posted                         

What? You think you talking to a clueless whiteboy?

Let me remind you I'm a redblack person (red nigger)
2nd generation fully born and raised in the US of A.
I have conversations and black experiences you never
can have. Neither you nor Brandon are any part African
or black. Fuhget it. No Asian or European can school me
on American racial politics or blackness just as no non-
Pinoy canput you in check over Filipino American realities.

I made clear what you refuse to accept. Actual personal
experiences with real live Med & Balkan women and their
WHITE BREASTS W/BRIGHT BLUE VEINS.
You just repost failing imgs w/o white breasts
beaming through white 'sheer' fabric as Lucan's
translator wrote on that pg img posted earlier.

Why keep racking up logical fallacies as if
stringing out enough zeros will equal a one?
Not Boolean.
Illogical, irrational, unscientific, insupportable.

Plus, outside imagination, no one's shown even
one reference written by African blacks of any
era of BEAMINGLY WHITE SHINY BREASTS. No
reply has followed my lead on that AE poem,
that'd be Egyptology.




Pass as white?

You mean white males (not just slave holders) who
fucked their own daughters and grandaughters again and
again then passing all "outcomes" onto the baby mother's
slave race is valid because the slaves had not the power to
protest, proclaim, and effect "Ah ahn, them's yo peoples!",
except to themselves.

But Ole Missy and Lillie-belle's babies by the slave
son, or even better, the grandson of her husband,
or his siblings, or her father in law, is quietly kept
part of the "'unmiscegenated' pure white race" since
she dare not expose she was fucking around. So, in
but a single generation that Africa mtDNA gets wiped
out, yet half the African autosomes pass along anyway.
This is why a pure lillie-yte from negrophobe Mormon
Utah Euro-American CEU sample set is an impossible lie
as shown here.


Actually black, just passing for white?

A total disregard of what their autosome profile
and genomic ADMIXTURE will undoubtedly reveal.
IE a European person with signs of African admixture.
In other words a white person in all likelihood matching
any (N)W Euro white person of unknown or hidden Afr blk ancestry
or matching North Med Euro white persons w/o recent Afr parentage.


Sociological "blacks" cannot stand in for
anthropological blacks in scientific study.

Some ppl agree a person with only 1 of 8 African gg-parents is a black?
Do you support this ploy designed to bolster white purity by shifting
even a person as little as 1 of 16 actual African great great grand
parents onto the black race?

I don't.


Abraham Hannibal's generational descendants, the
last not white just passing per American One Drop


Do no skim read as w/t Lucan. Please read carefully for retentive comprehension.




Only in America certainly not in Africa or elsewhere in yte world
whether they had African black slaves or not. Take Latin America
where accurate if poorly labelled terms clearly delineate a plethora
of ranges from African black to European white filled in by mixtures
of people recognized in like up to 32 categories (more if indigenous
American reds and their mixtures are included).

Shih, down in Jamaica they called Bob Marley, with
his perfectly negro phenotype mother, WHITE BOY. A
true mulatta has parents who themselves are "pure"
not one or both who are already highly miscegenated.


Reminder, the region of Cleo's paternal origin was
admixed with certain elements of 'Fulani' typical
genes. She could have micro-miniscule "black"
blood from that reality. But that includes
the first and every Ptolemy regardless of
sister-different-mother Arsinoe.


Something else you can never know or experience.
Walking to North Philly from Downtown one day on
5th St., I ran into a blk skinned man and his yte
skinned wife and their children. At the time I too
foolishly accepted that yte supremist One Drop
yte racial purity ruse.

Well though like me he was making the world
a darker place to live, that man told me:
"You see our kids? They not black. They not
white. They they own."

Hah, hah!

Hey, Uncle Sam! Up yours and your whack definitions
based on a slavery and its American social dynamics
you still refuse to come to terms with while they
continue polarizing the nation you mascot!


Back to Djehuti, you haven't posted anything in
depth about the Filipino sociology I asked of
you but you wanna school me on my race and the
supra-culture that surrounds my 'sub'-culture.
Better check yourself now before you fall into
the educating-benighted-natives syndrome of some
non-blx contributing to black related ES themes.
Like a Big 8 Afr hist professor who after a Nigerian
told our class about Bini, not Benin, history blurted
out: "Aw, that's what the British taught you". Such
privileged arrogance to know more about someones
than those someones do.


=-=-=-=


Now I've asked for the original of the Lucan quote
to vet the words white shiny but no one wants that
they just want a (mixed)black Cleo or bust.

Brandon doesn't trust Lucan because it goes against his
illustrated chocolate fantasies where "for fucks sake"
even Jewish TaMazight Dahya Kahena high up in the Djur Djura
fastholds right next to the Mediterranean Sea comes out

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=5#000223

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=3#000139

a provocatively posed spear chucker with the plump
negress rump of white sexual dreamland which is fine
for non factual historic illustrations but is a lie
distorting my African Jewish heritage.

I'm afraid Brandon's wailing against Lucan's penned description amounts to
no more than protecting and projecting this Gladys Knight looking 90% negress

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010376#000026

as the at least 50% Hellene Macedonian queen over Egypt
the same as he proposed Frank Zappa's pic on his Sheikh
Yerbouti album cover as the true authentic Hebrew type
no matter the Lachish portraiture reveal nothing close
to FZ or other modern day French Lebanese admixtures.


And I'd hire Brandon in a flash for scenic illustrations
of a book for young adults on African peoples, cultures,
and civilisations, provided he'd heed authenticity over
his own "creative license."


BACK TO THE EGYPTOLOGY
Meanwhile I continue waiting for Brandon to post
contemporaneous descriptions of Cleo. There was
only one author naming her who actually lived
when she did. Why are historians etc., only
using his few lines as all we reliably know
about her? Those lines don't tell us much
anything biographical more so than the
authors negative feelings about Cleo.


Lucan's good ethnology (again)

quote:

---

There were also a swarm of attendants, a host

of servants to the multitude, differing in age

and cast of skin, some with the dark hair of

Libya, some so tawny that Caesar declared

he had never seen hair as red on the Rhine;


some had black skin, woolly heads, the hair

receding from the brow, and there were those

wretched effeminate lads, who had lost their

manhood to the knife: ranked opposite older

youths whose cheeks showed barely any down.


There, kings, and Caesar, greater than they, were

seated. There too was Cleopatra, not content with

a crown of her own, or her brother for a husband,

her baleful beauty inordinately painted, covered

with Red Sea pearls, a fortune in her hair and

around her neck, weighed down with jewellery.

Her snowy breasts gleamed through the Sidonian

stuff, threads wound tight on the Seres’ shuttles,

that Egyptian needle-workers loosen and extend

drawing out the silk. On snowy tusks they set

round citrus-wood tables cut in Moorish forests,

such as Caesar never saw even on capturing Juba.

What a mad blind rage for display, revealing her

wealth to a general fresh from civil war, stirring

the mind of an armed guest!

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

What? You think you talking to a clueless whiteboy?

