posted 20 April 2005 09:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought writes:

This is something you can't prove, because it is not true. Saharan Berber speakers have high frequencies of **INDIGENOUS** African Y-Chromosome and mtDNA. NW African Berber speakers have high frequencies of indigenous Y-Chromosomes but they also have high frequencies of Western European mtDNA. This is what sets them apart from other Africans. The main mtDNA lineage in NW Africans is Haplogroup H. Haplogroup H post-dates human occupation in NW Africa. It is a foreign, Western European specific lineage. The Berber language and E3b2 pushed from NE Africa to NW Africa. The indigenous NE African Berber speakers - Siwa look like other East Africans. The NW African Berber speakers are the odd men out (outliers).

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 19 April 2005).]

---

-Africa means nothing; I'm speaking about North africa, and "H" is native to that region (first there, first served, and therefore native). Even assimilated berbers into the sub-saharan populations still keep their *native* genes : sahrawi have about 30% sub-saharan mtdna.

-I'm happy you gave up your theory about berbers abondoning their females to take european ones, Whatever is the meaning of holocene it is always prehistoric times therfore not taken from any colonizers of northern africa (romans/vandal/iberians).

-About e3b and your "true" berbers:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.tb1.html

posted 20 April 2005 10:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
Thought Writes:

E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia. It was E3b1 Delta that spread to Eurasia.

Thought Posts:

Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population
Sanchez et al.

"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1 (E-M78) in Somali males is the highest observed in **ANY** populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup."

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 19 April 2005).]

---

It's not important, you just gave me a small correction:

posted 20 April 2005 10:10 AM            

As for Lower Egypt, we need a genetic study specifically of the Siwa Berber. Smothering their data in the massively non-indigenous current population of Lower Egypt is not sound method.

posted 20 April 2005 10:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

-M35 mutated into m81 in north africa.

---

Yes. Then we all 'i think' agree on this point.

But can you see how the origion of M81 ancestral M35 in East africa and the rarity of it in Eurasia makes it, frankly rather prepostrous to suggest that m35 somehow detours into Asia, then reverses itself, spreads back to africa, then hides its tracks by disappearing in Asia?

Do you understand the relevance of this comment by Christopher Ehret?

The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.

posted 20 April 2005 10:21 AM            

-First I have to give a little picture about the saharan paintings:

"At the beginning ... two types of melanoderm men cohabitated. The first is definitely negroid... The second is also melanoderm, but his negritud is attenuated, more lengthened musculature, often even slim. This differentiation established by rupestral art was confirmed by the study of the skeletons resulting from the excavations in particular with Tin hanakaten. These characters with the fine features raised many interrogations, they appear now as possible ancestors of Peuls(fulanis) as already Henri LHOTE thought it."

"Melanoderm Negroid":

Melanderm proto-Fulani

"During the pastoral period the companies of the Sahara appear very diversified on the ethnic and cultural make up, then little by little the settlement seems to be dominated by caucasoid groups... the first Berber populations of the Sahara will emerge from this srock"

Proto-Berbers of the Sahara (not of the coast!!)

posted 20 April 2005 10:37 AM            

"Nothing makes it possible to believe in an abrupt change of Mechtoïdes in Mediterranean whereas Natoufiens of the Close East From the eighth millenium before J-C appears in North Africa a new type of Homo sapiens. These oldest remainders were found in Tunisia. It is named Capsien, of the ancient name of the town of Gafsa (Capsa) where it for the first time was identified. It is of high size (1,75 m for the men and 1,62 for the women on average for the layer of Mejdez II). II is distinguished clearly from the man of Mechta, the orbits of the eyes not being squarer, the narrower nose, the less robust framework. This human type was named protoméditérranéen. One finds human groups close to Capsiens in other areas at the same time or a little front. It are present in all the countries of the Mediterranean circumference. It is the case, for example, of the man of Combe in Europe and the natoufiens in the East."

posted 20 April 2005 10:52 AM            

quote:

---

You seem to forget, we've already shown that it is found in high frequency among some Arabs in NorthWest Africa. [Semino 2004]

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By arabs I mean "true" arabs, those of the middle east.

quote:

---

quote:therefore E3b2 is not of recent Arab origin as most people would think
NO ONE THINKS THAT.

---

All people thinks that, only few people Know about that if you did not know, I was not referring to this forum.

quote:

---

Please try to follow the train of the scholars logic carefully:

Step 1:

* E3b2 is rare in the middle east.

