quote:

---

And the second king of Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus [Ptolemy II] by name, as Ptolemy Euergetes relates in the third book of his Commentaries, had a great many mistresses,- namely, Didyme, who was a native of the country, and very beautiful; and Bilistiche; and, besides them, Agathocleia, and Stratonice, who had a great monument on the sea-shore, near Eleusis; and Myrtiŏn, and a great many more; as he was a man excessively addicted to amatory pleasures.

---

quote:

---

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

---

quote:

---

In the ordinary way skin black as coal might be thought to
suggest a negro: a Nubian, say, or Ethiopian. But (as our own
use of the word illustrates) when applied to skin colouring,
black is a very relative term, normally implying no more than
skin significantly darker than the speaker's. Can the name help?
Didyme is not an uncommon name, but it is above all an
*Egyptian name.* 3 Preisigke's Namenbuch (1922) cites well over
one hundred undifferentiated examples of Didymos/Didyme; 4

When we encounter a dark-skinned Didyme in a Hellenistic
epigram, we have every right to expect an Egyptian...

Can we identify such a
woman? It seems not to have been noticed that Ptolemy
Philadelphus had a mistress called Didyme, "one of the native
women" ...... The source is the
Memoirs of the king's great-great-grandson, Ptolemy Euergetes
11. 16 In the mouth of a Ptolemaic king, very conscious of his
Macedonian blood, "native" clearly means Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

The Egyptians carefully distinguished themselves from their
darker Nubian and Ethiopian neighbors in their art.8 But to the
Greeks the Egyptians had always seemed dark-skinned. 9 A
number of texts spell out the difference fairly precisely. For
example, Achilles Tatius describes Nilotic pirates as "darkskinned,
though not absolutely black like an Indian, but more
like a half-caste Ethiopian, .10 Particularly
explicit is the description in the probably second-century Acts
of Peter of a demonic female as "a pure Ethiopian, not Egyptian
but completely black. , 11 Inside Egypt skin colour was naturally
an important identifying characteristic, and personal descriptions
in official documents regularly specify whether an
individual is dark- or light-skinned. 12

---

quote:

---

simply call Egyptians "black" or "dark." Herodotus, for example,
uses "μελαγχροε" (2.104). To the Greek Ammianus
(22.16.23) Aegyptii plurique subfusculi sunt et atrati. The Ps.-
Aristotelian Physiognomonica classifies the Egyptians together
with the Ethiopians as (άγάν μέλανες), a sign (the writer alleges)
of cowardice.13 In Aeschylus, the Danaids refer to themselves
as(μελανθές ήλιόκτυπου γένος).
14 In the anonymous fragment(...), "make Egyptian" means "make
dark." To judge by the titles of numerous lost plays, Athenian
audiences were fascinated by stories of Egypt, and it is likely
that Egyptians were distinguished from Greeks on stage by
appropriately painted masks, just as black and white complexions
are clearly differentiated in Greek vase painting.15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

How would are they going through tortuous loops if the sources
referenced above in part, do suggest some Kushite ancestry?

[2] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f; Asclepiades, Anthologia Palatina 5.210. The Didyme of Asclepiades' epigram is not certainly the mistress of Ptolemy II, but the proposal to identify them seems very plausible. Because Asclepiades calls her "black" and compares her colour to coal, S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king. As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

How would are they going through tortuous loops if the sources
referenced above in part, do suggest some Kushite ancestry?

[2] Memoirs of Ptolemy VIII, quoted in Athenaeus 13.576e-f; Asclepiades, Anthologia Palatina 5.210. The Didyme of Asclepiades' epigram is not certainly the mistress of Ptolemy II, but the proposal to identify them seems very plausible. Because Asclepiades calls her "black" and compares her colour to coal, S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king. As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

---

The *loops* being the automatic equation of blackness with Kushite (and more importantly non-Egyptian ancestry), as if the AE were not black themselves. Same thing when they make sensationalist crap like that "Black Pharaohs" documentary. Nubia/Kush's uncontestable blackness is used against the notion of Egypt's indigenous citizenry being black. Both Snowden and Lefkowitz try and pull this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.

---

I think in the classical world, strangely enough, it commonly accepted that Greeks and Romans classified Egyptians as black. It is only modern day Europeans who seem to be confused here. One of the more popular myths of Ancient Greece was that of Busiris, a mythical King of Egypt, killed by Hercules/Heracles. And he was often portrayed as a stereotypical "negroid", even caricatured.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

^ I don't Understand this concept "Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin." ...So no matter how black an Egyptian is, they'll never be classified as "deep black" lol what? The reason to speculate Didyme wass Nubian is the same reason it was speculated that people like Maherperi & the whole Armana Bunch were "Nubian" ..it's almost laughable imo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by africurious:

Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.

---

quote:

---

Snowden may be black but he has a track record of racist interpretations. He should be treated with the same caution as any other racist scholar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by africurious:
[qb]
Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.

---

quote:

---

---

I think this is the image of the Black Hercules, portrayed even with what looks like kinky hair:

 

---

Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by africurious:

Hercules was also often depicted with "negroid" features but this is less commented on by scholars. In fact I saw in a book once where a depiction of busiris was being discussed, noting how Busiris was depicted as a negroid but the author failed to point out the same in Hercules who was depicted similarly. Many scholars will ignore reality if it goes against their firmly held preconceived notions. Hence, the bs about Didyme.

---

I don't know about Herakles depicted as "negroid", but in many descriptions he is depicted as relatively dark in complexion due to the fact that he is Pelopenesian in ancestry. Funny how people are quick to point out color nuiances in Africans but not Europeans. Even the Greeks noted a difference in complexion between southern Peloponesians and northern Macedonians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

[QUOTE][qb]Originally posted by africurious:
[qb] Snowden may be black but he has a track record of racist interpretations. He should be treated with the same caution as any other racist scholar.

---

Snowden unfortunately is himself a victim of the racist science of his time as well as the racist academia he made his way into. As a black man in the field of 'Classical' history his position was itself very precarious. Also considering the racial science that existed at the time, he didnt have much a choice but to abide by the concept of "true negro" stereotype and exclude any and all blacks who don't fit that stereotype as "caucasoid". Thankfully times have changed and there are white classicists like Dr. Sally-Ann Ashton who read the Greco-Roman descriptions of the Egyptians for what they were.

---

I wouldn't let Snowden off the hook so easily. There were other black scholars of his time who didn't buy into the racist crap they were taught. It was that he just didn't want to buck the system to secure his career, he was one of the proponents of certain racist teachings and vilifiers of people who said otherwise. Yea times have changed but only somewhat. Yurco, for example, is an almost current example of the anthropologist version of Snowden with the gymnastics. And i'm tired of still reading veiled racialist-informed genetic studies in current times. Love Sally Ashton.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ What you fail to understand is that it is convention in Greek pottery painting to have men especially in modes of action to be painted black.

Theseus slaying the Minotaur


And when I said that Greeks depicted Herakles as having darker complexion, I am referring to the actual legends and myths preserved in the written texts. The legends simply said he was of dark complexion and not actually 'black'. Herakles was of the Dorian tribe of Greeks that took over the southern peninsula of the peloponesus.
 

---

Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
 
^mode of action is cool and all but did you see mansamusa's pic with dark skin and the 'fro? The same fro' depicted on busiris's men (the egyptians)? Come on, man, I wasn't being that simple. I'm well aware that not every blacked out individual in such art is a black person. That's obvious. That wasn't what I was referring to.
 

---

Posted by Mansamusa (Member # 22474) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What you fail to understand is that it is convention in Greek pottery painting to have men especially in modes of action to be painted black.

Theseus slaying the Minotaur


And when I said that Greeks depicted Herakles as having darker complexion, I am referring to the actual legends and myths preserved in the written texts. The legends simply said he was of dark complexion and not actually 'black'. Herakles was of the Dorian tribe of Greeks that took over the southern peninsula of the peloponesus.

---

The image was depicted on the cover of this book:
The Classical authors who have reviewed the book all seem to agree that the Heracles depicted within that particular image was "Black". The cover was obviously chosen for that reason, especially when we take into account the title of the book!
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Come on guys, lets keep it in context. Africa is right next to Greece in the Mediterranean. We know for a fact that Africans were migrating from Africa to Europe from Greece and the Mediterranean for thousands of years. We see evidence in the Minoans, in the Etruscans and from the Greeks themselves in art, literature and culture. How often do we see "Aethiopia" in Greek literature? How often do we see Greek myths including figures from Libya, Aethiopia or Egypt? Who was Memnon? Black Africans are all over ancient Greek culture and some of their greatest historians openly claimed that much of their culture came from Africa. So none of this stuff should be a shock or really even that big of a deal. Note that two of the most beautiful women in Greek myth are Aethiopian women: Andromeda and Cassiopeia.

Most Greek deities, just like most from other ancient cultures are archetypes. Hercules is the supreme archetype of the hunter gatherer society. Hence he can be African or European as they were both hunter gatherer societies for much of their history.

Many folks are starting to get it but we who supposedly knew all along aren't.

Some images from a game showing black deities reflecting actual historical black culture and influence in Greece (From Magic the Gathering card game):

Ephara God of the Polis (Looks like Nut the sky goddess)

http://imgur.com/gallery/C3O4i

Sage of Hours (Looks like Horus, the sun/son of Isis/the sky goddess, basis of time/the hours)

http://mattstewartartblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/sage-of-hours.html

Curse of the Swine (Egyptian influence Greece... )

http://theartofmtg.tumblr.com/post/72614179096/curse-of-the-swine-james-ryman
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nobody is denying that the Greeks or other peoples didn't acknowledge nuances in complexion with Africans further south being darker, however where in the texts did it say anything about "deep black"??

This is the mental gymnastics that Punos_Rey speaks of. There are many Greco-Roman texts that describe Egyptians as being simply 'black' so if this Didyme woman is described as the same, then what makes her Kushite or un-Egyptian?? The fact that the Ptolemies mixed with native Egyptians is no surprise as can be seen in the skull of Cleopatra's sister.

---

I get that much of it, however from most of what I've read going back to the historians themselves the greeks were very definitive in ways which they classified race. If the subject had dark skin, they would be Indian or Aethiopian... If they have the characteristic kinky/wooly hair their probably Aegyptian/Aethiopan. Modern interpretations seem to add this dramatic element of "relativity" to maintain whatever preconceptions we're occupied. However it gets confusing, for the fact that someone could be flat out recorded as being an Aegyptian (by the ancients) for the simple fact that they were black, not tanned but black as coal... Us of today are debating whether the subject is an implant because of the physical descriptions of these people... It's a mess.

I don't recall deep black being used by any historian off the top of my head, but apparently the folks such as Snowden believes that the Greeks had a pigment grading system to which they check off who belongs to where by how dark they are... It's garbage reasoning, considering if that is true, it'd be widely inconsistent... As it stands now, there is no reason to believe Didyme was anything but Egyptian as well as likes of Meheripri and the Armanas.

And in regards to the Ptolemaic-Egyptian relations, yep I was think about Cleos sister when I was reading about didyme....who these people were is quite evident.
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
BUMP...
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Re-examining mythological, never a real live person, Herakles' ancestry reveals his Egypto-African line of descent.



Perseus is partly of Egypto-African descent
Herakles is Perseus' great grand son, and
Aithiop Andromeda's great grand son.
So, their son Electryon is half Levantine Aithiop
and the other is half 'diluted Egyptian' lineage.
Herakles is Electryon's grand son, ergo ... ?


First seen in this light when reading
Joel Augustus Rogers and Edward L Jones
in late youth. Then, as an adult vendor, selling
George Wells Parker,
John Wm Norris,
Rufus L Perry, and
Drusilla Dunjee Houston,
all authors from 100 years ago and essential to the
general topic, divorcing this aspect of Africana from
benign European ethnocentricity ("B.E.E. stings").


A people without history, a country, or a flag would
be a most extraordinary circumstance yet owing to
misplaced facts it is in this light the Negro is regarded.
The day has come however, for a fixed Negro status and
this must necessarily be based upon ancestry.

Ambitions and aspirations are inspired largely by pride
in our ancestors. Owing to a lack of knowledge or
source of information easily accessible we have remained
in ignorance to a great extent of the history of Negro peo-
ples. The average school history contains little or noth-
ing, leaving the Negro youth in the darkness of despair.

To-day things are assuming a new aspect and in order
to meet the new issues we must needs have an enlarged
vision. The narrow confines which have so long held
us have been outgrown.

Descendants of kings and princes and illustrious
personages we have been denied the smallest item of
their achievements, reciting ever and anon the glories
of other races, yet always craving tangible assurance of
our own origin. If this little volume of sketches tends
in any way to allay this longing we shall feel well paid
for our effort.

_______________________FINIS____________________________


HISTORICAL SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT NEGRO: A compilation
by Edward E Carlisle Josephine E Carlisle
Boston, Massachusetts
copyright 1920
THE COSMOS PRESS
Cambridge, Mass


- A luta continua -
- The struggle continues -
- The struggle is continuous -



NOTE:
Andromeda is another super-pretty black woman
same as Ptolemy's "Thomasina" though, apparently,
the latter escaped the wrath of jealous deity.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Other Views of the Vase:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dandiffendale/30236068856/in/photostream/


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

The image was depicted on the cover of this book:


The Classical authors who have reviewed the book all seem to agree that the Heracles depicted within that particular image was "Black". The cover was obviously chosen for that reason, especially when we take into account the title of the book!

---

a customer review on Amazon:

The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity

2.0 out of 5 stars Also recommended is "Begrimed and Black" by theologian Robert E
Reviewed in the United States on February 20, 2018
This title is a bit of a bookish version of clickbait, for the book under that title does not address what moderns understand as "racism" at all. As stated by James Dee in Byrn Mawr Classical Review, "Alert readers will have noticed the absence of any chapter on "blacks" or "Africans," however those terms might be defined. Isaac refers instead to the well-known works of Frank Snowden, Lloyd Thompson, and others, though one would have welcomed the application of his incisive intelligence to this often bitterly-disputed realm." Having read this book I can verify this--the "racism" Isaac contends to have been invented in the classical world did not focus on blacks (or even on skin color at all), as the aforementioned classicists have amply demonstrated in their seminal works on the subject. (Thompson's "Romans and Blacks" and Snowden's "Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience" Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks". Also recommended is "Begrimed and Black" by theologian Robert E. Hood) What's left for Issac is simply cultural prejudice, which he casts as "proto-racism". OK. But to me that is a very fraught linkage; white Romans describing white Gauls as "good goat herders" is hardly on the same level as literally demonizing an entire group of people based on the color of their skin alone. No, that task would be left to Fortunatianus, Bishop of Aquileia. His mid-fourth century work, later referenced by Jerome in composing the Vulgate Bible, is the very first example from antiquity linking dark skin color to innate evil. Therein, Fortunatianus declares the "dark men of Ethiopia" to be so by virtue of being "stained by sin"--and goes on to condemn the Jews as also, but figuratively, so stained by sin. Thus the linkage of dark skin color to sin was first introduced--which tragically persisted throughout the subsequent centuries of Christendom, even to the present day.

the reviewer recommends this book


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Getting back to the topic, I find it funny that whenever a 'Classical' (Greco-Roman) description of Egyptians as "black" is given, it is automatically presumed they were not true Egyptians but rather "Ethiopians" or Nubians even though nowhere in the text is this conjecture indicated.

Either the subjects described are dismissed as not truly Egyptian OR modern people try to dismiss the word 'black' as being used as a descriptor but instead try to translate or reinterpret the word as "dark" or even "brown" when the original Greek word used was melanchro which means black or blackened as in something burnt or charred and NOT merely darkened or sun-tanned which is what many Greeks especially in the south were themselves.

Aristotle (384 – 322 B.C.E.), Physiognomics-- “Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two.”
​
Lucian (125 B.C.E.), Navigations-- [describing an Egyptian] "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin..."

Ammianus Marcellinus (330 C.E., died c. 391 – 400 C.E.)-- "..the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny desiccated look"

Aeschylus (525/524 – 456/455 B.C.E.) [when describing the Egyptians] "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics."

Appollodorus (180 B.C.E. – after 120 B.C.E.)--"Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself"

Even the Greek myth of Phaethon nearly crashing the chariot of the sun into the southern lands i.e. lands south of Thalassa (the Mediterranean) as the reason why the peoples of the continent of Libya (Africa) including Egypt and Aethiopia had melanchroe/black skin because they were scorched by the sun.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nodnarb:

I learned about this character from Ptolemaic Egyptian history this very morning.

Didyme, a beautiful Egyptian mistress of Ptolemy II

The Greek writer Athenaeus quotes Ptolemy VIII's memoirs as saying:

quote:

---

And the second king of Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus [Ptolemy II] by name, as Ptolemy Euergetes relates in the third book of his Commentaries, had a great many mistresses,- namely, Didyme, who was a native of the country, and very beautiful; and Bilistiche; and, besides them, Agathocleia, and Stratonice, who had a great monument on the sea-shore, near Eleusis; and Myrtiŏn, and a great many more; as he was a man excessively addicted to amatory pleasures.

---

And in 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, we have Asclepiades saying about Didyme:

quote:

---

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

---

(We could argue forever about what the Greeks meant by "black", but I thought the coal analogy was interesting insofar as it provided clearer visual imagery of how dark she would have been.)

Not much more info about her has survived, I'm afraid. But a DeviantArt buddy of mine asked me if Ptomely II having an Egyptian sidechick (among several others) might have implications for the Ptolemies' dynastic purity. Most historians say the Ptolemies as a dynasty were predominantly inbred, but it seems their male rulers at least were willing to play outside of their "official" marriages.

Of course, whether or not the Ptolemies would have nominated any of their less "legitimate" kids as heirs to the throne is another matter. But if not, what the hell would have happened to the kids from all those sidechick unions?

---

What we know about the Ptolemies is that since the death of Alexander the Great and their consolidation of their rule over Egypt, they made their capital city of Alexandria a colonial city and forbade natives (Egyptians) from entering the city except as slaves or domestic servants. That some Egyptian women entered into the royal household as concubines shouldn't come as shock, the question however is how many children from such unions became official members of the royal family? The Ptolemies typically kept their bloodlines 'pure' by either marrying Macedonian relatives or by incest through sibling marriages being practiced across several generations. We know that the famed Cleopatra VII Philopator had a a half-sister Arsinoë IV who was a royal princess, daughter of their father Ptolemy XII Auletes but by an unknown woman was found to be mixed-race with her skull showing African traits. It's probable that Arsinoë's mother was a concubine yet Arsinoë was still made a member of the royal family so there's not telling how much Egyptian/African ancestry the Ptolemy family may have had even though they upheld a policy that in Alexandria only those who could trace Greek or Macedonian ancestry on both sides of the family can participate in the gymnasium. In fact as part of their chauvinist attitude, the vast majority of Ptolemies didn't even speak the Egyptian language and Cleopatra VII was the first known to be fluent in Egyptian and participate fully in Egyptian religion specifically the cult of Isis.

Was Cleopatra herself mixed?? It's possible though we don't know for sure since her remains have yet to be discovered. Some people make that conclusion based solely on the remains of her half-sister as well as the fact Cleopatra's own mother is not named in surviving texts and was presumed to be either her father's wife Cleopatra VI or some other close relative named Cleopatra.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Modern Egyptians, 68% African
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

We know that the famed Cleopatra VII Philopator had a a half-sister Arsinoë IV who was a royal princess, daughter of their father Ptolemy XII Auletes but by an unknown woman was found to be mixed-race with her skull showing African traits. It's probable that Arsinoë's mother was a concubine yet Arsinoë was still made a member of the royal family so there's not telling how much Egyptian/African ancestry the Ptolemy family may have had even though they upheld a policy that in Alexandria only those who could trace Greek or Macedonian ancestry on both sides of the family can participate in the gymnasium. In fact as part of their chauvinist attitude, the vast majority of Ptolemies didn't even speak the Egyptian language and Cleopatra VII was the first known to be fluent in Egyptian and participate fully in Egyptian religion specifically the cult of Isis.

