quote:Originally posted by Celt: Of course I don't believe the Greeks are a racially pure people considering the location of Greece and the interactions they had with numerous peoples over the centuries.
The real question is, who hasn't.
Are the Celts racially pure?
I doubt that they are. At least not as they were centuries ago.
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There's even a considerable amount of the Icelandic population that have dark hair and dark eyes. I personally don't believe those traits to be intrinsic to those people centuries earlier, even though you have people that like to think that they are racially pure.
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^LOL, I hear ya.. He or she isn't being very responsive at all(let aside bringing anything of any substance), so you indeed have a point there..
LOL...I'm actually working on a classic car right now and don't desire to get into with you.But it is nice to take a break once in a while and come to this forum for some amusement. Your desire to impose an ideology of what you wish had taken place doesn't do anything to enforce the real facts whatever they may be.
Once more you have evaded my direct questioning and instead of offering evidence for your faith-based claims, you merely cop-out by feigning amusement. No one here declared any particular ideology, we are focusing on facts and how these facts pertain to the evidence. You however, have provided nothing of worth and I never asked you about any classic cars, we're engaged in an entirely different discussion. Did you review the relevant literature that I've provided for you, if so, what is your opinion on it and do you have a rebuttal? If not, why are you commenting? In what way are you being productive and what is your goal here? Again, refer to my sources please, I'm not concerned about your life or world view, only the facts.
quote:Originally posted by Celt: Of course I don't believe the Greeks are a racially pure people considering the location of Greece and the interactions they had with numerous peoples over the centuries.
The real question is, who hasn't.
Are the Celts racially pure?
I doubt that they are. At least not as they were centuries ago.
Why would they have been more "pure" centuries ago and what is the basis for your doubt? Seems a bit arbitrary, no?
quote:Originally posted by Celt: There's even a considerable amount of the Icelandic population that have dark hair and dark eyes. I personally don't believe those traits to be intrinsic to those people centuries earlier, even though you have people that like to think that they are racially pure.
I hope that you're not implying that blond hair and blue eyes indicate "purity"? While you accuse others of whatever ideologies, it's ironic that you don't realize your own Nazi influenced ideology in which you contribute to the topic.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^Recent mutations, natural or artificial selection, and drift, why shouldn't there be? What does this have to do with "race" or "racial purity"?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: I've compiled a list of racially pure people below.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6.
In which case racial purity - which you brought up - is actually irrelevant.
Next question, if there is no racial purity, can there be racial mixture?
I believe it's true that certain groups being isolated for long periods of time most definitely developed traits intrinsically specific to those groups. That is why we can pick a blonde hair and blue eyed individual out of a group of Nigerians that have an ancestral lineage that is indigenous to Africa going back thousands and thousands of years.
I really don't know how we can define those differences considering they are really superficial and not a necessary requirement for procreation inside or outside of anyones so-called race.
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quote:Why are you showing pictures of Arab and probably Indian mixed Somalis and comparing them to sudanese
Somali have less Arab ancestry than Sudanese and no Indian ancestry.
I see you are still doing your passive aggressor clown act, where you make false statements and try to hide them in fake-questions.
What a tiresome little troll you are.
You need to get a second act.
Bullshiit these people dont look at all African you are just an African American that has never stepped foot in Africa and don't know how many damn Arabs and Indians are in East and the horn of Africa.
Dudette do you really think those haplomaps have ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD DNA TESTED?!?!?
I know you aren't this dense Rasol. Somalis have tons of Arab blood why do you think they hate themselves so much and Indian blood as well. There are millions of Somalis and not ALL of them have been DNA tested not even CLOSE.
You are going WAY over board with this new found toy of genetics dude. Give it a rest and think more sanely.
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Why are you showing pictures of Arab and probably Indian mixed Somalis and comparing them to sudanese
Somali have less Arab ancestry than Sudanese and no Indian ancestry.
I see you are still doing your passive aggressor clown act, where you make false statements and try to hide them in fake-questions.
What a tiresome little troll you are.
You need to get a second act.
Bullshiit these people dont look at all African you are just an African American that has never stepped foot in Africa and don't know how many damn Arabs and Indians are in East and the horn of Africa.
Dudette do you really think those haplomaps have ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD DNA TESTED?!?!?
