“H Haplotypes classified” means the “quantity' not “different type" of haplotypes. Essentially the 510(IP) means the sum of the haplotypes. It does NOT mean there are 510 different haplotypes in Iberia!! Do the math.
That is why quoting frequency alone is very mis-leading and deceptive. Most haplotypes could be exactly the SAME within Iberia. You need to dive deeper.
That is why spreadsheet S1 is where the “rubber hits the road” as I pointed out. Now once you understand that take it one step further and look at the data closely. Match-up the “unique” haplotypes, H*, between populations. Clearly, H*, between Arabia and North Africa is different. In the levant it is virtually absent except for, yeah, Jordan. But the population sampled with is Jordan is …you guessed it….Bedoiuns.
That is why Ennaafa concluded North Africa is NOT a subset of Arabia. Their H* and most other haplotypes do NOT match. She said “ Lack exclusivity”. Meaning Arabians did not back-migrate into North Africa. Islamic or otherwise.
As for Iberia, you your self agree that they carry signal of expansion FROM Africa.
I did look at the other supplementals but I dismissed them because S3 and S2 were meaningless for the discussion.
This is not rocket science.
Kefi et al (2014) is no longer needed.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
* = highest value Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2
Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.
Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).
TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It
It is sad you support Eurocentric views, even when an author--Ennafaa- does not even support your undercover Eurocentrism. You take whatever YOU believe Europeans write to deny black history and run with it, even when your interpretation of data is wrong. Shame on you.
References:
Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA. 2004. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet 114:127–148.
Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. 2002. A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466–482.
Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJ, Tiwari PK, Bamezai RN. 2009. The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J Hum Genet 54:47–55.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
* %hHT haplotype diversity highest, Near East 97 Arabian Penninsula 96 Iberia and North Africa 93 narrow margin
* unique haplotype frequency (%HTu) highest, Iberian Penninsula
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
They are highest there because of the homogeneity of near Eastern populations that have been influenced by the original SSA, and succeeding non-African populations into the area including, the Turks, Arabs, Mongolians, Slavic speakers, Indo-European speakers. This homogeneity has led to more mutations within the less homogenous Near Eastern populations, than the African populations.
Because Haplogroup H originated in Northwest Africa and the Sahara, there would be
* fewer different haplotypes * few unique haplotypes * less haplotype diversity * lower unique haplotype frequency
xyyman teaches the reverse high diversity + high frequency + suggests origin
Influx to North Africa of " Turks, Arabs, Mongolians, Slavic speakers, Indo-European" would not mutate Haplogroup H, especially in such a short time span Besides, Turkey already carries H 30.8 Slavs around 40%
Also there were European slaves kidnapped by the barbary states, Clyde you are proving this yourself
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
because, the African populations would be more homogeneous. Except, for the Vandal invasion of Northwest Africa, Black Berber and Tuareg populations have remained stable.[/b]
The Vandals were Germanic The Germans have higher frequencies of Haplogroup H than any country in North Africa Haplogroup H in North Africa verifys Diop's remarks on the Vandal component of berbers H represents foreign occupation of Africa
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
A Near East origin of hg H lacks any collateral archaeogenetic evidence to support the genomic data. The major factor disputing a Near East origin of hg H, is the homogeneity of Near Eastern populations, other factors include your failure to:
1) explain why hg H is not in Egypt
H is in Egypt about 16% --check primary source references in articles
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
2)Why there is no archaeological or historical evidence of NE people migrating through Western Europe and depositing hg H in Northwest Africa, but there is abundance of evidence of population replacement in the Near East; and
There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago. From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion, Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8% Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians Italian Hap H = 40.2 + afrorementioned Turks of the barbary
There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago. From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion, Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8% Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians Italian Hap H = 40.2 + afrorementioned Turks of the barbary
There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics
The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.
I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.
posted
@Lioness- You are more clever and deceptive than I give you credit for.
I was just about to touch on Table1 that Sage posted. Looking closely at hHG +- se3 , TuB is at 85+-3. Significance?
That is Gene haplogroup diversity. This African group carry the highest diversity.
BTW- NA on the whole is lower because of the low values of Saharawis and Mau.
The two African groups exceed Both IP and AP. NE is the least.
To sum it up. Two North African groups carry the highest diveristy(hHG). And Unclassified H, H*, is highest North Africa.
Edit: Oh! The Saharawi's and Mau carry the highest frequency of pre-H/HV. (Pillars of Hercules) meaning they are an older population albeit Berbers. They, Saharawis also carry a high freqiency of YDNA R-V88 but their SNP data profile is 100% African, O% European!!! Meaning?!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe.
the Romans and Vandals and barbary pirates who captured tens of thousands of Europeans All of these people were H carriers bringing H into North Africa
Why cling to H as African? What good is it?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.
Nobody said the majority of Levantines were Phoenicians The Phoenicians were traders who came from the Lebanon region and colonized coastal North Africa Lebanon has H frequencies 33.8%
Diop, berbers there has to be genetic correspondance of these, in part, foreign occupiers.
