posted
All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features one might associate today with Australian aborigines such as large jaws and teeth and heavy brow ridges in conjunction with wavy hair. Indeed, there were some Western anthropologists who proposed that the 'Australoid' racial type was once more widespread than it is today and included North Africa and in some cases Europe! In fact some of these anthropologists proposed 'Australoids' to be the original racial type ancestral to all others. In the case of North Africans there are a few people who stand out in this, one in particular are the Ushetettas of Tunisia.
In a recent google search I came across one thread posted on this issue in the Anthrocivitas forum:
The poster even includes examples from the old literature that speaks of ‘Australoids’ in North Africa. We all know such features have nothing to do with 'Australoids' and racial groups don’t really exist, but what do you guys make of such a phenotype in the Maghreb? They surely do not conform to the 'classical Hamitic' type associated with North Africans let alone white Berbers. Do you think this to be a surviving remnant from Mesolithic or even Paleolithic times??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features one might associate today with Australian aborigines such as large jaws and teeth and heavy brow ridges in conjunction with wavy hair. Indeed, there were some Western anthropologists who proposed that the 'Australoid' racial type was once more widespread than it is today and included North Africa and in some cases Europe! In fact some of these anthropologists proposed 'Australoids' to be the original racial type ancestral to all others. In the case of North Africans there are a few people who stand out in this, one in particular are the Ushetettas of Tunisia.
In a recent google search I came across one thread posted on this issue in the Anthrocivitas forum:
The poster even includes examples from the old literature that speaks of ‘Australoids’ in North Africa. We all know such features have nothing to do with 'Australoids' and racial groups don’t really exist, but what do you guys make of such a phenotype in the Maghreb? They surely do not conform to the 'classical Hamitic' type associated with North Africans let alone white Berbers. Do you think this to be a surviving remnant from Mesolithic or even Paleolithic times??
I do believe these are "aboriginal" remnants of a population that existed in Africa and eventually left to make up a significant portion of the base population that later came to dominate parts of Asia and Europe. Calling them "australoid" is just another way of saying 'archaic' or 'aboriginal' as most early Europeans called the Australian aborigines the remnants of an ancient "primitive" form of human, with the emphasis being 'primitive' as a way of downgrading them and therefore justifying subjugation. But even in that racist way of looking at things, it implies this represents a very old strain of African genes and a very old phenotype that remained intact in Australia and parts of South Asia due to the tropical environment there.
I even made the same argument myself right here on ES and even used some of the same images a few years ago in one of the many threads on North African Berbers.
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posted
Note the following 2 old books about North Africans. The first is referenced in the threads posted above and the second is in French and talks about Kabylia.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: In fact some of these anthropologists proposed 'Australoids' to be the original racial type ancestral to all others.
. We all know such features have nothing to do with 'Australoids' and racial groups don’t really exist, but what do you guys make of such a phenotype in the Maghreb?
If you believe races don't exist why can't you figure out how to write a thread in that context?
People in this forum say races don't exist. They should then be able to articulate questions coming from that perspective, for example, not using the word "race" or groups of people with "oid' at the end.
Instead what people do is quote people who believe in race and then try to disown the racial element of the point. That's a bullcrap dishonest way of doing things. They can never express the point in a new paradigm And this constantly lends authority to old authors who believed in race always asking us to recall what they said. That is not forward thinking. That is not to say never recall what they said but the norm has become always recall their perspective, each and every time.
I will now rewrite the original thread removing the racial references:
Deracialized original post:
All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb reminds me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features one might associate today with Australian aborigines such as large jaws and teeth and heavy brow ridges in conjunction with wavy hair. Indeed, there were some Western anthropologists who proposed that this phenotype was once more widespread than it is today and included North Africa and in some cases Europe! In fact some of these anthropologists proposed this phenotype to be ancestral to all others. In the case of North Africans there are a few people who stand out in this, one in particular are the Ushetettas of Tunisia. In a recent google search I came across one thread posted on this issue in the Anthrocivitas forum: http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10848 What do you guys make of such a phenotype in the Maghreb? They surely do not conform to modern North Africans let alone the Berbers who have European ancestry. Do you think this to be a surviving remnant from Mesolithic or even Paleolithic times?? I do believe these are aboriginal remnants of a population that existed in Africa and eventually left to make up a significant portion of the base population that later came to dominate parts of Asia and Europe. This may represent a very old strain of African genes and a very old phenotype that remained intact in Australia and parts of South Asia due to the tropical environment there. I even made the same argument myself right here on ES and even used some of the same images a few years ago in one of the many threads on North African Berbers.
