The Greek writer Athenaeus quotes Ptolemy VIII's memoirs as saying:
quote:And the second king of Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus [Ptolemy II] by name, as Ptolemy Euergetes relates in the third book of his Commentaries, had a great many mistresses,- namely, Didyme, who was a native of the country, and very beautiful; and Bilistiche; and, besides them, Agathocleia, and Stratonice, who had a great monument on the sea-shore, near Eleusis; and Myrtiŏn, and a great many more; as he was a man excessively addicted to amatory pleasures.
And in 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, we have Asclepiades saying about Didyme:
quote:Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.
(We could argue forever about what the Greeks meant by "black", but I thought the coal analogy was interesting insofar as it provided clearer visual imagery of how dark she would have been.)
Not much more info about her has survived, I'm afraid. But a DeviantArt buddy of mine asked me if Ptomely II having an Egyptian sidechick (among several others) might have implications for the Ptolemies' dynastic purity. Most historians say the Ptolemies as a dynasty were predominantly inbred, but it seems their male rulers at least were willing to play outside of their "official" marriages.
Of course, whether or not the Ptolemies would have nominated any of their less "legitimate" kids as heirs to the throne is another matter. But if not, what the hell would have happened to the kids from all those sidechick unions?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Thanks a lot for this heads up on fb, it has been very helpful and also informative seeing the loops people contorted themselves into trying to force Didyme to be of Kushite ancestry.
posted
seeing the loops people contorted themselves into trying to force Didyme to be of Kushite ancestry.
How would are they going through tortuous loops if the sources referenced above in part, do suggest some Kushite ancestry? If a scholar like SNowden himself proffers: "He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king."
^^Where do the so-called "tortuous loops" come in?
QUOTE: =======================
Didyme
Didyme1, a beautiful Egyptian2, mistress of Ptolemy II3. She is not otherwise known.
[1] PP VI 14719. Gr: Didumh. The name is Greek and means "twin". J. Baines, Or 54 (1985) 461, 472, notes that it could be a Greek translation of the Egyptian name &A-Htrt, also "twin", although it was more normal to Hellenise the Egyptian pronounciation. He also notes (Or 54 (1985) 461, 471) that both Greek and Egyptian forms of the name are so common in this period that it is "most improbable" that it actually denotes a twin. For the same reason, there seems no objection to an Egyptian girl being given a Greek name. Ý
[2] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f; Asclepiades, Anthologia Palatina 5.210. The Didyme of Asclepiades' epigram is not certainly the mistress of Ptolemy II, but the proposal to identify them seems very plausible. Because Asclepiades calls her "black" and compares her colour to coal, S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".
F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king. As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence. Ý
[3] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f. Ý
posted
^There are many loops they contort themselfs into for the sake of the "delusion" some might speak of. You know how religious people reason when it comes to specific passages documented in their secred text...
See Alan Cameron Tale of two Mistresses - Didyme and Asclepiades
quote:In the ordinary way skin black as coal might be thought to suggest a negro: a Nubian, say, or Ethiopian. But (as our own use of the word illustrates) when applied to skin colouring, black is a very relative term, normally implying no more than skin significantly darker than the speaker's. Can the name help? Didyme is not an uncommon name, but it is above all an *Egyptian name.* 3 Preisigke's Namenbuch (1922) cites well over one hundred undifferentiated examples of Didymos/Didyme; 4
When we encounter a dark-skinned Didyme in a Hellenistic epigram, we have every right to expect an Egyptian...
Can we identify such a woman? It seems not to have been noticed that Ptolemy Philadelphus had a mistress called Didyme, "one of the native women" ...... The source is the Memoirs of the king's great-great-grandson, Ptolemy Euergetes 11. 16 In the mouth of a Ptolemaic king, very conscious of his Macedonian blood, "native" clearly means Egyptian.
So essentially in relation to Didyme the whole plight of the egyptian characteristic can be summed up with the psycoology of Mr. Cameron, implicitly documented in this one text.
What I mean by that is Alan takes his time to establish that Didyme is nothing but egyptian, then goes on to establish her as black. What makes this interesting is the works he cite and how he cites them -J-Vocoutter - to point out the classical misconception that the Egyptians classified themselves as a different stock than the "Nubians" Via visual artistic interpretation. - Leucippe and Clitophon & Acts of Peter on the differences between egyptians and other dark skinned peoples.
quote:The Egyptians carefully distinguished themselves from their darker Nubian and Ethiopian neighbors in their art.8 But to the Greeks the Egyptians had always seemed dark-skinned. 9 A number of texts spell out the difference fairly precisely. For example, Achilles Tatius describes Nilotic pirates as "darkskinned, though not absolutely black like an Indian, but more like a half-caste Ethiopian, .10 Particularly explicit is the description in the probably second-century Acts of Peter of a demonic female as "a pure Ethiopian, not Egyptian but completely black. , 11 Inside Egypt skin colour was naturally an important identifying characteristic, and personal descriptions in official documents regularly specify whether an individual is dark- or light-skinned. 12
Notice these depictions are Post Common era descriptions. As you read further into this piece you'll see classical descriptions clustering Egyptians with Ethiopians and such. And the final point is the actual description of Didyme herself, Native & comparable to coal. So How relative are we supposed to consider the following classical depictions of Aegyptians in general...
quote:simply call Egyptians "black" or "dark." Herodotus, for example, uses "μελαγχροε" (2.104). To the Greek Ammianus (22.16.23) Aegyptii plurique subfusculi sunt et atrati. The Ps.- Aristotelian Physiognomonica classifies the Egyptians together with the Ethiopians as (άγάν μέλανες), a sign (the writer alleges) of cowardice.13 In Aeschylus, the Danaids refer to themselves as(μελανθές ήλιόκτυπου γένος). 14 In the anonymous fragment(...), "make Egyptian" means "make dark." To judge by the titles of numerous lost plays, Athenian audiences were fascinated by stories of Egypt, and it is likely that Egyptians were distinguished from Greeks on stage by appropriately painted masks, just as black and white complexions are clearly differentiated in Greek vase painting.15
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
How would are they going through tortuous loops if the sources referenced above in part, do suggest some Kushite ancestry?