Let me remind you I'm a redblack person (red nigger)
2nd generation fully born and raised in the US of A.
I have conversations and black experiences you never
can have. Neither you nor Brandon are any part African
or black. Fuhget it. No Asian or European can school me
on American racial politics or blackness just as no non-
Pinoy canput you in check over Filipino American realities.

---

quote:

---

I made clear what you refuse to accept. Actual personal
experiences with real live Med & Balkan women and their
WHITE BREASTS W/BRIGHT BLUE VEINS.
You just repost failing imgs w/o white breasts
beaming through white 'sheer' fabric as Lucan's
translator wrote on that pg img posted earlier.[/img]
I have seen plenty of Mediterranean women especially from the Balkans who have their own community in Atlanta, and yes many of them can be quite pale in complexion. I am reminded of Greek descriptions of their own women who are sequestered indoors most of their lives and have pale complexions. Can I find a picture of such a woman in a white dress with her white breasts highlighted through the fabric? Unfortunately, I'm not as skilled in image searches as Lioness.

quote:

---

[qb]Why keep racking up logical fallacies as if
stringing out enough zeros will equal a one?
Not Boolean.
Illogical, irrational, unscientific, insupportable.

Plus, outside imagination, no one's shown even
one reference written by African blacks of any
era of BEAMINGLY WHITE SHINY BREASTS. No
reply has followed my lead on that AE poem,
that'd be Egyptology.

---

Of course I never said these were blacks proper but people of mixed ancestry.

quote:

---

Pass as white?

You mean white males (not just slave holders) who
fucked their own daughters and grandaughters again and
again then passing all "outcomes" onto the baby mother's
slave race is valid because the slaves had not the power to
protest, proclaim, and effect "Ah ahn, them's yo peoples!",
except to themselves.

---

WTF kind of Craster from Game of Thrones mess is this?!! Not to discount such situations happening on slave plantations here in America but from what I've read even most racist Planters aren't as depraved although perhaps a few were!

quote:

---

[But Ole Missy and Lillie-belle's babies by the slave
son, or even better, the grandson of her husband,
or his siblings, or her father in law, is quietly kept
part of the "'unmiscegenated' pure white race" since
she dare not expose she was fucking around. So, in
but a single generation that Africa mtDNA gets wiped
out, yet half the African autosomes pass along anyway.
This is why a pure lillie-yte from negrophobe Mormon
Utah Euro-American CEU sample set is an impossible lie
as shown here.


Actually black, just passing for white?

A total disregard of what their autosome profile
and genomic ADMIXTURE will undoubtedly reveal.
IE a European person with signs of African admixture.
In other words a white person in all likelihood matching
any (N)W Euro white person of unknown or hidden Afr blk ancestry
or matching North Med Euro white persons w/o recent Afr parentage.


Sociological "blacks" cannot stand in for
anthropological blacks in scientific study.

Some ppl agree a person with only 1 of 8 African gg-parents is a black?
Do you support this ploy designed to bolster white purity by shifting
even a person as little as 1 of 16 actual African great great grand
parents onto the black race?

I don't.


Abraham Hannibal's generational descendants, the
last not white just passing per American One Drop


Do no skim read as w/t Lucan. Please read carefully for retentive comprehension.




Only in America certainly not in Africa or elsewhere in yte world
whether they had African black slaves or not. Take Latin America
where accurate if poorly labelled terms clearly delineate a plethora
of ranges from African black to European white filled in by mixtures
of people recognized in like up to 32 categories (more if indigenous
American reds and their mixtures are included).

Shih, down in Jamaica they called Bob Marley, with
his perfectly negro phenotype mother, WHITE BOY. A
true mulatta has parents who themselves are "pure"
not one or both who are already highly miscegenated.

---

Yes, which shows how 'race' is more so a social construct than a biological one, but what does any of this have to do with the Ptolemies who did not enslave the local populace or raped native women but merely intermarried with them or at least one or two and had native noble born women in their court??

quote:

---

Reminder, the region of Cleo's paternal origin was
admixed with certain elements of 'Fulani' typical
genes. She could have micro-miniscule "black"
blood from that reality. But that includes
the first and every Ptolemy regardless of
sister-different-mother Arsinoe.


Something else you can never know or experience.
Walking to North Philly from Downtown one day on
5th St., I ran into a blk skinned man and his yte
skinned wife and their children. At the time I too
foolishly accepted that yte supremist One Drop
yte racial purity ruse.

Well though like me he was making the world
a darker place to live, that man told me:
"You see our kids? They not black. They not
white. They they own."

Hah, hah!

Hey, Uncle Sam! Up yours and your whack definitions
based on a slavery and its American social dynamics
you still refuse to come to terms with while they
continue polarizing the nation you mascot!

---

From what I understand the opposite principle was at work in Africa especially in regard with the Arabs whose mixed children were not bastardized but were regarded as "Arab" despite their African mothers as a way of inheriting/usurping their lands and territories.

quote:

---

Back to Djehuti, you haven't posted anything in
depth about the Filipino sociology I asked of
you but you wanna school me on my race and the
supra-culture that surrounds my 'sub'-culture.
Better check yourself now before you fall into
the educating-benighted-natives syndrome of some
non-blx contributing to black related ES themes.
Like a Big 8 Afr hist professor who after a Nigerian
told our class about Bini, not Benin, history blurted
out: "Aw, that's what the British taught you". Such
privileged arrogance to know more about someones
than those someones do.

---

The situation in the Philippines was much the same as Latin America where Spanish colonists intermarried if not freely consorted with native Filipina women and their offspring were considered 'Mestizos' which was the same class in the Americas as children of mixed white and Indigenous Americans. These Mestizos had more privileged and higher up in the colonial hierarchy than pure natives. Not surprisingly their descendants today are some of the wealthiest families in the Philippines.

quote:

---

=-=-=

Now I've asked for the original of the Lucan quote
to vet the words white shiny but no one wants that
they just want a (mixed)black Cleo or bust.

---

I'll have to find the original Latin then, if I can. It's best to have the source in its original language.

quote:

---

Brandon doesn't trust Lucan because it goes against his
illustrated chocolate fantasies where "for fucks sake"
even Jewish TaMazight Dahya Kahena high up in the Djur Djura
fastholds right next to the Mediterranean Sea comes out

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=5#000223

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=3#000139

a provocatively posed spear chucker with the plump
negress rump of white sexual dreamland which is fine
for non factual historic illustrations but is a lie
distorting my African Jewish heritage.

I'm afraid Brandon's wailing against Lucan's penned description amounts to
no more than protecting and projecting this Gladys Knight looking 90% negress

---

LOL his fantasies aside, I don't discount Lucian's description OR the possibility still that Cleo despite her African admixture whether from generations ago could still have white white skin.

quote:

---

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010376#000026

as the at least 50% Hellene Macedonian queen over Egypt
the same as he proposed Frank Zappa's pic on his Sheikh
Yerbouti album cover as the true authentic Hebrew type
no matter the Lachish portraiture reveal nothing close
to FZ or other modern day French Lebanese admixtures.


And I'd hire Brandon in a flash for scenic illustrations
of a book for young adults on African peoples, cultures,
and civilisations, provided he'd heed authenticity over
his own "creative license."


