posted
[Please don't reply for the sake of continuity until all four of my preliminary posts are made. Thank you.]
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hawass et al Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family Journal of the American Medical Association 303 (7):638
I'm only presenting what I find to be relative to ascerning the nrY Chromosome assignment of Tut/Akhenaton/Amenhotep III and the team members responsible for the scientific work.
I'll also include funder info because of DSC inadvertantly making it possible to interpolate the alleles for the STRs.
quote: METHODS Molecular Genetics
Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem repeats (DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4, DYS437, DYS438, DYS448) were amplified ...
RESULTS Kinship Analyses
Markers DYS393 and Y-GATA-H4 showed identical allele constellations (repeat motif located in the microsatellite allele reiterated 13 and 11 times, respectively) in Amenhotep III, KV55, and Tutankhamun ...
The report has 3 tables, 6 figures, and an online eSupplement. No tabulation of Y-STR raw data is presented in the report. I was able to see neither the eSupplement nor Table 1. Characteristics of the Royal 18th-Dynasty Mummies Under Investigation (N = 16)
quote: AUTHOR INFORMATION
Corresponding Author: Carsten M. Pusch, PhD, Institute of Human Genetics, Division of Molecular Genetics, University of Tübingen, Germany Author Contributions: Drs Hawass, (Supreme Council of Antiquities, Cairo, Egypt) Gad, (National Research Center, Cairo, Egypt) ____(Ancient DNA Laboratory, Egyptian Museum, Cairo, Egypt ) Zink, (Institute for Mummies and the Iceman, EURAC, Bolzano, Italy) Pusch had full access to all of the data in the study and take responsibility for the integrity of the data and the accuracy of the data analysis. Statistical analysis: Ball, (Institute of Human Genetics, Division of Molecular Genetics, University of Tübingen, Germany) Gostner, (Department of Radiodiagnostics, Central Hospital Bolzano, Italy) Zink, Pusch Funding/Support: This study was supported by the Discovery Channel and the Brando Quilici production group. Funding was also obtained from the Mini-Graduiertenkolleg Tübingen and the DAAD (GERLS exchange program). Siemens medical donated material and installed the multislice computed tomography scanner used in the study. Role of the Sponsor: The funding organizations had no role in the design and conduct of the study; the collection, analysis, and interpretation of the data; or the preparation, review, or approval of the manuscript.
My next two posts will give what I make out as the Hg lineage.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Hawass only published the allele values for 2 STRs, DYS393 and Y-GATA-H4 as 13 and 11 respectively (see Kinship Analyses section snippet previously posted).
Using Y STR frequencies for select haplogroups I get
Since someone says the report gives DYS456 allele 15, assumingly from the eSupplement, I give its Hg freqs.
code:
hg locus 15 E3a 456 70 E3b 456 30 G 456 61 I 456 24 J2 456 44 R1a 456 30 R1b 456 36
This sparse data makes the Hg assignment a toss up between E3a and R1b favoring the former (i.e., R1b) with I a heavy also ran while E3b and R1a lag behind
but there's more to come. (OK, some statistician may rank E3b above I, so I will recognize that).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Discovery Channel broadcast information on the DNA studies of King Tut & suspected family before Hawass published "his" report with Pusch listed as its corresponding author.
The DSC broadcast showed screens with the scientific raw Y STR data of AMIII (Amenhotep III) and KV55 (Akhenaton?)
Someone identified as RealDealT claims to have come up with the values of all 16 Y STRs listed in the report using peak information from the broadcast and Applied Biosystems database. Presented below are his findings prefaced with frequencies of the major African Hg contenders E3 and R1.
In the above table 00 indicates less than .5%, blank = 0%
It wouldn't upset the balance but I don't have any frequencies for DYS635. The asterisked weight's predonderance is for R1b. Remember R1b1a is a known marker for peoples in Cameroun, Nigeria, Niger, and Siwa Oasis. It's also present in a few other northern African populations.
What further data will enable us to indicate which subclade of R1b is involved? No SNPs were reported.
[OK, floor's open for your responses now, please.]
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Thanks for sharing the specifics of the data that has been published. Honestly, the information on either DYS393 or Y-GATA-H4 alone is not sufficient to make an informed guesswork on the likely lineage at hand. What may provide a more intuitive assessment of the most probable lineage, i.e. short of the invaluable and irreplaceable unique event binary markers, is the combination of STR information, not just one or two random tandem repeats here and there. That's my 2c.
As for the "RealDealT" fellow, as I have said in the other thread before, his/her postings is questionable at this point, not only from a lack of independently verified officially published print of the findings, but also from other examinations of the same clip, the fellow supposedly extracted his/her info from. See this discussion: Link
And yes, you are right about hg R1b, not that it really matters, but simply because it has become the subject of rumor. Using some discussants' mentality, these people [mentioned: i.e. natives of "Cameroun, Nigeria, Niger, and Siwa Oasis"] would be "white", even though anyone with a good pair of eyes can clearly see otherwise, and even though, their markers are actually more upstream than any "white" peoples of Europe.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ LOL So much for the rumors then! Looks like the Euronuts are jumping the gun as usual. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In this table Row 1 lists 4 haplogroups E3a E3b R1a R1b. Columns 1 through 4 are percentages of the above Hgs associated with the STR allele of column 5.