posted
^^ Why don't you worry less about how I "word" things and more about your livelihood as one of Mathilda's brothel maids, trick! The way I worded my post proves my point exactly. Racial groups don't exist and the people of Northwest Africa despite their appearance have no relation to Australian aborigines or other Eurasians who resemble them. My question about their phenotype is in regards to their immediate ancestors in the vicinity, so get off my nuts you silly Euro-slut.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I do believe these are "aboriginal" remnants of a population that existed in Africa and eventually left to make up a significant portion of the base population that later came to dominate parts of Asia and Europe. Calling them "australoid" is just another way of saying 'archaic' or 'aboriginal' as most early Europeans called the Australian aborigines the remnants of an ancient "primitive" form of human, with the emphasis being 'primitive' as a way of downgrading them and therefore justifying subjugation. But even in that racist way of looking at things, it implies this represents a very old strain of African genes and a very old phenotype that remained intact in Australia and parts of South Asia due to the tropical environment there.
I even made the same argument myself right here on ES and even used some of the same images a few years ago in one of the many threads on North African Berbers.
Yes, but your argument is WRONG since there is no evidence whatsoever that these people of Northwest Africa are ancestral to Australian aborigines or to the early Eurasian ancestors of these groups! That is what I meant by the erroneous use of racial groupings. If anything their 'archaic' features tie them to earlier populations in the Maghreb area like Jebel Irhoud. Explorer and others say that most Maghrebi peoples carry lineages from the Neolithic but then there is the presence of earlier lineages like U6 and L1 etc.
quote: Note the following 2 old books about North Africans. The first is referenced in the threads posted above and the second is in French and talks about Kabylia.
The old literature, despite some of its outdated themes, still hold some value. The book's description of the Berbers is very interesting since it shows that Berbers are not as "Caucasian" as many Euronuts today believe.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
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posted
^ LOL Excellent take on how these Maghrebi individuals look like! Interesting how your choices consist mostly of South Pacific aborigines or admixtures thereof as well as South Indian and Australian aborigines. All these aboriginal groups of Asia and the Pacific were often grouped under the macro-racial group 'Austric'. But again, since race doesn't exist, how a population looks is often totally different from whom they are actually related to. We know that Maghrebi people share genetic ties with other Africans as well as with Europeans which is not surprising considering the geographic position of the Maghreb itself.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
It is not clear what ethnicities would comprise such an "admixture"
I don't know if that is the picture Tukuler is referring to but as far as what ethnicities were involved, Explorer put it best here when he posted the following.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ..The EpiPaleolithic Maghreb types had a separate phylogenesis from the contemporary Maghrebi populations. One is not the descendant of the other. **Saying that contemporary Maghrebi absorbed a small portion of preexisting elements**, is not saying they are a continuation of EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi types. It’s like trying to say that just because some Europeans eventually mixed with some American Indians, that contemporary European-derived populations in America must then be American Indians...
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If you don't have the book then wait and don't speculate.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Excellent take on how these Maghrebi individuals look like! Interesting how your choices consist mostly of South Pacific aborigines or admixtures thereof as well as South Indian and Australian aborigines. All these aboriginal groups of Asia and the Pacific were often grouped under the macro-racial group 'Austric'. But again, since race doesn't exist, how a population looks is often totally different from whom they are actually related to. We know that Maghrebi people share genetic ties with other Africans as well as with Europeans which is not surprising considering the geographic position of the Maghreb itself.
The only one that looks African to me is the second one.
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posted
^ Yes but that is assuming 'African' entails a specific type exclusive of all the others.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes but that is assuming 'African' entails a specific type exclusive of all the others.
Even the second picture could be argued as looking like a non-African aboriginal.
^Yes I see the second pic as a specific type that excludes the other pics. The second pic when in comparison to the others look African to me. Even with the comparison you gave above I still swing African looking. It's my opinion not a fact.