BACK TO THE EGYPTOLOGY
Meanwhile I continue waiting for Brandon to post
contemporaneous descriptions of Cleo. There was
only one author naming her who actually lived
when she did. Why are historians etc., only
using his few lines as all we reliably know
about her? Those lines don't tell us much
anything biographical more so than the
authors negative feelings about Cleo.


Lucan's good ethnology (again) [QUOTE]

There were also a swarm of attendants, a host

of servants to the multitude, differing in age

and cast of skin, some with the dark hair of

Libya, some so tawny that Caesar declared

he had never seen hair as red on the Rhine;


some had black skin, woolly heads, the hair

receding from the brow, and there were those

wretched effeminate lads, who had lost their

manhood to the knife: ranked opposite older

youths whose cheeks showed barely any down.


There, kings, and Caesar, greater than they, were

seated. There too was Cleopatra, not content with

a crown of her own, or her brother for a husband,

her baleful beauty inordinately painted, covered

with Red Sea pearls, a fortune in her hair and

around her neck, weighed down with jewellery.

Her snowy breasts gleamed through the Sidonian

stuff, threads wound tight on the Seres’ shuttles,

that Egyptian needle-workers loosen and extend

drawing out the silk. On snowy tusks they set

round citrus-wood tables cut in Moorish forests,

such as Caesar never saw even on capturing Juba.

What a mad blind rage for display, revealing her

wealth to a general fresh from civil war, stirring

the mind of an armed guest!

---

.


White
snow
tusks
Cleo's titties

---

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
As usual, thx 4/t Classical Era background clarity.

now ... Devil's Advocate here.


So, Washington and Jefferson's yte legitimate kids are probably 1/2 blk cos
father sired mulatto bastard kids on no-choice-but-to-fuck-'massa' blk girls?

Does the same logic hold to judge Mai Iluma's kids on a Bornu wife
as 1/2 Turk since he had kids on a Circassian sex slave girl or two?

Logical probability or special pleading fallacy?


=-=-=-=


Ah, the poor poor Ptolemies

Greeks to Egyptians

Egyptians to Romans

Poor Cleo
a skilled extremely talented
and decent person a teen queen
adept at intrigue trying to save
and expand her decadent realm
vilified by Greco-Latin authors
mythologized by all ever after


=-=-=-=


Back before "Afrocentric" became the buzz,
the degreed ones were clear that "blk Cleo"
et al are not the concern of Afrocentrism.

quote:

---

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument.

Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Race in Antiquity
Published 5/19/2009

---

.


=-=-=-=


Can somebody please vet the two pertinent words below for valid translation from the primary Latin document?





in keeping with my profile signature below re Africana

---

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay this is one winding road you guys took me through. The topic went from Didyme a black Egyptian to Cleopatra's white titties.

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Questioner is correct. The Seres were not Chinese or even East Asians but were a white Indo-European speaking people related to the Tocharians who were famed at that time for their fine sheeps' wool. However the Sidonians are famous for their 'sea silk' called byssos by the Greeks which was a natural polymer produced by marine mollusks and creates a glossy sheen which can be woven into fabrics and the Sidonians usually wove the byssos into their fine linens. So if that were case then it may not have been her actual bare breasts that was "white and shiny" like glistening snow.

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Slow down. Last post already clarified for you it's the garment's color that's white.

I'm saying these mistranslations are 19th century Eurocentrisms
* gleam =/= white
* snow = a fabrication, is not found in the original Lucan Latin poem.

---

quote:

---

The line in Lucan's poem following the garments
are explicit that the Lebanese fabric was rewoven
and actually begins with the word for thread in
the preceding line.

filo ,
Quod Nilotis acus compressum pectine
Serum Solvit,
et extenso laxavit stamina velo.

fabric,
which, the needle of the workman of the Nile has separated,
in the close texture wrought by the sley of the Seres,
and has loosened the warp by stretching out the web.

---

quote:

---

SIDEBAR:
Hey! Know nothing about Seres nor Tocharians
but does that relate to this Tarim Basin mummies
race controversy 'concluded' this season
in favor of Asian not European biology?

Though he knows a Seres people far up Nile,
this seres of our concern is Lucan's Serum.
If time didn't allow examining this from last post
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:id=sericum-cn
then try the short stack
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=serum&la=la&can=serum0&prior=pectine&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:alphabetic%20letter=S:entry=sericum-cn&i=1


This from Pliny? Is it more in line with your better known Seres/Tocharians?
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D20

---

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay this is one winding road you guys took me through. The topic went from Didyme a black Egyptian to Cleopatra's white titties.

Again, I'm not saying Cleopatra was necessarily of mixed indigenous ancestry but the possibility exists because her sister Arsinoe was. This fact along with the passage that Brandon cites is about their ancestor Ptolemy II having Didyme as a lover shows that the Alexandrians were not as segregated from the native populace as many historians would have us think.

We know that after Alexander's conquest and founding of the colonial city of Alexandria, the Makedon-Hellenist elites who ruled the city enforced a law that no natives may enter except as servile peoples to the court (either slaves, servants, or employees). This has lead many Western scholars to suspect the same type of Apartheid policies as practiced by colonial Brits under their empire.

However, the 'mixed-race' Princess Arsinoe who was rival to Cleopatra for the throne, as well as Dr. Ben-Jochannan's reference to the founding Ptolemy I having a native wife and his son Ptolemy II married to a native woman by the name of Hadra, shows they were not the anti-miscegenistic white supremacists that Euros were in recent centuries. In fact it was customary in those days to establish ties to a foreign land via intermarriage with natives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

DJ
pending Brandon's permission I think it'd be worth
the effort to steer this thread in the direction of
the moldy oldie ones detailing the African elements
in Greek people, culture, and civilizaion. Those old
threads are platinum mines no one's reading and bump
up won't do the trick to get those infos out for our
2020s audience. A lot there needs update too!

---

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

I mentioned it in another thread, but I have a pet hypothesis that the Fayum mummy portraits represent a sort of "creole" class of mixed Greco-Roman and native Egyptian descent. A lot of them do look like they could be an African/Mediterranean European mix. I wonder if they would have enjoyed a privileged status over "pure" native Egyptians due to their Greek or Roman connections?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted here by Byron Bumper:
BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

The Roman period after the fall of the Ptolemies, the Fayum Portraits

http://fayum.wam-art.net/history/

Mummy portraits or Fayum mummy portraits is the modern term given to a type of realistic painted portraits on wooden boards attached to mummies. They belong to the tradition of panel painting, one of the most highly regarded forms of art in the Classical world. In fact, the Fayum portraits are the only large body of art from that tradition to have survived.

Mummy portraits have been found across Egypt, but are most common in the Fayum Basin, hence the common name. "Fayum Portraits" is generally thought of as a stylistic, rather than a geographic, description. The Fayum mummy portraits were an innovation dating to the Coptic period on time of the Roman occupation of Egypt from the late 1st century BC or the early 1st century AD onwards. This highly prestigious tradition of the classical world was continued into Byzantine and Western traditions in the post-classical world, including the local tradition of Coptic iconography in Egypt and then in the famous Slavic (Russian, Bulgarian) icons.

