posted
If they cannot tell the difference between a mockup and the original may be they should not be posting.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Here's a modified chart from this Lazaridis study showing where the Ancient Egyptians would probably be placed on the table:
As you can see Ancient Egyptians are not on the non-African side (obviously) of ancient specimen but on the Mota side. The non-African back migration into Africa happened well after the foundation of Ancient Egypt during the foreign dynasty era (Hyksos/Aamu) around 3000 years ago and afterward.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Farming and sedentism first appeared in southwestern Asia during the early Holocene and later spread to neighboring regions, including Europe, along multiple dispersal routes.
This is semantics. Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Journal of Archaeological Science September 2011, Vol.38(9):2475–2479, doi:10.1016/j.jas.2011.05.019 Satellite remote sensing in archaeology: past, present and future perspectives
Archaeological evidence regarding the presence of obsidian in levels that antedate the food production stage could have been the result of usage or intrusion of small obsidian artifacts from overlying Neolithic layers. The new obsidian hydration dates presented below employing the novel SIMS-SS method, offers new results of absolute dating concordant with the excavation data. Our contribution sheds new light on the Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene exploitation of obsidian sources on the island of Melos in the Cyclades reporting dates c. 13th millennium - end of 10th millennium B.P.
Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene seafaring in the Aegean: new obsidian hydration dates with the SIMS-SS method
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [qb] Here's a modified chart from this Lazaridis study showing where the Ancient Egyptians would probably be placed on the table:
Another looney toon with a long track record of denial and calling folks racist for dispelling his self-fabricated misinformation. Just months ago he was spamming Ricaut et al to wish away the fact that the African (i.e. epipalaeolithic Egyptian) contingent among the Natufians was obviously genetically and morphologically mostly North African.
Look at him now. Trying to blend in with the 'wacist' facts he's been antagonizing over the years. I guess we're supposed to buy this act and believe he knew it all along. We're supposed to ignore that his posts over several years were for the most part driven by complete self-fabricated garbage.
Note that he doesn't even know how to properly annotate that map to help visualize his hypothesis. He's connecting the AE to Mota, like they have an ancestor-descendant relationship and the single Mota individual is somehow an ancestral Egyptian population. But Mota is a contemporary of Old Kingdom ancient Egyptians. He obviously doesn't understand the structure and underlying logic of that model. Just making sh!t up as usual.
When trying to look sophisticated and intellectual just makes you look incompetent...
posted
Not to mention that Lazaridis et al say that the epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian sample is different from Mota's core ancestry. So that annotated map isn't based on any factual data. it's certainly not based on Lazaridis et al.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not to mention that Lazaridis et al say that the epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian sample is different from Mota's core ancestry. So that annotated map isn't based on any factual data. it's certainly not based on Lazaridis et al.
It's true according to Lazaridis Natufians are non-African.
But Ancient Egyptians are not migrants from ancient Israel but indigenous Africans like Mota. Their roots lies toward in the south toward upper/southern Egypt and Sudan. From the Nabta Playa, Kadruka, Tasian, Badarian, Naqada archeological continuity.
The roots of Ancient Egypt is in Africa, among Africans like the Cave of Swimmers/Beasts, Nabta Playa, Mota and Kadruka inhabitants.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If they cannot tell the difference between a mockup and the original may be they should not be posting.
There are other people reading these threads
You post charts, often leaving out the article source and then add your own printed text to them. Obviously many readers may not realize that some printed text is added by you. If you were honest you would add on the bottom in small print "red text and marks added by xyyman" and the title of the article. But of course you are not going to do that. You want to "make it your own"
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W O U L D - Y O U -- S T O P ---P O S T I N G ---BS!!!!!!. Cite the source.
Did Lazaridis analyzed North Africans or Sudan or Egyptians ?
Quote: “epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian”
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It's true according to Lazaridis Natufians are non-African.
Making stuff up again? Where did they say that?
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: But Ancient Egyptians are not migrants from ancient Israel but indigenous Africans like Mota.
Don't make me laugh. You spammed for years that E haplogroups necessarily have a Sub Saharan autosomal footprint. "E carriers are close to each others[sic]" was your slogan. So where is this guaranteed 'closeness' in these Natufian E carriers? Now that it's not found in the Natufians you want to disown them and dismiss your Ricaut spams? And what if I don't disown them because of it? Does that make me a "widiculous wacist"?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not to mention that Lazaridis et al say that the epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian sample is different from Mota's core ancestry. So that annotated map isn't based on any factual data. it's certainly not based on Lazaridis et al.