[2] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f; Asclepiades, Anthologia Palatina 5.210. The Didyme of Asclepiades' epigram is not certainly the mistress of Ptolemy II, but the proposal to identify them seems very plausible. Because Asclepiades calls her "black" and compares her colour to coal, S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".
F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king. As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.
The *loops* being the automatic equation of blackness with Kushite (and more importantly non-Egyptian ancestry), as if the AE were not black themselves. Same thing when they make sensationalist crap like that "Black Pharaohs" documentary. Nubia/Kush's uncontestable blackness is used against the notion of Egypt's indigenous citizenry being black. Both Snowden and Lefkowitz try and pull this.
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^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
How would are they going through tortuous loops if the sources referenced above in part, do suggest some Kushite ancestry?
[2] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f; Asclepiades, Anthologia Palatina 5.210. The Didyme of Asclepiades' epigram is not certainly the mistress of Ptolemy II, but the proposal to identify them seems very plausible. Because Asclepiades calls her "black" and compares her colour to coal, S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".
F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king. As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.
The *loops* being the automatic equation of blackness with Kushite (and more importantly non-Egyptian ancestry), as if the AE were not black themselves. Same thing when they make sensationalist crap like that "Black Pharaohs" documentary. Nubia/Kush's uncontestable blackness is used against the notion of Egypt's indigenous citizenry being black. Both Snowden and Lefkowitz try and pull this.
This. You can tell they're struggling to parse Didyme's descriptions through their ingrained preconceptions of what ancient Egyptians and Kushites would have looked like. It doesn't seem to occur to them that maybe those preconceptions might be in error in the first place.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.
I think in the classical world, strangely enough, it commonly accepted that Greeks and Romans classified Egyptians as black. It is only modern day Europeans who seem to be confused here. One of the more popular myths of Ancient Greece was that of Busiris, a mythical King of Egypt, killed by Hercules/Heracles. And he was often portrayed as a stereotypical "negroid", even caricatured.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.
I think in the classical world, strangely enough, it commonly accepted that Greeks and Romans classified Egyptians as black. It is only modern day Europeans who seem to be confused here. One of the more popular myths of Ancient Greece was that of Busiris, a mythical King of Egypt, killed by Hercules/Heracles. And he was often portrayed as a stereotypical "negroid", even caricatured.
Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.
Snowden may be black but he has a track record of racist interpretations. He should be treated with the same caution as any other racist scholar.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.
Nobody is denying that the Greeks or other peoples didn't acknowledge nuances in complexion with Africans further south being darker, however where in the texts did it say anything about "deep black"??
This is the mental gymnastics that Punos_Rey speaks of. There are many Greco-Roman texts that describe Egyptians as being simply 'black' so if this Didyme woman is described as the same, then what makes her Kushite or un-Egyptian?? The fact that the Ptolemies mixed with native Egyptians is no surprise as can be seen in the skull of Cleopatra's sister.
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.
I don't know about Herakles depicted as "negroid", but in many descriptions he is depicted as relatively dark in complexion due to the fact that he is Pelopenesian in ancestry. Funny how people are quick to point out color nuiances in Africans but not Europeans. Even the Greeks noted a difference in complexion between southern Peloponesians and northern Macedonians.
quote:Snowden may be black but he has a track record of racist interpretations. He should be treated with the same caution as any other racist scholar.
Snowden unfortunately is himself a victim of the racist science of his time as well as the racist academia he made his way into. As a black man in the field of 'Classical' history his position was itself very precarious. Also considering the racial science that existed at the time, he didnt have much a choice but to abide by the concept of "true negro" stereotype and exclude any and all blacks who don't fit that stereotype as "caucasoid". Thankfully times have changed and there are white classicists like Dr. Sally-Ann Ashton who read the Greco-Roman descriptions of the Egyptians for what they were.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by africurious: [qb] Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.
I don't know about Herakles depicted as "negroid", but in many descriptions he is depicted as relatively dark in complexion due to the fact that he is Pelopenesian in ancestry. Funny how people are quick to point out color nuiances in Africans but not Europeans. Even the Greeks noted a difference in complexion between southern Peloponesians and northern Macedonians.
quote:
I think this is the image of the Black Hercules, portrayed even with what looks like kinky hair: Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.
I don't know about Herakles depicted as "negroid", but in many descriptions he is depicted as relatively dark in complexion due to the fact that he is Pelopenesian in ancestry. Funny how people are quick to point out color nuiances in Africans but not Europeans. Even the Greeks noted a difference in complexion between southern Peloponesians and northern Macedonians.
He's been depicted with the tightly curled hair only seen among ppl labelled "negroid", dark or black skin and rounded nose. Wish I could find the depiction I'm thinking of with the rounded nose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote: [QUOTE][qb]Originally posted by africurious: [qb] Snowden may be black but he has a track record of racist interpretations. He should be treated with the same caution as any other racist scholar.
Snowden unfortunately is himself a victim of the racist science of his time as well as the racist academia he made his way into. As a black man in the field of 'Classical' history his position was itself very precarious. Also considering the racial science that existed at the time, he didnt have much a choice but to abide by the concept of "true negro" stereotype and exclude any and all blacks who don't fit that stereotype as "caucasoid". Thankfully times have changed and there are white classicists like Dr. Sally-Ann Ashton who read the Greco-Roman descriptions of the Egyptians for what they were.
I wouldn't let Snowden off the hook so easily. There were other black scholars of his time who didn't buy into the racist crap they were taught. It was that he just didn't want to buck the system to secure his career, he was one of the proponents of certain racist teachings and vilifiers of people who said otherwise. Yea times have changed but only somewhat. Yurco, for example, is an almost current example of the anthropologist version of Snowden with the gymnastics. And i'm tired of still reading veiled racialist-informed genetic studies in current times. Love Sally Ashton.
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posted
^ What you fail to understand is that it is convention in Greek pottery painting to have men especially in modes of action to be painted black.
Theseus slaying the Minotaur
And when I said that Greeks depicted Herakles as having darker complexion, I am referring to the actual legends and myths preserved in the written texts. The legends simply said he was of dark complexion and not actually 'black'. Herakles was of the Dorian tribe of Greeks that took over the southern peninsula of the peloponesus.