The portraits covered the faces of bodies that were mummified for burial. Extant examples indicate that they were mounted into the bands of cloth that were used to wrap the bodies. Almost all have now been detached from the mummies. They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Greco-Roman traditions than Egyptian ones....

Social status

The patrons of the portraits apparently belonged to the affluent upper class of military personnel, civil servants and religious dignitaries. Not everyone could afford a mummy portrait; many mummies were found without one. Flinders Petrie states that only one or two per cent of the mummies he excavated were embellished with portraits...

It is not clear whether those depicted are of Egyptian, Greek or Roman origin, nor whether the portraits were commonly used by all ethnicities. The name of some of those portrayed are known from inscriptions, they are of Egyptian, Greek and Roman origin. Hairstyles and clothing are always influenced by Roman fashion. Women and children are often depicted wearing valuable ornaments and fine garments, men often wearing specific and elaborate outfits. Greek inscriptions of names are relatively common, sometimes they include professions. It is not known whether such inscriptions always reflect reality, or whether they may state ideal conditions or aspirations rather than true conditions. One single inscription is known to definitely indicate the deceased's profession (a ship owner) correctly. The mummy of a woman named Hermione also included the term Grammatik. For a long time, it was assumed that this indicated that she was a teacher by profession (for this reason, Flinders Petrie donated the portrait to Girton College, Cambridge, the first residential college for women in Britain), but today, it is assumed that the term indicates her level of education. Some portraits of men show sword-belts or even pommels, suggesting that they were members of the Roman military.


¡It should be clear to anyone familiar with ancient Egyptian art, or rather yet Egyptian people that most people in these portraits are clearly a mixture of Egyptian and European!

BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

---

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
That the Fayum portraits represent a mixture of Greco-Romans and Baladi is pretty much a given. Even the Euronuts have long lost the argument that they somehow represent pure-blood Egyptians.

However that is an interesting hypothesis, that is the notion of a 'half-caste' class.

---

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

---

Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] I thought it was made clear by my examples of actress Meghan Markle and the pop star Halsey that mixed or 'biracial' people can have very fair/white complexions also!

Here is another pic of Halsey



Here is a pic of of actress Rebecca Hall who is also biracial.

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Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry (Table 1). We find systematic differences across states in the US in mean ancestry proportions of self-reported African Americans (Figure 1 and Table S2). On average, the highest levels of African ancestry are found in African Americans living in or born in the South, especially South Carolina and Georgia (Figure 1Aand Table S3). We find lower proportions of African ancestry in the Northeast, the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest, and California. The amount of Native American ancestry estimated for African Americans also varies across states in the US. More than 5% of African Americans are estimated to carry at least 2% Native American ancestry genome-wide (Figures S1 and 1D). African Americans in the West and Southwest on average carry higher levels of Native American ancestry, a trend that is largely driven by individuals with less than 2% Native American ancestry (Figure 1B). With a lower threshold of 1% Native American ancestry, we estimate that about 22% of African Americans carry some Native American ancestry (Figure S2).

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

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Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ But according to the source cited by Tukuler, the Ptolemies already had African/Egyptian admixture before Arsinoe and Cleopatra VII were born, so no they were not technically 'biracial'.

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

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Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :

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You post a collage mural of different Faiyum portraits from the Greco-Roman era showing an obviously heterogeneous mix of people, but I don't see how you can call them "Arabs" when they have nothing to do with the Arab people. By the way, the majority of people today who are called 'Arabs' are not ethnic Arabs but rather 'Arabized' that is Arabic in language in culture. It's like modern Hispanics, who speak Spanish language but the vast majority may have little to no Spanish ancestry at all.

Also what does your mural have to do with the specific Hawara sample that Irish used. The Hawara sample shows NO Eurasian admixture unlike his Greek Egyptian sample.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

Modern egyptians are already an heterogeneous mix of people and these fayum portraits still look for the most part very north african and if you know they are in fact arabized why do you treat them as vulgar "invaders" do you have any evidence of important amount of foreign ancestry in their genome?

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As for the Hawara samples do you have any source to back up your statement ? Eurasian admixture in that part of the world is old going back to the paleolithic era.

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Sir, I just cited a paper from Irish and even quoted him! I suggest you scroll up and read what he wrote. The Hawara sample differed from the Greek and Asiatic ones as being African in affinity. Now can you provide a source showing Eurasian admixture in Egypt going back to the paleolithic??

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
So just exactly what do you mean by a 'North African' look? North Africans vary from white blonde or red-headed coastal Berbers, and white Alexandrian Greeks and Circassians, to dark brown (black) Tuaregs, Moors, or Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians and variation in between including brown-skinned pure Arabs vs. fairer skinned Turks and Circassians. Yes the Arabs proper were invaders but so were a variety of peoples who invaded Egypt before them. 'Arab' largely describes the predominant language and culture, but it says little about the actual people. Do you realize that ethnic Arab Egyptians still look down upon and discriminate against the ethnic Baladi Egyptians not only for their dark skin but for racial stereotypes that are surprisingly not much different from those traditionally held by whites for blacks in America??

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Sir, I just cited a paper from Irish and even quoted him? I suggest you scroll up and read what he wrote. The Hawara sample differed from the Greek and Asiatic ones as being African in affinity. Now can you provide a source showing Eurasian admixture in Egypt going back to the paleolithic?? [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

I meant that they already looked like the average north african and would have probably be considered as "arab looking" by afro-americans like yourself if they were alive today. Also I don't see why you equate "invasion" with replacement/changes and such "invasions" could have occured and did occured even before historical times. Population living in Europe or West Asia didn't wait "hyksos" or "arabs" to settle in North Africa.

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And I don't see why you bring colorism into this discussion but Egyptians like any other "arab" populations have a long lasting history of slavery which mostly involved dark skinned populations. So don't be surprised if in countries like Morocco "abid" became synonymous of "black" nor should you be surprised when modern egyptians express such feelings.

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How is this a proof they had no eurasian admixture? You said it yourself : north africans already show such affinity and yet they are predominantly eurasian genetically + they show similarities with the Badarian samples which clearly show eurasian affinities unlike for example the pure negroids from Jebel Sahaba.

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And are you seriously denying paleolithic and neolithic back migrations to Africa?

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I personally know Arabs from the Middle East and even they tell me North Africans generally look black or 'black-mixed' the Arabs in North Africa being descended from the Islamic invaders. I already provided you a link to a thread I created on Baladi: The Baladi of Egypt consider it an insult if you call them Nubians.They’re Egyptian!!. The Baladi are the non-Arab indigenous Egyptians who are often mistaken for 'Nubians' by foreigners because they are black! They also suffer from discrimination and stigma by the lighter skinned elites of their country they call Afrangi who stereotype them as "violent", "lazy", "criminalistic" and "hypersexual" i.e. the same stereotypes applied to other black Africans.

