posted 17 April 2005 05:27 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

No, Arredi simply chose to ignore the work of Nebel et al. , which is suspicious in that Arredi et al. quotes the Semino et al. study on haplogroups E and J, which in turn quotes Nebel et al. :

Semino et al. 2004

“The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations…..The results are consistent with the propoal that this haplotype was diffused in **RECENT** time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century A.D., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al 2002).”

---

I downloaded the article of Semino et Al. Yes, Now I agree with you that it is a recent Arab admixture ;-) This said, Kabyles have only 10% J*.

quote:

---

I never made any such claim. It is likely that many of these lineages come from Berber males taking European wives in the Cartheginian, Gothic, Roman, and Islamic periods.

---

Excuse my sincerity, But this is big Bullshit:

"An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the "out of Africa" exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin (Richards et al. 2000). It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky."

Saami and Berbers
Achilli et al
2005

U5 is about 0% among the Kabyles, Arabs and other Berbers have 5% and less.

You still have not proven that Berbers mtdna is of recent european admixture.

posted 17 April 2005 05:33 PM            

Even when we disagree we should be able to respect each other in our differences.

posted 17 April 2005 05:38 PM            

20% for U*, 10 for U*, 25% H , HV PreHV PreV V about 10%,..etc. whether they are saharans (no contact with europeans) or coaastal.

I wish I had the whole article of Saami and Berbers (Achilli et al 2005). It would have been easier to prove you wrong and prove you a common origin to Arabs/berbers/europeans, U6 is just one of those indicators: U6 date back to 30 ky.

posted 17 April 2005 05:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
BARBARIAN BERBER, one of the things I appreciate about your posts is your civil tone.

Even when we disagree we should be able to respect each other in our differences.

I hope this discussion can continue in a civil manner. Thanks.

---

I hope so as well!! and thanks for the compliment

posted 17 April 2005 05:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[B]An important comment, if Berbers intermarried with europeans, you'd have different frequencies of mtdna relative to the place where Berbers live. How do you explain the same amount of mtdna ?

---

posted 17 April 2005 05:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

You still have not proven that Berbers mtdna is of recent european admixture.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 17 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

I never claimed that Berber mtDNA is mainly of recent European origin. What I claimed was that the mtDNA of coastal NW African Berber speakers was of recent European origin and that this makes them genetic outliers. Haplogroup H, which is the primary mtDNA lineage among coastal NW African Berber speakers is of recent (Holocene) Western European origin, not indigenous African. Here is what **YOUR** source states:

http://www.ifr26.nantes.inserm.fr/img/North_Africa.pdf

"This analysis.... suggests, in general, a significantly more extensive direct matching with European than with Near Eastern/Arabian mtDNA haplotypes."

posted 17 April 2005 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

20% for U*, 10 for U*, 25% H , HV PreHV PreV V about 10%,..etc. whether they are saharans (no contact with europeans) or coaastal.

---

Thought Writes:

Source please?

posted 17 April 2005 06:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

20% for U*, 10 for U*, 25% H , HV PreHV PreV V about 10%,..etc. whether they are saharans (no contact with europeans) or coaastal.

---

Thought Writes:

Saharan Berbers mainly have indigenous African mtDNA lineages, while NW Coastal Berber speakers have Western European lineages as the dominant lineage. As I stated, they are outliers...

Thought Posts:

Mitochondrial DNA Affinities at the Atlantic Fringe of Europe
Gonzalez et al.

2003

"...taking the **actual** frequencies for the Sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in southern northwest African samples (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians)..."

posted 17 April 2005 08:10 PM            

"....Berber languages show relatively little internal differentiation in comparison to other branches of the Afro-Asiatic..."

Thought Writes:

Meaning Berber is a younger branch of the Afro-Asiatic phylum. This corresponds with the recent TMRCA of E3b2.

posted 17 April 2005 09:48 PM            

Barbarian Berber comments:

quote:

---

E3b Originated in East Africa, But it does not mean that it was introduced in North Africa by East Africans, it's more likely from the middle east

---

Thought follows up:

quote:

---

How in the heck did E3b spread from East Africa to the Middle East and skip North Africa. Did they hop an airplane during the early Holocene. LOL! Get real…..

---

Barbarian Berber tries to clarify:

quote:

---

Through the horn of africa... traveling through the saraha was difficult (between 25ky and 10ky).

---

Indeed, as questioned earlier, in what respect were you really thinking that E3b, in particular, the Berber dominant E-M81 (E3b2) haplotype, got to the Middle East? Or have you learnt about your error in light of what was said about the Levantine corridor, and the derivative that spread to Eurasia?

posted 18 April 2005 02:00 AM            

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/roger_blench/Language%20data/AALIST.pdf

posted 18 April 2005 07:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Actualy you have blunders; foul ups; contradictions, and reversals, galore, and denial only adds to the noxious brew.

---

And you have no answers, still no answers, yet again no answers, and did I mention no answers? Linking to posts that I myself have already answered only exposes your desperation.

quote:

---

Not for you there isn't

---

No, not for you, because these two studies still prove you wrong:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Genetic evidence in support of a shared Eurasian-North African dairying origin

quote:

---

Which means you've had 3 months to come up with some answers

---

I haven't even read that 7-page-long rant which predates my arrival here, nor is its subject matter interesting or relevant to me. You're really scrounging for threads to link to . . .

. . . which is a clear sign of . . .

posted 18 April 2005 08:29 AM            

quote:

---

I haven't even read that 7-page-long rant which predates my arrival here, nor is its subject matter interesting or relevant to me

---

posted 18 April 2005 08:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Saharan Berbers mainly have indigenous African mtDNA lineages, while NW Coastal Berber speakers have Western European lineages as the dominant lineage. As I stated, they are outliers...

---

posted 18 April 2005 09:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Thought: Begs the question, what was the original mtdna makeup of the earliest Berber speakers and how we can invistigate this further?

---

Thought Posts:

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.

Ann Hum Genet. 2004 May;68(Pt 3):222-33

Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Plaza S, Calafell F, Ben Amor M, Comas D, Bennamar El gaaied A.

Laboratoire de Genetique Moleculaire, Immunologie et Biotechnologie, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis, Universite Tunis El Manar, 2092 Tunis, Tunisia.