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posted
^mode of action is cool and all but did you see mansamusa's pic with dark skin and the 'fro? The same fro' depicted on busiris's men (the egyptians)? Come on, man, I wasn't being that simple. I'm well aware that not every blacked out individual in such art is a black person. That's obvious. That wasn't what I was referring to.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What you fail to understand is that it is convention in Greek pottery painting to have men especially in modes of action to be painted black.
Theseus slaying the Minotaur
And when I said that Greeks depicted Herakles as having darker complexion, I am referring to the actual legends and myths preserved in the written texts. The legends simply said he was of dark complexion and not actually 'black'. Herakles was of the Dorian tribe of Greeks that took over the southern peninsula of the peloponesus.
The image was depicted on the cover of this book: The Classical authors who have reviewed the book all seem to agree that the Heracles depicted within that particular image was "Black". The cover was obviously chosen for that reason, especially when we take into account the title of the book!
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posted
Come on guys, lets keep it in context. Africa is right next to Greece in the Mediterranean. We know for a fact that Africans were migrating from Africa to Europe from Greece and the Mediterranean for thousands of years. We see evidence in the Minoans, in the Etruscans and from the Greeks themselves in art, literature and culture. How often do we see "Aethiopia" in Greek literature? How often do we see Greek myths including figures from Libya, Aethiopia or Egypt? Who was Memnon? Black Africans are all over ancient Greek culture and some of their greatest historians openly claimed that much of their culture came from Africa. So none of this stuff should be a shock or really even that big of a deal. Note that two of the most beautiful women in Greek myth are Aethiopian women: Andromeda and Cassiopeia.
Most Greek deities, just like most from other ancient cultures are archetypes. Hercules is the supreme archetype of the hunter gatherer society. Hence he can be African or European as they were both hunter gatherer societies for much of their history.
Many folks are starting to get it but we who supposedly knew all along aren't.
Some images from a game showing black deities reflecting actual historical black culture and influence in Greece (From Magic the Gathering card game):
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nobody is denying that the Greeks or other peoples didn't acknowledge nuances in complexion with Africans further south being darker, however where in the texts did it say anything about "deep black"??
This is the mental gymnastics that Punos_Rey speaks of. There are many Greco-Roman texts that describe Egyptians as being simply 'black' so if this Didyme woman is described as the same, then what makes her Kushite or un-Egyptian?? The fact that the Ptolemies mixed with native Egyptians is no surprise as can be seen in the skull of Cleopatra's sister.
I get that much of it, however from most of what I've read going back to the historians themselves the greeks were very definitive in ways which they classified race. If the subject had dark skin, they would be Indian or Aethiopian... If they have the characteristic kinky/wooly hair their probably Aegyptian/Aethiopan. Modern interpretations seem to add this dramatic element of "relativity" to maintain whatever preconceptions we're occupied. However it gets confusing, for the fact that someone could be flat out recorded as being an Aegyptian (by the ancients) for the simple fact that they were black, not tanned but black as coal... Us of today are debating whether the subject is an implant because of the physical descriptions of these people... It's a mess.
I don't recall deep black being used by any historian off the top of my head, but apparently the folks such as Snowden believes that the Greeks had a pigment grading system to which they check off who belongs to where by how dark they are... It's garbage reasoning, considering if that is true, it'd be widely inconsistent... As it stands now, there is no reason to believe Didyme was anything but Egyptian as well as likes of Meheripri and the Armanas.
And in regards to the Ptolemaic-Egyptian relations, yep I was think about Cleos sister when I was reading about didyme....who these people were is quite evident.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Re-examining mythological, never a real live person, Herakles' ancestry reveals his Egypto-African line of descent.
Perseus is partly of Egypto-African descent Herakles is Perseus' great grand son, and Aithiop Andromeda's great grand son. So, their son Electryon is half Levantine Aithiop and the other is half 'diluted Egyptian' lineage. Herakles is Electryon's grand son, ergo ... ?
First seen in this light when reading Joel Augustus Rogers and Edward L Jones in late youth. Then, as an adult vendor, selling George Wells Parker, John Wm Norris, Rufus L Perry, and Drusilla Dunjee Houston, all authors from 100 years ago and essential to the general topic, divorcing this aspect of Africana from benign European ethnocentricity ("B.E.E. stings").
A people without history, a country, or a flag would be a most extraordinary circumstance yet owing to misplaced facts it is in this light the Negro is regarded. The day has come however, for a fixed Negro status and this must necessarily be based upon ancestry.
Ambitions and aspirations are inspired largely by pride in our ancestors. Owing to a lack of knowledge or source of information easily accessible we have remained in ignorance to a great extent of the history of Negro peo- ples. The average school history contains little or noth- ing, leaving the Negro youth in the darkness of despair.
To-day things are assuming a new aspect and in order to meet the new issues we must needs have an enlarged vision. The narrow confines which have so long held us have been outgrown.
Descendants of kings and princes and illustrious personages we have been denied the smallest item of their achievements, reciting ever and anon the glories of other races, yet always craving tangible assurance of our own origin. If this little volume of sketches tends in any way to allay this longing we shall feel well paid for our effort.
HISTORICAL SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT NEGRO: A compilation by Edward E Carlisle Josephine E Carlisle Boston, Massachusetts copyright 1920 THE COSMOS PRESS Cambridge, Mass
- A luta continua - - The struggle continues - - The struggle is continuous -
NOTE: Andromeda is another super-pretty black woman same as Ptolemy's "Thomasina" though, apparently, the latter escaped the wrath of jealous deity.
