2014 This work attempts to reconstruct the Proto-Afrasian (Afroasiatic) phonological system, laying out the regular sound correspondences upon which that reconstruction is based. The core of the book contains a set of examples from the Afrasian daughter languages designed to illustrate those sound correspondences.
posted
The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method. The proper procedure is to establish the relationship of families via the comparative method, establish the sound laws, reconstruct the parent language so that one can establish the rules for the inclusion and exclusion of the language family, and then test other languages upon that data and refine the model. This was never done. And thus, he starts off with a faulty premise and a wide-ranging semantic spectrum, which renders his results unuseable.
2014 This work attempts to reconstruct the Proto-Afrasian (Afroasiatic) phonological system, laying out the regular sound correspondences upon which that reconstruction is based. The core of the book contains a set of examples from the Afrasian daughter languages designed to illustrate those sound correspondences.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
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posted
Where have I heard this before? He! He! HE!
"One can easily argue that the middle east and mesopotamia are just extensions of, or part of the main African complex"
I will start using it. Africasia
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posted
I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
posted
Africasia implies Africa to Eurasia. Eurasia implies to Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
.
True or false some of the below Semitic languages do not belong on the chart above. They are not part of the same family
.
.
.
Also please post a chart of the language family you think better represents the family of which Egyptian is a part of, thanks
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posted
Take an introductory course on how to do comparative linguistics. Then you'll know enough to ask meaningful questions. We've been through this already, and I don't like to repeat myself.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
.
True or false some of the below Semitic languages do not belong on the chart above. They are not part of the same family
.
.
.
Also please post a chart of the language family you think better represents the family of which Egyptian is a part of, thanks
Many studied in comparative linguistics would not agree that Semitic is not part of this family
quote: Now no one who has worked at Egyptian can possibly doubt that there are many Semitic words in the language, or that many of the pronouns, some of the numbers, and some of its grammatical forms resemble those found in the Semitic languages. But even admitting all the similarities that Erman [Grapow] has claimed, it is still impossible for me to believe that Egyptian is a Semitic language fundamentally.
--Obenga, from the French
If so but in looking at Semitic that doesn't necessarily mean Semitic is not part of the same language family as Egyptian as is suggested by this chart, it could be descendant not an ancestor but it is left out of this chart. Was the baby thrown out with the bath water?
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Africasia implies Africa to Eurasia. Eurasia implies to Africa.
no "Eurasia" does not apply to Africa at all it means Europe + Asia
Asar has a different concept and terms
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
.
Since they overhype a term sub-Sahara, intra-Sahara should come into use and supra-Sahara needs more mileage too
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, eh?
Early-Mid Holocene Intra-Saharans indeed were largely ex-Lakers with many former Mid Nile Basin folk plus some used-to-be supra-Saharans.
The former being Sudano-Saharan the latter being Gafsian (Capsian).
True DNAtribes is scientifically unquotable but I replicated/vetted their conclusions using popStr and NE Afr 'CODIS' tables.
Believe me, it wasn't as simple as plopping figures into the PopAffiliator for percentages that don't yield precise geo-ethnicities.
posted
Since my question was cut in half due to time it seems Dr. Keita got an incorrect impression of what i was trying to ask therefore the whole discussion of "Africasia" really didnt relate.
The "Eurasia" in the context i was speaking of was brought up to only to highlight their abundance of ancient samples and how they were able to do a better job at reconstructing their ancient population history better than practically anyone else on the globe:
quote: The genetic community has seen a lot of ancient Eurasian samples over the past few years. There are multiple lines of evidnce showing genetic turnovers in Eurasia. Differnet levels of genetic substructure some of which are quite widespread connect dislocated populations like "Basal Eurasian" and "ANE". While i am not too versed in European genetics it would seem that populations from the Neolithic Near East and Eurasian Steppes were some of the most sucessful latecomers in terms of Uni-Parental DNA, autosomal data and especially language. There have also been some surprises, one being that the main male Haplogroup in Europeans (R), derives from a subclade of the South East Asian lineaege of K2b2.
Take western Europeans: A combination of a WHG Base, with heavy Anatolia and Iran neolithic influences, with later Steppe Pastoral ancestry from their lingusitic forebearers and a dash of African....then analyze these layers with the wide ranging conepts of ANE and basal Eurasian. This has not been done for Africa. Instead they looking at us like the whole continent is Mbuti, Yoruba, and Dzudzuana. The studies we get are woefully inadequate. The East African pastoralist paper is so bad you would think they are analyzing contemporary samples. I was looking for the inside scoop. How he would hypothesize the genetic affinity of the Pastoral Neolithic in Afica, Wavy line potters, Proto Niger kordofanians, Auqialithic etc.....
