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Arab Sudanese are the most anti-Africans of all “Arabs”, however they have probably the most dubious “Arab” genealogy: just read how it is easy to become an Arab in Sudan (highlighted part)
R S O’Fahey, ‘A complex ethnic reality with a long history’, International Herald Tribune, 15 May 2004.
CHICAGO, May 15, 2004 — The genocidal war in Darfur, Sudan’s westernmost province, is being presented in the news media as a war between Arabs and Africans. This simplifies and misrepresents a very complex ethnic reality.
Darfur, an area about the size of France, has three ethnic zones. The northern includes Arab and non-Arab, mainly Zaghawa, camel nomads. The central zone is inhabited largely by non-Arab sedentary farmers such as the Fur, Masalit and others, cultivating millet. In the south there are Arabic-speaking cattle nomads, the Baqqara.
All are Muslim, and no part of Darfur was ever ethnically homogeneous. For example, once a successful Fur farmer had a certain number of cattle, he would ’’become’’ Baqqara, and in a few generations his descendants would have an ’’authentic’’ Arab genealogy.
Historically, Darfur was a sultanate, established around 1650 and dominated by the Fur people, but ruled by a title-holding elite recruited from all the major ethnic groups. Under the sultan, the settled peoples, basically non-Arab, were able to control or keep out the nomads; the sultanate’s ultimate sanction was heavy cavalry.
The sultanate was destroyed in 1874. Although today’s conflict is much bloodier, as a historian I am struck by the parallels between the present situation and the 1880s. When the sultanate was restored in 1898 by Ali Dinar, he spent most of his reign driving the nomads back, until he was killed by the British in 1916. They then discovered that they had no alternative but to continue his policy. They also kept the old ruling elite intact; many of today’s educated Darfurians are descended from that elite.
From 1916 to 1956, Darfur was a backwater ruled by a handful of British officials. Its only resource was young men who migrated eastward to find work in the cotton schemes between the Blue and White Niles. It was only in the mid-1960s that Darfurians, both Arab and non-Arab, began to enter the national political arena and assert their own identity.
When I first went to Darfur in 1968, members of the ruling elite helped me with my field work, providing me with informants and documents. They wanted their history told.
One of the root causes of the present crisis goes back to the 1980s, when prolonged droughts accelerated the desertification of northern and central Darfur and led to pressure on water and grazing resources as the camel nomads were forced to move southwards. Conflicts over wells that in earlier times had been settled with spears or mediation became much more intractable in an era awash with guns. The situation disintegrated with the decision of the prime minister in the mid-1980s, Sadiq al-Mahdi, to give arms to the Arabic-speaking cattle nomads, the Baqqara, of southern Darfur, ostensibly to defend themselves against the Sudan Peoples Liberation Army, or SPLA. No one was surprised when they started to turn the guns on their northern neighbors, the Fur, Masalit and others. The SPLA exacerbated the situation by trying to open a front in southern Darfur. It was at this point that the Arab tribal militias, first called Murahilin, now Janjaweed, began to get out of control.
The ethnicization of the conflict has grown more rapidly since the military coup in 1989 that brought to power the regime of Umar al-Bashir, which is not only Islamist but also Arab-centric. This has injected an ideological and racist dimension to the conflict, with the sides defining themselves as ’’Arab’’ or ’’Zurq’’ (black). My impression is that many of the racist attitudes traditionally directed toward slaves have been redirected to the sedentary non-Arab communities.
The racist dimension comes to the fore in reports of rape and mass killings, cynically supported by the Khartoum government, which is determined to retain control over the area. The reason is simple: a possible oil pipeline through Darfur.
The tragic problem is that a few observers, military or otherwise, in a place the size of Darfur - where there are virtually no roads, a fragile ecology and where the old order has broken down - will not be enough. And what country or countries would send the kind of force needed in Darfur?
The Janjaweed will be very tough to stop; they have a fully developed racist ideology, a warrior culture, weapons and plenty of horses and camels - still the easiest way to get around Darfur. The genocide in Darfur will be very hard to bring to an end even if there is the will among the international community to do so.
R.S. O’Fahey, a professor of African history at the University of Bergen, Norway, is currently with the African studies program at Northwestern University.
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The British also carry some responsibility for dividing northern Sudan from southern Sudan. What you read from early British scholars like Macmichael enforce racist ''Hamitic'' idealology saying that northern Sudanese are connected to Hindus. This is not something I fabricated.
Darfur and southern Sudan have both historically been huge areas of slave raiding and trading.
The Baggara Arabs are as dark as southern Sudanese groups. Infact, they are just Arabized Nilotic people. Even the name Baggara is attached to pastorial activites much like Nilotic people of southern Sudan.
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bagara is the Arabic word for cow www.hrw.org/reports/1999/sudan/SUDAWEB2 We all know that cows is more typical of African herders than Arab herders...
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The British also carry some responsibility for dividing northern Sudan from southern Sudan. What you read from early British scholars like Macmichael enforce racist ''Hamitic'' idealology saying that northern Sudanese are connected to Hindus. This is not something I fabricated.
Darfur and southern Sudan have both historically been huge areas of slave raiding and trading.
The Baggara Arabs are as dark as southern Sudanese groups. Infact, they are just Arabized Nilotic people. Even the name Baggara is attached to pastorial activites much like Nilotic people of southern Sudan.
This is also information that I gently caution Dr. Winters with regards to.
In his zeal to connect Africa to India, he quotes sources who in fact claim that all the civilisations of Sudan come from India.
Note: they exempt Egypt from this, because they prefer to connect Egypt with Europe, and not India.
And Winters must have known this because he cites his sources *bibliographically* but writes his own interpretation rather than quoting directly - which would leave the reader with no doubt of the anti-African thesis that his sources are *really* proferring.
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Baggara The Baggāra are a grouping of Arab ethnic groups inhabiting the portion of Africa's Sahel mainly between Lake Chad and southern Kordofan, numbering over one million. They are known as Baggara in Sudan, and as Shuwa/Diffa Arabs in Chad and West Africa. Their name derives from the Arabic word (Arabic: بقارة) literally meaning "Cowman". They have a common language which is one of the regional varieties of Arabic. They also have a common traditional mode of subsistence, nomadic cattle herding, although nowadays many lead a settled existence. Nevertheless, collectively they do not all necessarily consider themselves one people, i.e., a single ethnic group. The term "baggara culture" was introduced in 1994 by Braukämper. The political use of term "baggara" in Sudan denoting a particular set of tribes is limited to Sudan. It often means a coalition of majority Arabs and a few indigenous African tribes (mainly Fur, Nuba and Fallata) with other Arab tribes of western Sudan (mainly Guhayna), as opposed to Bedouin Abbala Arab tribes. The bulk of "baggara Arabs" live in Chad, the rest live, or seasonally migrate to, southwest Sudan (specifically the southern portions of Darfur and Kordofan), and slivers of the Central African Republic, South Sudan, and Niger. Those who are still nomads migrate seasonally between grazing lands in the wet season and river areas in the dry season.
Their common language is known to academics by various names, such as Chadian Arabic, taken from the regions where the language is spoken. For much of the 20th century, this language was known to academics as "Shuwa Arabic", but "Shuwa" is a geographically and socially parochial term that has fallen into disuse among linguists specializing in the language, who instead refer to it as "Nigerian Arabic" or "Chadian Arabic" depending on the origin of the native speakers being consulted for a given academic project. The term "Shuwa" is peculiar to the region of Borno State in the tip of northeastern Nigeria, where it is used by the majority of non-Arabic speakers to describe the Arabic speakers among them.
Origins and divisions The origin of the Baggara is undetermined. According to a 1994 research paper, the group arose in Chad from 1635 onwards through the fusion of an Arabic speaking population with a Fulani population. DNA tests indicate they have a common lineage with Chadic and Fulani speakers.Like other Arabic speaking tribes in the Sahara and the Sahel, Baggara tribes have origin myths claiming ancestry from specific Arab tribes who migrated directly from the Arabian peninsula or from other parts of north Africa.
Baggara tribes in Sudan include the Rizeigat, Ta’isha, Beni Halba, and Habbaniya in Darfur, and the Messiria Zurug, Messiria Humur, Hawazma, and Awlad Himayd in Kordofan, and the Beni Selam on the White Nile. For complete and accurate account about Baggara tribes, see: Baggara of Sudan: Culture and Environment. The Misseiria of Jebel Mun speak the Nilo-Saharan language of their traditional neighbors, Tama (Tama as spoken by this tribe is also called Miisiirii).
The small community of "Baggara Arabs" in the southeastern corner of Niger is known as Diffa Arabs for the Diffa Region. They occupy the shore of Lake Chad and migrated from Nigeria since World War II. Most of the Diffa Arabs claim descent from the Mahamid clan of Sudan and Chad.
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Different rebel forces have join together to overthrow the regime in khartoum.
South sudan is free but renewed fighting is happening in northern sudan and these guys (REBELS)are great fighters.
Let's hope they overthrow those those arab rulers who want to arabized all sudanese of northern sudan.
The hill nubians in the nuba hills along with others there have join forces with darfur rebels and eastern sudan rebels backed by ethiopia and south sudan to get rid of the north sudan leaders.
