quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^There are a few people here who don't know who the quotes are arranged. And you are one of them, Fourty2Tribes. Look at the post again, and look at the first name; Originally posted by "the lioness". That's the person being addressed. Your name appeared second.
And if you use logic, you can see what my post is about. So logically it conveys a story.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^It's called being objective, the hair type and ethnicity is unknown on that palette. They are not Egyptians, it is unknown who they are
For instance, are they African or Asian? How light is their skin? You can't tell be looking at the palette and I think SOY Keita would agree with me. That is called being scientific and not assuming things without basis -not "euronut" or "sick"
Shouldn't we assume that the depictions of people found in Egypt represent people living there. Remember this was a civil war.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^There are a few people here who don't know who the quotes are arranged. And you are one of them, Fourty2Tribes. Look at the post again, and look at the first name; Originally posted by "the lioness". That's the person being addressed. Your name appeared second.
And if you use logic, you can see what my post is about. So logically it conveys a story.
Lol sorry
It's ok.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^It's called being objective, the hair type and ethnicity is unknown on that palette. They are not Egyptians, it is unknown who they are
For instance, are they African or Asian? How light is their skin? You can't tell be looking at the palette and I think SOY Keita would agree with me. That is called being scientific and not assuming things without basis -not "euronut" or "sick"
Shouldn't we assume that the depictions of people found in Egypt represent people living there. Remember this was a civil war.
Lioness think pattern is different when it comes to Africa. Every other continent is culturally uplifted by lioness as, to be of indigenous people. But when it comes to Africa, lioness applies a different approach.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It could be afro hair but how do we know it's not non-afro curly hair?
Let's face reality.
quote: Abstract
Artificial mummification in ancient Egypt involved the application of chemicals to the body mostly for the purpose of preservation; others were applied for ritual aspects. Unguents were used also in everyday toilette.
Here we report a type of material which was applied specifically to the hair, a fatty material used as a ‘hair gel’. Personal appearance was important to the ancient Egyptians so much so that in cases where the hair was styled the embalming process was adapted to preserve the hair style.
This further ensured that the deceased’s individuality was retained in death, as it had been in life, and emphasises the importance of the hair in ancient Egyptian society.
Ancient Egyptian hair gel: new insight into ancient Egyptian mummification procedures through chemical analysis
Again, one cannot determine if this is afro hair, large curl non-afro hair, or afro hair treated with gel
I have seen one book speculate that they are Libyans due to penis sheaths and another book call them Nubian most researchers are unable to determine who they are
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness the racist bigot,: Battlefield Palette
Again, one cannot determine if this is afro hair, large curl non-afro hair, or afro hair treated with gel
I have seen one book speculate that they are Libyans due to penis sheaths and another book call them Nubian most researchers are unable to determine who they are
Repost, how was Afro-texture hair being portrayed during classical and ancient times? I already posted about the local inhabitants of that time, from the region. lol
You are a funny indiviual. Always looking for a way to derail the subject, that's your favorite game play. Now it's supposed ancient "Libyans or Nubians"? lol as if that will change a thing. However the question becomes, why then did you post those white dudes? lol SMH
Was it your convenient eyeballing?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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As beyoku and others have said, there's not much to be gained from starting Internet fights about the "race" of the AE. Most opponents are, frankly, ignoramuses who have already made up their minds and can't contribute much to your own knowledge of the topic. You might as well be arguing with creationists.
If what you're trying to do is influence media portrayals, I've decided this is a bit like arguing for more diversity in movies, video games, or whatever. You can make all the noise you want, but the odds that the powers that be in Hollywood, video game studios, comic book publishing, etc. are going to listen to you are slim even without accounting for the opposition. I say it's better to make your own contributions to the media than to pester Big Hollywood/Ubisoft/Marvel/whatever about it.
