posted 12 April 2005 11:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMix:
so there are actually black berbers. and they are not all white as EE would have us assume.

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Of course. The Siwa are the earliest known Libou [or Westerners] referenced in the
Km.t literature from the old Kingdom. They were called the Tehenu. They are actually portrayed in some Kemetic iconography with clearly African features.

The controversy surrounding the Berbers has always been.....from where do they originate.

You're talking about an ethnically diverse group of North Africans who share a common language and common genetic pattern. Their language and paternal lineage comes from tropical East Africa.

It cannot stem from West Asia, as Berber language is non existent there and Berber Y chromsome - E3b2 is rare in the middle east.

For the same reasons they cannot originate in NorthWest Africa, at least not as a Ethno-linguistic group.

We have yet to see comprehensive DNA study on the Siwa, but some believe that if their male paternity is predominently E3b and the E3b is not entirely E3b2, it would tend to substantiate them as the oldest of the Berber clans. On the other hand if their E3b is entirely E3b2 the Siwa could just as easily be the result of Berber's who back migrated into the Eastern Sahara, after the intial East West migration.

Of interest also is that genetics has revealed a close relationship between the Taureg of West Africa and the Beja of East Africa.

The suggestion is that the Taureg recently [within the last 5kya] migrated from East to West from a similar-common stock as the Meja.
If that is the case then the physical similarity between Taureg and Beja would not be a coincidence....and this would tend to support the theory of a predominently Black Berber group migrating from East to West AFrica.

It's a complicated subject though and you can count only on the fact that nothing will be resolved any time soon.

Touareg.

posted 12 April 2005 11:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

The Siwan people are mostly Berbers, the true Western Desert indigenous people, who once roamed the North African coast between Tunisia and Morocco. They inhabited the area as early as 10,000 BC, first moving towards the coast, but later inland as other conquering invaders arrived. -
touregypt.net

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

We may find the most prestine example of this populations among the tropical types found on the Jerba Islands of Tunisia.

posted 12 April 2005 12:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

We may find the most prestine example of this populations among the tropical types found on the Jerba Islands of Tunisia.

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posted 12 April 2005 12:19 PM            

Recently on this forum we have discussed the theories of Arredi, Bellwood and now Myles who postulate that sheep and goat herders from SW Asia spread the Afro-Asiatic languages to Africa during the late neolithic.

There are several problems with this theory. First of all in most of these studies the Siwa and other tropically adapted North Africans have not been sampled genetically. Another problem is that NW Africans share mtDNA with Western Europe and **NOT** SW Asia. Yet another problem is that while NW Africans do share in the haplogroup J Y-Chromosome with SW Asians, as Rasol mentioned Nebel et al. has found that most of this lineage can be traced back to the Arab invasions, not the neolithic era. Finally the oldest Afro-Asiatic languages are Cushitic and the Cushitic speakers of East Africa such as the Oromo have few if any Eurasian genes.

posted 12 April 2005 12:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Why that group?

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Thought Writes:

posted 12 April 2005 01:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMix:
thanks for the info. this is mind opening. When I thought of Berbers, I thought they were only white North Africans.

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That is what repetition is for, to remind. The subject of 'Berber' origins, and clarity of the term, has been covered here numerous times. It is clearly a group of people, that diffusionists like to target for spuriousness, aside from on and off focus on East African groups.

posted 12 April 2005 01:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Big Mix....don't let these guys lead you down the yellow brick road....Berbers were North African caucasians. Their little trick is to find a black gene somewhere folating around and then blow it all out of proportion.

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...in which case, Horemheb, will now show us that he knows what he is talking about, or that some sense can be made out of this drivel, by providing some genealogical substantiation!

posted 12 April 2005 02:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Now super car...if I print out these stupid posts on genetics you guys make and take them over to the science department just what do you think I am going to hear. We know , do we not.....? My guess is that you know as little about genetics as you do about history and that is almost nothing.

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Well, Horemheb, you made an 'attempt' to communicate with Bigmix, in which case, you were given the opportunity to support your remarks with genealogical substance, and show everyone else just how much you know. The above comment, doesn't bode well for how much you know.

posted 12 April 2005 02:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
[B]Why argue with an idiot.

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Correct. I don't try to argue with you; rather, I try to expose the idiot first, and then perhaps as a bonus, teach him/her along the way.

quote:

---

Horemheb:
Do you honestly think I am going to argue with someone who doesn't understand the role of the Greeks in the development of western civilization?

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Speaking of which, you still haven't been able to say what 'western' civilization is and what it has anything to do with the ancient Greeks. You ought to not be using words, you don't understand.

quote:

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Horemheb:
Someone who fails to grasp what the term 'near east' means and sees a black person under every rock.

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You were given an opportunity to make a coherent point on the 'near east' term, and you failed miserably; forcing you to bring the subject to this thread, and hence, change the topic.

quote:

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Horemheb:

The Greek thing alone costs you every ounce of your credibility. After that everything you say is suspect.

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You are kid playing with matches; two elements that ought to not mix, or else...

We are waiting for that genealogical substance to your earlier claim. Should we take this last comment of yours, as your answer to that request?

posted 13 April 2005 08:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMix:
so there are actually black berbers. and they are not all white as EE would have us assume.

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posted 13 April 2005 12:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
According to the [b]most recent research, Berbers are descended mainly from Middle Eastern Neolithic peoples. The non-Caucasoid elements in certain groups today result from later intermarriage with Sub-Saharan Africans. This admixture is usually maternal and limited to southern Berbers.[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:

Thought Writes:
Recently on this forum we have discussed the theories of Arredi, Bellwood and now Myles who postulate that sheep and goat herders from SW Asia spread the Afro-Asiatic languages to Africa during the late neolithic.

There are several problems with this theory. First of all in most of these studies the Siwa and other tropically adapted North Africans have not been sampled genetically. Another problem is that NW Africans share mtDNA with Western Europe and **NOT** SW Asia. Yet another problem is that while NW Africans do share in the haplogroup J Y-Chromosome with SW Asians, as Rasol mentioned Nebel et al. has found that most of this lineage can be traced back to the Arab invasions, not the neolithic era. Finally the oldest Afro-Asiatic languages are Cushitic and the Cushitic speakers of East Africa such as the Oromo have few if any Eurasian genes.

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posted 13 April 2005 12:50 PM            

A Predominatly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Arredi et al.

"Second, just two haplogroups predominate within North Africa, together making up almost two-thirds of the male lineages: E3b2 and J* (42% and 20%, respectively)."

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa

Nebel et al.

"Our recent findings, however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 (Haplogroup J) chromosomes in NW Africa are due to **recent gene flow** caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (CE)."

Genetics and linguistics in Sub-Saharan Africa

R.M. Blench

"Brakez et al. (2001) analysing Moroccan Berbers, concluded that the majority of their mtDNA was West Eurasian with a 26% contribution from Sub-Saharan Africa..."

Human Y-Chromosome haplogroup E3b in Africa: a phylogeographic study

Cruciani et al.

"An estimate of 25.6ky for the TMRCA was obtained for the haplogroup E3b, which most likely **originated** in Eastern Africa."

posted 13 April 2005 12:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

Here is how Dr. Wells characterized E3/PN2 in the study on the origins of the Phoenician's in Carthage:

"Most men living in the area surronding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96 (PN2), which is the aboriginal type in North and West Africa."

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posted 13 April 2005 01:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

A Predominatly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Arredi et al.

"Second, just two haplogroups predominate within North Africa, together making up almost two-thirds of the male lineages: E3b2 and J* (42% and 20%, respectively)."

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa

Nebel et al.

"Our recent findings, however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 (Haplogroup J) chromosomes in NW Africa are due to **recent gene flow** caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (CE)."

Genetics and linguistics in Sub-Saharan Africa

R.M. Blench

"Brakez et al. (2001) analysing Moroccan Berbers, concluded that the majority of their mtDNA was West Eurasian with a 26% contribution from Sub-Saharan Africa..."

Human Y-Chromosome haplogroup E3b in Africa: a phylogeographic study

Cruciani et al.

"An estimate of 25.6ky for the TMRCA was obtained for the haplogroup E3b, which most likely **originated** in Eastern Africa."

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 13 April 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

In summation we can see that the maternal lineage of Berbers is mainly West Eurasian and Iberian specifically, with an ~25% contribution from tropical Africa.. The Paternal lineage is mainly East African derived, with an ~20% contribution from the Arab gene pool. The modus operandi behind the Neolithic Eurasian incursion into North Africa is rooted in a psychological need to posit some Eurasian and utlimately Northern European connection to Egypt. Ancient Egypt is **ONE** of the roots of Mediterranean High Culture and hence European Culture. By finding some 'white genius' in the primordial Saharan-Sudanese 'white culture' can lay claim to the success of Egypt and sustain their ego's in relation to its effect on Greece.

posted 13 April 2005 01:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

Here is how Dr. Wells characterized E3/PN2 in the study on the origins of the Phoenician's in Carthage:

"Most men living in the area surronding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96 (PN2), which is the aboriginal type in North and West Africa."

---

The attempt to conjure a "Berber" origin in the Middle East would seem to be ultimately superfluous.

The languages do not exist in the Middle East;

Berber Y chromosome, M81, is rare in the Middle East and arose in Africa during the Westward expansion of Berber speakers as explained by Arredi herself:

M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

The idea of originating Berber in the Middle East amounts to speculating that a specific African group:

a) crossed into the Levant,
b) stepped back into Africa,

then...

c) developed Berber languages found only in Africa.
d) developed unique chromosomal signature [M81], in Africa.
e) spread both the languages and lineages to West Africa.

While items c, d, and e account for known facts.....

...items a and b are examples of speculation AGAINST facts - and begging the proof of a negative.

ie - prove that the Berber ancestors NEVER crossed into the Levant. (??) Exactly how would one prove that, and what is the relevance of it anyway if the languages and lineages are not tracable to Western Asia?

It also creates mysteries that require convoluted 'answers' -

* why are there no Berber languages in Asia?
* why is M81 rare in Asia?
* why does Berber exist almost entirely West of the Nile and spread only Westward stopping
at the North West Coast of Africa?
* why is there a specific close genetic relationship between Jerba Island Berbers and East Africans?
* why is their a specific and close genetic relationship between the Taureg and the Beja?

These relationships center around PN2 genetically, and not around West Asian J, as Dr. Spencer Wells correctly noted. This suggests the a probability that Haplotype J constitutes little more than a data-mirage produced by the massive J-clade Arab expansion.

The Arabs are not the Berber. Good posts Thought.

posted 13 April 2005 02:03 PM            

quote:

---

The idea of originating Berber in the Middle East amounts to speculating that a specific African group:

a) crossed into the Levant,
b) stepped back into Africa,

then...

c) developed Berber languages found only in Africa.
d) developed unique chromosomal signature [M81], in Africa.
e) spread both the languages and lineages to West Africa.

While items c, d, and e account for known facts.....

...items a and b are examples of speculation AGAINST facts - and begging the proof of a negative.

ie - prove that the Berber ancestors NEVER crossed into the Levant. (??) Exactly how would one prove that, and what is the relevance of it anyway if the languages and lineages are not tracable to the Western Asia?

It also creates mysteries with no easy answers -

* why are there no Berber languages in Asia?
* why is M81 rare in Asia?
* why does Berber exist almost entirely West of the Nile and spread only Westward stopping
at the North West Coast of Africa?
* why is there a specific genetic relationship between Jerba Island Berbers and East Africans?

* why is their a specific and close genetic relationship between the Taureg and the Beja?

These relationships center around PN2 genetically, and not around West Asian J, as Dr. Spencer Wells correctly noted. This suggests the a probability that Haplotype J contitutes little more than a data-mirage produced by the massive J-clade Arab expansion.

---

Well, distortion artists never look at coherency as an ingredient of reasoning. These are the questions rational thinkers naturally come across, before jumping into conclusion.

posted 13 April 2005 02:12 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

In summation we can see that the maternal lineage of Berbers is mainly West Eurasian and Iberian specifically, with an ~25% contribution from tropical Africa.. The Paternal lineage is mainly East African derived, with an ~20% contribution from the Arab gene pool. The modus operandi behind the Neolithic Eurasian incursion into North Africa is rooted in a psychological need to posit some Eurasian and utlimately Northern European connection to Egypt. Ancient Egypt is **ONE** of the roots of Mediterranean High Culture and hence European Culture. By finding some 'white genius' in the primordial Saharan-Sudanese 'white culture' can lay claim to the success of Egypt and sustain their ego's in relation to its effect on Greece.

---

posted 13 April 2005 02:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Super car.. I can think of no one who jumps to more conclusions than you. This is like to pot calling the kettle black.

---

posted 13 April 2005 06:27 PM            

Genetic evidence in suport of a shared Eurasian-North African dairying origin

Myles et al. 2005

"The transition from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to one including food production has had profound effects on technology, deomography, social organization and even the biology of most human populations (Diamond 1998). Two contrasting population models have been put forward for this transition. The first model, demic diffusion, attributes the spread of farming to the local growth and expansion of farmers. The second model, cultural diffusion, invloves farming being passed from one local group to the next without substantial movement of farming populations."

Thought Writes:

One of the other problems withn the theory of Arredi, Bellwood and now Myles is that they do not even mention the Saharan-Sudanese cultural in their studies! Teethering stones and game drives are found through-out the Sahara. Rock art dated to 10500 B.P. show Saharan populations experimenting with the management of animals such as lassoed Giraffes. Africans successfully domesticated cattle and the donkey in this region. The evidence of animal management in the Central Sahara (Uan Afunda)and the Western Desert (Nabta-Kiseiba)as early as 9000 B.P. indicate that these African people were allready 'presensitized' to the process that leads to animal domestication.

The pottery sequence found at Nabta Playa-Kiseiba fall within the Saharan-Sudanese tradition before 7100 B.P. Domestic Caprines first appear at Nabta-Kiseiba Egypt around 7600 B.P., Shaqadud Sudan circa 7500 B.P., Ennedi Bardague Chad 7455 B.P., Ti-n-Torha cave North (Uan Afunda) Libya 7400 B.P., Haua Fteah Libya 7000 B.P., and Grotte Capeletti Algeria 6530 B.P.(Diane Difford-Gonzalez in African Archaeology; 2005). Hence Domestic Caprines spread from the Nile to the Central Sahara and Maghreb. However the genetic analysis of Sudanese populations (Semino et al. 2004) found 0% haplogroup J*. All of this implies continuity which supports a model of cultural and not demic diffusion of Domestic Caprines.

posted 13 April 2005 09:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

Here is how Dr. Wells characterized E3/PN2 in the study on the origins of the Phoenician's in Carthage:

"Most men living in the area surronding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96 (PN2), which is the aboriginal type in North and West Africa."

---

Thought Posts:

Before Color Prejudice
By Frank M. Snowden

"The nomenclature and descriptions of blacks in northwest Africa also underscores the attentive detail of Greek and Roman observers. Several peoples from this area of Africa were specifically designated as Ethiopians by one or more ancient authors."

Thought Posts:

Andrew B. Smith
A prehistory of modern Saharan pastoralists

ABSTRACT
Using archaeological and ethnographic data, this paper suggests that the ancestors of many modern Saharan pastoral groups, e.g. Tuareg, Toubou, Beja, may have had connections during the mid- to late-Holocene. Deep-meaning, exemplified by rock art and funerary monuments in the past, and pre-Islamic religious beliefs in the present, offer clues to a possible common heritage. It is further suggested that prehistoric Saharan herders may have been cultural innovators, and ideas spread from the Sahara to the Nile Valley and the Maghreb.

posted 13 April 2005 10:27 PM            

The Berbers[Imazgihen] are not a homogenous people. Contrary to your belief about them they range from southern European looking to black looking like the Haratin in southern Morocco. Haratin are not black slaves that became enslaved by the Berbers[Imaazghen] but are actually indigenous Saharan people that became assimilated into the Tuareg caste system.

Most so-called ''black'' slaves brought into Magreb were mostly around the city areas,and most often came as eunchs. This means they couldn't really produce that much offspring.

Much more white slaves were brought into Northern Africa than black slaves because the white slaves were much more desired for concubinage than was black slaves. [Sorry to get racial here but I am only repeating what I read in Arabic writings.]

There is a book etitled The Berbers by Michael Brett and Elizabeth Fentress that I recommend everybody go out and read. It seems according to this book that the coastal regions of Magreb[meaning areas like Tunisa and Morocco] had close contact with Southern Europeans and Iberians. This culture is commonly called the Ibero-Maurasian complex. Other cultures that exist in later periods were the Metcha-Aflou-Arbi and Capsian.

Most anthropologist have placed the Metcha-Aflou into every category from Khoisanoid to Cro-Magnoid. The Capsians have often been called a mixed ''caucasoid'' and ''negriod'' culture.

While I think there were clearly ''black'' people present in the Saharan areas since Neolithic, I am not certain about the costal areas of North-western Africa. More genetic and physical anthropology studies must be conducted on the costal areas of Magrebian northern Africa for me to decide.

I just don't see why many are so quick to claim the Imazighen because they really didn't accomplish much in terms of high culture. Most of the Imazighen borrowed heavily from cultures surrounding them.

posted 13 April 2005 10:27 PM            

The Berbers[Imazgihen] are not a homogenous people. Contrary to your belief about them they range from southern European looking to black looking like the Haratin in southern Morocco. Haratin are not black slaves that became enslaved by the Berbers[Imaazghen] but are actually indigenous Saharan people that became assimilated into the Tuareg caste system.

Most so-called ''black'' slaves brought into Magreb were mostly around the city areas,and most often came as eunchs. This means they couldn't really produce that much offspring.

Much more white slaves were brought into Northern Africa than black slaves because the white slaves were much more desired for concubinage than was black slaves. [Sorry to get racial here but I am only repeating what I read in Arabic writings.]

There is a book etitled The Berbers by Michael Brett and Elizabeth Fentress that I recommend everybody go out and read. It seems according to this book that the coastal regions of Magreb[meaning areas like Tunisa and Morocco] had close contact with Southern Europeans and Iberians. This culture is commonly called the Ibero-Maurasian complex. Other cultures that exist in later periods were the Metcha-Aflou-Arbi and Capsian.

Most anthropologist have placed the Metcha-Aflou into every category from Khoisanoid to Cro-Magnoid. The Capsians have often been called a mixed ''caucasoid'' and ''negriod'' culture.

While I think there were clearly ''black'' people present in the Saharan areas since Neolithic, I am not certain about the costal areas of North-western Africa. More genetic and physical anthropology studies must be conducted on the costal areas of Magrebian northern Africa for me to decide.

I just don't see why many are so quick to claim the Imazighen because they really didn't accomplish much in terms of high culture. Most of the Imazighen borrowed heavily from cultures surrounding them.

posted 13 April 2005 10:53 PM            

Thought Posts:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040310-115506-8528r.htm

A million Europeans enslaved

REUTERS NEWS AGENCY
An American historian says that more than a million Europeans were enslaved by North African slave traders between 1530 and 1780, a time of vigorous Mediterranean and Atlantic coastal piracy.
The number of white European slaves is only a fraction of the trade that brought 10 million to 12 million black African slaves to the Americas over a 400-year period, historian Robert Davis says, but his research shows the slave trade was more widespread than commonly assumed. The impact on Europe's white population was significant.
"One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature — that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true," said Mr. Davis, an Ohio State University professor.
"Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland."
In a new book, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800," Mr. Davis calculates that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates called "corsairs" and forced to work in North Africa during that period.
The raids were so aggressive that entire Mediterranean seaside towns were abandoned by frightened residents. "Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe.
"Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear."
The pirates, sailing from such cities as Tunis and Algiers, raided ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children, he says. They were put to work in quarries, in heavy construction and as oarsmen in the pirates' galleys.
Mr. Davis calculated his estimates using records that indicate how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.
"It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available."

{There is a book etitled The Berbers by Michael Brett and Elizabeth Fentress that I recommend everybody go out and read. It seems according to this book that the coastal regions of Magreb[meaning areas like Tunisa and Morocco] had close contact with Southern Europeans and Iberians.}

Thought Writes:

Are they physical anthropologists or archaeologists?

{While I think there were clearly ''black'' people present in the Saharan areas since Neolithic, I am not certain about the costal areas of North-western Africa. More genetic and physical anthropology studies must be conducted on the costal areas of Magrebian northern Africa for me to decide.}

Thought Writes:

There were no substantial agricultural settlements along the North African coast prior to the Carthaginian period. The **EARLIEST** evidence we have for settled agricultural villages in Africa west of the Nile comes from Dhar Tichitt in southern Mauritania dating to 1800 B.C. The Capsian culture was essentially Mesolithic, they were not food producers and hence as Arredi et al indicates population density would have been slight in coastal NW Africa prior to the Carthaginian period.

My theory is that the Berber languages and genes (E3b2) spread west from the Egyptian Oasis’ (Siwa etc) to Zinchera (capital of the Garamantians) under the Libyan or Kushite dynasties. When the Phoenicians established Carthage they opened up trade routes with the Saharan herders and the agricultural Garamantians. The Garamantians eventually became the middle men in the sahara for the Phoenicians. The lingua-franca of the Garamantians spread through trade and conquest as far west as the Adrar and Atlas mountains.

{I just don't see why many are so quick to claim the Imazighen}

Thought Writes:

In my mind it is not as much an issue about ‘claiming’ the Imazighen as it is about placing the genetic and linguistic heritage of Northern Africa within its proper context :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought:

The modus operandi behind the Neolithic Eurasian incursion into North Africa is rooted in a psychological need to posit some Eurasian and utlimately Northern European connection to Egypt. Ancient Egypt is **ONE** of the roots of Mediterranean High Culture and hence European Culture. By finding some 'white genius' in the primordial Saharan-Sudanese 'white culture' can lay claim to the success of Egypt and sustain their ego's in relation to its effect on Greece.

---

posted 13 April 2005 11:12 PM            

Not much physical anthropology on the remains in Magrebian Northern Africa has been done. However, the following book I mention does imply that most of the Saharan culture was Sudan-Saharo in origin. Meaning most of the early food producers and cattle herders were ''tropical Africans''. Most of the book is concerned with archaeology,and mentions close contact with coastl Magrebian countries through Southern European,and the authors draw upon pottery traditions to substantiate this.

I did find one book that is dated to 1980 that deals with the following topic:

Chamla, M.C., "The settlement of non-Saharan Algeria from the epipaleolithic to modern times," In I. Schwidetsky, B. Chairelli and N. Necrosov (eds) The Physical Anthropology of european Populations, 1980.

[you might have read this book] Right know I am aquiring it through inter-library loan.

posted 13 April 2005 11:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Most of the book is concerned with archaeology,and mentions close contact with coastl Magrebian countries through Southern European,and the authors draw upon pottery traditions to substantiate this.

---

Thought Writes:

Contact between coastal NW Africa and southern Europe is certainly possible, but it is of interest that while pre-Pheonician Iberia practiced settled agriculture and established a megalithic complex in conjunction with the rest of the European Atlantic up to Stonehenge the Maghereb did not. This would imply that any contact that existed between the two regions was ephemeral at best.

posted 13 April 2005 11:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

However, the following book I mention does imply that most of the Saharan culture was Sudan-Saharo in origin. Meaning most of the early food producers and cattle herders were ''tropical Africans''.

---

Thought Writes:

Ausar, by using the term **MOST** are you suggesting that the book implies that there were non-Saharan-Sudanese food producers in the neolithic Sahara? If so what is the archaeological context they envision? Thanks.

posted 14 April 2005 02:03 AM            

quote:

---

I just don't see why many are so quick to claim the Imazighen because they really didn't accomplish much in terms of high culture. Most of the Imazighen borrowed heavily from cultures surrounding them.

---

As you must know, the Imazighen are battling for their cultural identity against the Arabisation drive. This issue is similar for them as it is for the Sa3eadi in Egypt.

The Eurocentrists have traditionally tried to invent a non African identity for the Berber, whether European or SouthWest Asian...but this has been undermined by linguistics and genetics which route their origins in East Africa.

Some Imazighen nationalists play along with the Eurocentric view that attempts to relate them to southern Europe, [though you will notice they invariably side step the role of of white slavery in the equasion] as long as it distinguishes them from the Arabs.

posted 14 April 2005 07:37 AM            

Sean Miles
Human Genetics (Online Early)

posted 14 April 2005 08:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Human Genetics (Online Early)

Genetic evidence in support of a shared Eurasian-North African dairying origin

Sean Myles

Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 14 April 2005 08:45 AM            

Samples:

33 Mzab-Wargla speakers
39 Tamazight speakers from Amizmiz Morocco
33 Tamazight speakers from Middle Atlas Morocco

posted 14 April 2005 08:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Evil E...these guys find a black guy under every rock. Thoughtless gets so confused he doesn't know what he is posting half the time. the problem is they are trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear and it can't be done. One of them on another site claimed Cleopatra was black....this is the kind of mentality you are dealing with.
We wnt through the same thing with the thomas jefferson/Sally Hemmings thing for years. In the end they were wrong as usual.

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See this is what eurocentrism does to one, it make one irrational and focused on proving non-black and especially european/caucasian descents or origination when the thought process should be opposite and coming from the standpoint of Africans when discussing the human family.

Why should there be a surprise that the black race/the African is the most diverse, genetically, and phenotypically? If you were a rationally thinking person and non-eurocentric you would acknowledge that blacks or africans would probably permeate most ancient peoples and history especially since the few non-black elements are very recent.

posted 14 April 2005 12:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Thought Writes:

Berbers and Iberians share in a common gene pool based upon mtDNA. Immigration from Eurasia since the Cartheginian period is the most parsimonious explaination for this shared gene pool.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

Contact between coastal NW Africa and southern Europe is certainly possible, but it is of interest that while pre-Pheonician Iberia practiced settled agriculture and established a megalithic complex in conjunction with the rest of the European Atlantic up to Stonehenge the Maghereb did not. This would imply that any contact that existed between the two regions was ephemeral at best.

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Thought Posts:

Am. J. Hum. Genet., 76:883-886, 2005

Saami and BerbersAn Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link

Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1

1Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Università di Pavia, Pavia, Italy; 2Dipartimento di Genetica e Biologia Molecolare, Università "La Sapienza," Rome; 3Dipartimento di Biologia Cellulare e Ambientale, Università di Perugia, Perugia, Italy; and 4Fachbereich Mathematik, Universität Hamburg, Hamburg

Received January 21, 2005; accepted for publication March 3, 2005; electronically published March 24, 2005.

The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the "out of Africa" exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 14 April 2005).]

posted 14 April 2005 05:43 PM            

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Originally posted by Thought2:

The modus operandi behind the Neolithic Eurasian incursion into North Africa is rooted in a psychological need to posit some Eurasian and utlimately Northern European connection to Egypt. Ancient Egypt is **ONE** of the roots of Mediterranean High Culture and hence European Culture. By finding some 'white genius' in the primordial Saharan-Sudanese 'white culture' can lay claim to the success of Egypt and sustain their ego's in relation to its effect on Greece.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 13 April 2005).]

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Thought Posts:

Ancient Egypt in Africa
Edited by david O'Connor and Andrew Reid
2004

"First, insofar as ancient Egyptian civilization is African to a significant degree, and had a substantial influence on Greek culture, then Africa can be said to have played a part in the development of European civilization in general."

Black Athena Revisted
Edited by Lefkowitz and Rogers

Black Athena: An Egyptological Review
By Frank J. Yurco

"Supporters of the Aryan Model could now detach Egyptian pharaonic civilization from any supposed African origin. Egypt's high civilization was proclaimed the work of the 'dynastic race'. "

African Archaeological Review
Vol. 21 No. 1 March 2004

Book Review
Holocene Settlement of the Egyptian Sahara
Review by Savino di Lernia

"Independently from the possible interpretations of these complex structures, it is clear that the whole body of evidence - the megalithic alignments, the astronomical features, the shrines - emphasizes an increasing social complexity within these pastoral groups."

African Archaeology
Edited by Ann Brower Stahl
2005

Pastoralism and its Consequences
By Diane Gifford-Gonzalez

"Some Predynastic sites also have cow interments (F. Hassan, pers. comm. 1997), a practice that continues in association with temple construction into the Dynastic era. Applegate et al. (2001) summarize special handling of cattle over a wide range of the central and eastern Sahara."

Thought Writes:

At one time the Eurocentric ideologues could surmise a Eurasian root to cultural complexity in Egypt and hence by default Greece. Now that the recent discoveries in the neolithic sahara have sealed that window of opportunity they now resort to injecting wandering, mythical paleolithic or neolithic Eurasians in the sahara.

posted 15 April 2005 08:20 AM            

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Originally posted by rasol:

Originally posted by Thought2:

[ . . . ]

Thought Writes:

[ . . . ]

Thought Posts:

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Rasol has no evidence whatsoever, so he must resort to quoting other forum members as if they were scientists.

Unrefuted studies:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

posted 15 April 2005 08:39 AM            

Instead Erroneous links to abstracts that we have discussed earlier, and that 'he' is unprepared to even discuss. How lame.

Why does Erroneous even bother replying if he has no answers either then or now.

Better he should ponder his many rhetorical blunders , and then reconsider his phoney ethnocentric ideology altogether.