Example: Row 2 shows that for STR DYS456 allele 15 haplogroup E3a has a frequency of 70% haplogroup E3b has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1a has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1b has a frequency of 36% meaning DYS456,15 favors haplogroup E3a.
Row 3 shows that for STR DYS389i allele 13 haplogroup E3a has a frequency of 74% haplogroup E3b has a frequency of 64% haplogroup R1a has a frequency of 71% haplogroup R1b has a frequency of 80% meaning DYS389i,13 favors haplogroup R1b.
Get the picture? And so it goes for the remaing STRs.
12 STRs are usually enough to hazard a Hg assignment. The more STRs the more surety of most probable Hg.
SNPs, not shown, are the most reliable Hg indicators. Unfortunately Hawass(2010) appears not to have sought them.
In presenting this table I assumed no bias on the part of the individual who derived the alleles from the DSC broadcast who I take to be someone interested in genetics as I am. I doubt he doctored the repeat count to make the outcome point to any particular Hg. He makes no claim to being correct in detecting all the repeat figures and himself anticipates an official release of data from the despot of data, Zahi Hawass, as do we all.
I don't understand how the medical and genetics community can condone Hawass' despotism concerning the Y STR raw data and why they don't demand the release of that information and further testing by independent labs elsewhere than Egypt where everyone cowers under Hawass.
Hawass' in Egypt by all Egyptian lab workers smacks of prejudice and discrimination that wouldn't be tolerated were any Euro official or institution to make the same demands.
I don't know if it was a lucky fluke or if DSC was being brave and giving the finger to Hawass when they allowed us the audience to glimpse the actual scientific monitor of the haplotypes. Without their money there would've been no testing yet they too feared to directly counter Hawass and forthrightly present the raw data (see the Role of the Sponsor disclaimer in an above post).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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In this table Row 1 lists 4 haplogroups E3a E3b R1a R1b. Columns 1 through 4 are percentages of the above Hgs associated with the STR allele of column 5.
Example: Row 2 shows that for STR DYS456 allele 15 haplogroup E3a has a frequency of 70% haplogroup E3b has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1a has a frequency of 30% haplogroup R1b has a frequency of 36% meaning DYS456,15 favors haplogroup E3a
12 STRs are usually enough to hazard a Hg assignment The more STRs the more surety of most probable Hg.
A hah I stumbled on 100 + percentages when I tried to add the numbers up in each row, so I knew I was reading it wrong.
quote: Originally posted by AlTakruri: SNPs, not shown, are the most reliable Hg indicators.
Unfortunately Hawass(2010) appears not to have sought them.
Hmm, would it be just to say based on that table that J,A,B etc. were not present in those sampled mummies? Or are there potentially more HGs that could have fallen outside the picture provided by the table because of the lack of enough SRTs?
quote: Originally posted by AlTakruri: I don't understand how the medical and genetics community can condone Hawass' despotism concerning the Y STR raw data and why they don't demand the release of that information and further testing by independent labs elsewhere than Egypt where everyone cowers under Hawass. Hawass' in Egypt by all Egyptian lab workers smacks of prejudice and discrimination that wouldn't be tolerated were any Euro official or institution to make the same demands.
They're on his nuts!!! They need his approval to do research in Egypt.
BTW, There were 4 females for sure among the mummies: KV35EL (EL stands for elderly lady) and KV35YL (younger lady), kv21A & kv21B. Is their Dna represented in that table? If so, I hope we will be able to find out pre-yuya alleles (KV35EL) from that table. If so, we can narrow down the options and see whether or not Yuya was responsible for bringing in the R lineages.
posted
I showed J in my 393 GATAH4 456 table. I excluded J from my 16 STR table because of its weak showing.
There's no evidence SNP or other UEP testing was carried out on the mummies hence no haplogroups are missing. 16 STRs are quite enough of haplotype to arrive at a probable haplogroup assignment.
There is no positive sure haplogroup assignment without UEPs.
The relationship is symbiotic. Hawass will lack his fame and glory without the USA media nor will have the kind of money he craves without them.
Female mummy DNA is part of the autosome analysis. Females don't have Y Chromosomes.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Thanks for sharing the specifics of the data that has been published. Honestly, the information on either DYS393 or Y-GATA-H4 alone is not sufficient to make an informed guesswork on the likely lineage at hand. What may provide a more intuitive assessment of the most probable lineage, i.e. short of the invaluable and irreplaceable unique event binary markers, is the combination of STR information, not just one or two random tandem repeats here and there. That's my 2c.
As for the "RealDealT" fellow, as I have said in the other thread before, his/her postings is questionable at this point, not only from a lack of independently verified officially published print of the findings, but also from other examinations of the same clip, the fellow supposedly extracted his/her info from. See this discussion: Link
And yes, you are right about hg R1b, not that it really matters, but simply because it has become the subject of rumor. Using some discussants' mentality, these people [mentioned: i.e. natives of "Cameroun, Nigeria, Niger, and Siwa Oasis"] would be "white", even though anyone with a good pair of eyes can clearly see otherwise, and even though, their markers are actually more upstream than any "white" peoples of Europe.