That's one of the reasons I've become an artist and writer and am studying video game design these days. I have more control that way.
posted
^^^But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
Maybe not, since they might figure African Egyptians would score diversity points and maybe more dough and less controversy. But that would require our perspective expanding past the perceived "noisy kooks" point in mainstream acceptance. Do you see that happening anytime soon?
Posts: 7082 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
I just finished a script. Trying to crowed fund the promotion soon.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
"But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy. Furthermore, Hollywood is owner and run by Ashkenazi Jews. They don't take kindly to the notion that 1. They have NOTHING to do with the Hebrews of the Bible (Moses and Hebrews coming out of Egypt and 2. All those people in the Bible and their religion comes from Blacks.
Gentile and Jew Albinos have a community of interest - especially in America with the always potentially volatile and aggressive Black population. They most certainly don't want to have anything to do with providing anything that may improve African American esteem and self perception.
-------------------- Keldal Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I'm just waiting for an explanation as to why these comedians try to disown half of the dynastic Egyptian population and still think they're onto something when they say AE fits their supposedly inclusive use of 'black'. Or when they claim that the dividing line for 'black' is and has always been dark skin pigmentation. See what I mean when I say that they're secretly sorting based on perceived race, not skin pigmentation? A lot of the personalities depicted in what some think were "immigrants" or "forgeries" in the upper picture were painted as having dark skin in other artworks that have their paint preserved (e.g. painting of Ka'aper). So, yes, they're authentic portrayals of ancient Egyptians; there is nothing "questionable" about them.
Regardless of whether explanations are going to be forthcoming, thanks for undoing 25 thread pages of Doug's fabrications and proving me right.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ This is why point at the Sphinx and change the subject to Europe I'm working on a promotion video for a script I wrote for the big screen. In the video I contrast this with this.
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
These pillars of white supremacism assert that Eurasians were responsible for every advanced civilization that arosed in Africa, so stop pretending that you have NEVER come across these racist lies that your people continue to cling to.
There are still Egyptologists to this very day that assert [against the overwhelming evidence] that the ancient Egyptians were not black Northeast Africans and that the modern mainstream of today's Egypt is a legitimate representative of what the ancient Egyptians would have looked like.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
this is 2016 not 1916
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
this is 2016 not 1916
lol, These theories are still being maintained, but of course not in your mind. LOL Look at the stuff you post. Even with in recent days, in this very same thread. With all these crazy loony excuses. SMH
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
The fight is eventually with conglomerates. If what is analyzed is truth, it means they willingly maintain classic theories on ancient Egypt, in a new format, 2.0, tell-a-vision.
We now know the problem, the majority of Hollywood is being controlled by dated, old white males 60+, who obviously have a certain dated worldview, from decades ago. They are stuck in their past (youth), 1950's and 60's, some even 40's.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm just waiting for an explanation as to why these comedians try to disown half of the dynastic Egyptian population and still think they're onto something when they say AE fits their supposedly inclusive use of 'black'. Or when they claim that the dividing line for 'black' is and has always been dark skin pigmentation. See what I mean when I say that they're secretly sorting based on perceived race, not skin pigmentation? A lot of the personalities depicted in what some think were "immigrants" or "forgeries" in the upper picture were painted as having dark skin in other artworks that have their paint preserved (e.g. painting of Ka'aper). So, yes, they're authentic portrayals of ancient Egyptians; there is nothing "questionable" about them.
Regardless of whether explanations are going to be forthcoming, thanks for undoing 25 thread pages of Doug's fabrications and proving me right.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ This is why point at the Sphinx and change the subject to Europe I'm working on a promotion video for a script I wrote for the big screen. In the video I contrast this with this.
Historically the problem was not light complexion, but the portrayal of dark complexion.