The sudanese army has had many losses and hopefully they lose the war.
To keep up to date with the latest on the war check this out.
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Those fanatic black Arab have mismanaged Sudan with their fanatic Islamist religion, prejudice ethnicism and slave trading behavior.Its time for those black Arab to let black African rule Sudan.
Sudan the birthplace of Nile Valley civilization was named the Land of God and the Land of the Ancestor Spirits by the Kamite.The original black Arab of the Arab peninsula were Kushite immigrant from Sudan.They returned to Sudan in the Islamic era and degraded the great Sudanese African and Christian civilisation with that fanatic Islam religion and their anti African slave ideology.
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Well,i would say the original arabs were not black but those in arabia first were black.Those would be arabians.
Most of the arabs in sudan are arabized nubians. THEY ARE BRAINWASHED former Nubians. Most OF those arabs in sudan are like the Baggara above.
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Sudan Darfur rebel Khalil Ibrahim killed Source: BBC 25 December 11 17:25 ET
Darfur's main rebel group, the Justice and Equality Movement, has confirmed that its leader has been killed, but said it happened in an air strike.
Spokesman Gibril Adam Bilal said in a statement that Khalil Ibrahim and a guard died when missiles struck their camp at 03:00 on Thursday (00:00 GMT).
Mr Bilal said the missiles had been fired by a plane directed by a "spy".
Earlier, Sudan's army said Mr Ibrahim had died during clashes in the Wad Banda area of North Kordofan on Sunday.
Spokesman Sawarmi Khaled Sad said he had been trying to cross into South Sudan, which gained independence from the north in July.
"He was trying to sneak via North Darfur state and South Darfur state into South Sudan, but the armed forces prevented him from doing so by blocking all possible routes," Mr Sad told BBC Arabic.
But the Jem statement said Mr Ibrahim had died when missiles from an unidentified aircraft, "which were aimed with unusual accuracy for a fighter jet from the regime's army", struck his camp. It alleged that regional and international parties had colluded with officials in Khartoum.
The movement also promised to remain true to Mr Ibrahim's programme "to change the regime by all means, including military".
High-profile attacks
Mr Ibrahim founded the Jem and made it the most powerful and most heavily armed rebel group in Darfur.
He returned to Darfur from Libya this year after the fall of Col Muammar Gaddafi, who gave him sanctuary as well as military and financial aid.
The Sudanese government has accused Jem members of fighting alongside Gaddafi supporters during the uprising in Libya.
Attacks launched by the group include one on the capital, Khartoum, in 2008.
More than 220 people were killed when rebels drove across the desert to Omdurman, just across the River Nile from the presidential palace. Government troops eventually repulsed them after heavy fighting.
BBC --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Al Jazeera and agencies Profile: Khalil Ibrahim
Leader of Darfur's Justice and Equality Movement is killed by sudanese army.
Khalil Ibrahim, who was the leader of the Darfurian rebel group the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudanese Army's fiercest enemy, was killed on Sunday in a military offensive in North Kordofan region bordering the vast western region Darfur.
His movement's ideological roots lie with the National Islamic Front (NIF) which, under the leadership of Hassan Turabi, backed a bloodless coup that brought Sudan's President Omar al-Bashir to power in Khartoum in 1989.
Ibrahim, a physician, initially supported the NIF but became disillusioned with what he saw as its economic neglect of Sudanese regions.
He set up a group of dissidents called "The Seekers of Truth and Justice" and published the "Black Book" in 2000 which detailed Arab domination of Sudanese political power and natural resources.
Exiled to the Netherlands, Ibrahim announced the formation of the JEM, whose core support was limited to his Kobe sub-branch of the non-Arab Zaghawa group, which straddles western Sudan and eastern Chad.
After years of conflict, Ibrahim's group emerged as the most formidable military challenge to Khartoum's government.
In its most stunning display of might, the rebels of JEM in 2008 blazed across the desert in trucks loaded with men and guns right up to the capital's outskirts and launched an attack that shook the government. At least 200 people, including rebels, civilians and security, died in that attack.
The short-lived assault was the first of its kind by the Darfur rebels.
JEM used neighbouring Chad as a rear base, but said they received no military support from Chad’s government.
In April 2009, Ibrahim told Al Jazeera in an exclusive interview recorded at his rebel base camp on the Chad-Sudan border that JEM would seek the independence of Darfur if South Sudan became independent.
The government soon after the assult went into peace talks that produced deals with many rebel factions.
Ibrahim's group was among them at first, but it soon dropped out over disagreement on the release of prisoners and representation in a future government. He later extended his group's operation in provinces neighbouring Darfur and threatened to take the fight to Khartoum.
He tried to dominate other rebel groups in an attempt to form a unified position. But divisions along tribal lines and Ibrahim's own Islamist politics kept him from drawing a slew of rebel groups together under his leadership.
Ibrahim was, however, one of the most successful rebel leaders in securing support from Sudan's neighbours Libya and Chad in his fight against al-Bashir's regime - at least for a time.
Turn in fortune
His fortunes began to turn when the president of Chad reached a pact with al-Bashir to end his support for JEM and other rebel groups.
Ibrahim was expelled from Chad and sought refuge in Mouammar Gaddafi's Libya until Gadhafi's ouster and killing this year in that country's civil war.
Since then, Ibrahim's exact location had not been known.
Sudan's government said it attacked his convoy as he made his way to Sudan's newly born neighbour, South Sudan, which seceded from Khartoum in June as a result of a separate, decades-long war against the Arab-dominated government of Sudan.
JEM said its 54-year-old leader died in an air strike and not a "clash" with government forces. A rebel spokesman said Ibrahim was killed by a fighter plane directed by "a spy," and denied there was a battle between rebel forces and government troops. "When Khalil was attacked he was in his camp," the spokesman said.
The Darfur conflict and the related humanitarian crisis killed an estimated 300,000 people and displaced 2.7m, according to UN figures. The fighting has tapered off since 2009, but the conflict continues to simmer and local grievances over government neglect remain.
Just days ago, JEM had renewed its threats against Khartoum, saying it would take the fight from the remote western region to the capital to topple al-Bashir's regime.
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The nuba fighters said they had the might to go topple the khartoum regime has well in time.
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FarouK Abu Eissa, leader of the oppsoition alliance talks to reporters whith other oppsotion leaders on 12 June 2012 (photo ST)
January 5, 2013 (KHARTOUM) - Sudanese opposition forces and rebel groups agreed Saturday on a charter to topple the regime of the National Congress Party (NCP) and to jointly rule the country before to hold democratic elections.
Representatives of the opposition National Consensus Forces (NCF) and the rebel Sudanese Revolutionary Front (SRF) met during five days in the Ugandan capital Kampala to discuss ways to reunite their efforts to bring down the NCP regime.
Despite sharing a common goal the two sides diverged over the use of arms against the government. Also, the threat of armed movements to attack the capital and transfer the conflict to big towns discouraged the Sudanese street to move against the regime, analysts say.
The fear and distrust among the two opposition sides neutralized them and gave the regime a bigger margin to manipulate the public opinion over the intentions of the political forces and rebel groups.
NCF, SRF delegates and a number of women, youth and civil society groups signed on Saturday a 15 page document called "New Dawn Charter", calling to overthrow the regime through political and armed struggle.
The signed document however provides that the rebel alliance will support the "peaceful mass action and its transformation to a peaceful popular uprising and a key tool to bring down the regime".
The SRF also committed itself to announce an immediate and comprehensive cease-fire after the fall of the regime.
In a statement extended to Sudan Tribune SPLM-N secretary general Yasir Arman said the signatories of the first political charter since 2005 "agreed to reinforce a peaceful uprising by a joint action".
The Umma National Party was very critical to the use of arms to topple the regime saying it may disintegrate the country. It also questioned the efficiency of such approach in a country traumatised by civil wars.
The Umma party of Sadiq Al-Mahdi and the SPLM-N signed last November a joint statement calling to prioritize the non-violent action.
The signatories further decided to form a transitional council to coordinate between them and to present this document to the Sudanese people and the international community but also it would prepare the interim government after toppling the NCP’s regime.
The Charter also calls to establish solid relations with the newly independent South Sudan based p, the shared interests, social and historic relations. The signatories also pledge to cooperate closely on the different fields with Juba in a way to reunite the two nations on new basis.
The New Dawn Charter, on the other hand, includes different dispositions about the central and regional governments during the 4-year interim period where a national parliament is to be constituted and a large national unity government led by a president will be formed.
The transitional assembly will prepare a new constitution after debating over issues related to relationship between the religion and the state, the voluntary unity between the different regions, unity in diversity and land ownership, among others.
All the opposition forces except the Popular Congress Party say they are for the "Civilian State" an expression used to designate the need to maintain a clear line between politics and religion in Sudan.
The issue of the land is included to address the demand of Darfur groups to expel Arab groups who arrived during the recent years to the region while the voluntary unity principle comes in response to a recent demand some SPLM-N members particularly from the Nuba Mountains raised to preserve their cultural heritage.
The African Union mediation proposed to hold direct talks between the Sudanese government and the SPLM-N but Khartoum rejects the offer asking the rebels to lay down their arms.