Wait not trying to get into this, but I thought they said no African ancestry was found? Due to using Yoruba as proxies for Africans if I remember correctly.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Don't make me laugh. You spammed for years that E haplogroups necessarily have a Sub Saharan autosomal footprint. "E carriers are close to each others[sic]" was your slogan. So where is this guaranteed 'closeness' in these Natufian E carriers? Now that it's not found in the Natufians you want to disown them and dismiss your Ricaut spams? And what if I don't disown them because of it? Does that make me a "widiculous wacist"?
I said African E carriers are close to each other not every joe blow with the hg E. You can see it with the Fst genetic distance. Albert Einstein is from haplogroup E, it doesn't make him African. Same thing with the high prevalence haplogroup E in the modern Balkans, Natufians or among some modern European populations. The high prevalence of hg E among those Eurasian people (Balkans, Natufians, etc) is the product of founder effect and genetic drift. Uniparental Hg is just one line of ancestry among many.
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AMRTU I agree with the youngsta. You need to shut up sometimes. Where did he say Natufians are not Africans? he clearly stated they are have an African origin and belong to YOUR P2 clade "which links all Africans". Your words. Are you saying West Africans are the ONLY Africans and they carry E-M2 like the AEians?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [Q]
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It's true according to Lazaridis Natufians are non-African.
Making stuff up again? Where did they say that? [/Q]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] AMRTU I agree with the youngsta. You need to shut up sometimes. Where did he say Natufians are not Africans? he clearly stated they are have an African origin and belong to YOUR P2 clade "which links all Africans". Your words. Are you saying West Africans are the ONLY Africans and they carry E-M2 like the AEians?
As I said even Albert Einstein (as many white Europeans) is from haplogroup E, it doesn't make him African.
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I understand people are trying to understand this stuff but after a few years we should at least learn MORE than the year before. The study states that Natufians do not carry MORE Yoruban ancestry NOT that they do not carry ANY Yoruban ancestry. In other words YES Natufians do carry Yoruban ancestry. What they are ruling out is a direct migration and direct connection between Yoruban and Natufians. And of course there will not be any direct connection. Yorubans are not the only Africans. There are 4000miles of migration to cover. It is a strawman tactic. They did not sample the most relevant populations. ie North Africans. Why?
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not to mention that Lazaridis et al say that the epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian sample is different from Mota's core ancestry. So that annotated map isn't based on any factual data. it's certainly not based on Lazaridis et al.
Wait not trying to get into this, but I thought they said no African ancestry was found? Due to using Yoruba as proxies for Africans if I remember correctly.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
BTW- AMRTU. I saw you register at Biorxiv. Good job. I tried registering myself. Waiting. No luck so far. Time to get out there!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] AMRTU I agree with the youngsta. You need to shut up sometimes. Where did he say Natufians are not Africans? he clearly stated they are have an African origin and belong to YOUR P2 clade "which links all Africans". Your words. Are you saying West Africans are the ONLY Africans and they carry E-M2 like the AEians?
As I said even Albert Einstein (as many white Europeans) is from haplogroup E, it doesn't make him African.
Weak analogy as usual. The African ancestry in the Natufians is recent enough for some of them to look like predynastic Egyptians and Nubians and for them to pass those phenotypes on to European farmers. The autosomal footprint of Einstein's E haplogroup, on the other hand, has been 'whitewashed' over ~180 generations.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Whoever they are, they are North African. Self-evident for those who are familiar with how North Africans in general cluster in PCA relative to Eurasians. In a global PCA context, Eurasians generally don't score more negatively along the Y axis than Sardinians. That's typically North African PCA 'territory'.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Here's a modified chart from this Lazaridis study showing where the Ancient Egyptians would probably be placed on the table:
As you can see Ancient Egyptians are not on the non-African side (obviously) of ancient specimen but on the Mota side. The non-African back migration into Africa happened well after the foundation of Ancient Egypt during the foreign dynasty era (Hyksos/Aamu) around 3000 years ago and afterward.
^^ this is very bad, even worse than xyyman
What you have done here is taken a chart form a scientific article and altered it so that the alteration looks like it was part of the original. Now people out of your hands might copy post it somewhere else and then people reading it in the new location are mislead to think that it represents original research.
If you are to do this sort of thing this is how it should be done:
Agreed they are most likely North Africans as they should be. geographically. But stop trying to mislead. But we know already modern Egyptians are NOT a good representation. And probably has no connection with the Natufians and just as the modern Levantines do not.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sudanese!!!! why? because modern Egyptians are 20% foreign. Just Like modern Levantine. Henn et al, DNATribes
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: @ BBH.
Look at fig 1b. If you had to guess, who would you say the gray dots surrounding and below the Natufians are?
Whoever they are, they are North African. Self-evident for those who are familiar with how North Africans in general cluster in PCA relative to Eurasians. Eurasians generally don't score more negatively along the Y axis than Sardianians.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Strawman? Feel free to clarify... I wasn't disagreeing with you BTW. I meant North African in a general sense.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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@ Lioness. Listen up. I do not alter charts to look like the original. I use different colors with my mock up so it is clear for the reader. I make sure the Fig # or Table # is displayed so readers can double check.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yes. But I do think that those samples happen to be Maghrebis. But I agree with you that North Africans in general would occupy that position. Especially North Africans with African ancestry that's not stereotypically African. See Dobon et al 2015's northern Sudanese samples.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Lioness. Listen up. I do not alter charts to look like the original. I use different colors with my mock up so it is clear for the reader. I make sure the Fig # or Table # is displayed so readers can double check.
^^ this is yours, no indication to the reader you added the red text. Now somebody reads Tishkoff on the chart and thinks she wrote "basal Eurasian Great lakes"
but she did not write "basal Eurasian Great lakes"
That is called doctoring a chart
It is supposed to say "red text and marks added"
What you are doing is bad.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The study states that Natufians do not carry MORE Yoruban ancestry NOT that they do not carry ANY Yoruban ancestry. In other words YES Natufians do carry Yoruban ancestry.
Correct observation.
I was waiting on someone here to make the correct observations in regards to the African ancestry in the Natufians. Didn't think you'd be the one to do it. There is more in the paper. You're almost there. See what good can come from taking your meds? ;p
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Aye... Silly me. I should KNOW better. I read "no Sub Saharan Ancestry" and went with them meaning no African ancestry. OF COURSE African ancestry is not limited to SSA. To me it may represent Egyptian/Sudaneae ancestry especially from the red sea coast of those areas. Hell thats where I now personally believe AA comes from.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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I was taught to have respect for your elders. ----------- Quote: “I was waiting on someone here to make the correct observations …. Didn't think you'd be the one to do it.”
------------------
Anyways. We agree the grey dots are probably modern Maghrebians but NOT modern Egyptians. Remember the “Nile was a barrier”. Sources cited. For some reason “other” Africans penetrated and controlled the Nile Valley. That is why to this days modern Egyptians carry more SSA lineage than any other North African population. In fact they carry very little mtDNA hg-H compared to mt-DNA hg-L.
Keep in mind the Bedouins carry the original substrate of Levantines. Source cited on ESR. They are the original inhabitants of the Levant and Arabia. They carry both Maghrebian AND SSA Lineage along with R-V88.
So no, I would not expect Natufians to carry modern SSA lineage
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I understand people are trying to understand this stuff but after a few years we should at least learn MORE than the year before. The study states that Natufians do not carry MORE Yoruban ancestry NOT that they do not carry ANY Yoruban ancestry. In other words YES Natufians do carry Yoruban ancestry. What they are ruling out is a direct migration and direct connection between Yoruban and Natufians. And of course there will not be any direct connection. Yorubans are not the only Africans. There are 4000miles of migration to cover. It is a strawman tactic. They did not sample the most relevant populations. ie North Africans. Why?
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not to mention that Lazaridis et al say that the epipalaeolithic Egyptian ancestry in the Natufian sample is different from Mota's core ancestry. So that annotated map isn't based on any factual data. it's certainly not based on Lazaridis et al.
Wait not trying to get into this, but I thought they said no African ancestry was found? Due to using Yoruba as proxies for Africans if I remember correctly.
Good post.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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You remember the autosomal analysis of the 18th and 20th dynasty royal mummies? Right?
You remember the haplogroup of Mota?
Have you noticed it was the same haplogroup as Ramses III?
This is not a matter of speculation. This is fact.
The fact that you claim to be representing facts does not make it right to use someone else's charts with their title of the chart and table number and then to alter the chart to you own liking without indicating that on the new chart
Also did you not just say this:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I said African E carriers are close to each other not every joe blow with the hg E. You can see it with the Fst genetic distance. Albert Einstein is from haplogroup E, it doesn't make him African. Same thing with the high prevalence haplogroup E in the modern Balkans, Natufians or among some modern European populations. The high prevalence of hg E among those Eurasian people (Balkans, Natufians, etc) is the product of founder effect and genetic drift. Uniparental Hg is just one line of ancestry among many. [/QB]
Aye... Silly me. I should KNOW better. I read "no Sub Saharan Ancestry" and went with them meaning no African ancestry. OF COURSE African ancestry is not limited to SSA. To me it may represent Egyptian/Sudaneae ancestry especially from the red sea coast of those areas. Hell thats where I now personally believe AA comes from.
Please, look at this map.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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What is the haplogroup of Ramses III and Mota? Do you remember the autosomal profile of Ramses III and the 18th dynasty royal mummies? Do you remember the dating for the back migration of Eurasians in Eastern Africa and modern Egypt?
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posted
Co-sign. What is the map showing ? Context?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I want what he is smoking……..Swenet! This is your buddy?
AA=AfroAsiatic or Afram?
Excuse me. I know Wally had that ludicrous idea.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Hell thats where I now personally believe AA comes from.