Berbers live in groups scattered across North Africa whose origins and genetic relationships with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in North Africa. Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10,500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the North African genetic landscape. This outlier position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in haplotype frequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.

Thought Writes:

U6 and L3 seem to be present in NW Africa since the mesolithic. Berber speakers seem to have diverse, regionally based mtDNA. What unites them is their Y-Chromosome E3b2 and their language.

posted 19 April 2005 07:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
translation: you are a frustated loser with nothing to say.

---

posted 19 April 2005 08:01 AM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:
Berber speakers seem to have diverse, regionally based mtDNA. What unites them is their Y-Chromosome E3b2 and their language.

---

Both of which are African as shown by

Semino: Genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage

Arredi: the M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

Nebel: Our recent findings however, suggest that the majority of [J] chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era

Wells: No more than 20 percent of the men we sampled had Y Chromosomes [J] that originated in the Middle East. ]Most carried the aboriginal North African [E3] pattern.

Ehret: The Berber languages form a branch of Afro-Asiatic which originated in east Africa. We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from northwestern African into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East

Keita: critical reading of genetic data analysis, specifically those of Y Chromosome phylogeography and TaqI 49a,f haplotypes, supports the hypothesis of populations moving FROM the Horn or Southeastern Sahara NORTHWARD to the Nile Valley, NORTHWEST AFRICA, the Levant, and Aegean.

Newman: The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic languages

posted 19 April 2005 12:36 PM            

quote:

---

Semino: Genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage

---

E3b2 is INEXISTANT in the horn of Africa, does this exclude an east african origin for the Berbers? no.

The author meant that E3b2 is NOT arab, but this does not exclude a middle eastern origin.

quote:

---

Arredi: the M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

---

No one says the contrary. I don't even understand why you using that quote.

quote:

---

Nebel: Our recent findings however, suggest that the majority of [J] chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era

---

The majority of J-haplogroup are of J* (and J* is of arab origin), Therefore it's logic that the majority of J is of arab origin, isn't it? J2 and F who are also present in North africa and europe (same frequencies) are NOT of arab origin (makes up about).

quote:

---

Ehret: The Berber languages form a branch of Afro-Asiatic which originated in east Africa. We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from northwestern African into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East

---

I never said Afro-asiatic languages did not originate in east africa, but this does NOT mean that The Berber language came from east-africa, it's like saying that Arabic was brought to northern africa by ethipoians.

-an east african origin of the Berbers is a very seductive theory (like that, we won't have any commun origin with arabs) But I have to be honest to myself: The Capsian had a very close phenotype to that of Middle easteners.

quote:

---

Keita: critical reading of genetic data analysis, specifically those of Y Chromosome phylogeography and TaqI 49a,f haplotypes, supports the hypothesis of populations moving FROM the Horn or Southeastern Sahara NORTHWARD to the Nile Valley, NORTHWEST AFRICA, the Levant, and Aegean.

---

Please do not quote Keita.

quote:

---

Newman: The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic languages

---

posted 19 April 2005 12:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Source please?

---

S.plaza et Al

Mozabite-Berbers (24%H, 8%V, 40%U) live in the sahara:

Lol! Do you think they bought their women from europe?

just have a look on your own through the rest of the data. I hope you'll gave up your none sense.

posted 19 April 2005 12:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Thought Writes:

No, Arredi simply chose to ignore the work of Nebel et al. , which is suspicious in that Arredi et al. quotes the Semino et al. study on haplogroups E and J, which in turn quotes Nebel et al. :

Semino et al. 2004

“The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations…..The results are consistent with the propoal that this haplotype was diffused in **RECENT** time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century A.D., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al 2002).”

---

I have the "saami and Berbers" article (if you want it give me your mail), it dates back the commun origin (on the maternal side) of Berbers and europeans to the LGM.

posted 19 April 2005 01:17 PM            

"the survey of a wide range of western
Eurasian and North African populations revealed
that, in contrast to haplogroup H as a whole, which
harbors a rather uniform frequency within Europe, both
subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are characterized by frequency
peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding areas
and by declining distributions toward the northeast and
southeast. This pattern is extremely similar to that previously
reported for mtDNA haplogroup V."

All these data, confirms that your theory about Berbers abandoning their females and taking roman ones is nonsense.

posted 19 April 2005 01:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I never claimed that Berber mtDNA is mainly of recent European origin. What I claimed was that the mtDNA of coastal NW African Berber speakers was of recent European origin and that this makes them genetic outliers. Haplogroup H, which is the primary mtDNA lineage among coastal NW African Berber speakers is of recent (Holocene) Western European origin, not indigenous African. Here is what **YOUR** source states:

http://www.ifr26.nantes.inserm.fr/img/North_Africa.pdf

"This analysis.... suggests, in general, a significantly more extensive direct matching with European than with Near Eastern/Arabian mtDNA haplotypes."

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 17 April 2005).]

---

It does not mean that Berber mtdna is of RECENT european admixture, it just says that the mtdna of Berbers is closer to that of europeans.

posted 19 April 2005 01:49 PM            

quote:

---

E3b2 INEXISTANT in the horn of Africa, does this exclude an east african origin for the Berbers?

---

E3b2 is a mutation on E3b. There is no question issue or debate on the fact that the Berber migrated from East Africa to NorthWest Africa and that during this time E3b acquired the additional mutation - E3b2.

quote:

---

The author meant that E3b2 is NOT arab, but this does not exclude a middle eastern origin.

---

Noooo....you are hearing what you want to hear, while chosing not to listen to what is actually being said: E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East - E3b2 arose WITHIN North Africa; Please be careful to note:

It doesn't say E3b2 is rare among "Arabs". And for good reason! E3b2 is quite common among some 'Arabs' [52% in Arab Moroccans - Semino]....in North Africa. It is in the Middle East [here meaning - West Asia] that it is rare; Arab/Jew/Persian...doesn't matter. It is rare outside of Africa, and yes it does indeed negate a 'Middle East' Asian origin for E3b2. That is EXACTLY what is being said in that quote.

From Semino 2004: "E3b2 is almost absent in Europe and the Middle East but characterizes the MAJORITY of Y-Chromosomes of populations from Northwestern Africa.”

quote:

---

No one says the contrary. I don't even understand why you using that quote.