Also, the government since the independence of South Sudan called on the opposition forces to engage consultations over a new constitution but it refuses their demand to dissolve the current parliament and to form a new national government before to discuss a new fundamental law.
The Umma party says the national process towards a democratic transition in the country should also include the ruling National Congress Party. But, it is not clear how a national forum gathering the rebel and the government together with the opposition forces can be organised.
Approximately 1,000 Soldiers Join the Ranks of the Sudan People's Liberation Army-North's "Regime Topple Brigades"
At a secret training camp in South Kordofan, the Sudan People's Liberation Army-North (SPLA-N) has graduated new soldiers to its all-volunteer army. Approximately 1,000 recruits in three "regime topple brigades" will join an estimated 25,000 SPLA-N soldiers; among them are teachers, farmers, merchants and mothers.
Nuba Reports spoke to one of these graduates, Afaf, a 33-year-old mother from Kadugli, the Sudan Armed Forces (SAF)-controlled capital city where the war began. She is among about twenty other women who joined the ranks recently from the second "regime topple" unit. Afaf acknowledged that the circumstances of her life are unique. "For a woman, yes, the traditional place is the kitchen," she said, but the current escalation of violence between the Sudan Armed Forces and rebel groups like the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-North (SPLM-N) demand a new way of being. "Even in the kitchen," she said, "the Antonov is still flying over us."
The daily appearance of the Russian-made Antonov planes casts a violent shadow over the population living in the SPLA-N stronghold of South Kordofan. Nuba Reports confirmed more than 220 bombs dropped from the aircrafts in the region in December. While many volunteers for the SPLA-N are trained to fight, others are merely trained to survive.
Brigadier General Arwa, explained that the rebel movement, SPLM-N, teaches citizens the skills for coping in a combat zone. Volunteers are educated within the ranks of the SPLA-N and employed in administrative and public services. "We as Nuba have realized that we are targeted through several forms, we are targeted as ethnicity, we are targeted for our lands, for its richness," Arwa said. "As a result, the leadership of SPLA-N and SPLM-N thought that people must be ready against this targeting."
Willing recruits arrive at the camps in increasing numbers, Arwa said, traveling by foot from villages near the Nuba Mountains, areas frequently targeted by aerial bombs. But not all recruits hail from the small villages in South Kordofan. Many soldiers come from large cities such as Khartoum, Port-Sudan, Medani and Gadarif to train with the SPLA-N. General Arwa anticipates the number of volunteers to keep growing as tensions flare between the SAF and SPLA-N and violence increases.
When questioned about recent accusations that the SPLA-N recruited minors, Arwa insisted that was untrue. Gesturing to the camp, he said that the training grounds are open to observers and human rights organizations. "Whenever we get a chance for the people to go to schools," he said, "we immediately take them there. We have enough men and women capable to carry weapons and protect our lands." Having educated citizens is the best way to fight back against the ruling powers in Khartoum, he suggested. "We are working to make sure the windows of education are maximally open," Arwa said. "If you recruit someone by force, they will never stay."
South Kordofan's Former Deputy Governor Calls for Toppling Bashir's Regime 9 June 2011 Regime
Khartoum — A leading figure from the Sudan people Liberation Movement (SPLM) and the former deputy governor of South Kordofan Abdel-Aziz Al-Hilu denied reports that he was injured and called for removing the central government in Khartoum led by president Omer Hassan Al-Bashir.
In an interview by phone with the London based Al-Sharq Al-Awsat newspaper published Thursday, Al-Hilu said that he is in the capital town of Kadugli leading "the battle for dignity to accomplish the fundamental change in the center".
Al-Hilu called on the Sudanese people to join the battle for toppling the Bashir government in order to obliterate all forms of marginalization including political, economical, social, religious or cultural. He stressed that the country's conflicts cannot be resolved by allocating positions in the government adding that the crisis is not confined to South Kordofan. "These [issues] are the product of policies made in Khartoum which generates civil wars, discrimination and instability," Al-Hilu said.
The SPLM figure said that changing the government will pave the way for building the new Sudan on a new basis of justice, freedom and equality. "Toppling the regime for translating these aspirations in [the form] of a new constitution that recognizes diversity....which accomplishes democratic transformation and requirements for justice and permanent peace" Al-Hilu said.
South Kordofan state has been the scene of intense clashes since the weekend between SPLA units and Sudan Armed Forces (SAF) particularly in Kadugli and surrounding areas. It came over a week after SAF warned SPLA in Blue Nile and South Kordofan to withdraw southwards by June 1st or face action. The SPLM in control of the soon to secede South rejected the ultimatum saying that SPLA fighters in these border areas are actually Northerners.
The SPLM Secretary general in Northern Sudan Yasir Arman said this week that Al-Hilu had left Kadugli since the weekend because of the "provocative" actions of the northern army. SAF and SPLA both exchanged blame on who started the fighting in the north's only oil-producing state, which borders the south and was a key battleground during the two decades civil war.
Eyewitnesses reported last Sunday that SAF tanks entered Kadugli following attacks by SPLA on police stations the night before. The Northern army later said that it clashed with SPLA in Umm Dorain which is about 12km south east of Kadugli and was forced to withdraw after suffering casualties.
Disputed elections for governor last month have also heightened the tensions in Kadugli. The state governor, Ahmed Haroun, was re-elected this month on the ruling National Congress Party (NCP) ticket when running against Al-Hilu. The latter refused to recognize the result alleging fraud but did not threaten any military backlash. On Thursday the Sudanese president announced that his army is flushing out rebels from the state.
"The situation in South Kordofan is under the control of the Sudanese Armed Forces which are now clearing the state of the remaining rebels," Bashir was quoted as saying by the Sudan official news agency (SUNA) today during a cabinet meeting.
Yesterday the NCP leadership council headed by Bashir met and declared that political solution will not work in South Kordofan and said that the army is given a free hand to quell the rebellion. Al-Hilu in his interview accused Bashir of intentionally seeking a fight in the state to avoid the deliverable of popular consultation stipulated by the 2005 Comprehensive Peace Agreement (CPA).
Under the CPA, South Kordofan is meant to hold a so-called popular consultation to decide whether the agreement has met the aspiration of the state's people and resolve any pending issues related to its implementation. Khartoum is trying to avoid paying the entitlement of popular consultation, but we will not give it up even if it leads to another twenty years of war, and there is no concession at all of these rights" Al-Hilu said. "We fought for twenty years, and have learned from that war, and the NCP has nothing but tyranny and arrogance. They now declared war, and voided the agreement, and they have to bear the consequences and we will not go back to dialogue with them again, because they betrayed an accord we reached a few days ago and assassinated SPLA who were working as part of joint units" he added. Al-Hilu revealed that they are investigating whether Egyptian UN peacekeepers in the area conspired with SAF saying the contingency has a "criminal" history. He said that the SPLA is in firm control of the state.
The United Nations said on Thursday that the fighting was ongoing and had spread across the state. "There is still fighting today in Kadugli and it has spread to other locations, including Kauda and Talodi," said Kouider Zerrouk, a spokesman for the UN Mission in Sudan (UNMIS), referring to towns in the eastern part of the state.
Antonov bombers and low-flying MIG fighter jets were observed combing the hills around Kadugli, according to UN sources, where SAF has also been shelling SPLA positions since Tuesday. A witness in Kadugli, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Agence France Presse (AFP) on Thursday that while the fighting had abated in the town, the security and humanitarian situation was deteriorating.
On Wednesday, police fired tear gas at a group of more than 100 Christians to force them out of a church compound where they were gathered, the witness said, while the Popular Defence Forces, a militia now part of the Sudanese army, were seen conducting house-to-house searches for SPLA troops. There were also clashes on Thursday in Deleng, around 100 kilometres (60 miles) north of Kadugli, a witness there said.
Khartoum — A leading figure from the Sudan people Liberation Movement (SPLM) and the former deputy governor of South Kordofan Abdel-Aziz Al-Hilu denied reports that he was injured and called for removing the central government in Khartoum led by president Omer Hassan Al-Bashir. president
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SPLA, sent its reinforcement into Nuba Mountains and Durfur to capture the Sudanese Capital Khartoum
Thursday, 27th December 2012
Public Statement
The SPLA which is commanded by Lt. Gen. Salfa Kiir Mayardit successfully sent its troops into Nuba Mountains and Durfur to strengthen the Sudanese Revolutionary Force (SRF). The reinforcement was designed to weaken the Sudan Armed Force (SAF) and to seize the Sudanese Capital Khartoum without delay. The reporter said that the SPLA-South and Sudanese rebels will be confronting the ((SAF) sooner to overthrow the current regime Khartoum.
The source stated that most of the soldiers who were deployed in these two regions are SPLA (B) members. The members of this group are used by their masters (Dinkas) to combat against Sudan Armed Force (SAF) and South Sudan Armed Revolutionary Force (SSARF). The second-class-citizens soldiers who refuse to fight against (SSRF) and the (SAF) are tortured to death and their payments are cancelled for good.
The members of the SPLA (A) are sent into the Warfield to provide orders to the members of the (SPLA (B) because they believe that they are the (first-class-citizens) of the young country.