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Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :





And stop with your "muh arab" as if a few thousand soldiers would have been able to replace or deeply impact the most densely populated area of the ancient world even worse with your logic we should accept the fact arabs replaced or deeply impacted the whole middle east + all north africa...sure. Some egyptians might have a bit of recent arab ancestry but that's it.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: And NO, I'm not "Afro-American" I'm actually Asian American, Filipino to be exact. And it was a Filipino researcher, Paul Kekai Manansala, who documented all the evidence showing the Egyptians to be an African people showing more affinities to so-called Sub-Saharans than to Eurasians. Although is website is out of commission copies of his findings can be found here:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Ignoramus, the Baladi were never actually enslaved but were reduced to serfs under Islamic rule since they were already Christian (Copts!). While many converted to Islam and gained full rights under the Islamic Umma, those who remained Christian had a rougher time including paying the jizya tax. Whatever slaves from Sub-Sahara that was imported into the country was owned by the Arab and other Afrangi elite and were a miniscule minority.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: I said that in certain phenotypic features North Africans do show affinities to Eurasians but they still show affinities to Sub-Saharans as well which is why all biometric studies show North Africans to be intermediate between Sub-Saharans and Eurasians and NOT grouped with Eurasian, you liar!

Again here is what Irish has to say concerning dental discrete traits of North Africans:

Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which parallels that of Europeans, yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2, and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.

^ All the traits listed in bold are ones shared with Sub-Saharans! Really the biggest difference in dental traits between North Africans and Sub-Saharan is metrically with the former having smaller 'microdont' teeth similar to West Eurasians while the latter has larger 'megadont' teeth similar to Australo-Melanesians. They still share many non-metric traits in common hence the intermediate position NAs have between SSA and West Eurasians.

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I was talking about their ancestry not "biometric" datas and since when are dental traits representative of all the other traits ? Most North Africans cluster with west eurasians physically certainly not as "intermediate" :

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The anthropological position of Algerians vis-à-vis other populations of the Mediterranean Basin, also analyzed by the method of the general distance of Hiernaux, showed that there are affinities between them and certain populations of the Mediterranean West such as the Corsicans, the Sardinians, the Spaniards, the Italians of the south. On the other hand, the coefficients of distance appeared particularly high between the Algerians and the Italians of the Center, as well as the Yugoslavs and the sedentary populations of the Near East like the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Syrians. In these populations, the Armenoid type, which is very different from the Mediterranean type, is indeed widely represented, whereas it is not very widespread in Algeria. There is therefore no reason to be surprised by these divergences. On the other hand, the distance between certain Bedouins of the Near East where the Mediterranean type predominates, and the Algerians, appeared much less marked.

The origin of the affinities between the Algerians and the populations of the Western Mediterranean cannot be explained on the sole basis of current biological data, but must be sought in the anthropological past of the Algerian population as well as in the historical and archaeological data at our disposal. The latter, for their part, seem to demonstrate the existence of cultural currents from the protohistoric period and perhaps even going back to an earlier period, between the Maghreb and the countries of the

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Originally posted by Djehuti: In a later study Irish contrasts Greco-Roman colonial samples from native Egyptains: Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental AffinitiesAmong Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples

Did Egyptians of the Ptolemaic and Roman periods differ significantly from their dynastic antecedents?



I never said they are "predominantly Eurasian genetically", this is YOUR claim which you have yet to prove. We've already shown how in autosomal studies this 'Eurasian' or 'Middle Eastern' substructure often masks African ones like ANA and even so-called Eurasian profiles like EEF and Basal Eurasian are heavily correlated with African haplogroups which means it's not as Eurasian as you think.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course not. What I question is whether those people "back-migrating" were really Eurasians unrelated to Africans instead of Africans who simply left and returned. Are you serously denying multiple OOA expansions which not only explains E-M215 and L2 in Southwest Asia but in Europe as well not to mention HBS sickle-cell mutation.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Funny how you have yet to address the actual topic of this thread which is about Ptolemy II's Egyptian lover Didyme.

In 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, Asclepiades describes Didyme as such:

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

Look Neandernut, my patience is wearing thin with you running around the elephant in the room! Keep running while you can. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

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Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

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Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

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even though her definition is ridiculous, these men are still not black since their skin color is "brown"/tanned

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

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Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

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even though her definition is ridiculous, these men are still not black since their skin color is "brown"/tanned

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the argument is that is the classical Greco-Roman definition of black, a color not features

Those Egyptians are dark and it's not all tan, their bodies if uncovered are not going to resemble the average Western European,
they ae going to be quite brown
There are millions of people of European descent, who have lived in Florida their whole life. That is the same latitude as Egypt, Algeria or Libya
but their faces don't look like that, only in some cases if they intentionally lie in the beach for hours and do it all the time

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
depends what type of skin type they have but I can assure you that when I tan I literally become brown while in france I have a light skin color but my mom can't tan for example so it really depends on the person.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Which greek word exactly was used to describe her ? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

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Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

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If Asclepiades is likening Didyme's complexion to coals, I don't think he had a light tan in mind.


--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
And I don't really want to waste a lot of effort rebutting Antalas. DJ has more stamina for that than I do. But this was funny:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Which greek word exactly was used to describe her ? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

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Did this guy not read the original quotation?

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Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

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If Asclepiades is likening Didyme's complexion to coals, I don't think he had a light tan in mind.

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S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you...

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There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking...

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You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this:

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Moron! Most of the photos in my Baladi thread are from Luxor, Sohag, and Gurna Upper Egypt well away from the Sudanese border and I even included photos of Baladi from northern region of Giza who act as local tour guides for the pyramids!!
So you assumed they were all Nubians from near the southern border because of their "negroid" appearance?!! Shows how ignorant you are!!
ROTFLOL


There's no need for me to "cherrypick" anything. Again I'm not playing 'picture spam wars' with you. There are countless picture threads in this forum showing you Baladi from their own communities. Go take a look yourself, and by the way your own photos prove my point.

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And stop with your "muh arab" as if a few thousand soldiers would have been able to replace or deeply impact the most densely populated area of the ancient world even worse with your logic we should accept the fact arabs replaced or deeply impacted the whole middle east + all north africa...sure. Some egyptians might have a bit of recent arab ancestry but that's it.

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hahaha sure a filipino spending years here obsessing over egyptians and their blackness ...makes sense.

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Who said they were enslaved? Reread what I posted. What does "arab" even mean here ...Baladi speak arabic like any other egyptian and no they weren't a miniscule minority we're talking about millions of slaves being imported in North africa which had back then low population (compared to our current era) of a few millions (if not a few thousands for libya). Compared to all the ancient samples we have, egyptians have extra west african ancestry which could have only been brought by the slave trade (similar pattern is seen among their haplogroups).

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I was talking about their ancestry not "biometric" datas and since when are dental traits representative of all the other traits?...

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Most North Africans cluster with west eurasians physically certainly not as "intermediate":...