Note, Arabs have lower frequencies of H The conquest of Iberia was comprised of Arab and berber forces First they took over Egypt They brought J1 and other haps to the Maghreb
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tsk! Tsk! There you go again. J1 has Paleolithic presence in the Africa/Maghreb, Stop spreading mis-information.
Henn, Ennafaa etc all agree that the "Arab" invasion was cultural and did NOT involve movement of people.
Why do you keep repeating that nonsense. Deceptive.
---
Edit(added)- Good thinking by Lioness on the Table3 break down. I looked at that already and dismissed it. Why? HT, HTu %HTu is again misleading. Why? Within a Haplogroup there may be several haplotypes. ie more mutations within a HG.
That is why I went back to the unclassified, H*(in Supp 1) and the hHG+-se3 in Table 1 Sage posted.
This combined with the Exclusivity of H* in Africa and NE/AP gives Africa the edge.
But nice try!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Point here is straight up frequency is misleading.
It also shows the ancient presence and connection between North Africa, Arabia and Iberia. As far back as maybe pre-LGM. The presence of pre-HV and R0 further south paints the picture.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Point here is straight up frequency is misleading.
why is that the point when th last thing discussed was the diversity chart? and the highest diversity of haplogroup H, and Clyde agrees with this, is in the Near East
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lighten up man. People like a little funnin'.
C'mon Clyde you're better than that. Stick to replies one'd expect to learn in the Uthman dan Fodio Institute (if there really is such a place). Amazing an African hater'd name his center after a FULANI.
You wrote
Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.
Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).
Glad to hear you finally admit it.
You also wrote
TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It
I'm trying to maintain a modicum of respect for you as a former 'teacher' from the Afrique Histoire and Afrikan Mwalimu days. Don't spoil it.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Tukuler you should be ashamed of yourself. You pretend you are proud of your ancestry then you play the Step and Fetch negro role.
quote:
Iffen I gives ya space will ya catch on in time that NE is NOT AP so I ain't gotta tell ya again for the 5th time. Alzheimers???????????????
You’re nothing but a big cry baby
You just don’t get it, showing that chart of gene frequency does not make you right.
* = highest value Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2
Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.
Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).
TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It
It is sad you support Eurocentric views, even when an author--Ennafaa- does not even support your undercover Eurocentrism. You take whatever YOU believe Europeans write to deny black history and run with it, even when your interpretation of data is wrong. Shame on you.
References:
Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA. 2004. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet 114:127–148.
Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. 2002. A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466–482.
Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJ, Tiwari PK, Bamezai RN. 2009. The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J Hum Genet 54:47–55.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
On Table S2 –
“H Haplotypes classified” means the “quantity' not “different type" of haplotypes. Essentially the 510(IP) means the sum of the haplotypes. It does NOT mean there are 510 different haplotypes in Iberia!! Do the math.
That is why quoting frequency alone is very mis-leading and deceptive. Most haplotypes could be exactly the SAME within Iberia. You need to dive deeper.
That is why spreadsheet S1 is where the “rubber hits the road” as I pointed out. Now once you understand that take it one step further and look at the data closely. Match-up the “unique” haplotypes, H*, between populations. Clearly, H*, between Arabia and North Africa is different. In the levant it is virtually absent except for, yeah, Jordan. But the population sampled with is Jordan is …you guessed it….Bedoiuns.
That is why Ennaafa concluded North Africa is NOT a subset of Arabia. Their H* and most other haplotypes do NOT match. She said “ Lack exclusivity”. Meaning Arabians did not back-migrate into North Africa. Islamic or otherwise.
As for Iberia, you your self agree that they carry signal of expansion FROM Africa.
I did look at the other supplementals but I dismissed them because S3 and S2 were meaningless for the discussion.
This is not rocket science.
Kefi et al (2014) is no longer needed.
.
Apparently what is rocket science to you is understanding Arabian Peninsula is not the Near East in Ennafaa (2009). You've been told over 6 X and still fudge it.
I know an old school farmer could use your strawman building skills. Not only about continued harping on AP by you and no one else but you mention H classified for any reason Again it's something you pulled from out your ...... pantry of strawman stuffing, nothing I ever commented on.
Here, instead of distorting Ennafaa as your fake mouthpiece read her, or go on continuing to lean upon your own misunderstanding.
Methods A total of 5,115 mtDNA sequences were analyzed. Of these, 1,231 belonged to the haplogroup H, defined as - 7025 AluI by RFLP screening. Four main geographic areas were covered by this study:
* the Iberian Peninsula (593 H individuals from a total of 1,349), * North Africa (224 H individuals from a total of 880), * the Near East (265 H individuals from a total of 1,201) * and the Arabian Peninsula (149 H individuals from a total of 1,685).
Detailed origin and geographic localization for all the samples are specified in Additional file 2.
* From the 1,231 individuals classified as H, * 1,114 could be assorted into one of 19 different H subgroups
by further screening for characteristic HVSI and/or HVSII sequence motifs, or diagnostic RFLPs (see Additional file 3).
