Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You don't have a crutch much less a leg to stand on.
Your below comment describes your stance to a T.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You base your opinion on your own beliefs instead of actual data.
.
Does this look like data or my beliefs?
Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the Near East has the highest H* frequency. She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency are all highest in the Near East too.
All that data scares you to death. Ignoring won't make it go away.
When and if you bring similar African H data published by degreed professional molecular biologists/population geneticists that counters the above then you will have a legitimate case.
Meanwhile, haplogroup H probably did not originate in continental Africa.
Now go ahead and repeat yourself for the 5th time reposting Badro's frequency only charts. Why can't you do more than misrepresent Libyan Sahara 'Tuareg' H1 frequency as H?
Why can't you bring some paragroup and diversity stats?
Don't excuse yourself or deprecate it.
Bring the data on it.
Oh? What's that you say? You say you don't have any?
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posted
At least we all agree mtDNA Haplgroup-H do NOT have an European origin..right?
== Quote: Significance? Only with a comprehensive fine resolution of analysis of mtDNA hg-H will the origin be resolved. Kefi?
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posted
I agree that this table suggest an Arabian origin of mtDNA hg-H BUT NOT an European origin!
That said. All clades of H is virtual absent in the Egyptian region, as many studies have shown. This geographic pattern suggest Southern Sahara origin may be Great Lakes. R0 has highest frequency in Southern Arabia and Nubia/Sudan region(sources cited already) What is also perplexing is the frequency of H* and the presence of the sub-clades in both Tunisia(central Magrheb) and Southern Arabia. Note that H13 and the older clades has high frequency IN southern Arabia. This again confirms Egypt was a barrier and "owned" by SSA. If there was migration FROM Arabia to the Maghreb it was NOT through Egypt/Levant.
The pattern confirms an African origin. To be confirmed by Kefi(2014).
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ]
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posted
The lingusitic connection is there also. Afroasiatic is found in the Maghreba nd the Arabian peninsular. AA having an African origin.
We need to look at ALL data.
Indeed there is close connection between Arabia and the Maghreb. The "direction" of migration seem to be Africa to Arabia....all data considered.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The lingusitic connection is there also. Afroasiatic is found in the Maghreba nd the Arabian peninsular. AA having an African origin.
We need to look at ALL data.
Indeed there is close connection between Arabia and the Maghreb. The "direction" of migration seem to be Africa to Arabia....all data considered.
posted
The idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe or the Near East to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration from the Near East there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt, than in the rest of Africa.
This geographic pattern does not suggest a Great Lakes origin because the map does not show much hg H among Ethiopians and Kenyans . If it had originated in Great Lakes region there would be a higher frequency of hg H in the region.
. .
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I agree that this table suggest an Arabian origin of mtDNA hg-H BUT NOT an European origin! That said. All clades of H is virtual absent in the Egyptian region, as many studies have shown. This geographic pattern suggest Southern Sahara origin may be Great Lakes. R0 has highest frequency in Southern Arabia and Nubia/Sudan region(sources cited already) What is also perplexing is the frequency of H* and the presence of the sub-clades in both Tunisia(central Magrheb) and Southern Arabia. Note that H13 and the older clades has high frequency IN southern Arabia. This again confirms Egypt was a barrier and "owned" by SSA. If there was migration FROM Arabia to the Maghreb it was NOT through Egypt/Levant.
The pattern confirms an African origin. To be confirmed by Kefi(2014).
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ]
The presence of multiple H clades in Africa shows that diversity of hg H existed in Africa. As I said originally, the absence of H clades in Egypt proves that hg H originated in Africa and not the NE.
Since the rise of Islam , numerous Arab populations migrated into Egypt including Yemenis. It stands to reason that if hg H originated in the NE, there should be carriers of this haplogroup in Egypt--NOT. This supports my theory that hg H entered Eurasia from the West.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. Below are a few quotes from the paper by Holliday they show that the population at this time were Negroid in Southwest Asia.
"In this light, some of the more robust assignments (albeit not 95% of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids to the sub-Saharan African sample (e.g., Qafzeh 8 at 85%, Skhul 4 at 71%) are remarkable indeed" (p. 62).
"The Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have sometimes been refered to as "Proto-CroMagnons" (e.g., Howell 1957; Vandermeersch 1996) because of their presumed similarity to the famous Aurignacian-associated hominids from Western Europe....Specifically [Brace], he notes that "in both the details of its dental and craniological size and from Qafzeh is an unlikely proto-Cro-Magnon, but it makes a fine model for the ancestors of modern sub-Saharan Africans"(p.63).
"taken as a whole, the work of Tchernov seems to support the findings of the current research that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have their origins in Africa, while the Neanderthals are from cold to temperate biomes"(p.64).
"The current study demonstrates African-like affinities in the body shape of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This finding is consistent with craniofacial evidence (Brace 1996) and with zooarchaeological data indicating the presence of African fauna at Qafzeh (Rabinovich and Tchernov 1995; Tchernov 1988, 1992)" (p.64).\
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
As I said earlier there were only SSA in western Eurasia and the Levant so Africans were continually migrating into the region depositing their haplogroups.
Where are your non-Sub-Saharan Africans in Eurasia, who you claim were the originators of hg H.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Good job trying to distract and coverup the genetics.
You're talking everything but molecular biology. Wishology don't cut it. One type of data (freq) don't either. Overturn all that data from here
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency are all highest in the Near East too.
Xyyman note, it's Near East not Arabian Peninsula and nobody buy you said anything about a Europe origin. What are you doing building strawmen to knock down?