That is why they depict light complexion in mainstream media, but also on YouTube and forums, as being authentic Egyptian, modern and classic.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm just waiting for an explanation as to why these comedians try to disown half of the dynastic Egyptian population and still think they're onto something when they say AE fits their supposedly inclusive use of 'black'. Or when they claim that the dividing line for 'black' is and has always been dark skin pigmentation. See what I mean when I say that they're secretly sorting based on perceived race, not skin pigmentation? A lot of the personalities depicted in what some think were "immigrants" or "forgeries" in the upper picture were painted as having dark skin in other artworks that have their paint preserved (e.g. painting of Ka'aper). So, yes, they're authentic portrayals of ancient Egyptians; there is nothing "questionable" about them.
Regardless of whether explanations are going to be forthcoming, thanks for undoing 25 thread pages of Doug's fabrications and proving me right.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ This is why point at the Sphinx and change the subject to Europe I'm working on a promotion video for a script I wrote for the big screen. In the video I contrast this with this.
The vast majority of those statues have either lost their original paint or are unpainted and are thus inconclusive. The statue of the sitting scribe lost the original brown hue that it had and the few ghost white images must be symbolic representations of death.
The Syrian looking man on the first row on the upper left side does strike me as odd and really doesn't look like an ancient Egyptian. I personally believe that Nofret, Nefertiti and Nefeteri could have been of foreign extraction. Rahotep looks markedly different to his immediate ancestors like Huni and Sneferu and also looks different to Khufu.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
this is 2016 not 1916
Hmmm, so why does Egyptology still insist that the ancient Egyptians were not black Northeast Africans and that they looked just like the modern people of Egypt? Why do they so conveniently now pretend that the ancient Egyptians were "mixed" when there is no evidence for this!? The ancient Egypt was "mixed" agenda is a transparent ploy that basically revives the dynastic race theory -- one that would put Eurasians at the top and blacks at the bottom. This is completely unacceptable.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
this is 2016 not 1916
Hmmm, so why does Egyptology still insist that the ancient Egyptians were not black Northeast Africans and that they looked just like the modern people of Egypt?
Show us an example in the past 10 years saying that. You are making straw mans, mischaracterizing contemporary Egyptology
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why do they so conveniently now pretend that the ancient Egyptians were "mixed" when there is no evidence for this!?
you are contradicting what you just said in a post on this page:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: I personally believe that Nofret, Nefertiti and Nefeteri could have been of foreign extraction. Rahotep looks markedly different to his immediate ancestors like Huni and Sneferu and also looks different to Khufu.
What does that mean in relation to my post? I'm just making sure I'm not misinterpreting your post.
@Sudaniya
I'm sure there are grounds to assign that guy Syrian ancestry, but I don't think that can always be inferred from the facial features or (lack of a) paint job. Both Nofret and Rahotep fall in the range of Old Kingdom statue conventions. One such convention seems to consist of pale (or unpainted) women (as opposed to yellow) and the males orange (as opposed to brown). Also see the same Rahotep in this wall painting with a typically Egyptian facial profile and remnants of paint that falls well within the African American pigmentation range. IIRC there is a rare image of Nofret in a wall painting with the same level of skin pigmentation. Nefertiti also has wall paintings with brown skin. That's why I said that many in the upper collage are genuine Egyptians.
Both collages contain images of unpainted depictions of Africans. Yet, in one case they're pushed to the forefront and in the other case they're covered up or disowned. So contra Doug's fantasy delusions, there are numerous examples of people who betray through their actions that they can't accommodate all Africans in their use of 'black'.