I know you aren't this dense Rasol. Somalis have tons of Arab blood why do you think they hate themselves so much and Indian blood as well. There are millions of Somalis and not ALL of them have been DNA tested not even CLOSE.
You are going WAY over board with this new found toy of genetics dude. Give it a rest and think more sanely.
Instead of getting our knickers all twisted in a knot. there is a simple way of looking at this. (Me and my simple mind) The "Eurocentrics" want to claim AE; the AFROAMERICANS want to claim AE as their own. The Arabs own it and is making money(tourism). The simpliest solution is to ask how do the AE view themselves. When we ask them, what do they say? I am new to this but if the Gates of Men is true. They look at themselves as Black as other African. They painted themselves Black in pics on walls etc. Some had bantu features (need for a better term, some had E African featurs. To sum up they considered themselves black. Conclusion they are Black Africans. End of story. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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^^^this is a good post, but a lot of people would say alot of the images look non-black especially all the whitish-yellow and yellow paintings of people. And they could be proto-non blacks due to evolution etc.
I am still undecided I am trying to figure out the tropical body plan stuff.
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Why is it so hard to just accept that medium to dark brown skin people are the ORIGINAL inhabitants of the Nile Valley. It is NONSENSE to act as if there is SOME OTHER description for the ORIGINAL inhabitants of this region...
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Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
I really truley think you Afrocentrics are hiding something and I just haven't been able to pin-point it because as I have said I am not that knowledgable about anthropology.
That doesn't stop my intelligence and intuition that something is fishy here.
Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks".
If you don't want to Doug than just say you don't want to don't ask me questions because that tells me you are evading.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
I really truley think you Afrocentrics are hiding something and I just haven't been able to pin-point it because as I have said I am not that knowledgable about anthropology.
That doesn't stop my intelligence and intuition that something is fishy here.
Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks".
If you don't want to Doug than just say you don't want to don't ask me questions because that tells me you are evading.
But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? Can you please tell me why Africans born in Africa with AFRICAN blood would NOT look like OTHER AFRICANS and share FEATURES with Africans, which includes DARK SKIN? Are you on the same planet or are you on Mars, thinking that Egyptians were NOT Africans? Given all of the EVIDENCE showing that the Egyptians WERE AFRICANS and LIKE OTHER AFRICANS, I think it should be viewed as NONSENSE that they would look like ANYTHING ELSE other than Africans.
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quote: But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? -- Doug M
I think the obsession is with what he perceives to be afrocentrism, and proving them wrong about AE being an african(black) civilization.
Apparently, Vida isn't aware that the late Dr. Diop had attempted to perform melanin tests on the bones but his access was blocked. Such tests would be icing on the cake and only serve to silence the most committed skeptics.
Sometimes, however, I think no amount of evidence would satisfy some people.
Posts: 74 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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*sigh* It is only only inevitable that a thread having for its title, "race of ancient Egyptians" would go on pages later with the same nonsense that has been refuted millions of times before.
quote:Originally posted by Celt: LOL...I'm actually working on a classic car right now and don't desire to get into with you.But it is nice to take a break once in a while and come to this forum for some amusement. Your desire to impose an ideology of what you wish had taken place doesn't do anything to enforce the real facts whatever they may be.
In other words, more excuses (whether real or not) for not providing us any answers. It's only expected, Hore.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Bullshiit these people dont look at all African you are just an African American that has never stepped foot in Africa and don't know how many damn Arabs and Indians are in East and the horn of Africa.
Dudette do you really think those haplomaps have ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD DNA TESTED?!?!?
I know you aren't this dense Rasol. Somalis have tons of Arab blood why do you think they hate themselves so much and Indian blood as well. There are millions of Somalis and not ALL of them have been DNA tested not even CLOSE.
You are going WAY over board with this new found toy of genetics dude. Give it a rest and think more sanely.
The only bullshit being spouted here is from YOU! YOU are the one who either hasn't set foot in Africa or has somehow remained confined to one spot to make such ignorant claims that Somalis (because of their features) are some how "mixed". You obviously need to get acqainted with the indigenous diversity of Africa. Also Rasol is not African American but African. He is also male, but you already know that and choose to demean him by referring to him as female (because you are continually frustrated by his intelligent answers while all you offer is stupidity). LOL
But then again what do I excpect from a guy who says Cyrus the Great was a religious messiah figure comparable to Osiris or Jesus, or the fact that you cannot accept that 'black' is a reference to skin color which is why people from India who are the same complexion as those from Nigeria are still 'black'. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: ^^^this is a good post, but a lot of people would say alot of the images look non-black especially all the whitish-yellow and yellow paintings of people.