Are there any basal nrY Hgs that originated in Europe?
Got to hand it to you though for not confusing mtDNA R for nrY R the way Clyde did. Of course it is M N and R basal Hgs whose origins are still questioned by some population geneticists (now where is that chart I base that on TP?.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Good job trying to distract and coverup the genetics.
You're talking everything but molecular biology. Wishology don't cut it. One type of data (freq) don't either. Overturn all that data from here
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency are all highest in the Near East too.
Xyyman note, it's Near East not Arabian Peninsula and nobody buy you said anything about a Europe origin. What are you doing building strawmen to knock down?
No. There is no cover-up of the genetics, I am looking at the frequency and variety of hg H in Northwest Africa and the Sahara and its absence in Egypt; along with the evidence that Sub-Saharan Africans have always been migrating into the Near East and took hg H into the Near East.
The idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe or the Near East to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration from the Near East there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt, than in the rest of Africa.
This geographic pattern does not suggest a Great Lakes origin because the map does not show much hg H among Ethiopians and Kenyans . If it had originated in Great Lakes region there would be a higher frequency of hg H in the region.
. .
The presence of multiple H clades in Africa shows that diversity of hg H existed in Africa. As I said originally, the absence of H clades in Egypt proves that hg H originated in Africa and not the NE.
Since the rise of Islam , numerous Arab populations migrated into Egypt including Yemenis. It stands to reason that if hg H originated in the NE, there should be carriers of this haplogroup in Egypt--NOT. This supports my theory that hg H entered Eurasia from the West.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. Below are a few quotes from the paper by Holliday they show that the population at this time were Negroid in Southwest Asia.
"In this light, some of the more robust assignments (albeit not 95% of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids to the sub-Saharan African sample (e.g., Qafzeh 8 at 85%, Skhul 4 at 71%) are remarkable indeed" (p. 62).
"The Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have sometimes been refered to as "Proto-CroMagnons" (e.g., Howell 1957; Vandermeersch 1996) because of their presumed similarity to the famous Aurignacian-associated hominids from Western Europe....Specifically [Brace], he notes that "in both the details of its dental and craniological size and from Qafzeh is an unlikely proto-Cro-Magnon, but it makes a fine model for the ancestors of modern sub-Saharan Africans"(p.63).
"taken as a whole, the work of Tchernov seems to support the findings of the current research that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have their origins in Africa, while the Neanderthals are from cold to temperate biomes"(p.64).
"The current study demonstrates African-like affinities in the body shape of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This finding is consistent with craniofacial evidence (Brace 1996) and with zooarchaeological data indicating the presence of African fauna at Qafzeh (Rabinovich and Tchernov 1995; Tchernov 1988, 1992)" (p.64).\
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
As I said earlier there were only SSA in western Eurasia and the Levant so Africans were continually migrating into the region depositing their haplogroups.
Where are your non-Sub-Saharan Africans in Eurasia, who you claim were the originators of hg H.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Data Clyde data not repeating the same non-molecular biology rhetoric.
Can't do it can you?
Like a cross to Dracula the data is to you.
* Number of different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequency are all highest in the Near East too.
Da data be da killuh.
R.I.P.
This data means nothing. It has no relevance because genetic data without corresponding archeogenetic evidence is empty rhetoric.
It is easy to explain why the :
* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East. They are highest there because of the homogeneity of near Eastern populations that have been influenced by the original SSA, and succeeding non-African populations into the area including, the Turks, Arabs, Mongolians, Slavic speakers, Indo-European speakers. This homogeneity has led to more mutations within the less homogenous Near Eastern populations, than the African populations.
Because Haplogroup H originated in Northwest Africa and the Sahara, there would be
* fewer different haplotypes * few unique haplotypes * less haplotype diversity * lower unique haplotype frequency
because, the African populations would be more homogeneous. Except, for the Vandal invasion of Northwest Africa, Black Berber and Tuareg populations have remained stable.
A Near East origin of hg H lacks any collateral archaeogenetic evidence to support the genomic data. The major factor disputing a Near East origin of hg H, is the homogeneity of Near Eastern populations, other factors include your failure to:
1) explain why hg H is not in Egypt
2)Why there is no archaeological or historical evidence of NE people migrating through Western Europe and depositing hg H in Northwest Africa, but there is abundance of evidence of population replacement in the Near East; and
3)Where is the linguistic evidence supporting a NE population in western Eurasia .
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Hahahahaha! What a last gasp.
Data that plainly and clearly falsifies your ideology is meaningless, eh?
Da data be da killuh.
R.I.P.
Dearly beloved we are gathered here today to pay our last respects to Jive Ass FilabusterPosts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hahahahaha! What a last gasp.
Data that plainly and clearly falsifies your ideology is meaningless, eh?
Da data be da killuh.
R.I.P.
Dearly beloved we are gathered here today to pay our last respects to Jive Ass Filabuster
LOL. You have failed to falsify Badro et al, and you have no archaeogenetic data to support your proposition because you fail to understand how to conduct properly the study of population genetics, which must be supported by data from archaeology, anthropology and etc.
Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:
* a higher number of different haplotypes
* more unique haplotypes
* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa
* and a higher unique haplotype frequency. In addition there is no collateral archaeogenetic evidence to support the genomic data. The major factor disputing a Near East origin of hg H, is the homogeneity of Near Eastern populations, other factors include the failure of researchers to:
1) explain why hg H is not in Egypt
2)Why there is no archaeological or historical evidence of NE people migrating through Western Europe and depositing hg H in Northwest Africa, but there is abundance of evidence of population replacement in the Near East; and
3)Where is the linguistic evidence supporting a NE population in western Eurasia .
