And that's me after only 1 week under the mediterranean climate :
Funny, you don't look as dark as the Amazigh people above. Of course I don't deny your identity as Amazigh but I find it funny how you seem to deny high melanation among your people.
Which brings us back to the topic.
In 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, Asclepiades describes Didyme as such: Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.
You then question the meaning of their use of 'black' but black in Greek is not the same as 'dark' or 'tanned'.
quote:You then post: lol I just checked your link and this is what they say:
quote: S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".
F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king
hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.
'Ethiopian' was a Greek synonym for Nubian right? But aren't Nubians North Africans and NOT Sub-Saharans?
According to the sources that YOU YOURSELF posted above in previous page!:
quote: Your Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).
Why did you leave out the Kerman Nubians whom Naqadans group with first before the Gizeh folk?!! LOL Of course by your very logic according to the dendogram, Sub-Saharans are intermediate between Western Eurasians like Turks, Greeks, and Scandinavians on one on branch but East Asians like Evenks and Eskimos on another!
quote:And this:
^ According to the MDS scaling plot above, Kerma Nubians are closest to Germans in quadrant IV while Somalis are closest to Tagars in quadrant I above them! LOL
quote:And of course this:
The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping.
So how does any of this negate Didyme's black skin even IF she was not an ethnic Egyptian but Nubian???
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Funny, you don't look as dark as the Amazigh people above. Of course I don't deny your identity as Amazigh but I find it funny how you seem to deny high melanation among your people.
Where do you live ? I suppose the United States because you really seem to know north africans only through internet. Most north africans have my skin color and I'm one of the closest person to ancient guanches genetically. Your "melanated" north africans have recent black ancestors, when we analyze their genome they got huge amount of yoruba ancestry.
Cherrypicking black tunisians won't help you :
quote: If one believes certain Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.
L'esclavage en terre d'islam, Malek Chebel, p.227
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Which brings us back to the topic.
In 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, Asclepiades describes Didyme as such: Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.
You then question the meaning of their use of 'black' but black in Greek is not the same as 'dark' or 'tanned'.
quote: S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".
F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king
hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though. 'Ethiopian' was a Greek synonym for Nubian right? But aren't Nubians North Africans and NOT Sub-Saharans?
No it wasn't a synonym for "Nubian", it was a synonym for every dark skinned population that's why they also talked about aethiopians in Asia and of course in Africa they clearly made the distinction between Libyans/egyptians and Aethiopians (they also talked about west aethiopians or mixed groups like leucoaethiopians or melanogaetulians. Moreover Sudanese being "north african" is purely arbitrary and conventional (where do you think it got its name btw ? Never heard of "Bilad as-Sudan" ? )
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote: According to the sources that YOU YOURSELF posted above in previous page!: Your Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).
Why did you leave out the Kerman Nubians whom Naqadans group with first before the Gizeh folk?!! LOL Of course by your very logic according to the dendogram, Sub-Saharans are intermediate between Western Eurasians like Turks, Greeks, and Scandinavians on one on branch but East Asians like Evenks and Eskimos on another!
quote:And this:
^ According to the MDS scaling plot above, Kerma Nubians are closest to Germans in quadrant IV while Somalis are closest to Tagars in quadrant I above them! LOL
quote:And of course this:
The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping.
So how does any of this negate Didyme's black skin even IF she was not an ethnic Egyptian but Nubian??? [/QB]
So now strangely non-metric datas aren't as accurate as you thought ? XD It seems you also forgot lower nubians were mixed
quote:We find that the Kulubnarti Nubians were admixed with ~43% Nilotic-related ancestry on average (individual proportions varied between ~36-54%) and the remaining ancestry reflecting a West Eurasian-related gene pool likely introduced into Nubia through Egypt, but ultimately deriving from an ancestry pool like that found in the Bronze and Iron Age Levant. The admixed ancestry at Kulubnarti reflects interactions between genetically-distinct people in northeast Africa spanning almost a millennium, with West Eurasian ancestry disproportionately associated with females, highlighting the impact of female mobility in this region
quote:Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic
posted
The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
quote:Originally posted by sudanese: The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.
You could be right, but it still doesn't explain why a Greco-Roman writer (contemporary to the time) recognised a complexion gradient in which the Lower Nubians were only "partly more so" black than the Egyptians.
There would have been no need to say this if the Egyptians were just like Coastal Maghrebis.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
When do you think?
...Btw. Iberomaurasian wasn't half SSA. But if they were... what would the other half be in your opinion?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
When do you think?
...Btw. Iberomaurasian wasn't half SSA. But if they were... what would the other half be in your opinion?
I think the shift may have started around 5000 BCE
I seem to recall the Iberomaurusians being 40-50% SSA, but I may be mistaken and would be more than open to a correction.
I think the other component would have been Natufian and Anatolian.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.
You could be right, but it still doesn't explain why a Greco-Roman writer (contemporary to the time) recognised a complexion gradient in which the Lower Nubians were only "partly more so" black than the Egyptians.
There would have been no need to say this if the Egyptians were just like Coastal Maghrebis.
I'm not questionning this actually; that's in line with what we can witness today : the contrast isn't big between upper egyptians and lower nubians. And who claimed egyptians were like coastal maghrebis ? We can maybe claim this for delta egyptians but certainly not upper egyptians who are/were obviously darker.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.
You could be right, but it still doesn't explain why a Greco-Roman writer (contemporary to the time) recognised a complexion gradient in which the Lower Nubians were only "partly more so" black than the Egyptians.
There would have been no need to say this if the Egyptians were just like Coastal Maghrebis.
I'm not questionning this actually; that's in line with what we can witness today : the contrast isn't big between upper egyptians and lower nubians. And who claimed egyptians were like coastal maghrebis ? We can maybe claim this for delta egyptians but certainly not upper egyptians who are/were obviously darker.
Hmm, interesting... so you're conceding that the creators of Egyptian civilization (Upper Egyptians) were phenotypically closer to Lower Nubians than they were to Maghrebis?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Thanks for that clarification, lioness.
I essentially want to know if or when the Iberomaurusian type was replaced during the Predynastic period.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Hmm, interesting... so you're conceding that the creators of Egyptian civilization (Upper Egyptians) were phenotypically closer to Lower Nubians than they were to Maghrebis? [/QB]
Yes definitely even though we should be careful because modern lower Nubia seems to be inhabited by lots of different ethnic groups (I've heard about recent west african migrations too) but I admit I'm not a specialist on the region. My point is that ancient upper egyptians looked like their modern descendents and these people overlap a lot with lower nubians (even though the latter looks more black I'd say) and Egypt throughout all its history had the same kind of diversity we can see today with lower egyptians being lighter and more similar to their near eastern neighbours.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Thanks for that clarification, lioness.
I essentially want to know if or when the Iberomaurusian type was replaced during the Predynastic period.
Based on what I read it would be the VIth millenium BC for the delta (with the merimda culture) and Naqada II/Gerzean period for southern regions even though eurasian ancestry in north africa is older than this as seen with the IBM samples.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Hmm, interesting... so you're conceding that the creators of Egyptian civilization (Upper Egyptians) were phenotypically closer to Lower Nubians than they were to Maghrebis?
Yes definitely even though we should be careful because modern lower Nubia seems to be inhabited by lots of different ethnic groups (I've heard about recent west african migrations too) but I admit I'm not a specialist on the region. My point is that ancient upper egyptians looked like their modern descendents and these people overlap a lot with lower nubians (even though the latter looks more black I'd say) and Egypt throughout all its history had the same kind of diversity we can see today with lower egyptians being lighter and more similar to their near eastern neighbours. [/QB]
It seems clear that Lower Nubia was historically occupied by populations that would have looked the way they do today, so I don't expect a significant difference.
