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Author Topic: Don't touch means don't touch, DAMN YOU!
seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
But the signs say "don't touch". And I don't think many Muslims find pharonic or even Roman artifacts and statutes "holy".

I can understand a bunch of old funny duddies from the UK finding pharonic artifacts "holy" but not everyday Egyptians.

Again I found the Americans far more respectful of exhibits, like how the Americans behaved at the Cheops or Khufu (I can't remember which) Pyramid. Americans made sure they didn't wear camisoles or tank tops, very few wore shorts. While the Europeans of any age were dressed like on a Carribean vacation. Walking down into the pyramid I noticed Americans were quiet and respected the space of others. While Europeans laughed (taking up valuable oxygen) and made jokes, also some pretty darn skinny europeans know how to take up more than half of the walkway's space and that is one narrow walkway to begin with. Americans sat in the chamber longer and reflected. Europeans basically just turned around and went out again. I didn't see one single Egyptian besides my SIL, her employee who went with us and our driver actually make it into the chamber room, all the other Egyptians turned around in the walk way.

At the Solar Boat Museum I noticed Americans didn't walk in front of others when they were taking photos (same with the Asians, very polite). Again the Asians pointed and chattered and reflected on the significance of the exhibits. Europeans horsed around and didn't pay attention to the exhibits.

You don't have to touch things to get meaningful information. You can do your research on the objects before actually coming to the Museum or you can actually listen to the guide you hired instead of carrying on several simultaneous conversations instead of listening to his well rehearsed and researched information.

Touch isn't the only sense a person has.

I'm never one to take Sonos side on anything but she is right here...I noticed the same thing (and not just because I'm American). I think it might be a respect thing we have in the states, and we are taught from an early age to respect and be considerate of others around (strangers especially), but I did notice the same thing while visiting sites in Egypt.
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People, you need to understand how much the pyramids and the artifacts mean to Egyptians in general. Nothing! Entrance to the museum is cheap, most Egyptians come there to let some hours get by, watch tourists, they don't have the understanding or interest in historical things since the pharaonic times don't have anything to do with Islam. Pyramids and everyhing else are there for the tourists, basta, its a big money making business. It's simple as that.
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seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by Sashyra88:
quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Sashyra, Americans can be spotted by their voices too! You don't think the deal I illustrated above is astonishingly cheap?

Albino, ouch, I too have had a wisdom tooth removed, it is painful. I hope you feel better soon.

Ohh,sure.Of course if i speak everybody will know ì`m a foreigner,but exactly American,i seriously doubt it.On the first place,my native language is Spanish,not English,so i have certain accent.I also try to dress sort of modestly.Not that i will wear veil or djeelaba/caftan,but in a western loose fitting clothes.
But anyway,i am from the Caribbean,so no American pale,nor black either.Heyy,black is a race,i have no problem with it,just in case!
[Cool]
I`m more in the Caribbean side of brown skinned,heheheehh! [Big Grin]

Gotta Agree with Sashyra, I'm american but I am of mixed culture (latin and caucasian), not all of us look alike either. However, I have noticed since being in Egypt that very few know I am American, even Europeans ask where I'm from EXACTLY, so it's always so easy to tell. If you're Amerian I think it's easier to spot an American, and the same goes for British, we recognize each other more easily and especially in America you can tell the minute someone opens their mouths which part of the country they're from....I'm a Southern Belle personally [Razz]
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henita
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While traveling in Spain and Morocco i`ve been asked (before hearing me talk,of course)if i`m Moroccan,so you can imagine.
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seabreeze
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the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]
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Connie Anderson
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar:
quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Albino,

Jumping to ridiculous assumptions seems remarkably easy for you. Your laughable assertion that I am trying to sell something illustrates this...as does your claim to speak for all American travellers. You don't. You speak only for yourself.

Clearly, you are unable to see beyond your individual needs, as you apply your personal circumstances to a general debate. I mentioned the Nile cruise to illustrate only that there are good value packages out there for American tourists. Never have I suggested that this is the only holiday option available.

People are free to buy their tours/flights from anyone they please. If you choose not to shop around and trust only American agents, don't whine when you get a bad deal.

Your fixation with Mormons, is as inexplicable as the incoherent direction of your responses.

You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. Learn the difference.

OUCH!!!
bet that hurt more than the tooth!! yikes............. [Big Grin]

Ahh,

No it just comes to prove that Europeans just see Americans as dollar signs and won't respect you no matter how much money you spend.

I was a assistant to a professional in an investment firm who had to make business trips to Europe constantly. He hated Europe and how they treated him to no avail. He is an extremely nice guy who speaks 4 languages and has a degree in "European History" with an MBA, so I isn't just out of the sticks.

You can't trust these Europeans. Americans who havn't spent alot of time around Europeans look up to Europeans because that is where the heritage is from, so they assume its a homecoming and a natural bond between two white people. Obviously the family history hasn't been handed down to the current generation because white people left Europe for obvious reasons.

A family friend taught French in High School for many years and switched to teaching Spanish just a few years ago because of the torment of organizing those blasted "France Tours". Year over Year he had to deal directly with the French in their lanaguage (He knew Germans had the luxury of the French conversing in German to them) and watching no matter how hard he tried bus schedules, train schedules and hotel accomodations were always botched just to make a nightmare of coordination for the French Instruction. Alot of high schools are switching to Spanish, Chinese and Arabic courses and dropping French. I wouldn't doubt those class trips "French Tours" were being botched on purpose so often it has driven the interest off.