A North African origin for hg H is parsimonious. It is supported by the evidence of numerous and constant migrations of African populations into the Near East. Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. Thusly, the genomic evidence of hg H in the Near East , correlates with skeletal, flora and fauna evidence of SSA populations in the Near East up to 4kya. The genomic evidence also indicate that in Northwest Africa and the Sahara there are
* different haplotypes * unique haplotypes * haplotype diversity * unique haplotype frequencies This archaeogenetic evidence leads to a number of inferences which is made evident by the Badro et al (2013) . the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary,there is no archaeogenetic data supporting an expansion of Near Easterners into western Eurasia. As a result, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hahahahaha! What a last gasp.
Data that plainly and clearly falsifies your ideology is meaningless, eh?
Da data be da killuh.
R.I.P.
Dearly beloved we are gathered here today to pay our last respects to Jive Ass Filabuster
You talk about the data when you don't even understand it. Ennafaa et al (2009) never claimed a middle East origin for hg H, this was you own imagination. It is sad that you would attempt to invent a lie to make it appear you are right. Below is the Abstract:
quote:
Abstract Background: The Strait of Gibraltar separating the Iberian Peninsula from North Africa is thought to be a stronger barrier to gene flow for male than for female lineages. However, the recent subdivision of the haplogroup H at mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) level has revealed greater genetic differentiation among geographic regions than previously detected. The dissection of the mtDNA haplogroup H in North Africa, and its comparison with the Iberian Peninsula and Near-East profiles would help clarify the relative affinities among these regions.
Results: Like the Iberian Peninsula, the dominant mtDNA haplogroup H subgroups in North Africa are H1 (42%) and H3 (13%). The similarity between these regions is stronger in the North-West edge affecting mainly Moroccan Arabs, West Saharans and Mauritanians,][/b and decreases eastwardsprobably due to gene flow from Near East as attested for the higher frequencies of H4, H5, H7,H8 and H11 subgroups. Moroccan Berbers show stronger affinities with Tunisian and Tunisian Berbers than with Moroccan Arabs. Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky) in North Africa point to the possibility of a late Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups. Total and partial mtDNA genomic sequencing unveiled stronger mtDNA differentiation among regions than previously found using HVSI mtDNA based analysis.
Conclusion: The subdivision of the mtDNA haplogroup H in North Africa has confirmed that the genetic differentiation found among Western and Eastern populations is mainly due to geographical rather than cultural barriers.[b] It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect. Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought. Based on this new information, it seems that the Strait of Gibraltar barrier affected both male and female gene flow in a similar fashion.
You are such a liar about a Near Eastern origin of Hg H. And as noted by Ennafaa (2009), the research It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect.
posted
Ha! Ha! Ha! I am not making strawman argument. I making a statement of fact based upon the data presented by Enaaffa. That the data shows hg-H did NOT originate in Europe. Her data however shows more likely the origin is in the Arabian region. Enaaffa data shows Arabia has only a slight edge over Africa as the origin of mtDNA hg-H. The geographic pattern however shows the strong presence of the upstream H* and Older clades in “southern Arabia/Yemen” and North Africa. With lower frequency in the Levant and virtual absence in Egypt. That tells me there is a southern Arabia/North Africa connection….meaning Arabia was NOT the source but the recipient. Highest frequency of upstream R0 is found in Arabia AND Sudan region. In addition. The high presence of HV in Western Africa and the high frequency of the other sub-clades such H1 and H3 in Africa and Iberia/Italy also points to an African origin for the macro-group. The decrease cline from West to East of H in Europe also points to an African origin.
If I am a betting man. I am with Dr Winters on an African origin. Time …or Kefi will tell.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
We can all agree that mtDNA hg-H does NOT have a European origin.
More to come on this. Maybe I will bite the bullet and purchase the Kefi paper.
@Lioness - Maybe i will sell my next set of foodstamps.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ha! Ha! Ha! I am not making strawman argument. I making a statement of fact based upon the data presented by Enaaffa. That the data shows hg-H did NOT originate in Europe. Her data however shows more likely the origin is in the Arabian region. Enaaffa data shows Arabia has only a slight edge over Africa as the origin of mtDNA hg-H. The geographic pattern however shows the strong presence of the upstream H* and Older clades in “southern Arabia/Yemen” and North Africa. With lower frequency in the Levant and virtual absence in Egypt. That tells me there is a southern Arabia/North Africa connection….meaning Arabia was NOT the source but the recipient. Highest frequency of upstream R0 is found in Arabia AND Sudan region. In addition. The high presence of HV in Western Africa and the high frequency of the other sub-clades such H1 and H3 in Africa and Iberia/Italy also points to an African origin for the macro-group. The decrease cline from West to East of H in Europe also points to an African origin.
If I am a betting man. I am with Dr Winters on an African origin. Time …or Kefi will tell.
I am glad you agree with me.
But you need to read the Ennafaa article, he does not see the Near East as the origin for hg H. Ennafaa was trying to show that the Straits of Gibraltar was not a barrier to the spread of hg H into Europe. See:
As a consequence, it has been proposed that the North African gene pool has had Palaeolithic and Neolithic influences from the East, but that the impact of the historicalinvasions, such as the Arabic role, had more a cultural than a demic effect. The lack of exclusive haplotypic matches between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula found here is in accordance with that hypothesis. Third,the southward clinal diminution of haplogroup H frequencies found at mitochondrial level is well explained as a counteracting effect of the northward clinal diminution of the Sub-Saharan maternal gene flow [15,5,19].