---

quote:

---

I never said Afro-asiatic languages did not originate in east africa

---

Well, that's good.

quote:

---

but this does NOT mean that The Berber language came from east-africa, it's like saying that Arabic was brought to northern africa by ethipoians.

---

Bad analogy as any linguist would explain to you:

* Unlike Berber, Arabic actually exists as a native West Asian language...which helps greatly if you want to theorise that Arabic originates there.

* Arabic is a part of the semitic language sub family, that exists exists in both West Asia and Africa.

* Arabic spread throughout Africa by a population documented via history and archeology and affirmed via genetics to have originated largely in West Asia. Thus we have the possibility of an African or Asian origin for Arabic.

* Berber is an exclusively African language existing ONLY IN AFRICA. There is no proof or evidence of Berber language existing natively anywhere else, be it West Asia, or Western Japan. And that, along with detailed glottological evidence for Berber's age and relationship to other Afrasan languages is precisely why linguists such as Ehret conclude that Berber has an East African origin.

quote:

---

an east african origin of the Berbers is a very seductive theory

---

There's nothing 'seductive' about it. Indeed it is extremely frustrating to many wouldn't you say?

The truth is - it is a logical conclusion, which much like Out of Africa irritates those who prefer to believe in some other, non African, resolution, primarily for reasons of ethnocentrism and false race-pride.

quote:

---

Please do not quote Keita.

---

Dr. Shomarka Keita is a bioanthropologist and scholar of the HIGHEST ORDER and level of respect. Keita is published and peer reviewed in the most renowned scholarly journals.

Keita is even sighted as an authority on bioanthropology in North Africa by Eurocentrists in order to bolster their credibility.

Some of the worlds most renowned scholars [Underhill, Ehret] have sought him out to partner and provide cross disciplinary basis for their work.

Shomarka Keita is naturally feared and hated ONLY by intellectually limited and socially defective white supremacist non scholars like Dienekes and Race-"Fantasist" Evil Euro and stormfront.

I know that you are not in that catagory Barbarian Berber, however those are the folks who are devoid of credibility and integrity and who no serious scholar or student should take seriously, or use for anything other than a laugh, the way we do here with Euro.

Newman: The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic languages

quote:

---

just a theory.

---

quote:

---

I can quote an infinity of contradicting theories

---

Certainly it is fair to say that no refutation of Spenser Wells, Nebel, Ehret et. al has been offered in this thread.

Indeed no one has even tried to refute them.

[when Erroneous is cornered, he invariably opts out via picture spamming, ethnic attacks, and other classic forms of corny sore loser posturing. he's toast, so we can forget about him....it's up to you BB. ]

posted 19 April 2005 02:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

It does not mean that Berber mtdna is of RECENT european admixture, it just says that the mtdna of Berbers is closer to that of europeans.

---

posted 19 April 2005 02:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
I hope you realize that mtdna of Berbers varies from region to region. Eurasian derived mtdna are mainly found in the coastal North African regions.

---

look at the table above (and the picture!) Mozabites have only 13% L.

another pic:

posted 19 April 2005 02:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[B] look at the table above (and the picture!) Mozabites have only 13% L.

---

And so?

The Tauregs exhibit a substantially higher presence of the L haplotype.

When did the expansion of L group take place in Northwest Africa, and that of the U and H group? Give me the construction, if you will.

posted 19 April 2005 02:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Dr. Shomarka Keita is a PH.D from Oxford and MD from Howard of the HIGHEST ORDER and level of esteem. He is one of the most highly respected bioanthropologists in the world.

Keita is published and peer reviewed in the most esteemed scholarly journals.

Keita is even sighted as an authority on bioanthropology in North Africa by Eurocentrists in order to [b]bolster their credibility.

Some of the worlds most reknowned scholars [Underhill, Ehret] have sought him out to partner and provide cross disciplinary basis for their work.

Shomarka Keita is naturally feared and hated ONLY by intellectually limited and socially defective white supremacist non scholars like Dienekes and Race-"Fantasist" Evil Euro and stormfront.

I know that you are not in that catagory Barbarian Berber, however those are the folks who are devoid of credibility and integrity and who no serious scholar or student should take seriously, or use for anything other than a laugh, the way we do here with Euro.

Newman: The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic languages

[QUOTE]just a theory.

---

quote:

---

I can quote an infinity of contradicting theories

---

Certainly it is fair to say that no refutation of Spenser Wells, Nebel, Ehret et. al has been offered in this thread.

Indeed no one has even tried to refute them.

[when Erroneous is cornered, he invariably opts out via picture spamming, ethnic attacks, and other classic forms of corny sore loser posturing. he's toast, so we can forget about him....it's up to you BB. ]

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 April 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

-"Dr. Shomarka Keita has a Ph.D. from Oxford and an M.D. from Howard University. His speciality is bio-anthropology. He lectures on the controversial subject of race and biology. Dr. Keita is a research associate at the Field Museum in Chicago and a medical officer for the District of Columbia. His lectures address the Afrocentric theories of race versus the Greek and Middle Eastern cultural views" http://www.people.vcu.edu/~acreight/304/AFAM%20Spring%20Lectures.htm

I'm not saying his work is to be thrown, But his afro-centrist views. I honestly prefer neutral views.

quote:

---

Noooo....you are hearing what you want to hear, while chosing not to listen to what is actually being said: E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East - E3b2 arose WITHIN North Africa; Please be careful to note:

It doesn't say E3b2 is rare among "Arabs". And for good reason! E3b2 is quite common among some 'Arabs' [52% in Arab Moroccans - Semino]....in North Africa. It is in the Middle East [here meaning - West Asia] that it is rare; Arab/Jew/Persian...doesn't matter. It is rare outside of Africa, and yes it does indeed negate a 'Middle East' Asian origin for E3b2. That is EXACTLY what is being said in that quote.

---

-I'm not the only fool then, arredy et al. uses this quote and ends up saying that J is also not arab.

-I will give you a good analogy:

*E3b2 is found in high frequencies among the Berbers, if E3b2 is found among Malis, it would be concluded that there was recent berber admixture.

*E3b2 is not found in high frequencies among the arabs, therefore E3b2 is not of recent Arab origin as most people would think (people beleive that north africans are 100% Arabs by blood and they might think that E3b2 is Arab, that's why the author precised it).

