concerning the molecular dissection of haplogroup H and to determine whether its subhaplogroups do indeed show such spatial patterns.
To achieve this objective, the first step consisted in the complete sequencing of 62 mtDNAs performed as described by Torroni et al. (2001b). Fifty-four of the mtDNAs that were chosen for complete sequencing harbored −7025 AluI and −14766 MseI, two well-known diagnostic RFLP markers of haplogroup H. In addition, for the choice of these mtDNAs, we also took into account the nature and extent of the sequence variation observed in a preliminary sequence analysis restricted to the control region; the objective being to include the widest possible range of haplogroup H internal variation. The remaining eight mtDNAs were chosen because the RFLP analysis and control-region sequencing had suggested that they belonged to haplogroups that were closely related to H. Thus, their complete sequences would allow the definition of the branching order of the entire superhaplogroup HV.
Figure 1 Most-parsimonious tree of complete (pre-HV)1, HV*, HV1, pre-V, and H mtDNA sequences. The tree, rooted in haplogroup R, includes 62 mtDNAs (1–62) sequenced in this study and illustrates subhaplogroup affiliations. Phylogeny construction was performed ...
Figure 2 Geographical locations of populations surveyed for haplogroup H (top) and its spatial frequency distribution (bottom). Frequency values for populations 1–43 are from table 1, whereas those for populations 44–63 are from the literature, ...
[...]
Finally, to determine whether the haplotype shared by the nine mtDNAs could, by itself, play a role in the expression of the A1555G mutation, we analyzed in detail its shared mutations: A93G, A95C, and T8258C. The first two (93 and 95C) are located in the control region, and their association is sporadically seen in other Eurasian haplogroups but very frequently in some African haplogroups—for example, in L0a, L1c, and L2c (Alves-Silva et al. 2000; Ingman et al. 2000; Mishmar et al. 2003)
--Alessandro Achilli, Chiara Rengo, [...], and Antonio Torroni
The Molecular Dissection of mtDNA Haplogroup H Confirms That the Franco-Cantabrian Glacial Refuge Was a Major Source for the European Gene Pool
posted
This looks interesting..I am surprised Spencer Wells pen his name to this also References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616 Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Great analysis.
Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
Did you read what Clyde said? The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>
The importance of L haplogroup in ancient Iberia is the reality that Africans were in Western Eurasian much earlier than researchers admit. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the dissertations of young geneticist offer gems in understanding African prehistory. Granted the dissertations are safe and don't really threaten the status quo but, just like the supplemental data associated with many research articles, they often contain information seasoned researchers would never publish since it might upset the strict division of African and Eurasian haplogroups.
Also don't forget that hg H,is derived from macro-haplogroup N which is L3(N).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Great analysis.
Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
Did you read what Clyde said? The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>The La Braña 1 mtDNA haplotype was an U5b2c1
My objective is to provide an accurate perspective on African prehistory. I am a falsificanist. Science is based on hypotheses building. A good hypothesis will result in new hypothesis based on an original hypothesis.
The existence of Black/African haplogroups is simply confirmation of the Afrocentric hypotheses.
The Afrocentric study of ancient history (ASAH) is based on four hypotheses confirmed by 200 years of research.
The paradigms for ASAH predicted four hypotheses that were unknown at the time the "Ancient Model" of history was developed, to guide the development of scientific knowledge for the africalogical study of early history. These propositions based on the "Ancient Model" are:
(1) If Blacks founded civilization in Asia and Africa , they may have influenced civilization in the Americas.
(2) If Blacks founded civilization in West Asia, Africa and Europe, archaeological data will support their earlier presence in these regions of the world.
(3) If Blacks founded the first civilizations, they also invented writing and other elements of social and scientific technology.
(4) If Blacks founded civilization they probably founded civilization throughout Asia and Europe.
These hypotheses make Afrocentric researchers falsificationists. The falsificationists seeks to confirm or disconfirm the four ASAH hypotheses.
Euronuts always claim that Afrocentrism lacks a scientific base but they never provide counter evidence falsifying the four ASAH.
The origin of Eurasian haplogroups in Africa, and the migration of Africans carrying these genes into Europe relate to ASAH hypothesis 4: If Blacks founded civilization they probably founded civilization throughout Asia and Europe.
These four hypotheses generated additional hypotheses which have been confirmed:
Hypothesis 1: If Egypt was founded by Africans linguistic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H2.If Egypt was founded by Africans genetic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H2a.If Egypt was founded by Africans genetic evidence will connect the ancient Egyptians to west Africans because people from the Horn began to migrate into Egypt and the Sudan during the Roman period, this relationship (Confirmed).