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That depends on which specific factor or trait you are referring to. In other ways, they cluster with Sub-Saharans as is the case with skeletal limb proportions:

The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

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The anthropological position of Algerians vis-à-vis other populations of the Mediterranean Basin, also analyzed by the method of the general distance of Hiernaux, showed that there are affinities between them and certain populations of the Mediterranean West such as the Corsicans, the Sardinians, the Spaniards, the Italians of the south. On the other hand, the coefficients of distance appeared particularly high between the Algerians and the Italians of the Center, as well as the Yugoslavs and the sedentary populations of the Near East like the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Syrians. In these populations, the Armenoid type, which is very different from the Mediterranean type, is indeed widely represented, whereas it is not very widespread in Algeria. There is therefore no reason to be surprised by these divergences. On the other hand, the distance between certain Bedouins of the Near East where the Mediterranean type predominates, and the Algerians, appeared much less marked.

The origin of the affinities between the Algerians and the populations of the Western Mediterranean cannot be explained on the sole basis of current biological data, but must be sought in the anthropological past of the Algerian population as well as in the historical and archaeological data at our disposal. The latter, for their part, seem to demonstrate the existence of cultural currents from the protohistoric period and perhaps even going back to an earlier period, between the Maghreb and the countries of the

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2897#tocto2n15

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Showing some dental affinities with SSAs doesn't mean much since we already know north africans have ssa ancestry.

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Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans.



What's interesting is that NONE of the samples Irish used are modern but ALL ancient samples from dynastic and predynastic times. This seemingly contradicts the Abusir Mummy study unless one takes into account that the mummies come from a late period and/or what Beyoku pointed here that there are African substructures that are not yet differentiated from 'Eurasian' the same way ANA was.

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Funny how you try to question everything eurasian and make it "african"...I really wonder how all these populations became white with caucasoid features. And again stop obsessing over ANA while such ancestry was already found in low proportion among Iberomaurusians let alone people like Natufians. Having some ANA won't make them "african" or "black".

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So now even EEF are black ? Hahahahaha are you aware that modern sardinians are basically EEF do they look "african" to you ? Are you aware that modern arabs carry 60-70% of natufian ancestry do they look black to you ? Again stop embarassing yourself with such claims, it's pretty evident all these populations were physically very different from modern sub-saharan africans.

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You're forgetting the timeframe here, when we talk about back migrants we're not talking about the first OOA migrants who just arrived in the middle east obviously. Upper Paleolithic europeans despite having dark skinned clearly had nothing to do with "africans" ,looked very different and plot far from them and yet Iberomaurusians were very similar to them physically...let alone the later neolithic capsians who were proto-mediterraneans and very similar physically to people like kabyles.

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At this point it is just dishonesty, such back migrations and ancestry are definitely distinct and eurasian in essence unable to face such reality you tries to make it "african" as "part of the diversity of Africa" lmao...you're desesperate at this point.

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Which greek word exactly was used to describe her? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

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LMAO Sorry but Greeks aren't dumb enough to conflate 'black' with 'tanned'!! The Greek word for black is melano (melanchro for very black) while the word for tanned or 'bronze' color is skouraino. Not to mention the passage compared Didyme's complexion to coal! Seriously, Neandernut your delusions are too much!

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
lol I just checked your link and this is what they say :

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S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

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hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.

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As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

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Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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"Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans."

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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This quote is really odd considering that in the first place, no united entity called Nubia was ever used by the Egyptians/Kushites in 3,000+ years of dynastic history.

I do find it funny that people keep debating this topic when there's literally so called black Egyptians in Upper Egypt still alive today.








[/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
lol I just checked your link and this is what they say :

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S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

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hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.

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Immediately afterward, said source says:

quote:

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As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

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Mind you, there's nothing in the ancient quote itself that indicates she had to be of "Nubian" ancestry. That is just an assumption certain modern scholars have made based on their preconceptions of how AE and "Nubian" peoples looked like.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

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"Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans."

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This is an 1000 IQ quote

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nope. The only one making claims up is YOU. This is the general stereotype that Middle Eastern Arabs have about North Africans. Note this is a stereotype so there are of course exceptions but they know what the original North Africans look like.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Baladi is the Coptic word for 'indigenous' or 'native' as opposed to Khawaga which means 'foreign'. Baladi is an ethnic appellation in contrast to other Egyptians who are of foreign ancestry whether it be Arab, Greek, Circassian, etc. Even some Baladi are mixed but those in the rural communities are more pristine. You say you know "some of them on twitter", but are they actually Baladi or simply Arab or some other type of Egyptian. Come on, be honest for once in your life. As far as not "black looking" well that depends on what you mean by "black". Many North Africans equate "black" with stereotypical Sub-Saharan looking of course here in the West and even in Europe "black" encompasses a lot more than West African/Bantu looking.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Moron. Most of the photos in my Balad thread are from Luxor, Sohag, and Gurna Upper Egypt well far away from the Sudanese border and I even included photos of Baladi from northern region of Giza who act as local tour guides for the pyramids!!
So you assumed they were all Nubians from near the southern border because of their "negroid" appearance?!! Shows how ignorant you are!!
ROTFLOL


There's no need for me to "cherrypick" anything. Again I'm not playing 'picture spam wars' with you. There are countless picture threads in this forum showing you Baladi from their own communities. Go take a look yourself, and by the way your own photos prove my point.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: You idiot, it was far more than a few thousand if you count the different Caliphates in history that brought in waves of Arab tribes to help establish their authority. Even the Ottoman Turkish Caliphate not only imported Arab tribes but also fellow Turks as well as Circassians from the Caucasus and even Europeans from the Balkans.

It is pretty much a historical fact that througout the Dynastic Period and into the Roman period, the vast majority of the Egyptian populace resided in Upper Egypt yet by the beginning of the Modern Era the majority of the populace resides in the Delta as they do today. You don't think a demographic change occurred?

I suggest you educate yourself:

Arab migration into Egypt and Sudan during the Medieval period

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, I joined this forum years ago to discuss cultural features of ancient Egyptian culture which I happened to notice strongly coincide with those of Sub-Saharans. I pretty much got dragged into the whole 'race' argument but the evidence is overwhelming in support of their black identity. One does not have to be black to accept it. Again Paul Kekai Manansal did his research and compiled all the evidence. He even started a web group called 'Ta Seti'. Brandon is another poster on here and he is white!! There are many others. It's not about Afrocentric but about the TRUTH. Egypt is in Africa and its peoples are African including 'black' skin!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Baladi speak Arabic because they were Arabized like many people under Islamic rule. I forgot which Caliphate, but Egyptians were even threatened with fines and even death if the natives didn't learn Arabic.