First of all, there are no "whitish-yellow" paintings, unless you are referring to portraits where the paint is whethered away (?).
Second, "yellow" was usually (but not always) used for females as a kind of symbolic convention. That does not mean that was their true color, as many women in ancient Southern European art were portrayed as stark white in contrast to the dark men.
quote:And they could be proto-non blacks due to evolution etc.
Ridiculous. All non-blacks appeared outside of Africa-- particularly north of the tropical latitudes. Egypt is in Africa in a subtropical to tropical area.
quote:I am still undecided I am trying to figure out the tropical body plan stuff.
What is there to "figure out". Tropical body plan is when the body is structured in a way to dissipate heat like long limbs to torso body proportions etc. Peoples adapted to a tropical climate have such body types, especially in areas with lots of sun exposure. Thus people from the Sahel to Sudan and even Somalia have what is known as extra-tropical body plans (once called "super-negroid build" by scientists).
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
True, but we have plenty of evidence from artwork showing the Egyptians true color (as has been presented in this thread). Unless you are denial of that also.
quote:I really truley think you Afrocentrics are hiding something and I just haven't been able to pin-point it because as I have said I am not that knowledgable about anthropology.
LMAO Not all of us here are even of African ancestry, let alone "afrocentrics". And no one is "hiding" anything. On the contrary, we have been pretty open with information are constantly providing facts and evidence.
I really think your mind isn't comprehending anything we tell you though, which is why you haven't been to pin-point anything and are not knowledgeable at all in anything, not Africa or religion.
quote:That doesn't stop my intelligence and intuition that something is fishy here.
That's the problem, you seem to have no intelligence or intuition. And what's fishy is your claim of being a person of African descent.
quote:Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks".
I have a coply of the Gay Robins and Schute study in my pc, but unfortunately I'm away from home right now.
posted
I'd think it logical to assume that people adapted(skeletally) to tropical environments are more than likely to have dark skin pigment approaching those of other adjacent populations in the tropics(especially as it concerns Africa).. It may not be definitive, but it can and should be used as a line of evidence to assess the probability.. The fact that Brace seems to concur(according to Rasol) demonstrates this..
quote:Originally posted by songhai:
quote: But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? -- Doug M
I think the obsession is with what he perceives to be afrocentrism, and proving them wrong about AE being an african(black) civilization.
Apparently, Vida isn't aware that the late Dr. Diop had attempted to perform melanin tests on the bones but his access was blocked. Such tests would be icing on the cake and only serve to silence the most committed skeptics.
Sometimes, however, I think no amount of evidence would satisfy some people.
Actually, I believe Diop performed a series of tests on Dynastic mummies by way of the epidermis. His conclusions were suggestive of a melanin level consistent with those of tropical Africa and inconsistent with what is commonly observed among those of European ancestry.
Criticisms vary I guess.. Here is one critique from a French Bioanthropologist that I got from the Nile Valley forum..
quote:"thus the use of an apparatus of spectrophotometry to measure the cutaneous melanin is ancient among the anthropologists (Harrison and Owen 1956), and to claim the histological search for this melanin on the mummies has been proposed for a long time (Ruffer 1909, Simandl 1928), although it is technically difficult [... ] the skin of the mummies is often deteriorated by the caustic baths of natron, and by the bitumen coating which gives them this black colour that does not owe anything to the pigmentation. Since all the human populations synthesize melanin(only the fine provision of the grains of pigments or mélanosomes is variable), it would be necessary to practise studies in electronic microscopy which, to my knowledge, have never been done, and to choose a wide range of human skins at various stages of tanning. It would moreover be necessary to make them undergo, so that the comparison would be valid, a mummification. Lam (1994, p. 10), would be in trouble to prove its assertion according to which "the analysis of the melanin of some Egyptian mummies revealed that they had the same rate as the current Negroes", this proof not being contained in the writings of Diop which it refers to."