H2b.If Egypt was founded by Africans genetic evidence will connect the ancient Egyptians to central-southern Africans because people from the Horn began to migrate into Egypt and the Sudan during the Roman period, this relationship (Confirmed).
H2c.If Egypt was founded by Africans genetic evidence will connect the ancient Egyptians to east Africans because people from the Horn began to migrate into Egypt and the Sudan during the Roman period, this relationship (Confirmed).
H3.If Egypt was founded by Africans who migrated into West Africa toponymic and linguistic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H4.If Africans founded civilizations in Eurasia linguistic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H5.If Africans founded civilizations in Eurasia genetic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H6.If Africans founded civilizations in the Americas linguistic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H7.If Africans founded civilizations in the Americas genetic evidence will support this relationship (Confirmed).
H8. Genetic evidence will indicate that White skinned Africans entered North Africa from Eurasia (Confirmed).
H8a.Genetic evidence will indicate that German speaking White skinned Africans entered North Africa from Eurasia (Confirmed).
H8b.Linguistic evidence will indicate that Germanic speaking White skinned Africans entered North Africa from Eurasia (Confirmed).
H9.Genetic evidence will indicate that original Western Europeans were Africans (Confirmed).
H9a.Genetic evidence will indicate that contemporary Europeans are not related to ancient original Western Europeans(Confirmed).
H9b.Linguistic evidence will indicate that contemporary Europeans are not related to ancient original Western Europeans(Confirmed).
As you can see my population genetics research is related to hypothesis 9.
lioness and Euronuts may want to attack Afrocentric knowledge but good hypotheses are self-generating and must be either confirmed or falsified.
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
In other words looking at the above frequencies of Haplgroup H in Europe today, just on the basis of this one haplogroup, so called modern "white" H carrier Europeans, are nearing half recent African. This fits in with what xyyman has been saying. I'll have to ponder this
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I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African Look
mtDNA African H 44.8%
African U5 5.8%
Y DNA African R1b about 40%
This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans
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I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African Look
mtDNA African H 44.8%
African U5 5.8%
Y DNA African R1b about 40%
This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans
No really. These figures may just reflect the Moorish influence in Spain.
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: Below is a Medieval Moorish wall tapestry followed by two web pages which are details taken from it.
There seems to be a certain lack of transparency found in academia where it does not convey the truth concerning the transformation that changed the black Europe of the first Celts, Guals, and Moors into the Italo-Franco-Germanic-Slavic Europe of today. A case in point was when Runoko Rashidi called me before he arrived in Budapest last summer while I was still there asking if I could share my knowledge of the city with him. I did and was happy to when we met there. After finishing with the museums of Budapest, he invited me to accompany him to Bratislava in Slovakia and of course I was delighted to go. It was at a museum there that I came across the magazine with a cover depicting the diminuitive negrito population of Slovenia as the Medieval Christian before the era of Germans and Slavs: pre-15th century.
But, while Bratislava was once wholly (by phenotype) African before the Italo-Franco-German-Slav Migration Periods, we saw just one single black person while we were there. And today’s church hierarchy and church congregations are all white.
It is the same story with Spain. Tiffany Ruby Patterson, in The Appearance and Disappearance of Moors in Spain: What Color Were They? writes of the lack of transparency in showing the truth about the transformation of Europe from Moorish African to European – some would say from black to white. She writes:
What was left at the end of the fifteenth century was the residue of a Moorish presence in the material culture, the bitter taste of racist rage, and the beginning of a carefully crafted effort to erase the memory of Moorish Spain. That effort began with a search for a “purity of blood” through a whitening of “Moors” and “Zephardic” Jews at the moment of another conquest, that of the Americas, and beginnings of the Atlantic slave trade.
Black images, history, and religion were erased in Europe and transformed into white; and today’s world is virtually amnesiac about the process and feels that the opposite of what really happened is truth – i.e. they feel whites were always in Europe as they have bought into the comfortable propaganda – e.g. A white Mary and Jesus when the original virgin for many thousands of years previous was, as you all know, African:
We have seen the metamorphosis of things once African that have become white. Did this also happen with the Celts and Moors providing the Medieval village and city templates for later white Europe as did Isis and Horus provide the template for the Virgin Mary and Jesus? Below is a Medieval Celt village - the oldest English village plan in existence showing its (by phenotype) African inhabitants as does the Medieval German estate show Moorish inhabitants and foreshadow post 15th century Europe.
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African Look
mtDNA African H 44.8%
African U5 5.8%
Y DNA African R1b about 40%
This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
No really. These figures may just reflect the Moorish influence in Spain.