This is what I don't understand, when researching the R1b it is found in people of the Cameroon and even in the Siwa Oaisis. Why are people pointing to a European origian rather than populations like Siwa?? It it becuase of higher frequencies??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Now, I will gladly and openly admit that I have not yet taken the time to understand how genetics variations and distributions work, so any assumptions I make here could easily be wrong. Please feel free to correct me as I'm happy to learn: But what seems to stand out for me is that E3a (the so called West/SW/Central African marker) seems to be at a higher frequency than E3b (the so-called East African marker) (I've seen the term Somalid banded about, alongside others... most ridiculous of all I've seen people using the markers to define their existence, but I won't go into that!)... now, I've always been dubious about some posters willingness to attribute such titles to genetic markers, but surely the evidence provided (along with the R1b evidence) is leaning us toward a strong probability of strong 'West-African' influence in AE and the likelihood of migrations, as Diop had suggested...
Once again, just guessing here, any feedback would be appreciated. (I intend to up my 'genealogist' game in the near future, but until then, your braces are appreciated... lol)
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: ]This is what I don't understand, when researching the R1b it is found in people of the Cameroon and even in the Siwa Oaisis. Why are people pointing to a European origian rather than populations like Siwa?? It it becuase of higher frequencies??
Highest R1b is in white Europeans like the Irish, but how then did the Irish or similar "pace-setting caucasoids" get to ancient Egypt? Explorer, Takuri, Djehuti et. al. correct me as needed but R1b is thought to have originated in Asia then filtered into Europe according to some research. Various tudies have already been posted on ES on this- Arredi, Poloni etc etc.. The highest frequencies of R1b are found among white people of northern Europe, the Irish for example at 90-99%. The English have it at around 75%. The Basques, a people on the border of France in Western Europe weigh in around 80% or so. Should Tut have R1b lineages, expect a big propaganda splash from the racist Neo-nazi crowd and their sympathizers about the "white Nordic" or 'Aryan" character of Tut.
Middle easterners are minor players in the sweepstakes.Strangely enough, Middle Eastern peoples in areas close to Egypt show relatively small frequencies: Turks 15%, Iraqis 11%, Syrians 10%, UAE Arabs 4%. Reputedly "white" Berbers also show much smaller frequencies- only 16% for the Kabyles, 11% for Algerian Arabs and 7% for Moroccan Arabs. In short, proponents of a “white Nordic Egypt” will assert that the northern white Aryan peoples like the Irish, or English, or Basques bordering France have more of a claim to king Tut via this particular marker than nearby Iraqis, Syrians or Lebanese, or Berbers.
The white press will not look too closely at the data and will dutifully repeat the Hawass spin about 'Eurasian' lineages.
Hypothetically then, all will look good for the Eurocentric propaganda machine, UNTIL ... the scholars at ES ram some sticks in its gears. Because the following must also be put on the table.
a) In Africa itself, there are several "negroid" tribes with R lineages in percentages that exceed that of 'Middle easterners" or Berbers, without the need for any "Nordics." The Hausa of the Sudan for example weigh in at around 40%. Various tribes of Chad in the Saharan zone weigh in at up to 35%. As Explorer and others note, there are underived R lineages in Africa that do not rely on influx from other outside sources. The two main continental contenders in the R1b "sweepstakes" then (sarcasm) are thus the white Nordics of western Europe, and the black tribes of Africa.
(b) Now ask yourself- based on solid historical, archaeological and anthropological data, which peoples are more likely to have had significant dealings with ancient Egypt prior to the New Kingdom era with its many foreign influx? Black tribes in the nearby Sudan and the Chadic Saharan zone, or distant white Irish, English or other Europeans?
(c) Just such a scenario was put to the test by Keita in his early Nile Valley Farmers from al Badari study. In a head to head comparison of the Badari, a foundational group of ancient Egypt against white Europeans, the badari clustered much more with tropical Africans than Europeans. quote: "An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analyses and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series."(S.O.Y. Keita. Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data. Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)
(d) Several limb proportion studies show the same thing, even for the far north of Egypt in the foundational dynastic period (Zakrewski 2003, 2007, Raxter and Ruff 2008, Kemp 2005 as shown below) No major influx of the much touted "white Nordics" has been found by any credible scholar.
(e) It is clear then that Tut had more than enough scope to acquire R1b lineages WITHIN AFRICA rather than from the fantasy "wandering Caucasoids" of white Europe. The peoples of the Sudan and Saharan zone provide a more than sufficient pool for the distribution of the marker.
(f) But, some may say, doesn't the high "white Nordic" frequency prove 'Aryan' influence in the elite councils of ancient Egypt? Alas, any reputedly "incoming Caucasoids" would like blacks. Lets give the Euronuts the benefit of the doubt and say that a horde of white people from Europe flowed into Egypt way back in the Neolithic or Paleolithic to deliver genetic diversity to the natives. Ask yourself, what would these early Europeans have looked like? Would they be white? Not at all- they would look like today's blacks, according to the mainstream research of C.L Brace 2005, who found that early people living in Europe had some tropical adaptations and looked like Africans. So the touted "incoming white hordes" would look like black people to begin with. SO much for those 'Aryan" looks.
g) The neo-Nazis tried to do the same thing based on blood types, claiming that blood type A2 is found mostly in certain white populations and since traces were found in association with Tut, this proves his "white" lineage. Alas for them, Africa itself has indigenous A2, and did not need any "wandering Caucasoids" to introduce it. They will try the same bogus dodge with the R1b, but they will fail there as well.