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posted
^ Of course, which is exactly why phenotypic groupings or 'races' are subjective.
But getting back to the issue, does anyone know if there are studies that make a comparison between contemporary Maghrebi populations or individuals within the populations and Maghrebi populations of the Epipaleolithic or earlier?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
Will looking for the book, you've mentioned, I found this book. I never read it thou.
quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: Do these people carry A?
What do you mean by "A"?? mitochondrial hg or Y-chromosomal? Either way, these people carry lineages typical of the Maghreb. In the Y-chromosome, is mostly E1b1b (E-M81), J1 (M267), and a little R1b. The mitochondrial lineages are much more diverse. hg H, HV0, HV, R0, J associated with Europe and U as well as M1 typically associated with the 'Near East' though there's debate they could be African and L0-L5 which are typically African.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: Do these people carry A?
What do you mean by "A"?? mitochondrial hg or Y-chromosomal? Either way, these people carry lineages typical of the Maghreb. In the Y-chromosome, is mostly E1b1b (E-M81), J1 (M267), and a little R1b. The mitochondrial lineages are much more diverse. hg H, HV0, HV, R0, J associated with Europe and U as well as M1 typically associated with the 'Near East' though there's debate they could be African and L0-L5 which are typically African.
Y-DNA.
Y-DNA A arose in Northwest Africa and some Berber groups STILL carry it...
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That's news to me. Where did you hear that??
I know I shouldn't be using Wikipedia, but...
"Haplogroup A1a-M31 also has been found in 3% (2/64) of a sample of Berbers from Morocco[12] and 2.3% (1/44) of a sample of unspecified ethnic affiliation from Mali."
A arose in Northwest Africa in the first place. And some Egyptian males carry A.
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posted
^^^^^ footnote [12] A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes (2002)
the article is quoted in my thread about that article:
Also a notable Djehutie quote for the same thread:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It's even worse than that. 'Lioness' a.k.a. 1Arm is an Arabized northern Sudanese who believes that nothing good can come from 'pure' black Africans. They have to be mixed in order for them to be intelligent enough to create civilization or for them to be beautiful. This is the same pyschotic mentality of those committing genocide in Darfur. It's a shame really.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features one might associate today with Australian aborigines such as large jaws and teeth and heavy brow ridges in conjunction with wavy hair. Indeed, there were some Western anthropologists who proposed that the 'Australoid' racial type was once more widespread than it is today and included North Africa and in some cases Europe! In fact some of these anthropologists proposed 'Australoids' to be the original racial type ancestral to all others. In the case of North Africans there are a few people who stand out in this, one in particular are the Ushetettas of Tunisia.
In a recent google search I came across one thread posted on this issue in the Anthrocivitas forum:
The poster even includes examples from the old literature that speaks of ‘Australoids’ in North Africa. We all know such features have nothing to do with 'Australoids' and racial groups don’t really exist, but what do you guys make of such a phenotype in the Maghreb? They surely do not conform to the 'classical Hamitic' type associated with North Africans let alone white Berbers. Do you think this to be a surviving remnant from Mesolithic or even Paleolithic times??
^Alleged "Australoid" features are within the range for tropical Africans,relatively speaking. Hanihara 1996 clusters "Australoids" and sub-Saharan Africans together based on certain cranial resemblances. They are not identical but there is a definite overlapping range.
And some data shows ancient North African types with cultural and physical links to Africans further south. If by a back-migration, the "backflowees" still resembled tropical Africans.
Pennarun et al say in the article that an Asian origin for U6 and M1 remains speculative. It is a viable origin hypothesis they say, but they found no clear evidence in support.
"A Southwest Asian origin has been proposed for U6 and M1 [27-29]. Yet, this claim remains speculative unless some novel “earlier” Southwest Asian-specific clades, distinct from the known haplogroups, are found in which the described so far M1 and U6 lineages are nested. Claims for basal mutations shared with M1 have recently been made in the case of haplogroup M51 and M20 (both East Asian-specific clades [40,41]): They share a root mutation (C14110T) with M1. However, one should be cautious with phylogenetic inferences drawn from these findings because this mutation is not unique in the phylogeny of mtDNA: it also occurs in the background of non-M haplogroups and therefore identity by descent within haplogroup M remains uncertain. Unfortunately, the sampling of extant populations of Africa and West Asia may not solve the question of their origin...