-If really the author meant that E3b2 isn't of ancient(neolithic) middle eastener origin he wouldn't have said "arabs are an unlikely origin of e3b2".

Two possible theories for e3b2:

Firs one:
-East africans spreading afrasian and e3b through the horn of africa some 12 ky ago.
-neolithic migrations from the middle east start around 10ky ago towards europe and towards northern africa (peopling egypt from north to south and replacing the Ibero-maurusian.) these middle eastern migrator spread with them the unmutated E3b.
-E3b in europe mutates into m78.
-e3b in north africa mutates into m81.

second theory:
-East africans migrate directly to egypt (from south to north) and then to Berberia.

posted 19 April 2005 02:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
-I'm not the only fool then, arredy et al. uses this quote and ends up saying that J is also not arab.

-I will give you a good analogy:

*E3b2 is found in high frequencies among the Berbers, if E3b2 is found among Malis, it would be concluded that there was recent berber admixture.

---

It is found in the Touaregs of the Sahara, in the Mali-Niger region.

quote:

---

Barbarian Berber:
*E3b2 is not found in high frequencies among the arabs, therefore E3b2 is not of recent Arab origin as most people would think (people beleive that north africans are 100% Arabs by blood and they might think that E3b2 is Arab, that's why the author precised it).

-If really the author meant that E3b2 isn't of ancient(neolithic) middle eastener origin he wouldn't have said "arabs are an unlikely origin of e3b2".

Two possible theories for e3b2:

Firs one:
-East africans spreading afrasian and e3b through the horn of africa some 12 ky ago.
-neolithic migrations from the middle east start around 10ky ago towards europe and towards northern africa (peopling egypt from north to south and replacing the Ibero-maurusian.) these middle eastern migrator spread with them the unmutated E3b.
-E3b in europe mutates into m78.
-e3b in north africa mutates into m81.

---

You keep forgetting that the E3b1 found its way to Eurasia; do you have any evidence that E-M81 diverged from this haplotype?

And again, how do you suppose the E3b variant got to west Asia, via the horn of Africa, without going first through the Levantine corridor?

quote:

---

Barbarian Berber
second theory:
-East africans migrate directly to egypt (from south to north) and then to Berberia.

These two possibilities are both realist in terms of genetics, but the second is contradicted by anthropology. therefore I believe in the first one.

---

If you can answer the questions followed up on the first senario you presented, we can procede with further analysis.

posted 19 April 2005 02:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
And so?

The Tauregs exhibit a substantially higher presence of the L haplotype.

When did the expansion of L group take place in Northwest Africa, and that of the U and H group? Give me the construction, if you will.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 19 April 2005).]

---

-According to Rasol and thought "tuaregs are not true Brbers" because they have only 10% E3b, But I won't say that ) . My point was not to speak about tuareg, my point was to prove to thought that saharan Berbers have the same genetic make up as the coastal ones, therefore his theory about Berbers taking european females during antiquity is wrong.

-Now, I answer your second question:
except L3e wich is of european origin (Rando et al.) and who is found only among the coastal berbers , all the other L are mainly of recent admixture(slave trade-arabs have higher frequencies), there's only one L3 (actually it represents 50% L3 found in north africa) who's very old (transition 16041-see fadhlaoui et al) and is a confirmation of what we know about the paintings in the sahara. it is found only among saharans and in low frequencies, needless to say that it is of west african origin (same refernce) and not of east african origin. there are no east african mtdna in north africa as thought tries to say.

posted 19 April 2005 03:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
I'm not the only fool then, arredy et al. uses this quote and ends up saying that J is also not arab.

---

* Arredi, Semino, Wells and Nebal are in agreement with regard to E3b2 being the Berber dominent and is of African origin.

* Arredi Semino, Wells and Nebal concur that J is a minority haplotype.

* However whereas Semino and Nebal provide substantial proof that suggest that the majority of Eu10 [J] chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era , Barbara Arredi suggests the possibility that, these people COULD have carried E3b AND J lineages,

Noting that she is speculating on a possibility, we can say that it is unlikely that the original Berber population was substantially "J" [as much of it is still not] and per Nebal and Semino. And that this is also likely of little relevance as per Wells:
No more than 20 percent of the men we sampled had Y Chromosomes that originated in the Middle East. [J] Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern."
- Spenser Wells/Rick Gore National Geographic October 2004.

By and large I concur with Wells, Nebal, Semino, Keita, Ehret AND Arredi.

I differ with Arredi only over a point of her idle speculation, which is directly in conflict with, and decidely does not engage the evidence provided by the other scholars, including those she herself cites.

posted 19 April 2005 03:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
You keep forgetting that the E3b1 found its way to Eurasia; do you have any evidence that E-M81 diverged from this haplotype?

---

quote:

---

And again, how do you suppose the E3b variant got to west Asia, via the horn of Africa, without going first through the Levantine corridor?

---

posted 19 April 2005 03:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOE]Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
I'm not the only fool then, arredy et al. uses this quote and ends up saying that J is also not arab.[/QUOE]
You're no fool and neither is Arredi, but you're mixing two distinct issues.

* Arredi, Semino, Wells and Nebal are in agreement with regard to [b]E3b2 being the Berber dominent and is of African origin.

* Arredi Semino, Wells and Nebal concur that J is a minority haplotype.

* However whereas Semino and Nebal provide substantial proof that suggest that the majority of Eu10 [J] chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era , Barbara Arredi suggests the possibility that, these people COULD have carried E3b AND J lineages,

Noting that she speculating on a possibility, we can say that it is unlikely that the original Berber population was substantially "J" [as much of it is still not] and per Nebal and Semino. And that this is also likely of little relevance as per Wells:
No more than 20 percent of the men we sampled had Y Chromosomes that originated in the Middle East. [J] Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern."
- Spenser Wells/Rick Gore National Geographic October 2004.

By and large I concur with Wells, Nebal, Semino, Keita, Ehret AND Arredi.

I differ with Arredi only over a point of her idle speculation, which is directly in conflict with, and decidely does not engage the evidence provided by the other scholars, including those she herself cites.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 April 2005).][/B]

---

-you are still arguing about J*? I thought we have agreed on that point? are trying to convince someone else?
-there is no genetical proof that E3b2 did originate from east africa, and no genecists says it's proven. they say is that e3b originated in east africa not e3b2, e3b2 is not even found in east africa:

posted 19 April 2005 03:27 PM            

quote:

---

*E3b2 is found in high frequencies among the Berbers, if E3b2 is found among Malis, it would be concluded that there was recent berber admixture.