Lower Egypt doesn't really matter in discussing the origins of Egyptian civilization, so their affinities to the Near East isn't as consequential.
Upper Egypt created virtually all the material elements of Egyptian civilization; it was geographically and demographically larger; it was wealthier; more organised and sophisticated; it's where the spiritual seat of Egypt (Thebes) was located; and it was the region where the warrior-kings that expelled foreign aggressors almost invariably came from.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Thanks for that clarification, lioness.
I essentially want to know if or when the Iberomaurusian type was replaced during the Predynastic period.
Based on what I read it would be the VIth millenium BC for the delta (with the merimda culture) and Naqada II/Gerzean period for southern regions even though eurasian ancestry in north africa is older than this as seen with the IBM samples.
Could you be so kind as to recommend the material where this information is contained?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Since it was used in a scientific journal and all.
The terms that you want people to use gives no resolution in the contexts in which these Samples are discussed. It's like requesting people use Gobeki_Tepe or Peloponnese instead of EEF. Leave folks alone or ask questions to soothe your confusion.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Could you be so kind as to recommend the material where this information is contained? [/QB]
Yes no problem : Encyclopedia of global archeology, Springer, 2020, Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, pp. 699-700
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
When do you think?
...Btw. Iberomaurasian wasn't half SSA. But if they were... what would the other half be in your opinion?
I think the shift may have started around 5000 BCE
I seem to recall the Iberomaurusians being 40-50% SSA, but I may be mistaken and would be more than open to a correction.
I think the other component would have been Natufian and Anatolian.
This is very interesting. Do you think copper age North Africans would have been less Eurasian than Nile valley inhabitants ~4500 BCE?
Taforalt can be at most to 45% SSA by any metric which defines SSA by living SSA populations... On average they are 25-40% and have been reported 1/3rd SSA.
quote:"The Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene."
-10.1126/science.aar8380
...I'm starting to see where the confusion might be coming in. Taforalt can be modeled as loosely as SSA + Natufian. But the fits are bad as Taforalt isn't SSA + Natufian. Natufians can be successfully modeled as an Ancient Caucus-related (Dzudzuana or Satsurblia 29) + Taforalt.
quote:"Taforalt could not be modeled as any 2-way mixture. The best model involving Natufians and an African population (Yoruba) could still be strongly rejected (p=2.7e-13). Taforalt could also not be modeled as a 3-way mixture. However, Natufians could be convincingly modeled as a 2-way mixture of ~86% Dzudzuana and ~14% Taforalt (p=0.405) with small standard errors of 1.9%. Thus the affinity between Natufians and Taforalt described in ref.15 may have come about by admixture from a North African/Taforalt-related population into Natufians, rather than by admixture in the opposite direction."
-10.1101/423079
Any model involving Anatolia Neolithic populations as ancestors to Taforalt in Anachronistic and haven't been proposed. The non African/ Non Basal Eurasian portion of Taforalt have been described as Villabruna-related; essentially a unique group of Western hunter-gatherer (WHG).
From the same study above;
quote:"“Western” Near Eastern populations, including Dzudzuana from the Caucasus, belonged to a cline of decreasing Villabruna/increasing deep ancestry: Villabruna → Dzudzuana/Anatolia_N → PPNB → Natufian → Taforalt"
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Where do you live? I suppose the United States because you really seem to know north africans only through internet. Most north africans have my skin color and I'm one of the closest person to ancient guanches genetically. Your "melanated" north africans have recent black ancestors, when we analyze their genome they got huge amount of yoruba ancestry.
Actually, the state where I live is quite diverse esepecially in the urban areas. I have seen plenty of North Africans in person and know an Egyptian community. They by and large consider themselves 'brown' and look "mulatto" similar to Puerto-Ricans, Dominicians, and Cubans. Most North Africans don't look like white coastal Berbers or white Guanches, who don't represent all North Africans let alone northeast Africans. Also not all Sub-Saharan ancestry is "Yoruban" anymore than all European ancestry is German.
quote:Cherrypicking black tunisians won't help you :
quote: If one believes certain Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.
L'esclavage en terre d'islam, Malek Chebel, p.227
*yawn* Enough of the "slave" straw doll argument. Not all Sub-Saharan ancestry in North Africa is due to slavery, and not all black as in dark complexions among North Africans is due to Sub-Saharans. That's the point of my post-- BLACK North Africans. Are you saying Didyme or other Egyptians like Tiye and King Tut are dark colored because of Sub-Saharan slaves??
quote:No it wasn't a synonym for "Nubian", it was a synonym for every dark skinned population that's why they also talked about aethiopians in Asia and of course in Africa they clearly made the distinction between Libyans/egyptians and Aethiopians (they also talked about west aethiopians or mixed groups like leucoaethiopians or melanogaetulians. Moreover Sudanese being "north african" is purely arbitrary and conventional (where do you think it got its name btw ? Never heard of "Bilad as-Sudan" ? )
I thought I told you that "Aethiopian" is of unknown etymology and Greeks merely began using it for very dark skinned persons. 'Aethiopia' originally referred to a country in Asia, most likely the Levant since its capital was Joppa (Yaffa?) home of Princess Andromeda and Memnon son of Eos (Dawn) was their king. The Greeks even described a Leuko-Syrians in the Levant. What does that tell you?
I already told you that the term for black 'melanos' and even 'melanchroe' was used not just for Ethiopians but Egyptians as well!!
Also "Libya" was the Greek designation for Africa in general.
Herodotus ( The Histories, Book 2:104): ..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..."
Ammianus Marcellinus (Book XXII para 16): ...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look.
Aristotle: Those who are very black are cowards as, for example, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But the excessively white ones also are cowards
and
Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports his theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations...
Lycinus (describing an Egyptian): 'this boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a plait shows that he is not a freeman.'
Apollodorus (Book II, paras 3 and 4): Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself
Aeschylus ( The Suppliants, vv. 719-20, 745): Danaos describing the Egyptians-- I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.
quote:So now strangely non-metric datas aren't as accurate as you thought?...
I never said that, you dishonest neandernut. The results make sense considering the African admixture among ANF.
From the same source you cited--F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564: A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
We see the rest of this African influence in the Aegean area as well.
The Forerunner During the Early Minoan period thepopulation of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed. -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1. Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut p.138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips."
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
Yeah, I don't think all these blacks in the Aegean were slaves from Sub-Sahara.
quote:XD It seems you also forgot lower nubians were mixed
quote:We find that the Kulubnarti Nubians were admixed with ~43% Nilotic-related ancestry on average (individual proportions varied between ~36-54%) and the remaining ancestry reflecting a West Eurasian-related gene pool likely introduced into Nubia through Egypt, but ultimately deriving from an ancestry pool like that found in the Bronze and Iron Age Levant. The admixed ancestry at Kulubnarti reflects interactions between genetically-distinct people in northeast Africa spanning almost a millennium, with West Eurasian ancestry disproportionately associated with females, highlighting the impact of female mobility in this region
I forgot nothing, but it seems you forgot the study you cite is based on Christian Era Nubians only! LOL And of course their admixture comes from Levantines who are themselves mixed with Africans from the epipaleolithic, so...
quote:Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic https://www.academia.edu/33460334/Population_of_Nubia_up_to_the_16th_century_BC
First of all the study above is based on metric data. Nonmetric data has debunked the notion of close genetic ties with the Levant via Lachish remains, much less Mesopotamia and India! Genetics has also confirmed this. Plus It's not just Lower Nubians but also Upper Nubians such as al Khiday per Irish and even Ethiopians per Haddow going into Sub-Sahara! Genetics does NOT show invading "Eurasian-Caucasoids" into these areas and neither does archaeology. This is why the 'Hamitic Hypothesis' was debunked decades ago!