The SPLA split into two armed groups such as SPLA (A) and SPLA (B). The SPLA (A) was formed few months ago to encourage and promote slavery, dinkanisation and forceful garangnisation in South Sudan. In addition, the purpose of the SPLA (A) is to promote Dinkasm and defend the Dinkas against other ethnic communities in South Sudan. SPLA (A) works closely with Garangsm Special Armed Guards (GSAGs) founded by Lt. Gen. Kuol Manyang Juk so that the Dinkas can keep on dominating South Sudan through the use of maximum force.
The SPLA (B) was designed for (second-class-citizens) of South Sudan. A reliable source mentioned that the members of the SPLA (B) are not allowed to join the SPLA (A) because they live under slavery. They totally lost power to the SPLA-Dinka-extremists in the year 2002-2003.
The members of the SPLA-South and the Sudanese rebels are trained in South Sudan by the Uganda Defence Force (UDF) headed by President Yoweri Museveni to seize the Khartoum through the barrel of the gun.
The Regional Cooperation Agreement (RCA) signed between the Sudan and South Sudan in the presence of the International Community (IC) in Addis Ababa in 2012 was dishonoured by the SPLA (A). The war between Juba and Khartoum will soon be automatically resumed because the (SPLA) transported and deployed more troops into Nuba Mountains and Durfur Region to faster topple the existing regime in Sudan.
Signed;
Yien Lam Tot
The author is an Advocate for Situational and Behavioural Leadership theories and he holds Associate Diploma of Sustainability, Associate Diploma of Administration, Diploma of Business, Diploma of Human Resources, Diploma of Management and a Postgraduate Leadership Degree.
He is the current Chairman of the South Sudan National Resistance Movement (SSNRM).
General Headquarter (GHQ) of the (SSNRM), Malual Gawhoth, Region (10).
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I was thinking,even if the rebels overthrow the regime and create a democratic sudan the arabs could still be in power down the road since i think they maybe the largest group or ethnic group in sudan.
So if the rebels win i don't think they will stick around to be a part of the new sudan.
They would want to have there own homelands more free from the northern part of northern sudan. The rebels just want to get rid of arab rule period and i don't think you could do that with a democratic sudan because the numbers are not in there favor i think of the africans since the arabs maybe the largest group.
I don't clearly know how large the arab population is in sudan so these other groups would have to have a more free homaland.
I think the rebels in the long term want to free thier areas more so and if that's the case then sudan will break up some more.
If that's the case then so be it.
Western sudan will be more free,and eastern sudan and the southern part of northern sudan (the nuba area)and areas around it.
The rebel forces once they take the northern part of northern sudan and leave it democratic could help the nubians in nubia to create a more free homeland for them in nubia and the black arabs would have to look in mirror since they would have lost so much and they would have say to themselves,this arab identity thing is not working.
Down the road they may want to change back to their african ethnic identity, of course with help from other blacks. They would have to take the first step to change of course.
Really great news.
Anyway this is one of the best news i have read/heard in awhile and let's hope the rebels win.
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Sudan In Sudan’s Nuba Mountains, Rebels Make Gains — and Talk of Marching on Khartoum By Alex Perry April 09, 2012
New recruits for the Sudan People's Liberation Army attend a training session at a secret camp in the Nuba Mountains of South Kordofan on July 11, 2011, in preparation for war against Khartoum
In the shade of a thorn tree on a plain of cracked earth and yellow grass, Brigadier General Namiri Murrad lays out how the rebels of southern Sudan plan to unite and overthrow President Omar Hassan al-Bashir and his Islamist regime in Khartoum. “Right now, our work is to clean our house,” he tells TIME in the embattled region of South Kordofan on April 6, flanked by four captured tanks and pickups that are mounted with heavy machine guns and missile launchers. “The Darfuris are going to clean their house, and the rebels of Blue Nile will clean their house. Then we will move together on Khartoum, and we will finish them. I cannot say when. But I can tell you it’s easier this time — Khartoum is running. They realize they are fighting for the wrong reason. They do not have heart. We are fighting with our hearts. It will be easy to finish them.”
There are reasons to share Namiri’s optimism. Slipping into territory held by Nuba insurgents in South Kordofan, a region of Sudan that borders the newly independent nation of South Sudan, it becomes apparent that a major rebel advance is under way. In the past two months, Nuba fighters from the Sudan People’s Liberation Army–North (SPLA–N) have notched a string of strategic victories, capturing the border town of Jau, the former northern administrative center of Trogi, and pushing back government troops in pitched battles involving thousands of fighters at Korongo, Tess and El Dar. Rebel commanders talk of killing hundreds, even thousands, of Sudanese troops, leaving the plains strewn with bodies — a boast given credence by the number of graves of government soldiers that now mark the sites of recent battles.
Crucially, the fleeing northern soldiers have left behind an armory of weapons: several tons of shells, mortars and mines; thousands of AK-47s and millions of rounds; artillery and anti-aircraft guns; and 127 pickup trucks in Jau alone, plus four tanks. Major General Izzat Kuku, Namiri’s boss and the acting commander of all Nuba forces, estimates that his soldiers control 80% of the Nuba Mountains, the tribe’s ancestral homeland. In effect, just the two largest cities remain in government hands — Talodi and Kalugli — and an attack on Talodi appears imminent. Namiri says that up to 1,800 troops from Khartoum’s Sudan Armed Forces (SAF) are surrounded by 3,000 of his fighters, plus two more separate forces of between 2,000 and 3,000 SPLA troops. “This is the time of our work,” says Namiri. “This is fighting, and it can always go either way, but I don’t think it will take one week to finish it.”
The implications of the Nuba rebel push are big. Last July, South Sudan split from the regime in Khartoum after more than half a century of war, in which more than 2 million people died. But the new border between North and South left three rebel provinces — Darfur, Blue Nile and South Kordofan, in which the Nuba Mountains are located — in the North. As South Sudan’s independence approached, the northern regime, apparently fearing further loss of power in a concurrent election, launched an offensive on rebels in the Nuba Mountains, who were then observing a cease-fire and even cooperating with the government in joint military units. Khartoum’s security forces first tried to disarm Nuban fighters, then went house to house allegedly arresting and killing Nuban political leaders and activists before ordering an all-out assault on the rebel territory.
TIME sneaked into South Kordofan last June and gathered testimony from more than 30 people on how northern troops were pounding Nuban villages and columns of fleeing refugees with Russian-made Antonov bombers and fighter planes, plus attack helicopters and artillery. Returning this month, TIME obtained an audio recording of a speech by South Kordofan Governor Ahmed Haroun, broadcast on government radio in October and November, in which he exhorts his troops, “I salute the Antonov, the gunships, the MiGs and artillery, supporting you by bombing villages. When you go on your mission, if you find them, kill them, sweep them away, eat them. Do not bring me any prisoners of war. We have no quarter for them.” When TIME relayed a summary of its reporting in June to Luis Moreno-Ocampo, chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court (ICC), he noted that the court had already issued arrest warrants for al-Bashir and Haroun for allegations of similar conduct in Darfur. Jehanne Henry, Sudan specialist at Human Rights Watch, adds, “It certainly appears war crimes are being committed. The government is not discriminating at all between military and civilian. It seems to have decided to take them all out.”
If the Nuba rebels are pushing Khartoum’s forces out of South Kordofan, that should allow for an influx of humanitarian relief, which will be desperately needed in the coming months, since Khartoum’s bombings have prevented many villagers from farming. But if the insurgents’ advance in South Kordofan leads to a united rebel offensive against Khartoum and an attempt to bring down al-Bashir’s regime, that will have global significance. Sudan’s rebels would then be attempting to accomplish what the ICC, decades of sanctions, high-volume celebrity advocacy, endless human-rights investigations and even, in 1998, a U.S. bombing of Khartoum have failed to do: reform, tame or even topple one of the world’s pariah states. Chief among its crimes: hosting Osama bin Laden for five years in the 1990s, enriching the center of the country at the expense of its peripheries and trying to impose by force an Arab-dominated, Islamist uniformity on a population whose patchwork of faiths, languages and ethnicities were the definition of heterogeneity.
That, Namiri and Izzat say, is the rebel plan. On Nov. 12, 2011, the Nuba SPLA–N formed an alliance with rebels from Sudan’s two other southern states — including SPLA–N fighters in Blue Nile, to the east, and fighters from the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) in Darfur, to the west. They called the united force the Sudan Revolutionary Front (SRF). One of its leaders, Yasir Arman, declared that “all Sudan is a theater for [its] operations, including Khartoum.” Izzat tells TIME the SRF has contacts with opposition groups in Khartoum that “may organize people in an uprising — though this will not happen unless we get there and they have people to protect them.”
Izzat, Namiri and several other rebel commanders interviewed by TIME insist that support from their former comrades in South Sudan is limited to advice, food and fuel supplies, medical treatment and diplomatic support. This is not, they insist, a South Sudanese proxy war against its old enemy, pointing out that the South is still overtly fighting Khartoum’s troops at several places along its border. Moreover, the sheer amount of weaponry the Nuba rebels have captured from Khartoum’s troops — seen by TIME — would seem to suggest that, at least for now, they have no need of more lethal outside support.
Khartoum is a long way away from the Nuba Mountains, and rebels, like the politicians they hope to become, have a habit of overstating their chances of victory. Though several hundred JEM fighters helped the Nuba rebels take Jau, it’s far from clear that the dynamics of the new alliance would survive the test of war. Perhaps most important, fighting the Sudanese army in its own territory is a very different proposition than fighting it in areas it has never truly ruled and where it lacks popular support. Nevertheless, after decades of fighting, the rebels are confident the momentum is with them. “They made the wrong calculation when they attacked us,” says Izzat. “A northern conscript soldier who has done two weeks or a month of training cannot defeat a guerrilla force that’s been fighting for 27 years. One soldier of ours can defeat a platoon of theirs. We will all go together to Khartoum. If not this year, then next year or the year after.”
PHOTOS: George Clooney Arrested in Washington While Protesting at Sudan Embassy
Alex Perry is TIME's Africa bureau chief, based in Cape Town and covering 48 countries across the continent. He has worked for TIME for 10 years, in Africa and Asia and the Middle East.
I Found something interesting that i have read before but kind of forgot about it until now,BUT THE Meidob nubian civilization i just learned about now.
Meaning i knew they had one but i did know enough of the details until just now.
I looked it up.
Clearly they were not has advanced it seems has the nile valley nubian civilization but they had a civilization of course.
It's a part of nubian civilization,nile,hill nubian and Birked.
I have TO look up what was the level of the Birked nubians.
There seems to be less info on them compared to the others.
They must have had a civilization too but what level? and did they had cities like nile and Meidob nubians?
Hill nubians had at least one city or maybe two and the rest towns AND villages but that city the sudanese arabs took over recently or this year or last year could have been a town in the past until recently but i am not sure.
If it was town they would still have a civilization since you are need town and certain other things to be called a civilization.
They need to get it back anyway.
_____________________________
quote- During this time the kingdom of Nubia was a power and its kings treated as equals with those of Egypt and other countries of the Near East. Its chief legacy to modern times is in the Nubian language, spoken in various dialects from Silsileh in Egypt to Debba in the Sudan, and which, in spite of being surrounded for centuries by Arabic speech, has maintained its hold on the people and is still vigorous and cherished, although no longer written.
Its culture was predominantly that of a nation of riverain peasant cultivators, as are the modern Nubians, but it maintained contact with and influenced peoples in the desert to east and west. Pieces of the characteristic pottery of the kingdom of Dongola have been found in the Khor Nubt in the Red Sea Hills, and an inscription in Old Nubian has been found in the Abu Negila hills of northern Kordofan.
Where these people of Nubian speech came from may never be known with certainty, but the close resemblances between some of the languages of the Nuba hills, of Jebel Meidob, in the far west, and river Nubian suggests that they came from the west and south west. The inscription of the Axumite king Aezanes in the year A.D. 350 speaks of 'Noba' at Merod. This may well refer to Nubians, and if so, it is their first appearance in history.
In the year A.D. 297 the Roman Emperor Diocletian called in a people known as the Nobate from the oases of the western Egyptian desert, to defend the southern frontier of his Empire at Aswan from the raids of the Blemmyes, who arc probably the Beja of the Red Sea Hills.
These Noba and Nobatae settled along the river, and soon the original population had intermarried with them and adopted their language. The Blemmyes were defeated, as is known from the Greek inscription of Silko at Kalabsha which may be dated about A.D. 530. Here Silko, who calls himself 'Basiliskos' or kinglet of the Nobatae, describes fighting the Blemmyes from Ibrim to Shellal and extracting an oath of submission from them.
________ The Meidob Nubian civilization. Meidob Hills.
As shown in Figure 18, the Meidob Hills are located in Jebel Meidob in the north- eastern corner of the Darfur providence. These hills are a concentration of volcanic hills and deep ravines. The depression in the west side of the hills is known as the Malha crater, which contains valuable deposits of rock salt and muddy salt. This crater also has fresh water springs and a small lake. The salt gathered from the lake by the Meidob inhabitants is sold to the neighboring Arabs on the trade markets (McGregor 2001:116). Archaeological sites containing cities, stone borrrows, and rock paintings are found all over the hills. The hills were populated by groups of people who spoke a Nubian related language, and were semi-nomadic. This region?s ruins, the language, a tradition of matrilineal succession, and a claim by the Meidobis to be Mahas Nubians in origin are all usually offered up as proof of rising influence in Darfur by Christian Nubians (McGregor 2001:116).
Nubians likely migrated to Jebel Meidob from Kordofan, not the Nile Valley. Traditional customs found to be Nubian from the Nile Valley were likely brought in over time through trade and further migrations. During the rainy season, the deserts of the north attract the herds from the Zaghawa and the Meidob from Darfur (O?Fahey 1980:2). Artifacts found within these cities place the occupancy up until the presence of iron tools around the 15 and 16 centuries (McGregor 2001:120).
Within the lava field of the Malha crater in the Meidob Hills is a large unwalled settlement known as the Malha City. This city consists of stone-ridged huts, with the stone remains consisting of fortification on the perimeter (McGregor 2001:118). The cities of Malha and Abu Garan are estimated to have supported population sizes of 6,000 people during a time of significantly higher rainfall.
In the Meidob Hills, people thrived on a salt trade in the city of Malha (O?Fahey 1980:3). The origins of the Meidobis are estimated to be somewhere around the later Meriotic culture of the Nile Valley, and transitioned in the Tora culture of early Darfur (McGregor 2001:120). groups: Nobiin is located near the Nile River, the Meidob is located in the Meidob hills of north-eastern Darfur, the Birged (Birked) is located in Central Darfur, the Kenzi- Dongola is located near the Nile River, and the Hill Nubian is located near the northern and northwestern Nuba mountains near Kordofan (McGregor 2001:120). The inhabitants of the Meidob Hills are divided into four sections: the Uri located in the northern hills, the Torti whom are located in the west hills, the Shelkota whom are located in the southern hills, and the Wirdato whom are allied with the Shelkota in the southern hills. The Shelkota line of kings has gone through three dynasties, and the last dynasty passed through its generations until the late 19 century (McGregor 2001:116).
The settlement pattern of the Meidob Hills located in Jebel Marra is quite different than the rectangular architecture complexes built by the Tila Island inhabitants. Variation in the traditional building styles of the Meidob Hills and Tila Island are present by basic structural shape and size transition, as well as overall settlement size reduction. As shown in Figure 19a and 19b, housing complexes of the Meidob Hills were mainly created out of stone, and in a circular shape that became the dominant shape of huts and mosques affiliated with the Fur architecture style from the 17 century to the present. The barrows of the Meidob Hills served as shelter, religious centers, and tomb complexes. Though the Meidob inhabitants worshipped Islam, they also kept the practice of worshipping holy stones in their religious complexes. Ceremonies of worship were primarily for making rain for the lakes in the city of Malha.
__________ Read this too. and Nubia Bulletin nubiaproject.org
posted
I spoke to richard lobban the nubian expert. He is a legitimate nubian expert has well.
THERE seem to be a confusion,he believe that nubians from darfur and the hill nubians did come from the nile,but it's the time period scholars are debating about,not if they came from there or not.
He agrees that there origin is from the darfur and the Kordofan region but all of them went to the nile valley,but some left the nile in ancient times at varied time periods and when they got to their places that's when the split of the nubian languages began or something like that.
So most of the nubians outside the nile did not come to their new places in the middle ages or early modern times,most came thier in ancient times,but some did came from the nile in later times and absorb or assimilated in the nubian region they went to outside nile.
You find a few darfur and hill nubian in the nile.
Kept mind more work need to be done because of the war. The info on the internet does not make it clear most of time so folks have to be careful when they read,plus it's good to get other sources of info or read varied books.
RIC Archaeologist Lobban and Team Discover Lost Temple
quote:ETROIT (FinalCall.com) - The United States and the United Kingdom are themselves causing, and then exaggerating, a “crisis” in the African “Motherland’s” largest and possibly wealthiest country—the Sudan—as it’s now called “Darfur,” the country’s president said directly in a live-interactive satellite video conference Feb. 23 with members of the Nation of Islam and reporters attending the Saviours’ Day 2007 conference at Cobo Conference Center. The U.S. and British news media have consistently exaggerated the death toll in Darfur, just as the U.S. has consistently changed its definition of what Sudan must do, in order to gain Western approval of its peace efforts, according to Pres. Omar al-Bashir.
“There is a problem, and the main cause of that problem is the rebellion,” said Pres. Bashir during the un-rehearsed, and un-censored conversation, which was also broadcast live on Sudanese state-run television. “We’ve done everything possible to try to convince those who bore arms against the state and the people, but all efforts and mediation failed,” he said.
Western, so-called “experts” say an estimated 200,000 to even 400,000 people have been killed and 2.5 million driven from their homes in Darfur since 2003. The true number is closer to 9,000, stated Pres. Bashir.
Pres. Bashir acknowledged that his country is facing a “problem” in Darfur, but he blamed rebel groups that did not sign on to a peace agreement concluded in Abuja, Nigeria in May 2006. Those groups became the focus of media attention, as well as the recipients of aid and arms from outside of the country, he said.
First, there were what the brown-skinned president who would be considered “Black” in the U.S., called “false” charges that his “White, Arab” government enslaved some of its “Black,” African countrymen, and even engaged in rape and genocidal “ethnic cleansing” in order to rob and dominate the country’s Black population in the southern regions of the country. Those charges were proven to be hoaxes by investigative reports.