How could DNA frequencies of modern Germans reflect Moorish influence in Spain? The Moors occupied Spain but this would show the Moorish influence in Germany you even posted a German tapestry Spain would only be the place they were in before they got to France and Germany
thus modern day Germans are primarily African look at their DNA
mtDNA African H 44.8%
African U5 8.8%
Y DNA African R1b about 40%
They also have E1b1b, do we even need to go into more of their African DNA ??
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posted
^The above is the same nonsense as usually. And this is why I posted on Brana in the first place.
When it's hypothesized and theorized to have come from Asia or Arabia you don't bring those sarcastic arguments.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. [...] If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). [...] The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, ...
. You write as if frequency is the prime and only way to determine origin when of course it is not. It is the weakest.
Greatest diversity and presence of paragroup are the top two means to get at haplogroup origins although frequency is an aid.
Were we to go by your idea frequency alone would rule out mtDNA Hg's M N and R from African origin. You can't have it both ways. If your frequency criteria makes H African it makes M N and R non-African.
Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the Near East has the highest H* frequency. She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Also from an anthropoligcal perspective "Near East" includes Anatolia not just the Levant and I had read that some researchers believe H originated there
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
One must see what each author means by their use of Near East. In this instance I don't think NE includes Anatolia.
I think that here NE applies to Afroasia, i.e., the Levant and Iraq. Will have to check Ennafaa Additional file 2 to be sure. Looks to be Jordan, Dead Sea, Palestine, Syria, and Iran judging by AF1's caption.
Europeans can't seem to decide if Anatolia is Europe or Asia and at which time periods to apply the one or the other.
But then of course we expect you to do anything to lessen accord with the non-Europe world and bolster Eurocentric hegemony over everything PussyPuss.
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But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. [...] If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). [...] The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, ...
. You write as if frequency is the prime and only way to determine origin when of course it is not. It is the weakest.
Greatest diversity and presence of paragroup are the top two means to get at haplogroup origins although frequency is an aid.
Were we to go by your idea frequency alone would rule out mtDNA Hg's M N and R from African origin. You can't have it both ways. If your frequency criteria makes H African it makes M N and R non-African.
I never use frequency of a haplogroup as the sole measure for my views on the origin of a haplogroup, I also use other archaeogenetic markers including craniometrics, archaeology and linguistics.
The presence of a paragroup is not always the top mean to determine a haplogroup origin , unless it benefits Europeans. A good example was R1-M173, the pristine form is found in Africa, but Europeans claim R1 originated in Eurasia, when V88 is the oldest R1 clade and R-M269 exist throughout Africa across African linguistic and ethnic groups.
Greatest diversity is not always a good measure of origin because the location of a particular ethnic group may not be representative of the history of that group for example, researchers have situated the original homeland of the Bantu in West Africa, due to the variety of Bantu languages in the area when in reality the Bantu expanded from the Nile Valley into West and Southern Africa. Moreover, the greatest diversity of genomes is in Cameroon but it is never recognized as an origin area for any haplogroup.
Other researchers claim the M haplogroup originated in India because, of the variety of M haplogroups in South Asia. But the Dravidian speakers who demonstrate this variety belonged to the C-Group in Africa and only entered India 4.5kya. This along with M1 spread throughout Africa, supports an African origin for hg M.
Haplogroup N, according to ancient mtDNA (amtDNA) was first found in Eurasia among Aurignacian people. The Aurignacians were Khoisan who crossed the Straits of Morocco to enter Western Europe. Since they took N into Iberia this haplogroup had to have originated in Africa.
We can believe that haplogroup R probably originated in Africa because V88 is older than R-M269. In addition, R-M269 is spread throughout Africa and carried among many Africans that could not have admixed with "Europeans", including Khoisan.In addition, whereas there is no history of an Eurasian invasion of Africa, we do know that the Kushites who spoke Niger-Congo languages and carried haplogroup R did invade Eurasia.
In summary greatest diversity and paragroup means are not a good indicator for a haplogroup's origin. There is also great diversity of hg M in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Nice lead Dr. Winters. As you can see M is found throughout Africa.
This is the first paper I have seen showing such high frequency and diversity in West Africa.
posted
I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.
Toronni and Achilli BS their way into popularity with their hypothesis of hg-H having an Iberian origin. The Refugia Theory. Of course this is fast falling out of favor and popularity. Ennaffa proposed an Arabia/Near East for H1 but and African origin for H3….based upon diveristy. Achilli et al did their work(based upon frequency). The dataset for Africans were not as complete as it is now. The current dataset rules OUT Europe as the origin og hg-H.