Fourth,the genetic heterogeneity detected between the North African and the Iberian Peninsula populations has been attributed to both the effect of the physical barrier imposed by the Strait of Gibraltar and strong cultural differences.However, some gene flow has been detected between areas and its strength depends mainly on the type of marker used. The strongest barrier effect has been detected in analyses based on Y-chromosome polymorphisms [30]. The levels of gene flow detected in autosomal studies have been of more diverse range [4,56] and, in some cases, seem to depend on the population samples used as is the case with, for instance, the CD4/Alu microsatellite haplotypes [60,61]. In contrast, a high female permeability has been deduced from several mitochondrial studies that pointed to the existence of an important maternal Iberian input on North Africa [15,19]. Although there is no archaeological evidence to justify such a demic flow from Iberia to North Africa, based on the phylogeographic range, comparative gene diversity and ages of several mitochondrial haplogroups such as V, H1, H3, and U5b1b [25,37,26], the presence of these haplogroups in North Africa is thought to be the result of a southward expansion of Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers from the Franco- Cantabrian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.
In fact, coalescence ages for H1 and H3 subclades estimated in this study are in good agreement with those previously published and are congruent with these expansions.
As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological or genomic evidence and is based on pure conjecture.
Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:
* a higher number of different haplotypes
* more unique haplotypes
* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa
* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.
xyyman, Clyde's saying that H has less diversity in Africa than the Near East (or Europe) That proves it Lower diversity points to origin right?
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Phylogeny and genetic structure of Tunisians and their position within Mediterranean populations. Kefi R1, (Feb2014)
---- Author information 1Biomedical Genomics and Oncogenetics Laboratory (LR 11 IPT 05), Institut Pasteur de Tunis, Université El Manar de Tunis , Tunis , Tunisia and.
Abstract Abstract Tunisia is located at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa. This position might lead to numerous waves of migrations, contributing to the current genetic landscape of Tunisians. In this study, we analyzed 815 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from Tunisia in order to characterize the mitochondrial DNA genetic structure of this region, to construct the processes for its composition and to compare it to other Mediterranean populations. To that end, additional 4206 mtDNA sequences were compiled from previous studies performed in African (1237), Near Eastern (231) and European (2738) populations. Both phylogenetic and statistical analyses were performed. This study confirmed the mosaic genetic structure of the Tunisian population with the predominance of the Eurasian lineages, followed by the Sub-Saharan and North African lineages. Among Tunisians, the highest haplogroup and haplotype diversity were observed in particular in the Capital Tunis. No significant differentiation was observed between both geographical (Northern versus Southern Tunisia) and different ethnic groups in Tunisia. Our results highlight the presence of outliers and most frequent unique sequences in Tunisia (10.2%) COMPARED to 45 Mediterranean populations. . Phylogenetic analysis showed that the majority of Tunisian localities were closer to North Africans and Near Eastern populations than to Europeans. The exception was found for Berbers from Jerba which are clustered with SARDINIANS and VALENCIANS.
---- Jerba is an Island off the coast of Africa. Valencia/Spain and Sardinia/Italy. Get it got it. If Ia m a betting man….hg-H has an African origin.
BTW- I am speculating that "unique" equivalent to H* in Ennaafa data
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posted
I read the Ennaafa paper several times. Sometimes these authors are more confused than us when inferring the data. yes, I agree with what you bolded. She is stating that hg-H does NOT have an Arabian origin regardless what the table posted by Sage suggest. That is why resolution is so important. And frequency is NOT the end all. The Table shows slightly more diversity in Arabia over Africa. But it does NOT show a very important detail….the similarity in haplotype between Arabia and Africa.
Dr Winters, what you are saying and bolded is correct. Ennaafa is saying that the diversity of the North African haplotypes is NOT a sub-set of the Arabian haplotype!!!!! Significance? They are NOT a sub-set of each other meaning they original source population is neither and that source have not have been sampled….as yet..
Good catch!!
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BTW- I made the same observation when we discussed the aDNA for the Nuragic Sardinians.
There were several "unique" haplotypes of hg-H found between Nuragics and North Africans NOT observed in the rest of Europe suggesting an ancient connection between the two.
In this case H* is about the same in North Africa and Arabia. But they are NOT similar. So neither were the source population of each other. Nice work!!
She, Ennaafa is trying to prove the Straits was NOT a barrier to gene flow.
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Taking another look at the supplemental data.- You are right Dr Winters.
WOW! I am glad the subject was revived. Everytime we discuss these issues, every few years, new insight is gained.
Looking at the Ennaafa data corroborates Roostalu et al data I posted above. The Levant was NOT the origin and corridor of hg-H. There is a strong connection between Southern Arabia/Yemen and North Africa. The Levant is NOT in the mix. This is in agreement with Henn data on SNP. Ennaafa dataset shows an absence of H* and H1 in the Levant region. In addition Iran has virtually neither of these clades. WOW!. Henn SNP data also ruled out the Levant connection.
H* is found at the 3rd highest level in Iberia!! So what do we have? H* found in Africa and Yemen/Arabia is NOT a sub-set of each other, but H* in Iberia is a subset of North Africa. Significance?? Damn!! I am good. The only question is where in Africa is the true source population. My money is in the Nilo-Saharan/Great Lakes region. Anyone?
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posted
Everyone got that?! Question? Retort? Look at the Supplementals before commenting.
Looks like I don’t need Kefi(2014) after all! The answer was looking right at me and missed it all that time. I got this. ANYONE!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: at your rebuttal.