*Analyzed individuals that could not been assorted into any of the known groups were considered as H* types.
Do you get it? Have you caught on yet? tic toc
The frequencies of my table are calculated from the number of H individuals divided by the total sample size and are in total agreement with Ennafaa's report.
I begin to think I may as well talk to my ash ...... tray as to try to school an ideologue like you who waives away facts that smash your a priori reasoning (which is really all you want to explore not what can be derived from genetic studies).
Talking to you may be a waste of energy. Maybe some lurker or surfer will benefit.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency are all highest in the Near East too.
That's incorrect, I don't know why Tukular said "all highest in the Near East."
.
I was only considering NA AP and NE. Call it my bad if it so pleases you.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
@Lioness- You are more clever and deceptive than I give you credit for.
I was just about to touch on Table1 that Sage posted. Looking closely at hHG +- se3 , TuB is at 85+-3. Significance?
That is Gene haplogroup diversity. This African group carry the highest diversity.
BTW- NA on the whole is lower because of the low values of Saharawis and Mau.
The two African groups exceed Both IP and AP. NE is the least.
To sum it up. Two North African groups carry the highest diveristy(hHG). And Unclassified H, H*, is highest North Africa.
Edit: Oh! The Saharawi's and Mau carry the highest frequency of pre-H/HV. (Pillars of Hercules) meaning they are an older population albeit Berbers. They, Saharawis also carry a high freqiency of YDNA R-V88 but their SNP data profile is 100% African, O% European!!! Meaning?!
.
You can't substitute a precise locale for a whole general region.
Berber Tunisia is not all of North Africa.
The hsubHG figure for * NA is 74 ± 2 * AP is 76 ± 3 * NE is 72 ± 3
Significance?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:
* a higher number of different haplotypes
* more unique haplotypes
* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa
* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.
Trollkillah, the above is the thread theme I don't know if you are capable of replying to it or you only reply to what I say
From your response, it's clear you don't understand what Clyde wrote. So you distorted his posts. You citing people is meaningless, because nine out of ten times you lie, fabricate and alter what people have posted.
It's already known that you are incapable of understanding complex sequences. So you have to stick to Hg's and their frequencies.
Clyde also wrote collateral archaeogenetic, and deep genetic correlation. Being in disagreement with Clyde is different from just bare lying about what he posted.
You lack any congruence. Just like those phylogenese and alleles, you missed, with in those sequences. And you still can't get your head around it. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians, I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.
Iberians have higher frequenices of Haplogroup H than North Africans, no question
Do the math it's called averages
Libya has 6.4 million people Haplogroup H frequency in Libya is 17-29% Only Libyan Tuaregs who number under 20,000 have H up to 61.2%
Tunisia has the highest frequencies of H in North Africa 31.3%
Europe averages 40% +
Spain averages 45%
Wales 58.8% (Sykes 2007)
Why are you making me repeat myself, your claim was proven false by my post that preceded it
The Bardo table also shows, France, Greece and Slovakia each to have higher H frequencies than North Africa
Really?
So who carries the older alleles/ phylogenese?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.
Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa? Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA Therefore a back migration
They were Preceded by the Romans. Hap H is also about 40% in Italians
You are right there was probably a back migration. It was a back migration of Vandal and Roman populations from Africa carrying hg H, into western Eurasia. This was a back migration of populations--not genomes. .
.
It could have been genomes, as in subclades.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.
Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.
The supplementals have it all...,,
Over 85% of people who say "I got this" don't got this
* HT Number of different haplotypes, highest, Iberian Penninsula 161 wide margin
* %hHT haplotype diversity Near East 97 Arabian Penninsula 96 Iberia and North Africa 93 narrow margin
As mentioned many times before, early Africans were the inhabitants of the Iberia, long before the modern population entered.
quote:The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
Migration from Africa to Europe took place, not the other way around.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago. From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion, Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8% Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians Italian Hap H = 40.2 + afrorementioned Turks of the barbary
There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics
The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.
I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.
.
Cosigned.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago. From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion, Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8% Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians Italian Hap H = 40.2 + afrorementioned Turks of the barbary
There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics
The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.
I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.
.
Cosigned.
you cosign the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe? How did the Romans and Vandals take hg H into Europe?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
BTW- NA on the whole is lower because of the low values of Saharawis and Mau.
The two African groups exceed Both IP and AP. NE is the least.
Edit: Oh! The Saharawi's and Mau carry the highest frequency of pre-H/HV. (Pillars of Hercules) meaning they are an older population albeit Berbers. They, Saharawis also carry a high freqiency of YDNA R-V88 but their SNP data profile is 100% African, O% European!!! Meaning?!
.
You can't substitute a precise locale for a whole general region.
Berber Tunisia is not all of North Africa.
The hsubHG figure for * NA is 74 ± 2 * AP is 76 ± 3 * NE is 72 ± 3
Significance? [/QB]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
There are only two scenarios that could explain the current geographic distribution observed for hg-H with the current diversity pattern from Arabia, North Africa and then Europe.
