Join us on Saturday April 25, 2020 as we welcome back Dr. Shomarka Keita, biological anthropologist, to our program for another exciting discussion about African history (in general) and Nile-Valley history (in particular). While our first discussion was a general introduction to biological anthropology, its methods, concerns, and general application to African and Egyptological studies, this conversation is a little bit more focused and narrow. For our second interview, Dr. Keita will discuss the following:
1) Modern statistical studies on the biological affinity of the ancient Egyptians (e.g., dental vs craniofacial evidence, cephalometry, etc.); 2) New archaeological studies that speak to the origins of ancient Egypt. And, 3) The latest on the fight and details of COVID-19 on African-Americans
This will definitely be an engagement that requires some serious note-taking. So, we encourage our listeners to have a pin-and-pad ready (as well as some snacks ) for jotting down notes and sources. Unlike our previous programs, this show encourages the listener to read the following texts prior to the discussion. Many of the points in these texts will be brought up throughout the interview. Please subscribe (if you have not already), share, and hit the notify button so you are sent a reminder for the show.
Assigned homework to be read before our discussion:
2) ""The early neolithic, Qarunian burial from the northern Fayum desert" (1989) by Maciej Henneberg, Michal Kobusiewicz, Romuald Schild and Fred Wendorf. books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeum/reader/download/194/194-30-76484-1-10-20170112.pdf
3) _Troublesome Science: The Misuse of Genetics and Genomics in Understanding Race_ (2018) by Rob DeSalle, and Ian Tattersall (contact me for copy)
GET YOUR COPY TODAY! Towards a Comparative Dictionary of CIkam and Modern African Languages (2020): asarimhotep.com/shop-market/books/towards-a-comparative-dictionary-of-cikam-and-modern-african-languages
Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (2020). : asarimhotep.com/shop-market/books/aaluja-vol-ii-cyena-ntu-religion-and-philosophy
To continue to support this channel, please consider donating with Cash App: CashApp: $asarimhotep
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Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
1 - Should we post queestions here or on youtube? 2 - For the 3rd source just PM you email address i assume?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
You can ask them here or in the live chat. And yes, you can send me your email via private message.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Is this going to be a review of why Keita has been speaking about for years or is their going to be anything new?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
The topic has already been outlined in the initial thread.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Is this going to be a review of why Keita has been speaking about for years or is their going to be anything new?
posted
Whether this is a review of what he's already done I am glad this interview is being done and you are doing it Asar. I see from the first part now one he has a lot to say.
I have some questions for Keita
1)Can genetics determine groups living today that have specific alleles indicating them being descendant of people from Ancient Egypt. One DNA company says Copts in Sudan are directly related. People also say southern Egyptians might be most directly related
2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language?
3)Is Abusir el-Meleq study lopsided in that they analyzed 90 mummies, drew broad conclusions about the whole civilization yet of the 90 mummies only 3 were tested for Y DNA ?
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
5)In your opinion if the famous painted bust of Nefertiti a fake in some way either the whole thing or the paint and why is there so much variance in appearance with relief depictions or Nefertiti?
6)Perhaps the most famous recent reconstruction of Tutankhamen is Elisabeth Daynes's 2006 reconstruction for the cover of National Geographic. A similar one, also widely viewed was made in 2014 for the BBC documentary “Tutankhamen: The Truth Uncovered,” Neither one had the dark brown skin tone that is obvious in his tomb art. Should we be organizing letters of protest when this happens?
7)How much evidence is there for Hebrews being descendants of Hyksos and did they invade or come in slowly, peacefully?
8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
9)How can we verify who the famous stone head in the Petrie museum labeled as Narmer or Menes is?
10)When the Greeks and Romans began using the word "Nubian" was it inspired by the Nobatae or gold or one of the cities called Nubt? Why did they pick that word?
11)On the Narmer palette Narmer is holding a foe and ready to strike him with a mace. Of what group might the foes on that palette be?
If possible please forward him the questions to him in advance if possible
posted
I'll forward some of these to him. Some of these are outside of his field: 2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language? He's not a linguist and this he made clear in the first interview. This question:
quote:8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
... is easily answered. I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. Even Manu Ampim has done a treatise on the subject, which you can find here: http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
So I'm not going to waste my time with questions you can easily verify yourself. But a few of these questions are in alignment with the topic on Saturday.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Whether this is a review of what he's already done I am glad this interview is being done and you are doing it Asar. I see from the first part now one he has a lot to say.
I have some questions for Keita
1)Can genetics determine groups living today that have specific alleles indicating them being descendant of people from Ancient Egypt. One DNA company says Copts in Sudan are directly related. People also say southern Egyptians might be most directly related
2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language?
3)Is Abusir el-Meleq study lopsided in that they analyzed 90 mummies, drew broad conclusions about the whole civilization yet of the 90 mummies only 3 were tested for Y DNA ?
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
5)In your opinion if the famous painted bust of Nefertiti a fake in some way either the whole thing or the paint and why is there so much variance in appearance with relief depictions or Nefertiti?
6)Perhaps the most famous recent reconstruction of Tutankhamen is Elisabeth Daynes's 2006 reconstruction for the cover of National Geographic. A similar one, also widely viewed was made in 2014 for the BBC documentary “Tutankhamen: The Truth Uncovered,” Neither one had the dark brown skin tone that is obvious in his tomb art. Should we be organizing letters of protest when this happens?
7)How much evidence is there for Hebrews being descendants of Hyksos and did they invade or come in slowly, peacefully?
8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
9)How can we verify who the famous stone head in the Petrie museum labeled as Narmer or Menes is?
10)When the Greeks and Romans began using the word "Nubian" was it inspired by the Nobatae or gold or one of the cities called Nubt? Why did they pick that word?
11)On the Narmer palette Narmer is holding a foe and ready to strike him with a mace. Of what group might the foes on that palette be?
If possible please forward him the questions to him in advance if possible
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [QB] I'll forward some of these to him. Some of these are outside of his field: 2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language? He's not a linguist and this he made clear in the first interview. This question:
quote:8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
... is easily answered. I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. Even Manu Ampim has done a treatise on the subject, which you can find here: http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
So I'm not going to waste my time with questions you can easily verify yourself. But a few of these questions are in alignment with the topic on Saturday.
Here's the question rephrased
8) In the famous Book of Gates scene from Ramesses III where four groups of mankind are depicted the Egyptians are depicted with the same clothing as the the Nehesy. Why?
that question is not easily answered
yes the photo proves that a set of figures dressed in the same way as the Nehesy are labeled in the glyphs as Egyptian but the question is why do they look the same but in other tombs they do not look the same.
We can't assume S.O.Y. Keita has the same opinion as Manu Ampim.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Not to distract as this matter's been thoroughly discussed on ES from 2004 on up to 2018 and technically is far off-topic to this SOY Keita intrvw thread. https://www.google.com/search?q="kv11"+altakruri+site:www.egyptsearch.com Copy & paste into your url window/address bar to make link work.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
... I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. ...
posted
8) In the famous Book of Gates scene from Ramesses III where four groups of mankind are depicted the Egyptians are depicted with the same clothing as the the Nehesy. Why?
that question is not easily answered
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Here is my "Question". Its somewhat long winded so Dr. Ketia can get a feel of what I am looking for.
The genetic community has seen a lot of ancient Eurasian samples over the past few years. There are multiple lines of evidnce showing genetic turnovers in Eurasia. Differnet levels of genetic substructure some of which are quite widespread connect dislocated populations like "Basal Eurasian" and "ANE". While i am not too versed in European genetics it would seem that populations from the Neolithic Near East and Eurasian Steppes were some of the most sucessful latecomers in terms of Uni-Parental DNA, autosomal data and especially language. There have also been some surprises, one being that the main male Haplogroup in Europeans (R), derives from a subclade of the South East Asian lineaege of K2b2.
While Ancient DNA in Africa exists and more is forthcoming there is still a lot to be desired. Some of the main avenues for migration such as the Nile Valley and Sahara-Sahel Belt are lacking in samples. Using Eurasia as a model, and drawing from your expertise as far as the study of African physical remains, language, pottery styles, stone/bone tool usage, fossils etc........What type of Genetic Substructure and turnover would you expect to see as the Ancient Samples come in? What population centers would be best sampled in trying to reaveal some of this anceint diveristy and how it relates to population movements of the past and contemporary Africans? Something like Barbed bone points show an African tradition spaning a very long distance with possible extreme continuity. This could somewhat be said of Sahara Pottery or the aqualithic as well. We (non Academic Hobbiest) can hypothesized some of this stuff but its really going to take some years of study for some of us to really know what this means in terms of populations affinity among contemporary humans in Africa.
Thank you for your time.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
I would ask him what he makes of "Basal Eurasian" and whether he thinks that population first emerged in Africa or Arabia. And maybe whether it's relevant to ancient Egyptian and Nubian ancestry.
quote:I don't know if you watched the entire conversation but he spoke about back migration, M1 and mixing with Neanderthals in a way that would suggest that he thinks anything that isn't L and M1 mutated in Asia and back migrated. I'm not sure if he could even theorize how Abu Sir might be mostly indigenous.
It took someone going to my youtube channel and showing me their 23andme test before I really looked at how homogeneous and old branched many of these 'Out of Africa' haplogroups are in Africa.
If you could phrase that into a question.
For example, what I mean by homogeneous and old is how Y-Chromo Haplogroup J in Africa has a ratio of branches that are older than Asia's.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
My question. Here Keita does a deep dive on the CODIS STR of the Amarnas. Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir? This will settle the controversy without a doubt.
Follow up question if he dodges the question, ask another way - Has he tried to obtain the STR of the Abusir?
All Amarnas are SSA. To the right in the Table. It is impossible for the Abusir to be anything but SSA.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote: Sex-biased sampling (mtDNA) cannot recover population demography of the whole country unless the sample size is large enough and representative in terms of chronology, regional variation, “ethnicities” (including the foreign presence), class and geography. It suffers from many biases that can affect the assessment of the effective population size: population size changes, mutation bias, and natural selection
--Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion Jean-Philippe Gourdine S.O.Y Keita Jean-Luc Gourdine Alain Anselin
posted
SSA(STR) carrying "Eurasian" mtDNA will shatter the premise of "back-migration".
Let's see how he/they spins out of that one.
Didn't he attend Oxford?
But we already know SSA carry these mtDNA. Kenya, Uganda even some in Mozambique
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: My question. Here Keita does a deep dive on the CODIS STR of the Amarnas. Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir? This will settle the controversy without a doubt.
Follow up question if he dodges the question, ask another way - Has he tried to obtain the STR of the Abusir?
All Amarnas are SSA. To the right in the Table. It is impossible for the Abusir to be anything but SSA.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir?
without evidence you assume unreleased STRs as opposed to they decided to only test 3 mummies for STR
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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They did not release the STRs for the 3. They released a selective set of SNPs/AIM. NOT the Codis STRs. The regions where the CODIS STRs should be are deleted They were NOT included in the data set. .....for the 3 mummies. Why were these STRs removed before releasing to the public?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir?
without evidence you assume unreleased STRs as opposed to they decided to only test 3 mummies for STR
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Response to question/comment posted on ES. Some may have the same question here. ------
No! No! STR can be pulled from SNPS/GWS. This is what LobSTR, HipSTR etc does that. In fact no software is needed. The regions for the STR are GONE!!!! eg TPOX region 1493425 - 1493456 is gone. It does not matter if testing for STRs were done or not.
The regions are gone. ALL OF THEM!!!! ALL the regions are gone. Please don't mislead readers.
There are software that can pull the STR regions from genome released. They are NOT there.
There is no testing for STR needed. The STRs can be built "manually" if they were there.
There are software that can screen the SNP regions and pull and display the region.
As I explained before no software is needed. Download the genome of the Abusirs. go to CODIS regions in the table and count the alleles eg AATG. See how many times AATG shows up in the region. These are the number of repeats. From the number of repeats you will know if they are subSaharans. BUT you know what? the regions are gone!!!!
Hope you follow?!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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What are you looking at ? take for example TPOX. We know it is was removed from the Abusir JK488!! I haven’t manually done a check on every single CODIS STR but the few that I have done is missing. The Chromosome number is self explanatory. The region/location follows. The 4 and 8 represents the repeats on the sample test file I pulled from LobSTR. 4/8 …..from mommy and daddy. And of course the “name” of the CODIS STR.
Now...if you can manually look at the location we can do a physical count of the repeats ...no computer needed.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
In short. I confirmed by three different methods that the CODIS STRs were removed from the ABusir mummies before the dataset was uploaded.
1. STRaitRazor which is MSExcel VBA/Macro based pulled zero CODIS STRs 2. BAMAnalysis Kit via a VCF/Text conversion process showed the region for the TPOX and other STRs were missing 3. BEDTools showed no "Intersect" for COSDIS STRs. Ie Zero CODIS STRS
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
And if Keita tries to weasel out of it. Ask him to use Bedtools or any other software and pull the STRs himself.
Let us see him squirm......
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I will do a couple more Abusirs to confirm the CODIS data was removed deliberately If it was removed we can assume the result...they skewed the results by removing the CODIS STR data. Anyways I am a little embarrassed. I had the answer in front of me a few weeks ago and missed it. Here is the result...
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
To those who are interested. It is very easy to do.
download the BAM/VCF files for the 3.
VCF files are essentially Excel files.
Wait! But Keita should know this.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ 1 - Have you ever pressed the publishers on this and gotten a response? 2 - Have you run this data on other ancient genomes such as Natufian, MOTA, IAM, Taforalt?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Definitely. No response from VJ Schuenemann.
===== verena.schuenemann@iem.uzh.ch
Good Morning Professor V. Schünemann
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer regarding the data for the Abusir mummies downloaded from the paper -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods VJ Schuenemann,Nature communications 8, 15694
1. It looks like the CODIS STRs were removed. Can you tell me why? 2. What were the CODIS STRs?
Thanks XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX Research BioInformatics
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ 1 - Have you ever pressed the publishers on this and gotten a response? 2 - Have you run this data on other ancient genomes such as Natufian, MOTA, IAM, Taforalt?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
you sent that or you are afraid to? send it BCC (blind closed caption) to each of the authors that have their mail listed
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I sent that to the lead author Professor V. Schünemann last year. No response.
I am not afraid of anything Lioness. I know the game. I know the authors will never answer. They can't. Just as I know who are the frauds on this site.
Professor V. Schünemann knows these are SSA, that is why at the end of the paper she stated that AE further south may carry SSA ancestry and the Abusir may not reflect all of AE.
That statement alone is a waffling. She is anticipating she will be caught in the lie someday but for now she will spin it.
There is one Software I came across that may be used to resolve the issue using only SNP/AIM. It uses Linkage Disequilibrium(LD) of SNPs to infer geographic ancestry like STR. FrogAncestryCalc I haven't had time to play with the software.
FrogAncestryCalc: A standalone batch likelihood computation tool for ancestry inference panels catalogued in FROG-kb Haseena Rajeevan Usha Soundararajan Andrew J. Pakstis Kenneth K. Kidd Open AccessPublished:January 21, 2020DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2020.102237
Highlights • FrogAncestryCalc is the stand-alone version of FROG-kb. • Simultaneously computes population likelihoods for multiple individuals. • Five Ancestry Inference (AI) panels are implemented. • Available for download from FROG-kb and GitHub. • FrogAncestryCalc is open source.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you sent that or you are afraid to? send it BCC (blind closed caption) to each of the authors that have their mail listed
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I sent that to the lead author Professor V. Schünemann last year. No response.
I told your ass. If you send to more than one author independently. sometimes one will answer
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
Might be better to ask how Ta-Seti related to other major centers like Nekhen and Abydos. Ta-Seti was absorbed as the first nome of Egypt (on what terms idk) and so to call it "Nubia" like the people weren't also proto Egyptians could be misleading.
Speaking of which I'd like to know his thoughts on the use of the term or concept of "Nubia" as something that separates Egypt from both it's neighbors and sub populations within it.
-I am wondering if any of Keita's seen any unpublished data on Egyptian DNA and if it in any way shapes his opinions on AE and genetic affinities.
-Earlier he brought up the fact that Asiatic weavers were living nearby Abusir el-Meleq. Does he have any additional information on the site that would emphasize the need to have a better contextual understanding of genetic data before we arrive to any conclusions?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
Might be better to ask how Ta-Seti related to other major centers like Nekhen and Abydos. Ta-Seti was absorbed as the first nome of Egypt (on what terms idk) and so to call it "Nubia" like the people weren't also proto Egyptians could be misleading.
the question is quote from the Oriental Institute:
How did Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group? ____________________
Dr. Bruce Williams is the researcher from the Oriental Institute who excavated the incense burner
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Speaking of which I'd like to know his thoughts on the use of the term or concept of "Nubia" as something that separates Egypt from both it's neighbors and sub populations within it.
question 10 (listed in same post)
Nubia was outside of Egypt's political territory
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
If Keita is reading this. Don't be surprised if he cancels this webinar thing. He doesn't want to be jammed up. lol!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ta Seti nome niwt (of Egypt) and Ta Seti nation xAst (of Sudan) were two separate entities.
Ppl don't like to hear it but the First Cataract was a border.
Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
posted
NVM my initial response, I'll read the above first
Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Ase: NVM my initial response, I'll read the above first
Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
The article doesn't use the term "Infra Saharan". DNA tribes was a private testing company using their own proprietary Match Liklihood system, their data is not peer reviewed and can't be used as an academic reference
Here they mention "supra-Saharan"
quote:
Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussionJean-Philippe Gourdine1,4, S.O.Y Keita2,4, Jean-Luc Gourdine3 and Alain Anselin4
On the Definition of African Schuenemann et al.1 seem to implicitly suggest that only SSA equals Africa and that there are no interconnections between the various regions of Africa not rooted in the slave trade, a favorite trope. It has to be noted too that that in the Islamic armies that entered Egypt that there were a notable number of eastern Africans. It is not clear why there is an emphasis on ‘sub-Saharan’ when no Saharan or supra-Saharan population4 samples--empirical or modelled are considered; furthermore, there is no one way to be“sub-Saharan.” In this study northern tropical Africans, such as lower and upper Nubiansand adjacent southern Egyptians and Saharans were not included as comparison groups,as noted by the authors themselves....
It is important to note that “SSA” influence may not bedue to a slave trade, an overdone explanation; the green Sahara is to be considered asEgypt is actually in the eastern Sahara. SSA affinities of modern Egyptians from AbusirEl-Meleq might be attributed to ancient early settlers as there is a notable frequency ofthe “Bushmen canine”- deemed a SSA trait in Predynastic samples dating to 4,000 BC(9) from Adaima, Upper Egypt.
Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
True, but as many Egyptologists have also noted, much of the population directly south of Aswan was absored into the dynastic kingdom after Unification and that area immediately to the south was somewhat depopulated for a time hence the jump from "A-Group" to "C-Group". But then again there is a lot of stuff underneath Lake Nasser as well and many temples that were rescued show this area was an active part of the Dynastic culture as well. And who knows what else is submerged under the lake. And Aswan is home to many tombs of high power officials from the Dynastic era, with many more likely submerged.
From the AE view of the world their maps had the South at the top and everything else at the bottom.
quote: Aswan is the ancient city of Swenett, later known as Syene, which in antiquity was the frontier town of Ancient Egypt facing the south. Swenett is supposed to have derived its name from an Egyptian goddess with the same name. This goddess later was identified as Eileithyia by the Greeks and Lucina by the Romans during their occupation of Ancient Egypt because of the similar association of their goddesses with childbirth, and of which the import is "the opener". The ancient name of the city also is said to be derived from the Egyptian symbol for "trade", or "market".
Because the Ancient Egyptians oriented themselves toward the origin of the life-giving waters of the Nile in the south, and as Swenett was the southernmost town in the country, Egypt always was conceived to "open" or begin at Swenett. The city stood upon a peninsula on the right (east) bank of the Nile, immediately below (and north of) the first cataract of the flowing waters, which extend to it from Philae. Navigation to the delta was possible from this location without encountering a barrier.
And after the Old Kingdom the dynastic kingdom border moved further South. This started in the late Old Kingdom and into the Middle Kingdom with the fortresses of Buhen, Shalfak, Urontari, etc and every since then was pretty much South of Abu Simbel, much as the current border is today.
quote: Archaeologists from the University of Chicago have discovered a gold processing center along the middle Nile, an installation that produced the precious metal sometime between 2000 and 1500 B.C. The center, along with a cemetery they discovered, documents extensive control by the first sub-Saharan kingdom, the kingdom of Kush.
Be that as it may, we know that there was much blood flow from further South during these eras, especially from the Middle Kingdom onwards. And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom and the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.
Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
The point here is that the Ancient Egyptians and their neighbors to the south should cluster together first as a Nilotic sub component before any population anywhere else. And this is the basic fundamental genetic relationship that should exist in any kind of DNA research. Not relationships to "Eurasia" or West Africa or Central Africa, which are more distant than the core Nile Valley base genetic profile. But they don't WANT to find that base profile and this is the problem. They want to do everything they can to avoid that. Someone like Keita who is not following any "agendas" should be able to show those foundational relationships.
posted
Since the livestream is about to end, I have to say I was disappointed. It was simply a rehash of what we knew already. Keita never even got around to answering my questions about "Basal Eurasian" in the chat (though I think this is because Asar as the streamer didn't read them out loud to him).
He makes my point(Abusir). That if they had sampled further south. The genetic profile may be different.
1hr 7min. Ha! HA! He wont give up the "service women" thingy.....concubines.
Good he mentions "black skin white skull". See my thread on ESR. 1hr 1min
1hr 15min - Keita agrees with me. That the homogeneity of groups "as the starting point" is ridiculous. Which is what the frequency of SNPs mimics "origin". I said for the longest time that premise is absolutely crazy. The human species is a continuum based upon Isolation By Distance
1hr 16min - I agree with him. Modern genecists "spin" to align with their point of view.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Greetings. Thank you for watching and for your commentary. I would like to state that we must remember that just because you personally may be privy to certain information, doesn't mean others are. And secondly, because of his time schedule, we didn't have an opportunity to address all questions. So I didn't get to your Basal Eurasian questions, which is easily answerable via a google search. Note, that on the original post was given the topics that would be discussed. The program stayed true to the original posting.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Since the livestream is about to end, I have to say I was disappointed. It was simply a rehash of what we knew already. Keita never even got around to answering my questions about "Basal Eurasian" in the chat (though I think this is because Asar as the streamer didn't read them out loud to him).
posted
I believe that to be so. What he is saying is that these labels are arbitrary and one could just as easily say Africasia, which would include Africa and the "Middle-East" and it would be just as valid of a construct. In other words, you flip the orientation by stressing the African first. There is no a priori reason why one should be thinking of Southwest Asia as "Eurasia." One can easily argue that the middle east and mesopotamia are just extensions of, or part of the main African complex.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: What's that suppose to be? A combination of Africa and Asia?
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