Anyway, how come there is a different genetic structure amongst Germans?
They are comprised of confederation of different African tribes
btw, it's not a rebuttal, it's confirmation of xyyman's theory
This will be remembered.
quote: Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.
--Brotherton P1, Haak W, Templeton J,
Nat Commun. 2013;4:1764. doi: 10.1038/ncomms2656.
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.
Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa? Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA Therefore a back migration
They were Preceded by the Romans. Hap H is also about 40% in Italians
Preceding both of them was the Phoenicians They came from what is now Lebanon and in Lebanon mtDNA frequencies for Haplogroup H are 33.8% At it's height Carthage is believed to have had half a million people and that was only one of their cities.
Levantines such as the Phoenicians and probably the Sea People were Levantines. They didn't have to pass through Egypt if they didn't want to they had ships !!!
In other words we have both Near Eastern Phoenicians and European H carriers who occupied North Africa
But modern day Egyptians carry Haplogroup H at 15.7% anyway
not by a long shot the zero as referenced on the Badro chart
Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations Danielle A. Badro,
Table 1. mtDNA Haplogroup frequencies of 1509 newly sequenced Levantine samples and 3665 samples collected from the literature.
^^^ this chart cannot be used to indicate average Haplogroup H frequencies in various countries
notice at right are all the references, for instance for Egypt
Saunier et al
that's from 2008 (2007)
full reference at the bottom of the article as follows
7. Saunier JL, Irwin JA, Strouss KM, Ragab H, Sturk KA, et al. (2009) Mitochondrial control region sequences from an Egyptian population sample. Forensic science international Genetics 3: e97–103. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2008.09.004
^^^ However this is showing various H groups in Egyptians (people save the above two part image, this chart, for reference on modern Egyptian population- first time posted on ES)
Similarly one could be mislead by this Badro chart:
^^^ Mali is 52.4% + Haplogroup H right? Look at the Badro map and then the Table. It says 52.4% >>>Wrong, H frequency is next to nothing in Mali. It is only detected in some Tuareg who even in Northern Mali are a minority and 90% of the population lives in Southern Mali It's misleading how Badro has charted these things
And likewise the Badro table that shows 0% H for Egypt cannot be the average for modern Egypt
Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations A. M. González1,*,
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was analyzed in Mauritania and Mali, and compared to other West African samples covering the considerable geographic, ethnic and linguistic diversity of this region. The Mauritanian mtDNA profile shows that 55% of their lineages have a west Eurasian provenance, with the U6 cluster (17%) being the best represented. Only 6% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to the L3A haplogroup a frequency similar to other Berber speaking groups but significantly different to the Arabic speaking North Africans. The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference. Only one HV west Eurasian lineage has been detected in Mali but 40% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to cluster L3A. The presence of L0a representatives demonstrates gene flow from eastern regions. Although both groups speak related dialects of the Mande branch, significant genetic differences exist between the Bambara and Malinke groups. The West African genetic variation is well structured by geography and language, but more detailed ethnolinguistic clustering suggest that geography is the main factor responsible for this differentiation.
A total of 84 different haplotypes were observed in 124 Mali subjects. Only the Bambara and Malinke had large enough sample sizes to be studied independently (Table 2). A mismatch search detected 36 haplotypes (43%) found only in Mali, of which 53% belong to the L2 cluster. In contrast to Mauritania, while only eight lineages (17%) are widely spread in Africa, fourteen (30%) are restricted to West Africa. Again, in contrast to Maure, only one Bambara Euroasiatic sequence (Table 2) was detected in Mal
The second principal component (PC2) that extracted 25% of the variance clearly separates Mauritania from the rest of the western countries, due to its high frequency of Euroasiatic lineages, leaving Mali closer to Senegal-Guinea-Sierra Leone than to Niger-Nigeria. These results demonstrate that the genetic variation is geographically structured. The Mauritania-Senegal and Mali border seems to be an important barrier to southwards gene flow of the North African Euroasiatic haplogroups to Sub-Saharan Africa. However, the large genetic differentiation between Mauritania and Mali, both sharing an extensive border in the Sahara area, needs explanation. On one hand this border largely occupies a desert area, so gene flow in this region is infrequent. On the other, the fact that the Mali samples were collected in Bamako (southern Mali) could have biased the data to the southern regions, decreasing the Euroasiatic haplogroups frequencies. The latter explanation is reinforced by the comparatively high presence of Euroasiatic lineages in the Niger-Nigeria sample, where the northern nomadic Tuareg and the pastoral Hausa are well represented (Watson et al. 1997). In fact, this Niger-Nigeria Euroasiatic component slightly likens this region to Mauritania.
________________________________________
Frequencies of H are higher in Europe than in North Africa Diversity of H is highest in the Near East followed by Europe It is lowest in North Africa
Haplogroup H frequency
Libya is 17.1 % (according to Badro 25.8%) only some Tuaregs in Libya a population of under 20,000 have 63% Hap H and I suspect it's the lighter skinned ones rather than the ones who look like non-berber Malians (people who have little if any hap H) One can imagine the white researchers avoiding the black Tuaregs for samples and instead sampling the high yella mulatto types Anyway Badro lists "Libyan Sahara" separately, the reference is Ottonti"s Tuareg article. Again Tuareg are 0.3% of Libya Not 3% but 0.3%
So the North African country with the highest frequency of H according to Badro is Tunisia 31.3 That's where the Vandals were
Mitochondrial haplogroup H sequence evolution (a) Phylogenetic network of 39 prehistoric mitochondrial genomes sorted into two temporal groupings: Early Neolithic (left) and Mid-to-Late Neolithic (right). Node colours represent archaeological cultures. (b) A Bayesian skyride plot of 200 representative present-day and 39 ancient hg H mt genomes (the thick red line denotes the posterior median, thinner flanking lines denote the 95% credibility interval; note the logarithmic scale of the y-axis). Prehistoric samples (18 radiocarbon and 21 mean archaeological dates) served as internal calibration points (black bars). For comparison, census size estimates for the European population are shown as orange dots. Population density estimates from the archaeological record for key periods in Central Europe are plotted as blue squares in chronological order: LBK, Iron Age, Roman period, Merovingian, and Pre-industrial modern times (y-axis on the right)28.