Either
1. Arabians AND Europeans BOTH back-migrated and settled in North Africa 2. Africans dispersed (from a central source) into Arabia and Iberia/Europe.
a. Within Europe there is a decrease in cline from West To East b. Arabia lacks the presence of specific clades of hg-H. ditto for Europe. c. North Africa has appreciable frequency of BOTH clade absent EITHER in Arabia or Europe. d. Ennaafa – observed the above details.
So as I said, Arabian AND European women back-migrated to North Africa or Africa was the source of the dispersal.
So what does the SNP tell us? Oh!....I forgot!....”basal Eurasian”! big picture fellas! big picture!
DNATribes, :Lazaridis and a few new resreach papers have confirmed this?
Giving you “space” have worked out. Now you have recognized hsubHG/ (hHG ± se),. You will figure it out. I will give more space. You will get there. You are well on your way.
Hint. Why is Tunisia almost 10 points higher(85%) than either Arabia/NE or IP.
Uber Africa!
------------ Quote The hsubHG/ (hHG ± se), figure for * NA is 74 ± 2 * AP is 76 ± 3 * NE is 72 ± 3
------------
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why is Tunisia almost 10 points higher(85%) than either Arabia/NE or IP.
Uber Africa!
------------ Quote The hsubHG/ (hHG ± se), figure for * NA is 74 ± 2 * AP is 76 ± 3 * NE is 72 ± 3 Moroccan Berbers 79 ± 3 Tunisian Ber 85 ± 3
------------
Use your head man! Don’t you find it odd/fascinating that BOTH jump off point to Europe has the highest (hHG ± se), Morocco and Tunisia are, what, 2000 miles away??!!! The Berbers have the highest. THEY ARE THE OLDEST POPULATION IN NORTH AFRICA. May be as old an the San, pygmies and Nilo-Saharans. Older t han the Bantus.
Further.
So what does the IBD tell us. Mesolithic African migrants to Europe. Henn et al What does the Archeology tell us. Mesolithic Africans to Europe. sources cited What does the Anthropology tell us Paleolithic/Mesolithic African to Europe. What does aDNA cattle tell us ….Mesolithic African cattle to Europe ..sources cited What does Sergi tell us… Mesolithic Africans to Europe ..source cited
In the Table you keep posting… Moroccan Berbers and Tunisian Berbers, two African populations, about 2000miles away, have the highest (hHG ± se), of ALL populations including NE/AP. These two populations are the closest region to “jump off’ point to Europe. The population with the next highest (hHG ± se), is AP, about, what 4000 miles way from Tunisia and 6000miles away from Morocco. The next highest is the NE, even lower than Iberia/Europe. The Balkans, Turkey etc do not even compare. . Significane? They were NOT the path of migration. .
I got this covered!!
I got this covered!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I no longer need Kefi(2014). I was about to bite the bullet and spend $45 on the paper. But Ennafaa had the answer right in front of me. Great idea to broach the subject again Dr Winters.That is why it is not a waste of time revsiting certain subjects with NOT tired eyes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
del. DP
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Modern Euroepans are an admixture of first OOA migrants and later Africans migrants. There is a reason why Southern Europeans have more African/Basal Eurasian. Don’t let the name/label fool you. Don’t get it twisted my friend.
Europeans are an admixture of different peoples. Hg-U is further North….Where have I heard that before…hmmmm….yeah…that’s right…now I remember…..Lazardis et al.
And it was NOT through the Levant. Sergi and others figured that out more than a century ago.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.
[QUOTE]The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
---different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb ****is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic**** in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago. From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion, Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8% Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians Italian Hap H = 40.2 + afrorementioned Turks of the barbary
There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics
The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.
I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.
.
Cosigned.
you cosign the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe? How did the Romans and Vandals take hg H into Europe?
Stop asking me stupid questions, when you yourself don't respond to adequate questions being asked towards you.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
H is of a single mitochondrial locus. Unable to deal with Ennafaa's facts about H, as seen in the standard four indicators that predict haplogroup origin per Cruciani et al (2004)
* number of different clades * frequency * microsatellite diversity * presence of paragroup
Xyyman tries to pull off a bait and switch to an unidentified 'the SNP' (autosomal, nrY, X ???).
Ideologically displeased that regionally the AP has the highest hHG value and unable to comment on what it signifies Xyyman again pulls out a single population (Berber Tunisia) to mask another single population (Sahara) has the lowest hHG and NA's overall hHG is lower than the AP's.
What is the difference between Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity) and Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?
Which is more relevant in aiding determining haplogroup origin and why?
Xyyman is unable to look at the big picture re Hg H in all its tabulated compositions in Ennafaa in order to latch onto the one bit here one bit there that fits his a priori Afrika Uber Alles ideology acting like many bytes here many bytes there tearing it to shreds don't exist.
Typical of the Ostrich Theory that ducking his head in the sand to avoid seeing what he'd rather not see never realizing his ass is exposed. That way, though he indeed feels it, he can't see what's kicking his bare ass and so imagines it is not being kicked.