Step 2:

* Arabs are from the middle east.

Step 3:

Arabs...being from the middle east, are an unlikely source of E3b2.

conclusion: E3b2 originated IN AFRICA, and not the middle East.

---

I'm going to follow the same sreps as you (Which I believe that's a wrong deduction):

Step 1:

* E3b2 is none existant in east africa.

Step 2:

* East africans are from the east africa.

Step 3:

East africans...being from east africa, are an unlikely source of E3b2.

conclusion: E3b2 originated did not originate IN EAST AFRICA, but in the middle East.

That was just to prove you that your reasoning was wrong:

My reasoning:

-Arabs in north africa are predominantly E3b2.
-Most people think that Arabs from noth africa came from arabians.
-E3b2 being rare in the middle east : Arabians are not the ancestors of North african Arabs.

posted 20 April 2005 11:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[B]

Africa means nothing; I'm speaking about North Africa…. "H" is native to that region

[B]

---

Thought Writes:

The bulk of the Y-Chromosome gene pool was peopled from Sub-Saharan Africa within the past 14,000 years. NO, ‘H’ is a European **SPECIFIC** maternal lineage that made its way from Western Europe to North West Africa within the last 11,000 years. NW Africa was comparatively uninhabited prior to the establishment of Carthage. They were not food producers. Population density was low. Mesolithic European colonists may have lived in the area in small numbers, but if that were the case the male lineages of this culture were replaced by Berbers from East Africa based upon the Y-chromosome evidence and the linguistic evidence. The **ORIGINAL** Berbers spread from NE Africa to NW Africa. Few NE African Berber speakers carry the Western European specific genes (H, Ub1b5, V and K) that NW Africans carry. This explains why Ne African Berber speakers LOOK African and NW African Berber speakers do not.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[B]

I'm happy you gave up your theory about berbers abondoning their females to take european ones, Whatever is the meaning of holocene it is always prehistoric times therfore not taken from any colonizers of northern africa (romans/vandal/iberians).

[B]

---

Thought Writes:

If your theory is that Western Europeans migrated to NW Africa from Iberia BEFORE the establishment of Carthage your theory is actually unlikely.

In fact in the “Saami and Berber” study by Achilli et al. they state that mtDNA marker U5b1b spread **WITH** “H”, and “V” to NW Africa. According to this study the sequence divergence date of U5b1b is 8.6 KY (6,600 B.C.) in northern Europe. Hence these European specific genes could not have spread to NW Africa prior to its divergence in 6,600 B.C.

The Capsian culture pre-dates this divergence date. Human occupation in NW Africa pre-dates this divergence date.

posted 20 April 2005 11:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
It's not important, you just gave me a small correction:

-M78 mutated in europe into m78 alpha.
-M35 mutated into m81 in north africa.

---

Thought Writes:

Major correction, not a small correction. M81 diverged from the ancestral, Sub-Saharan M35 during the late bronze age.

posted 20 April 2005 11:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
My answer about the Capsian:

-First I have to give a little picture about the saharan paintings:

"At the beginning ... two types of melanoderm men cohabitated. The first is definitely negroid... The second is also melanoderm, but his negritud is attenuated, more lengthened musculature, often even slim. This differentiation established by rupestral art was confirmed by the study of the skeletons resulting from the excavations in particular with Tin hanakaten. These characters with the fine features raised many interrogations, they appear now as possible ancestors of Peuls(fulanis) as already Henri LHOTE thought it."

"Melanoderm Negroid":

Melanderm proto-Fulani

"During the pastoral period the companies of the Sahara appear very diversified on the ethnic and cultural make up, then little by little the settlement seems to be dominated by caucasoid groups... the first Berber populations of the Sahara will emerge from this srock"

Proto-Berbers of the Sahara (not of the coast!!)

---

Thought Writes:

Rock art, which is **HIGHLY** subjective, does not substitute for sound biological anthropology.

posted 20 April 2005 11:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
"Nothing makes it possible to believe in an abrupt change of Mechtoïdes in Mediterranean whereas Natoufiens of the Close East whose marked anthropological characters before in Capsiens are same human group that them and in their civilization one can find certain cultural features which are connected in Capsien." Laboratoire d’anthropologie et de préhistoire des pays de la Méditerranée occidentale

"Nothing makes it possible to believe in an abrupt change of Mechtoïdes in Mediterranean whereas Natoufiens of the Close East From the eighth millenium before J-C appears in North Africa a new type of Homo sapiens. These oldest remainders were found in Tunisia. It is named Capsien, of the ancient name of the town of Gafsa (Capsa) where it for the first time was identified. It is of high size (1,75 m for the men and 1,62 for the women on average for the layer of Mejdez II). II is distinguished clearly from the man of Mechta, the orbits of the eyes not being squarer, the narrower nose, the less robust framework. This human type was named protoméditérranéen. One finds human groups close to Capsiens in other areas at the same time or a little front. It are present in all the countries of the Mediterranean circumference. It is the case, for example, of the man of Combe in Europe and the natoufiens in the East."

For these reasons, I can't beliebe in an east african origin of the berbers.

---

Thought Posts:

J.L. Angel
Journal of Human Evol.
1 (1972)

posted 20 April 2005 11:24 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

If your theory is that Western Europeans migrated to NW Africa from Iberia BEFORE the establishment of Carthage your theory is actually unlikely.

In fact in the “Saami and Berber” study by Achilli et al. they state that mtDNA marker U5b1b spread **WITH** “H”, and “V” to NW Africa. According to this study the sequence divergence date of U5b1b is 8.6 KY (6,600 B.C.) in northern Europe. Hence these European specific genes could not have spread to NW Africa prior to its divergence in 6,600 B.C.

The Capsian culture pre-dates this divergence date. Human occupation in NW Africa pre-dates this divergence date.

In addition, Iberians were settled agriculturalists by 5,000 B.C., NW Africans did not begin this practice until the Cartheginian period. The archaeology of NW Africa does not support NW African colonization from Western Europe between 6600 B.C. and the Carthaginian period. Hence the most parsimonious explanation is that these genes flowed to NW Africa during the historic epoch.

---

U5b1b is of recent origin, that's correct but it is found in very low quantities. But H and V were spread just after the LGM equally in europe and northern africa, 20 to 10 ky ago.

I have two studies that cannot be accessed (saami and berbers+ another), if you want them, give me your me mail.

posted 20 April 2005 11:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

I'm going to follow the same sreps as you (Which I believe that's a wrong deduction):

Step 1:

* E3b2 is none existant in east africa.

Step 2:

* East africans are from the east africa.

Step 3:

East africans...being from east africa, are an unlikely source of E3b2.

conclusion: E3b2 originated did not originate IN EAST AFRICA, but in the middle East.

That was just to prove you that your reasoning was wrong:

My reasoning:

-Arabs in north africa are predominantly E3b2.
-Most people think that Arabs from noth africa came from arabians.
-E3b2 being rare in the middle east : Arabians are not the ancestors of North african Arabs.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 20 April 2005 11:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[ I'm going to follow the same sreps as you (Which I believe that's a wrong deduction):

---

Then Wells and Semino and Nebal are ALL wrong because the deducation that M81 arose within North Africa from ancestral East African M35 is THEIR DEDUCTION..... but, let's try yours and see where we end up....

Step 1: * E3b2 is none existant in east africa. Wrong, it is found in Egypt. Egypt is in NorthEast Africa. Bad start.

Step 2: * East africans are from the east africa. This is a redundancy. In logic: redundant steps should be eliminated.

Step 3: *East africans...being from east africa, are an unlikely source of E3b2. This depends on step 1, which is false, and so is not a valid deduction.

conclusion: E3b2 originated did not originate IN EAST AFRICA , but in the middle East. And now your logic is completely broken as the middle east is not mentioned in any of the previous steps, nor are we discussing a haplotype that is present in the middle east and so the Middle East cannot logically factor in your conclusion.

Frnakly, you've merely shown us why your conclusion is illogical, and why geneticists do not support it.

BB...here is a proper example of logical deduction, which is consistent with the deductions actually made by molecular geneticists:

quote:

---

Thought Writes:
TMRCAs:

E3b 25.6 KY Sub-Saharan East Africa
E3b2 5.6 KY Western Desert NE Africa

Thought Writes:

Trajectory of E3b2:

1) E3b and E3b1 push up the Nile from East Africa after ~14 KY.

2) E3b and E3b1 spread into the sahara after 9,000 KY with Holocene maximum/fertile Saharan period.

3) E3b2 derives from E3b ~5.6 KY and spreads east to west.

---

If you disagree, can you show us how the above deducation is flawed, or inconsistent with the known genetic data in any way?

posted 20 April 2005 11:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

U5b1b is of recent origin, that's correct but it is found in very low quantities. But H and V were spread just after the LGM equally in europe and northern africa, 20 to 10 ky ago.

---

Thought Posts:

Saami and Berbers- An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Achilli et al.
2005

“It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from Saami, Yakut, Berbers and Fulbe, was 1.7 +/- substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 (6,600 B.C.) 2.4 +/- KY.”

“Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~ 15 KY ago, the identification of U5b1b now **EQUIVOCALLY** links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3 and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.”

Thought Writes:

If U5b1b has a TMRCA of 6,600 B.C. AND this lineage spread WITH H1, H3 and V to North West Africa, the these genes did NOT spread to NW Africa before 6,600 B.C.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Your theory about carthage is complete none sense, you obvioulsy have no knowledge about the North africa Kingdoms and history, you are just assuming, no genetic data, nothing, the only one that you present is that of "saami and berbers" without even understanding the whole article which speaks about a commoun origin of the north african and european mtdna dating to the LGM.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 20 April 2005 11:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Rock art, which is **HIGHLY** subjective, does not substitute for sound biological anthropology.

---

posted 20 April 2005 12:13 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:
E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia. It was

E3b1 Delta that spread to Eurasia.

Thought Posts:

Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population

Sanchez et al.
"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1 (E-M78) in Somali males is the highest observed in **ANY** populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup."

---

Barbarian Berber's reaction:

quote:

---

It's not important, you just gave me a small correction:

-M78 mutated in europe into m78 alpha.
-M35 mutated into m81 in north africa.

---

For anyone who recognized the implication of what you were saying earlier, that comment made by Thought makes a big difference between the logic of the two!

posted 20 April 2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Then Wells and Semino and Nebal are ALL wrong because the deducation that M81 arose within North Africa from ancestral East African M35 is THEIR DEDUCTION..... but, let's try yours and see where we end up....

---

That's What i have been saying since the beginning:

-there was an m35 in north africa that mutated into m81.
-m35 originated in east africa.
-the above sentence DOES NOT NECESSARLY mean that m35 went from east africa to north africa.(you have to understand this)

Therefore there are two theories:

*first 1*-A direct migration from east africa to north africa.

*second 2* m35 migrate to the middle east, WITHOUT MUTATING it migrate AGAIN to north africa. and THEN m35 mutates into m81.

Both senarios are possible GENITCALLY, I don't understand how you can't accept that, and NONE of the senarios has been proven GENITACLLY.

BUT, Anthropological data correlates with supposition NUMBER 2: The capsian derived from the natufian (middle east).

Untill now, there is only me who proved my point with anthropological data, you guys did not.

posted 20 April 2005 03:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Posts:

J.L. Angel
Journal of Human Evol.
1 (1972)

"...one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters..."

---

Either you do not accept what anthropology says about the capsian deriving from the natufian and you do not write what you have posted above.

OR you accept the neolithic-middle eastener origin of north africans, and then, you can post what you have just posted.

posted 20 April 2005 04:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Thought Posts:

Saami and Berbers- An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Achilli et al.
2005

“It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from Saami, Yakut, Berbers and Fulbe, was 1.7 +/- substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 (6,600 B.C.) 2.4 +/- KY.�

“Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~ 15 KY ago, the identification of U5b1b now **EQUIVOCALLY** links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3 and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.�

Thought Writes:

If U5b1b has a TMRCA of 6,600 B.C. AND this lineage spread WITH H1, H3 and V to North West Africa, the these genes did NOT spread to NW Africa before 6,600 B.C.

---

U5b1b : 6.600 B.C, the capsian didn't even reach present day morocco. and that was the LATEST Iberian mtdna to enter into north africa. Carthage was built 800 B.C... a difference of 6000 years.

All other mtdna were OLDER, example: 12.8 +- 2.4 kya for H1, and 10.3 +- 1.4 kya for H3. The OLDEST ONES are in HIGHER FREQUENCIES, U5b1b is found at a frequency of 2% among the Berbers.

Do I have to remind you that sahrawi have 70% of those mtdna? do I have to remind you that Carthage was found 800 BC? Do I have to remind that Cathaginians came from the middle east? (therefore, no mtdna affinity with europeans)..etc.

In fact, Iberia and north Africa were One region with the same people, the capsian came and mixed with the local population.

posted 20 April 2005 04:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

*second 2* m35 migrate to the middle east, WITHOUT MUTATING it migrate AGAIN to north africa. and THEN m35 mutates into m81.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

It was E3b1, NOT E3b that spread from Africa to Eurasia. E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia. E3b1 is affiliated with demic diffusion of the Middle Eastern neolithic not E3b. How could E3b diffuse back to Africa from the Middle East if it was not present in the Middle East? Your "model" is simply silly. You would have E3b, which is absent in the Middle East, but found in frequencies of greater than 35% in South Africa spread back into Africa from the Middle East. Illogical!

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

The capsian derived from the natufian (middle east).

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

This is nonsense. How could the Capsian who were mesolithic foragers derive from the Natufians who were agriculturalists and herders when they share NO archaeological characteristics?

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Untill now, there is only me who proved my point with anthropological data, you guys did not.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

You have presented NO peer-reviewed anthropological studies linking the Mesolithic Capsian culture to the Neolithic Natufians.

The ONLY recent peer-reveiwed study on the Capsians I am aware of came to totally different conclusions, and that is the study by Joel D. Irish. I will return to this subject latter. A peer-reviewed study on Afalou crania (~10,500 KY ago) links these NW Africans with Sub-Saharan populations. This is interesting in light of the fact that the Tunisian specific L3 lineages I mentioned earlier have a TMRCA that is within this time range.

By the way, do you understand the importance of peer-review?

posted 20 April 2005 04:47 PM            

quote:

---

Therefore there are two theories:
*first 1*-A direct migration from east africa to north africa.

---

This is a valid concept advocated by geneticists: E3b-M35 spreads from East Africa to North Africa - PA Underhill

quote:

---

*second 2* m35 migrate to the middle east, WITHOUT MUTATING it migrate AGAIN to north africa.

---

For this reason, it is NOT ADVOCATED by geneticists.

quote:

---

Both theories are possible, I don't understand how you can't accept that

---

What I accept is the least of your worries.

posted 20 April 2005 04:52 PM            

quote:

---

It was E3b1, NOT E3b that spread from Africa to Eurasia. E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia

---

I respect Barbarian Berber because he is capable of debating without flaming.

Having said that, it seems obvious that he initially did not understand that E3b2 is derived from E3b-M35 which is essentially non existent in Eurasia and so kills his theory...as dead as a proverbrial doornail.

posted 20 April 2005 04:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Either you do not accept what anthropology says about the capsian deriving from the natufian and you do not write what you have posted above.

OR you accept the neolithic-middle eastener origin of north africans, and then, you can post what you have just posted.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

Two totally different cultures. The Natufian predate the Capsian by thousands of years, lived thousands of miles apart and have no cultural characteristics in common. Under your scenario you would have the settled village based, agricultural Natufians pick-up and relocate to NW Africa and then adopt a MORE PRIMATIVE lifestyle. I reiterate: The Capsians were non-food producing foragers; the Natufians were settled, village based agriculturalists. Your theory sir is very illogical indeed.

posted 20 April 2005 05:03 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

It was E3b1, NOT E3b that spread from Africa to Eurasia. E3b is virtually absent in Eurasia. E3b1 is affiliated with demic diffusion of the Middle Eastern neolithic not E3b. How could E3b diffuse back to Africa from the Middle East if it was not present in the Middle East?

---

Concerning the rest of your answer, complete nonsense:
-Afalou being from sub-sahara.
-capsian being Also from subsahara.

Peer-reviewed is just a new convention, it does not throw the archeological and anthropological work of The last century.

EDIT: I can't answer every thing now.

posted 20 April 2005 05:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

U5b1b : 6.600 B.C, the capsian didn't even reach present day morocco. and that was the LATEST Iberian mtdna to enter into north africa. Carthage was built 800 B.C... a difference of 6000 years.

All other mtdna were OLDER, example: 12.8 +- 2.4 kya for H1, and 10.3 +- 1.4 kya for H3. The OLDEST ONES are in HIGHER FREQUENCIES, U5b1b is found at a frequency of 2% among the Berbers.

---

Thought Writes:

What we are attempting to do is reconstruct the most reasonable model for the diffusion of these lineages to NW Africa from NW Europe. Please tell us specifically when you envision these genes moving into NW Africa from NW Europe?

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Do I have to remind you that sahrawi have 70% of those mtdna? do I have to remind you that Carthage was found 800 BC? Do I have to remind that Cathaginians came from the middle east? (therefore, no mtdna affinity with europeans)..etc.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 20 April 2005 05:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Concerning the rest of your answer, complete nonsense:

-Afalou being from sub-sahara.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Posts:

COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and
Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262.
ISSN 0018-442X.
Abstract:

We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

Peer-reviewed is just a new convention, it does not throw the archeological and anthropological work of The last century.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

posted 20 April 2005 05:51 PM            

To "know" how long ago a lineage is presumed to have occupied a given region
depends on the diversity of the haplotype there.

This helps in mapping the migratory direction of a given lineage.

Oftentime in their reports the geneticists make surmises about populations
based on historical and archealogical information that may be outdated.

It's always good to consider the TMRCA of the mutation that defines
a lineage along with the calculated time of its further downstream differences
and corelate that info with the most up to date researches in physical
anthropoly, archaeology, history, and linguistics.

What's so good about this forum is that there are members here who keep
conversant in various fields so that we get a balanced multidisciplinary
outlook instead of a myopic view leaning too heavily in favor of any one
approach.

posted 20 April 2005 06:09 PM            

Barbara Arredi et al
Am. J. Hum. Genet., 75:338-345, 2004
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

posted 20 April 2005 06:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:
The genetic lineages were all found in presently living individuals
and so the regional percentages reflect things as they are right now.

To "know" how long ago a lineage is presumed to have occupied a given region
depends on the diversity of the haplotype there.

This helps in mapping the migratory direction of a given lineage.

Oftentime in their reports the geneticists make surmises about populations
based on historical and archealogical information that may be outdated.

It's always good to consider the TMRCA of the mutation that defines
a lineage along with the calculated time of its further downstream differences
and corelate that info with the most up to date researches in physical
anthropoly, archaeology, history, and linguistics.

What's so good about this forum is that there are members here who keep
conversant in various fields so that we get a balanced multidisciplinary
outlook instead of a myopic view leaning too heavily in favor of any one
approach.

[This message has been edited by alTakruri~ (edited 20 April 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

Very well said.

posted 20 April 2005 08:21 PM            

Chronology of NW African cultures:

Taforalt (Morocco) 14,750 B.C.
Afalou-Bou-Rhummel (Algeria) 10,500 B.C.
Capsian (Algeria and Tunisia) 6,500 B.C. to 3,000 B.C.

Chronology of Natufian culture:

posted 20 April 2005 08:50 PM            

Journal of Human Evolution, 2000; 39 (4)
The Iberomaurusian enigma: North African progenitor or dead end?
Joel D. Irish

"The Capsian sample is also linked with some Nubians."

"Although interoobserver error cannot be ruled out as a factor, Natufians are **SIGNIFICANTLY DIVERGENT** from Iberomaurusians and other North Africans. Despite contemporaneity, they differ most from Afalou, Taforalt, and Jebel Sahaba."

"Lastly, the Natufian lack affinity to Capsians..."

posted 21 April 2005 03:23 PM            

Annals of Human Genetics (OnlineEarly)

Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry

Rita Gonçalves et al.

Summary

A total of 553 Y-chromosomes were analyzed from mainland Portugal and the North Atlantic Archipelagos of Açores and Madeira, in order to characterize the genetic composition of their male gene pool. A large majority (78-83% of each population) of the male lineages could be classified as belonging to three basic Y chromosomal haplogroups, R1b, J, and E3b. While R1b, accounting for more than half of the lineages in any of the Portuguese sub-populations, is a characteristic marker of many different West European populations, haplogroups J and E3b consist of lineages that are typical of the circum-Mediterranean region or even East Africa. The highly diverse haplogroup E3b in Portuguese likely combines sub-clades of distinct origins. The present composition of the Y chromosomes in Portugal in this haplogroup likely reflects a pre-Arab component shared with North African populations or testifies, at least in part, to the influence of Sephardic Jews. In contrast to the marginally low sub-Saharan African Y chromosome component in Portuguese, such lineages have been detected at a moderately high frequency in our previous survey of mtDNA from the same samples, indicating the presence of sex-related gene flow, most likely mediated by the Atlantic slave trade.

Thought Writes:

Note the attempt to dislodge East Africa from Sub-Saharan Africa now that E3b is known to be clearly of tropical African origin. The ironic thing is that E3b2 (Berber lineage) has a VERY recent TMRCA (~3,600 B.C.) from CLEARLY Sub-Saharan E3b in the Libyan/Western Desert or Central Sahara. Both of these regions were peopled at this time with populations who cluster with Sub-Saharan Africans at this time. Hence the ORIGINAL Berber's were possibly the people knwon as the Tehenu to the AEs.

Thought Posts:

http://www.geocities.com/juanjosecastillos/english.html

S. di Lernia, M. Cremaschi and F. Merighi, "Hunter-gatherers of the Central Sahara: a reassessment" - They limited their research to the territorial spread of human occupation and to social organization and the functions of the sites. There are many gaps in our knowledge of these people, where they came from, their social structure, beliefs, etc., and most of the sites that were studied don't go beyond about 7,000 BC. The sand seas in the area are abundant in sites of human occupation. They had a hierarchical distribution of their sites, base camps (residential) in the mountains, food procurement ones and workshops elsewhere. Palinological data indicate a longer occupation of the sites than previously assumed. (Note by the writer - Here I forgot to ask them if the palinological data was based on just a few samples or if on numerous and representative systematic studies in order to avoid the pitfalls this technique has involved in the past, but let's assume unless proved otherwise that the latter is the case). The picture shows the typical distribution of food resources with a greater abundance of the more easily storable goods. The pottery found includes many sherds that were decorated with incised geometrical motifs and is among the oldest in North Africa (9 to 10,000 BC). The few human remains found seem to have affinities (gene pool) with sub-Saharan populations. The petroglyphs are of a pastoral nature with figures of people and animals, mostly cattle.

Thought Posts:

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 21 April 2005).]

posted 23 April 2005 01:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Annals of Human Genetics (OnlineEarly)

Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry

Rita Gonçalves et al.

---

"Haplogroup E3b (characterized by mutation M35) is widespread in Northwest Africa, East Africa, the Middle-East and is also common in Europe, albeit at variable frequencies (Semino et al. 2000). Eastern Africa is seen as the homeland for E3b as there it has the highest number of different clades and microsatellite diversity and the almost exclusive prescence of E3b*, with estimates of ~30 ky for the age of the M35 mutation."

"E3b2-M81 in North Africa may have arisen near Egypt or Somalia and then spread westwards along the upper boundary of Africa. This particular haplogroup has been observed at variable frequencies in Iberian populations (1 - 12%)..."

Thought Writes:

posted 23 April 2005 02:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

"E3b2-M81 in North Africa may have arisen near Egypt or Somalia and then spread westwards along the upper boundary of Africa. This particular haplogroup has been observed at variable frequencies in Iberian populations (1 - 12%)..."

---

Thought Posts:

Golden Age of the Moor
Edited by Ivan Van Sertima

The African Heritage & Ethnohistory of the Moors

By Dana Reynolds

posted 23 April 2005 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

Golden Age of the Moor
Edited by Ivan Van Sertima

The African Heritage & Ethnohistory of the Moors

By Dana Reynolds

"It was just mentioned that the term Berber was also used by the Romans for people of the Somali coast and certain nomadic peoples of Nubia and the eastern desert. Large areas around the Red Sea are called in ancient maps Berbera or Barbarioi. The area extending between Berenice and down to Adulis in Ethiopia was Berber country and the Somali coast was called the country of the Barbarioi."

---

In discussing the origins of the Ancient Egyptians Champollian mentions the Beja and refers to them as Barabras:

The first tribes that inhabited Egypt, that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataract and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race.

Cavelli-Sforza also found a close genetic-biological relationship between the Beja and the Taureg.

posted 23 April 2005 03:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

It is clear that there are biologically, culturally and linguistically related peoples stretching across the sahelian zone from the Nubian desert coast on the red sea to the coast along the western sahara.

---

Thought Writes:

I agree. The mystery of North Africa is the chronology of Eurasian input into this region. It is our responsability to establish this chronology in that the presence of Eurasians in North Africa has been utilized as a tool to posit a Eurocentric intellectual root to AE.
I submit that there was a Upper Paleolithic back migration of Non-Caucasoid Eurasians carrying U6 and R1* into Africa. Outside of that I see no evidence for large scale Eurasian movements into the region before the Hyksos in NE Africa and the Phoenecians in NW Africa. Culturally, both of these groups developed from contact with AE.

posted 23 April 2005 04:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Annals of Human Genetics (OnlineEarly)

Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry

Rita Gonçalves et al.

---

Thought Posts:

"Haplogroup E3a is especially common in Sub-Saharan West Africa, has been associated with the dispersal of Bantu people and reaches ~80% in Senegal. The combined frequency of all these haplogroups in Portugal is marginally low, so it is highly unlikely it is a result of accidental sampling of African immigrants."

Thought Writes:

The last sentence in the comment above raises a serious question about the way geneticists model their studies. When sampling Europe, North Africa or the Middle East do they excluded people who stereotypically look exotic. Do they apply the same standard when studying Africa, especially northern Africa or do they model their studies on preconcieved notions of who belongs where.

posted 26 April 2005 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

Thought Writes:

The last sentence in the comment above raises a serious question about the way geneticists model their studies. When sampling Europe, North Africa or the Middle East do they excluded people who stereotypically look exotic. Do they apply the same standard when studying Africa, especially northern Africa or do they model their studies on preconcieved notions of who belongs where.

---

This is the subjective component of sampling that impinges on the impartial
science. Of course you have to have willing providers who should be unrelated
to each other. Then you have to a minimum number of subjects. Some studies
have used as few as 20 donors. Last I checked the accepted minimum was 50.
But even then or even reports having hundreds of donors we just accept
that randomness is attained and that a sample of less than 1% of a
population is truly representative.

Is there any info available on how donors are selected? Do they just
put an add in the local paper? Do they go out in the field and shout
"Who wants to volunteer?" What about the stubborn "indigenees" who
flat out refuse to aid the genome project? How would their DNA effect
the known data?

posted 26 April 2005 03:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:
This is the subjective component of sampling that impinges on the impartial
science. Of course you have to have willing providers who should be unrelated
to each other. Then you have to a minimum number of subjects. Some studies
have used as few as 20 donors. Last I checked the accepted minimum was 50.
But even then or even reports having hundreds of donors we just accept
that randomness is attained and that a sample of less than 1% of a
population is truly representative.

Is there any info available on how donors are selected? Do they just
put an add in the local paper? Do they go out in the field and shout
"Who wants to volunteer?" What about the stubborn "indigenees" who
flat out refuse to aid the genome project? How would their DNA effect
the known data?

---

Thought Writes:

Great points alTakruri. I was reviewing a few of the studies on E3b and noticed that the sample sizes in West Africa were very small when compared to Europe, the Horn of Africa and the Near East. The results for West Africa are probably not statistically significant. Many populations in Africa have not even been studied, for example the people of northern Niger, Chad, southern Libya and the Siwa of Egypt and the Darfur region of Sudan. This would be the region where the E3b2 lineage of the Berber's likely arose ~ 3,600 B.C. The people living in this region today are clearly Black African. Hence the **ORIGINAL** Berber's were likely to be Black African as well.

posted 26 April 2005 03:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Thought: I find it staggering to think that the Siwa of Egypt have not been specifically and comprehensively studied.

We get wild speculations about 'shared dairying regions', and the Siwa have not even even been tested?

---

Well that's because the kind of people interested in Siwa folk (and
that kind of stuff) haven't invested in an education in the field of
population genetics.

When independent minded persons of African descent get on the ball
it will roll in that direction. Keita can't do it all alone!

posted 26 April 2005 04:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:

Well that's because the kind of people interested in Siwa folk (and
that kind of stuff) haven't invested in an education in the field of
population genetics.

When independent minded persons of African descent get on the ball
it will roll in that direction. Keita can't do it all alone!

---

Word.

posted 26 April 2005 06:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:

Well that's because the kind of people interested in Siwa folk (and
that kind of stuff) haven't invested in an education in the field of
population genetics.

When independent minded persons of African descent get on the ball
it will roll in that direction. Keita can't do it all alone!

---

Thought Writes:

Perhaps as some of us get a little older and more financially prosperous we can come together and create a scholarship program geared toward this. I for one will be ready to seriously commit to such a program in about 10 years.

posted 11 May 2005 05:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:

I have two studies that cannot be accessed (saami and berbers+ another), if you want them, give me your me mail.

---

Barbarian Berber, I really want to read this articles before joining the debate, so I would be very pleased if you want to send me the articles you are referring to.

My email adress is aprerogative@yahoo.com

posted 15 May 2005 11:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
[QUOTE][b]That source you cited says NOTHING about the frequecy of U6. No beef in between the bread.

---

Not this study, this one in pdf:
http://www.white-history.com/portugal_files/Gonzalez2003.pdf

The newer study says that Moroccan Berbers are close to southern Spaniards but still not exactly there.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Out of interest what are your origins??