The Transition from Coptic to Arabic:

After the Arab conquest of Egypt, Coptic continued to be used by the Christian population and remained the sole language of the Church for at least three centuries. During the first century of Arab rule, it seems as if the use of Arabic was mainly limited to the immigrants, and the internal affaire of the military ruling elite. It was only with the large-scale immigration of Arabs, the defeat of Coptic peasant résistance to the new rulers and the repressive taxation of the Copts with the subsequent conversion oflarge parts of the population to Islam in the later eighth and in the ninth century, that Arabic became the main spoken language. By the early ninth century, the use of Arabic among Christians had become widespread but was still regarded as contrary to their fidelity to the Christian heritage 4. But during the tenth and eleventh centuries, this changed rapidly. Within a few generations Coptic died out as a spoken language, and by the end of the twelfth century, Arabic had become the main written languageof the Church. As is evident from the linguistic works of the great Coptic scholars of the thirteenth century, Copticwas already a classical language known only by those who studied it from preserved texts

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Also, while millions of Sub-Saharans were imported into Egypt, the vast majority of them were then exported to the east in other parts of the Arab world especially Baghdad. This makes sense because the Baladi who themselves were in serfdom were already in a state of servitude to the Arab and other Afrangi elites who ruled over them so mass slave labor from eslwhere was not needed. Those Sub-Saharans who stayed in Egypt served in the Afrangi elite's households and in many ways had better lives than the Baladi who scraped and labored the fields. There were very few if any instances of Baladi intermarrying with these Sub-Saharan slaves. Also, the birthrate of the Sub-Saharans was extremely low. Not only were the males castrated and unable to sire offspring but it is recorded that the females had fertility issues. So no the Sub-Saharan admixture among modern Egyptians cannot be explained by "slave" admixture, ignoramus!

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Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: If you paid attention to what was said in the Irish thread here or at least educate yourself about dental discrete data here, you would realize that non-metric dental traits like all non-metric traits correlate to actual population genetics! This is unlike metric data which is more specious and not directly tied to genetics.

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Therefore why don't you acknowledge the fact that such non-metric datas show ancient egyptians to be mostly west eurasian :


"Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada (#59), 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh (#60) cluster with Northwest Indians from Punjab and Kashmir (#44), Ancient and Modern Greeks (#48), Scandinavians from Finland, Sweden and Norway (#51, #52), and Modern Germans (#53)."





This is what the paper also says :

quote:

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The initial split, suggesting the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups.

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HANIHARA, TSUNEHIKO, HAJIME ISHIDA, AND YUKIO DODO. 2003. Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121:241-251.


Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

quote:

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The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group , which is also subdivided into two subgroups. One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations. "

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First, this homogeneity spans both space - from the Canary Islands to Egypt, and time - from recent Arabs and Berbers to West Asian-derived Carthaginians (751?-146 BC), 18th Dynasty (1575-1380 BC) Pharonic Nubians, and 12th Dynasty (1991-1783 BC) Egyptians. A small Capsian sample (ca. 8,500-5,000 BP) from Algeria and Tunisia also exhibits many trait similarities. Late Pleistocene Nubians (14,500-12,500 BP), however, are significantly different. Second, the post-Pleistocene North Africans are similar to Europeans in that they possess numerous dental features involving morphological simplification. Any North African deviations away from this pattern are in the direction of mass-additive Sub-Saharan traits. This finding supports the results of prior genetic-based studies that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians, yet record several Sub-Saharan tendencies. Together, the two findings suggest that a morphologically simple dental pattern is shared by the indigenous peoples of North Africa, as well as Europe and perhaps western Asia, and this pattern has existed for the past 4,000 to perhaps 8,500+/- years."

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Irish J.D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155


It seems that when discussing Irish's work you missed this :

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However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: That depends on which specific factor or trait you are referring to. In other ways, they cluster with Sub-Saharans as is the case with skeletal structural limb proportions.
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

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The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: First off, the population history of the Maghreb is different from that of Egypt. Algerians are not Egyptians. Even the craniometric MMD chart you posted shows that. This shows that North Africans are not homogeneous anymore than Sub-Saharans are.

Second, yes the Maghreb recieved admixture from Sothwest Europe but the converse is also true with Southwest Europeans recieving African admixture from the Maghreb. So what's your point?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Actually I only question something being "Eurasian" when it is found in Africa. You see, Euronuts like yourself have been trying to white-wash Africa for well over a century. Not just Egyptians, but Nubians and even Ethiopians, Somalis, Tutsis, Fulani, etc. any Africans who supposedly look "caucasoid". You see, one reason why Asians like myself and Manansala are on to your b.s. is because Asians have also been victims of this white-wash. Just look at the old literature of Southeast Asians and Polynesians once classed as "Mediteranean Cacasoid" due to certain features as well. As far as why many North Africans in the coastal areas including Egyptians look white today is because due to foreign admixture of course. Of course rural Berbers and Baladi Egyptians are different.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: I didn't say EEF itself was necessarily "black" only that it has an African component to it. And yes I know about modern Arabs carrying Natufian ancestry. Are you aware that the Natufians carried not only paternal E1b1b but also maternal L2b and Benin HBS sickle cell? Are you aware historically some modern Arabs in the rural Hejaz and especially in Yemen today were/are considered black?? Are you also aware that one-third of Europeans have African ancestry does that make them black? Of course not. Having a particular ancestry doesn't mean they will have a certain phenotype or look.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Do you realize that even old racist scholars like Carleton Coon described so-called 'Proto-Mediterraneans' as distinct from Upper Paleolithic Europeans and as originating in Africa OR Southwest Asia and was said to have "negroid tendencies"?? He and other scholars also included North Sudanese and Horn Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis as part of this 'race continuum'. So if you want to include all these people as whate cacasoids then so be it.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: You're right about one thing. It is dishonesty from YOU, as well as ignorance. I just described all the African genetic traits associated with the Neolithic forebears including skeletal traits of skull and face that tie them to Africa. Africa is the source of humanity so unsurprisingly it has the highest genetic diversity of any continent. That you want live in fantasy land of white Egypt and white Neolithic folks who have nothing to do with Africa is your problem of delusion not mine.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
Immediately afterward, said source says:

quote:

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As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

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Mind you, there's nothing in the ancient quote itself that indicates she had to be of "Nubian" ancestry. That is just an assumption certain modern scholars have made based on their preconceptions of how AE and "Nubian" peoples looked like. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

I forgot to mention that the many traits that North Africans have in common with Sub-Saharans should be acknowledged simply as African traits period. While there are differences between North Africans and Sub-Saharans there are also commonalities between the two that Euronuts like Antalas/Nassbean are in denial of.

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it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] ^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

[QUOTE] He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

I forgot to mention that the many traits that North Africans have in common with Sub-Saharans should be acknowledged simply as African traits period. While there are differences between North Africans and Sub-Saharans there are also commonalities between the two that Euronuts like Antalas/Nassbean are in denial of.

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Can you stop with your assumptions about me ? I never said or imply all egyptians look the same and are "light skinned arab" nor did I claim that ssa traits are only due to slave ancestry.

And stop making generalizations about ancient greek words, you're clearly downplaying all the nuances of greek words. They generally used "aethiop" ( ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black) that's why Ammian Marcellin said this :

Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest".[59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians". So it wasn't just "black" like in the United States.

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You're trying to create doubt on this subject, and it's pathetic! Ancient Nile Valley civilization was comprised of a confederation of distinct Black Africans. We know from various forms of evidence that Nilo Saharan speaking peoples were there. We know from various forms of evidence that Niger-Congo speakers were present. We know from various forms of evidence that Cushitic elements were present. We also know from various forms of evidence that the Dravidian peoples of India were also present. White scholars if they even acknowledge an African component will only allude to some Cushitic affinities. It is up to us to assert that the rest were present. None the less it was a Black civilization from start to finish. You have no real point at all since we all know that non Blacks in Asia and Europe were despised by the Khamites as Set worshipping heathens which was contrary to the Osirian culture. Manethos made it clear that whites at one time (JUST LIKE TACTUS OF ROME STATED) had a uniform look (red hair and Blue eyes), and were subject to immediate death by the Black Egyptians as whites with that phenotype were seen as living embodiments of their Devil Set. So that's why you sound RIDICULOUS claiming that Kemet was anything but Black African.