I just can't go on risking my own mental health entertaining Xyyman lunacies written in his trademark eccentric hard to follow style. (Sorry man I can't take you this time no way -- it too hot, maybe when it's late fall/winter/early spring when lower humidity eases the Brownian motion I can tolerate it.)
I must rest with what I wrote over the past week, summed up below, on why hg H the parent of all H sub-clades is thought to originate in the NE Africa Extension rather than in neither continental Africa nor Europe (Iberia nor else where).
* = highest value Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2
My goal is not to convince posters but to educate who ever comes to ES to learn. In turn I want to be taught by posters who have a logical straight forward unconvoluted non-contortionist logical and Cartesian mind and scientific non-proprietary references.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Xyyman Agrees with me that the following determines “origin”. ---
• 1. number of different clades(higher in AP and NA. Lower in Europe) • 2 frequency(higher in Europe and some North African population lower in AP) • 3 microsatellite diversity(Higher in AP then NA lastly Europe) • 4 presence of paragroup(highest in NA ansd then AP lowest in Euroep) • 5. Haplogroup and haplotype sub-sets. I forgot to add this which shows AP is NOT ancestral to North African 6. Haplogroup and Haplotype distribution. Which shows ALL are present in Africa but some are absent in either AP or Europe. 7. I agree with xyyman – I need to take ALL into consideration. I need to see the big picture. • . But Xyyman tries to pull off a bait and switch(But it only appears that way to the unknowledgeable) • Xyyman again pulls out TWO populations (Berber Tunisia and Berber Morocco) which inhabit a bridge to Europe to demonstrate Africans have higher diversity of hHG ± se (haplogroup diversity) than AP and Iberia within mtDNA Hg-H. The diversity is at least 10 point higher in some North African populations. But I will ignore that.
What is the difference between Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity) – North Africa has the edge over AP and Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?- AP has the edge over North Africa.
•
I just can't go on risking my own mental health entertaining Xyyman interpretation written in his trademark eccentric hard to follow style.
I must rest with what I wrote ….I am not going to discuss this further.
.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
No Arab women and European women both back-migrated to the Sahara 35,000ya. I guess they love the black male....sic.
But Seriously - there is no race. Modern Europeans are an admixture of older African migrants and recent African migrants adpated to live at specifc latitudes.
Modern Europeans are a sub-set of modern Continental Africans. Just as North Africans are a sub-set of SSA.
This is not rocket science.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why I ignored Table 3 and concentrated on Table 1 (hHG ± se (haplogroup diversity). Think of a tree with branches and the branches have leaves. Typically the older the tree the more branches(sub-haplogroup) it has. But an abundance of leaves(Haplotyes) does not necessarily mean I am looking at an older tree. I not sure you know what Ennaafa is trying to prove? The point of her whole paper. Some of us may have missed it. It is not to show AP affinity to North Africa. But to show NA affinity to IP. She summed it up with this… IP (IP IHT) at 0.21. TABLE 3 I will give your space you will understand Table 3.
But what she provded instead is showing an African origin of mtDNA HG-H. -------- Quote: What is the difference between Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity) and Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?-.
---------
She is suggesting that 0.21 is greater than 0.16 therefore North Africa shares more haplotypes with Iberia Europe than North Africa shares with the Arabian Peninsular. That is the point of Table 3. This is what her paper is leading to.
But in trying to be Eurocentric(Ennaafa) a few pieces of information was unknowingly divulge. Eg within North Africa certain populations are extremely diverse. %sHTNA for the SAh and TunB are ***Zero***, meaning?, Although they carry mt-DNA H they share no haplotype with the rest of North Africa. Significance?
Man- I can school you for days on end.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What Ennaafa has done is the typical Eurocentric data manipulation. Eg in Table 3 she did not show a comparason between the SAH and TUB to Iberians. Which would have been very important for her premise. Instead she grouped North Africans when it was convenient to her to make her point. But some of us are unto her game.
These are the same SAH who carry ***zero*** European SNP/AIM but carry mt-DNA hg-H AND the paragroup hg-V(Pillars of Hercules…..). Significance. SAH were MtDNA hg-H long long long before European probably existed.
Beyoku, Am I right with Table 3? We are back to my TunisianB and your Saharawis again. What is up with these two populations?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
------ The Jordanian population where Ennaafa got her “Near East” dataset from …. González et al. 2008.
Background: The Levant is a crucial region in understanding human migrations between Africa and Eurasia. Although some mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) studies have been carried out in this region, they have not included the Jordan area. This paper deals with the mtDNA composition of two Jordan populations.
Aim: The main objectives of this article are: first, to report mtDNA sequences of an urban and an isolate sample from Jordan and, second, to compare them with each other and with other nearby populations. Subjects and methods: The analyses are based on HVSI and HVSII mtDNA sequences and diagnostic RFLPs to unequivocally classify into haplogroups 101 Amman and 44 Dead Sea unrelated individuals from Jordan.