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And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom
On what basis do you say this? Kemet dominated large parts of the area known as "Nubia" by some in NK, but Kingdom of Kush was an independent entity in its own right, and indeed, Kush almost overran Egypt centuries before the so-called 25th "kushite" Dynasty.
the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
Indeed. This shows that the southern regions still retained important influence.
The point here is that the Ancient Egyptians and their neighbors to the south should cluster together first as a Nilotic sub component before any population anywhere else. And this is the basic fundamental genetic relationship that should exist in any kind of DNA research. Not relationships to "Eurasia" or West Africa or Central Africa, which are more distant than the core Nile Valley base genetic profile. But they don't WANT to find that base profile and this is the problem. They want to do everything they can to avoid that. Someone like Keita who is not following any "agendas" should be able to show those foundational relationships.
They do cluster together first as has been shown by various studies, but to be sure the desire in some quarters is that "EUrasian" linkages be prominent. There are such linkages of course, as KEmet could not be isolated from Palestine and the Mediterranean over the centuries. But Keita has already shown the primary relationship time and again.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Greetings. Thank you for watching and for your commentary. I would like to state that we must remember that just because you personally may be privy to certain information, doesn't mean others are. And secondly, because of his time schedule, we didn't have an opportunity to address all questions. So I didn't get to your Basal Eurasian questions, which is easily answerable via a google search. Note, that on the original post was given the topics that would be discussed. The program stayed true to the original posting.
Yes. Any notion that Dr. Keita would address technical minutiae from certain narrow studies (some of which he has already addressed before), in a relatively short discussion, with other people in attendance still waiting to get in their questions, seems somewhat unrealistic. The field is a large one, covering everything from general Egyptian history, to DNA sampling, to stereotypes and "racial science", to even effects on president day culture as evidenced by his reference to the soul singer and his own roots in the first interview. He works on a broad palette of legitimate topics, not a narrow one. The interview was about what would have been expected.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: And if Keita tries to weasel out of it. Ask him to use Bedtools or any other software and pull the STRs himself.
Let us see him squirm......
Bruh, Dr. Keita does not have to "weasel" out of anything. LOL.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Definitely. No response from VJ Schuenemann.
===== verena.schuenemann@iem.uzh.ch
Good Morning Professor V. Schünemann
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer regarding the data for the Abusir mummies downloaded from the paper -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods VJ Schuenemann,Nature communications 8, 15694
1. It looks like the CODIS STRs were removed. Can you tell me why? 2. What were the CODIS STRs?
Thanks XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX Research BioInformatics
If you are unable to get Schuemann, to send you a reply (I commend you by the way for asking), how do you expect Dr Keita to have all these answers on technical minutiae in a relatively brief interview, with several people queuing up to have their own set of questions answered?
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posted
Basal Eurasian is hypothesized to be 80 thousand years old. Older than OOA, so its African.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Basal Eurasian is hypothesized to be 80 thousand years old. Older than OOA, so its African.
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posted
So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
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posted
How did this paper just come out today when the response was an immediate one two or three years ago? I posted the entire response in the first Shomarka Keita interview thread, which made me question why you were asking malformed questions on issues which he addressed fully in the paper?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
posted
You don't understand how this works do you? It just hit google scholar citations. In fact at least not only Periera cited it. Verena J. Schuenemann, Barbujani Guido, and others cited it.
Man you are a little slow. These citations came out Today 28APRIL2020.
on another note. Do you know why Keita cut you short in that 2nd interview?. tic! toc!
In other words Keita's challenge if not recently noticed by Verena S is noticed now. She put it out there.
SMH - Sometimes I think I am teaching Calculus to 1st graders.
We know Periera reads ES(see my thread) I would not be surprised this thread is being read by Verena and others.....even Keita.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: How did this paper just come out today when the response was an immediate one two or three years ago? I posted the entire response in the first Shomarka Keita interview thread, which made me question why you were asking malformed questions on issues which he addressed fully in the paper?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
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posted
Just checked my email. I took Lioness advice and did a BCC. I got a few responses. Maybe they are reading this thread. Anyways. One response from Haak
----
Dear XXXXXX,
thanks for getting in touch.
The data reported in Schuenemann et al. is capture data of 1.2M SNPs across the genome (see Mathieson et al. 2015, Nature), which does not include any CODIS STR regions.
Even if it were shotgun genome data, I’d be interested to hear how one can reliably type STR alleles from short reads such as those derived from ancient DNA with an average length of ~50 bp. I’m aware that TPOX is one of the shorter repeat regions, but it would still require several reads of > 70-80bp to cover the region and confidently call alleles.
I hope this helps.
With best regards Wolfgang
Dr Wolfgang Haak Group leader Molecular Anthropology Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10 07745 Jena Germany haak@shh.mpg.de https://wolfganghaak.com/ +49 (0) 3641 686 642
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Quote
---
I will do a couple more Abusirs to confirm the CODIS data was removed deliberately If it was removed we can assume the result...they skewed the results by removing the CODIS STR data. Anyways I am a little embarrassed. I had the answer in front of me a few weeks ago and missed it. Here is the result...
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posted
But there are several problems with his response. Can anyone tell me what?. I did send the spreadsheet above showing TPOX is missing which he agrees.
But can anyone tell me what is wrong with his explanation? You can tell there is arrogance in his tone. As Marcus Garvey said...."their arrogance is very shallow". I can challenge him and expose him. Buuuuut!
I would not disrespect or berate him but you know these guys are not really who we think they are.
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posted
BTW - In several of the responses I got back, they copied Haak. Haak is the man pulling the strings not Verena. She never responded.
I remembered several years back I questioned Eva Fernandez on her thesis on 50% African Uniparental markers in ancient Iberia after a few responses she dropped me like a hot frying pan. These researchers know they are lying.
Keita knows the game also. So does Haak.
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posted
You can tell he is annoyed I discovered the CODIS STRs are missing....tsk! tsk! What should my followup question be?
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posted
I'm very familiar with google scholar and how this works. What makes you slow is your inability to comprehend basic things, which is why you keep harping, for example, on Keita in an interview mentioning Weavers from the middle east as ONE POSSIBLE reason for foreign DNA in Egypt, when it was pointed out to you in the paper a fuller response. Thus:
Keita, Gourdine, Anselin
quote: 2) Historiography and misinterpretation
The authors do not consider explanations based on historical narrative, although they present historical information. NE input in AE could also be explained by old mercantile relationships with Lower Egypt (e.g. Maadi-Buto complex ~4,000 BC3), Egyptianized Asiatic rulers and migrants (e.g. Hyksos ~1,650 BC), NE prisoners of war (e.g. from Thutmose III’s military campaign in NE ~ 1,490 BC), from diplomatic marriages2 (e.g. Amenhotep III and Mitanni princess, Gilukhipa ~ 1,380 BC), etc.
As we can see here, Keita et al. are providing a wide range of explanations for the presence of "Asiatics" in Kemet.
You keep making issues with Keita that he doesn't have.
ANd to the second question, he had plans that day. So we got him for as long as we could get him. He'll be back and we are also planning his own online lectures for everyone else who is interested.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You don't understand how this works do you? It just hit google scholar citations. In fact at least not only Periera cited it. Verena J. Schuenemann, Barbujani Guido, and others cited it.
Man you are a little slow. These citations came out Today 28APRIL2020.
on another note. Do you know why Keita cut you short in that 2nd interview?. tic! toc!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You can tell he is annoyed I discovered the CODIS STRs are missing....tsk! tsk! What should my followup question be?
Just like Christopher Columbus "discovered" the Americas, huh?
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posted
@xyyman - have you searched for Codis makers in any other ancient DNA data from Africa, Middle East or Europe?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
No. My obsession was the Abusir dataset because I know it is impossible for the Abusir NOT to be SSA if the Amarnas are SSA.
The 3 Genetic software tools I used confirmed the CODIS STRs were missing. So I switched to finding tools that can pull geographic affinity using ONLY SNPs. I am stuck on MALDER. But as I said in other threads there are a few tools coming out that can do the job. I just don't have the time.
But based upon ADMIXTURE I got this...
yes. JK2134 is different from the other 2 but that may be because of origins from a different geographic region in SSA.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @xyyman - have you searched for Codis makers in any other ancient DNA data from Africa, Middle East or Europe?
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posted
Oh, and yeah when looking at AE codis markers.....im telling you they are exinct. They are extinct in the same way the Eastern Saharan ancestors of Horners and Egyptians and Great lakes Africans are extinct.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Oh, and yeah when looking at AE codis markers.....im telling you they are exinct. They are extinct in the same way the Eastern Saharan ancestors of Horners and Egyptians and Great lakes Africans are extinct.
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posted
I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
To the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
Genetic structure of north-west Africa revealed by STR analysis
Elena Bosch1, Francesc Calafell1, Anna P´erez-Lezaun1, Jordi Clarim ´on1, David Comas1,
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posted
Yes. I used AFRICASIANS!!!! He! He! HE! Notice the CODIS STR follow a geographic cline.