By the way, what does any of this have to do with Didyme's black skin?! Whether she is Egyptian or Nubian her complexion is compared to coals. Even if she were part of the "Eurasian-Caucasoid" construct you obsess over, it still won't change her skin color.
Dana Marniche is right, you white Amazigh do have negrophobia. You are in denial of the fact that it is your white skin that is foreign to North Africa NOT black skin! And despite your white skin, you still carry black ancestry from your forefathers who carry E-M81. LOL
You may be a North African but you are still a Neandernut that loves getting his skull bashed in by his own club! LOLPosts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: This is very interesting. Do you think copper age North Africans would have been less Eurasian than Nile valley inhabitants ~4500 BCE?
Taforalt can be at most to 45% SSA by any metric which defines SSA by living SSA populations... On average they are 25-40% and have been reported 1/3rd SSA.
quote:"The Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene."
-10.1126/science.aar8380
...I'm starting to see where the confusion might be coming in. Taforalt can be modeled as loosely as SSA + Natufian. But the fits are bad as Taforalt isn't SSA + Natufian. Natufians can be successfully modeled as an Ancient Caucus-related (Dzudzuana or Satsurblia 29) + Taforalt.
quote:"Taforalt could not be modeled as any 2-way mixture. The best model involving Natufians and an African population (Yoruba) could still be strongly rejected (p=2.7e-13). Taforalt could also not be modeled as a 3-way mixture. However, Natufians could be convincingly modeled as a 2-way mixture of ~86% Dzudzuana and ~14% Taforalt (p=0.405) with small standard errors of 1.9%. Thus the affinity between Natufians and Taforalt described in ref.15 may have come about by admixture from a North African/Taforalt-related population into Natufians, rather than by admixture in the opposite direction."
-10.1101/423079
Any model involving Anatolia Neolithic populations as ancestors to Taforalt in Anachronistic and haven't been proposed. The non African/ Non Basal Eurasian portion of Taforalt have been described as Villabruna-related; essentially a unique group of Western hunter-gatherer (WHG).
From the same study above;
quote:"“Western” Near Eastern populations, including Dzudzuana from the Caucasus, belonged to a cline of decreasing Villabruna/increasing deep ancestry: Villabruna → Dzudzuana/Anatolia_N → PPNB → Natufian → Taforalt"
[/QB]
Wait I'm confused now; IBM got it directly from a villabruna source ? Or from west asian intermediaries ? It reminds me of these old theories about a possible link with the italian epigravettian and would explain why taforalt skulls showed such strong similarities with WHG.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Wait I'm confused now; IBM got it directly from a villabruna source ?
According to some recent researchers Taforalt is a combination of Levant-Natufian maternal DNA and sub-Saharan E-M78 since the Natufian E clade was different
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?
Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.
What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?
I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa) It's not being used in scientific journal articles
If you instead use any of these terms: Taforalt/Afalou Iberomaurusian Mechta-Afalou All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains it will be more precise because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago
Since it was used in a scientific journal and all.
The terms that you want people to use gives no resolution in the contexts in which these Samples are discussed. It's like requesting people use Gobeki_Tepe or Peloponnese instead of EEF. Leave folks alone or ask questions to soothe your confusion.
At least "ghost" hints that the population is hypothetical EEF, "Basal Eurasian, ANA I don't like these terms. It's spin. People love these short abbreviations but don't realize that by using them they becoming a subscriber to Lazrarids's theories just by using his lingo and then tree charts are made presenting hypothetical populations looking no different then actual human remains
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, the state where I live is quite diverse esepecially in the urban areas. I have seen plenty of North Africans in person and know an Egyptian community. They by and large consider themselves 'brown' and look "mulatto" similar to Puerto-Ricans, Dominicians, and Cubans. Most North Africans don't look like white coastal Berbers or white Guanches, who don't represent all North Africans let alone northeast Africans. Also not all Sub-Saharan ancestry is "Yoruban" anymore than all European ancestry is German.
There is barely any berber diaspora in the US and egyptians aren't representative of all north africans, they in general are significantly darker than berbers. Most north africans live along the coast and look like me :
and Guanches are very important since they tell us what profile existed in NW Africa prior to the arab conquest and the trans-saharan slave trade. You think guanches magically appeared in those islands ? They came from what is now Morocco (especially the area around the cap tarfaya). As for "yoruba" I brought it because samples are commonly modelled with it.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: *yawn* Enough of the "slave" straw doll argument. Not all Sub-Saharan ancestry in North Africa is due to slavery, and not all black as in dark complexions among North Africans is due to Sub-Saharans. That's the point of my post-- BLACK North Africans. Are you saying Didyme or other Egyptians like Tiye and King Tut are dark colored because of Sub-Saharan slaves??
Nobody said or imply it's all from the slave trade but most of it is and you keep spaming black north africans without taking into account their history. Didyme wasn't egyptian, tiye wasn't dark/black (you only say this based on a dark wooden bust) and King tut wasn't dark (you confuse dark skin with the conventional red color in egyptian art and also seem to forget that people can tan)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I thought I told you that "Aethiopian" is of unknown etymology and Greeks merely began using it for very dark skinned persons. 'Aethiopia' originally referred to a country in Asia, most likely the Levant since its capital was Joppa (Yaffa?) home of Princess Andromeda and Memnon son of Eos (Dawn) was their king. The Greeks even described a Leuko-Syrians in the Levant. What does that tell you?
I already told you that the term for black 'melanos' and even 'melanchroe' was used not just for Ethiopians but Egyptians as well!!
Also "Libya" was the Greek designation for Africa in general.
Herodotus ( The Histories, Book 2:104): ..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..."
Ammianus Marcellinus (Book XXII para 16): ...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with askinny desiccated look.
Aristotle: Those who are very black are cowards as, for example, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But the excessively white ones also are cowards
and
Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports his theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations...
Lycinus (describing an Egyptian): 'this boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a plait shows that he is not a freeman.'
Apollodorus (Book II, paras 3 and 4): Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself
Aeschylus ( The Suppliants, vv. 719-20, 745): Danaos describing the Egyptians-- I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.
I honestly start to be tired of your dishonesty but ok if you want me to spam quotes let's go :
quote: Herodotus lists two newcomer peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes* to the south - inhabiting "Libya" (IV 197, 2). Toponym and ethnicity were thus separated in their geographical connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves above all as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by their lighter skin and other characteristics from the negroid Ethiopians (for a detailed catalog of the "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested throughout antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962).
quote:In classical times the earliest detailed account of the partition of the Libyan tribes is found in Herodotus. According to the historian, Libya began west of the Nile, 7 and ran to the Atlantic/ being bordered on the south by the land of the Aethiopians, who were black and woolly-haired. 9
O. Bates, The eastern libyans, pp. 51
quote:As one advanced further to the south of Gaetulian lands, into the Sahara and its northern peripheries, the ethnic labels became fuzzier, more general, and often, since land and space were so vast and indeterminate, they were based more on a phenotyping of personal appearance than of place. The peoples deep to the south in the Sahara were called Aethiopes or peoples whose skin had been burnt to a darker color. (Hölscher 1937; Thompson 1989; Desanges 1993).
Brent D. Shaw, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 532
quote:The name ‘Ethiopia’ was applied by the Greeks to any region in the far south of Africa. The Greek word aithops is related to the word aithos, which means ‘burning heat’, thus the people of ‘Aithiopia’ were described as ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black. An ethnic connotation is already found in Homer (Od. 2.22).
quote:Be grateful, you wretch, and offer your wife yourself whatever she has To take, since if she had chosen to let vigorous boys vex and stretch Her belly, you might have been father to an Ethiopian! Your dark heir, Barely visible at dawn, would soon be seen everywhere in the will.