---

quote:

---

*E3b2 is not found in high frequencies among the arabs

---

quote:

---

therefore E3b2 is not of recent Arab origin as most people would think

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quote:

---

people beleive that north africans are 100% Arabs by blood

---

quote:

---

If really the author meant that E3b2 isn't of ancient(neolithic) middle eastener origin

---

quote:

---

he wouldn't have said "arabs are an unlikely origin of e3b2".

---

Step 1:

* E3b2 is rare in the middle east.

Step 2:

* Arabs are from the middle east.

Step 3:

Arabs...being from the middle east, are an unlikely source of E3b2.

conclusion: E3b2 originated IN AFRICA, and not the middle East.

I think you are so obsessed with the Arabs that you are blinded to what is in fact a very straightforward and clear statement made by the author.

posted 19 April 2005 03:43 PM            

quote:

---

-there is no genetical proof that E3b2 did originate from east africa, and no genecists says it's proven.

---

Straw argument as no one said E3b2 originated in East Africa.

E3b originates in East Africa the E3b2 mutation arose WITHIN NORTH AFRICA {per Arredi}.

You specifically suggested that E3b2 originates in the middle east: E3b2 is NOT arab, but this does not exclude a middle eastern origin

It is your claim of mid eastern E3b2 that is in conflict with Arredi, Semino and Nebel.

This is what we are debating.

Unless your straw argument is meant to be a gracious way of withdrawing this claim and bowing out?

So you force me to ask just to pin you down on the point:

posted 19 April 2005 04:28 PM            

quote:

---

Barbarian Berber:
I didn't say it splitted from an eurasian e3b, i said it splitted form an unmutated E3b (or m35 if you prefer).

---

Well, of course, it had to have split from the “unmutated E3b” at some point; this is generally known.

quote:

---

Barbarian Berber:
and there is no proof of what i'm saying, I recall that this is a theory that has been proposed (together with a direct east african origin) by genecists (bosh et al and arredi et al).

---

This is why we deal with solid and corroborated material, rather than mere assumptions. There is solid corroboration for E3b origination in East Africa. Where is the corroboration for an “unmutated E3b” coming from west Asia back to Africa?

As for the map, it pleasant look at it, but I was looking forward to an explanation on how E3b got to west Asia from the Horn of Africa, without going through that Levantine corridor. I hope you understand.

Even if, like you said, the "unmutated" E3b from west Asia found its way back to north Africa, since it is "unmutated", it doesn't help you in your designation of its origin in west Asia.

posted 19 April 2005 06:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

The majority of J-haplogroup are of J* (and J* is of arab origin), Therefore it's logic that the majority of J is of arab origin, isn't it? J2 and F who are also present in North africa and europe (same frequencies) are NOT of arab origin (makes up about).

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Thought Writes:

Please provide a source proving that J2 is present at the same frequency of J* in North West Africa (the region of north Africa we are discussing).

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

I never said Afro-asiatic languages did not originate in east africa, but this does NOT mean that The Berber language came from east-africa, it's like saying that Arabic was brought to northern africa by ethipoians.

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Thought Writes:

No, but it does mean that Afro-Asiatic came from Sub-Saharan East Africa within the last 10,000 years, after which Berber branched off from proto-Afro-Asiatic or possibly Chadic. This correlates with the young TMRCA of E3b2 from Sub-Saharan E3b.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

The Capsian had a very close phenotype to that of Middle easteners.

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Thought writes:

Peer-reviewed study please?

posted 19 April 2005 06:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

S.plaza et Al

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 19 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Your claim was that these groups had the same genetic frequencies. This is not the case.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Mozabite-Berbers (24%H, 8%V, 40%U) live in the sahara:

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 19 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Yet they are still NW African Berber speakers. Let's not split hairs.

quote:

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Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Lol! Do you think they bought their women from europe?

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 19 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 19 April 2005 06:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
I have the "saami and Berbers" article ..... it dates back the commun origin (on the maternal side) of Berbers and europeans to the LGM.

"Can we provide a
reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection
of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1
and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency
peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations,
including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence
ages of ~11 ky (Achilli et al. 2004). Furthermore,
their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported
for haplogroup V"

---

Thought Writes:

In Africa (the area we are discussing) the Holocene began circa ~14 KY with the onset of the "Wild Nile" phase. The term Holocene literally means recent period. The point is these mtDNA lineages found in NW African Berber speakers are foreign to Africa and have little to do with the trajectory of E3b2 and the Berber language which are indigenous to Africa. Black African E3b2 carrying males mixed with Western European women producing the modern Berber speakers of NW Africa. Saharan Berber speakers have substantial frequencies of **INDIGENOUS** African lineages like L1, L2, L3 and M1.

TMRCAs:

E3b 25.6 KY Sub-Saharan East Africa
E3b2 5.6 KY Western Desert NE Africa

posted 19 April 2005 07:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Note that this Iberian expansion happened BEFORE the coming of E3b.

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Thought Writes:

Possibly, but based up on your theory the presence of these Western European lineages would have predated the coming of Berber languages to NW Africa. In fact without the Berber languages there would be no Berbers. Based upon your theory they were simply Mesolithic Europeans living in NW Africa. Arredi et al. claim that population density was low in NW Africa. They were not food producers. Under your model it is possible that Western European Mesolithic people lived in NW Africa at the time. Genetically and lingustically the males from this group were replaced by populations from NE Africa.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

...no L haplogroup from east africa, the ones that are present are of sahel extraction

---

Thought Writes:

Actually no, L3 has been present in Tunisia since 10,500 years ago.

Thought Posts:

Mitochondrial DNA Heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers

Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.
2004

"a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10,500 years ago in North Africa..."

posted 19 April 2005 07:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

look at the table above (and the picture!) Mozabites have only 13% L.

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Thought Writes:

posted 19 April 2005 07:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Two possible theories for e3b2:

First one:

-East africans spreading afrasian and e3b through the horn of africa some 12 ky ago.