The Classical authors who have reviewed the book all seem to agree that the Heracles depicted within that particular image was "Black". The cover was obviously chosen for that reason, especially when we take into account the title of the book!
a customer review on Amazon:
The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity
2.0 out of 5 stars Also recommended is "Begrimed and Black" by theologian Robert E Reviewed in the United States on February 20, 2018 This title is a bit of a bookish version of clickbait, for the book under that title does not address what moderns understand as "racism" at all. As stated by James Dee in Byrn Mawr Classical Review, "Alert readers will have noticed the absence of any chapter on "blacks" or "Africans," however those terms might be defined. Isaac refers instead to the well-known works of Frank Snowden, Lloyd Thompson, and others, though one would have welcomed the application of his incisive intelligence to this often bitterly-disputed realm." Having read this book I can verify this--the "racism" Isaac contends to have been invented in the classical world did not focus on blacks (or even on skin color at all), as the aforementioned classicists have amply demonstrated in their seminal works on the subject. (Thompson's "Romans and Blacks" and Snowden's "Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience" Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks". Also recommended is "Begrimed and Black" by theologian Robert E. Hood) What's left for Issac is simply cultural prejudice, which he casts as "proto-racism". OK. But to me that is a very fraught linkage; white Romans describing white Gauls as "good goat herders" is hardly on the same level as literally demonizing an entire group of people based on the color of their skin alone. No, that task would be left to Fortunatianus, Bishop of Aquileia. His mid-fourth century work, later referenced by Jerome in composing the Vulgate Bible, is the very first example from antiquity linking dark skin color to innate evil. Therein, Fortunatianus declares the "dark men of Ethiopia" to be so by virtue of being "stained by sin"--and goes on to condemn the Jews as also, but figuratively, so stained by sin. Thus the linkage of dark skin color to sin was first introduced--which tragically persisted throughout the subsequent centuries of Christendom, even to the present day.
posted
Getting back to the topic, I find it funny that whenever a 'Classical' (Greco-Roman) description of Egyptians as "black" is given, it is automatically presumed they were not true Egyptians but rather "Ethiopians" or Nubians even though nowhere in the text is this conjecture indicated.
Either the subjects described are dismissed as not truly Egyptian OR modern people try to dismiss the word 'black' as being used as a descriptor but instead try to translate or reinterpret the word as "dark" or even "brown" when the original Greek word used was melanchro which means black or blackened as in something burnt or charred and NOT merely darkened or sun-tanned which is what many Greeks especially in the south were themselves.
Aristotle (384 – 322 B.C.E.), Physiognomics-- “Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two.” Lucian (125 B.C.E.), Navigations-- [describing an Egyptian] "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin..."
Ammianus Marcellinus (330 C.E., died c. 391 – 400 C.E.)-- "..the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny desiccated look"
Aeschylus (525/524 – 456/455 B.C.E.) [when describing the Egyptians] "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics."
Appollodorus (180 B.C.E. – after 120 B.C.E.)--"Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself"
Even the Greek myth of Phaethon nearly crashing the chariot of the sun into the southern lands i.e. lands south of Thalassa (the Mediterranean) as the reason why the peoples of the continent of Libya (Africa) including Egypt and Aethiopia had melanchroe/black skin because they were scorched by the sun.
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb:
I learned about this character from Ptolemaic Egyptian history this very morning.
The Greek writer Athenaeus quotes Ptolemy VIII's memoirs as saying:
quote:And the second king of Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus [Ptolemy II] by name, as Ptolemy Euergetes relates in the third book of his Commentaries, had a great many mistresses,- namely, Didyme, who was a native of the country, and very beautiful; and Bilistiche; and, besides them, Agathocleia, and Stratonice, who had a great monument on the sea-shore, near Eleusis; and Myrtiŏn, and a great many more; as he was a man excessively addicted to amatory pleasures.
And in 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, we have Asclepiades saying about Didyme:
quote:Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.
(We could argue forever about what the Greeks meant by "black", but I thought the coal analogy was interesting insofar as it provided clearer visual imagery of how dark she would have been.)
Not much more info about her has survived, I'm afraid. But a DeviantArt buddy of mine asked me if Ptomely II having an Egyptian sidechick (among several others) might have implications for the Ptolemies' dynastic purity. Most historians say the Ptolemies as a dynasty were predominantly inbred, but it seems their male rulers at least were willing to play outside of their "official" marriages.
Of course, whether or not the Ptolemies would have nominated any of their less "legitimate" kids as heirs to the throne is another matter. But if not, what the hell would have happened to the kids from all those sidechick unions?
What we know about the Ptolemies is that since the death of Alexander the Great and their consolidation of their rule over Egypt, they made their capital city of Alexandria a colonial city and forbade natives (Egyptians) from entering the city except as slaves or domestic servants. That some Egyptian women entered into the royal household as concubines shouldn't come as shock, the question however is how many children from such unions became official members of the royal family? The Ptolemies typically kept their bloodlines 'pure' by either marrying Macedonian relatives or by incest through sibling marriages being practiced across several generations. We know that the famed Cleopatra VII Philopator had a a half-sister Arsinoë IV who was a royal princess, daughter of their father Ptolemy XII Auletes but by an unknown woman was found to be mixed-race with her skull showing African traits. It's probable that Arsinoë's mother was a concubine yet Arsinoë was still made a member of the royal family so there's not telling how much Egyptian/African ancestry the Ptolemy family may have had even though they upheld a policy that in Alexandria only those who could trace Greek or Macedonian ancestry on both sides of the family can participate in the gymnasium. In fact as part of their chauvinist attitude, the vast majority of Ptolemies didn't even speak the Egyptian language and Cleopatra VII was the first known to be fluent in Egyptian and participate fully in Egyptian religion specifically the cult of Isis.
Was Cleopatra herself mixed?? It's possible though we don't know for sure since her remains have yet to be discovered. Some people make that conclusion based solely on the remains of her half-sister as well as the fact Cleopatra's own mother is not named in surviving texts and was presumed to be either her father's wife Cleopatra VI or some other close relative named Cleopatra.
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quote:We know that the famed Cleopatra VII Philopator had a a half-sister Arsinoë IV who was a royal princess, daughter of their father Ptolemy XII Auletes but by an unknown woman was found to be mixed-race with her skull showing African traits. It's probable that Arsinoë's mother was a concubine yet Arsinoë was still made a member of the royal family so there's not telling how much Egyptian/African ancestry the Ptolemy family may have had even though they upheld a policy that in Alexandria only those who could trace Greek or Macedonian ancestry on both sides of the family can participate in the gymnasium. In fact as part of their chauvinist attitude, the vast majority of Ptolemies didn't even speak the Egyptian language and Cleopatra VII was the first known to be fluent in Egyptian and participate fully in Egyptian religion specifically the cult of Isis.