However, Diop seemed to be aware of such criticisms, claiming that melanocytes penetrating the derm, at the boundary of the epidermis still gave the same results, regardless of the fact that the epidermis is most likely compromised due to embalming. But of course nowadays, electron microscopy would indeed be the most sufficient way to attain such results.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Now whether the above looks "100% negroid" or not is silly and specious. However, I will say that one person of Somali descent one time said that the features shown above and definitely the reconstruction of Fletcher's mummy look just like that of a Somali [East African (black)] woman.
And, concerning the Amarna "style" of portraiture, it seems that art mirrored reality:
This from National Geographic who say they may have identified Akhenaten's body based on the peculiar shape of his head, which is similar to Tutankhamen's.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
According to anthropologist Loring Brace, there is a correlation between between tropical body plan and dark skin pigmentation.
quote:Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks
Because dark skin is a component of a tropical body blan.
Ok now can you PLEASE show me what a tropical body plan looks like?
I am DYING to know.
Lol.... it's a dark skinned person babe, whos adapted, pigment and limb ratio wise, to a warm, tropical environment. Like Africans Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
I really truley think you Afrocentrics are hiding something and I just haven't been able to pin-point it because as I have said I am not that knowledgable about anthropology.
That doesn't stop my intelligence and intuition that something is fishy here.
Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks".
If you don't want to Doug than just say you don't want to don't ask me questions because that tells me you are evading.
But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? Can you please tell me why Africans born in Africa with AFRICAN blood would NOT look like OTHER AFRICANS and share FEATURES with Africans, which includes DARK SKIN? Are you on the same planet or are you on Mars, thinking that Egyptians were NOT Africans? Given all of the EVIDENCE showing that the Egyptians WERE AFRICANS and LIKE OTHER AFRICANS, I think it should be viewed as NONSENSE that they would look like ANYTHING ELSE other than Africans.
Oh no it is very loud and clear that Egyptians are African. The point of contention is if they are black because if this north African here:
..is E3b haplotype you can FORGET a black Egypt because this is no negroid NO SIR..YOU CAN PACK UP BUDDY and FORGET IT do you hear..FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: I'd think it logical to assume that people adapted(skeletally) to tropical environments are more than likely to have dark skin pigment approaching those of other adjacent populations in the tropics(especially as it concerns Africa).. It may not be definitive, but it can and should be used as a line of evidence to assess the probability.. The fact that Brace seems to concur(according to Rasol) demonstrates this..
quote:Originally posted by songhai:
quote: But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? -- Doug M
I think the obsession is with what he perceives to be afrocentrism, and proving them wrong about AE being an african(black) civilization.
Apparently, Vida isn't aware that the late Dr. Diop had attempted to perform melanin tests on the bones but his access was blocked. Such tests would be icing on the cake and only serve to silence the most committed skeptics.
Sometimes, however, I think no amount of evidence would satisfy some people.
Actually, I believe Diop performed a series of tests on Dynastic mummies by way of the epidermis. His conclusions were suggestive of a melanin level consistent with those of tropical Africa and inconsistent with what is commonly observed among those of European ancestry.
Criticisms vary I guess.. Here is one critique from a French Bioanthropologist that I got from the Nile Valley forum..
quote:"thus the use of an apparatus of spectrophotometry to measure the cutaneous melanin is ancient among the anthropologists (Harrison and Owen 1956), and to claim the histological search for this melanin on the mummies has been proposed for a long time (Ruffer 1909, Simandl 1928), although it is technically difficult [... ] the skin of the mummies is often deteriorated by the caustic baths of natron, and by the bitumen coating which gives them this black colour that does not owe anything to the pigmentation. Since all the human populations synthesize melanin(only the fine provision of the grains of pigments or mélanosomes is variable), it would be necessary to practise studies in electronic microscopy which, to my knowledge, have never been done, and to choose a wide range of human skins at various stages of tanning. It would moreover be necessary to make them undergo, so that the comparison would be valid, a mummification. Lam (1994, p. 10), would be in trouble to prove its assertion according to which "the analysis of the melanin of some Egyptian mummies revealed that they had the same rate as the current Negroes", this proof not being contained in the writings of Diop which it refers to."
However, Diop seemed to be aware of such criticisms, claiming that melanocytes penetrating the derm, at the boundary of the epidermis still gave the same results, regardless of the fact that the epidermis is most likely compromised due to embalming. But of course nowadays, electron microscopy would indeed be the most sufficient way to attain such results.
quote: I have a coply of the Gay Robins and Schute study in my pc, but unfortunately I'm away from home right now.