Anyone with common sense and an IQ above 70 knows I meant Afro-Asiatic and NOT African-Americans...
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My bad, I thought you were taking a page from Wally for awhile there. :D
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I want what he is smoking……..Swenet! This is your buddy?
AA=AfroAsiatic or Afram?
Excuse me. I know Wally had that ludicrous idea.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Hell thats where I now personally believe AA comes from.
Anyone with common sense and an IQ above 70 knows I meant Afro-Asiatic and NOT African-Americans...
Yes, and the map is showing what is considered "North Africa". It shows the transition zone/ Sahara/ Sahel-bridge. And supposed sub-Sahara Africa.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I dont know why all those in the "transition zone" are not North African minus the northern parts of Nigeria and Ethiopia.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Wait not trying to get into this, but I thought they said no African ancestry was found?
That's right. You were right in the first place. Almost no African ancestry was found in the Natufian specimens the Lazaridis study analyzed.
Ancient Egyptians are mostly indigenous Africans, coming from the south, thus more related to Mota and Kadruka inhabitants!
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The study states that Natufians do not carry MORE Yoruban ancestry NOT that they do not carry ANY Yoruban ancestry. In other words YES Natufians do carry Yoruban ancestry.
Correct observation.
I was waiting on someone here to make the correct observations in regards to the African ancestry in the Natufians. Didn't think you'd be the one to do it. There is more in the paper. You're almost there. See what good can come from taking your meds? ;p
This is what I meant when I said "there is more". According to the Lazaridis et al's statistics the Natufian sample consistently shares more alleles with the Yoruba sample than with Mota, Khoisan and Mbuti genomes. There is a rift between the African ancestry in these Natufians and the African ancestry in most Sub-Saharan samples. BUT, as xyyman correctly pointed out, these Natufians do have residual Sub-Saharan African ancestry. According to some tests, Lazaridis' Eurasian samples (e.g. La Brana) do, too.
The haplogroup correlates of the SSA ancestry in the Natufians are various L2a1 and L1b1a lineages. See here:
60,000 years of interactions between Central and Eastern Africa documented by major African mitochondrial haplogroup L2 http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12526
These are West/Central African haplogroups and so that's why the Natufians shift more towards the Yoruba sample than to the other African samples when asked if the Natufians are more related to Sub Saharan Africans than Eurasian samples are related to Sub Saharan Africans. Note the peculiar way this question is framed. (It's a very indirect and roundabout way of inferring African ancestry but you can get interesting results with it if you ask the right questions). Therefore you can't rule out Sub-Saharan ancestry when this statistic detects no special affinity between Sub-Saharan Africans and Natufians to the exclusion of various ancient Eurasians.
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@ AMRTU. You are out there broths. But you have good intentions. Phewwww!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I dont know why all those in the "transition zone" are not North African minus the northern parts of Nigeria and Ethiopia.
It is based on climatic and environmental conditions.
But the map, like many other maps shows what it is considered " North Africa". Sudan plays a major part in this "debate".
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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How is that map a bit more meaningful? What critical does it show?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The study states that Natufians do not carry MORE Yoruban ancestry NOT that they do not carry ANY Yoruban ancestry. In other words YES Natufians do carry Yoruban ancestry.
Correct observation.
I was waiting on someone here to make the correct observations in regards to the African ancestry in the Natufians. Didn't think you'd be the one to do it. There is more in the paper. You're almost there. See what good can come from taking your meds? ;p
This is what I meant when I said "there is more". According to the Lazaridis et al's statistics the Natufian sample consistently shares more alleles with the Yoruba sample than with Mota, Khoisan and Mbuti genomes. There is a rift between the African ancestry in these Natufians and the African ancestry in most Sub-Saharan samples. BUT, as xyyman correctly pointed out, these Natufians do have residual Sub-Saharan African ancestry. According to some tests, Lazaridis' Eurasian samples (e.g. La Brana) do, too.
The haplogroup correlates of the SSA ancestry in the Natufians are various L2a1 and L1b1a lineages. See here:
60,000 years of interactions between Central and Eastern Africa documented by major African mitochondrial haplogroup L2 http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12526
These are West/Central African haplogroups and so that's why the Natufians shift more towards the Yoruba sample than to the other African samples when asked if the Natufians are more related to Sub Saharan Africans than Eurasian samples are related to Sub Saharan Africans. Note the peculiar way this question is framed. (It's a very indirect and roundabout way of inferring African ancestry but you can get interesting results with it if you ask the right questions). Therefore you can't rule out Sub-Saharan ancestry when this statistic detects no special affinity between Sub-Saharan Africans and Natufians to the exclusion of various ancient Eurasians.
Remarkable,
quote:HAPLOGROUP L2A1
Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500 - 6000 BCE.[13]
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