I always said that frequency is NOT the end all of origin. H has an African origin. See my therad on ESR. Haplotype diversity and up-stream clades are much better indicators. As it stands right now, all evidence included, Africa has the edge over Arabia for hg-H origin. Why?
The recent work by Kefi(2014) will even further help resolve that question. From her abstract both H1 and H3 seem to have an AFRICAN origin.
Time will tell. The lies cannot be upheld much longer. Everyone has a "DNA machine"
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Since pre-history SSA “owned” the Nile while African Amazigh dominated Sahara regions and points West. And “Arabia/Yemen is an extension of Africa”. Don’t believe me? DNATribes confirmed that also. The Geographic dominance. --------------- Quote: The two leading principal components displayed in Figure 2 capture 47.9% and 26.9% of the variance showing a well-defined separation between Mediterranean African populations and sub- Saharan populations (Fig 2a). There is a clear cluster of North African populations comprised of Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians. The Nile River marks another boundary of mtDNA differentiation within Africa, linking Egypt, Ethiopia and Kenya but also extending through to Yemen. Yemenis and Saudis both associate strongly with Egyptians, whereas the Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian populations clustered together. Thus, the Arabian Peninsula population clusters were relatively differentiated from the more northern Levantine populations. Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups showing significant contributions to the principal components include H, L3, L2, L0, V, L1, M, J, U, T, K, HV, and R0. The principal vectors for HV, T, K, J, and U point almost directly at the Levantine cluster (Fig 2a). H marks Western Europe and is a significant contributor to Libyan Sahara and Mali mtDNA diversity. L2 and L3 frequencies distinguish the populations of Kenya, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Tunisia, and Libyan Sahara, with a decrease in frequencies of L haplotypes from Kenya through Saudi Arabia.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.
Toronni and Achilli BS their way into popularity with their hypothesis of hg-H having an Iberian origin. The Refugia Theory. Of course this is fast falling out of favor and popularity. Ennaffa proposed an Arabia/Near East for H1 but and African origin for H3….based upon diveristy. With Achilli et al did their work(based upon frequency). The dataset for Africans were not as complete as it is now. The current dataset rules OUT Europe as the origin og hg-H.
I always said that frequency is NOT the end all of origin. H has an African origin. See my therad on ESR. Haplotype diversity and up-stream clades are much better indicators. As it stands right now, all evidence included, Africa has the edge over Arabia for hg-H origin. Why?
The recent work by Kefi(2014) will even further help resolve that question. From her abstract both H1 and H3 seem to have an AFRICAN origin.
Time will tell. The lies cannot be upheld much longer. Everyone has a "DNA machine"
The "lie" can last as long as Europeans want it to last.They will just change the name of hg H in Africa to confuse the picture, like what they did in changing R1 in Africa, into V88. Overtime people will not recognize any relationship between R1 clades still called R1 when they exist in Eurasia, and V88.
Europeans are doing everything they can to destroy the OoA theory. They seek to make it appear that Europeans are a unique group.
The key to understanding the history of mtDNA and Y-chromosomes is knowledge of Khoisan genetics. Presently, Eurpeans are trying to maintain the Hamitic myth by claiming that L3(M,N) expanded across Eurasia from East Africa. This may be the jumping off point for these groups, but it would appear that the population(s) carrying these haplogroups came from Southern Africa. For example, the Arabia and Indian tool kits associated with the OoA dating to 60-50kya belong to the Howiesons Poort technologies (see supporting information for Mellars, initial Genetic and archaeological perspectives on the modern human colonization of southern Asia,PNAS).
This supports the view that Khoisan, carried L3(M,N) over 60kya. A view supported by the Grimaldi/Cro-Magnon people of the Aurignacian culture who took haplogroup N into Eurasia.
.
quote: The N lineage is believed to have entered Eurasia via the continental route out of Africa [1]. This hypothesis has been disputed by some researchers [2] because hg N is found in India [3] and Australia [4-5]. This has led to some researchers assuming that there was a single migration of hgs M and N out of Africa [4-8]. Haplogroup N originated in Africa.
There was a serial expansion of haplogroup N across Africa into Eurasia [28]. This haplogroup probably originated in East Africa near the great Lakes region around 93.4kya [28]. From Tanzania, Khoisan speaking people probably spread the haplogroup into Ethiopia 80kya and into West Africa 80kya [28]. Sometime before 40kya carriers of haplogroup N from Cameroon and possibly the Senegambia migrated across the Straits of Gibraltar into Iberia [28]. The Khoisan speakers probably spread the Aurignacian culture throughout Europe [14].