(h) But some may argue, if the R lineages originated in Asia that would make them "non black." Not necessarily. The early peoples of Southwest Asia for example resembled today's Black Africans according to credible mainstream research. So any inflowing 'Asiatic hordes' would look like blacks to begin with. A much ballyhooed "Asiatic" origin does not conveniently whitewash away "black" populations. Alack and alas for the much touted 'Aryan' hordes.
So if our Aryan dupes make a propaganda splash, it will not last long. The burden of proof remains on them to show how Tut got his "white Aryan" lineages. After all, the white Irish and English weigh in at 99%-75% respectively on R1b which makes Tut "white." How though did said white "role models" get to ancient Egypt to give genetic diversity to Tut and the natives? We already know the answer. They didn't.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
^^^ Thank you that is exactly what I was thinking that if Tut had R1b it would be more likely that he recieved it from Africans rather than "Irish" or other Europeans. The Idea of Irish people in Egypt is too obsurd to even take serious.
I think if Tut was R1b the Media would waste no time making a big deal about it. I can see it now "Tut Boy King, Ancestor of the Irish"..lol. Honestly I don't think Hiwass will even release Tuts DNA Haplogroup.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Altakruri: I showed J in my 393 GATAH4 456 table. I excluded J from my 16 STR table because of its weak showing.
There's no evidence SNP or other UEP testing was carried out on the mummies hence no haplogroups are missing. 16 STRs are quite enough of haplotype to arrive at a probable haplogroup assignment.
There is no positive sure haplogroup assignment without UEPs.
Female mummy DNA is part of the autosome analysis. Females don't have Y Chromosomes.
Thnx for the explanation
quote: Originally posted by Altakruri: The relationship is symbiotic. Hawass will lack his fame and glory without the USA media nor will have the kind of money he craves without them.
Indeed, the USA media is where he got his ''indiana jones'' attire from in the first place.
I guess we'll have to deal with another so called ''piece of evidence'' that the Eurocentrics will be using beside their hair color, hair structure, teeth, elongated features arguments.
Yawn
quote: Originally posted by Altakruri: 16 STRs are quite enough of haplotype to arrive at a probable haplogroup assignment.
BTW, its interesting that there were no ancient ''unknown'' haplogroups like the ones that turned up in the DNA of 11th dy skeletons. Also, no R markers turned up in that study according to my knowledge. Does anyone have access to that study? Might be usefull additional information especially for those that think that they have another so called ''piece of evidence'' for their pre conceived notions. I wonder how those researchers got their hands on the 11th dy skeletons and whether or not the extracted African lineages had something to do with Hawass's strict policy in letting foreigners near the mummies and releasing their Ychromosome and Mtdna markers.
Hawass(2010) employed the 16 STRs commonly used in forensics.
The haplotype of those STRs haven't been published.
No one can say the mummies have so much of this or so much of that haplogroup based on any proposed Amenhotep/Akenaton/Tutankhamun haplotype.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Cruciani's R-V88 abstract (first posted here by Evergreen)
quote: Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%.
Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times.
Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes.
A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa.
The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: BTW, its interesting that there were no ancient ''unknown'' haplogroups like the ones that turned up in the DNA of 11th dy skeletons.
Also, no R markers turned up in that study according to my knowledge. Does anyone have access to that study? Might be usefull additional information especially for those that think that they have another so called ''piece of evidence'' for their pre conceived notions.
I wonder how those researchers got their hands on the 11th dy skeletons and whether or not the extracted African lineages had something to do with Hawass's strict policy in letting foreigners near the mummies and releasing their Ychromosome and Mtdna markers.
Kalonji
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Originally posted by Altakruri: To what report does this refer?
It refers to this:
quote: One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa. [20] The other 12th Dynasty lineages were not identified, leading to speculation. [21] Contamination from handling and intrusion from microbes have also created obstacles to recovery of Ancient DNA. [19] Consequently most DNA studies have been carried out on modern Egyptian populations with the intent of learning about the influences of historical migrations on the population of Egypt. [22] [23] [24] [25]
posted
To add to my post above R1 is not only found in Siwa but in Sudanese as well. In fact looking at the NRY of the Siwa they reflect more as a Southern Group. Southern = Sudanese/Saharan/Sahel. R1* on the most part in Africa is a southern Lineage. B-M60 and E-V6 combined = over 60% - Again, southen Ancestry.
Remember this thread: Do Siwa Berbers come from Sudan? Siwa carrying high diversity yet low frequency of E-M81 "Northern" Lineage and total Absence of Mtdna U6 Northern Lineage..
All in all I see the 18th Dynasty hailing from the Far South.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Click "Regular Download" and then click "Download" at the bottom of the page.
In order for all to understand the issue with Hawass et all and this whole fiasco oen muster understand the difference between a SNP and a STR and why SNP's were not tested for.