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posted
I am going to give Keita credit for that one....Africasia
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
T the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
placeholder
1 - This is the second time you have dodged my question of whether you have seached from STR Codis markers in OTHER anceint remains. If yes what are the findings. If not...why not?
2 - Codis markers themselves have not gone extinct. The STR "PROFILE" has so its almost useless looking for this profile in modern populations. Written years ago and I still stand by this:
quote: Originally posted by beyoku:
Look at the MLI scores. King Tut has the Highest score of 1519. The other scores have a AVERAGE that ranges from 326 to 14 among Sub Saharan Africans. A contemporary African American has Top MLI score with Sub Saharan Africans specific countries to the tune of 17 MILLION! This same African American sample will have an MLI score with Arabians that is twice that of these mummies average with there HIGHEST Sub Saharan group: Southern Africa. The Horn of Africa and Sahel MLI scores of the mummies top out at around 15. Compare this with this same African American MLI score with Slavic @ 11 and North Western Europeans at 13.8. Matter of fact with an MLI score 30,46,52 and 68 this African American has a genome that is twice as likely to be found in Iberian, 3 to 4 times likely to be found in Greece, and 5 times more likely to be found Mexican Mestizos than any of these mummy genomes are to be found in the Sahel or the Horn of Africa.
Lets move to Europeans and their MLI scores. This "White American" has a top match MLI score with North Western Europe at 1.4 Million. With Arabia at 5800 and a Horn of Africa MLI score of 675. Take 675 score and compare that to all the mummy scores. This European has an MLI score that is twice as likely to be found in Ethiopia than the average of all these mummies in Southern Africa.
Yall been harping on this shit for almost 10 years and you need to quit it. This proile as i said a LONG time ago could be representative of their eastern saharan pastoral ancestors.....and somewhat similar to East African pastoralist ancient DNA.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
In the words of the Oracle...I can see why she likes you, "not too bright though".
1. was answered 2. no idea what you on about. You talked about STRs going extinct. I am saying STR do NOT go extinct. Repeats will change over time....but we talking 100's to 1000's of years.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
T the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
placeholder
1 - This is the second time you have dodged my question of whether you have seached from STR Codis markers in OTHER anceint remains. If yes what are the findings. If not...why not?
2 - Codis markers themselves have not gone extinct. The STR "PROFILE" has so its almost useless looking for this profile in modern populations. Written years ago and I still stand by this:
quote: Originally posted by beyoku:
Look at the MLI scores. King Tut has the Highest score of 1519. The other scores have a AVERAGE that ranges from 326 to 14 among Sub Saharan Africans. A contemporary African American has Top MLI score with Sub Saharan Africans specific countries to the tune of 17 MILLION! This same African American sample will have an MLI score with Arabians that is twice that of these mummies average with there HIGHEST Sub Saharan group: Southern Africa. The Horn of Africa and Sahel MLI scores of the mummies top out at around 15. Compare this with this same African American MLI score with Slavic @ 11 and North Western Europeans at 13.8. Matter of fact with an MLI score 30,46,52 and 68 this African American has a genome that is twice as likely to be found in Iberian, 3 to 4 times likely to be found in Greece, and 5 times more likely to be found Mexican Mestizos than any of these mummy genomes are to be found in the Sahel or the Horn of Africa.
Lets move to Europeans and their MLI scores. This "White American" has a top match MLI score with North Western Europe at 1.4 Million. With Arabia at 5800 and a Horn of Africa MLI score of 675. Take 675 score and compare that to all the mummy scores. This European has an MLI score that is twice as likely to be found in Ethiopia than the average of all these mummies in Southern Africa.
Yall been harping on this shit for almost 10 years and you need to quit it. This proile as i said a LONG time ago could be representative of their eastern saharan pastoral ancestors.....and somewhat similar to East African pastoralist ancient DNA.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman how are you ever going to get credit for your groundbreaking research as "xyyman? How can S.O.Y. Keita use "xyyman" as a reference? Doesn't there have to be a real name put on to this?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman how are you ever going to get credit for your groundbreaking research as "xyyman? How can S.O.Y. Keita use "xyyman" as a reference? Doesn't there have to be a real name put on to this?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
That's what happens when one confuses proprietary MLI scores thinking they're the sixteen CODIS STR allele raw data repeats.
proved Upper Egypt and Sudan carries Thuya's exact profile as in Pusch's report in JAMA that Hawass claimed to author.
Sudan has 6 out of 8 complete locus matches, per available data, and a total of 13 of Ramses' 16 alleles.
11 of Amenophis' 16 alleles show up in Somalia, 10 in Upper Egypt and Sudan. 13 of his alleles are in Africa spread out amongst NE Afrs, Rainforesters, and San.