Population affinities of select Neolithic cultures (a) PCA biplot based on the frequencies of 15 hg H sub-haplogroups (component loadings) from 37 present-day Western Eurasian and three ancient populations (light blue: Western Europe; dark blue: Central and Eastern Europe; orange; Near East, Caucasus, and Anatolia; and pink: ancient samples). Populations are abbreviated as follows: GAL, Galicia; CNT, Cantabria; CAT, Catalonia; GAS, Galicia/Asturia; CAN, Cantabria2; POT, Potes; PAS, Pasiegos; VIZ, Vizcaya; GUI, Guipuzcoa; BMI, Basques; IPNE, Iberian Peninsula Northeast; TUR, Turkey; ARM, Armenia; GEO, Georgia; NWC, Northwest Caucasus; DAG, Dagestan; OSS, Ossetia; SYR, Syria; LBN, Lebanon; JOR, Jordan; ARB, Arabian Peninsula; ARE, Arabian Peninsula2; KBK, Karachay-Balkaria; MKD, Macedonia; VUR, Volga-Ural region; FIN, Finland; EST, Estonia; ESV, Eastern Slavs; SVK, Slovakia; FRA, France; BLK, Balkans; DEU, Germany; AUT, Austria, ROU, Romania; FRM, France Normandy; WIS, Western Isles; CZE, Czech Republic; LBK, Linear pottery culture; BBC, Bell Beaker culture; MNE, Middle Neolithic. (b) Procrustes analyses of geographic coordinates and PCA scores of the same dataset (similarity score t0 = 0.733, p ... 10−6, 100 000 permutations). (c) Ward clustering dendrogram of the three ancient groups and present-day populations (colour code as above and p values in % of approximately unbiased bootstrapping for the following three main clusters). (d) Results of the model-based test to identify the number of clusters by the model with the highest support (highest BIC; VEV= multivariate mixture model (ellipsoidal, equal shape)).
Schematic representation of experimental steps (a) Probe DNA was prepared by amplifying a complete mitochondrial genome in two overlapping fragments by long-range PCR, followed by DNA fragmentation and biotinylation to form mtDNA ‘baits’ for targeted hybridisation. (b) Ancient DNA was enzymatically blunt-ended and phosphorylated, ligated to custom library adapters, followed by polymerase ‘fill-in’ to create ‘immortalised’ double-stranded DNA libraries. (c) Hybridisation-based DNA-capture using biotinylated probe bound to Streptavidin magnetic beads; following stringency washes, captured library constructs enriched in mtDNA sequences are eluted from the beads/probe via a novel polymerase strand-displacement reaction followed by PCR library reamplification. These steps can be carried out iteratively to maximise mtDNA content in enriched libraries
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^You still don't get it, you still keep citing frequencies. When it's not solely about frequencies. Iteration is yo' thang'.
I am speaking to Clyde somewhat on Clyde's terms
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^You still don't get it, you still keep citing frequencies. When it's not solely about frequencies. Iteration is yo' thang'.
I am speaking to Clyde somewhat on Clyde's terms
But Clyde doesn't speak solely in terms of frequencies. He has made this clear.
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:
* a higher number of different haplotypes
* more unique haplotypes
* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa
* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.
Trollkillah, the above is the thread theme I don't know if you are capable of replying to it or you only reply to what I say
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.
Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa? Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA Therefore a back migration
They were Preceded by the Romans. Hap H is also about 40% in Italians
You are right there was probably a back migration. It was a back migration of Vandal and Roman populations from Africa carrying hg H, into western Eurasia. This was a back migration of populations--not genomes. .
The Table posted by Tukuler is all well and good. As Sage mentioned and I agree with, there are several factors that must be included to determine “origin”, frequency is one, but there are a few others, which include diversity AND matching haplotypes. Enaaffa Table shows diversity between North Africa and Southern Arabia to be about the same with a slight edge to Arabia on diversity. The Levant is NOT in the mix.
But the rubber hits the road in a “close up” analysis on the diversity of H* between Arabia and North Africa. To clarify H* represents “unique” haplotypes(or mutations) within the mtDNA Haplogroup H. That means H* it does not really fall into any of the sub-clades(branches) of hg-H. Therefore, it is unque or H*. What Enaaffa is stating as Dr Winters pointed out and I missed it the first time around, is that the unqiue haplotypes of H* in Arabia and North Africa are DIFFERENT. Which means Arabians did NOT back-migrate to North Africa. If that was the case you would see a sub-set of Arabian H* IN North Africa. (this is what the bolded section Dr Winters posted by Enaaffa means). And the reverse would be seen if the migration was from NA to Arabia. Neither is the case. This means that these two populations are related but NOT ancestral to each other. They both have the SAME ancestral population. Babujani et al observed the similar relationship when he ccompared Etruscans aDNA with meditereanean populations. Rejecting the earlier hypothesis that the Etrruscans were Anatolians. He concluded that the Anatolians and Etruscans had the same ancestral population further “south”. Adsmittedly, he did not use the word Africa but “south”
With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians, their H* is a subset of North Africans. Proving that North Africa was the source of Iberians H* and ultimately H-sub-clades.