As a result, of the early demic diffusion of haplogroup N across Africa before the first anatomically modern humans (AMH) exited Africa 60kya [28], N haplogroups are found throughout Africa. Haplogroups N,N*, N1 and N1a are found within Sub-Saharan groups including Senegambians [9], Tanzanians [10] and modern Ethiopians [11]. Carriers of haplogroup N in Africa speak various languages including Khoisan, Cushitic, Niger-Congo, Afrasian and Nilo-Saharan. In East Africa, we find that 85.5% of the Sub-Saharan African population carry N1 clades, while 14.5% carry one the N subhaplogroup in West Africa. In Egypt 8.8 percent of the Gurma carry hg N1b [12]. The Great Lakes region of East Africa was the center for the spread of haplogroup N across Africa [28]. As a result, it is not surprising to find that African N1a mtDNA haplotypes (minus 16000) include 147G-172-223-248-355 in Tanzania and Ethiopia [1a]. These mtDNA haplotypes are also found in Saudi Arabia, Greece, Russia and Yemen [1a]. The South Indian mtDNA N1a haplotypes (minus 16000) include 147G-172-223-248-295-355 and 147G-172-209-203-248-355 [1a].
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.
xyyman, Germans are carry H at 44.8% mtDNA
When do you think they acquired this?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
Do you agree with this?
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. . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
This map doesn't support your conclusion at all since Iberia is not shown on the map having Haplogroup H. Even in the article this map comes from, apart from a citation in the references, the article does not mention Iberia or Spain.
You would have to have some other article that at least mentions Iberia to relate to your point
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I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
Do you agree with this?
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posted
Europe male line, R-M269 S116 etc entered Europe about 1000BC, even more recent than the females. Things are NOT as it seems.
R-M269 is NOT the counter-part to H1 and H3. It is that simple. We need to stop projecting our modern beliefs, prejudices and geopolitics on ancient populations. It is that simple. This is what these simple minded European scientist are trying to do.
That is why they getting surprised at every turn and with every discovery.
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Keep in mind, if the Moors were North West Africans then obviously "some" hg-H entered with the Moors, assuming the women were part of the invasion and occupation forces. But the frequency numbers in Europe does NOT support the Moor occupation as the 'main" source of hg-H. Sides, hg-H was IN Europe long before the Moor Invasion.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin based upon the geographic pattern.
xyyman, Germans are carry H at 44.8% mtDNA
When do you think they acquired this?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
Do you agree with this?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
When? H has entered Europe about 5KYa as most aDNA studies have showed. Prior to that European females were the older hg-U.
Europe male line, R-M269 S116 etc entered Europe about 1000BC,
5,000 years ago So there seems no way around it, modern Germans, just based on these two haplogroups are largely recent Africans
Compatively other populations have lived outside Africa much longer and have more distant genetic markers
Germans also have have high frequencies of Y DNA Haplgroup I What is the likely origin of Haplgroup I ?
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quote: Although the study's main focus was on Africa, ishkoff and her colleagues studied DNA markers from around the planet, identifying 14 "ancestral clusters" for all of humanity. Nine of those clusters are in Africa. "You're seeing more diversity in one continent than across the globe," Tishkoff said.
quote: For many of the individuals for which we have obtained DNA, we also collected phenotype data for traits likely to play a role in adaptation, some of which demonstrate a complex pattern of inheritance and are likely influenced by multiple loci and environmental factors. In addition to case/control analyses of variation at candidate genes, we are using whole-genome association studies to identify novel genes that are associated with these traits. Together with collaborators, we are also developing methods for mapping complex traits (including disease) in highly structured African populations.
The Evolution of Human Genetic and Phenotypic Variation in Africa
quote: Africa is the birthplace of modern humans, and is the source of the geographic expansion of ancestral populations into other regions of the world.
Indigenous Africans are characterized by high levels of genetic diversity within and between populations. The pattern of genetic variation in these populations has been shaped by demographic events occurring over the last 200,000 years.
The dramatic variation in climate, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent has also resulted in novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations in extant Africans.
This review summarizes some recent advances in our understanding of the demographic history and selective pressures that have influenced levels and patterns of diversity in African populations.
Africa not only has the highest levels of human genetic variation in the world but also contains a considerable amount of linguistic, environmental and cultural diversity. For example, more than 2,000 distinct ethno-linguistic groups, representing nearly a third of the world’s languages, currently exist in Africa
The timing and duration of some of these demographic events were often correlated with known major environmental changes and/or cultural developments in Africa [6].
A number of novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations have also evolved in Africans in response to dramatic variation in environment, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent.