Was Cleopatra herself mixed?? It's possible though we don't know for sure since her remains have yet to be discovered. Some people make that conclusion based solely on the remains of her half-sister as well as the fact Cleopatra's own mother is not named in surviving texts and was presumed to be either her father's wife Cleopatra VI or some other close relative named Cleopatra.
I think Cleopatra VII being the first Ptolemy to speak the Egyptian language would be consistent with her having native Egyptian ancestry on her mother's side. As for the policy about Greeks or Macedonians having exclusive rights to the gymnasium, I don't think that would have been an issue for Ptolemaic women since (IIRC) only men could participate in the Greek gynasium.
posted
^ The points you raise are the reasons why some Egyptologists like Toby Wilkinson believe Cleopatra to be of mixed ancestry. By the way, she's not the first Ptolemy to speak Egyptian but to be fluent in it. The Ptolemies no doubt knew some Egyptian to communicate with native officials in their circle but Cleopatra was said to be the first to speak it fluently. There is much to be said about the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt. Many scholars say that their rule was very tenuous at best. The Ptolemies like many Hellenists were chauvinists that ruled the country from a largely segregated city with few natives being allowed in. That said, they allowed the nomarchs to have autonomy in their various nomes. No doubt the natives resented such disdainful foreigners but still appeared to tolerate them perhaps because of the relative freedom. Of course Cleopatra was the most beloved since she was the one Ptolemy that made more gestures to the common people than any and took the most roles in national religious rituals.
Of course we can't be certain about Cleo's ancestry until we have her remains.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Interestingly Doc Ben(1971), of all people, posited since Soter there was marriage with Egyptian women and describes his dynasty as a "blood bath".
Personally? My thought is Ms Cleo was Greek w/no (or very little if any) African lineage. I dunno but pussy whippin and suckin off male would-be conquerors doesn't seem part of any other African queen's military/diplomatic arsenal.
BTW she was conversant in several languages.
Just because I have kids on Eurasian mommies doesn't turn my heirs on their African mommy into Eurasians.
African Cleo remains an ethnocentric wishful thinking will-o-the-wisp. AE history is full of resourceful and dominant rulers like Hatsheput and 'high priestesses' like in that Libyan dynasty before Piye's 'invasion'.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Interestingly Doc Ben(1971), of all people, posited since Soter there was marriage with Egyptian women and describes his dynasty as a "blood bath".
I know that Alexander the Great's generals who became his Diadochi (successors) emulated Alexander's example of marrying native women of the regions they ruled so as to establish some cultural ties to the territories. An example of this would be Seleucus I Nicator founder of the Seleucid Empire and dynasty whose wife was some Iranic noblewoman. But how often or consistent they were doing this is another question. From what I recall, their children and descendants primarily took Macedonian and Greek wives thereafter and in the case of the Ptolemies there was a lot of incest. I get the impression that these Diadochi initially intermarried with locals to establish some legitimacy to their rule but then afterwards try to dilute that foreign ancestry with subsequent Macedonian and Greek marriages or as we say today "white-wash" their pedigree.
As for the dynasty being a "blood bath". That description can be applied to all the Diodachi dynasties since the Partition of Triparadisus after Alexander's death. The empire was to be divided among Alexander's family but his generals didn't even honor that agreement and even resorted to murdering his family members after which they fought wars against each other. They turned all of Western Asia and Egypt into a bloody mess! The funny thing is that most of Egypt never bothered with the Ptolemies for the very reason that they were f*cked up foreigners in their eyes and most of their alliances came from wealthy Delta nomarchs who got rich off the Mediterranean port and caravan trades that the Ptolemies military might ensured them.
quote:Personally? My thought is Ms Cleo was Greek w/no (or very little if any) African lineage. I dunno but pussy whippin and suckin off male would-be conquerors doesn't seem part of any other African queen's military/diplomatic arsenal.
Well regardless of her actual ancestry Cleo grew up in a Hellenic household with whatever cultural mores on women that held. Whatever native African women she was exposed to was in the form of domestic servants if not priestesses in the Isis cult she was involved in. So no I never expected her behavior to be that of the typical Egyptian royal woman.
quote:BTW she was conversant in several languages.
Yes, besides Greek and Egyptian she was said to know a variety of Asiatic languages including Aramaic and Persian. This was part of her role as a shrewd woman in trade and commerce.
quote:Just because I have kids on Eurasian mommies doesn't turn my heirs on their African mommy into Eurasians.
African Cleo remains an ethnocentric wishful thinking will-o-the-wisp. AE history is full of resourceful and dominant rulers like Hatsheput and 'high priestesses' like in that Libyan dynasty before Piye's 'invasion'.
I find it ironic that many Afrocentrics obsess over Cleo simply because Euros have romanticized her for a long time from Shakespeare to that Hollywood Elizabeth Taylor portrayal. Apparently many don't realize while she was the queen of an African country, she was a colonial one of foreign descent. Again did she have native ancestry? It's possible even probable considering the remains of her half-sister.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
As usual, thx 4/t Classical Era background clarity.
now ... Devil's Advocate here.
So, Washington and Jefferson's yte legitimate kids are probably 1/2 blk cos father sired mulatto bastard kids on no-choice-but-to-fuck-'massa' blk girls?
Does the same logic hold to judge Mai Iluma's kids on a Bornu wife as 1/2 Turk since he had kids on a Circassian sex slave girl or two?
Logical probability or special pleading fallacy?
=-=-=-=
Ah, the poor poor Ptolemies
Greeks to Egyptians
Egyptians to Romans
Poor Cleo a skilled extremely talented and decent person a teen queen adept at intrigue trying to save and expand her decadent realm vilified by Greco-Latin authors mythologized by all ever after
=-=-=-=
Back before "Afrocentric" became the buzz, the degreed ones were clear that "blk Cleo" et al are not the concern of Afrocentrism.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: As usual, thx 4/t Classical Era background clarity.
now ... Devil's Advocate here.