Here are two studies: Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions and Human body mass estimation: A comparison of "Morphometric" and "Mechanical" Methods
Although I doubt it will change your mind, loser.
Ok, losers are kids in their early 20's who spend their summers inside and online on a forum arguing with people about cultures that have nothing to do with them rather than partying and being obsessed with women as normal heterosexual MEN are in their early 20's(especially in college) *clearing throat*.
Now as far as these web links the first one needed a password to enter were you aware of this?
All I want to see is some comparisons of sub saharan African skeletons and Egyptian skeletons and non African skeletons to actually SEE for myself what this tropical body plan is.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Because there is no evidence of Egyptian skin color from bones Doug.
I really truley think you Afrocentrics are hiding something and I just haven't been able to pin-point it because as I have said I am not that knowledgable about anthropology.
That doesn't stop my intelligence and intuition that something is fishy here.
Can you please just show examples of this "tropical body plan" that is supposed to prove Egyptians to be "blacks".
If you don't want to Doug than just say you don't want to don't ask me questions because that tells me you are evading.
But if there is no skin color on bones why are you so OBSESSED with it? Can you please tell me why Africans born in Africa with AFRICAN blood would NOT look like OTHER AFRICANS and share FEATURES with Africans, which includes DARK SKIN? Are you on the same planet or are you on Mars, thinking that Egyptians were NOT Africans? Given all of the EVIDENCE showing that the Egyptians WERE AFRICANS and LIKE OTHER AFRICANS, I think it should be viewed as NONSENSE that they would look like ANYTHING ELSE other than Africans.
Oh no it is very loud and clear that Egyptians are African. The point of contention is if they are black because if this north African here:
..is E3b haplotype you can FORGET a black Egypt because this is no negroid NO SIR..YOU CAN PACK UP BUDDY and FORGET IT do you hear..FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!!
First, he is not Egyptian. Second his phenotype and body proportions are not tropical. Therefore, FIRST why don't YOU go find out what tropically adapted is and THEN ask YOURSELF why your post is absolute nonsense. If you are saying that Zidane is an example of a tropically adapted African then you are a retard, PERIOD.
I think you actually believe you are SERIOUS, which is sad.
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He is North African and why is his body plan not Tropical how can you tell? This is why I want to see what a tropical body plan is Doug jeeesh will you just fucking show it to me dammit!!!!!!!
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Vida, it is BIOLOGY. Humans develop features such as body plans and phenotype based on environmental characteristics. Tropical means adapted to the temperature and environment of the TROPICS, which is SOUTH of Northern Africa. The ORIGINAL POPULATIONS of Africa CAME FROM THIS REGION. They did NOT ORIGINATE in a TEMPERATE, meaning mild or cool environment. Tropical adaptation is responsible for DARK SKIN because DARK SKIN can absorb more UV radiation. Temperate climates produce less dark skin and EXTREME COLD produce PALE SKIN in order to counteract the LACK of UV. Coastal North Africa is NOT TROPICAL, however, it is CLOSER to a tropical environment than northern Europe. Such an environment DOES NOT produce WHITE SKIN.
Therefore, when one says that the ancient Egyptians were TROPICALLY adapted, it means that they had FEATURES inherited from populations who ORIGINATED in areas in and around the TROPICS. Africa STRADDLES the tropics and THIS is why MOST Africans are dark skinned. The point being made, therefore, is that the ORIGINAL populations RETAINED the characteristics of those TROPICALLY adapted, i.e. BLACK Africans along the NIle and in the Sahara from which the Egyptian population DERIVED from. This IS EVIDENT in the fact that MOST of the Early sites of cultivation and settlement are IN THE SOUTH and WOULD HAVE been populated by BLACK AFRICANS. Likewise, in order for PALER skinned populations to have BEEN PRESENT in Egypt at that time, they would have had to come from SOMEWHERE ELSE, with a more MODERATE environment. UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, there IS NO EVIDENCE of such a migration into predynastic or early dynastic Egypt. Likewise, Egyptian culture and civilization ROSE FROM THE SOUTH, which means CLOSER to the TROPICAL BLACK AFRICAN population from which these TROPICAL features came from. Now, Zidanae's features and those of MANY North Africans are PARTLY derived from the migration and interaction of Eurasian populations along the coasts of North Africa for the last 3-4,000 years. Therefore, you are comparing APPLES and ORANGES, populations with many Eurasian lineages versus ancient population with mostly TROPICAL AFRICAN lineages. So, put YOUR FACTS forward and stop ranting because you can't accept reality for what it is.
And, remember, NORTHERN Sudan is ALSO in North Africa and Northern Sudanese are ALSO DARK and also TROPICALLY adapted, meaning there is NOTHING SPECIAL about Northern Africa that STOPS the indigenous people from having TROPICAL FEATURES. Any trend, attitude and ideology that DENIES this is based more on SOCIAL attitudes and BIAS than BIOLOGY, which YOU won't get through your thick skull.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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^^^ I hear ya man. But since you are the picture genius(and you truely are) can you please show me pictures of these tropical body plans..get some pictures for me of either living people or skeletons and lets see the difference between them and non Africans and similarity to sub saharan Africans.
Pretty please with a fucking cherry on top!!
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Honestly, Vida, why don't you go find them? If you are asking me to find some black Africans in North Africa because you are too lazy to do it, then sorry, no cherries.
You need to stop PRETENDING that black Africans don't exist in or are not indigenous to North Africa, which is what it boils down to.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: ^^^ I hear ya man. But since you are the picture genius(and you truely are) can you please show me pictures of these tropical body plans..get some pictures for me of either living people or skeletons and lets see the difference between them and non Africans and similarity to sub saharan Africans.
Pretty please with a fucking cherry on top!!
Vida, you need to lay off the sugar. First of all, the topic at hand is a rather subtle anatomical issue that may be only as obvious with a picture as demonstrating to someone the difference between patterns of teeth when they smile.
The literature and the data, as well as its biological implications are what need to be payed attention to.
-- The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by **Figure 7** (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. --
Source: Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 121:219–229 (2003)
Figure 7
Interestingly enough, a well-known classical scholar did make similiar albeit condescending observations about Africans, consistent with the modern anthroplological concept of a "tropical body plan".
-- Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair. --
Source: Aristotle, Problemata 909, 7
Perhaps when looking at a tropical African you will see the physical distinctions Artistotle did.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: can you please show me pictures of these tropical body plans
Vida, The problem is you seek to prove Ancient Kemetians were white, caucasian, or anything else but Black Africans. That is why you can't handle the truth in front of you.
I hope this help, but highly doubt it will.
"Stated in the link below" LIMB PROPORTIONS Another morphological characteristic of modern humans that has been shown to be strongly correlated with climate is relative limb length. In accordance with Allen's rule, populations inhabiting warmer climates have relatively long limbs, whereas those in colder climates have relatively short limbs. This has been demonstrated in living humans in a variety of ways, including limb length over body weight, arm span over stature, trunk length over stature, and lower limb length over trunk length. The difference between the limb proportions of Africans and Europeans, at least, can not be explained on the basis of nutrition.
Interestingly enough, a well-known classical scholar did make similiar albeit condescending observations about Africans, consistent with the modern anthroplological concept of a "tropical body plan".
-- Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair. --
Source: Aristotle, Problemata 909, 7
Perhaps when looking at a tropical African you will see the physical distinctions Artistotle did.
Perhaps not.
Great post Musa! Aristotle made some very striking observations indeed. If this isn't enough, I believe the ancient Greco-Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus also made very similar observations during his visit to Egypt, in which he wrote:
the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look
Source: Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII, para 16 (23)
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doug M. I will have to agree with you on this topic the evidence is overwhelming! I think the Ancient Egyptians were a mostly black(african)(negriod) culture. As it seems to be Nubia(Kush) was Egypt(Kemet) local neighbors to the south. I see so many paintings and sculpture that Doug posted, and it looks like something "fishy" is going on as one would say "the proof is in the pudding".
-------------------- "Son of the sun god Ra" Posts: 197 | From: 5th Dynasty Abusir Temple | Registered: Jul 2007
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This pic of of Queen Tiye is striking!!! from the 18 dynasty. Posts: 197 | From: 5th Dynasty Abusir Temple | Registered: Jul 2007
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Zidane, in research parlance, would be an outlier based on phenopype (away from the mean) and at the same time be the mean for Algeria (the sample size) viz a viz Libya or Morocco. Location would be a strong indicator! Null Hypothesis: Does Northern ALgeria and South ALgeria show the same population demographics
On the other hand, he may share the same haplotype associated with someone like Qadaffi or Mubarak!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Lol.... it's a dark skinned person babe, whos adapted, pigment and limb ratio wise, to a warm, tropical environment. Like Africans
Tropically-adapted plan specifically refers to skeletal structure or body shape only and has NOTHING to do with skin pigmentation.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Oh no it is very loud and clear that Egyptians are African. The point of contention is if they are black because if this north African here:
..is E3b haplotype you can FORGET a black Egypt because this is no negroid NO SIR..YOU CAN PACK UP BUDDY and FORGET IT do you hear..FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!!
First of all Vida, my moronic friend, that picture you give above is that of of a modern-day Egyptian. The modern-day population of Egypt is quite different from ancient times in case your simple mind has forgotten about the historical immigrations and invasions in the past couple of thousand years. Second, that is just a picture of one Egyptian man. There are plenty of modern-day Egyptians who don't look like him, including those who preserve the original/ancient (black) look. Third, E3b is a genetic marking denoting lineage and says NOTHING about phenotype. Hence, there are 'white' Europeans who carrry E3b as proof of their African ancestry. And lastly terms like "negroid" are invalid because such racial groupings DO NOT EXIST!
No offense Vida, but you are like a small child who asks the same things over and over again. (Although even small children I work with learn much faster than you). Do you have a learning disability or mental disorder we should know about?
quote: Ok, losers are kids in their early 20's who spend their summers inside and online on a forum arguing with people about cultures that have nothing to do with them rather than partying and being obsessed with women as normal heterosexual MEN are in their early 20's(especially in college) *clearing throat*.
Nope. I spend time on this forum (as one of my hobbies) to learn and exchange information. The rest of my time is spent between school and work. And yes every now and then when I have the time, I do party, but I don't need to "obsess" about women because I interact with them all the time (unlike YOU perhaps, hence your projection of women obsessed feelings(?)).
A real loser is someone who continually asks questions that have been answered numerous times (due to lack of comprehension of answers due to lack of intelligence), and then when frustrated turns to ad-hominem attacks via name-calling and remarks on personal life one knows nothing about. LOL
quote:Now as far as these web links the first one needed a password to enter were you aware of this?
All I want to see is some comparisons of sub saharan African skeletons and Egyptian skeletons and non African skeletons to actually SEE for myself what this tropical body plan is.
Mansa Musa already showed you a sample (Thanks Musa). Both you and Doug demonstrate a LOT of patience to deal with children like Vida.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Ok now can you PLEASE show me what a tropical body plan looks like?
I am DYING to know.
This is what's called "Super Negro" Body Plan in anthropology, the most tropically adapted body plan, obviously the Europeans don't have it, but AE did have it: And the North African Zidane can't have it since he's most certainly European on his maternal dna as most North African leucoderm Berbers(there are ample proof in genetics. That's why the Somali, Tutsi, Southern Sudanese are among the most elongated and tallest people on earth, they are called "Super Negro" for that reason, they are the most tropically adapted and have sometime a very dark skin compare to other Africans.
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
Oh no it is very loud and clear that Egyptians are African. The point of contention is if they are black because if this north African here:
..is E3b haplotype you can FORGET a black Egypt because this is no negroid NO SIR..YOU CAN PACK UP BUDDY and FORGET IT do you hear..FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
First of all Vida, my moronic friend, that picture you give above is that of of a modern-day Egyptian. The modern-day population of Egypt is quite different from ancient times in case your simple mind has forgotten about the historical immigrations and invasions in the past couple of thousand years. Second, that is just a picture of one Egyptian man. There are plenty of modern-day Egyptians who don't look like him
Brief clarification, this man is not a Modern-day Egyptian. That is football/soccer player Zinedine Yazid Zidane, who is a French Algerian, so you're correct, he doesn't resemble your typical modern-day Egyptian(especially southern), let alone ancient Egyptian.. Vida is spewing irrelevant and foolish nonsense and doing nothing more than causing distraction..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Topic Closed
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there is a simple way of looking at this. (Me and my simple mind) The "Eurocentrics" want to claim AE; the AFROAMERICANS ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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It is only only inevitable that a thread having for its title, "race of ancient Egyptians" would go on pages later with the same nonsense that has been refuted millions of times before.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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