Juvenal, Satire VI 592-660
quote:Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest". [59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians".
quote:The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
quote:As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
quote:This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun.” There is also visual evidence for black slaves in Roman antiquity, including the mosaics at Piazza Armerina.
Kyle Harper, Slavery in the late roman World AD 275-425, pp. 88
So there is no ambiguity when it comes to "aethiops". Now for ancient levantines :
quote:Second, an allele at rs1426654 in the SLC24A5 gene which is one of the most important determinants of light pigmentation in West Eurasians41 is fixed for the derived allele (A) in the Levant_ChL population suggesting that a light skinned phenotype may have been common in this population, although any inferences about skin pigmentation based on allele frequencies observed at a single site need to be viewed with caution42.
quote:"We highlight three findings of interest. First, an allele (G) at rs12913832 near the OCA2 gene, with a proven association to blue eye color in individuals of European descent40, has an estimated alternative allele frequency of 49% in the Levant_ChL population, suggesting that the blue-eyed phenotype was common in the Levant_ChL.
The closest populations to these bronze age levantines are modern levantines :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I never said that, you dishonest neandernut. The results make sense considering the African admixture among ANF.
From the same source you cited--F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564: A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
We see the rest of this African influence in the Aegean area as well.
The Forerunner During the Early Minoan period thepopulation of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed. -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1. Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut p.138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips."
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976[i]
Yeah, I don't think all these blacks in the Aegean were slaves from Sub-Sahara.
Such depictions are found in later periods, I don't see what's surprising about it. Greeks and later romans often depicted sudanese/kushites they encounter in Egypt or the in the persian army (your own quotes mention nubian mercenaries) :
but overall they were rare and seen as "exotic" :
quote: it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.
We see the same behaviour with the north african emperor septimius severus :
quote:"After inspecting the wall near the rampart in Britain… just as he [Severus] was wondering what omen would present itself, an Ethiopian from a military unit, who was famous among buffoons and always a notable joker, met him with a garland of cypress. And when Severus in a rage ordered that the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour and the ominous nature of the garland, [the Ethiopian] by way of jest cried, it is said, “You have been all things, you have conquered all things, now, O conqueror, be a god.” "
(Historia Augusta, ‘Septimius Severus’, 22.4-5)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I forgot nothing, but it seems you forgot the study you cite is based on Christian Era Nubians only! LOL And of course their admixture comes from Levantines who are themselves mixed with Africans from the epipaleolithic, so...
quote:[i] Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic[i] https://www.academia.edu/33460334/Population_of_Nubia_up_to_the_16th_century_BC
First of all the study above is based on metric data. Nonmetric data has debunked the notion of close genetic ties with the Levant via Lachish remains, much less Mesopotamia and India! Genetics has also confirmed this. Plus It's not just Lower Nubians but also Upper Nubians such as al Khiday per Irish and even Ethiopians per Haddow going into Sub-Sahara!
You may be a North African but you are still a Neandernut that loves getting his skull bashed in by his own club! LOL [/QB]
That's what you said : "The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping."
that's what the graph showed :
Therefore kulubnarti are representative and since when are metric studies/works irrelevant ? Because they don't support your claims ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
Sudanese you are correct. The Greeks and Romans did indeed acknowledge a complexion gradient with some Africans being darker than others.
Remember, according to the Greek worldview humans can be divided into southern and northern races. The northern races are those north of the Mediterranean Sea whereas the southern races are those south of that sea and according to Greek myth the latter were turned black by Phaethon when he nearly crashed his father's chariot (the sun) to earth scorching the lands into desert. That said there was a gradient of both 'blackness' and 'whiteness', with the medium being reached in the Mediterranean basin itself and the ethnocentric Greeks considered themselves to be center of the hues! Surprise, surprise.
Manilius Astronomicon 4.711-730 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomenoris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Translation: Because of the different laws and variant figures an organized race of people and of their own color nations are formed, and rights are united by means of the joints they sign materials to the level of a private league. The blonde rises in huge births in Germany; Gaul near at hand is less ruddy The more severe Spain contracts the solid parts. The Martian father of the Roman city puts on the edge Venus warms her limbs the subtle and highly colored peoples of Greece he prefers the gymnastic look, and the brave sports and Syria betrays her hair twisted in chronological order.
Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men infused in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: now nearer and the medium produces a moderate tenor. Phoebus with sandy Aferam dust dries up the people, and Mauritania is the name it has a label on its face and it bears the same color.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.
Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: There is barely any berber diaspora in the US and egyptians aren't representative of all north africans, they in general are significantly darker than berbers. Most north africans live along the coast and look like me:
I never said Egyptians are representative of all North Africans, but YOU seem to insinuate Maghrebis are! Also, this very thread is about a Northeast African-- Egyptian or possible Nubian! You're the one who keeps bringing up Maghrebis!
quote:
and Guanches are very important since they tell us what profile existed in NW Africa prior to the arab conquest and the trans-saharan slave trade. You think guanches magically appeared in those islands? They came from what is now Morocco (especially the area around the cap tarfaya). As for "yoruba" I brought it because samples are commonly modelled with it.
Again, this thread is not about Maghrebis. I already cited sources showing that Guanches are not the only Canarians and that there are darker skinned ('black') Canarians also who were the first victims of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.
I'm not even going to go into the history of Morocco whose namesake Moor means 'black'. If you want to discuss that, there are more than plenty of threads in the archives where that issue was already addressed.
quote:Nobody said or imply it's all from the slave trade but most of it is and you keep spaming black north africans without taking into account their history. Didyme wasn't egyptian, tiye wasn't dark/black (you only say this based on a dark wooden bust) and King tut wasn't dark (you confuse dark skin with the conventional red color in egyptian art and also seem to forget that people can tan)
Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.
Where is your proof that Didyme was not Egyptian?? I already showed you proof that Tiye was black not only based on her painted bust but other depictions showing her true dark color and NOT the yellow skin convention. King Tut was NOT "tanned" as not only was he shown with a reddish brown convention on his tomb murals but his painted bust shows him with chocolate dark complexion. Funny how you nobody says his bust or his throne image turned dark with "age"!
LOL Your arguments are totally bankrupt and without substantiation, like all Neandernuts!
quote:I honestly start to be tired of your dishonesty but ok if you want me to spam quotes let's go:
Quit projecting, Neandernut! The only one dishonest is YOU as I already busted your lyingass multiple times on multiple threads in this blog! If I am dishonest then, prove it and bust me!
quote:
quote:Herodotus lists two newcomer peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes* to the south - inhabiting "Libya" (IV 197, 2). Toponym and ethnicity were thus separated in their geographical connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves above all as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by their lighter skin and other characteristics from the negroid Ethiopians [i] (for a detailed catalog of the "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested throughout antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962). https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/338
[QUOTE]In classical times the earliest detailed account of the partition of the Libyan tribes is found in Herodotus. According to the historian, Libya began west of the Nile, 7 and ran to the Atlantic/ being bordered on the south by the land of the Aethiopians, who were black and woolly-haired. 9
O. Bates, The eastern libyans, pp. 51
quote:As one advanced further to the south of Gaetulian lands, into the Sahara and its northern peripheries, the ethnic labels became fuzzier, more general, and often, since land and space were so vast and indeterminate, they were based more on a phenotyping of personal appearance than of place. The peoples deep to the south in the Sahara were called Aethiopes or peoples whose skin had been burnt to a darker color. (Hölscher 1937; Thompson 1989; Desanges 1993).
Brent D. Shaw, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 532
quote:The name ‘Ethiopia’ was applied by the Greeks to any region in the far south of Africa. The Greek word aithops is related to the word aithos, which means ‘burning heat’, thus the people of ‘Aithiopia’ were described as ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black. An ethnic connotation is already found in Homer (Od. 2.22).
quote:Be grateful, you wretch, and offer your wife yourself whatever she has To take, since if she had chosen to let vigorous boys vex and stretch Her belly, you might have been father to an Ethiopian! Your dark heir, Barely visible at dawn, would soon be seen everywhere in the will.