---

Thought Writes:

This is not a theory used in modern anthropology. In fact this is the exact OPPOSITE of the conclusion Luis et al came to in the study YOU quoted.

Thought Posts:

Levant versus the Horn
Luis et al.
2004

"It is reasonable to believe that the Levantine corridor may have played an important role in the dispersal from Africa reflcted by these chromosomes. The lack of E3b*-M35, a common East African haplogroup, in Oman, and the asymmetrical presence of the two Omani M35 derivatives (E3b3-M123 has greater frequency than E3b1-M78), as well as the differential distribution of M173 and 12f2 lineages in the integrated collection, reinforce the idea that the migratory movements between Eurasia and Africa involving these chromosomes occurred mainly acros the levantine corridor and that genetic flow through the Horn of Africa during these demic episodes was very limited."

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

-neolithic migrations from the middle east start around 10ky ago towards europe and towards northern africa (peopling egypt from north to south and replacing the Ibero-maurusian.) these middle eastern migrator spread with them the unmutated E3b.

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Thought writes:

Not only is this NOT what Arredi claims, but there is no archaeological evidence for demic diffusion from SW Asia to NE Africa during this time frame. Sources please?

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

-E3b in europe mutates into m78.

---

Thought Writes:

E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia. It was E3b1 Delta that spread to Eurasia.

Thought Posts:

Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population
Sanchez et al.

"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1 (E-M78) in Somali males is the highest observed in **ANY** populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup."

[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

-e3b in north africa mutates into m81.

---

Thought Writes:

Yes, with a TMRCA of 5.6 KY it happened during the late Pre-Dynastic period.

posted 19 April 2005 07:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

-According to Rasol and thought "tuaregs are not true Brbers" because they have only 10% E3b, But I won't say that ) .

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Thought Writes:

Why are you resorting to telling lies. I never said any such thing. In addition you have presented no evidence as to what the Y-Chromosome frequencies of Tuaregs are.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

My point was not to speak about tuareg, my point was to prove to thought that saharan Berbers have the same genetic make up as the coastal ones,

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Thought writes:

This is something you can't prove, because it is not true. Saharan Berber speakers have high frequencies of **INDIGENOUS** African Y-Chromosome and mtDNA. NW African Berber speakers have high frequencies of indigenous Y-Chromosomes but they also have high frequencies of Western European mtDNA. This is what sets them apart from other Africans. The main mtDNA lineage in NW Africans is Haplogroup H. Haplogroup H post-dates human occupation in NW Africa. It is a foreign, Western European specific lineage. The Berber language and E3b2 pushed from NE Africa to NW Africa. The indigenous NE African Berber speakers - Siwa look like other East Africans. The NW African Berber speakers are the odd men out (outliers).

posted 19 April 2005 08:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

TMRCAs:

E3b 25.6 KY Sub-Saharan East Africa
E3b2 5.6 KY Western Desert NE Africa

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 19 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

Trajectory of E3b2:

1) E3b and E3b1 push up the Nile from East Africa after ~14 KY.

2) E3b and E3b1 spread into the sahara after 9,000 KY with Holocene maximum/fertile Saharan period.

3) E3b2 derives from E3b ~5.6 KY and spreads east to west.

Thought Posts:

Arredi et al.
2004

"Haplogroup E3b2...diversity...declines substantially towards the west."

"A clinal pattern of haplogroup variation like the one we observe can be expected from an east-to-west population expansion, and the finding of lower E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa...."

Luis et al.
2004

"Since E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the Sub-Saharan populations...."

"...E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco, dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in acordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ~ 2 KY ago. The **CONSIDERABLY OLDER** linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 KY ago)..."

Thought Writes:

It is of interest that E3b2 is found in Egyptian Berbers at ~3,600 B.C. and among NW African Berbers at ~ 1 A.D. is consistent with the Garamantian expansion from the Central Sahara to the Atlas mountains.

posted 19 April 2005 08:33 PM            

Actually, Mzabites originated further northward than the Sahara. They are actually indigenous to the coast line but migrated further southward after the incursion of Arabs into Magreb. The same goes with the Kel Tamelsheq[Tuareg] population that claim they come from areas like Morocco.

Karl G. Prasse. The Tuaregs: The Blue People. Copenhagen: Museum Tusculanum Press, 1995. 85 pp. Maps, photographs, bibliography. $34.00 (cloth), ISBN 8-7728-9313-3.
Reviewed by: Kristyne Loughran , independent scholar.
Published by: H-AfrArts (August, 1997)
The Tuaregs: The Blue People

The Tuareg: The Blue People is a fairly recent addition to the English language literature on the Tuareg. Written by Karl G. Prasse, professor of linguistics at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark, it was translated from the Danish by Poul Tornoe and published by the Museum Tusculanum Press. It includes black and white and color photographs by Mr. J. Olsen, Mr. Ghabdouane Mohamed, Professor Ida Nicolaisen, Mr. Morten Kuni and Ms. Ingrid Poulsen and from the Archives of the Ethnographical Collection of the Danish National Museum; it also includes maps.

The Tuareg are semi-nomadic pastoralist people of North African Berber origins, who once controlled the caravan trade routes across the Sahara. The Tuareg are nominal Muslims, they speak a Berber language called Tamashegh, and read and write the tifinagh script related to ancient Libyan ones.

The book is an introduction to Tuareg culture, social structure, and history with an "emphasis on the period after independence" (p. 7). Prasse provides a general English language summary on the political situation the Tuareg face today. The book has eight sections.

The author begins with a survey of the different Tuareg groups and the physical environments they inhabit. The Tuareg number approximately 1,200,000 to 1,300,000 people.[1] Prasse presents the Tuareg groups by country: Niger, Mali, Algeria and Libya.[2] The largest group lives in Niger and includes the Kel Azawagh (or Eastern Iwellemmedan), the Kel Ayr and the Kel Geres. The Tuareg who live in Mali include the Kel Adghagh (or Adrar), the Kel Ensar (formerly Kel Tadamakat), and the Western Iwellemmedan. The Kel Ahaggar and the Kel Ajjer live in southern Algeria, and some Kel Ajjer live in Libya near the Algerian frontier. Other groups are the Udalan Tuareg living in northern Burkina Faso and the Tuareg formerly from Niger now living in Nigeria. Prasse also mentions the neighboring groups who live in these areas.