So, Washington and Jefferson's yte legitimate kids are probably 1/2 blk cos father sired mulatto bastard kids on no-choice-but-to-fuck-'massa' blk girls?
Does the same logic hold to judge Mai Iluma's kids on a Bornu wife as 1/2 Turk since he had kids on a Circassian sex slave girl or two?
Logical probability or special pleading fallacy?
Neither. More like differing situational factors. Washington and Jefferson were colonial elites in a foreign land that they were not actual rulers of. Their slave concubines were also people of a foreign land. The Ptolemies were colonial elites who more or less rule over the natives they colonized via the natives' government institution and as far as we know their concubines who were native citizens were not slaves but free women perhaps even of noble birth. Cleo's half-sister Princess Arsinoë who was mixed was a full member of the royal and even had enough clout to try to oust Cleo so definitely these were not some side-lined children.
quote:=-=-=-= Ah, the poor poor Ptolemies
Greeks to Egyptians
Egyptians to Romans
Poor Cleo a skilled extremely talented and decent person a teen queen adept at intrigue trying to save and expand her decadent realm vilified by Greco-Latin authors mythologized by all ever after
To the contrary, I think the Romans viewed the Ptolemies as Greeks more culturally akin to themselves than the indigenous Egyptians and thus easy subject to their rule just like the rest of the Hellenized world i.e. Greece, Anatolia, and the some of the Seleucid Realm that they usurped. Of course the Romans vilified her as a "rogue" woman whose ambitions exceeded her 'sex' so to speak but interestingly her actions were not atypical of her Macedonian predecessors namely women of Alexander the Great's family-- Olympias, Cynane, and Eurydice II.
quote:=-=-=-= Back before "Afrocentric" became the buzz, the degreed ones were clear that "blk Cleo" et al are not the concern of Afrocentrism.
Dr. Molefi Kete Asante Race in Antiquity Published 5/19/2009
.
I should've clarified that not the Afrocentric serious scholars but mostly laypeople. And ironically, even white sectors of Hollywood entertained the notion.
quote:=-=-=-= Can somebody please vet the two pertinent words below for valid translation from the primary Latin document?
in keeping with my profile signature below re Africana
Which two words are you referring to?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Djehuti we've known each other for over a decade. We've supported each others' findings and often supplemented each others knowledge base. So I'm going to be raw (explicit and disregard niceties).
Which two words? What? R u kiddin me? Looks like someone didn't read the quote? The 2 pertinent words about Cleo's colour. What else?
Oh yeah, there's them African servants one poster surmised, but that's well over two words in length telling of variety in skin colour and hair texture.
DJ, how can you talk your way around equivalancies I've drawn for men of power with legitimate heirs from wives of their own race vs bastards from sex slaves. Why special plead a favored case in the face of parsimony -- the matrilineity of the legitimate is unaffected by their sibling-same- father by mother of subjected race whether.
This holds water regardless if African potentates with Turk wenches, Washington and Jefferson with "Brown Sugar"s, or any Ptolemy with their African concubines.
The concubine-mother cannot effect the race of the wife-mother's children. It's simply impossible.
This isn't intellectualism. We have hundreds of years of Arabic speakers specifically choosing each concubine from a different race so they will have children half of that race. My black son is neither probably or possibly part 'white' because he has siblings who have white mothers be they pink, beige, or 'olive'. This isn't sophistry, I'm talking day to day practiced living reality perhaps unknown to your average western[=white] socialized person totally unfamiliar with, and ashamed of, any but the epitomized non-Mormon white Christian society one husband one wife supposedly no-cheating nuclear family.
Socially recognized mistress, side squeeze, one nighter, whatever do not and cannot effect the legal wife's issue because it's not from any of their wombs. Hence popular usage "My brother from a different mother."
Most of y'all just simply would not understand polygyny, less lone racial polygyny. Djehuti, is this alien to the common man Pinoy family structures before the Spanish? Are there families with some Tisoy 1/2 siblings? Does this make all Pinoy suspect Tisoy?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Djehuti we've known each other for over a decade. We've supported each others' findings and often supplemented each others knowledge base. So I'm going to be raw (explicit and disregard niceties).
Which two words? What? R u kiddin me? Looks like someone didn't read the quote? The 2 pertinent words about Cleo's colour. What else?
Sorry, but I wish you were more specific as I didn't know you were referring to Cleo's description. I read only her "white breasts" and the rest about her white dress.
Though I don't see how this could discount the possibility of mixed ancestry.
Meghan Markle
Halsey
quote:Oh yeah, there's them African servants one poster surmised, but that's well over two words in length telling of variety in skin colour and hair texture.
DJ, how can you talk your way around equivalancies I've drawn for men of power with legitimate heirs from wives of their own race vs bastards from sex slaves. Why special plead a favored case in the face of parsimony -- the matrilineity of the legitimate is unaffected by their sibling-same- father by mother of subjected race whether.
This holds water regardless if African potentates with Turk wenches, Washington and Jefferson with "Brown Sugar"s, or any Ptolemy with their African concubines.
The concubine-mother cannot effect the race of the wife-mother's children. It's simply impossible.
This isn't intellectualism. We have hundreds of years of Arabic speakers specifically choosing each concubine from a different race so they will have children half of that race. My black son is neither probably or possibly part 'white' because he has siblings who have white mothers be they pink, beige, or 'olive'. This isn't sophistry, I'm talking day to day practiced living reality perhaps unknown to your average western[=white] socialized person totally unfamiliar with, and ashamed of, any but the epitomized non-Mormon white Christian society one husband one wife supposedly no-cheating nuclear family.
Socially recognized mistress, side squeeze, one nighter, whatever do not and cannot effect the legal wife's issue because it's not from any of their wombs. Hence popular usage "My brother from a different mother."
Most of y'all just simply would not understand polygyny, less lone racial polygyny. Djehuti, is this alien to the common man Pinoy family structures before the Spanish? Are there families with some Tisoy 1/2 siblings? Does this make all Pinoy suspect Tisoy?