“Talk of Arabs killing Blacks is a lie,” said Pres. Bashir in what may have been the first inter-active video conference between an African head of state with a Black group in this country. “The government of Sudan is a government of Blacks, with all different ethnic backgrounds,” he continued. “We’re all Africans. We’re all Black.”
The Black “slavery” charges were made to politically bolster the Sudanese People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) and the Liberation Army—the SPLA—in the final months before the conclusion of a 19-year civil war.
With the help of former U.S. Senator John Danforth, a Republican from Missouri, the Islamic government negotiated a peace agreement with the rebels, led by John Garang. The U.S. promised that it would lift economic sanctions against Sudan once the peace treaty was put in force. After concluding a peace agreement in neighboring Nairobi, Kenya, the Sudan is now governed by a “national unity” government, including a Vice President, and several cabinet members from the South.
But then, the Darfur crisis erupted when tribal and cultural differences between nomadic herdsmen and farmers spilled into bloodshed. The U.S. again promised to lift sanctions and a peace agreement was reached last year in Abuja, Nigeria, which included the use of a peace-keeping force of nearly 10,000 troops from the African Union. But the U.S. and British paid more attention to the rebel groups which did not join the Abuja Accord, than it did to those who signed it, said Pres. Bashir.
“There is a problem, and the main cause of that problem is the rebellion,” he said. “We’ve done everything possible to try to convince those who bore arms against the state and the people, but all efforts and mediation failed,” he said.
In response to questions from reporters, Pres. Bashir reiterated his rejection of calls for the deployment of some 22,500 U.N. peacekeepers and police to take over the African Union mission in Darfur, saying it would effectively place Sudan under U.N. control, and he compared the attempt to the U.S. intervention in Iraq.
Nation of Islam Chief of Staff Leonard Farrakhan Muhammad, who extended the invitation to Pres. Bashir, said after the speech it was an important message for the Nation and for others to hear.
“Whatever happens in Africa is the business of Black people,” he declared. “Don’t you dare suggest this is beyond the business of the Nation of Islam.”
There is no “conspiracy” between the Nation of Islam and the Islamic government in Khartoum, the Sudanese Ambassador to the U.S. told the crowd at Detroit’s Cobo Hall. Any U.S. group can prove the openness and accessibility of the Sudanese government by issuing an invitation to the Sudanese leaders, just as the Nation of Islam had done.
posted
^^^The point of me posting that article was because the president of Sudan said the conflict was not 'racially motivated' and that the Sudan was a black nation and that he also considers himself black/African. He also said the conflict being about race is being over exaggerated by the west(which I believe). So does that mean the president Bashir changed his mind since 2007? I know Al Bashir is a crazed corrupt dictator, but to say the conflict was a Arab vs Black thing is just ridiculous.
These are the supposed light skinned Arabs who were supposedly doing the killings.
^^^Can you please show me where the Arabs are?
From what I've seen the killings are mostly due to oil and not race or religion. Its has already been proven that the Darfur region had oil and so the government needed to remove the people(kill) so the oil companies could start drilling. It happened in South Sudan...This type of stuff happens all throughout Africa when valuable resources are found.
posted
Agree with your overall point, but that they don't actually look like the stereotypical Arab, doesn't mean that they don't self-identify as such. Indeed, the choice of appellations applied to their fellow Southern Animist and even (non-'Arab') Muslim countrymen when the cameras are off and the government sponsored Janjaweed militias terrorize the region suggests that there is more going on here than the official Basir government narrative of two black African parties going at each other's necks.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Agree with your overall point, but that they don't actually look like the stereotypical Arab, doesn't mean that they don't self-identify as such. Indeed, the choice of appellations applied to their fellow Southern Animist and even (non-'Arab') Muslim countrymen when the cameras are off and the government sponsored Janjaweed militias terrorize the region suggests that there is more going on here than the official Basir government narrative of two black African parties going at each other's necks.
Good point...There is no Arab look and Arab is almost like a culture which anyone can be. I forgot that they're are Arabized people. But when people think of Arabs they think of people who look like this.
Just saying.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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You're right, and people, the media and even many politicians are not making the distinction between self-identifying Arab vs biologically Arab. The whole term is highly plastic anyway, and usually has little to nothing to do with biology when it's applied to populations outside of the Arabian peninsula. For instance, Palestinians aren't biologically Arab, and neither are most Syrians and North African 'Arabs', despite their insistence that they are. They cannot be biologically distinguished from their non-'Arab' fellow countrymen in a meaningful way. One could even make the argument that modern day Arabs themselves are mostly a relatively recent composite of the aforementioned populations, but that's a different story.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're right, and people, the media and even many politicians are not making the distinction between self-identifying Arab vs biologically Arab. The whole term is highly plastic anyway, and usually has little to no biology when it's applied outside of the Arabian peninsula. For instance, Palestinians aren't biologically Arab, and neither are most Syrians and North African Arabic speaking populations. One could even make the argument that modern day Arabs themselves are a relatively recent composite of the aforementioned populations, but that's a different story.
To me Arabs are NOT one monolithic group. And it gets annoying when the media always tries to make Arabs into this one monolithic group.
And yeah I heard modern day Arabs are recent. I mean back in the Ancient Egyptian days there were no such thing as an Arab. And correct me if I am wrong, but during the pre dynastic period of Egypt, wasn't Southwest Asia sparsely populated?
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^Intuitively one would think that the peninsula was always sparsely populated compared to other regions, and that oil has been a huge factor in very recently turning that around. Haplogroup analysis seems to indicate that a large portion of the Peninsular population is derived from Neolithic era immigrants and later waves that spread the Semitic languages. This contrasts starkly with the archaeologically (but not so much genetically) attested populations who preceded these waves, of whom perhaps the predominant portion, looked absolutely nothing like the stereotyped pale faced Arab, in terms of skin pigmentation and other features. This is based on skeletal evidence, cave art, and tacit descriptions of the ancient inhabitants in ancient documents, but can be predicated based on ecological factors alone.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] You're right, and people, the media and even many politicians are not making the distinction between self-identifying Arab vs biologically Arab. The whole term is highly plastic anyway, and usually has little to nothing to do with biology when it's applied to populations outside of the Arabian peninsula. For instance, Palestinians aren't biologically Arab,
posted
You're free to believe that, of course. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. However, you will be stopped dead in your tracks (by the sheer lack of evidence), if you intend to document that claim with genetic evidence.
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Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) includes the modal haplotype of the Galilee Arabs and of Moroccan Arabs and the sister Modal Haplotype of the Cohanim, the "Cohan Modale Haplotype", representing the descendents of the priestly caste Aaron.
" Palestinians cluster genetically close to Bedouins and Saudi Arabians which could indicate a common ancestry or some recent ancestral influx from the Arabian peninsula" (Behjar 2010)
the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1) (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Muslim Arab populations in the Middle East.(Nebel 2002) The term "Arab," as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE (Eph'al 1984)
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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You're not done, Lioness. You've just associated Palestinians with a specific ancestry. Big deal. You've not at all shown what you set out to prove; that 'Arab', as applied to non-peninsular 'Arabs', has meaningful biological implications that are not shared with neighbouring populations who are traditionally seen as 'non-Arab', and that whatever connections there are, are mainly because of south to north movements (rather than the north to south movements I had mentioned earlier).
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] You're not done, Lioness. You've just associated Palestinians with a specific ancestry.
yes, high frequencies Arab specific ancestry, J1 which is believed to have originated in the heart of the Arabian penisnsula
Even higher than I emntioned earlier if looking at Cadenas 2008
(J1) haplogroup makes about 72% of Yemen people, 34% of UAE people, 58% of Qatari people, 50% of Iraq people, 55% of Palestinian Arabs, 48% of Oman People, 34% of Tunisian, and 35% of Algerian.
nobody has put up a source yet for the alternative unstandard theory that the Palestinians Arabs are not Arabs genetically
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
None of the lineages you've cited separate the Palestinians out of the West Asian sphere and into the Southwest Asian sphere of genetic affinity. You're merely citing sources that say Palestinians have general Middle Eastern ancestry. Thanks for stating the obvious.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're right, and people, the media and even many politicians are not making the distinction between self-identifying Arab vs biologically Arab. The whole term is highly plastic anyway, and usually has little to nothing to do with biology when it's applied to populations outside of the Arabian peninsula. For instance, Palestinians aren't biologically Arab, and neither are most Syrians and North African 'Arabs', despite their insistence that they are. They cannot be biologically distinguished from their non-'Arab' fellow countrymen in a meaningful way. One could even make the argument that modern day Arabs themselves are mostly a relatively recent composite of the aforementioned populations, but that's a different story. [/QB]
see you introduced the term "biologically Arab":into this thread. You should therefore be able to define what that means in order for it to be a valid term
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
An incident I witnessed
I knew a guy from Saudi. After a little hem & haw he admitted his parentage was from Nigerian hajjis who settled in Saudi.
He looked nothing like the Arab stereotype but just like a W Afr stereotype. All his mannerisms were those of other Saudis I knew.
One day a group of continental Arabs were harassing him about identity when some peninsulars stepped up to comfort him by very audibly voicing that of course he IS Arab.