The Tuareg have never formed a homogeneous whole. Rather, they are grouped into politically autonomous federations which are broadly divided into northern and southern groups. The Tuareg use their group names. A supreme chief (or amenokal) who has legal authority but little power today (p. 12) rules each federation.

In the book's second section, Prasse addresses Tuareg social structure. It is divided between a noble class and tributary and marginal classes, including religious leaders and smiths. The formerly servile groups are now living as tributary groups (p. 19), and the Harratin (or Izeggaghan) live in the oasis towns and are principally gardeners. The distribution of work is changing today, and members of the noble class are taking on duties formerly carried out by the tributary groups (p. 17).

The third section describes the daily life of the Tuareg. Their routines are dictated by domestic chores and by the needs of their cattle (p. 22). The Tuareg diet consists of millet porridge, milk, rice, wheat and grains. Meat is principally eaten on special occasions (p. 23). Social life includes the ahal, or courtship gatherings, and the tende , or musical gatherings. Relationships between individuals follow strict etiquette. In more recent years the traditional reserve which has always characterized Tuareg social and public behavior is starting to disappear. It is not uncommon, for example, to see young Tuareg men without a veil (pp. 26-27).

In the following section, "Tuareg Culture and Traditional Literature," Prasse discusses the richness of Tuareg literature and oral traditions. These include poetry of all genres, folktales, proverbs and riddles. Often during evening gatherings, discussions on proper wording and the correct use of language arise (p. 30). This cultural heritage is the realm of women. They teach their children the proverbs and the tifinagh alphabet, and they play the imzad (a one-stringed violin). The tifinagh alphabet is principally used to write messages and inscriptions and was never used to record epic poetry (pp. 31-32).[3] Prasse also mentions the literacy campaigns (in which he participated in 1966) in Mali and in Niger,[4] and the work carried out by missionaries, who collected folktales and lexical material.[5]

Celebrations and festivals are the subject of the fifth section. Thes stages of a Tuareg life are punctuated with small gatherings held for the immediate family. Weddings, on the other hand, are large celebrations. Tuareg women usually marry between the ages of fifteen and twenty, and men marry between their late twenties and thirty. Divorces are frequent (p. 37). The author describes a wedding ceremony from the Ayr region of Niger and notes that the bride's wealth symbolizes a bond insuring children will be cared for in case of death or divorce (p. 39). The most important annual festival is the Cure Salée (or salt cure) which takes place near InGal in Niger (p. 47). This is when families reunite, news is exchanged, and dancing and poetry recitals take place.

Tuareg economy has always been based on livestock breeding, agriculture and trade. The taxing of caravans crossing the Sahara, slavery, and raiding on neighboring groups stopped during the colonial period. Salt remains an important commodity and, along with dates, is bartered with millet and cloth bought in southern areas (p. 48). The droughts which occurred in the 1970s and 1980s have obliged many Tuareg to become sedentary. In more recent times, tourism has contributed to the economy. The uranium mines in Arlit have provided work for some members of the Tuareg community, and a gypsum mine is being exploited near Tessalit in Mali. According to the author, however, the most viable mode of life in many Tuareg areas continues to be nomadism (p. 51).

The seventh section discusses history since independence. Prasse has organized this section by country (Algeria, Mali and Niger) and explains the historical developments that led to the political problems occurring today. This subject is treated in great detail in recent French language works by Bernus, Bourgeot, Claudot Hawad, Dayak and Ramir.[6] According to Prasse, when Algeria, Mali and Niger became independent, the groups in power after independence "wished to prevent the Tuareg from becoming a dominant force in their respective countries" (p. 52). In the past thirty years, Tuareg country has been divided between many nations (Libya, Algeria, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso and Nigeria), and the Tuareg are now part of pluri-ethnic societies and are minorities within each one (Bernus 1993: pp. 163-164). The droughts of 1969, 1973, 1980 and 1985 also forced many Tuareg to emigrate to Algeria, Burkina Faso, Nigeria and Libya. Today, the large number of Tuareg in refugee camps and political reprisals have led to tension and unrest. Although there have been several attempts at peaceful negotiations between Tuareg resistance movements and the governments of Mali and Niger, the situation remains unresolved (pp. 63-67).

The last section, "Origins and Early History of the Tuareg," suggests the Tuareg and the Mauritanians are descendant of Berbers who were driven south by advancing Arabs (p. 69). Tuareg origin myths relate the Tuareg to Lemtuna, the ancestress of the Berbers who lived around Ghadames in Tripolitania (Nicolaisen 1963: p. 405). Another myth relates the Tuareg to the legendary Queen Tin Hinan who came to Abalessa in the Ahaggar region from Tafilelt in Morocco (p. 69). According to Prasse, these legends suggest the Tuareg of southern Algeria came from Libya and Morocco, and the Kel Ayr and Kel Geres have Libyan origins. Tuareg from Mali claim to have come from Morocco or Mauritania (p. 71). Tuareg society has always been characterized by rivalry between groups, and in time different groups have enjoyed supremacy over others (p. 72). When the French arrived in the Hoggar they were met with great resistance and peace was reached in 1917. It lasted until independence in 1960. The French let the Tuareg continue their nomadic lifestyles; however, they saw to it that no concentration of power emerged (p. 80). Although the French did think of setting up an independent Tuareg state, the idea never materialized (p. 80).

The Tuaregs: The Blue People was originally written in Danish and directed at a Scandinavian audience. This is because Scandinavian countries have ongoing aid projects in Mali and in Niger in Tuareg areas, and the author's purpose is to convey information on the situation in both countries. This translation is intended as a brief and easily accessible English introduction to the subject (p. 7).

While the author does list all of his major sources for history and social organization in the bibliography, these are not cited in the text. Although the book is very general in nature, and most of the information contained in it is easily accessible, it would have been particularly appropriate to reference sources when discussing recent political issues, as there are very opposing opinions on the subject.[7]

The book includes twenty-five black and white and sixteen color photographs and two maps which add nicely to the general body of the text. Some are recent field photographs taken by Ingrid Poulsen in 1991 and 1993, and others are from archives. It is unfortunate that these photographs are never mentioned in the book. It would have been helpful if the captions had included dates and more precise information, particularly the early photographs which might be used as relevant and historical data.[8] Finally , some areas mentioned in the text (such as Tidikelt, p. 20) are not shown in the maps, which would be useful to those not familiar with these areas.