Assuming that M1 and U6 were introduced to Africa by a dispersal event from Asia, it would be difficult to accept their involvement in the first demographic spread of anatomically modern humans around 40–45 KYA, as suggested by Olivieri et al. (2006), [29] who associated these two clades with the spread of Dabban industry in Africa. It has indeed been previously suggested that the colonisation of North Africa from the Levant took place during the early Upper Paleolithic, as marked by the “Dabban” industry in North Africa [42]. However, comparison of early Upper Palaeolithic artefacts from Haua Fteah and Ksar Akil does not support the notion that the early Dabban of Cyrenaica is an evidence of a population migration from the Levant into North Africa [43]. Marks [44] also noted differences between the two areas in terms of the methods of blade production, further arguing against a demographic connection between the regions. Likewise, the new coalescent date estimates for M1 obtained in this study are not compatible with the model implying the spread of M1 in Africa during the Early Upper Palaeolithic, 40–45 KYA...
Our analyses do not support the model according to which mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 represent an early dispersal event of anatomically modern humans at around 40–45 KYA in association with the spread of Dabban industry in North Africa as proposed earlier [28,29]. A West Asian origin for these haplogroups still remains a viable hypothesis as sister clades of U (and ancestral to it, macro-hg N (including R)) and M are spread overwhelmingly outside Africa, notably in Eurasia, even though the phylogeographic data on extant populations do not present a clear support for it. /i]
[i]No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
FROM: --Pennarun, et al (2012) Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa. BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
ASSORTED IBERO/MECHTA AFALOU TEXT DUMP FROM WYSINGER LINK
"The Caspian population, as known from skeletal remains from the burials in middens are less robust, and more gracile than the Mechta-Afalou peoples though they are undoubtedly descended from the.. Not a litte body mutilation is to he seen. This takes the form of incisor tooth extraction (also a feature of the Iberomaurusian), skulls that were modified after death by sawing, cutting and drilling, in one instance to form a kind of mask or 'trophy skull';" --History of humanity, Volume 6 By Sigfried J. de Laet, 1994
and
"Almost the entire region may have been depopulated as a result of extreme aridity. The first sign of people returning dates to around 18,000 t0 20,000 years ago, Mode 5 Epiplaeolithic industries that continue into the Holocene without any abrupt change. In relation to the origins of behavioral modernity and the symbolism question, there is not a lot of direct evidence. If there was a sudden change in behavior toward the end of the Middle Palaeolithic, it corresponds with the complete disappearance of people. On the other hand, the technological norms associated with the Aterian undoubtedly point to the emergence of an ethnic identity that could be expressed in material culture. It was the first true North African "culture" in the full range of its anthropological definition." --P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
"Some researchers such as Debenath (1994) argue that the Aterian extends along the coast if Algeria and Morocco with sites decreasing in density farther inland. But Kleindienst suggests that this might be a product of the fact that most research has been done in the Maghreb. for her, there could be a link between the Aterian and the Lupemban industry of central and West Africa, where bifaces and occasional tanged pieces are present in other wise Middle Stone Age contests (Kleindienst 2001:6.9 Hawkins and Kleindienst 2002)." --P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
"The Aterian appeares to be a facies of the North African Middle Paleolithic and is characterized by tanged points and oter tools; bifacial points are known from some Aterian sites, notably in the eastern and southern areas, such as Bir Tarfawi in Egypt and Adrar Bous in Niger." -- Encyclopedia of human evolution and prehistory. 1999. Eric Delson, Ian Tattersall, John A. Van Couvering. "The African Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) sample, comprising material from Nubia (Jebel Sahaba-sites 117 and 8905 and Wadi Haifa) and the Magreb (Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt), is quite homogenous both morphologically and metrically. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 96. Issue 3, 1995
Ancient "Asselar Man" from 'North Africa' - Mali, shows some resemblances to nearby Africans