Ancient Egyptian Scarabs


These people do not look Indian. These people look like Idi Amin of Uganda. None of the people in the picture below look anything like these Scarabs. Nor do these modern peoples in Egypt carry sickle cell like the people of Dynastic and predynastic Kham did.



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Posts: 266 | From: N/A | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

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the men look similar in both sets

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Despite little no aDNA evidence linking the modern peoples in Egypt to the Ancients you trolls are still trying to make this argument that modern invading Arab-Turks in Egypt have anything to do with ancient Kham.











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Posts: 266 | From: N/A | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
Just letting everyone know that the webpage linked to in my OP was apparently taken down. Thankfully, I was able to use the Wayback Machine to find an archived version of it. The OP link has been updated.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Big O:

Despite little no aDNA evidence linking the modern peoples in Egypt to the Ancients

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Antalas:

I'm myself north african and I've never heard about such stereotype. That kind of stereotype would maybe work for egyptians and sudanese but certainly not NW africans.

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Many modern north africans consider themselves "arabs" because they're part of an arab tribe. Does that mean they are saudis living in North Africa ? Does that mean they are closer genetically to saudis than their berber or egyptian neighbours ? Of course not. We have enough of egyptian genetic results whether muslim or coptic and there isn't much difference between them but yet it seems you always avoid these results and prefer to rely on dubious biometric studies with limited set of samples...I wonder why.

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And I was honest (I can even give you his twitter account), they absolutely don't look black but look exactly like how egyptians used to depict themselves.

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I've seen plenty of pictures from these people and they didn't look as black as the people you showed me that's why I'm seriously questioning your reliability.

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These are your assumptions based on historical events but do you have any genetic evidence of such changes? Or numbers of arabs,turks,circassians who settled and mixed with the local population?

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It reminds me of these eurocentrists who assumed we were "mutts" because we absorbed too many black slaves and arabs...then the guanche paper came out and despite the lack of studies on our region, north african remains kept being found among south european remains and here again they clustered with us so don't assume military conquest equals replacement or changes.

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Again, most black slaves were NOT absorbed meaning that the admixture predated the Trans-Saharan slave trade. Also, Guanches were indeed white in appearance but they are not the only Canary Islanders. What about the others?:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.



Also Southwest Europeans i.e. Iberians are also African admixed as well. See here

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I have a hard time believing a filipino would act like this. This makes no sense, that would be like a chinese obsessing over the race of ancient germans lol

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Indeed arabized like 99% of modern "arabs".

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Not all were deported to the middle east since the middle east also relied on the east african slave trade of zanj brought from east africa through the Red Sea. And not all males were castrated only eunuchs were and women didn't have "fertility issues" they were actually prefered to men that's why most black slaves were actually women used as domestics or concubines and in the islamic world the children born from a muslim and a black concubine was considered free therefore many mulattoes integrated islamic societies and that's why we see a sex-biased pattern when it comes to haplogroups where ssa Mtdna are way more present that the paternal ones :

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Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.

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https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB24071

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Therefore why don't you acknowledge the fact that such non-metric datas show ancient egyptians to be mostly west eurasian :


"Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada (#59), 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh (#60) cluster with Northwest Indians from Punjab and Kashmir (#44), Ancient and Modern Greeks (#48), Scandinavians from Finland, Sweden and Norway (#51, #52), and Modern Germans (#53)."





This is what the paper also says :

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The initial split, suggesting the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups.

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HANIHARA, TSUNEHIKO, HAJIME ISHIDA, AND YUKIO DODO. 2003. Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121:241-251.


Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

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The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group , which is also subdivided into two subgroups. One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations. "

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Ricaut, F. X. and Waelkens, M (2008) "Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements," Human Biology: Vol. 80: Iss. 5, Article 5.

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Here dental non-metric :

12th Dynasty Northern (Lisht), Roman/Byzantine (El Hesa), and Byzantine (Kharga) Egyptians cluster with other North Africans and Europeans (Poundbury, England).

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First, this homogeneity spans both space - from the Canary Islands to Egypt, and time - from recent Arabs and Berbers to West Asian-derived Carthaginians (751?-146 BC), 18th Dynasty (1575-1380 BC) Pharonic Nubians, and 12th Dynasty (1991-1783 BC) Egyptians. A small Capsian sample (ca. 8,500-5,000 BP) from Algeria and Tunisia also exhibits many trait similarities. Late Pleistocene Nubians (14,500-12,500 BP), however, are significantly different. Second, the post-Pleistocene North Africans are similar to Europeans in that they possess numerous dental features involving morphological simplification. Any North African deviations away from this pattern are in the direction of mass-additive Sub-Saharan traits. This finding supports the results of prior genetic-based studies that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians, yet record several Sub-Saharan tendencies. Together, the two findings suggest that a morphologically simple dental pattern is shared by the indigenous peoples of North Africa, as well as Europe and perhaps western Asia, and this pattern has existed for the past 4,000 to perhaps 8,500+/- years."

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Irish J.D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155


It seems that when discussing Irish's work you missed this :

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However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)

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Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.

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Here you're generalizing, only a minority of north africans have tropically adapted limbs and such trait isn't exclusive to SSA populations, it's simply an adaptation to hot climate:

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The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.

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Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.

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You talk about "north africans" be more precise next time then.

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Euronuts? I'm not european. And there is no whitewashing, we're just acknowledging the fact that some african populations have eurasian ancestry (which can impact their phenotypes/cultures) meanwhile you just want to lump every african pop together under the label of "black" ...so who's really playing against africa here ?

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Also what do you mean by "foreign" admixture ? It was already there back in the bronze and iron age. Rural berbers aren't really different and they actually lack the additional ssa and natufian ancestry of some urban north africans.

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I see a contradiction here, you acknowledge this doesn't necessarily make them black but at the same time use this kind of argument to make any ancient population "black" or "african". So at the end you agree that some ANA among natufians doesn't mean much except that they might have north african ancestors which was already hypothesized by Lazaridis.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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I wasn't making a reference to what C. Coon considered "proto-mediterraneans". I'm talking about much recent works which show that such skulls were already similar to what is found along the med shores today but be careful some capsian skulls had SSA tendencies which they assumed was due to admixture with southern pops.

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What’s found on Mediterranean shores today like these people?:

Coon’s description of a “gracile Mediterranean” Shluh Berber native to Morocco


Tunisian Berber girls




Ms. Algeria


From a fellow North African:

Why don’t we think of north Africa as part of Africa?
by Iman Amrani


"Every time I have to declare my ethnicity I am reminded that “black African” is seemingly the only category that exists. Being both Algerian and British, I am constantly explaining why I identify as European and African – as though I’m “choosing” to be African, rather than it simply being a fact..."

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |