quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: When you go by this depiction (Amenhotep III) then of course Amenhotep III looks "black".
He does if those are accurate features. That could work with R1b-V88 which is in Northern Cameroon also as well as with Siwa berbers in Egypt but the specific clade of R1b was not mentioned. R1b-V88 is an African clade although it's parent is believed to be Eurasian
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: To be honest all the information about African R1b to be found on the web can probably be located on this site. Use the search feature and enter V88. R1b has been covered extensively on ES.
To answer your question: yes it is possible. But it isn't probable... And when I say unlikely I mean highly unlikely that its middle eastern and even more unlikely that it's African. Reasons why have been posted here on ES some even referred to on page one of this thread iirc.
I lean towards an African origin for a few reasons. One of them is I can guess where its ancestors are in Africa.
Researching the Origin of Y-chromo haplogroup R I thought I should see the ancestor of R in the Central African Republic. And yeah there is P in the CAR.
I already knew I could pan out further and find F in Upper Egypt and the Sudan so this was a bit of a triangulation.
The only thing that keeps me from being really certain is the lack of K branches. P is too small for branches but if African K is early branched in a fore migration pattern then even if it somehow back migrated it would be a distinction without a difference.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: When you go by this depiction (Amenhotep III) then of course Amenhotep III looks "black".
He does if those are accurate features. That could work with R1b-V88 which is in Northern Cameroon also as well as with Siwa berbers in Egypt but the specific clade of R1b was not mentioned. R1b-V88 is an African clade although it's parent is believed to be Eurasian
Although, Rb1- V88 originated in Eurasia it was lingering in Africa since Neolithic times. Therefore, it can't be considered foreign anymore. The same goes for the mtdna U6.
Bear in mind, that there is no African R-V88 older than 5300 years from their MRCA as to YFull tree.
quote:
R1b-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel … R1b-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R1b-V88 about 12.3 kya. (…) the R-V88 lineages date back to 7.85 kya and its main internal branch forms a “star-like” topology, suggestive of a demographic expansion. More specifically, 18 out of the 21 sequenced chromosomes belong to branch 233 … The coalescence age of this sub-branch dates back to 5.73 kya, during the last Green Sahara period. Interestingly, the subjects included in the “star-like” structure come from northern Africa or central Sahel, tracing a trans-Saharan axis.” - D’Atanasio et al. 2018 “we identified R1b-V88 markers in 10 mainland European ancient samples, all dating to before 3000 BC. Two very basal R1b-V88 (with several markers still in the ancestral state) appear in Serbian hunter-gatherers as old as 9,000 BCE, which supports a Mesolithic origin of the R1b-V88 clade in or near this broad region. The haplotype appears to have become associated with the Mediterranean Neolithic expansion … it is found in an individual buried at the Els Trocs site in the Pyrenees (modern Aragon, Spain), dated 5,178-5,066 BC and in eleven ancient Sardinians of our sample. Interestingly, markers of the R1b-V88 subclade R1b-V2197, which is at present day found in most African R1b-V88 carriers, are derived only in the Els Trocs individual and two ancient Sardinian individuals. This configuration suggests that the V88 branch first appeared in eastern Europe, mixed into Early European farmer (EEF) individuals (after putatively sex-biased admixture), and then spread with EEF to the western Mediterranean. (…) A west Eurasian R1b-V88 origin is further supported by a recent phylogenetic analysis that puts modern Sardinian carrier haplotypes basal to the African R1b-V88 haplotypes. The putative coalescence times between the Sardinian and African branches inferred there fall into the Neolithic Subpluvial (“green Sahara”, about 7,000 to 3,000 years BCE). … our analysis provides evidence that R1b-V88 traces back to eastern European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and later spread with the Neolithic expansion into Iberia and Sardinia.” [And from there into Africa] - Marcus et al. 2020, Supplementary Information, p.25
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: there is no African R-V88 older than 5300
what ancient human remains are there in Africa bearing R1b-V88 ?
I'm not aware of any ancient Africans with the hp R1b-V88. Anyway, I was referring to the hp and not to human remains.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: there is no African R-V88 older than 5300
what ancient human remains are there in Africa bearing R1b-V88 ?
I'm not aware of any ancient Africans with the hp R1b-V88. Anyway, I was referring to the hp and not to human remains.
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: there is no African R-V88 older than 5300
this implies there there was 5,300 year old R1b-V88 found in Africa
But suppose there was So if there was older R1b-V88 in Serbia or Sardinia is there some amount of time of a haplogroup being in another place that changes it to being "not foreign" yet has not mutated into a new clade?
I think it's possible R1b-V88 even originated in Africa but I can't say it's probable until some ancient remains are found there
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: The only person in King Tut's family Egyptologists consider as having a possible foreign origin, is Yuya. They pointed out, that his features are not classically Egyptian.
Yes, we are very much aware of that. However even if assuming that Yuya was the biological maternal grandfather of Tut, he still does not account for the conjectured Y-DNA which is inherited patrilineally from father to son or the mtDNA which is inherited matrilineally from mother to child.
It seems that you've missed my point since I know how to read genetic studies, thus the difference between mtDNA and Y-DNA. My point was, that with this sparse info, we can't really tell whether the ancestry of King Tut was foreign or not. In fact, we have to take this predicted hp of King Tut, Yuya, etc. with caution since they didn't snip test the Y. We don't even know whether King Tut carried the hp R1b-V88 or a rather uncommon Yamanya R1b. Hence, I referred to the mummy of Yuya. Therefore, whatever possible foreign influence King Tut may have had, it was likely mediated by Yuya.
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(497-518) Maternal and Paternal Lineages in King Tutankhamun’s Family
Yehia Z. Gad – Somaia Albert Zink – Zahi Hawass – Carsten M. Pusch et al
Results Y-chromosomal data: The Y-chromosomal data of the 7 male mummies are collectively shown in Table 3. Those subjects included 4 mummies from the Tutankhamun family group, and the father-son pair from another dynasty. One complete (KV55-Akhenaten) and 6 partial profiles (Amenhotep III, Tutankhamun, Yuya, TT320, Ramesses III, Unknown Man E) were obtained for the tested male subjects. On the other hand, all female mummies repeatedly tested negative. Using the Whit Athey haplogroup predictor, the most probable haplogroups obtained for the Tutankhamun family members were G2a for Yuya and R1b for KV55. Due to the incomplete profiles observed for Tutankhamun and Amenhotep III, analysis led to different probability figures, despite their concordant allele results. The haplogroup for these two mummies was thus predicted based on the full KV55 data, particularly since the relationships were confirmed through a previous study (Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647). The mummies that did not belong to the Tutankhamun lineage showed other haplotype probabilities (L and E1b1a) (TT320 previously thought to be Thutmose I (YDNA L) Rameses III and Unknown man E (E1b1a)) . It should be noted that the identified R1b haplotype in Tutankhamun, KV55 and Amenhotep III was different from those detected in the kit control DNA 007 as well as in the staff members (1 and 3) as the profiles differed in several loci
The haplogroup of one of the studied mummies (Amenhotep III) was proposed as being H2b. Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: The only person in King Tut's family Egyptologists consider as having a possible foreign origin, is Yuya. They pointed out, that his features are not classically Egyptian.
Yes, we are very much aware of that. However even if assuming that Yuya was the biological maternal grandfather of Tut, he still does not account for the conjectured Y-DNA which is inherited patrilineally from father to son or the mtDNA which is inherited matrilineally from mother to child.
It seems that you've missed my point since I know how to read genetic studies, thus the difference between mtDNA and Y-DNA. My point was, that with this sparse info, we can't really tell whether the ancestry of King Tut was foreign or not. In fact, we have to take this predicted hp of King Tut, Yuya, etc. with caution since they didn't snip test the Y. We don't even know whether King Tut carried the hp R1b-V88 or a rather uncommon Yamanya R1b. Hence, I referred to the mummy of Yuya. Therefore, whatever possible foreign influence King Tut may have had, it was likely mediated by Yuya.
Tutankhamun gets his mtDNA K from the female Thuya
His YDNA leads back to Amenhotep III R1b
(however Amenhotep III's mtDNA is H2 )
Yuya the male, was YDNA G2 and did not pass that on to Tutankhamun Thuya is the much greater influence, parents unknown because her DNA is what flowed into the the Amarna maternal line, beginning with Thuya (Tjuya below) .
posted
Recent DNA studies from Eritrea and Ethiopia shows similar lineages to those listed here. I would argue these lineages, such as K, U6, T and others have always been in North East Africa due to a common ancestor in Africa, however those lineages also spread to nearby populations outside Africa and hence became more dominant. The problem is all these models of human DNA imposes this idea that only certain lineages such as the L lineages are "African" in origin but others are not, even though all human DNA originates in Africa and many of these other non-L lineages have been in Africa for tens of thousands of years.
quote: A total of 168 different mtDNA haplotypes were observed in 270 Ethiopians and Eritreans, and 72 haplotypes were recovered in 115 Yemeni samples. Approximately one-half of both Ethiopian and Yemeni mtDNA lineages belonged to clades specific to sub-Saharan Africa , whereas the other half was divided between derived subclades of haplogroups M and N that are, with the exception of M1 and U6 lineages, more common outside Africa. Consistent with the coexistence of sub-Saharan African and Eurasian mtDNA lineages among Ethiopian, Egyptian, and Yemeni populations, the MDS plot clustered them, together with Egyptians, in between the Near Eastern and the West African and southern African clusters. It is interesting that both Semitic- and Cushitic-speaking populations of Ethiopia were close to each other and did not reveal significant differences in FST distances between themselves . The differences between Ethiopian and Yemeni populations were significant except in the case of Gurages. The highest FST distances for the Yemeni population were observed with southern and southeastern Africans. Consistent with that, the admixture analysis showed the Yemeni population as a hybrid of predominantly Ethiopian and Near Eastern maternal gene pools, which provides no significant support for gene flow from Mozambique.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Moundang and Cameroon's Fulbe harbor up to ~7,850 year old R-V4963*.
CAMEROON V4963* is from V2197 in turn from V88,V7920 in the 2nd generation. ~7,850 years old. TYRRHENIAN ISLANDS M18 is the brother of V2197 from V88,V7920 and is 1st generation. Though M18 is 1st generation, it's younger than nephew V4963. ~6,250 years old. NORTHERN 3RD OF AFRICA V1589* is from V4963*. 5,730 years old. SARDINIA V35 is the younger brother of V4963. ~4,500 years old. BULGARIA V4453,V6860 is a son of V4963* and brother to V1589*. 1,240 years old, younger still.
posted
Although now found primarily in western, northern and north-eastern Africa, haplogroup U6 descends from the western Eurasian haplogroup U, and therefore represents a back migration to Africa. Hence, mtdna U6 was for a long time in Africa, but it was not always there.
quote:
U6, on the other hand, has a broad Mediterranean distribution, with its highest extant frequencies in North Africa, and some subclades present in sub-Saharan Africa. However, basal U6* has been retrieved from two samples dating to 35–33 ka from the Peştera Muierii cave in Romania77,78 (recently confirmed to belong to the same individual79 ; labelled here as PM1/Muierii2) and an additional Palaeolithic U6 lineage from the Caucasus (~27–24 ka) was recently described80, suggesting that U6 most likely originated in Eurasia, in common with other haplogroup U subclades, and was later involved in a pre-Holocene back-to-Africa migration, probably from Southwest Asia81–84 . This must have occurred before 14–15 ka (the age of the Iberomaurusian remains in Taforalt, Morocco, the earliest known U6 lineages in North Africa85 ). The expansion of the Iberomaurusian culture into Northwest Africa dates to, or precedes, the early Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (at least 25 ka)86 .....
U6a is the largest and most widespread of all U6 clades, and the only one estimated to predate the LGM (26.9 [21.4-32.4] ka). U6a seems likely to have been restricted to the Mediterranean basin before the LGM, where its oldest branches arose: U6a1 (21.7 [14.5-29.2] ka) and U6a7 (25.2 [19.4-31.2] ka) both harbour the bulk of Iberomaurusian and Early Neolithic (EN) Moroccan lineages85,87 . In contrast, sub-Saharan branches (either in west or east Africa) all date to the post-LGM. U6a3 (18.7 [14.3-23.3] ka) shows a dual distribution, with lineages spanning from the east (U6a3d: 7.3 [1.2-13.5] ka) to the west Mediterranean (U6a3a: 12.9 [6.7-19.4] ka), and sub-Saharan west African lineages with ages ranging from the Late Glacial and early postglacial to the Neolithic: U6a3f (15.4 [9.7-21.2] ka), U6a3+150 (9.8 [2.8-17.1] ka) and preU6a3c (5.0 [0.7-9.5] ka). U6a2a (12.3 [7.0-17.8] ka) and U6a2b (9.2 [1.9-16.9] ka) date to Late Glacial/postglacial Ethiopia. U6a8, harbouring North African and southern European sequences, also dates to post-LGM/Late Glacial period (14.9 [6.5-23.8] ka)
However not in the topic's 18th dynasty samples those were H2 and K
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
U6 is African because it was apparently born in Africa where it remained over its 35,000+ years of further bifurcations, migrating from Maghreb to what today is Egypt&Sudan's political map west borders and back again after picking up E-M81/M78(?) mates.
Indigenous African U6 is no different than all the indigenous European E whatevers.
All are divorced from being labeled by the continent of upstream HG origin, lest vernacular devolve to labeling all uniparentals African since all ultimately are of African engendering.
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: The Egyptians I have in mind are from a specific time frame, dynastic and OK times. From what I have researched about them they appear to have a majority Western Eurasian ancestry.
Yes but very very few mummies have been tested for DNA and none of them from the Old Kingdom yet
Also In 2012 the DNA of Ramesses III and "Unknown Man E" believed to be his son Pentawer were analyzed by the Zahi Hawass team and were identified as belonging to haplogroup E1b1a (E-M2)
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: [QB] Although now found primarily in western, northern and north-eastern Africa, haplogroup U6 descends from the western Eurasian haplogroup U, and therefore represents a back migration to Africa. Hence, mtdna U6 was for a long time in Africa, but it was not always there.
U6 in Africa is primarily a Maghrebian haplogroup widely disturbed across North West Africa, highest frequencies, Algerian Mozabites 29%, Algerian Kabyles 18% also Mauritanians 14% and Canary Islanders 13.5% .
Oldest Egyptian U6 remains found thus far at Abusir el-Meleq, 4th century BC
Oldest Egyptian remains found thus far bearing haplogroup U are of Djehutynakht a male, governor of the the 11th or 12th dynasty, haplogroup U5
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I am not going to lie... I'm quite surprised by the results especially haplogroup K. I am now seeing some argue that the 18th dynasty was a Levantine transplant. However, I personally believe that the R1b is V88. I'm placing bets on that.
But what are the rest of you guy's thoughts? Were the 18th dynasty Levantine transplants? Or do we need actual autosomal results.
It remains interesting how the most common Rb variant of V88 is in Egypt and relates to the Berbers from West and Central Africa, with those predominately with the Siwa region.
quote: "Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis."
(Fulvio Cruciani, Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 July; 18(7): 807.)
Credit goes to Beyoku. But more importantly I hope I am not misinterpreting him. Then we have the fact that an ancient R1b-V88 has been reported in Africa via Wang et al. Sci. Adv. (2020).
Credit goes to Beyoku. But more importantly I hope I am not misinterpreting him. Then we have the fact that an ancient R1b-V88 has been reported in Africa via Wang et al. Sci. Adv. (2020).
Yall thoughts?
R1b-V88 was discovered in about 2010 and high frequencies have been known since then at highest frequencies in the Cameroon-Chad basin and also found in Siwa, Egypt, Iberia at low frequency and in 35Kya remains from Romania but it is not mentioned in the article you mention
in the article you mention They did record one individual R1b1 dated to around 1790 AD
quote:Reconstruction of the Villabruna 1 skull from Italy, a western hunter gatherer who is also the oldest known remain up to this date to carry the R1B haplogroup in Europe, and in specific he carried R1b-V88 which is mostly dominant in Africa and not related to the Indo-Europeans.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Reconstruction of the Villabruna 1 skull from Italy, a western hunter gatherer who is also the oldest known remain up to this date to carry the R1B haplogroup in Europe, and in specific he carried R1b-V88 which is mostly dominant in Africa and not related to the Indo-Europeans.
what source do have saying Villabruna 1 carried R1b-V88 ?
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posted
Again, is there a definitive study showing Tut's SNPs to be R1b in his Y chromosome and K in his mitochondria?
I find that hard to believe considering his STRs along with that of his Amarna family members.
From the JAMA report:
As many have pointed out their STRs match those of Sub-Saharans not Eurasians so how does explain this discrepancy?
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Maternal and paternal lineages in King Tutankhamun’s family. February 2020 In book: Guardian of Ancient Egypt: Essays in Honor of Zahi HawassPublisher: Czech Institute of Egyptology Project: Ancient Egyptian Genetics Project
Authors:
Yehia Z Gad,[ Somaia Ismail, Dina Fathalla, Rabab Khairat, Suzan Fares, Ahmed Zakaria Gad, Rama Saad, Amal Moustafa, Eslam ElShahat, Naglaa H. Abu Mandil, Mohamed Fateen, Hisham Elleithy, Sally Wasef, Albert R Zink, Zahi Hawass, Carsten M Pusch
quote: The AmpFlSTR Y filer PCR amplification Kit (Applied Biosystems, Foster City, California) was used to analyze the Y-chromosome specific haplotype profles. The kit included sixteen human Y-chromosome DNA markers with sizes ranging between 99 bp and 324 bp, and a mean amplifcation size of 200 bp. All markers were tetranucleotide repetitive microsatellites with the exception of DYS392, DYS438 and DYS448, which displayed, respectively, trinucleotide, pentanucleotide and hexanucleotide repeat motifs. DNA templates were amplified according to the manufacturer’s protocol with some modications that involved decreasing the concentration of primers by 40% and increasing the AmpliTaq DNA polymerase concentration by 50%. Detection of the amplified PCR products was carried out using the ABI Genetic Analyzer 3130, Data collection Software v3.0 and GeneMapper ID v3.2 (Applied Biosystems).The majority rule was employed for STR allele designation, where a predominant peak was generated at least 10 times [i.e. each exceeding the threshold of 50 relative fluorescence units] per mummy, using various bone samples from different body areas and monitored for slippage (Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647). A final consensus profile of each investigated mummy was constructed using the reproducible data of the generated partial profiles (Cowen et al. 2011, 400–406)
many have pointed out their STRs match those of Sub-Saharans
Like who besides DNA tribes with their proprietary private testing company methods?
quote:The 8 STR loci tested do not allow a fine level admixture analysis to identify percentages of ancestry from world regions or continents...
These preliminary results only suggest that based on the 8 STR markers tested for the Amarna mummies, one of these ancestral components might have been indigenous to Africa.
posted
^ From what I've seen those results are based on STRs. While they can give hints to what haplogroup the person had of course the only conclusive evidence is the SNPs (haplogroup) itself.
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A haplogroup analysis such as the above might have data as to the percentage of confidence that they are assigning a haplogroup but the outcome is one outcome. So that when they say R1b there is nothing else, each male gets one Y haplogroup, no percentages of any other haplogroup involved This is determined by Y-STRs or SNPs (not plain STRs > Y-STRS) Interestingly Yuya was predicted G2 although you cannot determine a king necessarily descending from him if you look at the tree chart for 18th dynasty
So you can see 16 Y-STRS . The STR "DYS" numbers: the D stands for DNA , Y stands for Y chromosome and S is a unique segment. .
.
. _______________________________________________
Hawass 2010 JAMA article
^ This on the other hand is autosomal DNA, entirely different DNA Most of our DNA is this not the sex chromosome Those markers start with D but are not the DYS. They are STRS but they are autosomal STRs ( a STRS). These are the ones where results are talked about in percentages of regional ancestry Often these results get further analyzed in the ADMIXTURE program and those results talked about and charted in articles
The Department of Justice and FBI used 13 Core Y-STR loci to do a forensic identification with confidence, UK was 17 and now the Dept of Justice is using 20 That chart is the Hawass data form 2010 JAMA They only show 8 so it is lacking for accuracy on ancestry but enough for them to do an article about kinship and disease pathology
quote:
NIH
PopAffiliator: online calculator for individual affiliation to a major population group based on 17 autosomal short tandem repeat genotype
Because of their sensitivity and high level of discrimination, short tandem repeat (STR) maker systems are currently the method of choice in routine forensic casework and data banking, usually in multiplexes up to 15-17 loci. Constraints related to sample amount and quality, frequently encountered in forensic casework, will not allow to change this picture in the near future, notwithstanding the technological developments. In this study, we present a free online calculator named PopAffiliator ( http://cracs.fc.up.pt/popaffiliator ) for individual population affiliation in the three main population groups, Eurasian, East Asian and sub-Saharan African, based on genotype profiles for the common set of STRs used in forensics. This calculator performs affiliation based on a model constructed using machine learning techniques. The model was constructed using a data set of approximately fifteen thousand individuals collected for this work. The accuracy of individual population affiliation is approximately 86%, showing that the common set of STRs routinely used in forensics provide a considerable amount of information for population assignment, in addition to being excellent for individual identification.
This calculator is no longer around there are others
.
So in S.O.Y Keita 2020. He took the 2010 data and with a lacking only 8 autosomal STRS ran it through the Popaffilator calculator and got these results So for instance at top of this post according to Yahia Gad's article Yuya's haplogroup was G2a and his mtDNA was K yet this Keita autosomal calculation based on 8 autosomal STRs says 93.7% SSA, Sub-Saharan African. This was similar to DNATribes chart which showed predominant Sub-Saharan African ancestry but they didn't use percentages they crated it using their own "MLI" (Match Likelihood) methods
Yuya
quote:
NIH
PopAffiliator: online calculator for individual affiliation to a major population group based on 17 autosomal short tandem repeat genotype
Because of their sensitivity and high level of discrimination, short tandem repeat (STR) maker systems are currently the method of choice in routine forensic casework and data banking, usually in multiplexes up to 15-17 loci. Constraints related to sample amount and quality, frequently encountered in forensic casework, will not allow to change this picture in the near future, notwithstanding the technological developments. In this study, we present a free online calculator named PopAffiliator ( http://cracs.fc.up.pt/popaffiliator ) for individual population affiliation in the three main population groups, Eurasian, East Asian and sub-Saharan African, based on genotype profiles for the common set of STRs used in forensics. This calculator performs affiliation based on a model constructed using machine learning techniques. The model was constructed using a data set of approximately fifteen thousand individuals collected for this work. The accuracy of individual population affiliation is approximately 86%, showing that the common set of STRs routinely used in forensics provide a considerable amount of information for population assignment, in addition to being excellent for individual identification.
I'm not sure how this calculator was identifying North African DNA Their classifications were Eurasian East Asian and sub-Saharan African
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ From what I've seen those results are based on STRs. While they can give hints to what haplogroup the person had of course the only conclusive evidence is the SNPs (haplogroup) itself.
So they mean to say that this is the full and complete sequence?
How is it possible they lived in Nile Valley region, allegedly came from the levant, but had no admixture?
Something is off here.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Assuming that IF Tut had R1b, many Euronuts thinks he has "European" ancestry but then they don't know that R1b also exists among Sub-Saharans.
I recall, he had sickle cell as well.
quote:King Tutankhamen, Egypt’s boy king, was killed by the inherited blood disorder sickle-cell disease – not malaria. So says a German team in what appears to be the best shot yet at solving the mystery of the pharaoh’s early demise. [..] But in a letter to JAMA this week, Christian Timmann and Christian Meyer of the Bernhard Nocht Institute for Tropical Medicine in Hamburg, Germany, suggest that Hawass’s observations can be explained much more elegantly by a diagnosis of sickle cell disease (SCD).
And let’s not forget, the Siwa Berbers are R1b V88 carriers. H and K are found in the Horn amongst Afrasan and Semitic speakers.
quote:Due to its geographical location, Egypt could have over time created a melting pot of various gene pools. The genetic variation outside Africa reflects only a subset of the African gene pool (Underhill & Kivisild 2007, 539-564). Studies on today’s Egyptian population samples have resulted in haplogroups that are predominantly European or west Eurasian (Stevanovitch et al 2003, 23–39; Saunier et al. 2009, e97–e103; Elmadawy et al. 2013, 338–341; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013, e80293). It was also reported that the modern Egyptian haplogroups in a study were more closely associated with non- African populations than with the West Africans (Pagani et al. 2015, 986–991). This accords with our findings that the same trend was indicated through the analysis of 18th Dynasty family members.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @Ish I just filled in my previous post
Okay, when time suits I’m going to look into the methodology they used.
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posted
If we know ancient Egyptians were tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio, like African populations from more southern regions. I guess we have to look at populations that match this.
quote:“African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations (fig. S6B).” […] “Eastern and Saharan Africans shared the most alleles absent from other African populations examined.”
(Sarah A. Tishkoff, The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans)
quote: “Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. *However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) & makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
(Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011) A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms)
quote: haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe7, 10, 17, 26, 29, 36 and most probably North Africa30, 31 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15 000–13 000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia.
The polymorphisms present in the 90 Tuareg individuals led to the identification of 53 different D-loop haplotypes (Table 1). As can be seen in the network based only on HVS-I diversity (Supplementary Material SM3), for which only 33 different haplotypes are observed, there are varying degrees of sharing of haplotypes among the analysed groups: only one belonging to haplogroup H was shared by all three groups; two haplotypes were shared by TGos–TGor and TGos–TTan; and three haplotypes were shared by TGor–TTan. Only 18 of the 33 haplotypes are unique, what is a rather low proportion when compared to most African samples.32 This is further corroborated by haplotype diversities in the three Tuareg samples, which are lower as compared with other populations – especially in the two groups of the Niger bend (0.861±0.027 in TGor; 0.910±0.037 in TGos; and 0.963±0.020 in TTan; see Supplementary Material SM4).
(Pereira L, Cerný V, Cerezo M, Silva NM, Hájek M, Vašíková A, Kujanová M, Brdička R, Salas A. - Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel).
quote:”Many of the sites reveal evidence of important interactions between Nilotic and Saharan groups during the formative phases of the Egyptian Predynastic Period (e.g. Wadi el-Hôl, Rayayna, Nuq’ Menih, Kurkur Oasis). Other sites preserve important information regarding the use of the desert routes during the Protodynastic and Pharaonic Periods, particularly during periods of political and military turmoil in the Nile Valley (e.g. Gebel Tjauti, Wadi el-Hôl)."
(Yale University Department of Egyptology, Theban Desert Road Survey and Yale Toshka Desert Survey)
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: If we know ancient Egyptians were tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio, like African populations from more southern regions. I guess we have to look at populations that match this.
That is irrelevant to whether or not they have Eurasian admixture. There are Europeans who carry African lineages yet are very much 'white' in appearance with cold adapted limb ratios no different from other Europeans.
Posts: 26289 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: If we know ancient Egyptians were tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio, like African populations from more southern regions. I guess we have to look at populations that match this.
That is irrelevant to whether or not they have Eurasian admixture. There are Europeans who carry African lineages yet are very much 'white' in appearance with cold adapted limb ratios no different from other Europeans.
Well, at least we know they weren’t cold adapted in body portions and limb ratio like Eurasians. Now that’s a fact.
Second point, I wonder why they haven’t found the Neanderthal hybridization in these African populations?
quote:“There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.
In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas [...]
Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.
In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.
This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"
(Kathryn A. Bard - Egyptians, physical anthropology of Physical anthropology)
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Firewall: The DNA They Don't Want You to See: The Untold Story of Egyptians' DNA
quote: DNA, those three letters, have revolutionized Egyptology, providing precise answers to longstanding questions. But how reliable is this information? Are scientists presenting the whole truth, or is there more to the story? In this video, we uncover the hidden aspects of DNA research that have eluded public view.
posted
Updated dna info from the ancient egypt page from wikipedia.
Ancient Egypt
quote:
Population
Estimates of the size of the population range from 1–1.5 million in the 3rd millennium BC to possibly 2–3 million by the 1st millennium BC, before growing significantly towards the end of that millennium.
Archaeogenetics
According to historian William Stiebling and archaeologist Susan N. Helft, conflicting DNA analysis on recent genetic samples such as the Amarna royal mummies has led to a lack of consensus on the genetic makeup of the ancient Egyptians and their geographic origins. The genetic history of Ancient Egypt remains a developing field, and is relevant for the understanding of population demographic events connecting Africa and Eurasia. To date, the amount of genome-wide aDNA analyses on ancient specimens from Egypt and Sudan remain scarce, although studies on uniparental haplogroups in ancient individuals have been carried out several times, pointing broadly to affinities with other African and Eurasian groups.
The currently most advanced full genome analyses was made on three ancient specimens recovered from the Nile River Valley, Abusir el-Meleq, Egypt. Two of the individuals were dated to the Pre-Ptolemaic Period (New Kingdom to Late Period), and one individual to the Ptolemaic Period, spanning around 1300 years of Egyptian history. These results point to a genetic continuity of Ancient Egyptians with modern Egyptians. The results further point to a close genetic affinity between ancient Egyptians and Middle Eastern populations, especially ancient groups from the Levant (Natufian culture).
Ancient Egyptians also displayed affinities to Nubians to the south of Egypt, in modern day Sudan. Archaeological and historical evidence support interactions between Egyptian and Nubian populations more than 5000 years ago, with socio-political dynamics between Egyptians and Nubians ranging from peaceful coexistence to variably successful attempts of conquest. A study on sixty-six ancient Nubian individuals revealed significant contact with ancient Egyptians, characterized by the presence of c. 57% Neolithic/Bronze Age Levantine ancestry in these individuals. Such geneflow of Levantine-like ancestry corresponds with archaeological and botanic evidence, pointing to a Neolithic movement around 7,000 years ago.
Genetic data on other Northern African specimens, such as the c. 15,000 year old Iberomaurusian Taforalt man, but also specimens from the "last Green Sahara" and the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic, point to the widespread presence of an (Western) Eurasian ancestry component distributed throughout Northern Africa, the Sahara, and the Horn of Africa, having arrived via back migration(s) from the Middle East starting as early as c. 23,000 years ago.
Modern Egyptians, like modern Nubians, underwent subsequent admixture events, contributing both "Sub-Saharan" African-like and West Asian-like ancestries, since the Roman period, with significance on the African Slave Trade and the Spread of Islam.
Some scholars, such as Christopher Ehret, caution that a wider sampling area is needed and argue that the current data is inconclusive on the origin of ancient Egyptians. They also point out issues with the previously used methodology such as the sampling size, comparative approach and a "biased interpretation" of the genetic data. They argue in favor for a link between Ancient Egypt and the northern Horn of Africa. This latter view has been attributed to the corresponding archaeological, genetic, linguistic and biological anthropological sources of evidence which broadly indicate that the earliest Egyptians and Nubians were the descendants of populations in northeast Africa.
Source wikipedia.
and
quote:Originally posted by Firewall:
Ancient Egyptian race controversy
Position of modern scholarship
William Stiebling and Susan Helft wrote in 2023 on the historical debate concerning the race and ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in light of recent evidence. They argued that the physical appearances would have varied along a continuum from the Delta to the Nille’s source regions in the south. The authors specified that “some ancient Egyptians looked more Middle Eastern and others looked more Sudanese or Ethiopians of today, and some may even have looked like other groups in Africa”. The authors reached the view that “Egypt was a unique civilization with genetic and cultural ties linking it to other African cultures to its south and west and to Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures to its north”.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: This was posted in another thread.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: The DNA They Don't Want You to See: The Untold Story of Egyptians' DNA
quote: DNA, those three letters, have revolutionized Egyptology, providing precise answers to longstanding questions. But how reliable is this information? Are scientists presenting the whole truth, or is there more to the story? In this video, we uncover the hidden aspects of DNA research that have eluded public view.
I have been to Egypt myself, and have seen the murals and statues. These usually are medium brown to dark brown complexioned, very similar to what you will find in most rural places in Egypt.
We have posted numerous images of these people already and compared them to these ancient murals.
One can only wonder why they havent started sampling with remains from the 1st Cataract? Because ancient Egypt developed from there…. and even further down south.
That will give us a better understanding of what happened.
One usually starts at the foundation, but here they apply a different methodology?
quote:"Another genetic examination was done as a part of a multidisciplinary study on the mummies of Ramesses III and the Unknown Man E (20th dynasty, circa 1190–1070 bc). Ramesses III was subjected to an assassination attempt by members of his harem as part of a palace coup, historically known as the Harem conspiracy and recorded in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin. The Unknown Man E was suggested to be Pentaware, the son sharing in the coup. The study concluded, on the basis of radiographic evidence, that the pharaoh was murdered during the attempt." [...] "The genetic results confirmed that both mummies had the same Y-chromosome molecular signature, E1b1a haplotype and one set of identical autosomal alleles, suggesting a father–son relationship."
(Yehia Z. Gad et al., Insights from ancient DNA analysis of Egyptian human mummies: clues to disease and kinship, Human Molecular Genetics, 2021, Vol. 30, No. 2)
quote:“Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.”
(Michal Kobusiewicz, Joel D. Irish et al., Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt, Gebel Ramlah—a Unique Newborns’ Cemetery of the Neolithic Sahara (2009, 2018))
These people are telling us our eyes are deceiving us.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ Unfortunately the (largely Western) media has done a great undertaking in portraying the Egyptians a certain way. It was only back in high school when I was introduced to the concept that ancient Egypt was African and not 'Near Eastern'. Although these concepts were introduced to me by an African American history teacher, I began doing research of my own ended up going down the rabbit hole-- Hamitic Caucasoid, Mediterranean 'Brown race' etc.
I've even met and spoke to actual Baladi Egyptians in college who informed me of the Afrangi occupation of their country from the Arabs, to Mamluks, Ottomans, etc. And of course Ausar, who despite being a fraud, confirmed everything my Egyptian associates said.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the DNA results of the Giza samples from the Pyramid era, that Hawass referred to.
Posts: 26289 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Unfortunately the (largely Western) media has done a great undertaking in portraying the Egyptians a certain way. It was only back in high school when I was introduced to the concept that ancient Egypt was African and not 'Near Eastern'. Although these concepts were introduced to me by an African American history teacher, I began doing research of my own ended up going down the rabbit hole-- Hamitic Caucasoid, Mediterranean 'Brown race' etc.
I've even met and spoke to actual Baladi Egyptians in college who informed me of the Afrangi occupation of their country from the Arabs, to Mamluks, Ottomans, etc. And of course Ausar, who despite being a fraud, confirmed everything my Egyptian associates said.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the DNA results of the Giza samples from the Pyramid era, that Hawass referred to.
Nubian Struggle Silenced for centuries (YouTuber: Nuba Nada).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Unfortunately the (largely Western) media has done a great undertaking in portraying the Egyptians a certain way. It was only back in high school when I was introduced to the concept that ancient Egypt was African and not 'Near Eastern'. Although these concepts were introduced to me by an African American history teacher, I began doing research of my own ended up going down the rabbit hole-- Hamitic Caucasoid, Mediterranean 'Brown race' etc.
I've even met and spoke to actual Baladi Egyptians in college who informed me of the Afrangi occupation of their country from the Arabs, to Mamluks, Ottomans, etc. And of course Ausar, who despite being a fraud, confirmed everything my Egyptian associates said.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the DNA results of the Giza samples from the Pyramid era, that Hawass referred to.
Posts: 115 | From: north america | Registered: Jan 2014
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posted
What's the even about meeting & chatting with Khemitian students at university?I've met Khemitian s by buying their falafels & buying snacks @ petrol stations they run.I would've trust or take 'ol boy Hawass's words any further than throwing him off a tekhen.Some African American teachers are lackeys subservient to Euro program distortions.
Posts: 115 | From: north america | Registered: Jan 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Unfortunately the (largely Western) media has done a great undertaking in portraying the Egyptians a certain way.
A lot of people in West tend to have a stereotypical image of North Africans as well as Middle Easterners, assuming they all have what we consider a "tan-skinned" phenotype and that they always looked that way. It wouldn't be so bad if a lot of people didn't cling to that stereotypical image and either minimized the darker-skinned elements in those populations or wrote them off as all mixed with sub-Saharan slaves or migrants. i find it perpetually frustrating, and even more so when it's coming from people I thought weren't racist or reactionary.
posted
There is a Coptic community in Atlanta, and they often get mistaken for Puerto-Ricans, Cubans, or Dominicans i.e. Caribbean types of mixed African ancestry. They know the common factor with their looks is the 'African' many could pass as African Americans.
So this 'Arabesque' look that has been romanticized in the media is a joke.
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The supplement reveals some interesting information.
Figure S9. Distribution of mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplogroups in the ancient African genetic clusters. We show (A) the distribution of Y haplogroups in each genetic cluster, (B) distribution of mitochondrial haplogroups in each genetic cluster. The haplogroup information of every genetic cluster is detailed in Table S10.
Code for bioinformatics tools and data workflows is provided at GitHub (https://github.com/DReichLab/ADNA-Tools and https://github.com/DReichLab/adna-workflow).Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Supplementary Materials for Ancient genomes reveal complex patterns of population movement, interaction, and replacement in sub-Saharan Africa.
Figure S9. Distribution of mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplogroups in the ancient African genetic clusters. We show (A) the distribution of Y haplogroups in each genetic cluster, (B) distribution of mitochondrial haplogroups in each genetic cluster. The haplogroup information of every genetic cluster is detailed in Table S10.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ The findings obviously contradict the initial Mota study claims of "massive Eurasian admixture" in the region.
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