"The bones are those of a man of late middle age, tall (1.70 metres or about 5 ft. 7 in.), distinctly Homo sapiens but not of 'Mediterranean' type. From the shape of the nasal and long bones it is clear that Asselar Man was some sort of negroid. The skull is dolichocephalic and has a high vault, whereas the rather short face is broad. There is marked alveolar-dental prognathism, ansd the mental eminence is well marked. The teeth are large and the third molar well developed. There was avulsion (i.e. 'knocking out') of the upper incisors, an ancient practice. The nearest living type to Asselar Man would seen to be that of the southern African Bantu-speaking peoples." -- Alan Houghton Brodrick. Man and his ancestors (1971)
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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"how a population looks is often totally different from whom they are actually related to"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Middle East=> * Israéliens ashkénazes et samaritains * Juifs libanais et syriens * Juifs kurdes du Sud Est de l’Irak * Juifs iraniens * Bédouins d’Amman (Jordanie) * Kurdes libanais et syriens
Rh+/- system
Afrique:* Juifs d’Algérie, d’Egypte,du Maroc, de Tunisie et d’Ethiopie
Europe: * Juifs d’Europe
Middle East: * Juifs de Syrie et Liban, d’Irak, d’Iran, du Yémen, * Israéliens ashkénazes et orientaux,
ABO Quant ŕ la proximité génétique de la population noire de Jerba avec des populations d’Afrique noire (notre banque de données contient des informations sur les populations du Sénégal, du Nigéria, du Soudan, du Tchad, du Mali, d’Ethiopie, du Ghana et du Niger), il est surprenant de constater que seules quelques populations soudanaises et ghanaises sont proches des Noirs jerbiens.
Rh+/-
les Noirs jerbiens ne changent pas beaucoup de voisinage génétique entre ABO et Rhésus : ils restent prčs du Moyen Orient et de l’Europe du sud et deviennent proches des Falachas
The conclusion contradicts your racist position.Perhaps you dont read French but what it says is that the Black population of Jerbans carry genetic signature for Middle East and Europe.
Clyde Winters please take note of the Jerbians as you track the genetic origins of so-called European Y-DNA haplogroups. Your work on Haplogroup R and Cameroon is quite commendable already.
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
LOL! Racist clowns kill me with their bull sh*t. Blacks are the original population of North Africa. Period. No back migration suddenly came in and replaced the blacks of North Africa 20,000 years ago and suddenly turned them into all white folks. Sorry no it did not happen.
Notice that Djerba is the Northernmost island in North Africa, next to gibraltar which is why it was studied. But again, North AFrica is not simply the extreme coasts of North Africa. North Africa includes Sudan, Mali, Chad, Niger and Mauritania. All of which includes black indigenous populations who are not "sub saharan". But notice these folks are not included in any discussion of North Africa, let alone the blacks in the Southern Areas of Libya, Algeria, Morocco and Egypt who are the best examples of the original populations of the area.
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les Noirs jerbiens ne changent pas beaucoup de voisinage génétique entre ABO et Rhésus : ils restent prčs du Moyen Orient et de l’Europe du sud et deviennent proches des Falachas
The conclusion contradicts your racist position.Perhaps you dont read French but what it says is that the Black population of Jerbans carry genetic signature for Middle East and Europe.
Clyde Winters please take note of the Jerbians as you track the genetic origins of so-called European Y-DNA haplogroups. Your work on Haplogroup R and Cameroon is quite commendable already.
Sorry, but i speak french fluently. It didnt said that Black jerbians "carry genetic signature for Middle East and Europe". It only put in evidence a genetic proximity between some south european and middle eastern groups. However Black Jerbians are really close with some Ghaneans and Sudaneses groups because black jerbians descend from those people.
It is known that black Jerbians descend from slaves. The only native people of Jerba are the berbers.
You are a disingenuous liar girl. Read your own source again and translate into English:
population noire [black population]: Soudan et Niger
........
Rh+/-
les Noirs jerbiens ne changent pas beaucoup de voisinage génétique entre ABO et Rhésus : ils restent prčs du Moyen Orient et de l’Europe du sud et deviennent proches des Falachas
Here is Google Translator for you, Duncey liard. Click if you dare:
les Noirs jerbiens ne changent pas beaucoup de voisinage génétique entre ABO et Rhésus : ils restent prčs du Moyen Orient et de l’Europe du sud et deviennent proches des Falachas
The conclusion contradicts your racist position.Perhaps you dont read French but what it says is that the Black population of Jerbans carry genetic signature for Middle East and Europe.