As the image shows a SNP shows DEEP ancestry to tie you to specific markers : E-M78, V22, V12, M81, V32 E-M2, E-m33 etc. etc. Meanwhile STR's show more recent ancestry, it is a way to distinguish for instance one group Haplogroup J lineage in Africa that date to Neolithic times vs another group of J lineage spread by Arabs in Historic times.
quote: Y-DNA Haplogroups
Haplogroups are groups or a population derived from a common ancestor. Y-DNA Haplogroups are defined by slowly evolving SNPs, and each SNP identifies a particular paternal haplogroup or branch of the Y-DNA phylogenetic tree. (Note: mtDNA SNPs are used to determine haplogroups for maternal lineages).
By contrast, the faster changing STRs are employed to determine haplotypes for the Y-DNA, where haplotypes are defined as a collection of variations in STR markers observed on the Y-DNA and can be thought of as a signature, one which tracks more recent genetic history. Frequent haplotypes, commonly known as modal haplotypes can often be associated with defined populations and geographical regions, and can be informative or predictive of haplogroups that also show geographical preferences
The problem arises that NO SNP's were identified yet FEW STR's WERE Identified. The few STR's that were identified fit on to MULTIPLE haplogroups. The MORE STR's you have the more you can narrow down the true Haplogroup but were were only given 2 or 3 published STR's. That gives ups very little to work with. These same STR's that were giving could have been given for ANY AFRICAN.
If these three STR's were given for an African from Benin or Sengal where Hap E is over 90% would we then; based on the modern frequency in the country, and other multidisciplinary factors list it as E3a or would it Hap R still be a contender. Taking the same multidisciplinary approach to Egypt, its history and MODERN makeup where Hap E is overwhelming compared to 1-2%R should R even be a contender?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
You experts correct me if I'm wrong since my knowledge of genetics is rudimentary and pretty much all that I can remember from undergrad days...
STRs are short tandem repeats of nucleotides, and they use the STR polymorphisms to test close or recent relations like paternity because the mutations that cause such variations occur more often, correct?
SNPs are single-nucleotide polymorphisms where there is a difference in a single nucleotide, but such a mutation occurs more rarely than for STR variation. And that SNP can be a form of UEP which is unique event polymorphism right?
So STR can give individual haplotype, they can only give probable hints at halpgroup or clade depending on the pattern, correct?
So the little percentages are just chances of this haplogroup or that based on STR pattern, then.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
STRs simply allow a clade to be phylogenetically placed within a particular sub-clade, with the help of and secondary to, of course, key binary markers. Yes, guesswork of the probable clade is possible from a whole set or at least a considerable section of Y STR loci. However, it is a mistake to assume that STRs cannot mislead, since STR loci have been documented in various occasions to be homoplasic. What is the significance of this; it can lead to wrong guesswork about a clade, without key binary marker information. They are also susceptible to reversions, since they are less stable than unique event polymorphisms. For an example, see: Link
As for unique event polymorphisms; they are supposed to have occurred only one time in history, which is what makes them good markers of where and when a common ancestor emerged. Clusters or haplotypes (denoted by characteristic STRs) help us track the migration path of a certain lineage, and associated possible time frames in which it occurred.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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R1b is supposed to be the Aryan haplotype...sheeesh, how long will we take this Big Lie seriously?
For what it's worth:
Distribution of Haplotype R1b in Africa: Hausa - 40% Sudan - 10% Chad - 20-35% Egyptians - 4.1% Cameroon - 20-96% !!!
Surprise, surprise, surprise - the folks in Cameroon are Aryans!
...I have this elegant bridge for sale that connects San Francisco to Marin County - make me an offer... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
But again, except for the bone head racists who get off on using speculation and hearsay as fact, there is nothing that has been released that states what lineages were found in the DNA from Tut or his family.
I don't believe that the full DNA data sets retrieved will be ever released officially. Why? Because Egyptology and the white fanatics that run it are not about facts. They want to pretend that everything about Egypt is a "mystery", especially the origins and identity of the AE people. Therefore, while not "officially" published, various writers and others will continue to support their "opinionated" views of what they believe to the the origins of the AE and the late 18th dynasty with little to no direct evidence to support their views. Which is what they always do.
Keep in mind that anyone who has access to actual scientific journals and peer reviewed publications would see that the real facts are totally different from what these publications for the general public like to put out as "popular science".
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: But again, except for the bone head racists who get off on using speculation and hearsay as fact, there is nothing that has been released that states what lineages were found in the DNA from Tut or his family.
I don't believe that the full DNA data sets retrieved will be ever released officially. Why? Because Egyptology and the white fanatics that run it are not about facts. They want to pretend that everything about Egypt is a "mystery", especially the origins and identity of the AE people. Therefore, while not "officially" published, various writers and others will continue to support their "opinionated" views of what they believe to the the origins of the AE and the late 18th dynasty with little to no direct evidence to support their views. Which is what they always do.
Keep in mind that anyone who has access to actual scientific journals and peer reviewed publications would see that the real facts are totally different from what these publications for the general public like to put out as "popular science".