Juvenal, Satire VI 592-660
quote:Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest". [59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians".
quote:The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
quote:As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
quote:This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun.” There is also visual evidence for black slaves in Roman antiquity, including the mosaics at Piazza Armerina.
Kyle Harper, Slavery in the late roman World AD 275-425, pp. 88
All you did cite sources where a modern (biased) scholars simply projects their bias onto Herodotus. Yes Herodotus like all Greeks of his day noted a difference in color and features between peoples of North Africa and those further south, but since when does that translate into a belief in racial difference?! You do realize that the Greeks also noted such differences among themselves and other Europeans!-- noting that they are darker and differ in features from Europeans to their north. Unless you can provide me ancient Greek sources emphatically stating Libyans are of a different race completely from Aethiopians you are just sh*t out your Neander cis-Atlas ass.
And the Greeks used "Aethiops" for "burnt face" but the word itself is not originally Greek but a foreign word. I just told you that the first application was not to Africans at all but peoples in Asia like Memnon and Andromeda, so stop with the dishonest desperation!
quote:So there is no ambiguity when it comes to "aethiops". Now for ancient levantines :
[QUOTE] Second, an allele at rs1426654 in the SLC24A5 gene which is one of the most important determinants of light pigmentation in West Eurasians41 is fixed for the derived allele (A) in the Levant_ChL population suggesting that a light skinned phenotype may have been common in this population, although any inferences about skin pigmentation based on allele frequencies observed at a single site need to be viewed with caution42.
quote:"We highlight three findings of interest. First, an allele (G) at rs12913832 near the OCA2 gene, with a proven association to blue eye color in individuals of European descent40, has an estimated alternative allele frequency of 49% in the Levant_ChL population, suggesting that the blue-eyed phenotype was common in the Levant_ChL.
quote:The closest populations to these bronze age levantines are modern levantines:
No argument from me on that!
quote:Such depictions are found in later periods, I don't see what's surprising about it. Greeks and later romans often depicted sudanese/kushites they encounter in Egypt or the in the persian army (your own quotes mention nubian mercenaries):
Are you as illiterate as you are dumb? The sources describe depictions from BRONZE AGE Aegean both Minoan and Mycenaean depictions! Plus, Sudanese/Kushites are STILL North Africans closely related to Egyptians per the sources you cited! LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ The same kylax with one side depicting Herakles and the other King Busiris of Egypt!
quote:but overall they were rare and seen as "exotic" :
quote: it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.
Yes but 'black' African included Egyptians! and Maure of the Maghreb! LOL
quote:We see the same behaviour with the north african emperor septimius severus :
quote:"After inspecting the wall near the rampart in Britain… just as he [Severus] was wondering what omen would present itself, an Ethiopian from a military unit, who was famous among buffoons and always a notable joker, met him with a garland of cypress. And when Severus in a rage ordered that the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour and the ominous nature of the garland, [the Ethiopian] by way of jest cried, it is said, “You have been all things, you have conquered all things, now, O conqueror, be a god.” "
(Historia Augusta, ‘Septimius Severus’, 22.4-5)
You idiot! It wasn't the man's skin color alone as he was part of Ethiopian unit! It was because cypress was symbolic of death and the Egyptian god Ausar (Osiris) was a black mane! So a black man wearing cypress in North African superstition is an omen of death and especially by the words of the soldier which is one of annointment of a divine ruler!
quote:That's what you said : "The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping."
that's what the graph showed :
So I don't know why you talk as if Nubians/Ethiopians are Sub-Saharans!!
quote:Therefore kulubnarti are representative and since when are metric studies/works irrelevant ? Because they don't support your claims ?
LOL Kulubnarti are NOT Meroites or Kermans that are represented in the sources you cited, nitwit! They are from the very late Christian Period. Second, Metric data is only useful for establishing how a population generally looked like morphologically NOT for establishing genetic relations, the latter is only indicated by nonmetric data!
Speaking of which, nonmetric data has already shown that Egypto-Nubians are NOT closely related to Levantines as you claim!
Berry & Berry (1972) nonmetric crania study: Egyptian samples are not very distinct from the Nubian sample from Jebel Moya. They are much more distinct from the Ashanti series (here included as an assumedly typical negroid population), and the Near Eastern series from Palestine (Lachish) and Turkey (Figure 3).
And to show you how hetergeneous the Levantine population is, we have from Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.
and..
Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.
So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:
^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.
I don't want to come to Antalas's defense at all. But, IIRC, Swenet did claim a few years ago that, since many Saharan Berber groups do have substantial West/Central African-related mtDNA lineages combined with Maghrebi Y-DNA lineages like E-M183, their phenotypes may not necessarily be all inherited from the earliest Berber-speakers either. IIRC, his argument was to the effect that they were descended from coastal North African Berbers who ventured into the Sahara and afterward absorbed ancestry from more southerly Africans.
Keep in mind, the common Maghrebi Y-DNA lineage E-M183 appears to have undergone a bottleneck around the time of the Punic wars. This says to me that a lot of the people you see in Northwest African countries today are descended from citizens of the coastal Phoenician colonies who survived the destruction of Carthage and then expanded throughout the region. I believe the trans-Saharan trade, facilitated by the introduction of the dromedary camel, might have brought a lot of these lighter-skinned, mixed-origin Northwest Africans into areas that were formerly the province of darker-skinned locals.
The Carthaginian explorer Hanno the Navigator mentions "hostile Aethiopians" living in the North African mountains upstream of the Lixos river (either the Draa or Loukkos in Morocco) in the sixth century BC. We also have Procopius of Caesarea in 550 AD describing both "black- [or dark-?]skinned" Mauretanii coexisting with other people who were "white in body and very fair-haired" in the region. Northwest Africans in classical antiquity seem to have been no less phenotypically diverse, and maybe even moreso, than they are today.
posted
^ You are correct. The funny thing is that Maghrebis show more Sub-Saharan autosomal signals than Northeast Africans, yet he insists dark skin among Maghrebis is somehow uncommon except among some slave descendants, while acknowledging that dark/black skin IS more common among Egyptians. But then he turns around and says ancient Egyptians didn't have dark skin!
He says dark skin in Egypt is due to Nubian influence yet his own sources show Nubians are the populations closest in relation to Egyptians! He then says ancient Egyptians were light-skinned EEF descendants from the Levant even though non-metrics show they are not closely related to (most) Levantines save the Natufians.
The guy is obviously confused about the ancestry of his own people let alone those of Egypt!
He is like those negrophobic southern Europeans who are in denial of their black-African ancestry, but since he hails from North Africa it is even worse!
He reminds me of some elite Indians who bought into the theory of fair-skinned 'Aryans' of North India and dark/black 'Dravidians' of the south, even though black types are indigenous to the north as well! Which reminds me.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I never said Egyptians are representative of all North Africans, but YOU seem to insinuate Maghrebis are! Also, this very thread is about a Northeast African-- Egyptian or possible Nubian! You're the one who keeps bringing up Maghrebis!
You made comments on my people and my look + maghrebis are present in most of north africa (delta egyptians also don't look significantly different)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, this thread is not about Maghrebis. I already cited sources showing that Guanches are not the only Canarians and that there are darker skinned ('black') Canarians also who were the first victims of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.
I'm not even going to go into the history of Morocco whose namesake Moor means 'black'. If you want to discuss that, there are more than plenty of threads in the archives where that issue was already addressed.
