posted
Suppose we call Yom's "later derived" form which moved into "southwest Asia", pre-proto-Semitic, and say that proto-Semitic developed in situ in "southwest Asia", this would imply that "Semitic" sub-branches share a common ancestor. Knowing how it is proclaimed that proto-Afrasan speaking groups made it to "southwest Asia" some time in the late Upper Paleolithic, and knowing about the Neolithic economy and all, this would mean that proto-Semitic or what have you Neolithic cultural complex words would have made its way to each Semitic sub-branch to some degree or another. The question is, what is known about Ethio-Semitic root words which indicate inheritance from "southwest Asian" or "South Arabian" Neolithic, since the language would have been inherited after or during those developments in the said region? It is a given that people usually come to a new place with their language intact.
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It is, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Proto-Semitic is native to the Northern Horn of Africa or even Africa, since a later derived form (but not yet Proto-Semitic) of Afro-Asiatic could have entered West Asia before evolving into Proto-Semitic.
I don't follow this. If this "later derived" form moved into "southwest Asia", wouldn't this essentially be "proto-Semitic"? And you do realize that by raising the possibility that "proto-Semitic" is of extra-African origin, you are also saying that Ethio-Semitic origins lay outside of Africa? If so, what set of evidence are you going by?
This derived form would be the ancestor of Proto-Semitic as well as another Proto version of another Branch of Afro-Asiatic, such as Berber. It's just a possibility, though. It's more likely that its homeland is in Africa, IMO. And yes, that would mean that its origins lie outside of Africa. I think it was Ehret who most recently stated that Proto-Semitic's homeland may be the areas straddling NE Africa and Sinai rather than wholly in NE Africa. In any case, if its homeland is in Egypt, that too would be outside of the Horn of Africa, no?
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Suppose we call Yom's "later derived" form which moved into "southwest Asia", pre-proto-Semitic, and say that proto-Semitic developed in situ in "southwest Asia", this would imply that "Semitic" sub-branches share a common ancestor. Knowing how it is proclaimed that proto-Afrasan speaking groups made it to "southwest Asia" some time in the late Upper Paleolithic, and knowing about the Neolithic economy and all, this would mean that proto-Semitic or what have you Neolithic cultural complex words would have made its way to each Semitic sub-branch to some degree or another. The question is, what is known about Ethio-Semitic root words which indicate inheritance from "southwest Asian" or "South Arabian" Neolithic, since the language would have been inherited after or during those developments in the said region? It is a given that people usually come to a new place with their language intact.
While an Afro-Asiatic language may have entered Southwest Asia in the Upper Paleolithici, it wouldn't have been Semitic. Semitic probably didn't branch off until ca. 7-8kya, IIRC.
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It is, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Proto-Semitic is native to the Northern Horn of Africa or even Africa, since a later derived form (but not yet Proto-Semitic) of Afro-Asiatic could have entered West Asia before evolving into Proto-Semitic.
I don't follow this. If this "later derived" form moved into "southwest Asia", wouldn't this essentially be "proto-Semitic"? And you do realize that by raising the possibility that "proto-Semitic" is of extra-African origin, you are also saying that Ethio-Semitic origins lay outside of Africa? If so, what set of evidence are you going by?
This derived form would be the ancestor of Proto-Semitic as well as another Proto version of another Branch of Afro-Asiatic, such as Berber. It's just a possibility, though. It's more likely that its homeland is in Africa, IMO. And yes, that would mean that its origins lie outside of Africa. I think it was Ehret who most recently stated that Proto-Semitic's homeland may be the areas straddling NE Africa and Sinai rather than wholly in NE Africa. In any case, if its homeland is in Egypt, that too would be outside of the Horn of Africa, no?
I don't recall Ehret mentioning "straddling NE Africa and Sinai [which is part of northeast Africa in any case]". Can you please cite him on that. I do however, recall him talking about the "early Semites" being of African extraction.
Note also that:
Two other lessons have particular applicability to Afroasiatic. For one, the northerly Afroasiatic languages (Semitic, Berber, Egyptian) appear together to form just one sub-branch of the family, and if relied upon to the exclusion of the other, deeper, branchings of the family, give a misleading picture of overall Afroasiatic reconstruction. In addition, Afroasiatic is a family of much greater time depth than even most of its students realize; its first divergences trace back probably at least 15,000 years ago, not just 8,000 or 9,000 as many believe. - Ehret: Reflections on Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic: Vowels, Tone, Consonants, and Vocabulary
quote:Yom:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Suppose we call Yom's "later derived" form which moved into "southwest Asia", pre-proto-Semitic, and say that proto-Semitic developed in situ in "southwest Asia", this would imply that "Semitic" sub-branches share a common ancestor. Knowing how it is proclaimed that proto-Afrasan speaking groups made it to "southwest Asia" some time in the late Upper Paleolithic, and knowing about the Neolithic economy and all, this would mean that proto-Semitic or what have you Neolithic cultural complex words would have made its way to each Semitic sub-branch to some degree or another. The question is, what is known about Ethio-Semitic root words which indicate inheritance from "southwest Asian" or "South Arabian" Neolithic, since the language would have been inherited after or during those developments in the said region? It is a given that people usually come to a new place with their language intact.
While an Afro-Asiatic language may have entered Southwest Asia in the Upper Paleolithici, it wouldn't have been Semitic. Semitic probably didn't branch off until ca. 7-8kya, IIRC.
I know that it wouldn't have been Semitic proper, but could it not have been 'proto-Semitic'?
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It is, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Proto-Semitic is native to the Northern Horn of Africa or even Africa, since a later derived form (but not yet Proto-Semitic) of Afro-Asiatic could have entered West Asia before evolving into Proto-Semitic.
I don't follow this. If this "later derived" form moved into "southwest Asia", wouldn't this essentially be "proto-Semitic"? And you do realize that by raising the possibility that "proto-Semitic" is of extra-African origin, you are also saying that Ethio-Semitic origins lay outside of Africa? If so, what set of evidence are you going by?
This derived form would be the ancestor of Proto-Semitic as well as another Proto version of another Branch of Afro-Asiatic, such as Berber. It's just a possibility, though. It's more likely that its homeland is in Africa, IMO. And yes, that would mean that its origins lie outside of Africa. I think it was Ehret who most recently stated that Proto-Semitic's homeland may be the areas straddling NE Africa and Sinai rather than wholly in NE Africa. In any case, if its homeland is in Egypt, that too would be outside of the Horn of Africa, no?
I don't recall Ehret mentioning "straddling NE Africa and Sinai [which is part of northeast Africa in any case]". Can you please cite him on that. I do however, recall him talking about the "early Semites" being of African extraction.
Note also that:
Two other lessons have particular applicability to Afroasiatic. For one, the northerly Afroasiatic languages (Semitic, Berber, Egyptian) appear together to form just one sub-branch of the family, and if relied upon to the exclusion of the other, deeper, branchings of the family, give a misleading picture of overall Afroasiatic reconstruction. In addition, Afroasiatic is a family of much greater time depth than even most of its students realize; its first divergences trace back probably at least 15,000 years ago, not just 8,000 or 9,000 as many believe. - Ehret: Reflections on Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic: Vowels, Tone, Consonants, and Vocabulary
Sorry, it was in an article that Ehret contributed to, but in describing Diakonoff's viewpoint.
As to the quotation, the first diverging groups are Omotic and then Chadic, while the rest diverge later, and much later than 15 kya.
quote:
quote:Yom:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Suppose we call Yom's "later derived" form which moved into "southwest Asia", pre-proto-Semitic, and say that proto-Semitic developed in situ in "southwest Asia", this would imply that "Semitic" sub-branches share a common ancestor. Knowing how it is proclaimed that proto-Afrasan speaking groups made it to "southwest Asia" some time in the late Upper Paleolithic, and knowing about the Neolithic economy and all, this would mean that proto-Semitic or what have you Neolithic cultural complex words would have made its way to each Semitic sub-branch to some degree or another. The question is, what is known about Ethio-Semitic root words which indicate inheritance from "southwest Asian" or "South Arabian" Neolithic, since the language would have been inherited after or during those developments in the said region? It is a given that people usually come to a new place with their language intact.
While an Afro-Asiatic language may have entered Southwest Asia in the Upper Paleolithici, it wouldn't have been Semitic. Semitic probably didn't branch off until ca. 7-8kya, IIRC.
I know that it wouldn't have been Semitic proper, but could it not have been 'proto-Semitic'?
Well, no, because Proto-Semitic wouldn't have diverged by then. It would have been a language that was the ancestor of more than just one Afro-Asiatic sub-group (i.e. Semitic and something else). Plus, Proto-Semitic is just the earliest form of Semitic. It's not an earlier language, but a hypothetical ancestor to all Semitic languages. Any form of Afro-Asiatic that had a form that evolved into the Semitic languages can be called a Proto-Semitic language, but the language implied by the term "proto-Semitic" is sort of their "least common multiple" and "lowest common denominator" (since old elements are lost in some languages, and new ones gained in others), i.e. the latest form of the language that was still ancestor to all of the so-called "Semitic languages" classified today.
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Well, no, because Proto-Semitic wouldn't have diverged by then.
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa and by the said timeframe before spilling over to "southwest Asia"?
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Well, no, because Proto-Semitic wouldn't have diverged by then.
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa?
It very well could have, I'm not disputing that. In fact, I consider it more likely given the large diversity in the Ethiopian region and South Arabian region of Semitic, although the East Semitic division is a bit confusing in that regard. But what we were discussing above was an entering of Proto-Semitic in West Asia in the Upper paleolithic, a time when Afro-Asiatic, while it would have developed partially into different sub-groups, would have been at a stage when proto-Semitic had not yet diverged.
IMO, if Proto-Semitic did not develop in the area around the N. Horn of Africa or South Arabia, the most probably area would be NE Africa, given the East - West Semitic division and the lack of evidence for other Afro-Asiatic languages in the region.
BTW, how transversable was the Sinai in the Mesolithic period? What about the Paleolithic and Neolithic ones (did the Natufians spill back into Egypt in significant quantities, because I know there was the diffusion of the "Near eastern crop package" of plants like Barley, emmer Wheat, flax, and lentils into Egypt.
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Well, no, because Proto-Semitic wouldn't have diverged by then.
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa?
It very well could have, I'm not disputing that.
What about the second part of the question you are citing, as mentioned above? What is your answer to that?
quote:Yom:
But what we were discussing above was an entering of Proto-Semitic in West Asia in the Upper paleolithic, a time when Afro-Asiatic, while it would have developed partially into different sub-groups, would have been at a stage when proto-Semitic had not yet diverged.
Why not?...Keeping in mind that the TMRCA range of E-M78 fits well with the timeframe cited in the Ehret piece, 17 ky ago or so, if we are to put some faith in Cruciani et al.'s latest work.
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BTW, how transversable was the Sinai in the Mesolithic period? What about the Paleolithic and Neolithic ones (did the Natufians spill back into Egypt in significant quantities, because I know there was the diffusion of the "Near eastern crop package" of plants like Barley, emmer Wheat, flax, and lentils into Egypt.
By late Upper Paleolithic apparently there was a way to get to the Levant via the Nile Valley, because there is genetic and linguistic evidence of it, at the least.
Egyptian Neolithic agricultural economy was largely independent from their "southwest Asian" neighbours. Therefore, I'm not sure where you are going with that.
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Well, no, because Proto-Semitic wouldn't have diverged by then.
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa?
It very well could have, I'm not disputing that.
What about the second part of the question you are citing, as mentioned above? What is your answer to that?
Did you edit your question, because I don't remember editing your comment (maybe it got accidentally cut off)?
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa and by the said timeframe before spilling over to "southwest Asia"?
^^Again, the only problem is that the current linguistic models for when Semitic diverged do not allow for it (in the Upper Paleolithic, that is). As I said above, I do think that it probably derived in Africa before spreading to West Asia, possibly through multiple dispersal points.
quote:
quote:Yom:
But what we were discussing above was an entering of Proto-Semitic in West Asia in the Upper paleolithic, a time when Afro-Asiatic, while it would have developed partially into different sub-groups, would have been at a stage when proto-Semitic had not yet diverged.
Why not?...Keeping in mind that the TMRCA range of E-M78 fits well with the timeframe cited in the Ehret piece, 17 ky ago or so, if we are to put some faith in Cruciani et al.'s latest work.
Yes, but the genetic dates can vary as much as linguistic ones from study to study (as we learn more). Do you connect the spread of E-M78 according to Cruciani's model (from Upper Egypt in the late Paleolithic) with that of Semitic languages?
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
BTW, how transversable was the Sinai in the Mesolithic period? What about the Paleolithic and Neolithic ones (did the Natufians spill back into Egypt in significant quantities, because I know there was the diffusion of the "Near eastern crop package" of plants like Barley, emmer Wheat, flax, and lentils into Egypt.
By late Upper Paleolithic apparently there was a way to get to the Levant via the Nile Valley, because there is genetic and linguistic evidence of it, at the least.
Egyptian Neolithic agricultural economy was largely independent from their "southwest Asian" neighbours. Therefore, I'm not sure where you are going with that.
Yes, but IIRC, some crops (not the tradition of agriculture, which was already present) were adopted from West Asia. Is this not correct? I was just using it as an example of evidence for some sort of traversability of the Sinai, although I guess a sea route is also possible.
Let's try to go back to the original topic now.
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What about the second part of the question you are citing, as mentioned above? What is your answer to that?
Did you edit your question, because I don't remember editing your comment (maybe it got accidentally cut off)?
Apparently.
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Why couldn't Proto-Semitic have diverged in Africa and by the said timeframe before spilling over to "southwest Asia"?
^^Again, the only problem is that the current linguistic models for when Semitic diverged do not allow for it (in the Upper Paleolithic, that is). As I said above, I do think that it probably derived in Africa before spreading to West Asia, possibly through multiple dispersal points.
If you know that "current linguistic models" for proto-Semitic divergance don't allow for its occurrence in the Upper Paleolithic, surely you should also know why so, right?
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote: Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Yom:
But what we were discussing above was an entering of Proto-Semitic in West Asia in the Upper paleolithic, a time when Afro-Asiatic, while it would have developed partially into different sub-groups, would have been at a stage when proto-Semitic had not yet diverged.
Why not?...Keeping in mind that the TMRCA range of E-M78 fits well with the timeframe cited in the Ehret piece, 17 ky ago or so, if we are to put some faith in Cruciani et al.'s latest work.
Yes, but the genetic dates can vary as much as linguistic ones from study to study (as we learn more). Do you connect the spread of E-M78 according to Cruciani's model (from Upper Egypt in the late Paleolithic) with that of Semitic languages?
The dates don't vary much, as far as I know, and are within the same general range. And yes, I do connect the spread of E-M78 with Afrasan within and outside of the continent. Do you feel otherwise?
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
By late Upper Paleolithic apparently there was a way to get to the Levant via the Nile Valley, because there is genetic and linguistic evidence of it, at the least.
Egyptian Neolithic agricultural economy was largely independent from their "southwest Asian" neighbours. Therefore, I'm not sure where you are going with that.
Yes, but IIRC, some crops (not the tradition of agriculture, which was already present) were adopted from West Asia. Is this not correct?
If it's correct, what is the point?
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
I was just using it as an example of evidence for some sort of traversability of the Sinai, although I guess a sea route is also possible.
Let's try to go back to the original topic now.
This is on-topic, as Ethio-Semitic fits well with the title of the topic.
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posted
^ Interesting. This is all that I wanted to know, when and how Semitic entered Southwest Asia.
Yom, if you believe an early Afrasian langauge entered Asia that gave rise to proto-Semitic and another langauge, then what is this other language exactly? Do you think the spread of this language had anything to do with the spread of Neolithic culture as well as E-M78 as far east as Iran??
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posted
yo my man djehuti, I"ve heard you say that the sabeans were black, or at least black influenced, what sources do you have? get back to me, peace...
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yom, if you believe an early Afrasian langauge entered Asia that gave rise to proto-Semitic and another langauge, then what is this other language exactly? Do you think the spread of this language had anything to do with the spread of Neolithic culture as well as E-M78 as far east as Iran??
I don't believe that, it was just an intellectual exercise. I didn't actually know E-M78 was found in Iran. Seeing as the Southeast corner has a large Arabic-speaking population, however, this could have more to do with its presence than the spread of another Afro-Asiatic language.
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: yo my man djehuti, I"ve heard you say that the sabeans were black, or at least black influenced, what sources do you have? get back to me, peace...
Most of my knowledge on Sabeans or ancient Ethiopians in general come from Yom. He is the one with sources so ask him.
quote:Originally posted by Yom: I don't believe that, it was just an intellectual exercise. I didn't actually know E-M78 was found in Iran. Seeing as the Southeast corner has a large Arabic-speaking population, however, this could have more to do with its presence than the spread of another Afro-Asiatic language.
Ask Mystery or Rasol, but I have seen studies presented before which shows E3b1 being present in Iran. The study was based on samples taken from the general populations of Iran and not on some enclave of Arabic speakers.
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posted
hey babes new info I got from da wiki: apparently the oldest inscription of ESA found yet is in Akkele Guzay, Eritrea, and not in Yemen. What do yall make of this?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: hey babes new info I got from da wiki: apparently the oldest inscription of ESA found yet is in Akkele Guzay, Eritrea, and not in Yemen. What do yall make of this?
I added that info, actually. There are 9th c. BC inscriptions in Akkele Guzay, according to Rodolfo Fattovich, and Norbert Nebes states that the earliest ESA inscriptions of Yemen are in the 8th century BC, but all of these dates are very approximate, and we haven't found the early stages of ESA yet, that I know of. I've heard a couple times of late 2nd millenium or early 1st millenium prototypes having been found a few times, but without citation, so we'll see when those show up where the earliest stage was.
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posted
Well if the earliest inscriptions of the "South Arabian" alphabet were found in East Africa, then what is the motivation behind calling it "South Arabian"?
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posted
^I fear this topic may start to go on a cycle - these questions have already been dealt with from the beginning of this thread, where the following were cited, to show the 'complexity' latent in the reference to the Epigraphic scripts in Ethiopia and Yemen [more or less contemporaneous dates attributed to scripts in either region] as 'South Arabian Epigraphic script'...
"The inscriptions dating from this period in Ethiopia are apparently written in two languages, **pure** Sabaean and another **language** with certain aspects found later in Ge`ez (Schneider 1976).
All the royal inscriptions are in this second, presumably Ethiopian, language. - Stuart Munro-Hay
"...it is a simple fact that the script underlying the Ethiopic was devised for a language richer in consonants than Ge`ez; when some of the consonantal phonemes (**laryngeals, sibilants**) merged in Ge`ez, the letters for them were retained in the script even though the scribes could not know from the sound of a word which letter to write it with..." - P.T. Daniels.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
...the "Epigraphic South Arabian" scripts found in Ethiopia, are written both in pure Sabean, and some unidentified, presumably local Ethiopic language. Why is that? Have you identified some Ethiopic language in "Sabean/ESA" script in South Arabia? If not, Why?
It is important to follow the flow of the discussion from the beginning, even if it had occurred in one's absence, because like I said, it threatens to hinder the progress of the discussion in moving forward, by going back to issues that could have easily been referenced from prior exchanges under the topic. Of course, anything new related - but not brought to attention yet in the ongoing discussion, is quite welcome.
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I don't believe that, it was just an intellectual exercise. I didn't actually know E-M78 was found in Iran. Seeing as the Southeast corner has a large Arabic-speaking population, however, this could have more to do with its presence than the spread of another Afro-Asiatic language.
Ask Mystery or Rasol, but I have seen studies presented before which shows E3b1 being present in Iran. The study was based on samples taken from the general populations of Iran and not on some enclave of Arabic speakers.
Relatively recently...
It is interesting to note that Haplogroup E representatives are found solely in the southern region of Iran. More specifically, E3a-M2 is presented in only two individuals (1.71%) while the frequency for clade E3b1-M35 is higher (5.12%). The subclade E3b1a-M78 accounts for the majority of the Iranian representatives of E3b-M35. - Regueiro et al. 2006
On a side note, downstream derivatives of East African M1 has also been observed in Iran. [See Maitspalu et al. on M lineages]
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^I fear this topic may start to go on a cycle - these questions have already been dealt with from the beginning of this thread, where the following were cited, to show the 'complexity' latent in the reference to the Epigraphic scripts in Ethiopia and Yemen [more or less contemporaneous dates attributed to scripts in either region] as 'South Arabian Epigraphic script'...
"The inscriptions dating from this period in Ethiopia are apparently written in two languages, **pure** Sabaean and another **language** with certain aspects found later in Ge`ez (Schneider 1976).
All the royal inscriptions are in this second, presumably Ethiopian, language. - Stuart Munro-Hay
"...it is a simple fact that the script underlying the Ethiopic was devised for a language richer in consonants than Ge`ez; when some of the consonantal phonemes (**laryngeals, sibilants**) merged in Ge`ez, the letters for them were retained in the script even though the scribes could not know from the sound of a word which letter to write it with..." - P.T. Daniels.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
...the "Epigraphic South Arabian" scripts found in Ethiopia, are written both in pure Sabean, and some unidentified, presumably local Ethiopic language. Why is that? Have you identified some Ethiopic language in "Sabean/ESA" script in South Arabia? If not, Why?
It is important to follow the flow of the discussion from the beginning, even if it had occurred in one's absence, because like I said, it threatens to hinder the progress of the discussion in moving forward, by going back to issues that could have easily been referenced from prior exchanges under the topic. Of course, anything new related - but not brought to attention yet in the ongoing discussion, is quite welcome.
My mistake for passing by the relevant information, and thanx for addressing my question nonetheless..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^I fear this topic may start to go on a cycle - these questions have already been dealt with from the beginning of this thread, where the following were cited, to show the 'complexity' latent in the reference to the Epigraphic scripts in Ethiopia and Yemen [more or less contemporaneous dates attributed to scripts in either region] as 'South Arabian Epigraphic script'...
"The inscriptions dating from this period in Ethiopia are apparently written in two languages, **pure** Sabaean and another **language** with certain aspects found later in Ge`ez (Schneider 1976).
All the royal inscriptions are in this second, presumably Ethiopian, language. - Stuart Munro-Hay
"...it is a simple fact that the script underlying the Ethiopic was devised for a language richer in consonants than Ge`ez; when some of the consonantal phonemes (**laryngeals, sibilants**) merged in Ge`ez, the letters for them were retained in the script even though the scribes could not know from the sound of a word which letter to write it with..." - P.T. Daniels.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
...the "Epigraphic South Arabian" scripts found in Ethiopia, are written both in pure Sabean, and some unidentified, presumably local Ethiopic language. Why is that? Have you identified some Ethiopic language in "Sabean/ESA" script in South Arabia? If not, Why?
It is important to follow the flow of the discussion from the beginning, even if it had occurred in one's absence, because like I said, it threatens to hinder the progress of the discussion in moving forward, by going back to issues that could have easily been referenced from prior exchanges under the topic. Of course, anything new related - but not brought to attention yet in the ongoing discussion, is quite welcome
My mistake for passing by the relevant information, and thanx for addressing my question nonetheless...
Please take note that I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the question [which it is] - just concerned about the prospect of not progressing beyond what had been covered. Personally, I feel there is much more that needs to be learnt about the Epigraphic scripts [ultimately derived from "proto-Sinaitic/proto-Canaanite" type scripture, the oldest examples of which were uncovered in the Upper Nile Valley] in Ethiopia and south Arabia before any seemingly one-sided appellation like "South Arabian", or what have you, is attached, but I can see the rationale behind the inclination to call it such, besides 'diffusionist models' motivated by Eurocentrism to make 'indigenous Africans' receivers of advanced culture rather than agents of such.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^I fear this topic may start to go on a cycle - these questions have already been dealt with from the beginning of this thread, where the following were cited, to show the 'complexity' latent in the reference to the Epigraphic scripts in Ethiopia and Yemen [more or less contemporaneous dates attributed to scripts in either region] as 'South Arabian Epigraphic script'...
"The inscriptions dating from this period in Ethiopia are apparently written in two languages, **pure** Sabaean and another **language** with certain aspects found later in Ge`ez (Schneider 1976).
All the royal inscriptions are in this second, presumably Ethiopian, language. - Stuart Munro-Hay
"...it is a simple fact that the script underlying the Ethiopic was devised for a language richer in consonants than Ge`ez; when some of the consonantal phonemes (**laryngeals, sibilants**) merged in Ge`ez, the letters for them were retained in the script even though the scribes could not know from the sound of a word which letter to write it with..." - P.T. Daniels.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
...the "Epigraphic South Arabian" scripts found in Ethiopia, are written both in pure Sabean, and some unidentified, presumably local Ethiopic language. Why is that? Have you identified some Ethiopic language in "Sabean/ESA" script in South Arabia? If not, Why?
It is important to follow the flow of the discussion from the beginning, even if it had occurred in one's absence, because like I said, it threatens to hinder the progress of the discussion in moving forward, by going back to issues that could have easily been referenced from prior exchanges under the topic. Of course, anything new related - but not brought to attention yet in the ongoing discussion, is quite welcome
My mistake for passing by the relevant information, and thanx for addressing my question nonetheless...
Please take note that I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the question [which it is] - just concerned about the prospect of not progressing beyond what had been covered. Personally, I feel there is much more that needs to be learnt about the Epigraphic scripts [ultimately derived from "proto-Sinaitic/proto-Canaanite" type scripture, the oldest examples of which were uncovered in the Upper Nile Valley] in Ethiopia and south Arabia before any seemingly one-sided appellation like "South Arabian", or what have you, is attached, but I can see the rationale behind the inclination to call it such, besides 'diffusionist models' motivated by Eurocentrism to make 'indigenous Africans' receivers of advanced culture rather than agents of such.
Babe xan you kinda translate what you said?
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^LOL, he said in so many words that there's obviously more to be learned about the early writing scripts of Ethiopia and South Arabia and that he understood the motivation behind my question, but it is useless to be caught up in inane aspects of linguistic nomenclature since it has been discussed already, but he sees the rationale behind calling it such (besides the obvious Eurocentric models of extra-African influence). Mystery Solver is right though, it only stagnates the discussion when one has to go over the same thing repeatedly(unnecessarily)...
Don't want to keep the thread held up on this one question, lol, thanx again M.S., your insight is valuable in me understanding better the complex history and "pre-history" of Ethiopia and her civilizations..
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by nur: May i ask what the axumites looked like appearance wise? To what extent do they resemble the habesha population?
I've never seen a picture of actual axumites. Are there even any available?
There's no question about the ethnic makeup of the Aksumites, nor of the majority of those living in the time of D`mt. There aren't any surviving painted depictions of the Aksumites, but there are some small statues and faces of rulers on coins (and one sketch by Cosmas Indicopleustes).
Look here on the top right corner for an image of Aksumites. The whole body is darkened, except for the face.
Here are a couple images of Aksumite rulers.
Endubis Silver Coin (ca. 270 - first ruler to mint coins)
Aphilas Gold Coin (late 3rd early, 4th c.)
Ousanas Gold Coin (predecessor and possibly father to Ezana)
Ezana Gold Coin (ca. 330-360)
Ezana Silver Coin
And here's a D`mt statue of a woman recovered at Hawulti, Tigray (one of the places where there was actual Sabaean presence). Note the curly hair.
Who may be the same person as the Refesh (actually unvocalized, smaller figure) below, found in close proximity to the statue.
^^This is extremely telling, however, the entire Askumite/Sabean debate(if there even is one) seems to center around culture and modern genetics, but I'm interested in any population studies by way of skeletal remains also and if ancient Dm't and Askumite samples would subsume(craniofacially) modern day Habesha and Cushitic-speakers.(?) There is nothing in history which would argue otherwise, but it would be insightful nonetheless..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^This is extremely telling, however, the entire Askumite/Sabean debate(if there even is one) seems to center around culture and modern genetics, but I'm interested in any population studies by way of skeletal remains also and if ancient Dm't and Askumite samples would subsume(craniofacially) modern day Habesha and Cushitic-speakers.(?) There is nothing in history which would argue otherwise, but it would be insightful nonetheless..
To date I haven't come across any skeletal or cranio-metric study that suggests there was a significant break between prehistoric sub-Saharan East Africans [from the anatomically modern human standpoint] and contemporary ones. This place has always hosted a diversity of phenotypes, as seen even to this day in the region.
Here is a recap of a Hiernaux extract that the poster S. Mohammad [used to post here] brought to my attention:
At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region.
Many authors regard these people as physically akin to the Mediterraneans, hence the label of 'Caucasoids' (or European-like) generally attached to them. However, all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in anumber of body proportions.............
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. Now, as mentioned in Chapter 3, the fossil record tells of tall people with long and narrow heads, faces and noses who lived a few thousand years BC in East Africa at such places as Gamble's Cave in the Kenya Rift Valley and at Olduvai in northern Tanzania. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia, as they usually are in literature.
Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series)
pgs 42-43, 62-63
Going back much further in time: A pleistocene crania bearing 'stereotyped Negro' traits had been uncovered in Ethiopia amongst other early anatomically modern human specimens, given the name 'Herto Man'.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^^So given these conclusions it would seem that a proposal of Sabean migrants who subsequently displaced the Native East African population present(dominating the region) only for they them selves to be displaced/miscegenated again by the local population would seem absurd. I like Hiernaux's objective approach to the data and his "elongated African" concept or observation seems to have shattered many previous mis-conceptions. These elongated Africans found in Kenya/Tanzania obviously must have shared recent common ancestry with Somalis, Ethiopians, and Eriteans/Askumites, in addition to the Tutsi and Burundi, etc since these features are most prevalent on that side of the continent... Good information, I read about Jean Hiernaux through Keita but have found none of his studies.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^So given these conclusions it would seem that a proposal of Sabean migrants who subsequently displaced the Native East African population present(dominating the region) only for they them selves to be displaced/miscegenated again by the local population would seem absurd. I like Hiernaux's objective approach to the data and his "elongated African" concept or observation seems to have shattered many previous mis-conceptions. These elongated Africans found in Kenya/Tanzania obviously must have shared recent common ancestry with Somalis, Ethiopians, and Eriteans/Askumites, in addition to the Tutsi and Burundi, etc since these features are most prevalent on that side of the continent...
Actually, they are just as prevalent in west Africa, as is the so-called 'broad type' just as prevalent in east Africa. These appellations in my opinion, are still very misleading, because they still suggest fixed archetypes; reality is much more complex than that. Given as a description for limb/body proportions ratio, as Hiernaux had done elsewhere, would be the more appropriate use of the term, rather than as a suggestive term for cranio-metric morphology.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Actually, they are just as prevalent in west Africa, as is the so-called 'broad type' just as prevalent in east Africa. These appellations in my opinion, are still very misleading, because they still suggest fixed archetypes; reality is much more complex than that.
To demonstrate this, as a mere exemplary recap from Hiernaux himself:
"Compared to the Elongated East Africans, the four Nilotic groups are taller and a narrower head in both absolute and relative terms(their cephalic index is much lower), also a lower and wider nose resulting in a much higher nasal index." - Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa", 1975 p.147.
^Based on his description, certainly the said Nilotics by head size and body height would be considered "elongated" in body proportions; however, as he proclaimed, they had relatively wider nasal index. On the other hand, by head size and perhaps body stature the so-called 'elongated Africans' wouldn't have been relatively as 'elongated' as the Nilotic guys in question, now would they? LOL. This is a relatively simple example, but people can and do come with any combination of phenotype that don't necessarily fit seemingly fixed archetypes, as implied by typological appellation. But like I said earlier, as a description for body proportions, 'elongated' makes more sense imo...as it seems to be the case in the following Hiernaux presentation, save for the bit about the singling-out of Nilotes amongst groups with such 'elongated' body build. Also, not all the so-called 'elongated people' of what he dubs 'East Africa' are 'intermediate' in skin color; some non-Nilotic speaking groups there actually do approach the dark hue seen amongst certain Nilotic-speaking groups. Moreover, 'Nilotes' too are largely east Africans - just to name yet another one of those few things wrong about Hiernaux's 1975 presentation. I think I know the rationale behind doing so, but that doesn't make it right anyway:
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ...in addition to the Tutsi and Burundi, etc since these features are most prevalent on that side of the continent...
Mind you, the Tutsi who technically inhabit 'central Africa' are not from the Horn region or originally East Africa for that matter as genetics shows they predominantly carry West African lineages, besides the fact that they speak Bantu languages.
There are also peoples in West Africa proper who have such "elongated" features like the Woodabe, Tuareg, etc.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^Ok, I think that I understand the concept a lot better now, and also didn't take into consideration what you point out about the Tutsi, so please excuse my misinterpretation, you're right. And I agree Mystery Solver, the term would seem to apply more fittingly in terms of body proportions, instead of one subset of the various phenotypes indigenous to Africa. I see the slight flaws in his approach. Thanx..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Also, not all the so-called 'elongated people' of what he dubs 'East Africa' are 'intermediate' in skin color; some non-Nilotic speaking groups there actually do approach the dark hue seen amongst certain Nilotic-speaking groups. Moreover, 'Nilotes' too are largely east Africans - just to name yet another one of those few things wrong about Hiernaux's 1975 presentation. I think I know the rationale behind doing so, but that doesn't make it right anyway...
^Notwithstanding, Hiernaux also says this...
Recap:
"A quick glance at Figures 4a and 4b will show that the relatively shortest noses occurs only in the tropics, and observation confirms the fact that the nasal bridges of the peoples in question are low as well as being short. At first it seems as though no consistent sense could be made from such an observation since such people as the inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question ***include some of the blackest people in the world*** with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height." - Hiernaux, 1975.
And in reference to the aforementioned skeletal remains found in East Africa, it is worth repeating Hiernaux on:
"There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia, as they usually are in lierature." - Hiernaux, 1975.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^^^Points well taken and these are great observations.. Suffice to say that there is no need for any invasion models given careful observation of these data. No wonder we see misinterpresation in previous population studies who found varying degrees of 'broad' and 'elongated' traits, and interpreted it as admixture with "Caucasoids"... The use of such terms may be one of the biggest scientific blunders in anthropology..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Bump...don't want this thread to get deleted from being too old.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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actually what people also need to realize is that the Arabian Peninsula has ALWAYS had a significant amount of African influence throughout its history. The EASIEST way to see this is to look at the Tihama region along Arabias western coast along the Red Sea from Yemen to Saudi Arabia.
quote: Saudi Arabian man in love with his camel (Tihama). Tihama is a narrow coastal region of Arabia on the Red Sea. It is currently divided between Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Unlike the inland region, it is made up of sand dunes and plains and is largely arid except a few oases.
Doug m, what exactly makes you think these people are African derived? Since They are not, they are the indigenous people of southern arabia
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I didn't say they were derived. I said influenced. If you want a clearer definition of what influenced means then I would say that starting from the first OOA migrations to the present day, migrants from Africa have had an impact on the populations of Arabia, in different forms over a long period of time. For example, many observers have noted the round grass huts of the region as a sign of African influence in the Tihama region.
Derived is a meaningless term especially since ALL humans ultimately derive from OOA migrants who left Africa about 50,000 years ago. That does not mean all these populations have had direct African influence since then.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:many observers have noted the round grass huts of the region as a sign of African influence in the Tihama region.
so huts didn't exist in southern arabia before africans entered the place? All warm environments have used huts one time or another, indians, south east asians, sri lankese, mash arabs of iraq, pacific islanders etc. all use huts, this is not an african invention if that's what you mean. Those people above are more south arabian than the yemenis of levantine origin, they are basically the indigenous people of southern arabia which you can also see by their skin color which correlates with the hot environment.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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We know that East Africans made their way into Tihama region, because there is archaeological evidence of it. > Discussion link
...My current hypothesis is that during the late 3rd millennium BC, in response to a drying climate, people were on the move. Some settled on Dahlak island. The people who settled in al-Midamman **crossed the Red Sea and settled in the Tihama** where they found a window of opportunity for life as result of the **massive flooding that was emanating from the highlands**, from a landscape out of control. When checks and balances were put in place in the highlands, as part of the landscape stabilisation for which Yemen became synonymous, the people at the coast were forced to move on. Groups may have found their way into the Jawf, and the Hadramawt. They retained some of their specific lithic technology, but generally otherwise **became integrated** with the rest of the South Arabian populations. - Edward Keall
Also see Fattovich's work.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:many observers have noted the round grass huts of the region as a sign of African influence in the Tihama region.
so huts didn't exist in southern arabia before africans entered the place? All warm environments have used huts one time or another, indians, south east asians, sri lankese, mash arabs of iraq, pacific islanders etc. all use huts, this is not an african invention if that's what you mean. Those people above are more south arabian than the yemenis of levantine origin, they are basically the indigenous people of southern arabia which you can also see by their skin color which correlates with the hot environment.
I said that many, including my self, have noted that the straw huts AND BLACK AFRICANS are signs of African influence in this region of Arabia. Tihama is the CLOSEST part of Arabia to Africa. Therefore, THOSE FACTS make it clear that there is/has been African influence. NOBODY said that ALL STRAW/GRASS huts in Arabia are AFRICAN or that ALL dark skinned people in Arabia ARE AFRICANS.
quote:Doug M wrote: I said that many, including my self, have noted that the straw huts AND BLACK AFRICANS are signs of African influence in this region of Arabia. Tihama is the CLOSEST part of Arabia to Africa. Therefore, THOSE FACTS make it clear that there is/has been African influence. NOBODY said that ALL STRAW/GRASS huts in Arabia are AFRICAN or that ALL dark skinned people in Arabia ARE AFRICANS.
Well the people you just posted are obviously "black" africans and not just african influence but completly african. I was referring to the other pic of Mehra you posted and they are the indigenous people of south arabia who speak himyarati languages. You need to learn how to distinguish between people and people instead of letting your judgment be guided by simply skin colour. Those you posted above and those previously are not the same people. A madagascarn and a australian aborigine in sydney are distinct ethnicities and not the same people just because they both live in sydney and look different than the european australians. You do this alot, i've seen this before how narrow minded and limited your discourse is when it comes to people and places, you have to see things in their proper context instead of making generalized conclusions from simple variables such as dark skin or straw huts.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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You need pictures because you OBVIOUSLY have no concept of the history of Arabia that would ALLOW you to accept that Africans have had substantial influence in parts of Arabia, WITHOUT images of people who LOOK "completely" African. That is the point. What I said was true and the first set of photos was not INTENDED to show ONLY Africans but the types of people found in that part of Arabia. Again, you have nothing to refute what I originally said, which is that Africa has had substantial influence on parts of Arabia, which is a FACT, whether I post pictures of African people in Tihama or not. The Mehra are not a monolithic group UNTOUCHED by anyone else. They have variation among them just as any other population. Some of them have substantial recent African ancestry and others don't. What I said covers that and isn't an example of narrow mindedness but a lack of reading comprehension and common sense among those who don't want to accept the obvious.
Since you cannot even show how what I said was NOT demonstrably false, it again shows how really what you are saying has no value or credibility other than to distract.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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I'd assumed that it was pretty much a given that there was mutual interaction (including genetic) between Southern Arabia and NorthEastern Africa given the shared proximity of the two regions.
quote:Approximately 10 miles separate the Horn of Africa from the Arabian Peninsula at Bab-el-Mandeb (the Gate of Tears). Both historic and archaeological evidence indicate tight cultural connections, over millennia, between these two regions. High-resolution phylogenetic analysis of 270 Ethiopian and 115 Yemeni mitochondrial DNAs was performed in a worldwide context, to explore gene flow across the Red and Arabian Seas. Nine distinct subclades, including three newly defined ones, were found to characterize entirely the variation of Ethiopian and Yemeni L3 lineages. Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages and therefore cluster together in a multidimensional scaling plot between Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African populations. Phylogeographic identification of potential founder haplotypes revealed that approximately one-half of haplogroup L0-L5 lineages in Yemenis have close or matching counterparts in southeastern Africans, compared with a minor share in Ethiopians. Newly defined clade L6, the most frequent haplogroup in Yemenis, showed no close matches among 3,000 African samples. These results highlight the complexity of Ethiopian and Yemeni genetic heritage and are consistent with the introduction of maternal lineages into the South Arabian gene pool from different source populations of East Africa. A high proportion of Ethiopian lineages, significantly more abundant in the northeast of that country, trace their western Eurasian origin in haplogroup N through assorted gene flow at different times and involving different source populations.
posted
^ The point is we always hear about Arabian influence on East Africa (specifically Ethiopia) in academia, but not enough is heard about the opposite-- African influence in Arabia. And that there was such an influence was clear and is being made even more clearer with genetic studies as well as more archaeological findings.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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for yonis, and yom and any arabic speaker الكتاب : المفصل في تاريخ العرب قبل الإسلام
quote:الفصل الحادي والاربعون العرب وألحبش صلات العرب بالحبشة صلات قديمة معروفة ترجع إلى ما قبل الميلاد. فبين السواحل الافريقية المقابلة لجزيرة العرب وبين السواحل العربية اتصال وثيق قديم، وتبادل بين السكان. اذ هاجر العرب الجنوبيون إلىالسواحل الافريقية وكونوا لهم مستوطنات هناك، وهاجر الأفارقة إلى العربية الجنوبية، وحكموها مرارا، وقد كان آخر حكم لهم عليها قبل الإسلام بأمد قصير
The history of the arabs before islam sec. 41 entitled the arabs and the abbysinians the connections of the arabs with the abbysinians has been a famous connection since ancient times b.c.. The african coast faces the arabian coast and the arabian coast has had binding ancient contacts and populations from each coast traveling back and forth. either southern arabians traveling to the african coast and taken residency or citizenship or the africans migrating to southern arabia ruling it at times ,even a short spell before the revelation of islam, they ruled southern arabia for a short time.
quote:ويظهر من الكتابات الحبشية، أن الحبش كانوا في العربية الجنوبية في القرن الأول للميلاد. وقد كانوا فيها في القرن ألثاني أيضا. ويظهر أنهم كانوا قد استولوا على السواحل الغربية، وهي سواحل قريبة من الساحل الافريقي ومن الممكن للسفن الوصول اليها وانزال الجنود بها. كما استولوا على الأرضين المسماة ب Kinaidokopitae في جغرافية "بطلميوس".
it appears in the book of the abbysinians that the abbysinians were in the arabian peninsula in the first century a.d. and they conquered the western coast in the 2nd century which was the closest to their african coast and possibly they sent soldiers by boat to mobilize and station the soldiers just like they conquered the kinaidokopitae a name found in the ptolemy geography.
quote:وورد في نص من النصوص الحبشية أن ملك "أكسوم" كان قد أخضع السواحل المقابلة لساحل مملكته، وذلك بارساله قوات برية وبحرية تغلبت على ملوك تلك السواحل من ال "Arrhabite " "الأرحب" "الارحبية" "أرحب" Kinaidokolpite، وأجبرتهم على دفع الجزية، وعلى العيش بسلام في البر وفي البحر. ويرى بعض الباحثين إن المراد ب "Arrhabite" بدو الحجاز. وأن Kinaidokolpite هم "كنانة". وأن السواحل التي استولى الأحباش عليها تمتد من موضع "لويكه كومه" Leuke Kome "القرية البيضاء" إلى أرض السبئيين.
it is found in the books of the abbysinians that the king of aksum subjagated the coast to add to his kingdom and that he did this by expeditions of ground troops and navy winning over existing indigenous kingdoms called arrhabite forcing them to pay tribute and forcing the Kinaidokolpite to live in peace in the land and on the sea. some researchers say that the kinaidokolpites are bedouin arabs and the arrhabites are the tribe of kinana( famous adnani tribe from which prophet muhammad (peace be upon him) descends) and that the abbysinians conquered an area called lueke kome( white village) havining their domain reach from lueke kome of the wstern hijaz all the way to the land of the sabeans.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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^If you wish to post only for Arabic speakers in an English-speaking forum, why not just send it to the said people by 'private message'. This thread was opened to further the understanding and participation of any and all, and not just a select few. Doing otherwise, makes it look like you have something to hide and/or have little confidence in what you're trying to propagate.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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One of the more informative threads on Egyptsearch. For that reason, I take it upon my self to bump it up once more.
"You'll come, then, to a land at the world's end where tribes of black people live, where the Fountains of the Sun gush and the River Aithiops flows. Follow that river's bank, till you come upon sheer waterfall plunging down from the Byline Hills, hills bubbling the sweet blessed waters of the Nile." - Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Hey Yom, where the have you been? You sure picked a hell of time to come back from your hiatus as this forum is infested with idiotic trolls like the one above me.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't get it either lol
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