Was Cleopatra herself mixed?? It's possible though we don't know for sure since her remains have yet to be discovered. Some people make that conclusion based solely on the remains of her half-sister as well as the fact Cleopatra's own mother is not named in surviving texts and was presumed to be either her father's wife Cleopatra VI or some other close relative named Cleopatra.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Interestingly Doc Ben(1971), of all people, posited
since Soter there was marriage with Egyptian women
and describes his dynasty as a "blood bath".

Curious? See Africa Mother of Western Civilization p111 ff
p112
p113

p313
p314

p342
p343

---

quote:

---

Personally? My thought is Ms Cleo was Greek w/no
(or very little if any) African lineage. I dunno
but pussy whippin and suckin off male would-be conquerors doesn't
seem part of any other African queen's military/diplomatic arsenal.

---

quote:

---

BTW she was conversant in several languages.

---

quote:

---

Just because I have kids on Eurasian mommies doesn't
turn my heirs on their African mommy into Eurasians.

African Cleo remains an ethnocentric wishful thinking will-o-the-wisp.
AE history is full of resourceful and dominant rulers like Hatsheput
and 'high priestesses' like in that Libyan dynasty before Piye's 'invasion'.

---

quote:

---

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument.

Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Race in Antiquity
Published 5/19/2009

---

.


=-=-=-=


Can somebody please vet the two pertinent words below for valid translation from the primary Latin document?





in keeping with my profile signature below re Africana
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

As usual, thx 4/t Classical Era background clarity.

now ... Devil's Advocate here.


So, Washington and Jefferson's yte legitimate kids are probably 1/2 blk cos
father sired mulatto bastard kids on no-choice-but-to-fuck-'massa' blk girls?

Does the same logic hold to judge Mai Iluma's kids on a Bornu wife
as 1/2 Turk since he had kids on a Circassian sex slave girl or two?

Logical probability or special pleading fallacy?

---

quote:

---

=-=-=-=
Ah, the poor poor Ptolemies

Greeks to Egyptians

Egyptians to Romans

Poor Cleo
a skilled extremely talented
and decent person a teen queen
adept at intrigue trying to save
and expand her decadent realm
vilified by Greco-Latin authors
mythologized by all ever after

---

quote:

---

=-=-=-=
Back before "Afrocentric" became the buzz,
the degreed ones were clear that "blk Cleo"
et al are not the concern of Afrocentrism.

quote:

---

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument.

Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Race in Antiquity
Published 5/19/2009

---

.

---

quote:

---

=-=-=-=
Can somebody please vet the two pertinent words below for valid translation from the primary Latin document?





in keeping with my profile signature below re Africana

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Djehuti we've known each other for over a decade.
We've supported each others' findings and often
supplemented each others knowledge base. So I'm
going to be raw (explicit and disregard niceties).


Which two words?
What? R u kiddin me?
Looks like someone didn't read the quote?
The 2 pertinent words about Cleo's colour.
What else?

---

Sorry, but I wish you were more specific as I didn't know you were referring to Cleo's description. I read only her "white breasts" and the rest about her white dress.

Though I don't see how this could discount the possibility of mixed ancestry.

Meghan Markle


Halsey

quote:

---

Oh yeah, there's them African servants one poster
surmised, but that's well over two words in length
telling of variety in skin colour and hair texture.


DJ, how can you talk your way around equivalancies
I've drawn for men of power with legitimate heirs
from wives of their own race vs bastards from
sex slaves. Why special plead a favored case in
the face of parsimony -- the matrilineity of the
legitimate is unaffected by their sibling-same-
father by mother of subjected race whether.

This holds water regardless if African potentates
with Turk wenches, Washington and Jefferson with
"Brown Sugar"s, or any Ptolemy with their African
concubines.

The concubine-mother cannot effect the race of the wife-mother's children. It's simply impossible.

This isn't intellectualism. We have hundreds of
years of Arabic speakers specifically choosing
each concubine from a different race so they will
have children half of that race. My black son is
neither probably or possibly part 'white' because
he has siblings who have white mothers be they
pink, beige, or 'olive'. This isn't sophistry,
I'm talking day to day practiced living reality
perhaps unknown to your average western[=white]
socialized person totally unfamiliar with, and
ashamed of, any but the epitomized non-Mormon
white Christian society one husband one wife
supposedly no-cheating nuclear family.

Socially recognized mistress, side squeeze, one nighter,
whatever do not and cannot effect the legal wife's issue
because it's not from any of their wombs. Hence popular
usage "My brother from a different mother."


Most of y'all just simply would not understand polygyny, less lone racial polygyny.
Djehuti, is this alien to the common man Pinoy family structures before the Spanish?
Are there families with some Tisoy 1/2 siblings? Does this make all Pinoy suspect Tisoy?

---

quote:

---

Her white breasts shine through the Sidonian fabric,

---

.
Show me any actual mulata or quadroona titties w/white breasts references.
Man please, you'd have to get to an octroona before any hope of white breasts.


RHETORICAL QUESTION: Do you agree or disagree with the following w/o any yeah buts?
On Earth as a rule with few exceptions
white women have naked white/near white/off-white pink breasts.
black women have naked drkbrwn/mdbrwn/ltbwn breasts ranging from charcoalgrey/brown to wheat.


[*] First read it as a youth and have always questioned it
until mid-life with heightened consciousness of AE as an African
black founded kingdom and civilization but a multi-ethnic nation.

One thing seems very certain about Cleo she was the Egyptian ptolemy
and I think her displays of Egyptian culture and lingual talents
grant her status a 'legitimatized' pharaoh-queen of Egypt.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Of the fifteen Ptolemaic marriages, ten were
between brother and sister while two were with
a niece or cousin. This meant that even
Cleopatra VII, the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt
and the subject of playwrights, poets, and
movies, was not Egyptian but Macedonian.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Ptolemaic_Dynasty/


=-=-=-=


A Macedonian woman I know clearly distinguishes
Greek from Macedonian. Having a Greek yaya she
wasn't militant about it and agreed to Hellene
cultured Macedonians ruling Egypt.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
edited and reposted below
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
Lucan was born sixty-nine years after Cleopatra VII's death. There is no way he would have seen her in person. Has anyone considered that he might have been taking creative liberties by portraying her according to traditional Italian ideals of beauty?
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.

He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.


 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.

He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.

He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.

---

Are you saying he called the Fur people Arabs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


<<Most of y'all just simply would not understand polygyny, less lone racial polygyny.
Djehuti, is this alien to the common man Pinoy family structures before the Spanish?
Are there families with some Tisoy 1/2 siblings? Does this make all Pinoy suspect Tisoy?>>

This is all dependent on the cultural dynamics of power and legitimacy. There is a difference between slave concubines and free concubines and especially those who may be of high status as the Greek texts seem to imply that the women in the Ptolemy harem were not common. And then there is also the possibility of full wife status as I pointed out the Diadochi did marry native women to establish their power. I don't see what made Soter any different and judging by the book you cited by Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan, he wasn't since he married a royal princess called Hadra. Cleo's half-sister Arsinoe showed mixed African ancestry yet she was legitimate enough to have the royal title of princess.

And yes, as a Pinoy I do understand because of Spanish colonization. Many a Spanish conquistador or Don had both native Filipina wives as well as concubines. Traditional Catholic and Orthodox Christianity while not accepting polygamy did tolerate concubinage though still viewing it as unseemly. How else do you explain the Mestizo class in the Philippines though not quite as large as that in Latin America for the obvious reason that the Spanish colonial presence wasn't as great in the Philippines as in the Americas.

---

.


Multi-tasking
Be back atcha in a bit

&

thx 4 an interesting and enlightening exchange
but then what else to expect? You get choice
not chance at a DJ Djehuti ES dance


OK now the back atcha

I was hoping for insight on sexual sociology like
Magindanao taking Mandaya as sex slaves, admittedly
a Muslim practice.

Looking for the practical more than the theoretical.

Perhaps confusion on my part stems from not knowing
the birth of Pinoy identity. When did national
consciousness embrace the multitude Philippine Is
tribes and ethnic groups. Are any indigenees excluded
from it. Does the Pinoy Tisoy distinction only hold
for diaspora? What defines a Tisoy? Totally foreign
admixture or loss of culture or ???
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
Lucan was born sixty-nine years after Cleopatra VII's death. There is no way he would have seen her in person. Has anyone considered that he might have been taking creative liberties by portraying her according to traditional Italian ideals of beauty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Logicians and lawyers both use logic only one uses
logical fallacies. One of which is to dismiss prime
evidence by attempting to discredit the 'witness'
so to speak. If not also a case of special pleading
we'll have to throw away nearly all biographies and
histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors,
won't we?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
I was reading this book like 15 year ago written by a Dinka. He was speaking on being enslaved and escaping from slavery from "Arabs". He went on to talk about how nasty they were and brought up other dark skinned people people in Sudan 'Even Darker than his own ethnic group' who were also being raided by Arabs.

He was speaking of the Fur in Darfur.

---

Are you saying he called the Fur people Arabs?

---

No, sorry if i didn't make that clear. The FUR were ALSO being enslaved by Arabs. But he noted the Fur were Darker than the Dinka.

From OUR standpoint, and the standpoint of many Westerners regardless of the nuance they have we likely see ALL of them as some of the darkest people on the continent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Logicians and lawyers both use logic only one uses
logical fallacies. One of which is to dismiss prime
evidence by attempting to discredit the 'witness'
so to speak. If not also a case of special pleading
we'll have to throw away nearly all biographies and
histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors,
won't we?

---

For fuck's sake, Lucan couldn't have been a "witness" to Cleopatra VII's physical appearance if he was born sixty-nine years after she died. I would be more impressed if someone who actually was a contemporary to Cleo described her appearance in any way.

---

quote:

---

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument.

Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Race in Antiquity
Published 5/19/2009

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK, let's throw away nearly all those biographies and
histories written by the Classic era Greco-Latin authors
per that same criteria. No? That's why special pleading.

PLUTARCH'S LIVES, into the rubbish bin.
He did not live when nor visit where
most of the people he wrote about did
so he's a not impressive non-contemporary.

---

That secondary sources are less likely to be accurate than primary sources should be common knowledge. A poet describing Cleopatra despite being born sixty-nine years after her death would be a secondary source. Someone who actually saw Cleopatra in person describing her would be an example of a primary source. Mind you, secondary sources aren't necessarily "to be thrown out" in totality, but surely you know why they are considered less authoritative and should be evaluated with a critical eye.

And, for the record, it's not even like I think Cleopatra VII had to have been of mixed ancestry. My position, right now, is that we don't know for sure yet. We don't even know whom her mother would have been yet. Pointing to a description in a poem written long after she died, by a man who wasn't even a contemporary, would be like me pointing to Shakespeare's description of Cleopatra as having a "tawny front" as proof that she was darker-skinned. Neither Lucan nor Shakespeare would have known what Cleopatra would have looked like from seeing her in person, since she died before either of them were born.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
I thought it was made clear by my examples of actress Meghan Markle and the pop star Halsey that mixed or 'biracial' people can have very fair/white complexions also!

Here is another pic of Halsey



Here is a pic of of actress Rebecca Hall who is also biracial.



^ Note her white breasts.

Hall's complexion and features are that she can actually 'pass' as white and she even directed an independent film called Passing for White.

Also take a look at this article: What You'll Never Understand About Being Biracial: Mixed-race women on what it's like to feel black but look white

So IF Cleopatra was indeed mixed her having a white complexion should be nothing unique or special especially considering how Northeast Africans especially Horn Africans who are mixed often take on the appearance of the non-African parent as was discussed before.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What? You think you talking to a clueless whiteboy?

Let me remind you I'm a redblack person (red nigger)
2nd generation fully born and raised in the US of A.
I have conversations and black experiences you never
can have. Neither you nor Brandon are any part African
or black. Fuhget it. No Asian or European can school me
on American racial politics or blackness just as no non-
Pinoy canput you in check over Filipino American realities.

I made clear what you refuse to accept. Actual personal
experiences with real live Med & Balkan women and their
WHITE BREASTS W/BRIGHT BLUE VEINS.
You just repost failing imgs w/o white breasts
beaming through white 'sheer' fabric as Lucan's
translator wrote on that pg img posted earlier.

Why keep racking up logical fallacies as if
stringing out enough zeros will equal a one?
Not Boolean.
Illogical, irrational, unscientific, insupportable.

Plus, outside imagination, no one's shown even
one reference written by African blacks of any
era of BEAMINGLY WHITE SHINY BREASTS. No
reply has followed my lead on that AE poem,
that'd be Egyptology.




Pass as white?

You mean white males (not just slave holders) who
fucked their own daughters and grandaughters again and
again then passing all "outcomes" onto the baby mother's
slave race is valid because the slaves had not the power to
protest, proclaim, and effect "Ah ahn, them's yo peoples!",
except to themselves.

But Ole Missy and Lillie-belle's babies by the slave
son, or even better, the grandson of her husband,
or his siblings, or her father in law, is quietly kept
part of the "'unmiscegenated' pure white race" since
she dare not expose she was fucking around. So, in
but a single generation that Africa mtDNA gets wiped
out, yet half the African autosomes pass along anyway.
This is why a pure lillie-yte from negrophobe Mormon
Utah Euro-American CEU sample set is an impossible lie
as shown here.


Actually black, just passing for white?

A total disregard of what their autosome profile
and genomic ADMIXTURE will undoubtedly reveal.
IE a European person with signs of African admixture.
In other words a white person in all likelihood matching
any (N)W Euro white person of unknown or hidden Afr blk ancestry
or matching North Med Euro white persons w/o recent Afr parentage.


Sociological "blacks" cannot stand in for
anthropological blacks in scientific study.

Some ppl agree a person with only 1 of 8 African gg-parents is a black?
Do you support this ploy designed to bolster white purity by shifting
even a person as little as 1 of 16 actual African great great grand
parents onto the black race?

I don't.


Abraham Hannibal's generational descendants, the
last not white just passing per American One Drop


Do no skim read as w/t Lucan. Please read carefully for retentive comprehension.




Only in America certainly not in Africa or elsewhere in yte world
whether they had African black slaves or not. Take Latin America
where accurate if poorly labelled terms clearly delineate a plethora
of ranges from African black to European white filled in by mixtures
of people recognized in like up to 32 categories (more if indigenous
American reds and their mixtures are included).

Shih, down in Jamaica they called Bob Marley, with
his perfectly negro phenotype mother, WHITE BOY. A
true mulatta has parents who themselves are "pure"
not one or both who are already highly miscegenated.


Reminder, the region of Cleo's paternal origin was
admixed with certain elements of 'Fulani' typical
genes. She could have micro-miniscule "black"
blood from that reality. But that includes
the first and every Ptolemy regardless of
sister-different-mother Arsinoe.


Something else you can never know or experience.
Walking to North Philly from Downtown one day on
5th St., I ran into a blk skinned man and his yte
skinned wife and their children. At the time I too
foolishly accepted that yte supremist One Drop
yte racial purity ruse.

Well though like me he was making the world
a darker place to live, that man told me:
"You see our kids? They not black. They not
white. They they own."

Hah, hah!

Hey, Uncle Sam! Up yours and your whack definitions
based on a slavery and its American social dynamics
you still refuse to come to terms with while they
continue polarizing the nation you mascot!


Back to Djehuti, you haven't posted anything in
depth about the Filipino sociology I asked of
you but you wanna school me on my race and the
supra-culture that surrounds my 'sub'-culture.
Better check yourself now before you fall into
the educating-benighted-natives syndrome of some
non-blx contributing to black related ES themes.
Like a Big 8 Afr hist professor who after a Nigerian
told our class about Bini, not Benin, history blurted
out: "Aw, that's what the British taught you". Such
privileged arrogance to know more about someones
than those someones do.


=-=-=-=


Now I've asked for the original of the Lucan quote
to vet the words white shiny but no one wants that
they just want a (mixed)black Cleo or bust.

Brandon doesn't trust Lucan because it goes against his
illustrated chocolate fantasies where "for fucks sake"
even Jewish TaMazight Dahya Kahena high up in the Djur Djura
fastholds right next to the Mediterranean Sea comes out

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=5#000223

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=3#000139

a provocatively posed spear chucker with the plump
negress rump of white sexual dreamland which is fine
for non factual historic illustrations but is a lie
distorting my African Jewish heritage.

I'm afraid Brandon's wailing against Lucan's penned description amounts to
no more than protecting and projecting this Gladys Knight looking 90% negress

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010376#000026

as the at least 50% Hellene Macedonian queen over Egypt
the same as he proposed Frank Zappa's pic on his Sheikh
Yerbouti album cover as the true authentic Hebrew type
no matter the Lachish portraiture reveal nothing close
to FZ or other modern day French Lebanese admixtures.


And I'd hire Brandon in a flash for scenic illustrations
of a book for young adults on African peoples, cultures,
and civilisations, provided he'd heed authenticity over
his own "creative license."


BACK TO THE EGYPTOLOGY
Meanwhile I continue waiting for Brandon to post
contemporaneous descriptions of Cleo. There was
only one author naming her who actually lived
when she did. Why are historians etc., only
using his few lines as all we reliably know
about her? Those lines don't tell us much
anything biographical more so than the
authors negative feelings about Cleo.


Lucan's good ethnology (again)

quote:

---

There were also a swarm of attendants, a host

of servants to the multitude, differing in age

and cast of skin, some with the dark hair of

Libya, some so tawny that Caesar declared

he had never seen hair as red on the Rhine;


some had black skin, woolly heads, the hair

receding from the brow, and there were those

wretched effeminate lads, who had lost their

manhood to the knife: ranked opposite older

youths whose cheeks showed barely any down.


There, kings, and Caesar, greater than they, were

seated. There too was Cleopatra, not content with

a crown of her own, or her brother for a husband,

her baleful beauty inordinately painted, covered

with Red Sea pearls, a fortune in her hair and

around her neck, weighed down with jewellery.

Her snowy breasts gleamed through the Sidonian

stuff, threads wound tight on the Seres’ shuttles,

that Egyptian needle-workers loosen and extend

drawing out the silk. On snowy tusks they set

round citrus-wood tables cut in Moorish forests,

such as Caesar never saw even on capturing Juba.

What a mad blind rage for display, revealing her

wealth to a general fresh from civil war, stirring

the mind of an armed guest!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

What? You think you talking to a clueless whiteboy?

Let me remind you I'm a redblack person (red nigger)
2nd generation fully born and raised in the US of A.
I have conversations and black experiences you never
can have. Neither you nor Brandon are any part African
or black. Fuhget it. No Asian or European can school me
on American racial politics or blackness just as no non-
Pinoy canput you in check over Filipino American realities.

---

quote:

---

I made clear what you refuse to accept. Actual personal
experiences with real live Med & Balkan women and their
WHITE BREASTS W/BRIGHT BLUE VEINS.
You just repost failing imgs w/o white breasts
beaming through white 'sheer' fabric as Lucan's
translator wrote on that pg img posted earlier.[/img]
I have seen plenty of Mediterranean women especially from the Balkans who have their own community in Atlanta, and yes many of them can be quite pale in complexion. I am reminded of Greek descriptions of their own women who are sequestered indoors most of their lives and have pale complexions. Can I find a picture of such a woman in a white dress with her white breasts highlighted through the fabric? Unfortunately, I'm not as skilled in image searches as Lioness.

quote:

---

[qb]Why keep racking up logical fallacies as if
stringing out enough zeros will equal a one?
Not Boolean.
Illogical, irrational, unscientific, insupportable.

Plus, outside imagination, no one's shown even
one reference written by African blacks of any
era of BEAMINGLY WHITE SHINY BREASTS. No
reply has followed my lead on that AE poem,
that'd be Egyptology.

---

Of course I never said these were blacks proper but people of mixed ancestry.

quote:

---

Pass as white?

You mean white males (not just slave holders) who
fucked their own daughters and grandaughters again and
again then passing all "outcomes" onto the baby mother's
slave race is valid because the slaves had not the power to
protest, proclaim, and effect "Ah ahn, them's yo peoples!",
except to themselves.

---

WTF kind of Craster from Game of Thrones mess is this?!! Not to discount such situations happening on slave plantations here in America but from what I've read even most racist Planters aren't as depraved although perhaps a few were!

quote:

---

[But Ole Missy and Lillie-belle's babies by the slave
son, or even better, the grandson of her husband,
or his siblings, or her father in law, is quietly kept
part of the "'unmiscegenated' pure white race" since
she dare not expose she was fucking around. So, in
but a single generation that Africa mtDNA gets wiped
out, yet half the African autosomes pass along anyway.
This is why a pure lillie-yte from negrophobe Mormon
Utah Euro-American CEU sample set is an impossible lie
as shown here.


Actually black, just passing for white?

A total disregard of what their autosome profile
and genomic ADMIXTURE will undoubtedly reveal.
IE a European person with signs of African admixture.
In other words a white person in all likelihood matching
any (N)W Euro white person of unknown or hidden Afr blk ancestry
or matching North Med Euro white persons w/o recent Afr parentage.


Sociological "blacks" cannot stand in for
anthropological blacks in scientific study.

Some ppl agree a person with only 1 of 8 African gg-parents is a black?
Do you support this ploy designed to bolster white purity by shifting
even a person as little as 1 of 16 actual African great great grand
parents onto the black race?

I don't.


Abraham Hannibal's generational descendants, the
last not white just passing per American One Drop


Do no skim read as w/t Lucan. Please read carefully for retentive comprehension.




Only in America certainly not in Africa or elsewhere in yte world
whether they had African black slaves or not. Take Latin America
where accurate if poorly labelled terms clearly delineate a plethora
of ranges from African black to European white filled in by mixtures
of people recognized in like up to 32 categories (more if indigenous
American reds and their mixtures are included).

Shih, down in Jamaica they called Bob Marley, with
his perfectly negro phenotype mother, WHITE BOY. A
true mulatta has parents who themselves are "pure"
not one or both who are already highly miscegenated.

---

Yes, which shows how 'race' is more so a social construct than a biological one, but what does any of this have to do with the Ptolemies who did not enslave the local populace or raped native women but merely intermarried with them or at least one or two and had native noble born women in their court??

quote:

---

Reminder, the region of Cleo's paternal origin was
admixed with certain elements of 'Fulani' typical
genes. She could have micro-miniscule "black"
blood from that reality. But that includes
the first and every Ptolemy regardless of
sister-different-mother Arsinoe.


Something else you can never know or experience.
Walking to North Philly from Downtown one day on
5th St., I ran into a blk skinned man and his yte
skinned wife and their children. At the time I too
foolishly accepted that yte supremist One Drop
yte racial purity ruse.

Well though like me he was making the world
a darker place to live, that man told me:
"You see our kids? They not black. They not
white. They they own."

Hah, hah!

Hey, Uncle Sam! Up yours and your whack definitions
based on a slavery and its American social dynamics
you still refuse to come to terms with while they
continue polarizing the nation you mascot!

---

From what I understand the opposite principle was at work in Africa especially in regard with the Arabs whose mixed children were not bastardized but were regarded as "Arab" despite their African mothers as a way of inheriting/usurping their lands and territories.

quote:

---

Back to Djehuti, you haven't posted anything in
depth about the Filipino sociology I asked of
you but you wanna school me on my race and the
supra-culture that surrounds my 'sub'-culture.
Better check yourself now before you fall into
the educating-benighted-natives syndrome of some
non-blx contributing to black related ES themes.
Like a Big 8 Afr hist professor who after a Nigerian
told our class about Bini, not Benin, history blurted
out: "Aw, that's what the British taught you". Such
privileged arrogance to know more about someones
than those someones do.

---

The situation in the Philippines was much the same as Latin America where Spanish colonists intermarried if not freely consorted with native Filipina women and their offspring were considered 'Mestizos' which was the same class in the Americas as children of mixed white and Indigenous Americans. These Mestizos had more privileged and higher up in the colonial hierarchy than pure natives. Not surprisingly their descendants today are some of the wealthiest families in the Philippines.

quote:

---

=-=-=

Now I've asked for the original of the Lucan quote
to vet the words white shiny but no one wants that
they just want a (mixed)black Cleo or bust.

---

I'll have to find the original Latin then, if I can. It's best to have the source in its original language.

quote:

---

Brandon doesn't trust Lucan because it goes against his
illustrated chocolate fantasies where "for fucks sake"
even Jewish TaMazight Dahya Kahena high up in the Djur Djura
fastholds right next to the Mediterranean Sea comes out

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=5#000223

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001659;p=3#000139

a provocatively posed spear chucker with the plump
negress rump of white sexual dreamland which is fine
for non factual historic illustrations but is a lie
distorting my African Jewish heritage.

I'm afraid Brandon's wailing against Lucan's penned description amounts to
no more than protecting and projecting this Gladys Knight looking 90% negress

---

LOL his fantasies aside, I don't discount Lucian's description OR the possibility still that Cleo despite her African admixture whether from generations ago could still have white white skin.

quote:

---

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010376#000026

as the at least 50% Hellene Macedonian queen over Egypt
the same as he proposed Frank Zappa's pic on his Sheikh
Yerbouti album cover as the true authentic Hebrew type
no matter the Lachish portraiture reveal nothing close
to FZ or other modern day French Lebanese admixtures.


And I'd hire Brandon in a flash for scenic illustrations
of a book for young adults on African peoples, cultures,
and civilisations, provided he'd heed authenticity over
his own "creative license."


BACK TO THE EGYPTOLOGY
Meanwhile I continue waiting for Brandon to post
contemporaneous descriptions of Cleo. There was
only one author naming her who actually lived
when she did. Why are historians etc., only
using his few lines as all we reliably know
about her? Those lines don't tell us much
anything biographical more so than the
authors negative feelings about Cleo.


Lucan's good ethnology (again) [QUOTE]

There were also a swarm of attendants, a host

of servants to the multitude, differing in age

and cast of skin, some with the dark hair of

Libya, some so tawny that Caesar declared

he had never seen hair as red on the Rhine;


some had black skin, woolly heads, the hair

receding from the brow, and there were those

wretched effeminate lads, who had lost their

manhood to the knife: ranked opposite older

youths whose cheeks showed barely any down.


There, kings, and Caesar, greater than they, were

seated. There too was Cleopatra, not content with

a crown of her own, or her brother for a husband,

her baleful beauty inordinately painted, covered

with Red Sea pearls, a fortune in her hair and

around her neck, weighed down with jewellery.

Her snowy breasts gleamed through the Sidonian

stuff, threads wound tight on the Seres’ shuttles,

that Egyptian needle-workers loosen and extend

drawing out the silk. On snowy tusks they set

round citrus-wood tables cut in Moorish forests,

such as Caesar never saw even on capturing Juba.

What a mad blind rage for display, revealing her

wealth to a general fresh from civil war, stirring

the mind of an armed guest!

---

.


White
snow
tusks
Cleo's titties

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
As usual, thx 4/t Classical Era background clarity.

now ... Devil's Advocate here.


So, Washington and Jefferson's yte legitimate kids are probably 1/2 blk cos
father sired mulatto bastard kids on no-choice-but-to-fuck-'massa' blk girls?

Does the same logic hold to judge Mai Iluma's kids on a Bornu wife
as 1/2 Turk since he had kids on a Circassian sex slave girl or two?

Logical probability or special pleading fallacy?


=-=-=-=


Ah, the poor poor Ptolemies

Greeks to Egyptians

Egyptians to Romans

Poor Cleo
a skilled extremely talented
and decent person a teen queen
adept at intrigue trying to save
and expand her decadent realm
vilified by Greco-Latin authors
mythologized by all ever after


=-=-=-=


Back before "Afrocentric" became the buzz,
the degreed ones were clear that "blk Cleo"
et al are not the concern of Afrocentrism.

quote:

---

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument.

Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Race in Antiquity
Published 5/19/2009

---

.


=-=-=-=


Can somebody please vet the two pertinent words below for valid translation from the primary Latin document?





in keeping with my profile signature below re Africana

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay this is one winding road you guys took me through. The topic went from Didyme a black Egyptian to Cleopatra's white titties.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Questioner is correct. The Seres were not Chinese or even East Asians but were a white Indo-European speaking people related to the Tocharians who were famed at that time for their fine sheeps' wool. However the Sidonians are famous for their 'sea silk' called byssos by the Greeks which was a natural polymer produced by marine mollusks and creates a glossy sheen which can be woven into fabrics and the Sidonians usually wove the byssos into their fine linens. So if that were case then it may not have been her actual bare breasts that was "white and shiny" like glistening snow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Slow down. Last post already clarified for you it's the garment's color that's white.

I'm saying these mistranslations are 19th century Eurocentrisms
* gleam =/= white
* snow = a fabrication, is not found in the original Lucan Latin poem.

---

quote:

---

The line in Lucan's poem following the garments
are explicit that the Lebanese fabric was rewoven
and actually begins with the word for thread in
the preceding line.

filo ,
Quod Nilotis acus compressum pectine
Serum Solvit,
et extenso laxavit stamina velo.

fabric,
which, the needle of the workman of the Nile has separated,
in the close texture wrought by the sley of the Seres,
and has loosened the warp by stretching out the web.

---

quote:

---

SIDEBAR:
Hey! Know nothing about Seres nor Tocharians
but does that relate to this Tarim Basin mummies
race controversy 'concluded' this season
in favor of Asian not European biology?

Though he knows a Seres people far up Nile,
this seres of our concern is Lucan's Serum.
If time didn't allow examining this from last post
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:id=sericum-cn
then try the short stack
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=serum&la=la&can=serum0&prior=pectine&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:alphabetic%20letter=S:entry=sericum-cn&i=1


This from Pliny? Is it more in line with your better known Seres/Tocharians?
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D20

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay this is one winding road you guys took me through. The topic went from Didyme a black Egyptian to Cleopatra's white titties.

Again, I'm not saying Cleopatra was necessarily of mixed indigenous ancestry but the possibility exists because her sister Arsinoe was. This fact along with the passage that Brandon cites is about their ancestor Ptolemy II having Didyme as a lover shows that the Alexandrians were not as segregated from the native populace as many historians would have us think.

We know that after Alexander's conquest and founding of the colonial city of Alexandria, the Makedon-Hellenist elites who ruled the city enforced a law that no natives may enter except as servile peoples to the court (either slaves, servants, or employees). This has lead many Western scholars to suspect the same type of Apartheid policies as practiced by colonial Brits under their empire.

However, the 'mixed-race' Princess Arsinoe who was rival to Cleopatra for the throne, as well as Dr. Ben-Jochannan's reference to the founding Ptolemy I having a native wife and his son Ptolemy II married to a native woman by the name of Hadra, shows they were not the anti-miscegenistic white supremacists that Euros were in recent centuries. In fact it was customary in those days to establish ties to a foreign land via intermarriage with natives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

DJ
pending Brandon's permission I think it'd be worth
the effort to steer this thread in the direction of
the moldy oldie ones detailing the African elements
in Greek people, culture, and civilizaion. Those old
threads are platinum mines no one's reading and bump
up won't do the trick to get those infos out for our
2020s audience. A lot there needs update too!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

I mentioned it in another thread, but I have a pet hypothesis that the Fayum mummy portraits represent a sort of "creole" class of mixed Greco-Roman and native Egyptian descent. A lot of them do look like they could be an African/Mediterranean European mix. I wonder if they would have enjoyed a privileged status over "pure" native Egyptians due to their Greek or Roman connections?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted here by Byron Bumper:
BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

The Roman period after the fall of the Ptolemies, the Fayum Portraits

http://fayum.wam-art.net/history/

Mummy portraits or Fayum mummy portraits is the modern term given to a type of realistic painted portraits on wooden boards attached to mummies. They belong to the tradition of panel painting, one of the most highly regarded forms of art in the Classical world. In fact, the Fayum portraits are the only large body of art from that tradition to have survived.

Mummy portraits have been found across Egypt, but are most common in the Fayum Basin, hence the common name. "Fayum Portraits" is generally thought of as a stylistic, rather than a geographic, description. The Fayum mummy portraits were an innovation dating to the Coptic period on time of the Roman occupation of Egypt from the late 1st century BC or the early 1st century AD onwards. This highly prestigious tradition of the classical world was continued into Byzantine and Western traditions in the post-classical world, including the local tradition of Coptic iconography in Egypt and then in the famous Slavic (Russian, Bulgarian) icons.

The portraits covered the faces of bodies that were mummified for burial. Extant examples indicate that they were mounted into the bands of cloth that were used to wrap the bodies. Almost all have now been detached from the mummies. They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Greco-Roman traditions than Egyptian ones....

Social status

The patrons of the portraits apparently belonged to the affluent upper class of military personnel, civil servants and religious dignitaries. Not everyone could afford a mummy portrait; many mummies were found without one. Flinders Petrie states that only one or two per cent of the mummies he excavated were embellished with portraits...

It is not clear whether those depicted are of Egyptian, Greek or Roman origin, nor whether the portraits were commonly used by all ethnicities. The name of some of those portrayed are known from inscriptions, they are of Egyptian, Greek and Roman origin. Hairstyles and clothing are always influenced by Roman fashion. Women and children are often depicted wearing valuable ornaments and fine garments, men often wearing specific and elaborate outfits. Greek inscriptions of names are relatively common, sometimes they include professions. It is not known whether such inscriptions always reflect reality, or whether they may state ideal conditions or aspirations rather than true conditions. One single inscription is known to definitely indicate the deceased's profession (a ship owner) correctly. The mummy of a woman named Hermione also included the term Grammatik. For a long time, it was assumed that this indicated that she was a teacher by profession (for this reason, Flinders Petrie donated the portrait to Girton College, Cambridge, the first residential college for women in Britain), but today, it is assumed that the term indicates her level of education. Some portraits of men show sword-belts or even pommels, suggesting that they were members of the Roman military.


¡It should be clear to anyone familiar with ancient Egyptian art, or rather yet Egyptian people that most people in these portraits are clearly a mixture of Egyptian and European!

BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
That the Fayum portraits represent a mixture of Greco-Romans and Baladi is pretty much a given. Even the Euronuts have long lost the argument that they somehow represent pure-blood Egyptians.

However that is an interesting hypothesis, that is the notion of a 'half-caste' class.

---

The one thing that gives me pause is JoelIrish's 2006 study on AE dental remains, which suggested that Roman-period Egyptians from Hawara in the Fayum didn't differ much from earlier Egyptians. I am not sure how much credence to give it though. IIRC, this same study didn't find a lot of differences in dental morphology between ancient Upper and Lower Egyptians despite what the cranial data has shown, and I remember Swenet mentioning something about North Africans appearing dentally homogeneous despite differing from one another in other ways.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Swenet is correct that one of the greatest traits that unite North Africans is their dental non-metric suite of traits. Despite whatever variation in craniofacial features certain populations in North Africa had their nonmetric dental traits is what unites them as well as distinguishes all of them from Sub-Saharans which again correlates to genetic findings.

I'll have to go back and read Irish's 2006 paper but from what I recall, his Hawara sample from the Fayum bore a striking resemblance to the Badarian sample.



I have to look into what exactly was the nature of the Hawara sample, did they include Greco-Roman/mixed elites or indigenes? Remember that the only thing separating North Africans from Western Eurasians is that the former shared many morphological features in common with Sub-Saharans so it could be that Greco-Romans who may already have North African ancestry from earlier times with this fresh new wave of admixture would look no different in dental features from say a pure North African.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
In Irish's 2006 study Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental AffinitiesAmong Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples he used 9 samples from Upper Egypt and 6 from Lower Egypt of his Hawara sample from the Faiyum:

The final sample was recovered at Hawara (HAW) in an early Roman period burialground for elite members of the Fayum Oasis populace(Grajetzki and Quirke, 2001b). It was excavated by Petrie (1890)...

Did Egyptians of the Ptolemaic and Roman periods differ significantly from their dynastic antecedents?
Again, more post dynastic samples would prove useful in answering this broad question. Moreover, any foreign genetic influence on the indigenous populace likely diminished relative to the distance upriver. However, as it stands, the lone Greek Egyptian (GEG) sample from Lower Egypt significantly differs from all but the small Roman-period Kharga sample (Table 4). In fact, it was shown to be a major outlier that is divergent from all others (Figs. 2, 3, 5). The Greek Egyptians exhibit the lowest frequencies of UM1 cusp 5, three-rooted UM2, five-cusped LM2, and two-rooted LM2, along with a high incidence of UM3 absence, among others (Table 2). This trait combination is reminiscent of that in Europeans and western Asians (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990;Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Thus, if the present heterogeneous sample is at all representative of peoples during Ptolemaic times, it may suggest some measure of foreign admixture, at least in Lower Egypt near Saqqara and Manfalut. Another possibility is that the sample consists of actual Greeks. Although their total number was probably low (Peacock, 2000), Greek administrators and others were present in Lower Egypt. Future comparisons to actual Greek specimens will help verify this possibility. Lastly, the Roman-period specimens are much more closely akin to the seven dynastic samples. Kharga and especially Hawara are most similar, based on their trait concordance (Table 2), low and insignificant MMDs (Table4), and positions within or near the cluster of 11 or so samples (Fig. 2). El Hesa is more divergent (Figs. 2, 3, 5); this divergence was shown to be driven by several extreme trait frequencies, including very high UI2 interruption groove and UM3 absence, and very low UM1 Carabelli’s trait. As above, the first two traits are common in Europeans and western Asians; the latter is rare in these areas, as well as greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1997).Like the Greeks, the Romans did not migrate to Lower and especially Upper Egypt in large numbers (Peacock,2000). As such, the distinctive trait frequencies of El Hesa were probably not due to Roman gene flow. There is no evidence that Kharga and Hawara received such influence. Thus the results, at least for these samples, do not support significant biological differentiation in the Egyptians of this time relative to their dynastic predecessors.

We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

From the Fayum Project's webpage on the Hawara site:

The dead
Most of the thousands of people that were buried at Hawara during the Graeco-Roman period remain anonymous. For the entire Graeco-Roman period 184 persons buried near Amenemhat's pyramid, are known by name (104 Ptolemaic, 62 Roman, 1 Byzantine, 17 undated). In the Ptolemaic period a few papyri in the undertakers archives contain names of tomb-owners with neighbours. For a tiny group of mummies sex, name, age, occupation and/or provenance are known, thanks to tomb stones, offering tables, linen shrouds, portraits or masks with a short text, etc. These data can only rarely be linked with the mummies themselves, since inscribed portraits, linen and labels were usually separated from the bodies by the finders. For the plain mummies hardly any information is given.
The well-known mummy portraits offer a glimpse of how some of the persons may have looked like or wanted to be represented during their lives. X-ray scanning and computerized axial tomography (C.A.T. scanning) of some Hawara mummies has yielded complementary data concerning for instance the age at death of the deceased, the cause of their death and their social status (e.g. the well-known Artemidoros and the woman teacher Hermione (photo)).
In the Ptolemaic period Egyptians form the largest group of persons buried at Hawara. Greeks represent only about 12% of the deceased known by name (22 persons). In the Roman period the percentage of Greek names increases to 56.5% (35 of the 62 names). Latin names are rare (9 names – 14.7%, e.g. Tiberius Iulius Asklepiades, Tiberius Claudius Cylindrus and Valeria Politta). A wooden cross for a certain Petrus (Lefebvre 1907 no.775) is the only Byzantine burial with a name.
No less than twenty of the known Ptolemaic Hawara dead performed religious or funerary functions during their lives. In the Roman period priests can sometimes be recognised by their mummy portraits or masks, e.g. Petrie's 'golden girl' with the typical Isis dress and Isis lock and his 'Sarapis priest' with his diadem with a seven pointed star (cf. Parlasca 1966, pp.85-90; Borg 1998, pp.69-71).
Others were members of the administration, e.g. an anonymous Ptolemaic topogrammateus in P.Ashm. I 9 (100-90 BC), the nomographos Souchas and even two gymnasiarchs Tiberius Iulius Asklepiades and Dios.
Soldiers or officers of the Roman army can be recognised by their white chiton with a blue, beige, violet or red mantle (sagum) draped over the left shoulder or attached with a fibula on the right shoulder and by the sword belt (sagum) decorated with golden bullae (cf. Speidel 1999, p.87).
But also middle and lower class people were buried at Hawara, such as the horse trader Heliodoros, the wool merchant Apollinarios, the tailor Diogenes, the fruit carrier […]-ls, the gardener Ptolemaios (101 or 98 BC) and an anonymous herdsman (P.Ashm.D. 26 unpublished – 30 BC). Some occupations may have been linked to the local funerary business, e.g. the gilder (χρυσωτής) Mysthas with his gilt-faced mask (Grimm 1974, p.21) the painter (ζωγράφος) Sabinus; or Apollonios, a seller of myrrh and perfumes (μιρτοπώλης = μυροπώλης).
The ages of the dead, known from inscriptions and from X-ray scanning and computerized axial tomography (C.A.T. scanning) are in accordance with the high mortality rates of Antiquity, when life expectancy at birth for men was only 25 years and even lower for women (cf. Bagnall-Frier 1994, pp.84-90). In agreement with this are the numerous young persons among the Hawara portrait mummies and the children in dead lists and on tomb stones.
Because the excavators kept only the most richly decorated mummies, information on the dead is largely limited to the elite. Mummification may have been common, but portraits or a gilded mask were only available for the upper and (middle) classes. Portrait mummies represent a mere 1 to 2 % of the deceased. Most of the thousands of 'plain' mummies of people belonging to the lower and middle classes have been thrown away without further study. The 'Greek' elite of the Arsinoite nome was not restricted to the privileged group of the '6475' of the Arsinoites, but consisted also of Romans, other well-to-do Greeks and Hellenised Egyptians.
Some of those buried at Hawara were of course local villagers; thus Premionis, his wife(?) Arsinoe, and their two sons 3jpj and Pjltw, are said to be 'from Hawara'. Undertakers and priests of Hawara were also buried locally. However, the cemetery is far too large for one small village. Excavations near Medinet el-Fayum only revealed poor burials dating to the 5th-6th century AD (Schweinfurth 1887). Nearby Hawara, ideally located at the desert edge and easily accessible from the metropolis by the Bahr Yussuf, was a logical choice as necropolis for the nome capital. For some it was a privilege to be buried in the sacred area near the tomb and temple of the deified Amenemhat. Thus an anonymous metropolite, who lived at Tebtynis, explicitly mentioned in his last will that he wanted to be buried 'near the Labyrinth' (SB VIII 9642 l.4; 117-138 AD). At least part of the Hellenized elite buried at Hawara must have lived in the metropolis, e.g. the gymnasiarchs Tiberius Iulius Asklepiades and Dios and their wives. The specification ᾿Αρσινοείτης added to the occupation of the wool merchant Apollinarios (SB I 3965/III 7084; 2nd century AD) and the mention of the agora; τῶν ἱματοπωλῶν on the mummy label of Diodoros (SB XVIII 13654; Roman period) suggest that these too were inhabitants of Arsinoe.
Hawara also attracted persons from other places in the Arsinoite nome. Thus the body of an undertaker of Alexandrou Nesos had to be placed in a family tomb at Hawara (P.Hawara Lüdd. IV; 220 BC). The unpublished account P.Ashm. I 30 lists deceased from the village Mendes, from Ptolemais Hormou and even from Meidoum in the Memphite nome. There may even be a relation between the place of origin of the dead and the cult places of Pramarres in the Fayum (e.g. Alexandrou Nesos and Tebtynis).
Indeed, even people from outside the Fayum found their last resting place at Hawara, as is attested by the correspondence between the undertakers of Alexandria with those of Hawara (SB I 5216; 101, 68 or 39 BC) and by the mummy label of Pantagathos, sent "to the Arsinoite nome" (SB I 3967).

So apparently during Roman times, more Egyptians were culturally Hellenized without necessarily having Hellenic or Roman ancestry.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

---

Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :


 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] I thought it was made clear by my examples of actress Meghan Markle and the pop star Halsey that mixed or 'biracial' people can have very fair/white complexions also!

Here is another pic of Halsey



Here is a pic of of actress Rebecca Hall who is also biracial.

---

quote:

---

Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry (Table 1). We find systematic differences across states in the US in mean ancestry proportions of self-reported African Americans (Figure 1 and Table S2). On average, the highest levels of African ancestry are found in African Americans living in or born in the South, especially South Carolina and Georgia (Figure 1Aand Table S3). We find lower proportions of African ancestry in the Northeast, the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest, and California. The amount of Native American ancestry estimated for African Americans also varies across states in the US. More than 5% of African Americans are estimated to carry at least 2% Native American ancestry genome-wide (Figures S1 and 1D). African Americans in the West and Southwest on average carry higher levels of Native American ancestry, a trend that is largely driven by individuals with less than 2% Native American ancestry (Figure 1B). With a lower threshold of 1% Native American ancestry, we estimate that about 22% of African Americans carry some Native American ancestry (Figure S2).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

---

Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ But according to the source cited by Tukuler, the Ptolemies already had African/Egyptian admixture before Arsinoe and Cleopatra VII were born, so no they were not technically 'biracial'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


We have to keep in mind that Hawara is just one of many cemeteries in the Faiyum. When people think of Roman era Fayum, most automatically think of the portraits of Greco-Roman or Greco-Roman admixed Egyptians but the vast majority of Egyptians buried in the Fayum were not elite or of Greco-Roman heritage.

---

Interesting and is it a coincidence they already looked like modern egyptians before the muslim conquest ?

wouldn't these people be considered "arabs" by modern standards ? :

---

You post a collage mural of different Faiyum portraits from the Greco-Roman era showing an obviously heterogeneous mix of people, but I don't see how you can call them "Arabs" when they have nothing to do with the Arab people. By the way, the majority of people today who are called 'Arabs' are not ethnic Arabs but rather 'Arabized' that is Arabic in language in culture. It's like modern Hispanics, who speak Spanish language but the vast majority may have little to no Spanish ancestry at all.

Also what does your mural have to do with the specific Hawara sample that Irish used. The Hawara sample shows NO Eurasian admixture unlike his Greek Egyptian sample.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

Modern egyptians are already an heterogeneous mix of people and these fayum portraits still look for the most part very north african and if you know they are in fact arabized why do you treat them as vulgar "invaders" do you have any evidence of important amount of foreign ancestry in their genome?

---

quote:

---

As for the Hawara samples do you have any source to back up your statement ? Eurasian admixture in that part of the world is old going back to the paleolithic era.

---

Sir, I just cited a paper from Irish and even quoted him! I suggest you scroll up and read what he wrote. The Hawara sample differed from the Greek and Asiatic ones as being African in affinity. Now can you provide a source showing Eurasian admixture in Egypt going back to the paleolithic??
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
So just exactly what do you mean by a 'North African' look? North Africans vary from white blonde or red-headed coastal Berbers, and white Alexandrian Greeks and Circassians, to dark brown (black) Tuaregs, Moors, or Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians and variation in between including brown-skinned pure Arabs vs. fairer skinned Turks and Circassians. Yes the Arabs proper were invaders but so were a variety of peoples who invaded Egypt before them. 'Arab' largely describes the predominant language and culture, but it says little about the actual people. Do you realize that ethnic Arab Egyptians still look down upon and discriminate against the ethnic Baladi Egyptians not only for their dark skin but for racial stereotypes that are surprisingly not much different from those traditionally held by whites for blacks in America??

---

quote:

---

Sir, I just cited a paper from Irish and even quoted him? I suggest you scroll up and read what he wrote. The Hawara sample differed from the Greek and Asiatic ones as being African in affinity. Now can you provide a source showing Eurasian admixture in Egypt going back to the paleolithic?? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

I meant that they already looked like the average north african and would have probably be considered as "arab looking" by afro-americans like yourself if they were alive today. Also I don't see why you equate "invasion" with replacement/changes and such "invasions" could have occured and did occured even before historical times. Population living in Europe or West Asia didn't wait "hyksos" or "arabs" to settle in North Africa.

---

quote:

---

And I don't see why you bring colorism into this discussion but Egyptians like any other "arab" populations have a long lasting history of slavery which mostly involved dark skinned populations. So don't be surprised if in countries like Morocco "abid" became synonymous of "black" nor should you be surprised when modern egyptians express such feelings.

---

quote:

---

How is this a proof they had no eurasian admixture? You said it yourself : north africans already show such affinity and yet they are predominantly eurasian genetically + they show similarities with the Badarian samples which clearly show eurasian affinities unlike for example the pure negroids from Jebel Sahaba.

---

quote:

---

And are you seriously denying paleolithic and neolithic back migrations to Africa?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I personally know Arabs from the Middle East and even they tell me North Africans generally look black or 'black-mixed' the Arabs in North Africa being descended from the Islamic invaders. I already provided you a link to a thread I created on Baladi: The Baladi of Egypt consider it an insult if you call them Nubians.They’re Egyptian!!. The Baladi are the non-Arab indigenous Egyptians who are often mistaken for 'Nubians' by foreigners because they are black! They also suffer from discrimination and stigma by the lighter skinned elites of their country they call Afrangi who stereotype them as "violent", "lazy", "criminalistic" and "hypersexual" i.e. the same stereotypes applied to other black Africans.

---

Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :





And stop with your "muh arab" as if a few thousand soldiers would have been able to replace or deeply impact the most densely populated area of the ancient world even worse with your logic we should accept the fact arabs replaced or deeply impacted the whole middle east + all north africa...sure. Some egyptians might have a bit of recent arab ancestry but that's it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: And NO, I'm not "Afro-American" I'm actually Asian American, Filipino to be exact. And it was a Filipino researcher, Paul Kekai Manansala, who documented all the evidence showing the Egyptians to be an African people showing more affinities to so-called Sub-Saharans than to Eurasians. Although is website is out of commission copies of his findings can be found here:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Ignoramus, the Baladi were never actually enslaved but were reduced to serfs under Islamic rule since they were already Christian (Copts!). While many converted to Islam and gained full rights under the Islamic Umma, those who remained Christian had a rougher time including paying the jizya tax. Whatever slaves from Sub-Sahara that was imported into the country was owned by the Arab and other Afrangi elite and were a miniscule minority.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I said that in certain phenotypic features North Africans do show affinities to Eurasians but they still show affinities to Sub-Saharans as well which is why all biometric studies show North Africans to be intermediate between Sub-Saharans and Eurasians and NOT grouped with Eurasian, you liar!

Again here is what Irish has to say concerning dental discrete traits of North Africans:

Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which parallels that of Europeans, yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2, and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.

^ All the traits listed in bold are ones shared with Sub-Saharans! Really the biggest difference in dental traits between North Africans and Sub-Saharan is metrically with the former having smaller 'microdont' teeth similar to West Eurasians while the latter has larger 'megadont' teeth similar to Australo-Melanesians. They still share many non-metric traits in common hence the intermediate position NAs have between SSA and West Eurasians.

---

I was talking about their ancestry not "biometric" datas and since when are dental traits representative of all the other traits ? Most North Africans cluster with west eurasians physically certainly not as "intermediate" :

quote:

---

The anthropological position of Algerians vis-à-vis other populations of the Mediterranean Basin, also analyzed by the method of the general distance of Hiernaux, showed that there are affinities between them and certain populations of the Mediterranean West such as the Corsicans, the Sardinians, the Spaniards, the Italians of the south. On the other hand, the coefficients of distance appeared particularly high between the Algerians and the Italians of the Center, as well as the Yugoslavs and the sedentary populations of the Near East like the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Syrians. In these populations, the Armenoid type, which is very different from the Mediterranean type, is indeed widely represented, whereas it is not very widespread in Algeria. There is therefore no reason to be surprised by these divergences. On the other hand, the distance between certain Bedouins of the Near East where the Mediterranean type predominates, and the Algerians, appeared much less marked.

The origin of the affinities between the Algerians and the populations of the Western Mediterranean cannot be explained on the sole basis of current biological data, but must be sought in the anthropological past of the Algerian population as well as in the historical and archaeological data at our disposal. The latter, for their part, seem to demonstrate the existence of cultural currents from the protohistoric period and perhaps even going back to an earlier period, between the Maghreb and the countries of the

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: In a later study Irish contrasts Greco-Roman colonial samples from native Egyptains: Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental AffinitiesAmong Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples

Did Egyptians of the Ptolemaic and Roman periods differ significantly from their dynastic antecedents?



I never said they are "predominantly Eurasian genetically", this is YOUR claim which you have yet to prove. We've already shown how in autosomal studies this 'Eurasian' or 'Middle Eastern' substructure often masks African ones like ANA and even so-called Eurasian profiles like EEF and Basal Eurasian are heavily correlated with African haplogroups which means it's not as Eurasian as you think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course not. What I question is whether those people "back-migrating" were really Eurasians unrelated to Africans instead of Africans who simply left and returned. Are you serously denying multiple OOA expansions which not only explains E-M215 and L2 in Southwest Asia but in Europe as well not to mention HBS sickle-cell mutation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Funny how you have yet to address the actual topic of this thread which is about Ptolemy II's Egyptian lover Didyme.

In 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, Asclepiades describes Didyme as such:

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

Look Neandernut, my patience is wearing thin with you running around the elephant in the room! Keep running while you can. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

---

Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

---

Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

---

even though her definition is ridiculous, these men are still not black since their skin color is "brown"/tanned

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you. There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking. You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry

---

Thus according to Djehuti the above are black people. I'm not questioning it, just pointing this out

---

even though her definition is ridiculous, these men are still not black since their skin color is "brown"/tanned

---

the argument is that is the classical Greco-Roman definition of black, a color not features

Those Egyptians are dark and it's not all tan, their bodies if uncovered are not going to resemble the average Western European,
they ae going to be quite brown
There are millions of people of European descent, who have lived in Florida their whole life. That is the same latitude as Egypt, Algeria or Libya
but their faces don't look like that, only in some cases if they intentionally lie in the beach for hours and do it all the time

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
depends what type of skin type they have but I can assure you that when I tan I literally become brown while in france I have a light skin color but my mom can't tan for example so it really depends on the person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Which greek word exactly was used to describe her ? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

---

quote:

---

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

---

If Asclepiades is likening Didyme's complexion to coals, I don't think he had a light tan in mind.

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
And I don't really want to waste a lot of effort rebutting Antalas. DJ has more stamina for that than I do. But this was funny:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Which greek word exactly was used to describe her ? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

---

Did this guy not read the original quotation?

quote:

---

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

---

If Asclepiades is likening Didyme's complexion to coals, I don't think he had a light tan in mind.

---

quote:

---

S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you...

---

quote:

---

There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking...

---

quote:

---

You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this:

---

Moron! Most of the photos in my Baladi thread are from Luxor, Sohag, and Gurna Upper Egypt well away from the Sudanese border and I even included photos of Baladi from northern region of Giza who act as local tour guides for the pyramids!!
So you assumed they were all Nubians from near the southern border because of their "negroid" appearance?!! Shows how ignorant you are!!
ROTFLOL


There's no need for me to "cherrypick" anything. Again I'm not playing 'picture spam wars' with you. There are countless picture threads in this forum showing you Baladi from their own communities. Go take a look yourself, and by the way your own photos prove my point.

quote:

---

And stop with your "muh arab" as if a few thousand soldiers would have been able to replace or deeply impact the most densely populated area of the ancient world even worse with your logic we should accept the fact arabs replaced or deeply impacted the whole middle east + all north africa...sure. Some egyptians might have a bit of recent arab ancestry but that's it.

---

quote:

---

hahaha sure a filipino spending years here obsessing over egyptians and their blackness ...makes sense.

---

quote:

---

Who said they were enslaved? Reread what I posted. What does "arab" even mean here ...Baladi speak arabic like any other egyptian and no they weren't a miniscule minority we're talking about millions of slaves being imported in North africa which had back then low population (compared to our current era) of a few millions (if not a few thousands for libya). Compared to all the ancient samples we have, egyptians have extra west african ancestry which could have only been brought by the slave trade (similar pattern is seen among their haplogroups).

---

quote:

---

I was talking about their ancestry not "biometric" datas and since when are dental traits representative of all the other traits?...

---

quote:

---

Most North Africans cluster with west eurasians physically certainly not as "intermediate":...

---

That depends on which specific factor or trait you are referring to. In other ways, they cluster with Sub-Saharans as is the case with skeletal limb proportions:

The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

The anthropological position of Algerians vis-à-vis other populations of the Mediterranean Basin, also analyzed by the method of the general distance of Hiernaux, showed that there are affinities between them and certain populations of the Mediterranean West such as the Corsicans, the Sardinians, the Spaniards, the Italians of the south. On the other hand, the coefficients of distance appeared particularly high between the Algerians and the Italians of the Center, as well as the Yugoslavs and the sedentary populations of the Near East like the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Syrians. In these populations, the Armenoid type, which is very different from the Mediterranean type, is indeed widely represented, whereas it is not very widespread in Algeria. There is therefore no reason to be surprised by these divergences. On the other hand, the distance between certain Bedouins of the Near East where the Mediterranean type predominates, and the Algerians, appeared much less marked.

The origin of the affinities between the Algerians and the populations of the Western Mediterranean cannot be explained on the sole basis of current biological data, but must be sought in the anthropological past of the Algerian population as well as in the historical and archaeological data at our disposal. The latter, for their part, seem to demonstrate the existence of cultural currents from the protohistoric period and perhaps even going back to an earlier period, between the Maghreb and the countries of the

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2897#tocto2n15

---

quote:

---

Showing some dental affinities with SSAs doesn't mean much since we already know north africans have ssa ancestry.

---

Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans.



What's interesting is that NONE of the samples Irish used are modern but ALL ancient samples from dynastic and predynastic times. This seemingly contradicts the Abusir Mummy study unless one takes into account that the mummies come from a late period and/or what Beyoku pointed here that there are African substructures that are not yet differentiated from 'Eurasian' the same way ANA was.

quote:

---

Funny how you try to question everything eurasian and make it "african"...I really wonder how all these populations became white with caucasoid features. And again stop obsessing over ANA while such ancestry was already found in low proportion among Iberomaurusians let alone people like Natufians. Having some ANA won't make them "african" or "black".

---

quote:

---

So now even EEF are black ? Hahahahaha are you aware that modern sardinians are basically EEF do they look "african" to you ? Are you aware that modern arabs carry 60-70% of natufian ancestry do they look black to you ? Again stop embarassing yourself with such claims, it's pretty evident all these populations were physically very different from modern sub-saharan africans.

---

quote:

---

You're forgetting the timeframe here, when we talk about back migrants we're not talking about the first OOA migrants who just arrived in the middle east obviously. Upper Paleolithic europeans despite having dark skinned clearly had nothing to do with "africans" ,looked very different and plot far from them and yet Iberomaurusians were very similar to them physically...let alone the later neolithic capsians who were proto-mediterraneans and very similar physically to people like kabyles.

---

quote:

---

At this point it is just dishonesty, such back migrations and ancestry are definitely distinct and eurasian in essence unable to face such reality you tries to make it "african" as "part of the diversity of Africa" lmao...you're desesperate at this point.

---

quote:

---

Which greek word exactly was used to describe her? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin.

---

LMAO Sorry but Greeks aren't dumb enough to conflate 'black' with 'tanned'!! The Greek word for black is melano (melanchro for very black) while the word for tanned or 'bronze' color is skouraino. Not to mention the passage compared Didyme's complexion to coal! Seriously, Neandernut your delusions are too much!
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
lol I just checked your link and this is what they say :

quote:

---

S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

---

hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.

---

quote:

---

As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

---

Mind you, there's nothing in the ancient quote itself that indicates she had to be of "Nubian" ancestry. That is just an assumption certain modern scholars have made based on their preconceptions of how AE and "Nubian" peoples looked like.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Not only that, but there are too many texts from Greek and Roman authors describing the Egyptians as black. In fact Sally-Ann Ashton the British Classicist and Egyptology expert on the Greco-Roman period (whom Asar Imhotep interviewed here) had always thought of the Egyptians as black people based on such descriptions. Even old racist scholars back in the day like Morton and Coon admitted that the Egyptians were 'black' in color just not "negro".

Here are just a few of the 'Classical' descriptions:

Herodotus: "it is in fact manifest that the Colchians are Egyptian by race ... several Egyptians told me that in their opinion the Colchians were descended from soldiers of Sesostris. I had conjectured as much myself from two pointers, firstly because they have black skins and wooly hair (to tell the truth this proves nothing for other peoples have them too) and secondly, and more reliably for the reason that alone among mankind the Egyptians and the Ethiopians have practiced circumcision since time immemorial..."

Ammianus Marcellinus: "the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look."

Aristotle: "Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two."

Lucian: introducing two Greek writers...

Lycinus (describing a young Egyptian): 'This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin. . . his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman.'

Timolaus: 'But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place.

Apollodorus: "Aegyptos conquered the country of the blackfooted ones and called it Egypt after himself"

Aeschylus: In The Suppliants, Danaos, fleeing with his daughters, the Danaids, and pursued by his brother Aegyptos with his sons, the Aegyptiads, who seek to wed their cousins by force, climbs a hillock, looks out to sea and describes the Aegyptiads at the oars afar off in these terms: 'I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics' and 'In ships, stout-timbered and dark-prowed, they have sailed here, attended by a mighty black host, and in their wrath overtaken us'

Diodorus Siculus: "The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians `are one of their colonies,35 which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent."

Not to mention that Antalas is obviously inconsistent with his logic. When Didyme is blatantly called 'black' as coal he questions if it actually means "tanned" but then when he reads about the possibility that she was Ethiopian, then "of course she's black"! LOL

That's why I never take the guy seriously and simply use him as an example for any current lurkers who wish to learn something.

Turn lemons into lemonade I say.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

"Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans."

---

This is an 1000 IQ quote
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
This quote is really odd considering that in the first place, no united entity called Nubia was ever used by the Egyptians/Kushites in 3,000+ years of dynastic history.

I do find it funny that people keep debating this topic when there's literally so called black Egyptians in Upper Egypt still alive today.








[/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
lol I just checked your link and this is what they say :

quote:

---

S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

---

hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.

---

Immediately afterward, said source says:

quote:

---

As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

---

Mind you, there's nothing in the ancient quote itself that indicates she had to be of "Nubian" ancestry. That is just an assumption certain modern scholars have made based on their preconceptions of how AE and "Nubian" peoples looked like.

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

"Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans."

---

This is an 1000 IQ quote

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nope. The only one making claims up is YOU. This is the general stereotype that Middle Eastern Arabs have about North Africans. Note this is a stereotype so there are of course exceptions but they know what the original North Africans look like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Baladi is the Coptic word for 'indigenous' or 'native' as opposed to Khawaga which means 'foreign'. Baladi is an ethnic appellation in contrast to other Egyptians who are of foreign ancestry whether it be Arab, Greek, Circassian, etc. Even some Baladi are mixed but those in the rural communities are more pristine. You say you know "some of them on twitter", but are they actually Baladi or simply Arab or some other type of Egyptian. Come on, be honest for once in your life. As far as not "black looking" well that depends on what you mean by "black". Many North Africans equate "black" with stereotypical Sub-Saharan looking of course here in the West and even in Europe "black" encompasses a lot more than West African/Bantu looking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Moron. Most of the photos in my Balad thread are from Luxor, Sohag, and Gurna Upper Egypt well far away from the Sudanese border and I even included photos of Baladi from northern region of Giza who act as local tour guides for the pyramids!!
So you assumed they were all Nubians from near the southern border because of their "negroid" appearance?!! Shows how ignorant you are!!
ROTFLOL


There's no need for me to "cherrypick" anything. Again I'm not playing 'picture spam wars' with you. There are countless picture threads in this forum showing you Baladi from their own communities. Go take a look yourself, and by the way your own photos prove my point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: You idiot, it was far more than a few thousand if you count the different Caliphates in history that brought in waves of Arab tribes to help establish their authority. Even the Ottoman Turkish Caliphate not only imported Arab tribes but also fellow Turks as well as Circassians from the Caucasus and even Europeans from the Balkans.

It is pretty much a historical fact that througout the Dynastic Period and into the Roman period, the vast majority of the Egyptian populace resided in Upper Egypt yet by the beginning of the Modern Era the majority of the populace resides in the Delta as they do today. You don't think a demographic change occurred?

I suggest you educate yourself:

Arab migration into Egypt and Sudan during the Medieval period

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, I joined this forum years ago to discuss cultural features of ancient Egyptian culture which I happened to notice strongly coincide with those of Sub-Saharans. I pretty much got dragged into the whole 'race' argument but the evidence is overwhelming in support of their black identity. One does not have to be black to accept it. Again Paul Kekai Manansal did his research and compiled all the evidence. He even started a web group called 'Ta Seti'. Brandon is another poster on here and he is white!! There are many others. It's not about Afrocentric but about the TRUTH. Egypt is in Africa and its peoples are African including 'black' skin!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Baladi speak Arabic because they were Arabized like many people under Islamic rule. I forgot which Caliphate, but Egyptians were even threatened with fines and even death if the natives didn't learn Arabic.

The Transition from Coptic to Arabic:

After the Arab conquest of Egypt, Coptic continued to be used by the Christian population and remained the sole language of the Church for at least three centuries. During the first century of Arab rule, it seems as if the use of Arabic was mainly limited to the immigrants, and the internal affaire of the military ruling elite. It was only with the large-scale immigration of Arabs, the defeat of Coptic peasant résistance to the new rulers and the repressive taxation of the Copts with the subsequent conversion oflarge parts of the population to Islam in the later eighth and in the ninth century, that Arabic became the main spoken language. By the early ninth century, the use of Arabic among Christians had become widespread but was still regarded as contrary to their fidelity to the Christian heritage 4. But during the tenth and eleventh centuries, this changed rapidly. Within a few generations Coptic died out as a spoken language, and by the end of the twelfth century, Arabic had become the main written languageof the Church. As is evident from the linguistic works of the great Coptic scholars of the thirteenth century, Copticwas already a classical language known only by those who studied it from preserved texts

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Also, while millions of Sub-Saharans were imported into Egypt, the vast majority of them were then exported to the east in other parts of the Arab world especially Baghdad. This makes sense because the Baladi who themselves were in serfdom were already in a state of servitude to the Arab and other Afrangi elites who ruled over them so mass slave labor from eslwhere was not needed. Those Sub-Saharans who stayed in Egypt served in the Afrangi elite's households and in many ways had better lives than the Baladi who scraped and labored the fields. There were very few if any instances of Baladi intermarrying with these Sub-Saharan slaves. Also, the birthrate of the Sub-Saharans was extremely low. Not only were the males castrated and unable to sire offspring but it is recorded that the females had fertility issues. So no the Sub-Saharan admixture among modern Egyptians cannot be explained by "slave" admixture, ignoramus!

---

quote:

---

Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: If you paid attention to what was said in the Irish thread here or at least educate yourself about dental discrete data here, you would realize that non-metric dental traits like all non-metric traits correlate to actual population genetics! This is unlike metric data which is more specious and not directly tied to genetics.

---

Therefore why don't you acknowledge the fact that such non-metric datas show ancient egyptians to be mostly west eurasian :


"Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada (#59), 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh (#60) cluster with Northwest Indians from Punjab and Kashmir (#44), Ancient and Modern Greeks (#48), Scandinavians from Finland, Sweden and Norway (#51, #52), and Modern Germans (#53)."





This is what the paper also says :

quote:

---

The initial split, suggesting the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups.

---

HANIHARA, TSUNEHIKO, HAJIME ISHIDA, AND YUKIO DODO. 2003. Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121:241-251.


Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

quote:

---

The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group , which is also subdivided into two subgroups. One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations. "

---

quote:

---

First, this homogeneity spans both space - from the Canary Islands to Egypt, and time - from recent Arabs and Berbers to West Asian-derived Carthaginians (751?-146 BC), 18th Dynasty (1575-1380 BC) Pharonic Nubians, and 12th Dynasty (1991-1783 BC) Egyptians. A small Capsian sample (ca. 8,500-5,000 BP) from Algeria and Tunisia also exhibits many trait similarities. Late Pleistocene Nubians (14,500-12,500 BP), however, are significantly different. Second, the post-Pleistocene North Africans are similar to Europeans in that they possess numerous dental features involving morphological simplification. Any North African deviations away from this pattern are in the direction of mass-additive Sub-Saharan traits. This finding supports the results of prior genetic-based studies that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians, yet record several Sub-Saharan tendencies. Together, the two findings suggest that a morphologically simple dental pattern is shared by the indigenous peoples of North Africa, as well as Europe and perhaps western Asia, and this pattern has existed for the past 4,000 to perhaps 8,500+/- years."

---

Irish J.D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155


It seems that when discussing Irish's work you missed this :

quote:

---

However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: That depends on which specific factor or trait you are referring to. In other ways, they cluster with Sub-Saharans as is the case with skeletal structural limb proportions.
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

---

quote:

---

The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: First off, the population history of the Maghreb is different from that of Egypt. Algerians are not Egyptians. Even the craniometric MMD chart you posted shows that. This shows that North Africans are not homogeneous anymore than Sub-Saharans are.

Second, yes the Maghreb recieved admixture from Sothwest Europe but the converse is also true with Southwest Europeans recieving African admixture from the Maghreb. So what's your point?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Actually I only question something being "Eurasian" when it is found in Africa. You see, Euronuts like yourself have been trying to white-wash Africa for well over a century. Not just Egyptians, but Nubians and even Ethiopians, Somalis, Tutsis, Fulani, etc. any Africans who supposedly look "caucasoid". You see, one reason why Asians like myself and Manansala are on to your b.s. is because Asians have also been victims of this white-wash. Just look at the old literature of Southeast Asians and Polynesians once classed as "Mediteranean Cacasoid" due to certain features as well. As far as why many North Africans in the coastal areas including Egyptians look white today is because due to foreign admixture of course. Of course rural Berbers and Baladi Egyptians are different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I didn't say EEF itself was necessarily "black" only that it has an African component to it. And yes I know about modern Arabs carrying Natufian ancestry. Are you aware that the Natufians carried not only paternal E1b1b but also maternal L2b and Benin HBS sickle cell? Are you aware historically some modern Arabs in the rural Hejaz and especially in Yemen today were/are considered black?? Are you also aware that one-third of Europeans have African ancestry does that make them black? Of course not. Having a particular ancestry doesn't mean they will have a certain phenotype or look.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Do you realize that even old racist scholars like Carleton Coon described so-called 'Proto-Mediterraneans' as distinct from Upper Paleolithic Europeans and as originating in Africa OR Southwest Asia and was said to have "negroid tendencies"?? He and other scholars also included North Sudanese and Horn Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis as part of this 'race continuum'. So if you want to include all these people as whate cacasoids then so be it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: You're right about one thing. It is dishonesty from YOU, as well as ignorance. I just described all the African genetic traits associated with the Neolithic forebears including skeletal traits of skull and face that tie them to Africa. Africa is the source of humanity so unsurprisingly it has the highest genetic diversity of any continent. That you want live in fantasy land of white Egypt and white Neolithic folks who have nothing to do with Africa is your problem of delusion not mine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
Immediately afterward, said source says:

quote:

---

As much as I would love to argue for a dynastic link between the Ptolemies and the kings of Meroe, I don't find Snowden's reasoning very coherent -- if Nubians were well-integrated into Egyptian society why could she not have been an Egyptian of Nubian ancestry? But it is interesting to note that Verdi's libretto was based on a story idea proposed by the French Egyptologist Maspero, who was certainly aware of Didyme's existence.

---

Mind you, there's nothing in the ancient quote itself that indicates she had to be of "Nubian" ancestry. That is just an assumption certain modern scholars have made based on their preconceptions of how AE and "Nubian" peoples looked like. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

I forgot to mention that the many traits that North Africans have in common with Sub-Saharans should be acknowledged simply as African traits period. While there are differences between North Africans and Sub-Saharans there are also commonalities between the two that Euronuts like Antalas/Nassbean are in denial of.

---

quote:

---

it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] ^ Ty Daniels is right. Antalas is just a troll from the past, and that makes it worse because apparently he never learned. These trolls love to talk their nonsense but never learn no matter how many times they are debunked.

[QUOTE] He is obviously suffering from some kind of delusion. He denies modern indigenous Egyptians even look black and claims they are all light-skinned 'Arab' looking types, but when you show him black looking ones he then claims they are Nubians from the Sudanese border. And when you show him how Egyptian have affinities to Sub-Saharans, he says it is because of mixed SSA ancestry per the Abusir study but then the affinities we speak of come from ancient dynastic remains! LOL

And when you show him that the Greeks called the Egyptians black (melanchro), he claims they really meant "tan" which is skouraino. Talk about the king of denial.

I forgot to mention that the many traits that North Africans have in common with Sub-Saharans should be acknowledged simply as African traits period. While there are differences between North Africans and Sub-Saharans there are also commonalities between the two that Euronuts like Antalas/Nassbean are in denial of.

---

Can you stop with your assumptions about me ? I never said or imply all egyptians look the same and are "light skinned arab" nor did I claim that ssa traits are only due to slave ancestry.

And stop making generalizations about ancient greek words, you're clearly downplaying all the nuances of greek words. They generally used "aethiop" ( ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black) that's why Ammian Marcellin said this :

Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest".[59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians". So it wasn't just "black" like in the United States.

---

You're trying to create doubt on this subject, and it's pathetic! Ancient Nile Valley civilization was comprised of a confederation of distinct Black Africans. We know from various forms of evidence that Nilo Saharan speaking peoples were there. We know from various forms of evidence that Niger-Congo speakers were present. We know from various forms of evidence that Cushitic elements were present. We also know from various forms of evidence that the Dravidian peoples of India were also present. White scholars if they even acknowledge an African component will only allude to some Cushitic affinities. It is up to us to assert that the rest were present. None the less it was a Black civilization from start to finish. You have no real point at all since we all know that non Blacks in Asia and Europe were despised by the Khamites as Set worshipping heathens which was contrary to the Osirian culture. Manethos made it clear that whites at one time (JUST LIKE TACTUS OF ROME STATED) had a uniform look (red hair and Blue eyes), and were subject to immediate death by the Black Egyptians as whites with that phenotype were seen as living embodiments of their Devil Set. So that's why you sound RIDICULOUS claiming that Kemet was anything but Black African.

Ancient Egyptian Scarabs


These people do not look Indian. These people look like Idi Amin of Uganda. None of the people in the picture below look anything like these Scarabs. Nor do these modern peoples in Egypt carry sickle cell like the people of Dynastic and predynastic Kham did.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

---

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

---

the men look similar in both sets

---

Despite little no aDNA evidence linking the modern peoples in Egypt to the Ancients you trolls are still trying to make this argument that modern invading Arab-Turks in Egypt have anything to do with ancient Kham.










 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
Just letting everyone know that the webpage linked to in my OP was apparently taken down. Thankfully, I was able to use the Wayback Machine to find an archived version of it. The OP link has been updated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Big O:

Despite little no aDNA evidence linking the modern peoples in Egypt to the Ancients

---

According to Bekeda (2013)
the some of the various
haplogroups of Modern Egyptians include

21.8%_______E1b1b1a (M78)

18.5%_______E1b1b1b (Z827)

3.2%________E1b1b1 (M35)

2.4%________E1b1a

________________

mtDNA
"Regarding the sub-Saharan African component,

Algeria (20%)
is at the same level
as Morocco (20.4%)
and Egypt (22.9%)"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576335/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




https://www.google.com/books/edition/Egyptian_Art_in_the_Age_of_the_Pyramids/mxAZpKoo-YwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Huni+head+Brooklyn+Museum&pg=PA54&printsec=frontcover

beware of false captions
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

I'm myself north african and I've never heard about such stereotype. That kind of stereotype would maybe work for egyptians and sudanese but certainly not NW africans.

---

quote:

---

Many modern north africans consider themselves "arabs" because they're part of an arab tribe. Does that mean they are saudis living in North Africa ? Does that mean they are closer genetically to saudis than their berber or egyptian neighbours ? Of course not. We have enough of egyptian genetic results whether muslim or coptic and there isn't much difference between them but yet it seems you always avoid these results and prefer to rely on dubious biometric studies with limited set of samples...I wonder why.

---

quote:

---

And I was honest (I can even give you his twitter account), they absolutely don't look black but look exactly like how egyptians used to depict themselves.

---

quote:

---

I've seen plenty of pictures from these people and they didn't look as black as the people you showed me that's why I'm seriously questioning your reliability.

---

quote:

---

These are your assumptions based on historical events but do you have any genetic evidence of such changes? Or numbers of arabs,turks,circassians who settled and mixed with the local population?

---

quote:

---

It reminds me of these eurocentrists who assumed we were "mutts" because we absorbed too many black slaves and arabs...then the guanche paper came out and despite the lack of studies on our region, north african remains kept being found among south european remains and here again they clustered with us so don't assume military conquest equals replacement or changes.

---

Again, most black slaves were NOT absorbed meaning that the admixture predated the Trans-Saharan slave trade. Also, Guanches were indeed white in appearance but they are not the only Canary Islanders. What about the others?:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.



Also Southwest Europeans i.e. Iberians are also African admixed as well. See here

quote:

---

I have a hard time believing a filipino would act like this. This makes no sense, that would be like a chinese obsessing over the race of ancient germans lol

---

quote:

---

Indeed arabized like 99% of modern "arabs".

---

quote:

---

Not all were deported to the middle east since the middle east also relied on the east african slave trade of zanj brought from east africa through the Red Sea. And not all males were castrated only eunuchs were and women didn't have "fertility issues" they were actually prefered to men that's why most black slaves were actually women used as domestics or concubines and in the islamic world the children born from a muslim and a black concubine was considered free therefore many mulattoes integrated islamic societies and that's why we see a sex-biased pattern when it comes to haplogroups where ssa Mtdna are way more present that the paternal ones :

quote:

---

Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.

---

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB24071

---

quote:

---

Therefore why don't you acknowledge the fact that such non-metric datas show ancient egyptians to be mostly west eurasian :


"Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada (#59), 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh (#60) cluster with Northwest Indians from Punjab and Kashmir (#44), Ancient and Modern Greeks (#48), Scandinavians from Finland, Sweden and Norway (#51, #52), and Modern Germans (#53)."





This is what the paper also says :

quote:

---

The initial split, suggesting the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups.

---

HANIHARA, TSUNEHIKO, HAJIME ISHIDA, AND YUKIO DODO. 2003. Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121:241-251.


Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

quote:

---

The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group , which is also subdivided into two subgroups. One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations. "

---

Ricaut, F. X. and Waelkens, M (2008) "Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements," Human Biology: Vol. 80: Iss. 5, Article 5.

---

quote:

---

Here dental non-metric :

12th Dynasty Northern (Lisht), Roman/Byzantine (El Hesa), and Byzantine (Kharga) Egyptians cluster with other North Africans and Europeans (Poundbury, England).

quote:

---

First, this homogeneity spans both space - from the Canary Islands to Egypt, and time - from recent Arabs and Berbers to West Asian-derived Carthaginians (751?-146 BC), 18th Dynasty (1575-1380 BC) Pharonic Nubians, and 12th Dynasty (1991-1783 BC) Egyptians. A small Capsian sample (ca. 8,500-5,000 BP) from Algeria and Tunisia also exhibits many trait similarities. Late Pleistocene Nubians (14,500-12,500 BP), however, are significantly different. Second, the post-Pleistocene North Africans are similar to Europeans in that they possess numerous dental features involving morphological simplification. Any North African deviations away from this pattern are in the direction of mass-additive Sub-Saharan traits. This finding supports the results of prior genetic-based studies that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians, yet record several Sub-Saharan tendencies. Together, the two findings suggest that a morphologically simple dental pattern is shared by the indigenous peoples of North Africa, as well as Europe and perhaps western Asia, and this pattern has existed for the past 4,000 to perhaps 8,500+/- years."

---

Irish J.D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155


It seems that when discussing Irish's work you missed this :

quote:

---

However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)

---

Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.

---

quote:

---

Here you're generalizing, only a minority of north africans have tropically adapted limbs and such trait isn't exclusive to SSA populations, it's simply an adaptation to hot climate:

quote:

---

The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.

---

Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.

---

quote:

---

You talk about "north africans" be more precise next time then.

---

quote:

---

Euronuts? I'm not european. And there is no whitewashing, we're just acknowledging the fact that some african populations have eurasian ancestry (which can impact their phenotypes/cultures) meanwhile you just want to lump every african pop together under the label of "black" ...so who's really playing against africa here ?

---

quote:

---

Also what do you mean by "foreign" admixture ? It was already there back in the bronze and iron age. Rural berbers aren't really different and they actually lack the additional ssa and natufian ancestry of some urban north africans.

---

quote:

---

I see a contradiction here, you acknowledge this doesn't necessarily make them black but at the same time use this kind of argument to make any ancient population "black" or "african". So at the end you agree that some ANA among natufians doesn't mean much except that they might have north african ancestors which was already hypothesized by Lazaridis.

---

quote:

---

I wasn't making a reference to what C. Coon considered "proto-mediterraneans". I'm talking about much recent works which show that such skulls were already similar to what is found along the med shores today but be careful some capsian skulls had SSA tendencies which they assumed was due to admixture with southern pops.

---

What’s found on Mediterranean shores today like these people?:

Coon’s description of a “gracile Mediterranean” Shluh Berber native to Morocco


Tunisian Berber girls




Ms. Algeria


From a fellow North African:

Why don’t we think of north Africa as part of Africa?
by Iman Amrani


"Every time I have to declare my ethnicity I am reminded that “black African” is seemingly the only category that exists. Being both Algerian and British, I am constantly explaining why I identify as European and African – as though I’m “choosing” to be African, rather than it simply being a fact..."
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:


That's me in NW Europe during winter




And that's me after only 1 week under the mediterranean climate :

---

quote:

---

You then post:

lol I just checked your link and this is what they say:

quote:

---

S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

---

hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though.

---

quote:

---

Your Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

---

Why did you leave out the Kerman Nubians whom Naqadans group with first before the Gizeh folk?!! LOL Of course by your very logic according to the dendogram, Sub-Saharans are intermediate between Western Eurasians like Turks, Greeks, and Scandinavians on one on branch but East Asians like Evenks and Eskimos on another!

quote:

---

And this:

---

quote:

---

And of course this:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Funny, you don't look as dark as the Amazigh people above. Of course I don't deny your identity as Amazigh but I find it funny how you seem to deny high melanation among your people.

---

quote:

---

If one believes certain Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Which brings us back to the topic.

In 5.210 of the Anthologia Palatina, Asclepiades describes Didyme as such:

Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before the fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like rosebuds.

You then question the meaning of their use of 'black' but black in Greek is not the same as 'dark' or 'tanned'.

quote:

---

S. B. Pomeroy (Women in Hellenistic Egypt, 55) unreservedly describes her as an Ethiopian. While possible, A. Cameron, GRBS 31 (1990) 287, noting that Ptolemy VIII characterises her as a "native", that Greeks considered the Egyptians "black", and that Didyme is a very common Egyptian name, concludes, I think correctly, that "we have every right to expect an Egyptian".

F. M. Snowden Jr, GRBS 32 (1991) 239, argues against Cameron that, even though people of Nubian ancestry with black skin were well integrated into Egyptian society, Graeco-Roman practice was to reserve deep black for Ethiopian (Nubian/Meroitic) origin. He speculates that Didyme may have been captured by Ptolemy II in his Meroitic expedition of c. 275, and that she may even, like Verdi's Aida, have been the daughter of an Ethiopian king

---

hahah I knew something was wrong...always the same thing with afrocentrists. Nice try though. 'Ethiopian' was a Greek synonym for Nubian right? But aren't Nubians North Africans and NOT Sub-Saharans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

According to the sources that YOU YOURSELF posted above in previous page!:

Your Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks).

---

Why did you leave out the Kerman Nubians whom Naqadans group with first before the Gizeh folk?!! LOL Of course by your very logic according to the dendogram, Sub-Saharans are intermediate between Western Eurasians like Turks, Greeks, and Scandinavians on one on branch but East Asians like Evenks and Eskimos on another!

quote:

---

And this:

---

^ According to the MDS scaling plot above, Kerma Nubians are closest to Germans in quadrant IV while Somalis are closest to Tagars in quadrant I above them! LOL

quote:

---

And of course this:

---

The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping.

So how does any of this negate Didyme's black skin even IF she was not an ethnic Egyptian but Nubian??? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

We find that the Kulubnarti Nubians were admixed with ~43% Nilotic-related ancestry on average (individual proportions varied between ~36-54%) and the remaining ancestry reflecting a West Eurasian-related gene pool likely introduced into Nubia through Egypt, but ultimately deriving from an ancestry pool like that found in the Bronze and Iron Age Levant. The admixed ancestry at Kulubnarti reflects interactions between genetically-distinct people in northeast Africa spanning almost a millennium, with West Eurasian ancestry disproportionately associated with females, highlighting the impact of female mobility in this region

---

quote:

---

Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic

---

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

---

You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

When do you think?

...Btw. Iberomaurasian wasn't half SSA.
But if they were... what would the other half be in your opinion?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

---

You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.

---

You could be right, but it still doesn't explain why a Greco-Roman writer (contemporary to the time) recognised a complexion gradient in which the Lower Nubians were only "partly more so" black than the Egyptians.

There would have been no need to say this if the Egyptians were just like Coastal Maghrebis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

---

You shouldn't rely on one source only since they often tend to contradict themselves or depending on the era can have different meanings but it's generally accepted that Aethiopians in Africa refer to dark-skinned populations not one specific group.

---

You could be right, but it still doesn't explain why a Greco-Roman writer (contemporary to the time) recognised a complexion gradient in which the Lower Nubians were only "partly more so" black than the Egyptians.

There would have been no need to say this if the Egyptians were just like Coastal Maghrebis.

---

I'm not questionning this actually; that's in line with what we can witness today : the contrast isn't big between upper egyptians and lower nubians. And who claimed egyptians were like coastal maghrebis ? We can maybe claim this for delta egyptians but certainly not upper egyptians who are/were obviously darker.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?

I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa)
It's not being used in scientific journal articles

If you instead use any of these terms:
Taforalt/Afalou
Iberomaurusian
Mechta-Afalou
All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains
it will be more precise
because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites
sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
Hmm, interesting... so you're conceding that the creators of Egyptian civilization (Upper Egyptians) were phenotypically closer to Lower Nubians than they were to Maghrebis? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?

I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa)
It's not being used in scientific journal articles

If you instead use any of these terms:
Taforalt/Afalou
Iberomaurusian
Mechta-Afalou
All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains
it will be more precise
because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites
sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago

---

Thanks for that clarification, lioness.

I essentially want to know if or when the Iberomaurusian type was replaced during the Predynastic period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
Hmm, interesting... so you're conceding that the creators of Egyptian civilization (Upper Egyptians) were phenotypically closer to Lower Nubians than they were to Maghrebis?

---

Yes definitely even though we should be careful because modern lower Nubia seems to be inhabited by lots of different ethnic groups (I've heard about recent west african migrations too) but I admit I'm not a specialist on the region. My point is that ancient upper egyptians looked like their modern descendents and these people overlap a lot with lower nubians (even though the latter looks more black I'd say) and Egypt throughout all its history had the same kind of diversity we can see today with lower egyptians being lighter and more similar to their near eastern neighbours. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?

I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa)
It's not being used in scientific journal articles

If you instead use any of these terms:
Taforalt/Afalou
Iberomaurusian
Mechta-Afalou
All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains
it will be more precise
because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites
sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago

---

Thanks for that clarification, lioness.

I essentially want to know if or when the Iberomaurusian type was replaced during the Predynastic period.

---

Based on what I read it would be the VIth millenium BC for the delta (with the merimda culture) and Naqada II/Gerzean period for southern regions even though eurasian ancestry in north africa is older than this as seen with the IBM samples.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?

I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa)
It's not being used in scientific journal articles

If you instead use any of these terms:
Taforalt/Afalou
Iberomaurusian
Mechta-Afalou
All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains
it will be more precise
because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites
sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago

---

Would you prefer "Ghost North African" instead


Since it was used in a scientific journal and all.


The terms that you want people to use gives no resolution in the contexts in which these Samples are discussed. It's like requesting people use Gobeki_Tepe or Peloponnese instead of EEF. Leave folks alone or ask questions to soothe your confusion.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
Could you be so kind as to recommend the material where this information is contained? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
Could you be so kind as to recommend the material where this information is contained?

---

Yes no problem : Encyclopedia of global archeology, Springer, 2020, Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, pp. 699-700 [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

When do you think?

...Btw. Iberomaurasian wasn't half SSA.
But if they were... what would the other half be in your opinion?

---

I think the shift may have started around 5000 BCE


I seem to recall the Iberomaurusians being 40-50% SSA, but I may be mistaken and would be more than open to a correction.

I think the other component would have been Natufian and Anatolian.

---

quote:

---

"The Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene."

---

quote:

---

"Taforalt could not be modeled as any 2-way mixture. The best model involving Natufians and an African population (Yoruba) could still be strongly rejected (p=2.7e-13). Taforalt could also not be modeled as a 3-way mixture. However, Natufians could be convincingly modeled as a 2-way mixture of ~86% Dzudzuana and ~14% Taforalt (p=0.405) with small standard errors of 1.9%. Thus the affinity between Natufians and Taforalt described in ref.15 may have come about by admixture from a North African/Taforalt-related population into Natufians, rather than by admixture in the opposite direction."

---

quote:

---

"“Western” Near Eastern populations, including Dzudzuana from the Caucasus, belonged to a cline of decreasing Villabruna/increasing deep ancestry: Villabruna → Dzudzuana/Anatolia_N → PPNB → Natufian → Taforalt"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

Where do you live? I suppose the United States because you really seem to know north africans only through internet. Most north africans have my skin color and I'm one of the closest person to ancient guanches genetically.
Your "melanated" north africans have recent black ancestors, when we analyze their genome they got huge amount of yoruba ancestry.

---

quote:

---

Cherrypicking black tunisians won't help you :

quote:

---

If one believes certain Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.

---

L'esclavage en terre d'islam, Malek Chebel, p.227

---

quote:

---

No it wasn't a synonym for "Nubian", it was a synonym for every dark skinned population that's why they also talked about aethiopians in Asia and of course in Africa they clearly made the distinction between Libyans/egyptians and Aethiopians (they also talked about west aethiopians or mixed groups like leucoaethiopians or melanogaetulians. Moreover Sudanese being "north african" is purely arbitrary and conventional (where do you think it got its name btw ? Never heard of "Bilad as-Sudan" ? )

---

quote:

---

So now strangely non-metric datas aren't as accurate as you thought?...

---

I never said that, you dishonest neandernut. The results make sense considering the African admixture among ANF.

From the same source you cited--F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564:

A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).



We see the rest of this African influence in the Aegean area as well.

The Forerunner During the Early Minoan period thepopulation of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...

It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed.
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1. Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".

An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan
Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut p.138

L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."

"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips."

"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were
intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1
Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

Yeah, I don't think all these blacks in the Aegean were slaves from Sub-Sahara.

quote:

---

XD It seems you also forgot lower nubians were mixed

quote:

---

We find that the Kulubnarti Nubians were admixed with ~43% Nilotic-related ancestry on average (individual proportions varied between ~36-54%) and the remaining ancestry reflecting a West Eurasian-related gene pool likely introduced into Nubia through Egypt, but ultimately deriving from an ancestry pool like that found in the Bronze and Iron Age Levant. The admixed ancestry at Kulubnarti reflects interactions between genetically-distinct people in northeast Africa spanning almost a millennium, with West Eurasian ancestry disproportionately associated with females, highlighting the impact of female mobility in this region

---

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1

---

quote:

---

Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic
https://www.academia.edu/33460334/Population_of_Nubia_up_to_the_16th_century_BC

---

First of all the study above is based on metric data. Nonmetric data has debunked the notion of close genetic ties with the Levant via Lachish remains, much less Mesopotamia and India! Genetics has also confirmed this. Plus It's not just Lower Nubians but also Upper Nubians such as al Khiday per Irish and even Ethiopians per Haddow going into Sub-Sahara! Genetics does NOT show invading "Eurasian-Caucasoids" into these areas and neither does archaeology. This is why the 'Hamitic Hypothesis' was debunked decades ago!

By the way, what does any of this have to do with Didyme's black skin?! Whether she is Egyptian or Nubian her complexion is compared to coals. Even if she were part of the "Eurasian-Caucasoid" construct you obsess over, it still won't change her skin color.

Dana Marniche is right, you white Amazigh do have negrophobia. You are in denial of the fact that it is your white skin that is foreign to North Africa NOT black skin! And despite your white skin, you still carry black ancestry from your forefathers who carry E-M81. LOL

You may be a North African but you are still a Neandernut that loves getting his skull bashed in by his own club! LOL
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
This is very interesting. Do you think copper age North Africans would have been less Eurasian than Nile valley inhabitants ~4500 BCE?

Taforalt can be at most to 45% SSA by any metric which defines SSA by living SSA populations... On average they are 25-40% and have been reported 1/3rd SSA.

quote:

---

"The Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene."

---

-10.1126/science.aar8380

...I'm starting to see where the confusion might be coming in. Taforalt can be modeled as loosely as SSA + Natufian. But the fits are bad as Taforalt isn't SSA + Natufian. Natufians can be successfully modeled as an Ancient Caucus-related (Dzudzuana or Satsurblia 29) + Taforalt.

quote:

---

"Taforalt could not be modeled as any 2-way mixture. The best model involving Natufians and an African population (Yoruba) could still be strongly rejected (p=2.7e-13). Taforalt could also not be modeled as a 3-way mixture. However, Natufians could be convincingly modeled as a 2-way mixture of ~86% Dzudzuana and ~14% Taforalt (p=0.405) with small standard errors of 1.9%. Thus the affinity between Natufians and Taforalt described in ref.15 may have come about by admixture from a North African/Taforalt-related population into Natufians, rather than by admixture in the opposite direction."

---

-10.1101/423079

Any model involving Anatolia Neolithic populations as ancestors to Taforalt in Anachronistic and haven't been proposed. The non African/ Non Basal Eurasian portion of Taforalt have been described as Villabruna-related; essentially a unique group of Western hunter-gatherer (WHG).

From the same study above;

quote:

---

"“Western” Near Eastern populations, including Dzudzuana from the Caucasus, belonged to a cline of decreasing Villabruna/increasing deep ancestry: Villabruna → Dzudzuana/Anatolia_N → PPNB → Natufian → Taforalt"

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Wait I'm confused now; IBM got it directly from a villabruna source ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:
What percentage of ANA do the black Egypt crowd expect to find in the upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies? Do people maintain that it's just an issue of resolution and that we simply haven't been able to distinguish ancestral North African (ANA) from Eurasian?

Iberomaurusians seem to have biracial (half SSA), so I'm wondering when this was shifted to majority Eurasian in Egypt.

---

What upcoming Old Kingdom Egyptian mummies?

I recommend not using this term "ANA" (Ancestral North Africa)
It's not being used in scientific journal articles

If you instead use any of these terms:
Taforalt/Afalou
Iberomaurusian
Mechta-Afalou
All basically the same around 15ky or later for human remains
it will be more precise
because the genome is not yet known for the earlier Aterian North African sites
sites of around 150,000 to 20,000 years ago. years ago

---

Would you prefer "Ghost North African" instead

Since it was used in a scientific journal and all.


The terms that you want people to use gives no resolution in the contexts in which these Samples are discussed. It's like requesting people use Gobeki_Tepe or Peloponnese instead of EEF. Leave folks alone or ask questions to soothe your confusion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Actually, the state where I live is quite diverse esepecially in the urban areas. I have seen plenty of North Africans in person and know an Egyptian community. They by and large consider themselves 'brown' and look "mulatto" similar to Puerto-Ricans, Dominicians, and Cubans. Most North Africans don't look like white coastal Berbers or white Guanches, who don't represent all North Africans let alone northeast Africans. Also not all Sub-Saharan ancestry is "Yoruban" anymore than all European ancestry is German.

---

There is barely any berber diaspora in the US and egyptians aren't representative of all north africans, they in general are significantly darker than berbers. Most north africans live along the coast and look like me :





and Guanches are very important since they tell us what profile existed in NW Africa prior to the arab conquest and the trans-saharan slave trade. You think guanches magically appeared in those islands ? They came from what is now Morocco (especially the area around the cap tarfaya). As for "yoruba" I brought it because samples are commonly modelled with it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: *yawn* Enough of the "slave" straw doll argument. Not all Sub-Saharan ancestry in North Africa is due to slavery, and not all black as in dark complexions among North Africans is due to Sub-Saharans. That's the point of my post-- BLACK North Africans. Are you saying Didyme or other Egyptians like Tiye and King Tut are dark colored because of Sub-Saharan slaves??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I thought I told you that "Aethiopian" is of unknown etymology and Greeks merely began using it for very dark skinned persons. 'Aethiopia' originally referred to a country in Asia, most likely the Levant since its capital was Joppa (Yaffa?) home of Princess Andromeda and Memnon son of Eos (Dawn) was their king. The Greeks even described a Leuko-Syrians in the Levant. What does that tell you?

I already told you that the term for black 'melanos' and even 'melanchroe' was used not just for Ethiopians but Egyptians as well!!

Also "Libya" was the Greek designation for Africa in general.

Herodotus ( The Histories, Book 2:104): ..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..."

Ammianus Marcellinus (Book XXII para 16): ...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with askinny desiccated look.

Aristotle: Those who are very black are cowards as, for example, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But the excessively white ones also are cowards

and

Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports his theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations...

Lycinus (describing an Egyptian): 'this boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a plait shows that he is not a freeman.'

Apollodorus (Book II, paras 3 and 4): Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself

Aeschylus ( The Suppliants, vv. 719-20, 745): Danaos describing the Egyptians-- I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.

---

quote:

---

Herodotus lists two newcomer peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes* to the south - inhabiting "Libya" (IV 197, 2). Toponym and ethnicity were thus separated in their geographical connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves above all as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by their lighter skin and other characteristics from the negroid Ethiopians (for a detailed catalog of the "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested throughout antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962).

---

quote:

---

In classical times the earliest detailed account of the partition of the Libyan tribes is found in Herodotus. According to the historian, Libya began west of the Nile, 7 and ran to the Atlantic/ being bordered on the south by the land of the Aethiopians, who were black and woolly-haired. 9

---

quote:

---

As one advanced further to the south of Gaetulian lands, into the Sahara and its northern peripheries, the ethnic labels became fuzzier, more general, and often, since land and space were so vast and indeterminate, they were based more on a phenotyping of personal appearance than of place. The peoples deep to the south in the Sahara were called Aethiopes or peoples whose skin had been burnt to a darker color. (Hölscher 1937; Thompson 1989; Desanges 1993).

---

quote:

---

The name ‘Ethiopia’ was applied by the Greeks to any region in the far south of Africa. The Greek word aithops is related to the word aithos, which means ‘burning heat’, thus the people of ‘Aithiopia’ were described as ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black. An ethnic connotation is already found in Homer (Od. 2.22).

---

quote:

---

Be grateful, you wretch, and offer your wife yourself whatever she has To take, since if she had chosen to let vigorous boys vex and stretch Her belly, you might have been father to an Ethiopian! Your dark heir, Barely visible at dawn, would soon be seen everywhere in the will.

---

quote:

---

Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest". [59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians".

---

quote:

---

The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.

---

quote:

---

As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun.” There is also visual evidence for black slaves in Roman antiquity, including the mosaics at Piazza Armerina.

---

quote:

---

Second, an allele at rs1426654 in the SLC24A5 gene which is one of the most important determinants of light pigmentation in West Eurasians41 is fixed for the derived allele (A) in the Levant_ChL population suggesting that a light skinned phenotype may have been common in this population, although any inferences about skin pigmentation based on allele frequencies observed at a single site need to be viewed with caution42.

---

quote:

---

"We highlight three findings of interest. First, an allele (G) at rs12913832 near the OCA2 gene, with a proven association to blue eye color in individuals of European descent40, has an estimated alternative allele frequency of 49% in the Levant_ChL population, suggesting that the blue-eyed phenotype was common in the Levant_ChL.

---

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9


The closest populations to these bronze age levantines are modern levantines :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I never said that, you dishonest neandernut. The results make sense considering the African admixture among ANF.

From the same source you cited--F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564:

A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).


We see the rest of this African influence in the Aegean area as well.

The Forerunner During the Early Minoan period thepopulation of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and
swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some
steatopygic...

It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of
the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at
the double, a file of black men similarly dressed.
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1. Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".

An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan
Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut p.138

L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."

"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips."

"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were
intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1
Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976[i]

Yeah, I don't think all these blacks in the Aegean were slaves from Sub-Sahara.

---

Such depictions are found in later periods, I don't see what's surprising about it. Greeks and later romans often depicted sudanese/kushites they encounter in Egypt or the in the persian army (your own quotes mention nubian mercenaries) :




but overall they were rare and seen as "exotic" :

quote:

---

it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.

---

quote:

---

"After inspecting the wall near the rampart in Britain… just as he [Severus] was wondering what omen would present itself, an Ethiopian from a military unit, who was famous among buffoons and always a notable joker, met him with a garland of cypress. And when Severus in a rage ordered that the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour and the ominous nature of the garland, [the Ethiopian] by way of jest cried, it is said, “You have been all things, you have conquered all things, now, O conqueror, be a god.” "

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I forgot nothing, but it seems you forgot the study you cite is based on Christian Era Nubians only! LOL And of course their admixture comes from Levantines who are themselves mixed with Africans from the epipaleolithic, so...

quote:

---

[i] Starting from the Late Neolithic, similarities between the Nubians and the populations of Northeast Africa and Asia became even more distinct, which may prove the existence of strong ties derived probably from influx of the Caucasoids from the regions of Levant, Mesopotamia, and India. They were coming to Nubia through the Sinai Peninsula, but probably also through south Saudi Arabia. (…) The population of Nubia was shaped by several migration waves coming from Northwest Africa and from Asia through Sinai and Yemen. All those population movements gained in intensity in the Neolithic[i]
https://www.academia.edu/33460334/Population_of_Nubia_up_to_the_16th_century_BC

---

First of all the study above is based on metric data. Nonmetric data has debunked the notion of close genetic ties with the Levant via Lachish remains, much less Mesopotamia and India! Genetics has also confirmed this. Plus It's not just Lower Nubians but also Upper Nubians such as al Khiday per Irish and even Ethiopians per Haddow going into Sub-Sahara!

You may be a North African but you are still a Neandernut that loves getting his skull bashed in by his own club! LOL [/QB]

---

That's what you said : "The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping."

that's what the graph showed :



Therefore kulubnarti are representative and since when are metric studies/works irrelevant ? Because they don't support your claims ?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudanese:

The term Aethiopia wasn't just a general description for dark skin populations; it seems to have been specifically used on the Kushites with their capital (Meroe) featuring in the description; the Nubae (Nubians) were distinguished from the Aithiopians of Meroe by Strabo.

quote:

---

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

---

The Greco-Roman writers seem to have recognised a complexion gradient in the Nile Valley in which the Aithiopians (Kushites) were the darkest; and the Lower Nubians were "partly moreso" than the Egyptians.

quote:

---

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not.Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

In Manilius' order white complexions from the most
light to the least light are
- Germania
- Gallia
- Hispania
- Romanis
- Graecia
- Syrium


In Manilius' order black complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania

This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.

Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

There is barely any berber diaspora in the US and egyptians aren't representative of all north africans, they in general are significantly darker than berbers. Most north africans live along the coast and look like me:

---

quote:

---

and Guanches are very important since they tell us what profile existed in NW Africa prior to the arab conquest and the trans-saharan slave trade. You think guanches magically appeared in those islands? They came from what is now Morocco (especially the area around the cap tarfaya). As for "yoruba" I brought it because samples are commonly modelled with it.

---

quote:

---

Nobody said or imply it's all from the slave trade but most of it is and you keep spaming black north africans without taking into account their history. Didyme wasn't egyptian, tiye wasn't dark/black (you only say this based on a dark wooden bust) and King tut wasn't dark (you confuse dark skin with the conventional red color in egyptian art and also seem to forget that people can tan)

---

Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.

Where is your proof that Didyme was not Egyptian?? I already showed you proof that Tiye was black not only based on her painted bust but other depictions showing her true dark color and NOT the yellow skin convention. King Tut was NOT "tanned" as not only was he shown with a reddish brown convention on his tomb murals but his painted bust shows him with chocolate dark complexion. Funny how you nobody says his bust or his throne image turned dark with "age"!





LOL Your arguments are totally bankrupt and without substantiation, like all Neandernuts!

quote:

---

I honestly start to be tired of your dishonesty but ok if you want me to spam quotes let's go:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Herodotus lists two newcomer peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes* to the south - inhabiting "Libya" (IV 197, 2). Toponym and ethnicity were thus separated in their geographical connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves above all as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by their lighter skin and other characteristics from the negroid Ethiopians [i] (for a detailed catalog of the "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested throughout antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962). https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/338


[QUOTE]In classical times the earliest detailed account of the partition of the Libyan tribes is found in Herodotus. According to the historian, Libya began west of the Nile, 7 and ran to the Atlantic/ being bordered on the south by the land of the Aethiopians, who were black and woolly-haired. 9

---

O. Bates, The eastern libyans, pp. 51

quote:

---

As one advanced further to the south of Gaetulian lands, into the Sahara and its northern peripheries, the ethnic labels became fuzzier, more general, and often, since land and space were so vast and indeterminate, they were based more on a phenotyping of personal appearance than of place. The peoples deep to the south in the Sahara were called Aethiopes or peoples whose skin had been burnt to a darker color. (Hölscher 1937; Thompson 1989; Desanges 1993).

---

Brent D. Shaw, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 532

quote:

---

The name ‘Ethiopia’ was applied by the Greeks to any region in the far south of Africa. The Greek word aithops is related to the word aithos, which means ‘burning heat’, thus the people of ‘Aithiopia’ were described as ‘burnt–faced’, i.e., sun–burnt, dark–complexioned, black. An ethnic connotation is already found in Homer (Od. 2.22).

---

quote:

---

Be grateful, you wretch, and offer your wife yourself whatever she has To take, since if she had chosen to let vigorous boys vex and stretch Her belly, you might have been father to an Ethiopian! Your dark heir, Barely visible at dawn, would soon be seen everywhere in the will.

---

Juvenal, Satire VI 592-660

quote:

---

Roman poet Marcus Manilius classified dark and black skinned peoples as follows: "Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest". [59] Greek historian Arrian emphasized the differences between Ethiopians, Egyptians and Indians: "southern Indians resemble Ethiopians in that they are black, but not so flat-nosed or woolly-haired; whereas northern Indians are physically more like Egyptians".

---

quote:

---

The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.

---

Manilius, Astronomica 4.724

quote:

---

As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.

---

Strabo, Geography 15.1.13

quote:

---

This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun.” There is also visual evidence for black slaves in Roman antiquity, including the mosaics at Piazza Armerina.

---

Kyle Harper, Slavery in the late roman World AD 275-425, pp. 88

---

quote:

---

So there is no ambiguity when it comes to "aethiops". Now for ancient levantines :


[QUOTE] Second, an allele at rs1426654 in the SLC24A5 gene which is one of the most important determinants of light pigmentation in West Eurasians41 is fixed for the derived allele (A) in the Levant_ChL population suggesting that a light skinned phenotype may have been common in this population, although any inferences about skin pigmentation based on allele frequencies observed at a single site need to be viewed with caution42.

---

quote:

---

The closest populations to these bronze age levantines are modern levantines:

---

quote:

---

Such depictions are found in later periods, I don't see what's surprising about it. Greeks and later romans often depicted sudanese/kushites they encounter in Egypt or the in the persian army (your own quotes mention nubian mercenaries):

---

Are you as illiterate as you are dumb? The sources describe depictions from BRONZE AGE Aegean both Minoan and Mycenaean depictions! Plus, Sudanese/Kushites are STILL North Africans closely related to Egyptians per the sources you cited! LOL
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

---

Negroid caricatures won't help you either.



^ The same kylax with one side depicting Herakles and the other King Busiris of Egypt!

quote:

---

but overall they were rare and seen as "exotic" :

quote:

---

it seems that many Romans were distinctly prejudiced against black people in particular. Black Africans were seen as exotic, and perhaps threateningly alien, and they are seldom if ever mentioned in Roman literature without some negative connotation. Most disturbingly, the historian Appian claims that the military commander Brutus, before the battle of Philippi in 42BC, met an ‘Ethiopian’ outside the gates of his camp: his soldiers instantly hacked the man to pieces, taking his appearance for a bad omen – to the superstitious Roman, black was the colour of death.

---

https://ianjamesross.com/journal/2018/4/28/aethiops-quidam-e-numero-militari-black-africans-in-the-roman-army

---

quote:

---

We see the same behaviour with the north african emperor septimius severus :

quote:

---

"After inspecting the wall near the rampart in Britain… just as he [Severus] was wondering what omen would present itself, an Ethiopian from a military unit, who was famous among buffoons and always a notable joker, met him with a garland of cypress. And when Severus in a rage ordered that the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour and the ominous nature of the garland, [the Ethiopian] by way of jest cried, it is said, “You have been all things, you have conquered all things, now, O conqueror, be a god.” "

---

(Historia Augusta, ‘Septimius Severus’, 22.4-5)

---

quote:

---

That's what you said : "The Nubian Meroites group with other Nubians which in turn is part of the North African grouping."

that's what the graph showed :

---

quote:

---

Therefore kulubnarti are representative and since when are metric studies/works irrelevant ? Because they don't support your claims ?

---

LOL Kulubnarti are NOT Meroites or Kermans that are represented in the sources you cited, nitwit! They are from the very late Christian Period. Second, Metric data is only useful for establishing how a population generally looked like morphologically NOT for establishing genetic relations, the latter is only indicated by nonmetric data!

Speaking of which, nonmetric data has already shown that Egypto-Nubians are NOT closely related to Levantines as you claim!

Berry & Berry (1972) nonmetric crania study:

Egyptian samples are not very distinct from the Nubian sample from Jebel Moya.
They are much more distinct from the Ashanti series (here included as an assumedly
typical negroid population), and the Near Eastern series from Palestine (Lachish) and
Turkey (Figure 3).

And to show you how hetergeneous the Levantine population is, we have from Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits

Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.

and..

Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.

So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:



^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant!
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.

---

I don't want to come to Antalas's defense at all. But, IIRC, Swenet did claim a few years ago that, since many Saharan Berber groups do have substantial West/Central African-related mtDNA lineages combined with Maghrebi Y-DNA lineages like E-M183, their phenotypes may not necessarily be all inherited from the earliest Berber-speakers either. IIRC, his argument was to the effect that they were descended from coastal North African Berbers who ventured into the Sahara and afterward absorbed ancestry from more southerly Africans.

Keep in mind, the common Maghrebi Y-DNA lineage E-M183 appears to have undergone a bottleneck around the time of the Punic wars. This says to me that a lot of the people you see in Northwest African countries today are descended from citizens of the coastal Phoenician colonies who survived the destruction of Carthage and then expanded throughout the region. I believe the trans-Saharan trade, facilitated by the introduction of the dromedary camel, might have brought a lot of these lighter-skinned, mixed-origin Northwest Africans into areas that were formerly the province of darker-skinned locals.

The Carthaginian explorer Hanno the Navigator mentions "hostile Aethiopians" living in the North African mountains upstream of the Lixos river (either the Draa or Loukkos in Morocco) in the sixth century BC. We also have Procopius of Caesarea in 550 AD describing both "black- [or dark-?]skinned" Mauretanii coexisting with other people who were "white in body and very fair-haired" in the region. Northwest Africans in classical antiquity seem to have been no less phenotypically diverse, and maybe even moreso, than they are today.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You are correct. The funny thing is that Maghrebis show more Sub-Saharan autosomal signals than Northeast Africans, yet he insists dark skin among Maghrebis is somehow uncommon except among some slave descendants, while acknowledging that dark/black skin IS more common among Egyptians. But then he turns around and says ancient Egyptians didn't have dark skin!

He says dark skin in Egypt is due to Nubian influence yet his own sources show Nubians are the populations closest in relation to Egyptians! He then says ancient Egyptians were light-skinned EEF descendants from the Levant even though non-metrics show they are not closely related to (most) Levantines save the Natufians.

The guy is obviously confused about the ancestry of his own people let alone those of Egypt!

He is like those negrophobic southern Europeans who are in denial of their black-African ancestry, but since he hails from North Africa it is even worse!

He reminds me of some elite Indians who bought into the theory of fair-skinned 'Aryans' of North India and dark/black 'Dravidians' of the south, even though black types are indigenous to the north as well! Which reminds me.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I never said Egyptians are representative of all North Africans, but YOU seem to insinuate Maghrebis are! Also, this very thread is about a Northeast African-- Egyptian or possible Nubian! You're the one who keeps bringing up Maghrebis!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, this thread is not about Maghrebis. I already cited sources showing that Guanches are not the only Canarians and that there are darker skinned ('black') Canarians also who were the first victims of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.

I'm not even going to go into the history of Morocco whose namesake Moor means 'black'. If you want to discuss that, there are more than plenty of threads in the archives where that issue was already addressed.

---

quote:

---

The people are called by Greek authors the Maurousioi, and Mauri by the Romans who, according to Strabo, XVII, 3, 2, took over the real ethnonym. There has been a long-standing debate about the origin of the name; some people think that it comes from the name of the Aures, which is preceded by a prefix (M): the Moors would be "the people of the mountain.

---

quote:

---

According to Bochart, the Moors, or rather Mauharin, were so called because they were the furthest west, that is to say the most western. Vivien de St-Martin adds in this respect that the merchants of Tyre and Carthage, the first to frequent the extreme shores of the Mediterranean and to found settlements there, referred to the westerners, the people of the sunset, the aborigines of the Atlas, by the name of Maouharia. In the mouth of the Greeks, then the Romans, this name softened changed into Moor and with the Punic suffix into Mauritania.

---

https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1903_num_4_1_7671?q=maroc

The only information I found for "black" is based on the greek word "mavros" : "From Ancient Greek μαυρός (maurós), μαῦρος (maûros, “dark”)."

and it would make sense since north africans are obviously darker than greeks :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Most dark-skinned Berbers especially the Saharan Berbers of noble clans are NOT of slave ancestry. One can just as easily argue that white skin among Amazigh is the result of slave ancestry too since the Moors enslaved many white people, especially women from Iberia! Again go into the archives.

Where is your proof that Didyme was not Egyptian?? I already showed you proof that Tiye was black not only based on her painted bust but other depictions showing her true dark color and NOT the yellow skin convention. King Tut was NOT "tanned" as not only was he shown with a reddish brown convention on his tomb murals but his painted bust shows him with chocolate dark complexion. Funny how you nobody says his bust or his throne image turned dark with "age"!


LOL Your arguments are totally bankrupt and without substantiation, like all Neandernuts!

---

hahaha I'm really baffled by the level of either ignorance or dishonesty ! Saharan berbers do not even make 1% of berbers and they are probably the most racist berbers. They have a whole system of caste and practiced slavery since ancient times :

quote:

---

However, we must note that the Tuaregs use other words to name (always with contempt) the Blacks located south of the Sahara: ésedîf (plur. isédîfen) designates a Black generally in conjunction with aounnan (plur. iounnanen) speaking a Sudanese language: taounant (Songhai language, see J. Clauzel, 1962, for more details and Foucauld, Dict. touareg-français III, p. 1510) or etîfen (plur. itîfenen), ébenher, éhati (plur. ihatan), a black person who speaks neither Arabic nor Berber, while the word akli (plur. iklân) designates the enslaved slave, bella the slave living freely and iderfan, ighawellan, the freedmen."

---

quote:

---

[...] iklan - the word designated the captives and black slaves raided among the sedentary populations of Chad and the Sudan. No one can say enough about the haughtiness of the Tuareg chiefs, their conviction of being a superior race, their sectarianism. It cannot be said enough that their society is deeply unequal and iniquitous. The slave system has been in force in this immense and desolate region since antiquity. [...] "The group of blacksmiths (inhadan), notes Pierre Boilley, was dedicated to industrial work. Attached to a tawset (tribe based on lineage kinship), they were at its service, but were considered neither captives nor dependents. Their status, ambiguous, resembles a caste. Partially untouchable and sometimes despised, they were nevertheless frightened by the magical side of their industry, and everyone was obliged to protect them or at least not to attack them on pain of losing their honor (...) At the bottom of the social ladder, the servants or captives (iklan) were both permanent servants attached to the camp (tent captives), and shepherds, living alone with the herds (dune captives). It should be noted that the servants were, it seems, not very numerous among the Kel Adagh (of Mali), having had to suffer numerous rezzous" [...] Even the freedmen (ederef) continue to suffer the ostracism of the lords. In his Tuareg-French dictionary (1910-1916), Father Charles de Foucauld, however benevolent towards the Tuareg culture, frankly underlines that: "Presently, throughout the Algerian, Moroccan, and Tripolitan Sahara, from the day on which a slave (that is, a Negro, since there are now no other slaves there but Negroes) is freed, he takes the name of hartani, belongs to the class of hartani, and is in every respect considered one of them; the population of hartani thus continually receives new additions of Negro blood. The hartani are free, but they form the lowest class among the free" (vol. II, p.632)."

---

quote:

---

From the critical examination of the prehistoric data and the (socio)linguistic parameters, one draws, if not a demonstration, at least the strong feeling that there is no decisive argument in favor of a global external origin - Near East or East African - of the Berbers and/or their language. On the contrary, all the evidence points to a great stability and continuity of settlement and language in their current area of extension, whose boundaries have changed little over the millennia. The only well-established population movement is the progressive extension towards the south (Sahara and Sahel), which began in the fourth millennium BC. This data incidentally supports our hypothesis that Tuareg is in some respects an evolved "peripheral" form of Berber, having undergone the influence of negro-African substrates/adstrates.

---

https://journals.pan.pl/Content/85220/mainfile.pdf


Genetically they show important amount of west african ancestry compared to other berbers :



and yet these two examples didn't even look that dark to me.

Here "noble" tuareg chiefs :




so why do you think there is such a diversity among them ? Because of white slaves being sent to the sahara ? XD


White skin among berbers was already there 6000 years ago :

quote:

---

IAM samples contain ancestral alleles for pigmentation-associated variants present in SLC24A5 (rs1426654), SLC45A2 (rs16891982), and OCA2 (rs1800401 and 12913832) genes. On the other hand, KEB individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 11).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Quit projecting, Neandernut! The only one dishonest is YOU as I already busted your lyingass multiple times on multiple threads in this blog! If I am dishonest then, prove it and bust me!

All you did cite sources where a modern (biased) scholars simply projects their bias onto Herodotus. Yes Herodotus like all Greeks of his day noted a difference in color and features between peoples of North Africa and those further south, but since when does that translate into a belief in racial difference?! You do realize that the Greeks also noted such differences among themselves and other Europeans!-- noting that they are darker and differ in features from Europeans to their north. Unless you can provide me ancient Greek sources emphatically stating Libyans are of a different race completely from Aethiopians you are just sh*t out your Neander cis-Atlas ass.

And the Greeks used "Aethiops" for "burnt face" but the word itself is not originally Greek but a foreign word. I just told you that the first application was not to Africans at all but peoples in Asia like Memnon and Andromeda, so stop with the dishonest desperation!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: No argument from me on that!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Are you as illiterate as you are dumb? The sources describe depictions from BRONZE AGE Aegean both Minoan and Mycenaean depictions! Plus, Sudanese/Kushites are STILL North Africans closely related to Egyptians per the sources you cited! LOL [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


^ The same kylax with one side depicting Herakles and the other King Busiris of Egypt!

---

quote:

---

In the fifth century, as foreign costume became more popular, generally, Athenian pot painters made conscious departures from visual tradition and what they believed to be accurate traits of Egyptian pharaohs and priests. If dress is a visual marker of ethnicity, then the Bousiris of Figure 24.3 is no longer an ethnic Egyptian—though he clearly is not a Persian, either. This paradox is usually reconciled as Otherness expressed broadly, Egyptian as barbarian and Herakles as Greek. As Bousiris lost his ethnic specificity to the Great King, the once humorous myth became a metaphor for the conflict with Persia (on symbol and allegory in antiquity, see, recently, Smith 2011).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes but 'black' African included Egyptians! and Maure of the Maghreb! LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: You idiot! It wasn't the man's skin color alone as he was part of Ethiopian unit! It was because cypress was symbolic of death and the Egyptian god Ausar (Osiris) was a black mane! So a black man wearing cypress in North African superstition is an omen of death and especially by the words of the soldier which is one of annointment of a divine ruler!

---

I can't believe what I read




there was literally no "ethiopian unit" wtf and this can't be more explicit : "the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour "

Septimius severus was not egyptian nor culturally egyptian. Cypress wasn't symbolic of death in NW africa and and cypress isn't "black" so why does he talk about "ominious color" ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL Kulubnarti are NOT Meroites or Kermans that are represented in the sources you cited, nitwit! They are from the very late Christian Period. Second, Metric data is only useful for establishing how a population generally looked like morphologically NOT for establishing genetic relations, the latter is only indicated by nonmetric data!

Speaking of which, nonmetric data has already shown that Egypto-Nubians are NOT closely related to Levantines as you claim!

Berry & Berry (1972) nonmetric crania study:

Egyptian samples are not very distinct from the Nubian sample from Jebel Moya.
They are much more distinct from the Ashanti series (here included as an assumedly
typical negroid population), and the Near Eastern series from Palestine (Lachish) and
Turkey (Figure 3).

And to show you how hetergeneous the Levantine population is, we have from Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits

Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.

and..

Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.

So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:

^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant! [/QB]

---

Metric datas are totally usefull and meaningfull that's why they are used by almost every forensic study for establishing morphological relations between populations. You do not accept them because they simply don't support your narrative. I already debunked your "levantines wuz africans" we have enough samples from southern levant and they all plot with modern levantines and had SNPs for light skin cherrypicking and using photoshopped pics won't help you.


Three libyan chiefs :


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
I can't believe what I read

---

Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Saharan berbers do not even make 1% of berbers and they are probably the most racist berbers.

---

Saharan countries?

Algeria
Chad
Egypt
Libya
Mali
Mauritania
Morocco
Niger
Sudan
Tunisia

I guess you specifically mean desert people
such as

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Saharan berbers do not even make 1% of berbers and they are probably the most racist berbers.

---

Saharan countries?

Algeria
Chad
Egypt
Libya
Mali
Mauritania
Morocco
Niger
Sudan
Tunisia

I guess you specifically mean desert people
such as

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Saharan countries?

Algeria
Chad
Egyp

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Nicolas Cage (born 1964),has been found to belong to haplogroup E1b1b-M84. His real name is Nicolas Kim Coppola, and his paternal great-grand-father emigrated to the U.S. from the South Italian town of Bernalda in Basilicata. He is the nephew of screenwriter, film director and producer Francis Ford Coppola, who shares the same haplogroup.

---

hahaha thanks for the info [/QB]

---

Which means Coppola like many Italians have African (black) ancestry. Some even have Benin HBS


 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Look North African Neandernut, I don't have the time to debate you on the historical populations of the Maghreb and what they look like because that issue has been covered too many times in this forum. If you want to rehash it, you may do so in one of those past threads. We know the meaning of the word Moor is associated with dark/black skin color which is why the most famous black black saint in Christendom was called Saint Maurice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
So ancient Levantines are not as homogeneous as you believe and neither were all of them the light/fair skinned types you believe:



^ The above portrait is that of a Shasu Bedouin from the Levant!

---

quote:

---

These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population. In addition, SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2, but with Sidon_BA probably having darker skin than Lebanese today from variants in SLC45A2 resulting in darker pigmentation (Table S2).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Look North African Neandernut, I don't have the time to debate you on the historical populations of the Maghreb and what they look like because that issue has been covered too many times in this forum. If you want to rehash it, you may do so in one of those past threads. We know the meaning of the word Moor is associated with dark/black skin color which is why the most famous black black saint in Christendom was called Saint Maurice.

---

I believe the term originally referred to the Mauri people of the area the Romans called Mauretania, but then became synonymous with the color "black" in European discourse sometime during the Middle Ages (later on it would be applied to Muslims of any color). Hence why modern Greek uses mauros to mean "black" instead of the ancient melas.

---

quote:

---

"Moor" and "blackamoor" are two english words that were highly influenced by Iberian and Italian designations of Northern African peoples. Mouro (portuguese) and moro (Castilian, Italian) derived from the Latin maurus, an inhabitant of Mauretania, the Roman designation for the region of Maghreb. The lengthy duration of the iberian reconquista, the reconquest of Muslim territories by local Christian Iberia and northern Europe contributed to the dissemination of the word in the Middle Ages, where "Moor" remained a popular descriptor for medieval Berber and Arab Muslim conquerors of the Iberian peninsula and Sicily. The accounts of the late medieval Portuguese travellers, explorers, and merchants often used "Moor" for Muslim, although distinctions remained: despite such terms as "Arabian Moors" or "Turkish Moors", both were usually described as mouros brancos ("white moors"), while Berber and sub-saharan muslims were frequently distinguished between mouros da terra (Portuguese for "moors from the land") or mouros negros (black moors). [...] This complex relation between ethnicity, geography and religion informed the evolution of "blackamoor", often used alongside region-inflected words like "Niger" or "Ethiop". English grammars and dictionaries of the time made similar associations: "a black more, or a man of Ethiope"; The Negro[sic], which we call the Black-mores.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
By the way...
These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population. In addition, SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2, but with Sidon_BA probably having darker skin than Lebanese today from variants in SLC45A2 resulting in darker pigmentation (Table S2).Makes you wonder about other Bronze Age populations in the region, even some of the ones further from Africa.

---

Your quote says : "SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2"

so probably a similar population to the modern ones with here and there some dark skinned individuals like for example mia khalifa or azmi bishara :



 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Your cherry picked examples of tanned or olive skinned people has no bearing on the term Moor. The meaning of 'Moor' may have changed into 'Muslim', but that does not change its original meaning or rather that used by the Romans and later Byzantines! Moor has initially meant BLACK!

This is why all throughout Roman times through the Medieval period 'Moor' referred to a black person.

The most famous black Christians saint is St. Maurius a.k.a. St. Maurice (circa 250 A.D.). He was a Christian soldier from Thebes Upper Egypt who was martyred for his faith. Maurice was not his actual name but a nickname given by the Romans for his skin color.

Medieval depictions of Maurice:





^ The bottom one is a depiction from Germany. Surprising the Germans of all people would depict an Egyptian man in such a blatant stereotypical "Sub-Saharan" way, but oh well.

Also in Medieval times were legends of black knights from Africa such as Sir Morien who was one of the Knights of the Round Table of Arthurian legend.

Later on, during or after the trans-Atlantic slave trade, one of the Popes (Tukuler remind me again) even made a decree that people should stop using the word "negro" for a black person and instead use the alternative word moro as the former was considered derogative since it refers generally to a black colored object.

Speaking of Spaniards..

The Maghrebi moron brought up the Filipino Moros as an example of the term not being affiliated with black people...

Au contraire!

Moroland was the old Spanish term for the southern most islands of the Philippines especially the island of Mindanao.



The first Spanish settlements in Mindanao occurred in the northeastern area of Kalaga which is home to one of the largest population of Negritos in the Philippines, that being the Mamanwa people! In fact many Filipinos of Mindanao have mixed Negrito ancestry to the point that Mindanaoans are stereotyped as being darker than the average Filipino.





http://www.savageandsoldier.com/articles/asia/Moro.html

The Spaniards had learned this the hard way. It was, in fact, the early Spaniards who gave them the name Moro, for "Moor" because of their intense Islamic faith. But culturally the Moros were Malays mixed with the blood of negro slaves, Filipino tribal hillmen, Chinese, and Dyak pirates the result was a unique and ferociously independent people.

The Spanish conquest and conversion of the Mamanwa was relatively easy as they were only nominally Muslim and not as well militarily organized, but the Sultanates of the southwest was a different matter resulting in the Spanish-Moro wars. By the way, the Mamanwa after their conquest and Christianization became known as the Kongking derived from the Spanish conquista (conquered) and became the inspiration for the background of the story King Kong and his home of Skull Island.

Even in Hispanic American culture like in Cuba an old nickname for frijoles negros y arroz blanco (black beans and white rice) is moros y cristianos (Moors and Christians).

So there is no escaping this unassailable fact.

This brings us back to the original topic which is Didyme.

The Ptolemaic authors blatantly describe her as black which later Roman authors would call maure. She is described as a native of the country of Egypt and NOT Ethiopian. But even if we are to go by your assertion that she was Ethiopian i.e. a Nubian from Kush/Meroe how does that negate the fact that such people are fellow North Africans related to Egyptians per the sources you cite!



And this is why you are done like last week's left overs.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
...
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Your cherry picked examples of tanned or olive skinned people has no bearing on the term Moor. The meaning of 'Moor' may have changed into 'Muslim', but that does not change its original meaning or rather that used by the Romans and later Byzantines! Moor has initially meant BLACK!

This is why all throughout Roman times through the Medieval period 'Moor' referred to a black person.

The most famous black Christians saint is St. Maurius a.k.a. St. Maurice (circa 250 A.D.). He was a Christian soldier from Thebes Upper Egypt who was martyred for his faith. Maurice was not his actual name but a nickname given by the Romans for his skin color.

Medieval depictions of Maurice:





^ The bottom one is a depiction from Germany. Surprising the Germans of all people would depict an Egyptian man in such a blatant stereotypical "Sub-Saharan" way, but oh well.

Also in Medieval times were legends of black knights from Africa such as Sir Morien who was one of the Knights of the Round Table of Arthurian legend.

Later on, during or after the trans-Atlantic slave trade, one of the Popes (Tukuler remind me again) even made a decree that people should stop using the word "negro" for a black person and instead use the alternative word moro as the former was considered derogative since it refers generally to a black colored object.

Speaking of Spaniards..

The Maghrebi moron brought up the Filipino Moros as an example of the term not being affiliated with black people...

Au contraire!

Moroland was the old Spanish term for the southern most islands of the Philippines especially the island of Mindanao.



The first Spanish settlements in Mindanao occurred in the northeastern area of Kalaga which is home to one of the largest population of Negritos in the Philippines, that being the Mamanwa people! In fact many Filipinos of Mindanao have mixed Negrito ancestry to the point that Mindanaoans are stereotyped as being darker than the average Filipino.





http://www.savageandsoldier.com/articles/asia/Moro.html

The Spaniards had learned this the hard way. It was, in fact, the early Spaniards who gave them the name Moro, for "Moor" because of their intense Islamic faith. But culturally the Moros were Malays mixed with the blood of negro slaves, Filipino tribal hillmen, Chinese, and Dyak pirates the result was a unique and ferociously independent people.

The Spanish conquest and conversion of the Mamanwa was relatively easy as they were only nominally Muslim and not as well militarily organized, but the Sultanates of the southwest was a different matter resulting in the Spanish-Moro wars. By the way, the Mamanwa after their conquest and Christianization became known as the Kongking derived from the Spanish conquista (conquered) and became the inspiration for the background of the story King Kong and his home of Skull Island.

Even in Hispanic American culture like in Cuba an old nickname for frijoles negros y arroz blanco (black beans and white rice) is moros y cristianos (Moors and Christians).

So there is no escaping this unassailable fact.

This brings us back to the original topic which is Didyme.

The Ptolemaic authors blatantly describe her as black which later Roman authors would call maure. She is described as a native of the country of Egypt and NOT Ethiopian. But even if we are to go by your assertion that she was Ethiopian i.e. a Nubian from Kush/Meroe how does that negate the fact that such people are fellow North Africans related to Egyptians per the sources you cite!



And this is why you are done like last week's left overs.

---

quote:

---

It is claimed that in the sixteenth century, European colonial powers such as Portugal and Spain wanted to conquer Southeast Asia in order to, first, control the spice trade which was then driving the world economy; and second, in the words of the Portuguese Viceroy, to “[cast] the Moors out of this country [Malacca], and [quench] the fire of this sect of (Muhammad) so that it may never burst out again hereafter.” Armed encounters with the Muslims and military expeditions to Mindanao and Borneo occurred almost as soon as the Spaniards settled in the Islands; historian Cesar Adib Majul charted six stages of the so-called Moro Wars that took place from the mid-1500s to the late 1800s.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The Spanish called them Moro because they were Muslim and many were black and not "Aetas". That is why they used term "Moro" because it is similar to the term Moor. And just like in Spain the term also was extended to all Muslim groups in the Philipines regardless of skin color.

---

Yes that was point. They were called 'Moro' because they were Muslim and black. Who said anything about "Aeta"? The Aeta are the black aborigines of Luzon and other northern islands, 'Moroland' or Mindinao was the homeland of the Mamanwa aborigines who've intermixed with other tribes.

But getting back to the topic of this thread, here is a copy of Snowden's work Asclepiades' Didyme

Again, Snowden tries to reconcile the modern racial classification of "negroid" with the ancient Greco-Roman generic terms for 'black'. There is no evidence that Didyme was 'Ethiopian' that is Nubian and in fact her very name was Egyptian. It all agrees with Greco-Roman descriptions of Egyptian natives as melanchroe or 'black'.
 

---

Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
 
I'm aware of the debate surrounding Cleo's heritage and how she may or may not have looked.

Nonetheless, I'd like to show a contemporary Roman painting of Cleopatra dressed in Greco-Roman garb rather than white and Egyptian attire.




Besides, Macedonian Greeks appear to be less "Mediterranean" in appearance than Athenians, for example. They seem to be on the fairer side in their own ancient artworks.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
There's a recent Cleo thread here:


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001746
 

---

Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There's a recent Cleo thread here:


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001746

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
You could have the same post in both places, just repeat it in that other thread
Or if you want it there and not here, just copy and paste it to the other thread, then after that
I'm not sure if you've been using the edit already.
> The white paper and pencil icon on the upper right
of your post here. Just delete the content and write "please delete", the mod will come around and delete
it later

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The Spanish called them Moro because they were Muslim and many were black and not "Aetas". That is why they used term "Moro" because it is similar to the term Moor. And just like in Spain the term also was extended to all Muslim groups in the Philipines regardless of skin color.

---

Yes that was point. They were called 'Moro' because they were Muslim and black. Who said anything about "Aeta"? The Aeta are the black aborigines of Luzon and other northern islands, 'Moroland' or Mindinao was the homeland of the Mamanwa aborigines who've intermixed with other tribes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The Moro were not Aetas is the point and all aborigines in the Philippines did not have kinky hair as you are implying.

---

quote:

---

The aboriginal Filipinos were diverse with curly, straight and kinky hair as is found among various aborigines in Asia.

---

quote:

---

Black skin in the Philippines did not only exist among Aetas and it has nothing to do with slavery. Moros are not Aetas. The use of the term Moro meaning Moor refers to black skin as relating to the topic of this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Of the fifteen Ptolemaic marriages, ten were
between brother and sister while two were with
a niece or cousin. This meant that even
Cleopatra VII, the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt
and the subject of playwrights, poets, and
movies, was not Egyptian but Macedonian.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Ptolemaic_Dynasty/


=-=-=-=


A Macedonian woman I know clearly distinguishes
Greek from Macedonian. Having a Greek yaya she
wasn't militant about it and agreed to Hellene
cultured Macedonians ruling Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

See Alan Cameron Tale of two Mistresses
- Didyme and Asclepiades

quote:

---

In the ordinary way skin black as coal might be thought to
suggest a negro: a Nubian, say, or Ethiopian. But (as our own
use of the word illustrates) when applied to skin colouring,
black is a very relative term, normally implying no more than
skin significantly darker than the speaker's. Can the name help?
Didyme is not an uncommon name, but it is above all an
*Egyptian name.* 3 Preisigke's Namenbuch (1922) cites well over
one hundred undifferentiated examples of Didymos/Didyme; 4

When we encounter a dark-skinned Didyme in a Hellenistic
epigram, we have every right to expect an Egyptian...

Can we identify such a
woman? It seems not to have been noticed that Ptolemy
Philadelphus had a mistress called Didyme, "one of the native
women" ...... The source is the
Memoirs of the king's great-great-grandson, Ptolemy Euergetes
11. 16 In the mouth of a Ptolemaic king, very conscious of his
Macedonian blood, "native" clearly means Egyptian.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, black skin is a trait of aborigines in general not just Aeta. I never equated all aborigines with Aeta. Slavery was practiced by Muslims in the south who did enslave many aboriginal tribes, though black skin was not equated with slave in the Philippines the way it was in America. Moro is the Spanish term for the Mamanwa because of their black skin that reminded them of the North African Moors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You fail to understand that not all Asians descend from the southern aborigines, in fact the vast majority of East Asians including those in Southeast Asia do NOT. They descend from another branch of more northern Eurasians that separated from the ancestors of Europeans, Northern Indians, and North Eurasians.

---

I dunno, I think they now consider Australasians and Negritos to be part of the same East Eurasian clade as East and Southeast Asians.

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Doug is implying a more direct descent. But that cladistic chart is interesting. By "Negritos" which ones? Because according to that chart the Andamanese Negritos are closer related to East Asians than the Aeta Negritos of the Philippines! Also what about Population Y?
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Doug is implying a more direct descent. But that cladistic chart is interesting. By "Negritos" which ones? Because according to that chart the Andamanese Negritos are closer related to East Asians than the Aeta Negritos of the Philippines! Also what about Population Y?

---

I suspect "Negrito" is simply a catchall label for darker-skinned peoples of South and Southeast Asia that don't necessarily constitute a monophyletic group. However, this paper suggests the various "Negrito" populations are basal to other East Eurasians. They do position the Andamanese differently from the other cladogram I shared earlier though.

As for Population Y, all that I really know about it is that it's a ghost population that contributed ancestry to both Australasian and Native South American peoples, hence explaining the apparent Australasian signal in the latter's genomes. I have yet to hear of this ancestry appearing in Northeast Asian or Native North American genomes, but they could have lived potentially anywhere in eastern Eurasia.

I do remember you suggesting that Population Y is really "Basal East Asian". IIRC, the Red Deer Cave genome from southwestern China was something similar to that, though I have never read of any particular genetic link between that population and Australasians that would identify them as Population Y.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yeah, I prefer if you post on that topic here.

I want to get back to the original topic of Didyme and the Ptolemies. How pure Macedonian were they, and did they have any indigenous Egyptian ancestry?

Here is one source that claims Ptolemy XII was probably born to an Egyptian concubine:

https://livyarrow.org/2016/10/22/ptolemy-xiis-parentage/

Ptolemy XII’s Parentage
Posted on October 22, 2016by Liv Yarrow
Below is a half finished post. Maybe it will be of interest to me again sometime in future. I rather wish before I started writing it I knew about this website:

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Egypt/ptolemies/genealogy.htm

______

PXII is known by the pejorative epithet, Auletes, but ascended the throne originally as: Theos Philopator Philadelphos Neos Dionysos.

Whether PXII was born to a Ptolemaic queen or a Egyptian Concubine is a point of dispute in the ancient sources and among modern scholars. Here’s a use full footnote of references (Siani-Davies 1997):




I suspect that despite their foreign rule, the Ptolemies in order to legitimize themselves to the natives may have consorted with native women even if as concubines. We know Egyptian kings legitimized their rule by marrying iryt-p`ti that is hereditary princesses. While we know the Ptolemaic kings never made native Egyptians as their queens there is evidence to suggest they had native concubines.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You fail to understand that not all Asians descend from the southern aborigines, in fact the vast majority of East Asians including those in Southeast Asia do NOT. They descend from another branch of more northern Eurasians that separated from the ancestors of Europeans, Northern Indians, and North Eurasians.

---

quote:

---

In Greek mythology, Andromeda (/ænˈdrɒmɪdə/; Ancient Greek: Ἀνδρομέδα, romanized: Androméda or Ἀνδρομέδη, Andromédē) is the daughter of Cepheus, the king of Aethiopia, and his wife, Cassiopeia. When Cassiopeia boasts that she is more beautiful than the Nereids, Poseidon sends the sea monster Cetus to ravage the coast of Aethiopia as divine punishment.

---