XD why are you so dishonest like this ?? "Guanche" in these papers is used for the all the pre-european canarians that's why their samples came from el hierro, tenerife, different parts of gran canaria, etc moreover your only argument was a creole population "natives of fernandino po" who were called "guanche" by an english man centuries after guanches disappeared lol All genetic, biometric, iconographic datas show them to be like modern north africans.
"Morocco" comes from marrakech (which was at some point the capital of morocco) and the latter comes from the berber "Amur n'Akush" which means "land of god" Moreover "moor" doesn't mean "black", there are multiple explanation for it :
quote:The people are called by Greek authors the Maurousioi, and Mauri by the Romans who, according to Strabo, XVII, 3, 2, took over the real ethnonym. There has been a long-standing debate about the origin of the name; some people think that it comes from the name of the Aures, which is preceded by a prefix (M): the Moors would be "the people of the mountain.
Jean-Marie Lassčre, Africa, quasi Roma, pp. 47
quote:According to Bochart, the Moors, or rather Mauharin, were so called because they were the furthest west, that is to say the most western. Vivien de St-Martin adds in this respect that the merchants of Tyre and Carthage, the first to frequent the extreme shores of the Mediterranean and to found settlements there, referred to the westerners, the people of the sunset, the aborigines of the Atlas, by the name of Maouharia. In the mouth of the Greeks, then the Romans, this name softened changed into Moor and with the Punic suffix into Mauritania.
The only information I found for "black" is based on the greek word "mavros" : "From Ancient Greek μαυρός (maurós), μαῦρος (maűros, “dark”)."
and it would make sense since north africans are obviously darker than greeks :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.
Where is your proof that Didyme was not Egyptian?? I already showed you proof that Tiye was black not only based on her painted bust but other depictions showing her true dark color and NOT the yellow skin convention. King Tut was NOT "tanned" as not only was he shown with a reddish brown convention on his tomb murals but his painted bust shows him with chocolate dark complexion. Funny how you nobody says his bust or his throne image turned dark with "age"!
LOL Your arguments are totally bankrupt and without substantiation, like all Neandernuts!
hahaha I'm really baffled by the level of either ignorance or dishonesty ! Saharan berbers do not even make 1% of berbers and they are probably the most racist berbers. They have a whole system of caste and practiced slavery since ancient times :
quote: However, we must note that the Tuaregs use other words to name (always with contempt) the Blacks located south of the Sahara: ésedîf (plur. isédîfen) designates a Black generally in conjunction with aounnan (plur. iounnanen) speaking a Sudanese language: taounant (Songhai language, see J. Clauzel, 1962, for more details and Foucauld, Dict. touareg-français III, p. 1510) or etîfen (plur. itîfenen), ébenher, éhati (plur. ihatan), a black person who speaks neither Arabic nor Berber, while the word akli (plur. iklân) designates the enslaved slave, bella the slave living freely and iderfan, ighawellan, the freedmen."
quote:[...] iklan - the word designated the captives and black slaves raided among the sedentary populations of Chad and the Sudan. No one can say enough about the haughtiness of the Tuareg chiefs, their conviction of being a superior race, their sectarianism. It cannot be said enough that their society is deeply unequal and iniquitous. The slave system has been in force in this immense and desolate region since antiquity. [...] "The group of blacksmiths (inhadan), notes Pierre Boilley, was dedicated to industrial work. Attached to a tawset (tribe based on lineage kinship), they were at its service, but were considered neither captives nor dependents. Their status, ambiguous, resembles a caste. Partially untouchable and sometimes despised, they were nevertheless frightened by the magical side of their industry, and everyone was obliged to protect them or at least not to attack them on pain of losing their honor (...) At the bottom of the social ladder, the servants or captives (iklan) were both permanent servants attached to the camp (tent captives), and shepherds, living alone with the herds (dune captives). It should be noted that the servants were, it seems, not very numerous among the Kel Adagh (of Mali), having had to suffer numerous rezzous" [...] Even the freedmen (ederef) continue to suffer the ostracism of the lords. In his Tuareg-French dictionary (1910-1916), Father Charles de Foucauld, however benevolent towards the Tuareg culture, frankly underlines that: "Presently, throughout the Algerian, Moroccan, and Tripolitan Sahara, from the day on which a slave (that is, a Negro, since there are now no other slaves there but Negroes) is freed, he takes the name of hartani, belongs to the class of hartani, and is in every respect considered one of them; the population of hartani thus continually receives new additions of Negro blood. The hartani are free, but they form the lowest class among the free" (vol. II, p.632)."
Malek Chebel, L'esclavage en terre d'islam, p.198-199
The tuareg dialect also has SSA influences :
quote:From the critical examination of the prehistoric data and the (socio)linguistic parameters, one draws, if not a demonstration, at least the strong feeling that there is no decisive argument in favor of a global external origin - Near East or East African - of the Berbers and/or their language. On the contrary, all the evidence points to a great stability and continuity of settlement and language in their current area of extension, whose boundaries have changed little over the millennia. The only well-established population movement is the progressive extension towards the south (Sahara and Sahel), which began in the fourth millennium BC. This data incidentally supports our hypothesis that Tuareg is in some respects an evolved "peripheral" form of Berber, having undergone the influence of negro-African substrates/adstrates.
Genetically they show important amount of west african ancestry compared to other berbers :
and yet these two examples didn't even look that dark to me.
Here "noble" tuareg chiefs :
so why do you think there is such a diversity among them ? Because of white slaves being sent to the sahara ? XD
White skin among berbers was already there 6000 years ago :
quote:IAM samples contain ancestral alleles for pigmentation-associated variants present in SLC24A5 (rs1426654), SLC45A2 (rs16891982), and OCA2 (rs1800401 and 12913832) genes. On the other hand, KEB individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 11).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Quit projecting, Neandernut! The only one dishonest is YOU as I already busted your lyingass multiple times on multiple threads in this blog! If I am dishonest then, prove it and bust me!
All you did cite sources where a modern (biased) scholars simply projects their bias onto Herodotus. Yes Herodotus like all Greeks of his day noted a difference in color and features between peoples of North Africa and those further south, but since when does that translate into a belief in racial difference?! You do realize that the Greeks also noted such differences among themselves and other Europeans!-- noting that they are darker and differ in features from Europeans to their north. Unless you can provide me ancient Greek sources emphatically stating Libyans are of a different race completely from Aethiopians you are just sh*t out your Neander cis-Atlas ass.
And the Greeks used "Aethiops" for "burnt face" but the word itself is not originally Greek but a foreign word. I just told you that the first application was not to Africans at all but peoples in Asia like Memnon and Andromeda, so stop with the dishonest desperation!
So you're telling us,greek authors were biased and It doesn't matter if "aethiopian" was originally used for chinese or amazonians, what matters is that it was used to designate black skinned populations and libyans/egyptians were not viewed as such.
I'm well aware greeks viewed themselves as different than their northern neighbours but that's still the case today and it's the case today in Africa where northern africans are lighter than sub-saharan africans. You have no argument against the use of "aethiops" thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: No argument from me on that!
and yet you implied levantines were black...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Are you as illiterate as you are dumb? The sources describe depictions from BRONZE AGE Aegean both Minoan and Mycenaean depictions! Plus, Sudanese/Kushites are STILL North Africans closely related to Egyptians per the sources you cited! LOL [/QB]
So you're assuming that during the bronze age, minoans wouldn't have been able to meet nubians in egypt ? Weren't nubian mercenaries already used during the bronze age ? Are you implying that dinka looking people lived in coastal north africa ? See how ridiculous you statements sound ? Thanks.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^ The same kylax with one side depicting Herakles and the other King Busiris of Egypt!