In some cases, these adaptations have occurred in the last several thousand years, exemplifying the ongoing evolution of human populations.
Thus, present-day patterns of variation in African genomes are a product of both demographic and selective events.
--Sarah Tishkoff, Ph.D
The Evolution of Human Genetic and Phenotypic Variation in Africa
Tukuler
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posted
Clyde please, you just used frequency exclusively out of all genetic indicators of origin. Rhetoric is fine but you produce no cases where diversity, paragroup, and frequency combined do not indicate haplogroup origin. Diversity is probably number one and cannot be gainsaid when various measures of diversity all point to one region as in the case of haplogroup H originating in the "Near East" (technically far northeast Africa or the African Extension as I sometimes call it).
None of the non-genetic measures you propose can tell the origin of a haplogroup. What they can do is suggest origins of a people but never a genetic marker.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Clyde please, you just used frequency exclusively out of all genetic indicators of origin. Rhetoric is fine but you produce no cases where diversity, paragroup, and frequency combined do not indicate haplogroup origin. Diversity is probably number one and cannot be gainsaid when various measures of diversity all point to one region as in the case of haplogroup H originating in the "Near East" (technically far northeast Africa or the African Extension as I sometimes call it).
None of the non-genetic measures you propose can tell the origin of a haplogroup. What they can do is suggest origins of a people but never a genetic marker.
This is your opinion. Your comment does not compute. People carry genome, as a result you can not separate a population=people from the haplogroups they carry.
You don't know what you're talking about. You can't support any ancient population migration or origin without non-genetic markers. Without ancient mtDNA dated to a particular period any population and haplogroup origin is pure conjecture. That's why the dating of a haplogroup is based on guesstimation via statistical modeling. That's why different statistical models lead to varying origin dates for a haplogroup. Below is the Sores data. Check out how Sores makes sure that he does not make the origin of L3(M,N) older than the proposed OoA event.
How many articles have you published on population genetics. My methods are the same as anyone else doing archaeogenetics.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Start making sense. No people or population carries one and only one haplogroup nor is any basal haplogroup limited to one people or population.
C'mon man you're not a population geneticist nor are you a molecular biologist so don't grandstand your out of your field publication. What you write is the same as what I write, a layman's opinion, nothing more nothing less.
And that name in your chart is spelled Soares.
Emotionalism aside you've yet to overturn any of this
Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the Near East has the highest H* frequency. She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.
When and if you bring similar African H data published by degreed professional molecular biologists/population geneticists that counters the above then you will have a legitimate case.
Meanwhile, haplogroup H probably did not originate in continental Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Start making sense. No people or population carries one and only one haplogroup nor is any basal haplogroup limited to one people or population.
C'mon man you're not a population geneticist nor are you a molecular biologist so don't grandstand your out of your field publication. What you write is the same as what I write, a layman's opinion, nothing more nothing less.
And that name in your chart is spelled Soares.
Emotionalism aside you've yet to overturn any of this
Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the Near East has the highest H* frequency. She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.
When and if you bring similar African H data published by degreed professional molecular biologists/population geneticists that counters the above then you will have a legitimate case.
Meanwhile, haplogroup H probably did not originate in continental Africa.
I have already published data that proves you're wrong in an earlier post. The Tables you published above are dated. They were published in 2009. The Ennafaa data is 4 years old. They do not reflect the up-to-date data provided by Badro et al (2013).
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.
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Tukuler
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posted
Again you've based yourself solely on frequency and blithely ignored all other genetic factors.
Badro's Libyan Sahara figure is from Ottoni whose study came out the same year as Ennafaa who apparently was more thorough and did include that frequency which is for H1 not H. Ottoni's LS freq is valid but only considers Tuareg not all of the Libyan Sahara. Note that Ennafaa has a higher Sahara H1 freq than Ottoni reports.
Familiarity with several sources pays.
Haplogroup H probably originated in the Near East --not continental Africa.
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I have already published data that proves you're wrong in an earlier post. The Tables you published above are dated. They were published in 2009. The Ennafaa data is 4 years old. They do not reflect the up-to-date data provided by Badro et al (2013).
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
This map doesn't support your conclusion at all since Iberia is not shown on the map having Haplogroup H. Even in the article this map comes from, apart from a citation in the references, the article does not even mention Iberia or Spain.
You would have to have some other article that at least mentions Iberia to relate to your point
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Tukuler
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posted
Western Europe no doubt includes Iberia.
What the map doesn't do is support spread or direction of spread. What the map does is graph frequencies.