Results: Statistical analysis revealed that, whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbours, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its outstanding Eurasian haplogroup U3 frequency (39%) and its south-Saharan Africa lineages (19%) are the highest in the Middle East. On the contrary, the lack ((preHV)1) or comparatively low frequency (J and T) of Neolithic lineages is also striking. Although strong drift by geographic isolation could explain the anomalous mtDNA pool of the Dead Sea sample, the fact that its mtDNA lineage composition mirrors, in geographic origin and haplogroup frequencies, its Y-chromosome pool, points to founder effect as the main cause. Ancestral M1 lineages detected in Jordan that have affinities with those recently found in Northwest but not East Africa question the African origin of the M1 haplogroup.
Conclusion: Results are in agreement with an old human settlement in the Jordan region. However, in spite of the attested migratory spreads, genetically divergent populations, such as that of the Dead Sea, still exist in the area. ---
Classes will continue at a later date.
These Euros. I know all their games. Time you do to. You have been at this long enough.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No Arab women and European women both back-migrated to the Sahara 35,000ya. I guess they love the black male....sic.
But Seriously - there is no race. Modern Europeans are an admixture of older African migrants and recent African migrants adpated to live at specifc latitudes.
Modern Europeans are a sub-set of modern Continental Africans. Just as North Africans are a sub-set of SSA.
This is not rocket science.
And archeological, anthropology and genetic data shows that population replacement took place, in Europe by recent modern Europeans to older African populations.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
To those who have a problem with “my”Bedoiuns s in the the Levant. What the author is saying is that the genetic composition of the Bedoiuns are identical to Africans(North/South). They are the founder population IN the Levant. Get it! got it! Most of present population in the Levant are new to the area. These same Bedoiuns also mirror the peoples of Southern Arabia. That is why it is extremely important to look at the sub-populations being sampled.
I KNOW ALL THEIR GAMES.
Oh! These Bedoiuns are the closest match to aDNA recently discovered in the Neolithic peoples of the Levant. Sources cited. On ESR. I got this.!
So Beyoku/AMRTU – see why Sardinia and the Bedoiuns are so important when sampling. -------- Quote: and its(Bedoiun) south-Saharan Africa lineages (19%) are the highest in the Middle East. On the contrary, the lack ((preHV)1) or comparatively low frequency (J and T) of Neolithic lineages is also striking. Although strong drift by geographic isolation could explain the anomalous mtDNA pool of the Dead Sea sample, the fact that its mtDNA lineage composition mirrors, in geographic origin and haplogroup frequencies, its Y-chromosome pool, points to founder effect as the main cause. Ancestral M1 lineages detected in Jordan that have affinities with those recently found in Northwest Africa --------
The Bediouns are the last remaining pocket of “Africa” remaining in the Levant. The “proxy”.
Where Am I going with this? To those who are having difficulty following the thread. The NE peoples who are significant carriers of the h Haplotype being discussed here are …….Jordanians. Jordanians, more specifically – Jordanians Bedoiuns, carry the hg-H haplotypes. The other Levant populations Syrians, Lebanese etc do not carry appreciable amounts of hg-H haplotypes.
My buddy missed that one.
Henn et al did the exact same thing with her infamous “back-migration” paper. She chose Qatar as her “Middle East” population rep. After close examination, outside of Yemen, Qatar is the most Africanized population outside of Africa. The genetic makeup of Qatar is identical to Sahara/Sahel region. An admixture of North Africans and SSA.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: And archeological, anthropology and genetic data shows that population replacement took place, in Europe by recent modern Europeans to older African populations.
So if H originates in Africa and modern Europeans are 40-45% H then modern Europeans, maternally, are largely indigenous North Africans who repalced other Europeans 4,500 years ago. This is exactly what you are saying if logic is applied 1+1=2
Now moving on to the Y DNA
^^^ Xyyman look at all the R1 (red)
compare that to the North Africans, E3 try completing the picture
So you are saying berber African women wandered into Europe and brought the 40-45% hap H with them? why did they want to go there?
that's right xyyman, you have no explanation, just ignore this and keep riffin Just remember there's a hole in the boat, the Y DNA
x, why man ? tic toc...
Oh I forgot R1 is African too Let's see if we can make this work So when did R1 arrive in Europe? hmmmm....
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
You don't get it, do you? R-M269 is NOT the genetic counter-part to mtDNA hg-H. Current aDNA shows that hg-H entered Europe 5000y!!! ahead of R-M269 by about 4000years. Achilli got it wrong.
Kefi aDNA observed hg-H in Africa since 12,000YA!!!!!
The enigma is the Western European male line, yes. Enough data has not been disclosed as yet. But Clearly the male line was NOT present in Europe until about the bronze age.
I believe(this is a conjecture), that R-V88 geographic pattern holds the clue to break this wide open.
Three Africanize populations carry a high frequency R-V88...outside of Canmeroon and SSA.
1. Saharawis 2. Siwa Berbers and 3. ...you guessed in.... my Bedoiuns of the Levant.
Significance? Exit points OUT Africa.