I don’t know how I missed this for so long. And I thought Kefi 2014 would have the answer and this was kicking me in the face for sucha long time.
I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.
The Y DNA perspective:
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula Susan M. Adams12, Elena Bosch1213, DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.11.007
With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians, I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.
Iberians have higher frequenices of Haplogroup H than North Africans, no question
Do the math it's called averages
Libya has 6.4 million people Haplogroup H frequency in Libya is 17-29% Only Libyan Tuaregs who number under 20,000 have H up to 61.2%
Tunisia has the highest frequencies of H in North Africa 31.3%
Europe averages 40% +
Spain averages 45%
Wales 58.8% (Sykes 2007)
Why are you making me repeat myself, your claim was proven false by my post that preceded it
The Bardo table also shows, France, Greece and Slovakia each to have higher H frequencies than North Africa
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
@ Dr Winters, MtDNA H has a strong presence IN Iberia and Europe circa the Mid-Neolithic. Long before the North African invasion (circa 700CE).
Anyways, What is crystalizing is that R-M269 is NOT the genetic or migrational counter-part to mtDNA hg-H. R-M269 entered Europe circa late Bronze age.
When I joined this forum about 6-7years ago I made that observation to Rasol and the Hindu. The geographic pattern of R1b/R1a is peculiar. R1b-R-M269 is to Western Europe while R1a is to East Europe. The highest frequency of upstream clades of R YDNA is Near East and ….North Africa and central Africa. What does that infer? The desert hold a lot of secrets. . Tic! Toc! More data is needed but if I was a betting man…….
R-M269, your lineage Lioness, may not be an enigma much longer.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@Sage. This is a good example of strawman. We have an indepth discussion on haplotypic diversity and unique mutations and Lioness throws in a smoke bomb. He thinks he can confuse us. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Oops! From ESR
QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians, I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.
Iberians have higher frequenices of Haplogroup H than North Africans, no question
Do the math it's called averages
Libya has 6.4 million people Haplogroup H frequency in Libya is 17-29% Only Libyan Tuaregs who number under 20,000 have H up to 61.2%
Tunisia has the highest frequencies of H in North Africa 31.3%
Europe averages 40% +
Spain averages 45%
Wales 58.8% (Sykes 2007)
Why are you making me repeat myself, your claim was proven false by my post that preceded it
The Bardo table also shows, France, Greece and Slovakia each to have higher H frequencies than North Africa [/QB][/QUOTE]
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posted
To add more fuel to the flame. In the “Joining pillars of Hercules paper”, the Saharawi’s proved to be ancestral to Iberians. Remember ALL haplotypes of HV/V found in the Saharawis were found in Iberia and Italy….plus more. Proving that the Iberians were a subset of the Africans. I can go on and on and on and on,.
I got this!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians, I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage. This is a good example of strawman. We have an indepth discussion on haplotypic diversity and unique mutations and Lioness throws in a smoke bomb. She thinks she can confuse us. Lol!
In other words he were talking about frequency as quoted and I replied to it
So you want to pretend you didn't make a statement about frequency and call Tukular for help
folks, the bolded statement by xyyman is false
Also the new Kefi paper could prove even more embarrasing to you
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.
Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.
The supplementals have it all...,,
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Unable to overturn the data which he labeled as my belief not actual data and after non-genetic filabustering to bide time to uncover contrary data Clyde presented the ultimate in make believe "science"
Confronted with unmitigatable purely genetic evidence of H's NE ancestry (NE Xyyman not AP like you keep fudging) Clydes presents an interpretation the exact opposite of the discipline's 'rules'.
quote: Because Haplogroup H originated in Northwest Africa and the Sahara, there would be
* fewer different haplotypes * few unique haplotypes * less haplotype diversity * lower unique haplotype frequency
because, the African populations would be more homogeneous.
.
We're not doing private discussion. Every genetics knowledgeable person should post and I don't mean clueless cheerleader posts that contribute nothing to the understanding but merely express opinionated approvals.
That no one said a word about this is proof of ES' nadir. What new blood could be attracted to the Egyptology forum when its membership is so out of touch with genetics to let that go by without speaking out against pseudo-science?
Genetics was the main draw attracting me to ES AE&E. After reading Clyde's ideological perversion of science prospective members would hie away.
I hope those of you knowledgeable on genetics who abandoned this side of the board are pleased with yourselves and the ES brain drain you are all responsible for.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.
Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.
The supplementals have it all...,,
Over 85% of people who say "I got this" don't got this
* HT Number of different haplotypes, highest, Iberian Penninsula 161 wide margin
* %hHT haplotype diversity Near East 97 Arabian Penninsula 96 Iberia and North Africa 93 narrow margin
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The number of haplotypes and the unique haplotypes support expansion in Iberia not origin.
* %hHT haplotype diversity Near East 97 North Africa 96 Iberia and North Africa 93 narrow margin
Of course you meant Arabian Peninsula 96 not North Africa 96
But don't forget Ennafaa's list of various H subclades shows NE lacks only one, (H3), whilst IP lacks, or is less than 1, for 6 sub-Hgs H6 H6b H8 H11 H14a H20
Using both tables I concluded their data indicates Near East origins for macrohaplogroup H the subject of this thread.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
After the Near East where is the second location Europe or North Africa? I read Ennafaa a few times and it was less than firmly conclusive. She says on a genetic level evidence suggets a migration of H from Iberia to North Africa in prehistoric times. Scientists are uncertain about crossing the Gibralter at that time.Ennafaa found a correlation of Western NA populaltions, including Morroco showing a greater European affinty as compared to Tunisians with a greater NE affinity
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Clyde is just the reverse opposite of lyinass. Where lyinass is quick to classify any early clade in Africa 'Eurasian' because certain derived hgs are in Eurasia, clyde does the opposite and claim any downstream Eurasian clades in Africa are really African.
Two different sides of the same coin. BOTH are pushing opposite agendas. One to mix-up Africans, the other to 'purify' Africans. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but it's her data I use to draw my inferences.
@DJ Tenacity in promoting viable African studies and disciplines supporting it is what brought me here and keeps me here. This is my heritage culture and civilization and I will not stand aside no matter who lacks the will to struggle against whatever odds.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Tukuler, why do you even bother?
Clyde is just the reverse opposite of lyinass. Where lyinass is quick to classify any early clade in Africa 'Eurasian' because certain derived hgs are in Eurasia, clyde does the opposite and claim any downstream Eurasian clades in Africa are really African.
Two different sides of the same coin. BOTH are pushing opposite agendas. One to mix-up Africans, the other to 'purify' Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but it's her data I use to draw my inferences.
@DJ Tenacity in promoting viable African studies and disciplines supporting it is what brought me here and keeps me here. This is my heritage culture and civilization and I will not stand aside no matter who lacks the will to struggle against whatever odds.
This shows why you made a fool of yourself in this thread. If you would have paid attention to the author's words you may have understood Ennafaa's interpretation of the data, instead of reaching the false conclusions you presented in this thread.
There is nothing wrong in making your own interpretation of the literature but you should frame the interpretation of data using archaeogenetic methods--not your own.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You Afrika Uber Alles ideologues are a blip.
Ennafaa (2009) TS1 lists H* haplotypes throught out her defined Near East, except for Palestine. So that's why Xyyman neglected posting proofs from it.
It also shows H1 in Jordan and the Dead Sea.
Xyyman erred/lied. The supplement does not upset the main article's Table 1. This is true though TS1 only covers samples the Ennafaa (2009) team did themselves collect not including samples from the literature they also reported on in Table 1.
Had Xyyman known how to use the supplementals he'd have seen in TS2 Ennafaa used other samples than just her own.
Samples studied in her report are from * Ennafaa (2009) noted as 'this study' * Gonzalez (2008) * Roostalu (2007) * Pereira (2006, 2005) among others for her Near East data.
You'd've thought Xyyman would look for the source behind the source after I just schooled Clyde on that method's importance. The Lioness picked it up and ran with it re Badro Saunier but which Egyptians?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
How in the hell could I arrive at independent conclusions if I do nothing but parrot authors' conclusions instead of using their data for MY interpretation?
As if you agree with the authors you use and misrepresent every time you write anything. Hah!
In this thread using valid data no one has falsified I have demonstrated macrohaplogroup H could not have originated in continental Africa implicated per field standards employed to determine a haplogroup's place of birth, namely diversity and paragroup. Iberia stands as much or better chance as North Africa does to edge out the Near East.
* = highest value Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2
You on the other hand bring up things outside of genetics to make a genetic point. Nothing more foolish than that. Those things were known before the current state of molecular based population genetics yet they never told us of the existence of chromosomes or other DNA.
The way you use them is pure rhetoric that your wording is easily seen through thus not worth commenting as the Lioness shot them down with out breaking a sweat.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but it's her data I use to draw my inferences.
@DJ Tenacity in promoting viable African studies and disciplines supporting it is what brought me here and keeps me here. This is my heritage culture and civilization and I will not stand aside no matter who lacks the will to struggle against whatever odds.
This shows why you made a fool of yourself in this thread. If you would have paid attention to the author's words you may have understood Ennafaa's interpretation of the data, instead of reaching the false conclusions you presented in this thread.
There is nothing wrong in making your own interpretation of the literature but you should frame the interpretation of data using archaeogenetic methods--not your own.
.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
yeah! Yeah! Anyone who understands this stuff and analyze Ennaafa supplemental data will understand what she means. North Africans are NOT a subset of Arabians.
====== Ennafaa noted......
As a consequence, it has been proposed that the North African gene pool has had Palaeolithic and Neolithic influences from the East, but that the impact of the historicalinvasions, such as the Arabic role, had more a cultural than a demic effect. The ****LACK ****of exclusive haplotypic matches between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula found here is in accordance with that hypothesis.
----
The data shows NO matches between Arabia and North Africa. Get it Got it. Meaning? Tic!Toc!
Nice work Dr Winters
I got this!
I will give you some space. You will catch on Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Again w/t strawman?
Who here ever said NAs are a subset of APs?
Nobody but you, afaik.
Build a strawman knock him down.
But as for real positions you were dead to rights wrong about no H* & H1 in NE per Ennafaa after you made a big deal and challenge over it..
* = highest value Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2
You know what it means tic toc doc?
Ya see it but no wanna blieve it.
So you twiist and shouout and jabbbber
But all the peregrination in the world can't poof up in smoke the data evidence and who wins the origin criteria match best two out of three.
Iffen I gives ya space will ya catch on in time that NE is NOT AP so I ain't gotta tell ya again for the 5th time. Alzheimers???????????????
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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