This was decades ago.
On the otherhand when discussing Tibbu Tib with a group from various regions of the continent they were all very adamant about Tib's Arab identity and would not recognize him as African no matter what argument.
No Kenyans I knew even considered the Mazrui's of Kenya as anything other than Arab back then.
The vast majority of Arabs are al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah aka Mustaribes, i.e., foreign-origin arabized settlers in Arabic speaking lands whether the peninsula, the Levant, or N&E Africa. But this is the last tier behind al-'Arab ul-'Aribah (South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest purest peninsular civilization and blood lines) and al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah (mixed in upon the southerners).
Arabs are, who Arabs say, are Arab. The only reality in the "who are Arab" issue is how Arabs class themselves.
"Pure" southerners claim descent from Qahtaan. "Admixed" northerners have Adnan as ancestor. Even the Adnani al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah boil down to being Mustarib technically.
Though Mustaribes, whether inside or outside the peninsula, may be without a trace of Adnan or Qahtaan ancestry they are nonetheless Arab.
This category includes Sudanis just as much as it does Syrians and Iraqis. Are non-peninsular Mustaribe of lesser "esteem" than peninsulars whether there or settled abroad? I'd say yes.
This is why pedigree tied to an Arab paternal ancestor whether factual or manufactured is so rife in Africa particularly.
In the end it comes down to Identity Purpose & Direction. All peoples have the right of ethnic self-determination. And in any event it doesn't matter what any outsiders think.
Identity Purpose Direction
Do you have them of your own or imposed by someone else?
Who you are Where you come from What you're supposed to be about
Are these biologically determined Are these media determined Are these self-determined
The answer could class you as a pet a slave a free human being
In the west many many many African descendents allow the media to classify them and they behave themselves accordingly.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're right, and people, the media and even many politicians are not making the distinction between self-identifying Arab vs biologically Arab. The whole term is highly plastic anyway, and usually has little to nothing to do with biology when it's applied to populations outside of the Arabian peninsula. For instance, Palestinians aren't biologically Arab, and neither are most Syrians and North African 'Arabs', despite their insistence that they are. They cannot be biologically distinguished from their non-'Arab' fellow countrymen in a meaningful way. One could even make the argument that modern day Arabs themselves are mostly a relatively recent composite of the aforementioned populations, but that's a different story.
see you introduced the term "biologically Arab":into this thread. You should therefore be able to define what that means in order for it to be a valid term [/QB]
Not that there is much wiggling room, but, the last time I checked, the whole topic is about the plasticity of the Arab genealogy and the ease with which some populations become 'Arabs'. Not that the underlying definition used here matters much; the Palestinians aren't Arabs by any definition. By the lineages you cited it could be argued that the Christians and other traditionally 'non-Arabs' in the Middle East are Arabs as well, which I'm sure isn't were you were initially going with it when you boldly proclaimed ''BUT THEY ARE ARABS''.
You're just another case of someone who blindly follows the political narrative of Palestinians as some medieval invaders with no ancient and biological ties to the land that are every bit as authentic as, say, that of Sephardic Jews.
posted
You said that Palestinians and most Syrians aren't "biologically Arab". To say that is to refer to hard science rather than the plasticity of traditional claims on who is Arab. Two different things, can't have it both ways. You can't say certain people are not some way and then when asked about biology talk about plasticirt and cultural tradition
If what is biologically Arab is plastic itself that means that apart from tradition who is and who is not "biologically Arab" cannot be determined. Therefore you cannot exclude people.
In other words it is better not to say people "biologically Arab" or "not biologicllay Arab"
Furthermore if "it could be argued that the Christians and other traditionally 'non-Arabs' in the Middle East are Arabs as well" then it might be better not to pair the word Arab with biology, "Arabian DNA" might be a slight improvment and it could include a person that was religiously Christian.
The main problem is "biologically Arab" is not a scientific term. It's not used in scientfic articles or books as far as I know.
I take back "The Palestinians ARE biologically Arab" but only on condition that the term "biologically Arab" is taken back and that is the term that appeared first in the thread. How can you talk about "biologicllay Arab" and mention no biology that indicates that? In that case it's better not to use that term in my opinion
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: An incident I witnessed
I knew a guy from Saudi. After a little hem & haw he admitted his parentage was from Nigerian hajjis who settled in Saudi.
He looked nothing like the Arab stereotype but just like a W Afr stereotype. All his mannerisms were those of other Saudis I knew.
One day a group of continental Arabs were harassing him about identity when some peninsulars stepped up to comfort him by very audibly voicing that of course he IS Arab.
This was decades ago.
On the otherhand when discussing Tibbu Tib with a group from various regions of the continent they were all very adamant about Tib's Arab identity and would not recognize him as African no matter what argument.
No Kenyans I knew even considered the Mazrui's of Kenya as anything other than Arab back then.
The vast majority of Arabs are al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah aka Mustaribes, i.e., foreign-origin arabized settlers in Arabic speaking lands whether the peninsula, the Levant, or N&E Africa. But this is the last tier behind al-'Arab ul-'Aribah (South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest purest peninsular civilization and blood lines) and al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah (mixed in upon the southerners).
Arabs are, who Arabs say, are Arab. The only reality in the "who are Arab" issue is how Arabs class themselves.
"Pure" southerners claim descent from Qahtaan. "Admixed" northerners have Adnan as ancestor. Even the Adnani al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah boil down to being Mustarib technically.
Though Mustaribes, whether inside or outside the peninsula, may be without a trace of Adnan or Qahtaan ancestry they are nonetheless Arab.
This category includes Sudanis just as much as it does Syrians and Iraqis. Are non-peninsular Mustaribe of lesser "esteem" than peninsulars whether there or settled abroad? I'd say yes.
This is why pedigree tied to an Arab paternal ancestor whether factual or manufactured is so rife in Africa particularly.
In the end it comes down to Identity Purpose & Direction. All peoples have the right of ethnic self-determination. And in any event it doesn't matter what any outsiders think.
Identity Purpose Direction
Do you have them of your own or imposed by someone else?
Who you are Where you come from What you're supposed to be about
Are these biologically determined Are these media determined Are these self-determined
The answer could class you as a pet a slave a free human being
In the west many many many African descendents allow the media to classify them and they behave themselves accordingly.
The problem with self-identification is that it's often based on social, religious or economic pressure.
People will often self-identify with the group that protect more their survival or "socio-economic" interests. Blending in, so to say.
Especially true in society which are more racist and bigot. Where religious intolerance is prevalent. Societies that doesn't value personal liberty, ethnic diversity, multiculturalism, religious diversity, as much. (a dying kind of backward and barbarous society of course ).
So contrary to what you say, self-identification is often not something done to express one's liberty, diversity, true identity and uniqueness, but on the contrary, used as a way to fit in with the general social group. For example, it's probably better to be considered Arab in Saudi Arabia or Yoruba in a Yoruba village. This effect is less so when the "immigrant" community is bigger and more unified. That is when the immigrant community is more interlinked. For example, Italians in America will proclaim their ancestry with pride. In many places, the Italian community is tightly knitted. So during the world cup, you show your flag high and proud.
Obviously, other people also self-identify with their family/historical/biological lineages no matter what situation they are in. Some people truly don't care about social pressure or they live in a society which value multiculturalism, personal liberty, etc (certainly not the case in Saudi Arabia and many self-declared Muslim countries).
Sometimes, some Muslim in Africa, no matter what ethnicity they truly are will claim descendant from Saudi Arabia like their Saudi Arabian prophet Mohammad. Some will also claim Arab ancestry.
As I already mentioned, this is important in this site or for genetic study where we discuss ancestral lineages and haplogroups for example. Said quickly, "recent" immigrant people who self-identify with the local population of adoption, instead of their historical/biological ancestry, is not something good to study **ancient** population structure. They "falsify" the data to some degree.
For example, if I, an African, live in Russia or Israel and claim to be originally Russian or a Jewish person respectively in a genetic study about y-dna haplogroup or snp, I will give the false impression that African people of my genetic lineages were in Russia and Israel for a long time (well, if there's many people like me). Instead I should admit that I'm a Russian or a Jewish of African origin.
Obviously sometimes people don't recall their exact relatively recent ancient origin. People who immigrated in a region a few generations ago. Some could say: 'I think one of my great great grandfather was a native-American'.
Same thing with ancestry/genealogy DNA companies like DNA Tribes. Usually you don't care much if fellow people also live in Brazil and China (aka modern population structure) (well you may care but that's not the main interest of such study, you don't even know what fellow people you're part of). You want to know your real ancestry in Europe or Africa. You live in America, you're an American, but you want to know what ancient population (not modern) you ancestors where part of. Celtic? Saxons? Yoruba? Wolof? Natives-Americans? etc.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
The problem with self-identification is that it's often based on social, religious or economic pressure.
People will often self-identify with the group that protect more their survival or "socio-economic" interests. Blending in, so to say.
Especially true in society which are more racist and bigot.
. . .
So contrary to what you say, self-identification is often not something done to express one's liberty, diversity, true identity and uniqueness, but on the contrary, used as a way to fit in with the general social group.
. . .
Obviously, other people also self-identify with their family/historical/biological lineages no matter what situation they are in.