But I am getting ahead of myself!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Now in terms of Y-DNA the confused one above may very well have a point. I and others have pointed out in multiple occasions that NRY hg R* is not only found in Central and West Africa at significant frequencies but their frequencies in Egypt and (some) Arabian bedouin may show expansions. What's more is that in Jordan while R is relatively rare to nonexistent today there are skeletal remains from the Bronze Age that showed significant frequencies of R as well as E in contrast to the predominant J lineages found in modern populations of the same area.
Still in regards to mitochondrial hg H I await for evidence of higher diversity of basal H in Africa than in Eurasia.
In my opinion, the claim that pre-HV (hg R0) being African seems much more plausible than hg H.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: And archeological, anthropology and genetic data shows that population replacement took place, in Europe by recent modern Europeans to older African populations.
So if H originates in Africa and modern Europeans are 40-45% H then modern Europeans, maternally, are largely indigenous North Africans who repalced other Europeans 4,500 years ago. This is exactly what you are saying if logic is applied 1+1=2
Now moving on to the Y DNA
^^^ Xyyman look at all the R1 (red)
compare that to the North Africans, E3 try completing the picture
So you are saying berber African women wandered into Europe and brought the 40-45% hap H with them? why did they want to go there?
that's right xyyman, you have no explanation, just ignore this and keep riffin Just remember there's a hole in the boat, the Y DNA
x, why man ? tic toc...
Oh I forgot R1 is African too Let's see if we can make this work So when did R1 arrive in Europe? hmmmm....
The funny part is that this math is not based on 1+1=2. But more complex algorithms.
And as i stated before, I am not talking about a Haplotype name. That just a name. For that matter they could have called such marker, lioness is delusional. That would be exactly the same.
I however, speak of alleles and SNP's within the defining sequences. The ancestral alleles within Africans are evident of this.
And perhaps you can explain why chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor in BT? In large parts of west Africa and this haplotype is being carried. Don't be shocked if you carry this as well.
quote:
The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).
These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
so this DNA is reflected in modern Finnish people?
Some of the Turaeg have high frequnecies of haplogroups H1, H3 and V. (although low diversity) Libyan Tuareg were recorded by Ottoni at about 63% H Modern Fins have Haplogroup H 36.3% But yet H is at high frequency not only in Finland but all over Europe so this Viking scenario doesn't explain that degree of spread
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
so this DNA is reflected in modern Finnish people?
Some of the Turaeg have high frequnecies of haplogroups H1, H3 and V. (although low diversity) Libyan Tuareg were recorded by Ottoni at about 63% H Modern Fins have Haplogroup H 36.3% But yet H is at high frequency not only in Finland but all over Europe so this Viking scenario doesn't explain that degree of spread
A percentage has nothing to do with it. In Africa they carry the ancestral alleles/ SNP's of the Hg H sequence. As was shown many times before.
And that older post of mine has nothing to do with this subject. You are mixed up in the head, thus mix up my posts.
That older post explains why Vikings knew about blacks amongst them. As was proposed by Van Sertima's black Vikings as did Dr. Clarke.
It also explains the Moors (Mohr) and their color complexion, now that I come to think of it.
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Early Medieval Muslim Graves in France: First Archaeological, Anthropological and Palaeogenomic Evidence Yves Gleize , Fanny Mendisco , Marie-Hélène Pemonge, Christophe Hubert, Alexis Groppi, Bertrand Houix, Marie-France Deguilloux, Jean-Yves Breuil
Published: February 24, 2016DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0148583
Abstract
The rapid Arab-Islamic conquest during the early Middle Ages led to major political and cultural changes in the Mediterranean world. Although the early medieval Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula is now well documented, based in the evaluation of archeological and historical sources, the Muslim expansion in the area north of the Pyrenees has only been documented so far through textual sources or rare archaeological data. Our study provides the first archaeo-anthropological testimony of the Muslim establishment in South of France through the multidisciplinary analysis of three graves excavated at Nimes. First, we argue in favor of burials that followed Islamic rites and then note the presence of a community practicing Muslim traditions in Nimes. Second, the radiometric dates obtained from all three human skeletons (between the 7th and the 9th centuries AD) echo historical sources documenting an early Muslim presence in southern Gaul (i.e., the first half of 8th century AD). Finally, palaeogenomic analyses conducted on the human remains provide arguments in favor of a North African ancestry of the three individuals, at least considering the paternal lineages. Given all of these data, we propose that the skeletons from the Nimes burials belonged to Berbers integrated into the Umayyad army during the Arab expansion in North Africa. Our discovery not only discusses the first anthropological and genetic data concerning the Muslim occupation of the Visigothic territory of Septimania but also highlights the complexity of the relationship between the two communities during this period.