Clyde Winters please take note of the Jerbians as you track the genetic origins of so-called European Y-DNA haplogroups. Your work on Haplogroup R and Cameroon is quite commendable already.
Sorry, but i speak french fluently. It didnt said that Black jerbians "carry genetic signature for Middle East and Europe". It only put in evidence a genetic proximity between some south european and middle eastern groups. However Black Jerbians are really close with some Ghaneans and Sudaneses groups because black jerbians descend from those people.
It is known that black Jerbians descend from slaves. The only native people of Jerba are the berbers.
You are a disingenuous liar girl. Read your own source again and translate into English:
population noire [black population]: Soudan et Niger
........
Rh+/-
les Noirs jerbiens ne changent pas beaucoup de voisinage génétique entre ABO et Rhésus : ils restent prčs du Moyen Orient et de l’Europe du sud et deviennent proches des Falachas
Here is Google Translator for you, Duncey liard. Click if you dare:
You are an unrepentant roach, who does not know how to read.
You sited sources that contradicted you, and when exposed you tell bare-faced lies.
When further exposed by the translation of your source you now deny your sources.
Did not the citation you posted above say that:
1) Jerbans are intermediate between Middle East and South Europe? See your citation again above. It is there for you in black and white, and translated.
What else now, oh you racists pussy hawking harlot, from the underworld!
READ YOUR OWN SOURCE OR STOP POSTING IN LANGUAGES YOU CANNOT READ....
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: [QB] of slave descent
then why is her hair like that?
Probably because she had arab/berber admixture. If she was not of slave descent, she was probably of nomadic descent, which i doubt because she lived in Tunis. Blacks of Tunis descend from slaves.
A general distinction is maintained between the Wargliyya who are the blacks from the southern Tunisian oases and who are considered more or less indigenous, and the rest of the black population, which is understood as descendants of displaced sub-Saharans, the vast majority of whom were slaves (Zawadowski 1942)
In African Americans there are all sorts of mixtures with whites in average 17-22% But you don't see this very straight hair. It tends toward afro or bushy unless they perm it. The girl looks Oceanic/Tamil to me with that hair unless it's artifically starightened in some way. Maybe she is part of a small ancient Oceanic-looking population of Tunisia
There is some mention here of Wargliya in French but I can't read it:
this is what wikipedia says on the demographics of Tunisia:
The majority (98%) of modern Tunisians are Arabized Berber or Arab-Berber, and are speakers of Tunisian Arabic. However, there is also a small (1 percent at most) of pure native Berbers located mainly in the Jabal Dahar mountains in the South East and on the island of Jerba. The Berbers primarily speak Berber languages, often called Shelha, or have shifted to Tunisian Arabic. Demographics of Tunisia, Data of FAO; Number of inhabitants in thousands. Nearly all Tunisians (98 percent of the population) are Muslim. There is a Jewish population on the southern island of Djerba and Tunis. There is also a small indigenous Christian population
quote:There were two distinct groups of blacks in Tunis, according to him: the Wargliyya,22 a term applied to blacks from the oases, and perhaps referring (mainly) to Ḥarāṭīn, and the wuṣfān (plural of waṣīf, slave), a term applied to the other blacks. The wuṣfān were organized in corporate fashion under the bāsh-āghā, who was in former times the chief eunuch of the bey of Tunis, also known as the “governor over the black skin” (al-Ḥākim fī ’l-qishra al-sawdā’).
22 I.e., from Wargla, an oasis in south-eastern Algeria.
As for the girl, well, MY OWN MOTHER has the same type of hair and she is as dark as her. My mother, who is often mistaken by the euro for a sri lankan/malagasy/comorian or whatever , doesnt descend from an ancient oceanic looking tunisian population (PURE BULLSHIT). Her roots is from modern day Sudan/south Egypt.
your link talks about the ouargla oasis (Algeria)
Anyway, Blacks in Tunisia descend mostly from slaves. Take it as a fact (IronLion). 1) Because im BLACK and FROM THERE. So obviously, i know what its going on. 2) Most blacks there, intermarry with each other 3) Most blacks there, know each other
Kokola you are talking pure B.S.
Look up Tunisia slave trade and most of the documented slavery in Tunisia was of European white folks. LOL!