As I already mentioned, this is important in this site or for genetic study where we discuss ancestral lineages and haplogroups for example. Said quickly, "recent" immigrant people who self-identify with the local population of adoption, instead of their historical/biological ancestry, is not something good to study **ancient** population structure. They "falsify" the data to some degree.
You want to know your real ancestry in Europe or Africa. You live in America, you're an American, but you want to know what ancient population (not modern) you ancestors where part of. Celtic? Saxons? Yoruba? Wolof? Natives-Americans? etc.
.
There is a people in the USA once known as Colored People. Also/later they were known as the Negro People. After a few other naming peregrinations many many settled on African American.
As is well known some small percentage of them have at best miniscule to no African ancestry but phenotypically and even by genome indelineable from Europeans -- and there are indigenous Europeans who do have African deep rooted uniparentals acquired thousands of years ago.
These are sociological coloreds/negroes/blacks. Your words are very applicable to them. They should stop faking African American identity? No?
BTW National identity transcends ethnic/tribal identities. Do you know your ethnicity or tribal descent or only your nationality and a colour based subset thereof?
My ethny resides in many nations but my particular tribal subset of that ethny is primarily relegated to two countries.
Nationality is a relatively trivial and chameleon identity more important to politics and subject to change with immigration.
Nothing can or will alter my family, clan, tribe, ethnic identity unless I chose to adopt another.
Many have adopted an ethnic identity different from that of birth simply by occupation.
All free human beings have the right of self-determination including ethnic identity no matter who dislikes it for whatever reason and would like to dictate identity to a person or people, whom they do not even know.
Personally, I call that a form of fascism exercised by those who feel they have the authority to define reality or declare what reality is for others not themselves.
Anyone secure in their actual self-determined identity really doesn't care what identity any outsiders would foist on them regardless what artificial means is used be it colour or even genome.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: There is a people in the USA once known as Colored People. Also/later they were known as the Negro People. After a few other naming peregrinations many many settled on African American.
Most do not use the term "African American" these days. that was 80s and 90s. Most prefer a color identifier "black", the English word for Negro. I prefer African American but since "black" is so pervasive I sometimes use it It's similar to calling Chinese people yellows
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
As is well known some small percentage of them have no African ancestry but are phenotypically and even by genome indelineable from Europeans.
These words are applicable to them.
So should they stop faking African American identity?
that is very hypothetical do you have any examples, famous people maybe, claiming African American but have little or no African ancestry?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Kitty playing in the litterbox again. Their naming peregrinations continue. This is a very real unsettled conundrum
Identity Crisis In the Black Community: Are You African-American, Black, or American of African Descent?
In the Washington Post’s Opinion Column, Terry Collier wrote a letter to the editor denouncing the terms “African-American” as a means of identification for people of African descent.
The quarrel over how to best identify the community of color comes after the U.S. Census Bureau announced it will remove the word “Negro” from the list of options used to identify individuals of color in the 2014 Census, as opposed to waiting until 2020 as they’d initially planned. Ever since the bureau’s announcement, the community of color has experienced a bit of mixed emotions. Some people are elated, some identify with Collier and dislike the terms “African American,” and others are unfazed either way. Collier argues the term “American of African descent” is a more accurate description of the community of color and proposes the bureau use it instead of “African American.”
“First, it is more accurate,” Collier says of his/her recommended term for the community of color, “’American of African descent‘ puts the focus on our American nationality, whereas ‘African American’ implies two nationalities, a dualism and a naturalized citizenship. Those of us who are native-born ‘African Americans’ have only one nationality.” Collier continues: “Second, ‘American of African descent’ also allows for an ethnic identification, which remains important in the United States for social and official purposes. This change would have implications for the terms for other Americans. Broadly, we would now be ‘Americans of European descent,’ ‘Americans of Asian descent,’ ‘Americans of Latin American descent,’ ‘Americans of indigenous descent,’ ‘Americans of Middle Eastern descent,’ etc. Of course, terms may be combined as necessary — ‘American of African and European descent,’ say, or ‘American of Latin American and Indigenous descent.’ Let’s update our language. Let’s make it more accurate, at least until the day when all that will be necessary will be ‘American.’”
The community’s failure to pass down our history could be attributed to this identity crisis. New research shows that when parents engage their children in activities that promote feelings of racial knowledge, pride, and connection, it offsets racial discrimination’s potentially negative impact on students’ academic development. Instill identity and pride in your children NOW!
What term(s) do you believe best identify our community?
10 comments
* Here we go again! The sadness of this subject is the confusion among ourselves about our identity. I am a proud African American. Our oppressors did not refer to us as "Africans" but redefined us as "negroes." If we don't claim our African heritage as a matter of first priority, the U.S. Census will call us anything they wish.
* We are not African Americans, Africa was named after a white European Leo Africanus. We are the original people, meaning, the people from which all other people come from. Our true identity is the Asianiac Black man.
* I prefer just............... Black
* I am New Afrikan. My nation is the Republic of New Afrika
* EBONESIAN
* Negro, Colored, Black, African American, etc…Ever stopped to think that maybe your ancestors were Jamaican, Belizean, Black Hispanics, Haitian, Panamanian, etc? Who’s really to say where you came from? Slave just didn’t come from Africa.
Call yourself what you want to call yourselves and be happy with it. You are who you are. If you were born and raised in America, then you are an American no matter what descent. A lot of us are mixed with white, Indian and whoever was here during the time of slavery and beyond. There’s no telling whose cubby hole you came out of. You are who your parents are.
Makes you think that all we can ever know is what we are told or read in a book but I think it goes way beyond that. “Black” people are spread all around the world.
* I prefer to be called BLACK. It scares white folks when I refuse to be called african-amerikkkan.
* Our community is the only one that has been identified with so many labels: Negro, Afro-American, Black, Black American, African American and now its suggested American of African descent. While I identify as an African American (in attempt to identify with my Black African heritage), I think Black American of African descent best describes me. However, with our history, all of the identities of our culture should be listed as an all-inclusive, that way we are all covered or better yet, self-identification.
While we are on the subject, when I am traveling in Europe, we are not identified as African Americans, but rather Afro-Americans or Blacks. My French instructor insisted that I call myself an Afro American instead of an African American.
* When I go on a trip, and I’m asked my nationality my response has always been American. It also says American on my Pass Port!
Theres absolutly not a identity problem on my end.
I’m proud to be an American who just happens to be of a darker hue!
*
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
The problem with self-identification is that it's often based on social, religious or economic pressure.
People will often self-identify with the group that protect more their survival or "socio-economic" interests. Blending in, so to say.
Especially true in society which are more racist and bigot.
. . .
So contrary to what you say, self-identification is often not something done to express one's liberty, diversity, true identity and uniqueness, but on the contrary, used as a way to fit in with the general social group.
. . .
Obviously, other people also self-identify with their family/historical/biological lineages no matter what situation they are in.
As I already mentioned, this is important in this site or for genetic study where we discuss ancestral lineages and haplogroups for example. Said quickly, "recent" immigrant people who self-identify with the local population of adoption, instead of their historical/biological ancestry, is not something good to study **ancient** population structure. They "falsify" the data to some degree.
You want to know your real ancestry in Europe or Africa. You live in America, you're an American, but you want to know what ancient population (not modern) you ancestors where part of. Celtic? Saxons? Yoruba? Wolof? Natives-Americans? etc.
If you don't have the intention to reply to what is said in my post, there's no need to quote me then.
quote:
BTW National identity transcends ethnic/tribal identities. Do you know your ethnicity or tribal descent or only your nationality and a colour based subset thereof?
The identity of someone is like Russian nested dolls. It's all part of the same whole. Starting with one's individuality/personality, to the close family, larger family, neighborhood, city, country, ethnic group, human. Those are all part of our identity.
quote: All free human beings have the right of self-determination including ethnic identity no matter who dislikes it for whatever reason and would like to dictate identity to a person or people, whom they do not even know.
Personally, I call that a form of fascism exercised by those who feel they have the authority to define reality or declare what reality is for others not themselves.
Anyone secure in their actual self-determined identity really doesn't care what identity any outsiders would foist on them regardless what artificial means is used be it colour or even genome.
People can do what they want in life (change lifestyle, values, personality, religions,etc) and pick any identity they want but to study genetically Ancient Egypt history and ancient population structure we would still like people to say the truth about their real family/biological lineages. It doesn't prevent anybody to do what they want in life and pick any identity they want to.
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Identity Crisis In the Black Community: Are You African-American, Black, or American of African Descent?
10 Comments:
* I prefer to be called BLACK. It scares white folks when I refuse to be called african-amerikkkan.
The brother has a good point. he hit the nail on the head, however:
If anyone were to question "black" the English word for negro
then white, ie blanco would also have to be given up.
I think that's the key.
Obviously the vast majority of people don't want to give up "white" or "black" , it's a love affair
Chinese people on the other hand didn't like yellow. Native Americans didn't like being called the red man, go figure
However the so called European Americans and so called African American just love that white and black thing,
you can't have one without the other
that's why yellow and red don't fit in
Truth be told many of us are just not comfortable with Africa and Africans in general
In practice, I used both black and African-American. Caucasian/African-American seems more formal, while white/black seems less formal.
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