This is all dependent on the cultural dynamics of power and legitimacy. There is a difference between slave concubines and free concubines and especially those who may be of high status as the Greek texts seem to imply that the women in the Ptolemy harem were not common. And then there is also the possibility of full wife status as I pointed out the Diadochi did marry native women to establish their power. I don't see what made Soter any different and judging by the book you cited by Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan, he wasn't since he married a royal princess called Hadra. Cleo's half-sister Arsinoe showed mixed African ancestry yet she was legitimate enough to have the royal title of princess.
And yes, as a Pinoy I do understand because of Spanish colonization. Many a Spanish conquistador or Don had both native Filipina wives as well as concubines. Traditional Catholic and Orthodox Christianity while not accepting polygamy did tolerate concubinage though still viewing it as unseemly. How else do you explain the Mestizo class in the Philippines though not quite as large as that in Latin America for the obvious reason that the Spanish colonial presence wasn't as great in the Philippines as in the Americas.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Bottomline: Arsinoe's mother is NOT Cleopatra's mother. They have separate maternal lineages (mtDNA) They have separate autosomal inheritances. Forensic genomics cannot show Cleo w/Arsinoe's African matrilineity. ~ The END ~
=-=-=-=
Whaaat? White breasts are an indicator of black admixture? Obviously only arguing to be arguing. Illogical special pleading continues with notions immediately rejected were the races reversed. If a quote in literature called a yte/euro woman's breasts ebony instead of white you and everybody else on ES would not take her for a mix but rather redblack at the least. How long will you continue to front this flimsiest of 'testimony' for a mulata or quadroona Cleo when she was less than an octroona (per Doc Ben's earlier posted yet to be vetted declaration the founding mother of the dynasty was Egyptian or black).
None my kin with more aMazigh blood than me have white breasts. No 'euro' mix blk woman nor recent 'afr' mix yte woman of my nearly five decades of sexual experience had white breasts, you know, with clearly blue veins and pink nipples, or maybe you don't know. Now that's what yte/euro ppl, like author Lucan, call white breasts. Real white breasts, not manila, not beige.
Ever had any Aegean or south Slav white/Euro women? The white breasts on a Greek woman are white not beige. Further north the Balkans some women have somewhat brownish nipples on breasts still whiter than beige.
Show me anything in literature outside of this solo AE poem[*] And I don't mean 5+ generations admixed yalla 'Black' Americans.
of an African with "shiny white breasts," but as in Lucan's quoted terms, left undiscolored by sheer fabric, but beaming through it. ??You betcha, sure sounds like evidence of blkmix??
quote: Her white breasts shine through the Sidonian fabric,
. Show me any actual mulata or quadroona titties w/white breasts references. Man please, you'd have to get to an octroona before any hope of white breasts.
RHETORICAL QUESTION: Do you agree or disagree with the following w/o any yeah buts? On Earth as a rule with few exceptions white women have naked white/near white/off-white pink breasts. black women have naked drkbrwn/mdbrwn/ltbwn breasts ranging from charcoalgrey/brown to wheat.
[*] First read it as a youth and have always questioned it until mid-life with heightened consciousness of AE as an African black founded kingdom and civilization but a multi-ethnic nation. One thing seems very certain about Cleo she was the Egyptian ptolemy and I think her displays of Egyptian culture and lingual talents grant her status a 'legitimatized' pharaoh-queen of Egypt.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Of the fifteen Ptolemaic marriages, ten were between brother and sister while two were with a niece or cousin. This meant that even Cleopatra VII, the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt and the subject of playwrights, poets, and movies, was not Egyptian but Macedonian.
A Macedonian woman I know clearly distinguishes Greek from Macedonian. Having a Greek yaya she wasn't militant about it and agreed to Hellene cultured Macedonians ruling Egypt.
posted
Lucan was born sixty-nine years after Cleopatra VII's death. There is no way he would have seen her in person. Has anyone considered that he might have been taking creative liberties by portraying her according to traditional Italian ideals of beauty?
posted
I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.
He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.
posted
^ Last I checked the Fur are a Nilo-Saharan people who are also victims of Arab terror and enslavement hence the Darfur genocide and ethnic cleansing. The very name 'Darfur' means Land of the Fur.
Beyoku, I think I know what book you're referring to and it was cited here before, and it is disgusting! The ghazwa ul Sudan or 'Raid of Africa' by the Arabs wasn't bad enough but what is happening in modern times by their mentally colonized and Arabized African successors is as bad if not worse!
Getting back to the topic. Tukuler, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that Cleopatra VII was mixed. I'm just saying there exists the possibility. Her half-sister Arsinoe was never considered a bastard child but rather a royal princess. In fact, it's not even certain who Cleopatra's mother was and it's only presumed to be Ptolemy XII's wife Cleopatra V!
One thing I forgot to point out. In Egyptian culture especially among the elites polygamy was the norm with the king having a harem whereas in Greco-Roman culture monogamy was practiced albeit alongside concubinage. I'm thinking some sort of commutuality was practiced where a Ptolemy king had one official wife but his other concubines especially if they were elite natives still had privileges in the royal court and their children were not bastardized but could still could be full-fledged members of the royal family.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.
He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.
Are you saying he called the Fur people Arabs?
No, sorry if i didn't make that clear. The FUR were ALSO being enslaved by Arabs. But he noted the Fur were Darker than the Dinka.
From OUR standpoint, and the standpoint of many Westerners regardless of the nuance they have we likely see ALL of them as some of the darkest people on the continent.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
<<Most of y'all just simply would not understand polygyny, less lone racial polygyny. Djehuti, is this alien to the common man Pinoy family structures before the Spanish? Are there families with some Tisoy 1/2 siblings? Does this make all Pinoy suspect Tisoy?>>
This is all dependent on the cultural dynamics of power and legitimacy. There is a difference between slave concubines and free concubines and especially those who may be of high status as the Greek texts seem to imply that the women in the Ptolemy harem were not common. And then there is also the possibility of full wife status as I pointed out the Diadochi did marry native women to establish their power. I don't see what made Soter any different and judging by the book you cited by Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan, he wasn't since he married a royal princess called Hadra. Cleo's half-sister Arsinoe showed mixed African ancestry yet she was legitimate enough to have the royal title of princess.