I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but Black Genesis by Robert Bauval will probably be the biggest book about the race of the AEs since Black Athena. Egyptology can attempt to hide facts all they want, but it doesn't stop people out of the mainstream like Bauval who actually do real research and make real discoveries. Instead of regurgitating the same nonsense about Ancient Egypt like King Tut. I doubt there will be genetic studies in the book since Egyptian Antiquities is really tight about that. I also heard Bauval say on a program that there are a couple of documentary programs being made (he mentioned only the BBC though) about his book. It'll be interesting to see the slant they take. I've never seen a program aired on TV about Black Egyptians...or the entire race debate period.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
King, this is another radical black crap book. Nobody exept a few knuckle heads that buy into that garbage will pay attention to it.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
^^AlTakuri.. I'm still trying to understand how to read a lot of this so forgive me if this data is totally useless, but I'm just wondering if the link below may be of any help?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: STRs are short tandem repeats of nucleotides, and they use the STR polymorphisms to test close or recent relations like paternity because the mutations that cause such variations occur more often, correct?
Yes.
Commercial DNA testing companies will also use a customer's STR haplotype to identify a potential haplogroup. At that point the customer can then decide whether or not to take on the cost of a UEP test to confirm the haplotype assignment.
quote: SNPs are single-nucleotide polymorphisms where there is a difference in a single nucleotide, but such a mutation occurs more rarely than for STR variation. And that SNP can be a form of UEP which is unique event polymorphism right?
Yes.
One would expect that tests on the level of Hawass(2010) to take the 13 STR haplotypes usually used to guess a haplogroup to go ahead and then do the UEP testing neccessary to yield the haplogroup.
quote: So STR can give individual haplotype, they can only give probable hints at halpgroup or clade depending on the pattern, correct?
Yes.
quote: So the little percentages are just chances of this haplogroup or that based on STR pattern, then.
The two STRs given in the official report are not enough. It's a standard 13 STR haplotype used for guessing haplotype. Hawass(2010) has the STRs used in that haplotype but did not publish the alleles.
The alleles "derived" from the DSC broadcast are of course unofficial. The method employed did not yield unmistakeable allele values for all the STRs needed to check a haplotype against its probable haplogroup.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
JAMA is not a "pop science" publication. I imagine queries to its editors may prompt the corresponding author of Hawass(2010) to present the alleles of the published STRs.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Keep in mind that anyone who has access to actual scientific journals and peer reviewed publications would see that the real facts are totally different from what these publications for the general public like to put out as "popular science".
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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PLEASE LET'S NOT BRING THIS THREAD DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF RACE BAIT. ANCIENT EGYPT FORUM IS FOR THAT. I BROACHED THIS THREAD HERE ON EGYPTOLOGY FOR THE MORE SERIOUS MEMBERS TO CONTRIBUTE, QUERY, AND COMMENT.
posted
Much thanks for the E-M2 haplotype. For sure it's a help. The DSC "derived" composite KV55/AmIII haplotype does not match it.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^AlTakuri.. I'm still trying to understand how to read a lot of this so forgive me if this data is totally useless, but I'm just wondering if the link below may be of any help?
posted
Takruri, The conversation is over. There are no race issues left to discus unless you want to talk about the blode hair on the Yuya mummy last night.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Thats the thing, they dont list them. The article is quite short. 4 Pages
Materials and Methods
quote: Venous blood was obtained from a total of 274 unrelated adult males, living in Egypt during 1995– 1999. The choice of these individuals was based on their locations in the valley, and in each case their genealogy goes back for several generations of paternally local ancestry. These 274 males included 162 inhabitants of Alexandria and the surrounding region (representating the Delta and Lower Egypt), 66 from Upper Egypt, and 46 from Lower Nubia (Fig. 1). Genomic DNA was extracted from whole blood by the classic method, using proteinase K and several successive phenol-chloroform extractions (Gautreauet al., 1983). We used the informative p49a,f Y-chromosomespecific DNA probes (Lucotte and Ngo, 1985), mapped to the nonrecombinant (NRY) Yq11.2 region (Quack et al., 1988). Using the Southern hybridization method, these probes oligolabeled by random priming revealed 10 male-specific TaqI fragments, at least five of which (A, C, D, F, and I) were polymorphic and determined 16 main haplotypes (I–XVI) in the initial reference population studied (Ngoet al., 1986).
HAP IV
quote: Haplotype IV is characteristic of sub-Saharan populations in Africa (Torroni et al., 1990; Spurdle and Jenkins, 1992), where its geographical distribution can be an indication of Bantu expansion: for example, in Central Africa (Lucotte et al., 1994), the frequency of haplotype IV is 55.2% in Cameroon, and reaches 80.3% in Zaı¨re and up to 83.9% in the Central African Republic.
I dont have the time at this moment to dig through the others studies and see if the information is there.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
I DON'T WANT TO TALK RACE AT ALL. I WANT TO TALK HAWASS(2010) AS RELATES TO GENETIC GENEAOLOGY ISSUES WITHOUT EMOTIONALISM.
I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THIS THREAD NOT DEVOLVING TO RACE BAIT. FROM THIS POINT ON I WILL REQUEST REMOVAL OF RACIALLY CHARGED POSTS. I WANT THIS THREAD TO BE USEFUL TO WEB SURFERS WITHOUT OFFENDING ANYONE SENSIBILITIES WHATEVER RACE THEY MAY OR MAY NOT BELONG TO.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Takruri, The conversation is over. There are no race issues left to discus unless you want to talk about the blode hair on the Yuya mummy last night.
No it's not, I can't stand ASSUMPTIONS... and your sir, are ASSUMING!!
The Ancient Egyptians were Saharo-Tropical African variants, they were not European or Asian or Aliens.
All of the evidence points to Africa.
Don't be stupid.
LOL, I wouldn't call Yuya's hair blond... more like... I can't even describe his hair color. ( The next time you see indivduals with hair that color please send me a picture). Also, southwest Asians are dark haired people... WAIT, are actually claiming a Northern European origin for AE, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Doctoris, the issue is dead. Tut is not black afican, that is clear. You know you are spinning here and you can do better than that. The issue of a black egypt was on the back burner even before this. The problem you have now is that the public and the media will no longer be interested in your views. Eventually you end up like the Flat Earth society....just talking to each other.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I DON'T WANT TO TALK RACE AT ALL. I WANT TO TALK HAWASS(2010) AS RELATES TO GENETIC GENEAOLOGY ISSUES WITHOUT EMOTIONALISM.
I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THIS THREAD NOT DEVOLVING TO RACE BAIT. FROM THIS POINT ON I WILL REQUEST REMOVAL OF RACIALLY CHARGED POSTS. I WANT THIS THREAD TO BE USEFUL TO WEB SURFERS WITHOUT OFFENDING ANYONE SENSIBILITIES WHATEVER RACE THEY MAY OR MAY NOT BELONG TO.
Genius, do you realize that you only encourage the country school teacher by indirectly replying to his posts?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Doctoris, the issue is dead. Tut is not black afican, that is clear. You know you are spinning here and you can do better than that. The issue of a black egypt was on the back burner even before this. The problem you have now is that the public and the media will no longer be interested in your views. Eventually you end up like the Flat Earth society....just talking to each other.
Not really
I don't feel like having a discussion about something so obvious, Ancient Egypt was an African civilzation and that the Ancient Egyptian people's had predominant ties to people living in the Sudanic-Saharo region.
If Tut carried Haplogroup R, I'm sure the news would have been out by now. Your simply assuming due to some webster's theory, to be honest... YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT.
STOP LYING TO YOURSELF!!
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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PLEASE LET'S NOT BRING THIS THREAD DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF RACE BAIT. ANCIENT EGYPT FORUM IS FOR THAT. I BROACHED THIS THREAD HERE ON EGYPTOLOGY FOR THE MORE SERIOUS MEMBERS TO CONTRIBUTE, QUERY, AND COMMENT.
"Takruri, The conversation is over.There are no race issues left to discuss unless you want to talk about the blonde hair on the Yuya mummy last night"...
"The hair color of mummies or buried bodies can change.Hair contains a mixture of black-brown-yellow eumelanin and red pheomelanin.Eumelanin is less chemically stable than pheomelanin and breaks down faster when oxidized.It is for that reason EGYPTIAN MUMMIES have REDDISH HAIR.The color of hair changes faster under extreme conditions (example:Ginger mummy).It changes more slowly under dry oxidizing conditions (such as in burials in sand or in ice) than under wet reducing conditions (such as burials in or plaster coffins)"...
Wikipedia, Human Hair Color (changes in hair color after death, 2007)
There you have it Hammer, your blonde Egyptian fantasy was Debunked by Hair experts, and it was also prooven that some mummies hair was dyed with Henna, and with that said, your DOUBLE DEBUNKED.
Posts: 53 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
YHRD data on the DSC "derived" KV55/AmIII combined haplotype. This is what I'm using because its all anyone has to go on now. Is it official? No way. We don't know that the given haplotype is actually from KV55 and Amenhotep III. Viewing and reviewing the DSC clip reveals that at 01:18 and timeframes from 01:33 onward there's a different allele shown for DYS393 than at 01:23.
Which one, if either, is data from the Tut family tests?
With that caveat heavily in mind this is what YHRD shows when supplying a 13 STR haplotype composed of the given alleles of DYS19 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS385 and DYS439. There were no matches for the complete 16 STR haplotype.