It wasn't a realistic depiction simply a way to emphasize the "otherness" :
quote:In the fifth century, as foreign costume became more popular, generally, Athenian pot painters made conscious departures from visual tradition and what they believed to be accurate traits of Egyptian pharaohs and priests. If dress is a visual marker of ethnicity, then the Bousiris of Figure 24.3 is no longer an ethnic Egyptian—though he clearly is not a Persian, either. This paradox is usually reconciled as Otherness expressed broadly, Egyptian as barbarian and Herakles as Greek. As Bousiris lost his ethnic specificity to the Great King, the once humorous myth became a metaphor for the conflict with Persia (on symbol and allegory in antiquity, see, recently, Smith 2011).
Jeremy Mcinerney, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 361
You're literally contradicting yourself : baladi = natives but now ancient egyptians looked like dinka people ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes but 'black' African included Egyptians! and Maure of the Maghreb! LOL
huh...are you at least aware north africans used to be part of the roman empire ? Were massively present in the roman army and political sphere ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You idiot! It wasn't the man's skin color alone as he was part of Ethiopian unit! It was because cypress was symbolic of death and the Egyptian god Ausar (Osiris) was a black mane! So a black man wearing cypress in North African superstition is an omen of death and especially by the words of the soldier which is one of annointment of a divine ruler!
I can't believe what I read
there was literally no "ethiopian unit" wtf and this can't be more explicit : "the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour "
Septimius severus was not egyptian nor culturally egyptian. Cypress wasn't symbolic of death in NW africa and and cypress isn't "black" so why does he talk about "ominious color" ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL Kulubnarti are NOT Meroites or Kermans that are represented in the sources you cited, nitwit! They are from the very late Christian Period. Second, Metric data is only useful for establishing how a population generally looked like morphologically NOT for establishing genetic relations, the latter is only indicated by nonmetric data!
Speaking of which, nonmetric data has already shown that Egypto-Nubians are NOT closely related to Levantines as you claim!
Berry & Berry (1972) nonmetric crania study: Egyptian samples are not very distinct from the Nubian sample from Jebel Moya. They are much more distinct from the Ashanti series (here included as an assumedly typical negroid population), and the Near Eastern series from Palestine (Lachish) and Turkey (Figure 3).
And to show you how hetergeneous the Levantine population is, we have from Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.
and..
Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.
So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:
^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant! [/QB]
Metric datas are totally usefull and meaningfull that's why they are used by almost every forensic study for establishing morphological relations between populations. You do not accept them because they simply don't support your narrative. I already debunked your "levantines wuz africans" we have enough samples from southern levant and they all plot with modern levantines and had SNPs for light skin cherrypicking and using photoshopped pics won't help you.
Three libyan chiefs :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: I can't believe what I read
Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup.
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Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup. [/QB]
hahaha thanks for the info
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
^ Look North African Neandernut, I don't have the time to debate you on the historical populations of the Maghreb and what they look like because that issue has been covered too many times in this forum. If you want to rehash it, you may do so in one of those past threads. We know the meaning of the word Moor is associated with dark/black skin color which is why the most famous `black' saint in Christendom was called Saint Maurice.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup.
hahaha thanks for the info [/QB]
Which means Coppola like many Italians have African (black) ancestry. Some even have Benin HBS
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Look North African Neandernut, I don't have the time to debate you on the historical populations of the Maghreb and what they look like because that issue has been covered too many times in this forum. If you want to rehash it, you may do so in one of those past threads. We know the meaning of the word Moor is associated with dark/black skin color which is why the most famous black black saint in Christendom was called Saint Maurice.
I believe the term originally referred to the Mauri people of the area the Romans called Mauretania, but then became synonymous with the color "black" in European discourse sometime during the Middle Ages (later on it would be applied to Muslims of any color). Hence why modern Greek uses mauros to mean "black" instead of the ancient melas.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:
^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant!
We actually have possible aDNA evidence for Bronze Age Canaanites (or Phoenicians) having darker skin than modern inhabitants of the region.
quote:These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population. In addition, SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2, but with Sidon_BA probably having darker skin than Lebanese today from variants in SLC45A2 resulting in darker pigmentation (Table S2).
Makes you wonder about other Bronze Age populations in the region, even some of the ones further from Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Look North African Neandernut, I don't have the time to debate you on the historical populations of the Maghreb and what they look like because that issue has been covered too many times in this forum. If you want to rehash it, you may do so in one of those past threads. We know the meaning of the word Moor is associated with dark/black skin color which is why the most famous black black saint in Christendom was called Saint Maurice.
I believe the term originally referred to the Mauri people of the area the Romans called Mauretania, but then became synonymous with the color "black" in European discourse sometime during the Middle Ages (later on it would be applied to Muslims of any color). Hence why modern Greek uses mauros to mean "black" instead of the ancient melas.
Yes it went through a semantic evolution for example during the late antiquity it was synonymous of north africans who lived outside the borders of the Empire and were defined by the structure of the gentes during the Medieval era it got an even more broad definition which designated all muslims from Africa and Al andalus (in some cases even turks and other people from the middle east) that's why when spaniards met the muslim community of the philiphines they called them "moros" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_people)
So a berber, a west african, a saqaliba (east european slave) and sometimes arabs/levantines/turks could have been described as "moro"
see :
quote:"Moor" and "blackamoor" are two english words that were highly influenced by Iberian and Italian designations of Northern African peoples. Mouro (portuguese) and moro (Castilian, Italian) derived from the Latin maurus, an inhabitant of Mauretania, the Roman designation for the region of Maghreb. The lengthy duration of the iberian reconquista, the reconquest of Muslim territories by local Christian Iberia and northern Europe contributed to the dissemination of the word in the Middle Ages, where "Moor" remained a popular descriptor for medieval Berber and Arab Muslim conquerors of the Iberian peninsula and Sicily. The accounts of the late medieval Portuguese travellers, explorers, and merchants often used "Moor" for Muslim, although distinctions remained: despite such terms as "Arabian Moors" or "Turkish Moors", both were usually described as mouros brancos ("white moors"), while Berber and sub-saharan muslims were frequently distinguished between mouros da terra (Portuguese for "moors from the land") or mouros negros (black moors). [...] This complex relation between ethnicity, geography and religion informed the evolution of "blackamoor", often used alongside region-inflected words like "Niger" or "Ethiop". English grammars and dictionaries of the time made similar associations: "a black more, or a man of Ethiope"; The Negro[sic], which we call the Black-mores.
Keywords of Identity, Race, and Human Mobility in Early Modern England
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: By the way... These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population. In addition, SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2, but with Sidon_BA probably having darker skin than Lebanese today from variants in SLC45A2 resulting in darker pigmentation (Table S2).Makes you wonder about other Bronze Age populations in the region, even some of the ones further from Africa.
Your quote says : "SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2"
so probably a similar population to the modern ones with here and there some dark skinned individuals like for example mia khalifa or azmi bishara :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
^ Your cherry picked examples of tanned or olive skinned people has no bearing on the term Moor. The meaning of 'Moor' may have changed into 'Muslim', but that does not change its original meaning or rather that used by the Romans and later Byzantines! Moor has initially meant BLACK!
This is why all throughout Roman times through the Medieval period 'Moor' referred to a black person.
The most famous black Christians saint is St. Maurius a.k.a. St. Maurice (circa 250 A.D.). He was a Christian soldier from Thebes Upper Egypt who was martyred for his faith. Maurice was not his actual name but a nickname given by the Romans for his skin color.
Medieval depictions of Maurice:
^ The bottom one is a depiction from Germany. Surprising the Germans of all people would depict an Egyptian man in such a blatant stereotypical "Sub-Saharan" way, but oh well.
Also in Medieval times were legends of black knights from Africa such as Sir Morien who was one of the Knights of the Round Table of Arthurian legend.