And yes, as a Pinoy I do understand because of Spanish colonization. Many a Spanish conquistador or Don had both native Filipina wives as well as concubines. Traditional Catholic and Orthodox Christianity while not accepting polygamy did tolerate concubinage though still viewing it as unseemly. How else do you explain the Mestizo class in the Philippines though not quite as large as that in Latin America for the obvious reason that the Spanish colonial presence wasn't as great in the Philippines as in the Americas.
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Multi-tasking Be back atcha in a bit
&
thx 4 an interesting and enlightening exchange but then what else to expect? You get choice not chance at a DJ Djehuti ES dance
OK now the back atcha
I was hoping for insight on sexual sociology like Magindanao taking Mandaya as sex slaves, admittedly a Muslim practice.
Looking for the practical more than the theoretical.
Perhaps confusion on my part stems from not knowing the birth of Pinoy identity. When did national consciousness embrace the multitude Philippine Is tribes and ethnic groups. Are any indigenees excluded from it. Does the Pinoy Tisoy distinction only hold for diaspora? What defines a Tisoy? Totally foreign admixture or loss of culture or ???
Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Lucan was born sixty-nine years after Cleopatra VII's death. There is no way he would have seen her in person. Has anyone considered that he might have been taking creative liberties by portraying her according to traditional Italian ideals of beauty?
.
And here some of us are 2000 yrs after her death making our own creative liberties to fit our racial proclivities.
Logicians and lawyers both use logic only one uses logical fallacies. One of which is to dismiss prime evidence by attempting to discredit the 'witness' so to speak. If not also a case of special pleading we'll have to throw away nearly all biographies and histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors, won't we?
Can only recall graffiti about whores. Something like "A white girl taught me to hate black girls" next to which was "But you will be back". Huh? Once you go black you never go back in reverse?
Oh... where can I learn more about "traditional Italian ideas of beauty" circa Lucan's era? I'm here to learn. DON'T GHOST ON ME NOW.
Meanwhile Still looking for the original Latin for the words translated as 'white' and 'shining'. Could be a deal like that aMazigh militant woman who translated Tjemehu as the Shining Ones. Her book's not even in the discount bin and she tauted it as a schooling for the "blacks".
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Logicians and lawyers both use logic only one uses logical fallacies. One of which is to dismiss prime evidence by attempting to discredit the 'witness' so to speak. If not also a case of special pleading we'll have to throw away nearly all biographies and histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors, won't we?
For fuck's sake, Lucan couldn't have been a "witness" to Cleopatra VII's physical appearance if he was born sixty-nine years after she died. I would be more impressed if someone who actually was a contemporary to Cleo described her appearance in any way.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.
He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.
Are you saying he called the Fur people Arabs?
No, sorry if i didn't make that clear. The FUR were ALSO being enslaved by Arabs. But he noted the Fur were Darker than the Dinka.
From OUR standpoint, and the standpoint of many Westerners regardless of the nuance they have we likely see ALL of them as some of the darkest people on the continent.
.
This is why I miss last millennium's anthropology, ethnology, and geography publications and reels. There were always picture of the people under review.
Cavilli-Sforza put an end to all that. I was surprised and dismayed when I found it at a bookseller. You could use it in place of dumbbells. Yet, it had not a single photo of any of the world's people reported on in its overflow of pages.
I recommend, and I thought ESers did, google the peoples in these genetic/genomic etc articles to see what they look like. A lot of racial mythology of the negro would instantly disappear when viewing the array of facial features in individual local geographical ethnic groups / speakers of the same 'mother tongue' and in many geographic regions.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
C'mon man
Don't distort " 'witness' so to speak" into witness just for some debate points.
Calm down keep it honest.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Logicians and lawyers both use logic only one uses logical fallacies. One of which is to dismiss prime evidence by attempting to discredit the 'witness' so to speak. If not also a case of special pleading we'll have to throw away nearly all biographies and histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors, won't we?
For fuck's sake, Lucan couldn't have been a "witness" to Cleopatra VII's physical appearance if he was born sixty-nine years after she died. I would be more impressed if someone who actually was a contemporary to Cleo described her appearance in any way.
.
OK, let's throw away nearly all those biographies and histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors per that same criteria. No? That's why special pleading.
PLUTARCH'S LIVES, into the rubbish bin. He did not live when nor visit where most of the people he wrote about did so he's a not impressive non-contemporary.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
TOURIST INFO
In the 80s/90s when TLC A&E DSC HIST debuted there were two mags I got. The TLC ones and one listing all the educational programs airing for the month.
Well, can't remember which one, but I was upset over the Renaissance Italian looking Cleo they put on the cover and I wrote them to let 'em know. I reffed all my Rogers etc about her.
Immediately I began amassing books on Cleo for in depth study as to her physical appearance and ethnic origin background. Eight of them were profusely illustrated and not just imgs of Cleo ranging from AE to Liz.
That's when I finally gave in to what a college age friend told me quite curtly in high school. "Cleopatra was Greek." At some point in time we yield our personal truths to the reality of universal impersonal fact if we care for impartial fact over self-comforting truth.
I felt somewhat vindicated when decades later a father of Afrocentricity wrote
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, let's throw away nearly all those biographies and histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors per that same criteria. No? That's why special pleading.
PLUTARCH'S LIVES, into the rubbish bin. He did not live when nor visit where most of the people he wrote about did so he's a not impressive non-contemporary.
That secondary sources are less likely to be accurate than primary sources should be common knowledge. A poet describing Cleopatra despite being born sixty-nine years after her death would be a secondary source. Someone who actually saw Cleopatra in person describing her would be an example of a primary source. Mind you, secondary sources aren't necessarily "to be thrown out" in totality, but surely you know why they are considered less authoritative and should be evaluated with a critical eye.
And, for the record, it's not even like I think Cleopatra VII had to have been of mixed ancestry. My position, right now, is that we don't know for sure yet. We don't even know whom her mother would have been yet. Pointing to a description in a poem written long after she died, by a man who wasn't even a contemporary, would be like me pointing to Shakespeare's description of Cleopatra as having a "tawny front" as proof that she was darker-skinned. Neither Lucan nor Shakespeare would have known what Cleopatra would have looked like from seeing her in person, since she died before either of them were born.
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