Doug et al should just come out of the closet and admit that their use of 'black' is racialized and, when it comes down to it, doesn't differ from the Euronut position that these unpainted Egyptian faces don't fit in how 'black' is used in practice.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted by alTakruri, August 11, 2010:
quote: The very earliest masks were experimentally crafted as independent sculptural work, and have been dated to the Herakleopolitan period (late First Intermediate Period). These early masks were made of wood, fashioned in two pieces and held together with pegs, or cartonnage (layers of linen or papyrus stiffened with plaster. They were molded over a wooden model or core. The masks of both men and women had over-exaggerated eyes and often enigmatic half smiles. These objects were then framed by long, narrow, tripartite wigs held securely by a decorated headband. The "bib" of the mask extended to cover the chest, and were painted for both males and females with elaborate beading and floral motif necklaces or broad collars that served not only an aesthetic function but also an apotropaic requirement as set out in the funerary spells. Hollow and solid masks (sometimes of diminutive size) were also built by pouring clay or plaster into generic, often unisex molds. To this, ears and gender specific details were than added.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted by alTakruri, August 11, 2010:
quote:Cartonage mummy mask of High Egyptian Official Middle Kingdom 2000-1980 BCE
"The use of a mummy mask is one of the most characteristic features of ancient Egyptian burial customs. Such cartonnage masks covered the head and the upper part of the chest of a mummy. Generally, they consist of layers of linen and gypsum that could be molded to the shape of the deceased. Finally, each mask was painted in bright colors.
Because of their fragility, relatively few mummy masks of the Middle Kingdom have survived in as good a state of preservation as this one. The face is rendered in a formal, stylized way, giving it a somewhat stiff expression. Even so, some details are indicated: the bristles of the full beard, the mustache, and the eyebrows, all stippled in black over a blue ground. The man wears a voluminous wig with long, rounded ends, which are neatly rimmed with a decorative border. A broad collar composed of many rows of beads features falcon-headed terminals, which are held in position by strings emerging from under the wig on the mask's back. In addition, a simple necklace with a large pearl completes his adornment. But most striking is the richly ornamented diadem with a floral motif over the forehead. The model for this diadem was gold and silver, inlaid with semiprecious stones like carnelian, lapis lazuli, and turquoise.
Although the original burial spot of the Walters' newly acquired mummy mask is not known, its general style and details undoubtedly indicate that it came from the necropolis at Asyut. At this important site, the capital of the 13th district of Upper Egypt, a French mission as well as the Egyptian nobleman Sayed Khashaba Pascha conducted intensive archaeological excavations during the early 20th century. Many rock-cut tombs belonging to the courtiers of the Asyut nomarchs (the rulers of the nome) were found untouched and still contained their original grave goods. This mask was probably discovered d uring the poorly documented Khashaba excavation, which left no records about related objects found in the tomb, including the coffin of the deceased with its inscriptions. Without records of his titles and name, the identity of the owner of this mask must remain a mystery." - Walters Art Museum
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:Show us an example in the past 10 years saying that. You are making straw mans, mischaracterizing contemporary Egyptology
[/QB][/QUOTE]
In From Slave to Pharaoh, noted Egyptologist Donald B. Redford examines over two millennia of complex social and cultural interactions between Egypt and the Nubian and Sudanese civilizations that lay to the south of Egypt. These interactions resulted in the expulsion of the black Kushite pharaohs of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty in 671 B.C. by an invading Assyrian army.
Redford traces the development of Egyptian perceptions of race as their dominance over the darker-skinned peoples of Nubia and the Sudan grew, exploring the cultural construction of spatial and spiritual boundaries between Egypt and other African peoples. Redford focuses on the role of racial identity in the formulation of imperial power in Egypt and the legitimization of its sphere of influence, and he highlights the dichotomy between the Egyptians' treatment of the black Africans it deemed enemies and of those living within Egyptian society. He also describes the range of responses—from resistance to assimilation—of subjugated Nubians and Sudanese to their loss of self-determination. Indeed, by the time of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty, the culture of the Kushite kings who conquered Egypt in the late eighth century B.C. was thoroughly Egyptian itself.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted by alTakruri, August 11, 2010
quote:Wooden coffin with the mummy of Ankhef
From Asyut, Egypt 12th Dynasty, around 1900 BC
Ankhef, an official at Asyut, was a middle-aged man who was at least 45 when he died. He suffered from osteoarthritis in his spine and left hip, but seems to have been otherwise generally healthy. The headrest which was placed close to his head was probably one of his personal possessions. His coffin is decorated with funerary texts to help him to enter the Afterlife.
Once a mummified body had been bandaged, it was wrapped in a shroud, or funerary cloth. A mask covering the head and shoulders was the last element to be added. This was made of cartonnage, moulded linen stiffened with plaster. The mask represented the face of the deceased, but was not really a portrait. The only real examples of portraits on mummies in ancient Egypt are the Fayum mummy portraits of the Roman Period, such as that of Artemidorus, which is in The British Museum.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Originally posted by alTakruri, August 11, 2010:
quote: The very earliest masks were experimentally crafted as independent sculptural work, and have been dated to the Herakleopolitan period (late First Intermediate Period). These early masks were made of wood, fashioned in two pieces and held together with pegs, or cartonnage (layers of linen or papyrus stiffened with plaster. They were molded over a wooden model or core. The masks of both men and women had over-exaggerated eyes and often enigmatic half smiles. These objects were then framed by long, narrow, tripartite wigs held securely by a decorated headband. The "bib" of the mask extended to cover the chest, and were painted for both males and females with elaborate beading and floral motif necklaces or broad collars that served not only an aesthetic function but also an apotropaic requirement as set out in the funerary spells. Hollow and solid masks (sometimes of diminutive size) were also built by pouring clay or plaster into generic, often unisex molds. To this, ears and gender specific details were than added.
Tukuler do you have any other information about the orovenance of this mask? I've seen Eurocentrists post it several times in favor of Nordic Egypt and would like to know just where it came from if possible
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Me. Mostly Greeks some Romans.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't know anything about the ownership, provenance, or authenticity of that mask in particular.
There are other pasty colored cartonnages. A striking one is female, the hair is massive.
To see a full range of these from brown to cream GOOGLE
cartonnage mummy mask
switch to image search.
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Tukuler do you have any other information about the orovenance of this mask? I've seen Eurocentrists post it several times in favor of Nordic Egypt and would like to know just where it came from if possible
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Originally posted by the lioness,:Show us an example in the past 10 years saying that. You are making straw mans, mischaracterizing contemporary Egyptology
In From Slave to Pharaoh, noted Egyptologist Donald B. Redford examines over two millennia of complex social and cultural interactions between Egypt and the Nubian and Sudanese civilizations that lay to the south of Egypt. These interactions resulted in the expulsion of the black Kushite pharaohs of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty in 671 B.C. by an invading Assyrian army.
Redford traces the development of Egyptian perceptions of race as their dominance over the darker-skinned peoples of Nubia and the Sudan grew, exploring the cultural construction of spatial and spiritual boundaries between Egypt and other African peoples. Redford focuses on the role of racial identity in the formulation of imperial power in Egypt and the legitimization of its sphere of influence, and he highlights the dichotomy between the Egyptians' treatment of the black Africans it deemed enemies and of those living within Egyptian society. He also describes the range of responses—from resistance to assimilation—of subjugated Nubians and Sudanese to their loss of self-determination. Indeed, by the time of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty, the culture of the Kushite kings who conquered Egypt in the late eighth century B.C. was thoroughly Egyptian itself.
Redford is a racist. He struggles to find examples of anything we know of slavery today but still juxtaposes the supposition. He does the same with the art. Ignore primary sources and call it slavery. Ignore the fact that all of the Egyptian Pharaohs look like black people and run game about black people becoming Pharaohs.
I also include this pic in the video
Basically my point is Hollywood's double standard. Cherry picked, edited and forged Egyptian art is sited for Egypt while it represents a smaller minority of Egyptian art than the representations of Greeks but I don't remember any black or mullato Greeks in any ancient Greek or Macedonian movies while damn near all the blacks in movies set in Rome are slaves.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Originally posted by alTakruri, August 11, 2010:
quote: The very earliest masks were experimentally crafted as independent sculptural work, and have been dated to the Herakleopolitan period (late First Intermediate Period). These early masks were made of wood, fashioned in two pieces and held together with pegs, or cartonnage (layers of linen or papyrus stiffened with plaster. They were molded over a wooden model or core. The masks of both men and women had over-exaggerated eyes and often enigmatic half smiles. These objects were then framed by long, narrow, tripartite wigs held securely by a decorated headband. The "bib" of the mask extended to cover the chest, and were painted for both males and females with elaborate beading and floral motif necklaces or broad collars that served not only an aesthetic function but also an apotropaic requirement as set out in the funerary spells. Hollow and solid masks (sometimes of diminutive size) were also built by pouring clay or plaster into generic, often unisex molds. To this, ears and gender specific details were than added.
Tukuler do you have any other information about the orovenance of this mask? I've seen Eurocentrists post it several times in favor of Nordic Egypt and would like to know just where it came from if possible
Most of the cartonnage mask are from the Greko-Roman period. Many are dated in the AD.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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What does that mean in relation to my post? I'm just making sure I'm not misinterpreting your post.
@Sudaniya
I'm sure there are grounds to assign that guy Syrian ancestry, but I don't think that can always be inferred from the facial features or (lack of a) paint job. Both Nofret and Rahotep fall in the range of Old Kingdom statue conventions. One such convention seems to consist of pale (or unpainted) women (as opposed to yellow) and the males orange (as opposed to brown). Also see the same Rahotep in this wall painting with a typically Egyptian facial profile and remnants of paint that falls well within the African American pigmentation range. IIRC there is a rare image of Nofret in a wall painting with the same level of skin pigmentation. Nefertiti also has wall paintings with brown skin. That's why I said that many in the upper collage are genuine Egyptians.
Both collages contain images of unpainted depictions of Africans. Yet, in one case they're pushed to the forefront and in the other case they're covered up or disowned. So contra Doug's fantasy delusions, there are numerous examples of people who betray through their actions that they can't accommodate all Africans in their use of 'black'.
Doug et al should just come out of the closet and admit that their use of 'black' is racialized and, when it comes down to it, doesn't differ from the Euronut position that these unpainted Egyptian faces don't fit in how 'black' is used in practice.
Swenet, it's in relation to the photo-collage, with lighter depictions (and unpainted) of ancient Egyptians. The media portrays these as the authentic and the dark complected are being ignored. This reflects in movies, magazines etc...
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
We should have a thread about the theory of how many white foreigners and/or white neighborhoods?
It's rare to see anyone painted lighter than this fellow.
Evidence of late has suggested that while white skin predates humanity a white race is younger. Damn near younger and further away... however I always bet on humanity. Yes I think Africans came to the Americans many times over before nations and from different nations right before and long before Columbus. By the same human ingenuity I think primitive white people from the crap lands of Asia traveled to the Nile and were greeted with respect for having made such a journey.
I'm not quite sure the older cartonage represent white people because of some of the reconstruction on the faces. However from what I understand Nefertiti's family was from Asia so the journey is possible. It's worth mentioning that Egyptians were numerous in Asia, she seemed to be the mixed chick of the Amarna mummies and most of her depictions were indistinguishable from other Egyptians.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: We should have a thread about the theory of how many white foreigners and/or white neighborhoods?
It's rare to see anyone painted lighter than this fellow.
Evidence of late has suggested that while white skin predates humanity a white race is younger. Damn near younger and further away... however I always bet on humanity. Yes I think Africans came to the Americans many times over before nations and from different nations right before and long before Columbus. By the same human ingenuity I think primitive white people from the crap lands of Asia traveled to the Nile and were greeted with respect for having made such a journey.
I'm not quite sure the older cartonage represent white people because of some of the reconstruction on the faces. However from what I understand Nefertiti's family was from Asia so the journey is possible. It's worth mentioning that Egyptians were numerous in Asia, she seemed to be the mixed chick of the Amarna mummies and most of her depictions were indistinguishable from other Egyptians.
One what do you base these claims?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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What does that mean in relation to my post? I'm just making sure I'm not misinterpreting your post.
@Sudaniya
I'm sure there are grounds to assign that guy Syrian ancestry, but I don't think that can always be inferred from the facial features or (lack of a) paint job. Both Nofret and Rahotep fall in the range of Old Kingdom statue conventions. One such convention seems to consist of pale (or unpainted) women (as opposed to yellow) and the males orange (as opposed to brown). Also see the same Rahotep in this wall painting with a typically Egyptian facial profile and remnants of paint that falls well within the African American pigmentation range. IIRC there is a rare image of Nofret in a wall painting with the same level of skin pigmentation. Nefertiti also has wall paintings with brown skin. That's why I said that many in the upper collage are genuine Egyptians.
Both collages contain images of unpainted depictions of Africans. Yet, in one case they're pushed to the forefront and in the other case they're covered up or disowned. So contra Doug's fantasy delusions, there are numerous examples of people who betray through their actions that they can't accommodate all Africans in their use of 'black'.
Doug et al should just come out of the closet and admit that their use of 'black' is racialized and, when it comes down to it, doesn't differ from the Euronut position that these unpainted Egyptian faces don't fit in how 'black' is used in practice.
Thanks, Swenet... that certainly puts everything into perspective. I'm going to have to assess things a little more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "But what if the true origins of the Ancient Egyptians become more mainstream to the media? Are big Hollywood gonna ignore facts?
YES. when it comes to AE, this is exactly what they do and will do until it becomes economically unsustainable.
You have to understand that just about everything relies upon the idea of a non-Black Ancient Egypt. The notion is a main pillar of White Supremacy.
Give one example of a white supremacist manifesto or credo that even mentions ancient Egypt
You are building a straw man
You're kidding, right? Does the Dynastic race theory not qualify? What about the Hamitic hypothesis? Did these racist theories not assert that indigenous black Africans were inferior and thus incapable of building advanced civilization, including but not limited to ancient Egypt!?
this is 2016 not 1916
Hmmm, so why does Egyptology still insist that the ancient Egyptians were not black Northeast Africans and that they looked just like the modern people of Egypt?
Show us an example in the past 10 years saying that. You are making straw mans, mischaracterizing contemporary Egyptology
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why do they so conveniently now pretend that the ancient Egyptians were "mixed" when there is no evidence for this!?
you are contradicting what you just said in a post on this page:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: I personally believe that Nofret, Nefertiti and Nefeteri could have been of foreign extraction. Rahotep looks markedly different to his immediate ancestors like Huni and Sneferu and also looks different to Khufu.
So you think that because I argued that some queens could quite possibly have been of foreign extraction that I was arguing that the general ancient Egyptian population was "mixed"?
That makes no sense. A small handful of foreign women doesn't make ancient Egypt "mixed". I know that your people desperately wish that AE was "mixed" so that Africans can't lay exclusive claim to their own civilization while Europeans and everybody else can have their own civilizations without people trying to exaggerate foreign presence and influence.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I just want to be sure about something.
Does anyone participating in this thread posit that Egypt was 100% black at any period after the proto-dynastic?
My question is separate from the fact of Egypt's African cultural origins of SudanoSahara antecedents or their adaptation of 'SW Asian' crops or animals.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
@Sudaniya. In regards to Nofret and Rahotep. You're probably aware of a third option, i.e. allegations of forgery. If not you can read more about it here:
^And I'm posting this for the sake of nuance. Personally, I think strong allegations require extraordinary evidence. But everyone should make up their own mind.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: The Ra-Hotep and Nofret statues are seated in strange chairs with backboards and Mdw Ntr writing near their head. These statues are among the greatest forgeries in the history of ancient African archaeology....
The Ra-Hotep statue violates a long list of clearly defined rules
He calls it a great forgery yet his analysis is that it violates a long list of clearly defined rules. If that is accurate it would make it a terrible forgery
He says these "rules" are
quote:
Ra-Hotep is a royal son and high ranking official, but he does not wear a wig;
he has a gray moustache;
he never had an emblem in his right hand across his chest.
Ra-Hotep's entire kilt belt is shown on his lap, rather than the universal ancient Egyptian practice of showing one belt-end protruding from the waist line.
Also, Ra-Hotep never had an emblem in his left hand.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I just want to be sure about something.
Does anyone participating in this thread posit that Egypt was 100% black at any period after the proto-dynastic?
My question is separate from the fact of Egypt's African cultural origins of SudanoSahara antecedents or their adaptation of 'SW Asian' crops or animals.
( Grabs popcorn ).
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Interestingly, Manu Ampim repeatedly uses 'black' in a way so-called 'vets' INSISTED FOR 25 THREAD PAGES is not how the term is used in the real world. A cursory look at works of other Afrocentric writers reveals the same thing.
Lol. How can you be so washed up and in denial that you're willing to lie to yourself for 25 thread pages that 'black' is only used in reference to skin color?
It's still unclear to me just who Doug is talking about when he keeps saying "we", "us" etc. No authority agrees with you. Speak for yourself. Stop trying to puff up your credibility by talking about "us". No one who hasn't had the chance to think about the pitfalls associated with the term uses 'black' exclusively as a reference to skin pigmentation. Hiding behind a dictionary entry doesn't make that fact go away.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Anyways lets get REALLY back om topic where I wanted this thread to go...
Do you guys agree with my original argument in the OP that we should exclude using "black" in bio-anthropological discussions about the Ancient Egyptians, because racial terms in general are unscientific, while it would be okay to use black while discussing the Ancient Egyptians in a historical sense? Since history is not scientific...
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I just want to be sure about something.
Does anyone participating in this thread posit that Egypt was 100% black at any period after the proto-dynastic?
My question is separate from the fact of Egypt's African cultural origins of SudanoSahara antecedents or their adaptation of 'SW Asian' crops or animals.
I wouldn't say 100%, but maybe 75%. Something like the USA, although very diverse with a lot of foreigners you still had a population that was the majority and dominate people(White Americans).
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Do you guys agree with my original argument in the OP that we should exclude using "black" in bio-anthropological discussions about the Ancient Egyptians, because racial terms in general are unscientific, while it would be okay to use black while discussing the Ancient Egyptians in a historical sense? Since history is not scientific...
Are you asking this for others (lurkers) to pitch in or are you asking the participants of this thread? If the latter, most folks' take on that question has been answered several times already. Your line of questioning doesn't reflect developments in the points of contention in the course of this thread.
For instance, Doug et al have said a 10.000 times already that a racial use of black doesn't exist and that people have always used the term to describe brown to jetblack skin. Your question ignores that there are apparently people out there who think your question is a red herring and that, since eumelanin is a biological fact, this whole discussion is about nothing.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Do you guys agree with my original argument in the OP that we should exclude using "black" in bio-anthropological discussions about the Ancient Egyptians, because racial terms in general are unscientific, while it would be okay to use black while discussing the Ancient Egyptians in a historical sense? Since history is not scientific...
Are you asking this for others to pitch in or are you asking the participants of this thread? If the latter, most folks' take on that question has been answered several times already. Your line of questioning doesn't reflect developments in the points of contention in the course of this thread.
For instance, Doug et al have said a 10.000 times already that a racial use of black doesn't exist and that people have always used the term to describe brown to jetblack skin. Your question ignores that there are apparently people out there who think your question is a red herring.
For the participant and I don't think people were really answering it imo.
The question wasn't really about the term "black", but that we should SEPARATE racial terms from scientific discussions, while they can be allowed in historic discussions since history is just study of the past and many people back then did use racial terms, for example in a historic discussion one can use a quote by a Greek writer describing the Ethiopians as "black" to prove the Ancient Ethiopians were black. Meanwhile in a scientific discussion using genetics saying the Ethiopians were "black" would not be a good idea. Am I making sense?
This thread never really was about what type of "term" of black are we using. But instead scientific discussions vs historic discussions.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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