EDIT: whoops France represents Western Europe mtDNA, and is labelled “Western Europe” throughout the rest of this report.Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.
@ Sage/TP and others interested- I recently re-examined this paper.
Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective- U. Roostalu,T. Kivisild, R. Villems*- .
Several things I and maybe others missed the first time around.
1. MtDNA hg-H1 with high resolution is devided into H1a, H1b etc. The Levant population do NOT carry the European version of H1. Implying that the Levant/Near East was NOT the source of European H1. 2. H13 and other sub-clades of hg-H is much much older than H1 and H3. Furthermore H13 is absent in Western Europe but has highest frequency in the Arabian region.
Significance? Only with a comprehensive fine resolution of analysis of mtDNA hg-H will the origin be resolved. Kefi? Point is, assigning an origin for H1 to Near East to Europe may be premature. Curiously North Africa was NOT included in this paper. Although the paper suggest that Europe and the Near East/Arabia had DIFFERENT sources for mtDNA hg-H since their hg-H high resolution makeup is different. Time will tell.
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posted
IIRC Ennaffa had the age of these sub-clades much young eg H-11-H-21 at about 11kyo. Irregradless the fact is the distribution pattern concur with Roostalu et al. H-11-H21 predominates in the Arabian region while H1-H6 predominates in Western Europe compared to the Arabian region. On the other hand North Africa has an appreciable frequency of BOTH groups of sub-clades. Significance? North Africa was either the recipient of both European AND Arabian female gene flow or North Africa was the source population for both Europe and the Arabian region(sounds like Basal Eurasian SNP to me). Again, this is where Kefi’s paper will help clarify things.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.
@ Sage/TP and others interested- I recently re-examined this paper.
Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective- U. Roostalu,T. Kivisild, R. Villems*- .
Several things I and maybe others missed the first time around.
1. MtDNA hg-H1 with high resolution is devided into H1a, H1b etc. The Levant population do NOT carry the European version of H1. Implying that the Levant/Near East was NOT the source of European H1. 2. H13 and other sub-clades of hg-H is much much older than H1 and H3. Furthermore H13 is absent in Western Europe but has highest frequency in the Arabian region.
Significance? Only with a comprehensive fine resolution of analysis of mtDNA hg-H will the origin be resolved. Kefi? Point is, assigning an origin for H1 to Near East to Europe may be premature. Curiously North Africa was NOT included in this paper....
Fulani shared a unique haplotype within mtDNA hg-U found in Northern Europeans. Europeans are a sub-set of Africans
Indeed Germans are effectively African on the genetic level
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Indeed Germans are effectively African on the genetic level
at your rebuttal.
Anyway, how come there is a different genetic structure amongst Germans?
quote:The scientists recovered 1.34 percent and 0.5 percent of the human genomes from the bones of these two cave men. Analyses revealed that current populations of the Iberian Peninsula, which includes Spain, Portugal and Andorra, are not genetically linked with these ancient hunter-gatherers. Instead, these cavemen were closer genetically to the current populations of northern Europe.
"There are many works that claim the Basques [of the Iberian Peninsula] could be descendants from Mesolithics that became isolated in the Basque country," Lalueza-Fox said. "We found the modern Basques are genetically not related to these two individuals."
The scientists also recovered the complete mitochondrial DNA of one of these cavemen. This revealed that European populations during the Mesolithic were very uniform genetically.
"Despite their geographical distance, individuals from the regions corresponding to the current England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland and Spain shared the same mitochondrial lineage," Lalueza-Fox said. "These hunters-gatherers shared nomadic habits and had a common origin."
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Western Europe no doubt includes Iberia.
What the map doesn't do is support spread or direction of spread. What the map does is graph frequencies.
EDIT: whoops France represents Western Europe mtDNA, and is labelled “Western Europe” throughout the rest of this report.
The map's graph of frequencies can be used to make inferences about the spread of hg H.
The Badro et al (2013) map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg H into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.
Correct. They stick to this "story" because if hg H entered Eurasia via Iberia, SSA had to have been the carriers of this genome. It is sad that even though the research makes it clear the people of the ancient Levant were SSA, Eurocentrists continue to paint this population white/Caucasian.
posted
Indeed, Achilli and Torroni based their Refugia Theory(1999?) on the frequency of hg-H in Iberia compared to the rest of Europe. It is only recently some African popualtions were determined to have a higher frequency of of hg-H.
Frequency is essential a function of drift and /or founders effect. Essentially who has more babies.
UpStreamm Clades and haplotype diversity are better indicators.
Some still geneticist insist on using frequency despite the flaws there.
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Some still [laymen] insist on using frequency despite the flaws there.