Obviously you fell and hit your head if you are going to sit there and tell us that this didn't matter and that blacks in Africa are only there because of slavery but whites are indigenous.
Tunisians come in various shades with some being Jet black and others brown and lighter. And these folks have different features from the Africans further south, which is the whole point of the thread. Thee are black populations in Northern Africa who are part of an aboriginal stock who have features similar to aboriginal types elsewhere on the planet, like Asia in North Africa.
White people are not an ancient Aboriginal population in North Africa no matter how much you want to believe they are.
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Look up Tunisia slave trade and most of the documented slavery in Tunisia was of European white folks. LOL!
Obviously you fell and hit your head if you are going to sit there and tell us that this didn't matter and that blacks in Africa are only there because of slavery but whites are indigenous.
The History of Tunisia is subdivided into the following articles:
Outlines of early Tunisia History of Punic era Tunisia History of Roman era Tunisia History of early Islamic Tunisia History of medieval Tunisia History of Ottoman-era Tunisia History of French-era Tunisia History of modern Tunisia
The Atlas mountains and the Sahara desert both played a prominent role in ancient times, first with the famous Punic city of Carthage, then as the Roman province of Africa, which was known as the "bread basket" of Rome. Later, Tunisia was occupied by Vandals during the 5th century AD, Byzantines in the 6th century, and Arabs in the 8th century.
^^^Doug what was the demographics of Tunisia at this point before the Turks came in?
Under the Ottoman Empire, Tunisia was known as "Regency of Tunis". It passed under French protectorate in 1881. After obtaining independence in 1956 the country took the official name of the "Kingdom of Tunisia"
The Barbary pirates, sometimes called Barbary corsairs or Ottoman corsairs, were pirates and privateers who operated from North Africa, based primarily in the ports of Tunis, Tripoli and Algiers.In the first half of the 1600s, Barbary corsairs - pirates from the Barbary Coast of North Africa, authorised by their governments to attack the shipping of Christian countries - ranged all around Britain's shores. However though Tunis was a slave trading hub Tunisia was not a major slave trading country.
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Islam's Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora By Ronald Segal
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LOL I think Kokokola is being facetious. He/she knows that all these Berbers I posted are indigenous and live in rural areas that had nothing to do with any slave trade. Of course the Euronuts will claim any black person in North Africa or outside of 'Sub-Sahara' as "slave descended" but such claims are hilariously false.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: ^^^^^ footnote [12] A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes (2002)
the article is quoted in my thread about that article:
Yeah the same thread which I and others debunked your dumbass! So West Africans like Cameroonians and others of 'true negroid' affiliation are Eurasian descendants, huh? So what do we make of Jari's thread here?
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Why is slavery being attributed to the looks of these rural Berbers?? Last time I checked, Sub-Saharans don't have loose, wavy, or straight looking hair the way these folks do. I even cited sources showing how Westerners distinguished them from Sub-Saharans in physical appearance. Even Bettyboo says they look more Australian or Pacific aborigine than 'Sub-Saharan'. Obviously the 'Sub-Saharan slave ancestry' is an invalid and I dare say pathetic attempt to explain these groups. As I stated, these folks likely represent aboriginal peoples of the area.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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cacakala alias casserites and the laughing hyena,why don't this hybrid people accept the truth they came from the dark races.
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I wonder why fatheadbonkers avoids this thread? Could it be because it refutes his nutty racialist claims? Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
OK here it is (finally)
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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^ Wow. Thanks for the picture Tukuler. I do find it fascinating from an anthropological standpoint (and not the dehumanizing way racist Western 'experts' are often guilty of). Do you know what area that woman is from and what ethnic group or tribe she is part of??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The lady's an Ait Mgoum from the Moroccan Atlas Valley of Roses iirc.
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Interesting how your choices consist mostly of South Pacific aborigines or admixtures thereof as well as South Indian and Australian aborigines. All these aboriginal groups of Asia and the Pacific were often grouped under the macro-racial group 'Austric'. But again, since race doesn't exist, how a population looks is often totally different from whom they are actually related to. We know that Maghrebi people share genetic ties with other Africans as well as with Europeans which is not surprising considering the geographic position of the Maghreb itself.
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