Results and Discussion
Three burials with clear evidence of Muslim funerary customs
The graves SP7080, SP7089 and SP9269 present a number of common and specific characteristics that were not recorded in other medieval burials in this area. In each of the graves, the body, which may have been wrapped, was directly placed into the pit on its right-hand side facing southeast (in the direction of Mecca). The upper limbs were generally extended, and the lower limbs were extended and sometimes crossed. The burial practices and the position of the bodies clearly correspond to medieval and modern Muslim burial customs
Muslim presence confirmed by textual sources
Textual sources, specifically the Moissac and Uzès chronicles, offer a significant testimony to the complex and unstable historical context of the Nimes region during the early Middle Ages. They notably attest to a Muslim presence or travel in Nimes between 719 and 752 AD
Three adult males of North African ancestry
An anthropological analysis shows that the three skeletons are those of male adults (S1 File). Although it is difficult to be certain of the biological identity of these individuals, several anthropological characteristics can be highlighted. The skeletons did not show any marks indicating death resulting from fighting. The skeleton from SP7080 displayed an incomplete fusion between the right pisiform bone and the hamate bone (S2 Fig). This extremely rare fusion, mainly seen in African populations, suggests an African origin for the Nimes human remains (e.g., [41–42]).
Because the palaeogenomic data support a North African paternal ancestry of the three individuals from the graves, we believe that they were Berbers integrated into the Arab army during its rapid expansion through North Africa. Such conclusions are in perfect accordance with the ones deriving from the isotopic analyses conducted on two individuals from Plaza del Castillo in Pamplona [47].
North African haplotype E1b1b1b-M81 [12, 44] in all three males’ DNA samples (S3 Table).
If the paternal lineage E-M81 and the maternal lineage L1c3 characterized implies with a high degree of probability a North African origin for all Nimes individuals, we have to note that the large distribution of mtDNA lineages H1 and K (both in North Africa and Europe) do not permit to drive any clear conclusion concerning individuals' maternal ancestry. Indeed, the determination of these maternal lineages on Nimes burials may be both the result of a direct North African maternal origin and the result of admixture between migrating Muslims and local European women. If the low discriminatory power of mtDNA does not permit us to decide between both hypotheses, genome-wide data may permit to precise individuals' ancestries in the next future. Nevertheless, if admixture between Muslims and European women is well established for later al-Andalus periods (genetically established for sites in Andalusia dating to the 12th-13th centuries; [11]), such admixture had not been raised so far for the very first Muslim groups arriving in Europe. If admixture with local women was confirmed concerning Nimes individuals, these data would constitute the most ancient evidence of admixture in the al-Andalus context.
Apart from the mitochondrial haplogroup H1, the maternal and paternal lineages detected in the three Nimes individuals are relatively rare in modern-day France [52]. In comparison to the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, it appears clear that the genetic impact of the Arab rule was less significant in France.
Nice find. This confirms my earlier claim that Africans probably introduced H1 during the Muslim colonization of Europe.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Nice find. This confirms my earlier claim that Africans probably introduced H1 during the Muslim colonization of Europe.
So since H1 is by far the most common maternal subclade in Europe than maternally, modern Europeans are a basically a Tuareg/North African people.
So who were the Europeans before being replaced by this 8th century introduction of H1 to the continent ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.
Consigned, this was shown many times.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
That is why modern Europeans are about 70% EEF. EEF replaced WHG/La Brana who was essentially Australiods.
Caraborated by Rosenbergh et al
Also. Observe in the new study. Basal mDNA M is found in aDNA in ancient Europeans going back to the Paleolithic. Indicative of Australians.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why modern Europeans are about 70% EEF. EEF replaced WHG/La Brana who was essentially Australiods.
Caraborated by Rosenbergh et al
Also. Observe in the new study. Basal mDNA M is found in aDNA in ancient Europeans going back to the Paleolithic. Indicative of Australians.
Whites are not 70% WHG,_EEF, or_ANE. Whites originated in Central Asia, and came into Europe after the Kushite migration and have nothing to do with these Neolithic populations.
M was not introduced to Europe by Australians. I believe M was originally introduced by the Khoisan in Europe and the Americas--not Australians. The Australians probably early settled, India, Brazil and Australia.
The Australians may have spread L3(M) across Africa into the Americas.The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of nonAfrican L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006). See: http://bioresonline.org/archives/A130.pdf
Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material has been found near Cap Manuel (Giresse, 2008), Gambia River in Senegal (Davies,1967; WaiOgussu, 1973); and Cap Vert (Phillipson,2005). These people probably settled Brazil 100,000 years.
Dr.Nieda Guidon hypothesized that man appeared in Brazil 100,000 years ago from Africa. She illustrated that her hypothesis was confirmed by 1) structures to make fire, i.e. hearths,2) stone tools and charcoal was found in the hearths that date back 100kya,3) the Ice Age prevented people from reaching Brazil from Asia, while the winds and currents would have carried people directly from Africa to Brazil.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.
Consigned, this was shown many times.
LOL. Even if mtDNA H, was part of the Neolithic package does not mean its distribution among whites is the result of a Neolithic inheritance. It is not a Neolithic relic because there were no whites in Europe during the Neolithic.
The descendants of the the Neolithic carriers of H, would have been killed off by the whites as they took control of Europe,over the past 2000 years. As a result, the most probable spread of this haplogroup took place during the Muslim expansion into Europe after the invasion of Yusuf ibn Tashufin.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic