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» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » Bantu migration from Sudan? (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Bantu migration from Sudan?
Elite Diasporan
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Yeah, make a all new thread for this.
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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Also Keep in mind Basal Eurasian is found THROUGHOUT Africa. Even the older Pygmies carry a significant proportion of “European” ancestry!!! That is why focusing on Tanzanian_LUxMandra carrying 55% European ancestry is dishonest by liberal white people like Capra and others. Deflection!!?? The big issue is the high percentage of “European” ancestry in MButi and Malawi_hora-8100BP.!!! Remember the same MButi carry DERIVED SLC45A2. Ha! Ha! HA!

lol hi xyyman

Let me guess, Tanzania_Luxmanda has 55% European ancestry at K=3 in the Skoglund paper? Is that also where you are getting European ancestry in Pygmies?

Needless to say low K ADMIXTURE models cannot be taken as reality, but that won't stop you.

(Much better model has Luxmanda as ~38% Near East Neolithic and ~62% Mota. Interestingly nMonte models seem to favour Natufian while qpAdm favours PPNB.)

As far as Bantu expansion goes notice how Malawi goes from San-Hadza people in the past to ~100% Mende component in the present? It's almost like some people from West Africa migrated to Malawi, lol.

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Elite Diasporan
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Uh... I said take this somewhere else.
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capra
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Sorry, I was still writing the post when you said that.

Anyway, Skoglund et al gives direct ancient DNA evidence of Bantu expansion into South and East Africa. No ancient DNA from the possible source regions though.

OK, so I hear a lot about Bantu oral traditions of originating in Egypt or wherever, but I never see proper references for them (I mean with documentation of actual sources and content of the traditions). Can anyone point me to some?

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xyyman
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come on Capra ...where???!!! in the paper?

"Anyway, Skoglund et al gives ***direct*** ancient DNA evidence of Bantu expansion into South and ***East Africa***. No ancient DNA from the possible source regions though."


stop bsing! Man you white Liberals! Just bad as the nutty Afro-Centrics

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Elite Diasporan
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^NO worries. But isn't there the Skoglund thread? Been looking for it. I think either you or Xyyman created it.

As for your third paragraph there is of course Ferg Somo.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/Bantu%20in%20Ancient%20Egypt.htm

^^I know thats not what you're looking for. HOWEVER, in one of the books I recently read it said one of the "Great Zimbabwes" stored Egyptian Papyri according to Lt.-Col. E. L. de Cordes who saw it first hand. Its said that when he informed the Boers, they burned it for fire. Yet the book states there were still MORE.


The original source appears to be Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man. I been looking for it. However, I'll quote the passage from the book I read.

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capra
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Thanks ED. I'll have a look for the books Ferg Somo cites.

http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Churchward/1913_churchward_the_signs_and_symbols_of_primordial_man.pdf
this one? looks fascinating but, uh, difficult to assess.

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Fourty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:

OK, so I hear a lot about Bantu oral traditions of originating in Egypt or wherever, but I never see proper references for them (I mean with documentation of actual sources and content of the traditions). Can anyone point me to some? [/QB]

I was curious about what percent of African tribes trace their origins to the Nile Valley. From what I remember it was like 30% of the top (population wise) tribes in each of the modern nations of west Africa which is consistent with the rest of Africa.

The evidence is meh to aight. Its more plausible than the Bantu migration especially when you have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Bantu

An example of said evidence.
http://www.stopblablacam.com/culture-and-society/0806-730-it-is-said-that-the-bamilekes-are-descended-from-ancient-egypt

It cites Moustapha Gadalla's exiled Egyptians and Dieudonné Toukam's History and Anthropology of the Bamileke People

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capra
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Thanks Fourty2Tribes. I found an exercept of Toukam's work. He cites Diop, Nicolas Faraclas, and Moustapha Gadalla. He seems to think that some of the majority black population of Egypt, the Baladis, migrated away from Alexandria to Nubia to escape Christian persecution in 391 AD; they left Nubia around 800 AD, but have some Nuer words in their lexicon to show for it. Later they preceded eastward to Cameroon due to warfare and other problems. Unfortunately I cannot find the whole book, whether he provides any oral traditions or what they actually say.
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Sorry, I was still writing the post when you said that.

Anyway, Skoglund et al gives direct ancient DNA evidence of Bantu expansion into South and East Africa. No ancient DNA from the possible source regions though.

OK, so I hear a lot about Bantu oral traditions of originating in Egypt or wherever, but I never see proper references for them (I mean with documentation of actual sources and content of the traditions). Can anyone point me to some?

"all the negro tribes of Africa assert that their ancestors came from the east" (M. Delafosse: Les Noirs de L'Afrique, p. 6, Paris.)

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Questions expose liars

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Thanks ED. I'll have a look for the books Ferg Somo cites.

http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Churchward/1913_churchward_the_signs_and_symbols_of_primordial_man.pdf
this one? looks fascinating but, uh, difficult to assess.

YES! That's it! Thanks.

The reason why I am taking it serious because it is a first hand account. And not "hearsay."

But what happened to those "Egyptian texts?" Why didn't no one ask about them? If true then why isn't this more known?

However, I will say that people have said that Great Zimbabwe is barely even 1% excavated!

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:
Originally posted by capra:

OK, so I hear a lot about Bantu oral traditions of originating in Egypt or wherever, but I never see proper references for them (I mean with documentation of actual sources and content of the traditions). Can anyone point me to some?

I was curious about what percent of African tribes trace their origins to the Nile Valley. From what I remember it was like 30% of the top (population wise) tribes in each of the modern nations of west Africa which is consistent with the rest of Africa.

The evidence is meh to aight. Its more plausible than the Bantu migration especially when you have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Bantu

An example of said evidence.
http://www.stopblablacam.com/culture-and-society/0806-730-it-is-said-that-the-bamilekes-are-descended-from-ancient-egypt

It cites Moustapha Gadalla's exiled Egyptians and Dieudonné Toukam's History and Anthropology of the Bamileke People [/QB]

Now this is what I like. I heard about the Bamileke people claiming to come from the Nile valley. And yea Semi-Bantu does sound like an interesting theory.
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the questioner
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yoruba: the egyptian connection
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2139

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Questions expose liars

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
yoruba: the egyptian connection
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2139

NO raceandhistory links in this thread please.
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Thereal
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Why? If it has some interesting evidence on things than what the issue?
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Elite Diasporan
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Again no thanks.
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xyyman
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To the newbies. That is why it is important to read yourself and call out lies when they are told. Even by the white liberals . Capra knows better. There is no genetic evidence provided by Skoglund on the Bantu migration!!!!!!! Skoglund made inferences based on what he read/archeology NOT genetics. They all do that because it is an agreed upon lie by Eurocentric researchers. The ONLY genetic migratory evidence shows Ancient East Africans migrating West, North East and South. No genetic evidence was provided showing a West to East Migration. I have NEVER SEEN ANY GENETIC EVIDENCE OF THE BANTU EXPANSION FROM WEST AFRICA. NONE!!!!!

In my thread on ESR I do a deep dive in all these papers. Skoglund is no different. There was never a migration from West Africa to East Africa by Bantus. It was the reverse. Iwo Eleru is NOT a Bantu, he/he is not related to modern Bantu. Thanks Andromeda. Iwo Eleru is West Africans yes, but not modern West African. So be careful of the label "West African". Understand the labelling game.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
come on Capra ...where???!!! in the paper?

"Anyway, Skoglund et al gives ***direct*** ancient DNA evidence of Bantu expansion into South and ***East Africa***. No ancient DNA from the possible source regions though."


stop bsing! Man you white Liberals! Just bad as the nutty Afro-Centrics



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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Modern West Africans are related to Paleolithic West Africans as much as Modern Europeans are related to Paleolithic Europeans. NEITHER are related to their Paleolithic occupants beyond slight admixture. E-M2 will not be found in West Africa prior to 4000BC.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elmaestro
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http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009790

Did you read that paper?

There's a few issues you have to deal with... one being Malawi being the epicenter and surrogate population for north east and south african expansion of bantu ancestry. We have pre-bantu malawians in skoglund (w/ no w.Afr signatures), and we have quite the bit of evidence showing the West African labeled ancestry in malawi predates east African bantu ancestry.

You have to revise your theory, If we are to accept that west Africa was inhabited before modern west Africans arrived. and that Modern west Africans/Bantus etc. are a product of admixture with W.African HGs and whosoever occupied W.Africa prior, then signatures from the latter two IS indication of a west -> east admixture event.

We do have a lot of evidence of an east west connection through NiloSaharan signatures, For example the Zaghawa who don't have actual bantu or west African ancestry, often displays a w.African component, and when we shave down intrapopulational influences in West africans, we clearly see a Nilosharan backbone.
 -

So while it may be that contemporary west Africans aren't just descendants of paleolithic West Africans(pWA), it is the Admixture with said group that gives away the West African source of ancestry for Bantu speakers... Think about how "Differentiated" West African Autosomal signatures appear. Now looking back at skoglund, we see what even 1-4% supposed Archaic ancestry can do to a population autosomally.

There's no point in arguing against central west African dispersal anymore.

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xyyman
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I will read it now and get back to you. Provide my input on the paper.

But on Skoglund....None of that has been shown in his paper. "Did you read that paper?

"There's a few issues you have to deal with... one being Malawi being the epicenter and surrogate population for north east and south african expansion of bantu ancestry. We have pre-bantu malawians in skoglund (w/ no w.Afr signatures), and we have quite the bit of evidence showing the West African labeled ancestry in malawi predates east African bantu ancestry. "


ElMaestro said
"You have to revise your theory, If we are to accept that west Africa was inhabited before modern west Africans arrived. and that Modern west Africans/Bantus etc. are a product of admixture with W.African HGs and whosoever occupied W.Africa prior, then signatures from the latter two IS indication of a west -> east admixture event. "

Xyyman comment - correction "You have to revise your theory, If we are to accept that west Africa was inhabited before modern west Africans arrived. and that Modern west Africans/Bantus etc. are a product of admixture with W.African Neolithic/Iron Age and whosoever occupied W.Africa prior, then signatures from the modern West Africa IS indication of an EAST to West admixture event


We do have a lot of evidence of an east west connection through NiloSaharan signatures, Agreed!!!! For example the Zaghawa who don't have actual bantu or west African ancestry, often displays a w.African component, and when we shave down intrapopulational influences in West africans, we clearly see a Nilosharan backbone.
-


Huh!? Are you related to Swenet. He has a knack for talking in circles. What did you just say here?

"So while it may be that contemporary west Africans aren't just descendants of paleolithic West Africans(pWA), it is the Admixture with said group that gives away the West African source of ancestry for Bantu speakers... Think about how "Differentiated" West African Autosomal signatures appear. Now looking back at skoglund, we see what even 1-4% supposed Archaic ancestry can do to a population autosomally.

There's no point in arguing against central west African dispersal anymore."

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elmaestro
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The malawi specimen in skoglund have no west African or bantu labeled admixture...

So between 5kya and now how did this bantu admixture get there? and from where?

Did you read the paper?

I'm lobbing up passes for you, Look at schlebusch's and skoglunds skeleton graphs and look at YRI's position to mota (or east Africans in general.)

Keep in mind how YRI clusters in admixture, and pca's.

Look at the DStats in skoglund 2017 OR Click the link and read my observation.

Just incase you can't put it together on your own...
Bantu admixture is partially defined by Archaic west African ancestry

You gotta revise your whole gameplan from the ground up brotha.

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xyyman
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uuugggh! I hate dumbing things down but I find BSers irating.
But it is on the front page of the paper. He can't make it simpler than that. Siighgggh!!

 -

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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What can't you understand about that simple chart? The ancient west African(preNeolithic) has dissipated they no longer exist. That is reflected in the differential structure between Mende and YRI. This is not rocket science guys. Substructure exist through out Africa. It is "color coded' lol! for those who find it difficult to read and understand.

There is no genetic proof of migration from WEST Africa to EAST Africa. none! The Bantu expansion never occured. Iwo Eleru is NOT a Modern West African.

Green=Iwo eleru whose genes have largely been lost.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
yoruba: the egyptian connection
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2139

NO raceandhistory links in this thread please.
The point of the link is to provide oral traditional evidence. The African tribe such as the Yoruba claim to come from the east.

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Questions expose liars

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capra
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Iwo Eleru-type people being in the forest zone of West Africa in the Palaeolithic does not prevent other people being in West Africa in the Palaeolithic. Even if the primary ancestors of modern West Africans only arrived in the Holocene, that leaves many thousands of years for them to become established before the emigration of ancestral Bantu. So, as usual, your argument is nonsense.

The evidence is obvious. Bantu have West African haplogroups and autosomal components, which are rarely found north of Kenya. (As for E-M2, it is scarcely to be found in Sudan or the Horn of Africa, while the most divergent known branches are in Atlantic West Africa.) They don't have autochthonous East African ancestry (except of course to a small degree in East Africa). West African ancestry is completely absent in ancient samples from East and South Africa that are more than a couple thousand years old. But we *do* find high levels of distinctive East African ancestry associated with, e.g., Nilotic speakers.

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Elmaestro
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@xyyman
Ima give you a shot at redemption I don't wanna drag you too hard on your first week back...

lmao....

Riddle me this, Riddle me that... Where the fuq do you think these guys (Red Arrow) were located on the continent at the time of admixture.

 -

...
Before you dig yourself any deeper, really, Read what I said and really consider how it's significant regarding West African Substructure.

heres a hint, it's modeled as the same source for archaic admixture between the two (Mende and Yoruba)

quote:

Xyyman said:
What can't you understand about that simple chart? The ancient west African(preNeolithic) has dissipated they no longer exist. That is reflected in the differential structure between Mende and YRI. This is not rocket science guys. Substructure exist through out Africa. It is "color coded' lol! for those who find it difficult to read and understand.
...

IRRELEVANT! hahah!
lmao

 -
"Green=Iwo eleru whose genes have largely been lost."

^Is this not the distribution of modern bantu speakers....?? who also according to schlebush are partly Archaic African... I mean for crying out loud Your source is using the Mende as a proxy for bantu ancestry. ;-)

So where on the continent did the Neolithic E-M2 and L3 carriers meet with these "preneolithic Africans" before expanding?????

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
The point of the link is to provide oral traditional evidence. The African tribe such as the Yoruba claim to come from the east.

This is the kind of thing I mean.

"The general trend of these theories, most of them based on Yoruba traditions, is that of a possible origin from 'the east'. Some scholars, impressed by the similarities between Yoruba and ancient Egyptian culture, religious observation, works of art, burial and other customs, speak of a possible migration of the ancestors of the Yoruba from the upper Nile (as early as 2000BC- 1000BC) as a result of some upheavals in ancient Egypt."

So there are traditions of coming from the east, and some scholars have used modern evidence to argue that the location of origin in the east was Egypt/Sudan.

"The Awujale of Ijebu land has shown that the Ijebus are descended from ancient Nubia (a colony of Egypt). He was able to use the evidence of language, body, scarification, coronation rituals that are similar to Nubians', etc, to show that the Ijebus are descendants of the Nubians. What the present Awujale claimed for the Ijebus, can be authenticated all over Yoruba land."

This authority has *theorized* from various evidence, notably *not* including the details of oral traditions, that the Yoruba come from Nubia.

Oral traditions are living traditions; if I learn from my grandfather that we came from the east, and then I learn from the Awujale of Ijebus, presumably an intelligent and respected authority, that he figures we came from Nubia specifically, when I pass down the story to my grandchildren I'm going to tell them we come from Nubia, and now that's the oral tradition.

And then this oral tradition doesn't *support* the arguments from other evidence; it is *based on* the other evidence. This is not a new thing either, though of course with literacy and long-distance communications the possibilities have increased; people have been trying to puzzle out origins for a long time, and a persuasive hypothesis about origins may become accepted wisdom. And (if you read ancient authors like Herodotus) these were often based on arguments we'd consider hopelessly naive these days, like a coincidence of tribal names. (That is not to say the people who came up with them were stupid, quite the opposite.)

Now I am not saying oral traditions are without value, but there are a lot of pitfalls.

(Also, in this case, influential travellers bringing ideas from Egypt or Nubia to the west is perfectly possible without requiring entire tribes with their genes and languages to move wholesale from that region.)

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xyyman
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Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Man you people. This paper confirms what I have been saying all along and corroborates Skoglund 2017. West African Are primarily East Africans(Neolithic) who admixed with an Ancient population.

Did you read the paper? Did you understand it. Sometimes I question why I waste my time teaching some of you. All West Africans carry NiloSaharan ancestry. That is West Africans connection to AEians. Don't you get that? Read the paper. Look at the charts. @K3 All African in the dataset are connected to Nilo-Saharans. The author clearly states the pattern is consistent with Isolation By Distance.

In case you haven't noticed Zambia is next to Malawi. Again we go back to the mouth of the Great Lakes. They did not sample Malawi!!!! Don't you get that?

What am dealing with here? There is no absolutely no genetic evidence of Bantus migrating from the West to East, none! The author is speculating based upon linguistics. We know that is also a lie. See my thread on ESR. Recent linguistics experts have confirmed that.

 -


 -

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xyyman
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Listen Capra ...don't go nutty on me. Lol! Ricky on Davidski provides enough entertainment with his over-imagination . I DON"T ARGUE HYPOTHETICALS!!!! GIVE ME DATA!!!

Quote by Capra " Iwo Eleru-type people being in the forest zone of West Africa in the Palaeolithic does not prevent other people being in West Africa in the Palaeolithic."

Who is arguing that? It is color coded. RED, GREEN, YELLOW. Three, three, three, three major population structures. The RED goes to the West and South and point further North, Some remain at the Great Lakes. This is not rocket science. It is on the front page of Skoglund.

This is the same pattern in" Evidence of population specific selection inferred 1! from 289 genome sequences of Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo linguistic groups in Africa" Mulindwa et al

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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That is the problem with you white liberals. You think you will have an easier time if YOU come at black people with your BS ideas. Read the paper(s)!! Provide the data. Iwo Eleru do not cluster with Modern West Africans.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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And you may be right based upon the genetic evidence


quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
yoruba: the egyptian connection
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2139

NO raceandhistory links in this thread please.
The point of the link is to provide oral traditional evidence. The African tribe such as the Yoruba claim to come from the east.


--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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capra
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lol as usual nothing but empty bluster

Lugbara are Central Sudanic people from Congo-Uganda border region. It is questionable whether Central Sudanic is even related to Eastern Sudanic (e.g. Nilotic, Nubian). Unfortunately Central Africa is severely understudied, I can't recall a single study actually devoted to sorting it out. Here we have a single 'Nilo-Saharan' group amid a ton of Niger-Congo speakers; the Chad one wimped out and spent all its time on easy-to-find Eurasian admixture; the recent Sudan paper was good but almost all further east.

I wish there were more data on the Central Sudanic groups. I do have Y-DNA data for Laka and Sara in southern Chad: the former had 39% E-M2, the latter 52% (both have smaller amounts of B2a and E2 as well). So they, at least, are genetically related to Bantu in a way that Dinka or Nuer are not; I don't know about Lugbara though.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

All West Africans carry NiloSaharan ancestry.
West African Are primarily East Africans(Neolithic) who admixed with an Ancient population.


which ancient population?


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language


So if Bantus are NiloSaharans mixed with some other populations you don't know the name of and they are currently living in places including Cameroon

Then to have gotten to Cameroon they must have come there from the East Africa.

The bantu migration refers to a period much more recent, only beginning about 5,000 years ago around 3,000 B.C. where the bantus in the Cameroon region became larger and then expanded from there into other parts of Africa.

But you say this never happened.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

All West Africans carry NiloSaharan ancestry.
West African Are primarily East Africans(Neolithic) who admixed with an Ancient population.


If you say that bantus are the youngest of African groups and language but you can't name this "ancient population" who you say admixed with them wouldn't it be a better idea that you be quiet and pipe down?

You act like that Bantu expansion is some sort of racist theory.
If you think that explain to use precisely and clearly you think that is

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
lol as usual nothing but empty bluster

Lugbara are Central Sudanic people from Congo-Uganda border region. It is questionable whether Central Sudanic is even related to Eastern Sudanic (e.g. Nilotic, Nubian). Unfortunately Central Africa is severely understudied, I can't recall a single study actually devoted to sorting it out. Here we have a single 'Nilo-Saharan' group amid a ton of Niger-Congo speakers; the Chad one wimped out and spent all its time on easy-to-find Eurasian admixture; the recent Sudan paper was good but almost all further east.

I wish there were more data on the Central Sudanic groups. I do have Y-DNA data for Laka and Sara in southern Chad: the former had 39% E-M2, the latter 52% (both have smaller amounts of B2a and E2 as well). So they, at least, are genetically related to Bantu in a way that Dinka or Nuer are not; I don't know about Lugbara though.

South Sudanese Nilotes are their own distinct branch of the NS stratigraph. You will have weak West <-> East signals comparing them to protobantu, Niger Kordifanian or even central sudanic Nilo-Saharan groups. They were never to be used as identifiers for quintessential Nilosaharan ancestry. You'll have an easier time trying to find a connection between the Kunama and the Songhai.

...here for example
 -

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Elmaestro
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You have to wonder that with all this talk about a Autosome/language correlation why there is such a disparity between NS and AA speakers to the East Vs the West of Africa. (ex: Sonjhai and Hausa vs Kunama and Omotic.) An easy answer for know is that we've wasted time critically comparing the wrong populations.
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Elite Diasporan
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@Capra

HERE IS The passage from the book that I am talking about!!!!!!

quote:
Brother Lt.Col. E. L. de Cordes, who was in South Africa for three years, informed the writer that in one of the Ruins" there is a "stone-chamber," with a vast quantity of Papyri, covered with old Egyptian hieroglyphics. A Boer hunter discovered this, and a large quantity was used to light a fire with, and yet still a larger quantity remained there now.
Albert Churchward, The Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man, 2nd Edition, UK. George Allen & Co., 1913, p.75.

^^^Please not that I am citing from the DIRECT source and not the book I read itself. In the book, the author quoted this from the ORIGINAL source. So all in all I am citing the ORIGINAL source instead of the book I read.

What are you guys thoughts on this? I NEED to hear you guy's opinion. Why hasn't this hardly been talked about?

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xyyman
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wow! first I am hearing about this. Interesting ED.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Am I talking to a wall? Skoglund Also said there was an ancient West African population. Look at the chart. Who were they?,.....Paleolithic West African?! Iwo Eleru? We know Iwo Eleru the OLDEST West African(15000bc) is NOT related to modern West Africans so obviously modern West Africans do NOT have a preNeolithic presence in West Africa. Where did these ancient Africans come from? Skoglund stated there is substructure(green) in Africa. Mende has more of these ancient Africans DNA compared to YRI. In the OP study Mende is seperated from YRI. which corraborates!!!

Am I the only one with a brain on this site?


 -

 -

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

All West Africans carry NiloSaharan ancestry.
West African Are primarily East Africans(Neolithic) who admixed with an Ancient population.


which ancient population?


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language


So if Bantus are NiloSaharans mixed with some other populations you don't know the name of and they are currently living in places including Cameroon

Then to have gotten to Cameroon they must have come there from the East Africa.

The bantu migration refers to a period much more recent, only beginning about 5,000 years ago around 3,000 B.C. where the bantus in the Cameroon region became larger and then expanded from there into other parts of Africa.

But you say this never happened.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

All West Africans carry NiloSaharan ancestry.
West African Are primarily East Africans(Neolithic) who admixed with an Ancient population.


If you say that bantus are the youngest of African groups and language but you can't name this "ancient population" who you say admixed with them wouldn't it be a better idea that you be quiet and pipe down?

You act like that Bantu expansion is some sort of racist theory.
If you think that explain to use precisely and clearly you think that is



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
wow! first I am hearing about this. Interesting ED.

This is why we need more "Afrocentric" archaeologist...
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xyyman
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OP Conclusion? yes, the "Bantu" migration is from Sudan/East Africa.

 -

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Am I talking to a wall? Skoglund Also said there was an ancient WEST African population. Look at the chart. Who were they?,.....Paleolithic West African?! Iwo Eleru? We know Iwo Eleru the OLDEST West African(15000bc) is NOT related to modern West Africans so obviously modern West Africans do NOT have a preNeolithic presence in West Africa. Where did these ancient Africans come from? Skoglund stated there is substructure(green) in Africa. Mende has more of these ancient Africans DNA compared to YRI. In the OP study Mende is seperated from YRI. which corraborates!!!

lmao you're getting closer... Where did Modern west Africans and bantu speakers get these Archaic signature from??
Was it South Africa, where we have a Healthy genetic record of preneolithic populations Was it East Africa, where non bantu admixed populations LACK this introgression? Was it North Africa? or did preneolithic "East Africans" mix with these Archaic Africans in the west???

Tell me how this whole thing makes sense and stop playing games.

 -

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xyyman
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When and if the DNA of Iwo Erelu and Hofmyer is ever published I am thinking it will look similar to WHG/Melanesians/Onge etc

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elite Diasporan
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Good discussion between both parties.
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xyyman
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Huh? " Where did Modern west Africans and bantu speakers get these Archaic signature from??
Was it South Africa, where we have a Healthy genetic record of preneolithic populations Was it East Africa, where non bantu admixed populations LACK this introgression?"

Am I writing in Greek? lol


Substructure existed BEFORE the Neolithic. Green, Red and Yellow. That is why >2000bc South Africans are not related to ancient Tanzanians, ancient West Africans(Iwo Erelu?). Three major substructure=3 colors. The red then migrated out to the Green and Yellow region.

 -

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Huh? " Where did Modern west Africans and bantu speakers get these Archaic signature from??
Was it South Africa, where we have a Healthy genetic record of preneolithic populations Was it East Africa, where non bantu admixed populations LACK this introgression?"

Am I writing in Greek? lol


Substructure existed BEFORE the Neolithic. Green, Red and Yellow. That is why >2000bc South Africans are not related to ancient Tanzanians, ancient West Africans(Iwo Erelu?). Three major substructure=3 colors. The red then migrated out to the Green and Yellow region.

OK I guess I overestimated you
lemme break it down for you...

 -

1. the Transahelian Migration was from east to west... This not the "Bantu migration"
this is before your preneolithic west Africans who were IN west Africa met incoming Saharan/East Africans.
2.Prior to ~2500 years ago... East, South, and North East Africa had NO autosomal Bantu influence... none, zilch, nada... None in ballito bay and the entire south eastern continent prior to 2.5kya, including tanzania, malawi, etc.... Just incase you over read the part in skoglund(2017) where they mentioned that.
3.Marked by the pemba 700bp specimen in Tanzania, most of the modern SSA landscape consist of a shared autosomal genetic similarity. All of which can be Modeled by CONTEMPORARY WEST AFRICANS.

This can only be achieved from a post neolithic expansion from the west... You have to be entirely brain dead to deny this at this point. Archaic W.African ancestry shared in Niger Congo speakers from West AND east Africa locks down a westward origin for this dispersal.

You wasting time arguing against the Bantu Expansion when you can be looking into the preneolithic genetic landscape. It's almost like you act like you read things but don't. From the piece Andromeda posted.
quote:

The extent of the connection between evolutionary processes in West Africa and other regions of the continent remains to be evaluated through future studies and discoveries. However, it seems clear that such a connection did exist, and its importance may have been varied across the time span of the Pleistocene. West Africa may have provided important refuges for populations during glacial cycles, and at least three such refugia have been identified in this region. Alternatively, parts of West Africa may have repeatedly acted as ecological bottlenecks, with isolated populations persisting in areas far from the riparian networks of the eastern half of Africa. Such populations could have included archaic human groups as well as culturally anachronistic Homo sapiens using MSA technologies long replaced in other regions of Africa. Such cycles of repeated isolation and interaction represent powerful mechanisms for creating biological and cultural complexity, which may have ultimately affected diverse populations living across Africa. Certainly, as each region of Africa becomes better understood, both its archaeological signature and relationships with other regions become apparent. This is also likely to be the case with West Africa

[...]

In later time periods, the research emphasis shifts to the role of forests in keeping different populations apart. It appears that population diversity in West Africa was also more significant than hitherto considered prior to the significant extinction of hunter-gatherer diversity and expansion of farmers and later societies. In later prehistory, the role of West Africa as the source of Holocene and post-Holocene population expansions into North Africa and other regions of the continent also remains a matter of debate (e.g., MacDonald;122 Drake et al.;123; Stojanowski124). However, the resolution of recent climate records at least allows tentative correlations between the drying of the Sahara and the southward movements of its populations into Sahelian and tropical zones. Such processes, linked to the rise of politically complex societies, again emphasizes the place of West Africa in wider, pan-African processes of demographic movement and cultural change.

You're basically digging up information of population movements and evidence regarding "substructure" to propose the Bantu expansion came from sudan. But we are talking about holocene and pre-holocene population history... These events are damn near twice the age of the bantu expansion!
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Andromeda2025
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@lioness

"bantu expansion" as a simplistic euronut pseudo scientific african model on the indigenious people of Africa was High Key Racist. Since these "theories" where developed during the colonial period by German linguist Mienhoff as a way of classification as a mean/method to aid the subjugation, exploitation, theft, robbery and rape. Fast forward to modern times and the scramble for Africa continues with neo colonization 6.0.. enter the DNA games.

where nowadays most sub-Saharan Africans are speakers of Bantu languages. Given that the expansion did not follow a single continuous migration route, but rather, that it involved at least two major dispersals with different expansion centers (one in the west and one in the east) (Oslisly 1995), different geographical constraints, and at different times, it is not surprising that differences in the genetic composition of the different Bantu areas have been found, especially in terms of the degree of assimilation of hunter-gatherer populations (Thomas et al. 2000; Pereira et al. 2001, 2002; Salas et al. 2002; Plaza et al. 2004; Beleza et al. 2005).

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/26/7/1581/1123707

. Moreover, recent, groundbreaking work on Kainji languages (Blench & McGill 2012) suggests that the entire picture of Proto-Benue-Congo will change significantly (making it look less “Bantu”) once those diverse and typologically fascinating languages have been subject to more detailed comparative work.

http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935345.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935345-e-3#oxfordhb-9780199935345-e-3-bibItem-72

By contrast, some linguists have sought to combine Greenberg's four African families into larger units. In particular, Edgar Gregersen (1972) proposed joining Niger–Congo and Nilo-Saharan into a larger family, which he termed Kongo-Saharan. Roger Blench (1995) suggests Niger–Congo is a subfamily of Nilo-Saharan.

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the lioness,
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The bantu migration ( bantu expansion) began about 1000 BC

xyyman acts like anybody who talks about it is talking about bantus as if that means it's a multi-regional theory where bantus evolved in West Africa independently of other Africans

Of course it doesn't mean that. People who say there was a bantu migration also would tell you that bantus came from the south or east before they arrived in West Africa

He acts like "no, they came from East Africa" as if that would be a contradiction to the theory.
But it's not a contradiction. It is merely Pre-expansion-era demography, yes what the authors here call trans-Sahelian migration that occurred before it

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DD'eDeN
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Uganda: 5ka banana phytoliths found in 5m swamp in Uganda, indicating (pre-Bantu expansion & pre-Austronesian-Madagascar) trade or transit of bananas from Malaya-Papua to Uganda.
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Andromeda2025
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The bantu migration ( bantu expansion) began about 1000 BC

xyyman acts like anybody who talks about it is talking about bantus as if that means it's a multi-regional theory where bantus evolved in West Africa independently of other Africans

Of course it doesn't mean that. People who say there was a bantu migration also would tell you that bantus came from the south or east before they arrived in West Africa

He acts like "no, they came from East Africa" as if that would be a contradiction to the theory.
But it's not a contradiction. It is merely Pre-expansion-era demography, yes what the authors here call trans-Sahelian migration that occurred before it

 -

That map has the "bantu expansion" going straight through the Congo basin in what is now the DRC.

Logistically, how does a population manage that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvGByygjDt4

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
@Capra

HERE IS The passage from the book that I am talking about!!!!!!

quote:
Brother Lt.Col. E. L. de Cordes, who was in South Africa for three years, informed the writer that in one of the Ruins" there is a "stone-chamber," with a vast quantity of Papyri, covered with old Egyptian hieroglyphics. A Boer hunter discovered this, and a large quantity was used to light a fire with, and yet still a larger quantity remained there now.
Albert Churchward, The Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man, 2nd Edition, UK. George Allen & Co., 1913, p.75.

^^^Please not that I am citing from the DIRECT source and not the book I read itself. In the book, the author quoted this from the ORIGINAL source. So all in all I am citing the ORIGINAL source instead of the book I read.

What are you guys thoughts on this? I NEED to hear you guy's opinion. Why hasn't this hardly been talked about?

Is anyone ELSE going to address this?
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