Europe has 6 and Africa has 5 of Yuya's 8 loci, each having 13 of his 16 alleles. Only 2 of his alleles were missing from the global data and one allele had no data.
And this was done not long after the Amarnas and the Ramses data was published in peer reviewed journals.
No one posting here is more than an informed layman at best. No one here is a professional whose money earning career/livelihood is in population genetics/genomics. Stop fronting. Where are you published? What association are you registered with? What conferences lists you on their agenda/itinerary/schedule?
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: DOUG SAID:
And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom
On what basis do you say this? Kemet dominated large parts of the area known as "Nubia" by some in NK, but Kingdom of Kush was an independent entity in its own right, and indeed, Kush almost overran Egypt centuries before the so-called 25th "kushite" Dynasty.
the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
Indeed. This shows that the southern regions still retained important influence.
It was a result of the events of the 2nd intermediate period, when large numbers of Southerners flowed north all the way to the delta that the AE incorporated Kush and Gebel Barkal into the Middle Kingdom.
quote: Mentuhotep II, the 21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom, is recorded to have undertaken campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign. This is the earliest Egyptian reference to Kush; the Nubian region had gone by other names in the Old Kingdom. Under Thutmose I, Egypt made several campaigns south. This eventually resulted in their annexation of Nubia c. 1504 BC. After the conquest, Kerma culture was increasingly Egyptianized, yet rebellions continued for 220 years until c. 1300 BC. Nubia nevertheless became a key province of the New Kingdom, economically, politically and spiritually. Indeed, major pharonic ceremonies were held at Jebel Barkal near Napata.[16] As an Egyptian colony from the 16th century BC, Nubia ("Kush") was governed by an Egyptian Viceroy of Kush. With the disintegration of the New Kingdom around 1070 BC, Kush became an independent kingdom centered at Napata in modern northern Sudan.
posted
I have also tried other online services. Paid my hard cash. Nada!
Software that can pinpoint geographic origin based on SNP/AIM released on the Abusir
eg GPS
Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, Eran Elhaik Author Notes Genome Biology and Evolution, Volume 8, Issue 4, April 2016, Pages 1132–1149, https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evw046 Published: 03 March 2016 Article history
The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish Ranajit Das1, Paul Wexler2, Mehdi Pirooznia3 and Eran Elhaik4* 1Manipal Centre for Natural Sciences, Manipal University, Manipal, India
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
When you say predynastic times, I get confused. "Nubian A culture" sites have been found a bit North of Aswan. Are you suggesting that the dynastic period marked the end of Ta-Seti (nwt) as an independent entity, and the start of it being part of the Egyptian state?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thanks for the question Ase.
Please slowly and carefully reread post #000040 and follow its lynx. You may want to print it all out, hold in your hands, and study it maybe underlining and taking notes as you go along.
Is the map there hard to understand on its own? Maybe it needs to be seen as an insert of a larger map of Egypt and northern Sudan.
I don't go for this alphabet soup Nubian stuff. Their kingdom names are known and I prefer them. (TaSeti, Wawat, Irtjet, Kau, Mekher, Tereres, Sethu, Utjek, Metjer, etc.)
TaSeti.xhast was primary. Its northernmost area is where sandstone displaces limestone in what is now Egypt and that's quite "a bit north of Aswan" between Silsila and Edfu.
. There was no nome TaSeti.niwt before "the Egyptian state" TaShemau.
TaSeti.niwt was just one part of TaSeti.khast (Wawat) taken over by the newly forming Egyptian state TaShemau as its first nome.
Part of the Egyptian state's second nome --Throne of Horus-- was the northernmost region of TaSeti.khast (Wawat).
So TaSeti.niwt was not the only part of TaSeti.khast taken over by the nascent Egyptian state as it spread south into the sandstone territory in its push toward Swn.t ('Aswan').
Think of New Mexico. It is one part of Mexico taken over by the USA. There was no New Mexico before there was a United States just as there was no TaSeti.niwt before there was a TaSeti.khast.
Baines & Malek is a cheap buy and you must buy it. There's a $5 copy in the link under the map in post #000040. Their maps are invaluable and show the ever changing political boundary of Egypt re Sudan.
The Egyptian state's natural south boundary was the 1st cataract. There's no denying what the Oracle of Ammon delineated as Egypt.
I hope this is helpful and not further 'muddying the waters'. I wish I could write like I speak but when I went to grade school we were taught that written English and spoken English are two different languages. Unfortunately, try as I might I can't overcome that hurdle.
If I'm still not clear let me know and I'll try it again (under 3 paragraphs).
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