quote: All Metapopulation: Found 3 of 54838 matching haplotypes [f=5.471 × 10-5 (95% CI: 1.128 × 10-5 – 1.599 × 10-4)] in 2 of 377 populations. Eurasian Metapopulation: Found 1 of 25192 matching haplotypes [f=3.97 × 10-5 (95% CI: 1.005 × 10-6 – 2.211 × 10-4)] in 1 of 200 populations. European Metapopulation: Found 1 of 20728 matching haplotypes [f=4.824 × 10-5 (95% CI: 1.221 × 10-6 – 2.688 × 10-4)] in 1 of 164 populations. Western European Metapopulation: Found 0 of 7690 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 4.796 × 10-4)] in 0 of 45 populations. Eastern European Metapopulation: Found 0 of 6942 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 5.312 × 10-4)] in 0 of 71 populations. South-Eastern European Metapopulation: Found 0 of 3343 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.103 × 10-3)] in 0 of 40 populations. Altaic Metapopulation: Found 0 of 1663 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.216 × 10-3)] in 0 of 14 populations. Caucasian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 0 matching haplotypes [f=0.0] in 0 of 0 populations. Uralic-Yukaghir Metapopulation: Found 0 of 909 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 4.05 × 10-3)] in 0 of 1 populations. Indo-Iranian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 413 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 8.892 × 10-3)] in 0 of 9 populations. Indian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 1479 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.491 × 10-3)] in 0 of 12 populations. East Asian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 15788 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.336 × 10-4)] in 0 of 63 populations. Korean Metapopulation: Found 0 of 3080 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.197 × 10-3)] in 0 of 9 populations. Japanese Metapopulation: Found 0 of 1642 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.244 × 10-3)] in 0 of 22 populations. Sino-Tibetan Metapopulation: Found 0 of 8572 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 4.302 × 10-4)] in 0 of 17 populations. Tibeto-Burman Metapopulation: Found 0 of 2010 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.834 × 10-3)] in 0 of 5 populations. Chinese Metapopulation: Found 0 of 6562 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 5.62 × 10-4)] in 0 of 12 populations. Austro-Asiatic Metapopulation: Found 0 of 225 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.626 × 10-2)] in 0 of 2 populations. Thai Metapopulation: Found 0 of 572 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 6.428 × 10-3)] in 0 of 2 populations. Austronesian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 1367 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.695 × 10-3)] in 0 of 9 populations. Indo-Pacific Metapopulation: Found 0 of 0 matching haplotypes [f=0.0] in 0 of 0 populations. Dravidian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 330 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.112 × 10-2)] in 0 of 2 populations. Australian Aboriginal Metapopulation: Found 0 of 0 matching haplotypes [f=0.0] in 0 of 0 populations. African Metapopulation: Found 0 of 3120 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.182 × 10-3)] in 0 of 14 populations. Sub-Saharan Metapopulation: Found 0 of 913 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 4.032 × 10-3)] in 0 of 6 populations. Afro-American Metapopulation: Found 0 of 1772 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 2.08 × 10-3)] in 0 of 5 populations. Afro-Caribbean Metapopulation: Found 0 of 435 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 8.444 × 10-3)] in 0 of 3 populations. Amerindian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 528 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 6.962 × 10-3)] in 0 of 13 populations. Eskimo Aleut Metapopulation: Found 0 of 342 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.073 × 10-2)] in 0 of 8 populations. Afro-Asian Metapopulation: Found 0 of 2710 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.36 × 10-3)] in 0 of 31 populations. Semitic Metapopulation: Found 0 of 2249 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.639 × 10-3)] in 0 of 26 populations. Berber Metapopulation: Found 0 of 260 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.409 × 10-2)] in 0 of 4 populations. Cushitic Metapopulation: Found 0 of 201 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.819 × 10-2)] in 0 of 1 populations. Admixed Metapopulation: Found 2 of 7158 matching haplotypes [f=2.794 × 10-4 (95% CI: 3.384 × 10-5 – 1.009 × 10-3)] in 1 of 48 populations.
quote: Africa: Found 0 of 2528 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.458 × 10-3)] in 0 of 25 populations. Oceania / Australia: Found 0 of 11 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 0.2849)] in 0 of 1 populations. Europe: Found 0 of 19818 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.861 × 10-4)] in 0 of 167 populations. Arctic: Found 0 of 342 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.073 × 10-2)] in 0 of 8 populations. Asia: Found 0 of 19635 matching haplotypes [f=0 (95% CI: 0 – 1.879 × 10-4)] in 0 of 100 populations. Latin America: Found 2 of 8187 matching haplotypes [f=2.443 × 10-4 (95% CI: 2.959 × 10-5 – 8.822 × 10-4)] in 1 of 69 populations. North America: Found 1 of 4317 matching haplotypes [f=2.316 × 10-4 (95% CI: 5.865 × 10-6 – 1.29 × 10-3)] in 1 of 7 populations.
code:
Population summary
n of N Geoposition [Population] Metapopulation Continent 2 of 55 Isla de San Andrés, Colombia [Afro-Caribbean, Mestizo] Admixed Latin America 1 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
quote: Eurasian - European - Western European Frequency estimates with given haplotype not included in the database: Mean: 0, Mode: 0
Frequency estimates with given haplotype included in the database:, Mean: 0, Mode: 0
Eurasian - European - Eastern European Frequency estimates with given haplotype not included in the database: Mean: 9.277 × 10-5, Mode: 4.319 × 10-5
Frequency estimates with given haplotype included in the database:, Mean: 1.423 × 10-4, Mode: 9.277 × 10-5
Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Frequency estimates with given haplotype not included in the database: Mean: 3.825 × 10-3, Mode: 3.812 × 10-3
Frequency estimates with given haplotype included in the database:, Mean: 3.838 × 10-3, Mode: 3.825 × 10-3
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: From the above forensics data I'd say the DSC "derived" haplotype interpolated from 01:18/ 02:18 is not from any Tut family member.
It appears to be the haplotype of someone living today in the Western Hemisphere.
Some oldworld hit should have surfaced if the suspect haplotype belonged to Tut's lineage.
DSC did not let slip anything under Hawass' nose.
alTakruri
-From the information you have as of present, which Haplogroup seems the most likely to have been found amoung the Amarna mummies.
From what I can comprende it's looking a lot like E3a.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
^^Excellent work alTakuri!! Thank you for digging into this a bit deeper as opposed to taking the given rumors at face value. Looking forward to more.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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