posted 15 May 2005 11:55 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
[QUOTE][b]That source you cited says NOTHING about the frequecy of U6. No beef in between the bread.

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Not this study, this one in pdf:
http://www.white-history.com/portugal_files/Gonzalez2003.pdf

The newer study says that Moroccan Berbers are close to southern Spaniards but still not exactly there.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Out of interest what are your origins??

posted 09 June 2005 10:13 PM            

New evidence indicating possible bronze age connections between Iberia and NW Africa:

Thought Posts:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 Jun 7; [Epub ahead of print]

Prehistoric contacts over the Straits of Gibraltar indicated by genetic analysis of Iberian Bronze Age cattle.

C. Anderung et al.

The geographic situation of the Iberian Peninsula makes it a natural link between Europe and North Africa. However, it is a matter of debate to what extent African influences via the Straits Gibraltar have affected Iberia's prehistoric development. Because early African pastoralist communities were dedicated to cattle breeding, a possible means to detect prehistoric African-Iberian contacts might be to analyze the origin of cattle breeds on the Iberian Peninsula. Some contemporary Iberian cattle breeds show a mtDNA haplotype, T1, that is characteristic to African breeds, generally explained as being the result of the Muslim expansion of the 8th century A.D., and of modern imports. To test a possible earlier African influence, we analyzed mtDNA of Bronze Age cattle from the Portalon cave at the Atapuerca site in northern Spain. Although the majority of samples showed the haplotype T3 that dominates among European breeds of today, the T1 haplotype was found in one specimen radiocarbon dated 1800 calibrated years B.C. Accepting T1 as being of African origin, this result indicates prehistoric African-Iberian contacts and lends support to archaeological finds linking early African and Iberian cultures. We also found a wild ox haplotype in the Iberian Bronze Age sample, reflecting local hybridization or backcrossing or that aurochs were hunted by these farming cultures.

posted 10 August 2005 09:40 AM            

It is a social construct while saying he has reason to believe he is 'Spanish' due to the influence from 711-1492. Spain and MOrocco has a centuries old history and when they leave Morrocans leave the country, they go to Spain (legally or illegally). They are familiar with the language and culture.

posted 19 August 2005 11:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
I'm speaking about North Africa…. "H" is native to that region

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Thought Writes:

The bulk of the Y-Chromosome gene pool was peopled from Sub-Saharan Africa within the past 14,000 years. NO, ‘H’ is a European **SPECIFIC** maternal lineage that made its way from Western Europe to North West Africa within the last 11,000 years. NW Africa was comparatively uninhabited prior to the establishment of Carthage. They were not food producers. Population density was low. Mesolithic European colonists may have lived in the area in small numbers, but if that were the case the male lineages of this culture were replaced by Berbers from East Africa based upon the Y-chromosome evidence and the linguistic evidence. The **ORIGINAL** Berbers spread from NE Africa to NW Africa. Few NE African Berber speakers carry the Western European specific genes (H, Ub1b5, V and K) that NW Africans carry. This explains why Ne African Berber speakers LOOK African and NW African Berber speakers do not.

quote:

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Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

I'm happy you gave up your theory about berbers abondoning their females to take european ones, Whatever is the meaning of holocene it is always prehistoric times therfore not taken from any colonizers of northern africa (romans/vandal/iberians).

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Thought Writes:

If your theory is that Western Europeans migrated to NW Africa from Iberia BEFORE the establishment of Carthage your theory is actually unlikely.

In fact in the “Saami and Berber” study by Achilli et al. they state that mtDNA marker U5b1b spread **WITH** “H”, and “V” to NW Africa. According to this study the sequence divergence date of U5b1b is 8.6 KY (6,600 B.C.) in northern Europe. Hence these European specific genes could not have spread to NW Africa prior to its divergence in 6,600 B.C.

The Capsian culture pre-dates this divergence date. Human occupation in NW Africa pre-dates this divergence date.

In addition, Iberians were settled agriculturalists by 5,000 B.C., NW Africans did not begin this practice until the Cartheginian period. The archaeology of NW Africa does not support NW African colonization from Western Europe between 6600 B.C. and the Carthaginian period. Hence the most parsimonious explanation is that these genes flowed to NW Africa during the historic epoch.

Matoub Lounès is a famous Kabyle singer who was a prominent advocate of the Berber cause

"Matoub dedicated himself to Amazigh," he said, "especially in Kabylia. He sang about the language. He told the truth, like who killed certain great people. Little by little, his reputation grew. In 1980 when we had the very first big uprising in Kabylia, April 20, 1980, he was in France and he came back and he wrote a song telling what happened in April, which we call the Berber Spring. That song took him even higher. And after that, every time he recorded, he gave information, he educated people in each and every song."

posted 20 August 2005 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
In conclusion I reiterate: coastal NW African Berber speakers seem to be genetic outliers in the Berber speaking community.

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Which is ironic since in our previous discussion on the Siwa, our old friend Orionix cited the Kabyle as outlier in the mtdna landscape, begging the question...If so, how does that help you establish a non East African origin of Berber? Naturally, no answer was proferred.

Also want to make sure everyone else understands something about genetics:

23 sets of chromosomes.

The last one's shown are the sex chromosomes.

In males it is the non recombining y chromosome, passed only and always from father to sons that we are referencing.

This is why it is ideal for determining lineage, however...it also explains why it cannot directly and simply predict phenotype.

Hypothetically: Imagine a small population physically East African in appearence in NorthWest Africa....imagine that population absorbs females of Eurasian linegage, and then expands over many generations based primarily on the introduction of new Eurasian women.

This can go on for a thousand generations, and the males of this population will still carry the Y chromosome from their forefathers.

Yet, physically this population will likely eventually become indistinguishable from other Eurasians because the bulk of their DNA, those other 22 chromosomes and attendant genes reflect the fact of the predominently Eurasian source of their OVERALL genetic makeup.