Later on, during or after the trans-Atlantic slave trade, one of the Popes (Tukuler remind me again) even made a decree that people should stop using the word "negro" for a black person and instead use the alternative word moro as the former was considered derogative since it refers generally to a black colored object.
Speaking of Spaniards..
The Maghrebi moron brought up the Filipino Moros as an example of the term not being affiliated with black people...
Au contraire!
Moroland was the old Spanish term for the southern most islands of the Philippines especially the island of Mindanao.
The first Spanish settlements in Mindanao occurred in the northeastern area of Kalaga which is home to one of the largest population of Negritos in the Philippines, that being the Mamanwa people! In fact many Filipinos of Mindanao have mixed Negrito ancestry to the point that Mindanaoans are stereotyped as being darker than the average Filipino.
http://www.savageandsoldier.com/articles/asia/Moro.html The Spaniards had learned this the hard way. It was, in fact, the early Spaniards who gave them the name Moro, for "Moor" because of their intense Islamic faith. But culturally the Moros were Malays mixed with the blood of negro slaves, Filipino tribal hillmen, Chinese, and Dyak pirates the result was a unique and ferociously independent people.
The Spanish conquest and conversion of the Mamanwa was relatively easy as they were only nominally Muslim and not as well militarily organized, but the Sultanates of the southwest was a different matter resulting in the Spanish-Moro wars. By the way, the Mamanwa after their conquest and Christianization became known as the Kongking derived from the Spanish conquista (conquered) and became the inspiration for the background of the story King Kong and his home of Skull Island.
Even in Hispanic American culture like in Cuba an old nickname for frijoles negros y arroz blanco (black beans and white rice) is moros y cristianos (Moors and Christians).
So there is no escaping this unassailable fact.
This brings us back to the original topic which is Didyme.
The Ptolemaic authors blatantly describe her as black which later Roman authors would call maure. She is described as a native of the country of Egypt and NOT Ethiopian. But even if we are to go by your assertion that she was Ethiopian i.e. a Nubian from Kush/Meroe how does that negate the fact that such people are fellow North Africans related to Egyptians per the sources you cite!
And this is why you are done like last week's left overs.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Your cherry picked examples of tanned or olive skinned people has no bearing on the term Moor. The meaning of 'Moor' may have changed into 'Muslim', but that does not change its original meaning or rather that used by the Romans and later Byzantines! Moor has initially meant BLACK!
This is why all throughout Roman times through the Medieval period 'Moor' referred to a black person.
The most famous black Christians saint is St. Maurius a.k.a. St. Maurice (circa 250 A.D.). He was a Christian soldier from Thebes Upper Egypt who was martyred for his faith. Maurice was not his actual name but a nickname given by the Romans for his skin color.
Medieval depictions of Maurice:
^ The bottom one is a depiction from Germany. Surprising the Germans of all people would depict an Egyptian man in such a blatant stereotypical "Sub-Saharan" way, but oh well.
Also in Medieval times were legends of black knights from Africa such as Sir Morien who was one of the Knights of the Round Table of Arthurian legend.
Later on, during or after the trans-Atlantic slave trade, one of the Popes (Tukuler remind me again) even made a decree that people should stop using the word "negro" for a black person and instead use the alternative word moro as the former was considered derogative since it refers generally to a black colored object.
Speaking of Spaniards..
The Maghrebi moron brought up the Filipino Moros as an example of the term not being affiliated with black people...
Au contraire!
Moroland was the old Spanish term for the southern most islands of the Philippines especially the island of Mindanao.
The first Spanish settlements in Mindanao occurred in the northeastern area of Kalaga which is home to one of the largest population of Negritos in the Philippines, that being the Mamanwa people! In fact many Filipinos of Mindanao have mixed Negrito ancestry to the point that Mindanaoans are stereotyped as being darker than the average Filipino.
http://www.savageandsoldier.com/articles/asia/Moro.html The Spaniards had learned this the hard way. It was, in fact, the early Spaniards who gave them the name Moro, for "Moor" because of their intense Islamic faith. But culturally the Moros were Malays mixed with the blood of negro slaves, Filipino tribal hillmen, Chinese, and Dyak pirates the result was a unique and ferociously independent people.
The Spanish conquest and conversion of the Mamanwa was relatively easy as they were only nominally Muslim and not as well militarily organized, but the Sultanates of the southwest was a different matter resulting in the Spanish-Moro wars. By the way, the Mamanwa after their conquest and Christianization became known as the Kongking derived from the Spanish conquista (conquered) and became the inspiration for the background of the story King Kong and his home of Skull Island.
Even in Hispanic American culture like in Cuba an old nickname for frijoles negros y arroz blanco (black beans and white rice) is moros y cristianos (Moors and Christians).
So there is no escaping this unassailable fact.
This brings us back to the original topic which is Didyme.
The Ptolemaic authors blatantly describe her as black which later Roman authors would call maure. She is described as a native of the country of Egypt and NOT Ethiopian. But even if we are to go by your assertion that she was Ethiopian i.e. a Nubian from Kush/Meroe how does that negate the fact that such people are fellow North Africans related to Egyptians per the sources you cite!
And this is why you are done like last week's left overs.
The Spanish called them Moro because they were muslim and many were black and not "Aetas". That is why they used term "Moro" because it is similar to the term Moor. And just like in Spain the term also was extended to all Muslim groups in the Philipines regardless of skin color.
quote: It is claimed that in the sixteenth century, European colonial powers such as Portugal and Spain wanted to conquer Southeast Asia in order to, first, control the spice trade which was then driving the world economy; and second, in the words of the Portuguese Viceroy, to “[cast] the Moors out of this country [Malacca], and [quench] the fire of this sect of (Muhammad) so that it may never burst out again hereafter.” Armed encounters with the Muslims and military expeditions to Mindanao and Borneo occurred almost as soon as the Spaniards settled in the Islands; historian Cesar Adib Majul charted six stages of the so-called Moro Wars that took place from the mid-1500s to the late 1800s.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The Spanish called them Moro because they were Muslim and many were black and not "Aetas". That is why they used term "Moro" because it is similar to the term Moor. And just like in Spain the term also was extended to all Muslim groups in the Philipines regardless of skin color.
Yes that was point. They were called 'Moro' because they were Muslim and black. Who said anything about "Aeta"? The Aeta are the black aborigines of Luzon and other northern islands, 'Moroland' or Mindinao was the homeland of the Mamanwa aborigines who've intermixed with other tribes.
But getting back to the topic of this thread, here is a copy of Snowden's work Asclepiades' Didyme
Again, Snowden tries to reconcile the modern racial classification of "negroid" with the ancient Greco-Roman generic terms for 'black'. There is no evidence that Didyme was 'Ethiopian' that is Nubian and in fact her very name was Egyptian. It all agrees with Greco-Roman descriptions of Egyptian natives as melanchroe or 'black'.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I'm aware of the debate surrounding Cleo's heritage and how she may or may not have looked.
Nonetheless, I'd like to show a contemporary Roman painting of Cleopatra dressed in Greco-Roman garb rather than white and Egyptian attire.
Besides, Macedonian Greeks appear to be less "Mediterranean" in appearance than Athenians, for example. They seem to be on the fairer side in their own ancient artworks. Posts: 102 | From: private | Registered: Jul 2021
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Could you please tell me how I can move my reply to this thread, then? Can the moderator help me out?
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posted
You could have the same post in both places, just repeat it in that other thread Or if you want it there and not here, just copy and paste it to the other thread, then after that I'm not sure if you've been using the edit already. > The white paper and pencil icon on the upper right of your post here. Just delete the content and write "please delete", the mod will come around and delete it later
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Of course by your very logic according to the dendogram, Sub-Saharans are intermediate between Western Eurasians like Turks, Greeks, and Scandinavians on one on branch but East Asians like Evenks and Eskimos on another!
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