.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.
.
You can repeat yourself forever for whatever its worth.
You haven't shown where or how Badro supercedes Ennafaa.
You're ignoring Badro's sources and their date.
Not only that you don't seem to realize your Badro table has nothing to do with diversity or paragroup.
Again just frequency.
Ennafaa shows diversity paragroup and frequency and lists stats for several H sub-clades unlike Badro's.
3 types of evidence vs one. 3:1
But of course you don't care about none of that.
For you its just H is African and if it don't fit you'll force it.
Talk about sticking to a story.
Yeah I know, any hg found in Africa originates in Africa, NOT!
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can repeat yourself forever for whatever its worth.
You haven't shown where or how Badro supercedes Ennafaa.
You're ignoring Badro's sources and their date.
Not only that you don't seem to realize your Badro table has nothing to do with diversity or paragroup.
Again just frequency.
Ennafaa shows diversity paragroup and frequency and lists stats for several H sub-clades unlike Badro's.
3 types of evidence vs one. 3:1
But of course you don't care about none of that.
For you its just H is African and if it don't fit you'll force it.
Talk about sticking to a story.
Yeah I know, any hg found in Africa originates in Africa, NOT!
You are correct any haplogroup found in Africa of so-called Western European or Levant origin ,probably originated in Africa. As long as the archaeology places Africans in Eurasia when a haplogroup originated we must assume it is of African origin. Europeans only appear in Western Eurasia 1200BC, so caucasians can not be the originators of any haplogroup.
I will repeat it. You have proven nothing. There are also varying clades of hg H in Africa.
The Badro map's graph of frequencies can be used to make inferences about the spread of hg H.
The Badro et al (2013) map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg H into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. Moreover, there is more tham one hg H clade in Africa. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You can't pick and choose one H sub-clade and have it stand in for its parent. You don't have the right to do that though you are entitled to your opinion which I have demostrated is unfounded on based on 3 criteria not your solo freq criteria.
Do you not get it? No matter how much an inaccuracy's repeated it remains inaccurate.
Then there's your repeated failure to realize the data in Badro's 2013 frequency only table comes from various sources older than 2013.
Nor does your Badro table address the several diversity measures Ennafaa's table addresses.
You limit yourself to frequency a poor solo indicator of origin.
I am expansive and besides frequency include * Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency all of which seem to scare you to death since you refuse to consider those variables that knock your pitch straight out the park for a grand slam home run.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can't pick and choose one H sub-clade and have it stand in for its parent. You don't have the right to do that though you are entitled to your opinion which I have demostrated is unfounded on based on 3 criteria not your solo freq criteria.
Do you not get it? No matter how much an inaccuracy's repeated it remains inaccurate.
Then there's your repeated failure to realize the data in Badro's 2013 frequency only table comes from various sources older than 2013.
Nor does your Badro table address the several diversity measures Ennafaa's table addresses.
You limit yourself to frequency a poor solo indicator of origin.
I am expansive and besides frequency include * Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency all of which seem to scare you to death since you refuse to consider those variables that knock your pitch straight out the park for a grand slam home run.
You don't know what you're talking about. You base your opinion on your own beliefs instead of actual data.
As I said earlier there were only SSA in western Eurasia and the Levant so Africans were continually migrating into the region depositing their haplogroups.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. Below are a few quotes from the paper by Holliday they show that the population at this time were Negroid in Southwest Asia.
"In this light, some of the more robust assignments (albeit not 95% of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids to the sub-Saharan African sample (e.g., Qafzeh 8 at 85%, Skhul 4 at 71%) are remarkable indeed" (p. 62).
"The Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have sometimes been refered to as "Proto-CroMagnons" (e.g., Howell 1957; Vandermeersch 1996) because of their presumed similarity to the famous Aurignacian-associated hominids from Western Europe....Specifically [Brace], he notes that "in both the details of its dental and craniological size and from Qafzeh is an unlikely proto-Cro-Magnon, but it makes a fine model for the ancestors of modern sub-Saharan Africans"(p.63).
"taken as a whole, the work of Tchernov seems to support the findings of the current research that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have their origins in Africa, while the Neanderthals are from cold to temperate biomes"(p.64).
"The current study demonstrates African-like affinities in the body shape of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This finding is consistent with craniofacial evidence (Brace 1996) and with zooarchaeological data indicating the presence of African fauna at Qafzeh (Rabinovich and Tchernov 1995; Tchernov 1988, 1992)" (p.64).\
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Where are your non-Sub-Saharan Africans in Eurasia, who you claim were the originators of hg H.
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at your rebuttal. 
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