These remarks are not meant to take away from the general merit of the volume. The Tuaregs: The Blue People is a well-organized and thoughtful book. It outlines the major aspects of Tuareg culture and life. While most of this information has already appeared in different publications and in other languages, the author should be complimented for producing a concise English volume on the subject. The text will prove useful to scholars in the humanities and the social sciences as a general introductory text.

Notes:

[1].As with many nomadic peoples, it is extremely difficult to give exact statistics for the Tuareg groups. See Claudot-Hawad and Hawad, 1996, p. 11 for comments on this subject.

[2].Most Tuareg refer to their group or federation name. To speak about Tuareg from Mali or Niger, for example, is historically out of character and began after independence. See Claudot Hawad, 1993, pp. 111-112.

[3].Mahmoudan Hawad, a Tuareg author and poet, is developing and using a cursive form of tifinagh inscriptions.

[4].See Claudot Hawad (ed.), 1991 for articles by M.A. Ag Ataher Insar (pp. 91-97), M. Gast (pp. 99-111), E. Ag Foni (pp. 113-121) on the literacy campaigns.

[5].Prasse notes that the most famous missionary was Charles de Foucauld, who published a dictionary of the Ahaggar form of Tamashegh, an important contribution to the analysis of the Tuareg language (p. 36).

[6].For further reading and diverse opinions on this subject see Edmond Bernus, "Les Touareg," pp. 162-171 in Vallées du Niger, Paris: Éditions de la Réunion des Musées Nationaux, 1993; Andre Bourgeot, Les Sociétés Touarègues, Nomadisme, Identité, Résistances, Paris: Karthala, 1995; Hélène Claudot-Hawad, ed., Touregs: Exil et Résistance. Révue du Monde Musulman et de la Méiterranée No. 57, Aix en Provence: Edisud, 1991; Claudot-Hawad, Touaregs, Portrait en Fragments, Aix en Provence: Edisud, 1993; Hélène and Hawad Claudot-Hawad, Touaregs: Voix Solitaires sous l'Horizon Confisque, Ethnies-Documents No. 20-21, Hiver, 1996; Mano Dayak, Touareg: La Tragedie, Paris: Éditions Lattes, 1992; Sylvie Ramir, Les Pistes de l'Oubli: Touaregs au Niger, Paris: éditions du Felin, 1991.

[7].In the Preface, the author states he has "regular contacts with Tuaregs in Niger, with exiled Tuareg in Paris and with French scholars... .and receive[s] personal viewpoints and excerpts from the French press, especially Le Monde" (p. 8), but these are not cited in the text.

[8].For example, there are three photographs of Nicolaisen's which probably date from the 1960s. In addition, there are eight photographs by O. Olufsen which are of historical interest. O. Olufsen was a Danish geographer who organized an expedition to the Sahara in 1922-1923. He returned with a collection of objects collected in the Hoggar region of Algeria, which J. Nicolaisen published in his thesis entitled Ecology and Culture of the Pastoral Tuaregs (Copenhagen, 1963).

Library of Congress Call Number: DT346 .T7 P73 1995

Subjects:

posted 19 April 2005 08:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The formerly servile groups are now living as tributary groups (p. 19), and the Harratin (or Izeggaghan) live in the oasis towns and are principally gardeners.

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Thought Writes:

Ausar, has there been any systematic analysis of the food crops cultivated by the Harratin and the ancient Garamantes?

posted 19 April 2005 09:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Luis et al.
2004

"...E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco, dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in acordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ~ 2 KY ago. The **CONSIDERABLY OLDER** linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 KY ago)..."

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 19 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

The interesting thing about the Arredi et al study is that they claim demic diffusion of E3b and J* into (they claim that E3b went from East Africa to the Levant and back into north Africa) North Africa because:

1) North Africans carry J*.

and

2) Sheep and Goats appear in the **NEOLITHIC** archaeological record.

It is of interest that E3b2 posts dates the appearance of sheep and goats by 2,000 years. Sheep and goats appear around 7.6 KY, E3b2 has a TMRCA of 5.6 KY. In addition Hammer et al and Cruciani et al. claim that it was E3b1, not E3b that spread to the Near East and Europe. In fact if you review table 1 in Cruciani et al. you will see that E-M35* (E3b) is virtually absent in Eurasia. E3b2 did not derive from E3b1, hence E3b2 did not spread back into North Africa with the hypothesized neolithic diffusion.

Thought Posts:

Cruciani et al.
2004

"The paragroup E-M35* (E3b) has been observed at high frequencies in both eastern and southern Africa, with rare occurances in northern Africa and Europe."

Hammer et al.
2004

"However, because M35* (E3b) chromosomes are rare in Europe, we instead hypothesize that the derived lineage, E-M78 (E3b1), is the more likely haplogroup reflecting neolthic demic diffusion."

posted 20 April 2005 12:35 AM            

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Thought Writes:

In Africa (the area we are discussing) the Holocene began circa ~14 KY with the onset of the "Wild Nile" phase. The term Holocene literally means recent period. The point is these mtDNA lineages found in NW African Berber speakers are foreign to Africa and have little to do with the trajectory of E3b2 and the Berber language which are indigenous to Africa. Black African E3b2 carrying males mixed with Western European women producing the modern Berber speakers of NW Africa. Saharan Berber speakers have substantial frequencies of **INDIGENOUS** African lineages like L1, L2, L3 and M1.

TMRCAs:

E3b 25.6 KY Sub-Saharan East Africa
E3b2 5.6 KY Western Desert NE Africa

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With claims that the U6 spread in North Africa around 30,000 years ago, and the L3 spreading around 10,500 years ago, what then would have been the original mtdna that spread with the E3b2 lineage? Does this mean that the males carrying this E3b variant moved about with a very small community of women from the origin of their destination, to the coastal north African region, which if I understood correctly, was not heavily populated at some point in prehistoric times?

posted 20 April 2005 08:37 AM            

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Actually, Mzabites originated further northward than the Sahara. They are actually indigenous to the coast line but migrated further southward after the incursion of Arabs into Magreb. The same goes with the Kel Tamelsheq[Tuareg] population that claim they come from areas like Morocco.

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