SeeWhatYouSee jumped on this thread in an effort to sell Americans something. Using my unpopularity with the ES addicted, the more vocal usernames, not the lurchers (and I wouldn't doubt the lurchers have more money to spend on Nile Cruises and don't have to do FOTs (Family Obligated Trips)). I tried to explain to her that she is beating a dead horse, but no avail. And I got the "Tigerweed" and "ExpatinCAI" type responses I needed to pepper the association with SeeWhatYouSee to prove my point about the European mindset.

Americans who havn't been overseas much will always look to any European as a trustworthy family archeotype, and association of heritage. These Americans don't carry on family history because there is nothing to be proud of and don't remember what Europe was really like. I am not easily pursuaded in this manner.

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tootifrooti
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medication time? [Big Grin]
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quote:
Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:


You can't trust these Europeans.

Oh, Sonomod, you are just simply a bitter XENOPHOBE ! Hey I've learnt that word today on ES, you see this forum is enriching my English vocabulary!

Somehow your talking is amusing. I might book you for an evening for entertaining! [Big Grin]

PS: If you see how Americans are buying overseas here, what kind of horrendous rents they are agreeing to pay etc. - of course others will take advantage of them. Once I talked to a military doctor and she told me how friendly the Germans are and she feels very welcomed. Well, I told her she's just buying an illusion, people in general are much reserved even sometimes rude even to each other so why would she think that they are friendly with the Americans. Just because they are paying any price and that's why people are friendly to her incl. her landlord. You should see how Germans stare at us if I walk with my husband in uniform through the big city even if they should be used to seing that since WWII is over and the Americans built up facilities everywhere in this area! Personally I believe the US troops have been too long in Germany (the Russian troops f.e. left my hometown within 12 month the wall came down), they should finally leave and close up too, the cold war is over long time ago, but that's not what America wants for strategic/logistic reasons and also many people making profits through existence of US troops and their families inside Germany; it's a give and take.

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Connie Anderson
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar:
medication time? [Big Grin]

You know what they say about Doctor's wifes.....

If you grew up in a neighborhood with doctors to know. [Wink]

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tootifrooti
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in english please sono [Big Grin]
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Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
You should see how Germans stare at us if I walk with my husband in uniform through the big city even if they should be used to seing that since WWII is over and the Americans built up facilities everywhere in this area!

Maybe that doesn't have that much to do with your husband wearing an American uniform but with the uniform in general.
I don't stare if I see someone in a uniform on the street in Germany, but I do find it weird, probably because it's rather unusual.

Just a thought ...

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MK the Most Interlectual
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
People, you need to understand how much the pyramids and the artifacts mean to Egyptians in general. Nothing! Entrance to the museum is cheap, most Egyptians come there to let some hours get by, watch tourists, they don't have the understanding or interest in historical things since the pharaonic times don't have anything to do with Islam. Pyramids and everyhing else are there for the tourists, basta, its a big money making business. It's simple as that.

Nothing is as simple as your way of thinking! Stop getting your info from your bawwab!
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quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
People, you need to understand how much the pyramids and the artifacts mean to Egyptians in general. Nothing! Entrance to the museum is cheap, most Egyptians come there to let some hours get by, watch tourists, they don't have the understanding or interest in historical things since the pharaonic times don't have anything to do with Islam. Pyramids and everyhing else are there for the tourists, basta, its a big money making business. It's simple as that.

Nothing is as simple as your way of thinking! Stop getting your info from your bawwab!
Don't underestimate your father's intelligence!
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SayWhatYouSee
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Albino, if I were to sell you anything, it would be a year long stay in 'The Priory' or some other appropriate institution. I contributed to the thread, using an EGYPTIAN tour agency, to illustrate the deals available to American travellers. From this, you read that I am here to sell Americans tours? Tsk, tsk, tsk...those meds really do need reviewing.

I have absolutely no connection to the Egyptian Tourist Board, nor any other industry designed to sell to tourists. A simple internet search, illustrated my point. The first Northern American deal that came up - was offered by a well known Egyptian company.

Inventing lies won't stop me contributing to this forum, so carry on, it makes you happy. Behaving rationally might just make you happier, but that might prove too challenging, right now.

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MK the Most Interlectual
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
People, you need to understand how much the pyramids and the artifacts mean to Egyptians in general. Nothing! Entrance to the museum is cheap, most Egyptians come there to let some hours get by, watch tourists, they don't have the understanding or interest in historical things since the pharaonic times don't have anything to do with Islam. Pyramids and everyhing else are there for the tourists, basta, its a big money making business. It's simple as that.

Nothing is as simple as your way of thinking! Stop getting your info from your bawwab!
Don't underestimate your father's intelligence!
You wanna talk about fathers ya shatrah? I knew you were low enough to get that low. My father was an internationally recognized scientist in his field.

Now tell me what your father did please?

Amen ya Auto Amen!!

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Snapdragon
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Well when you are not taught any manners or discipline as a child then you grow up that way as well. Egyptian children are not disciplined at all. They scream, fight, throw things at each other, say the nastiest words possible, shove and push and simply put it is their parents fault for not teaching them the proper manners they needed. I have seen grown adult men and women make fun of a down syndrome child at a wedding party. Not one or two but a group of them. Of course along with a dozen children. What did they think he was a clown or something?
Didn't someone teach them to behave and be respectful of other people even with disabilities? No.....


True story:

Egyptian man marries European woman and they have a daughter. They live in Europe. After several years, they all go to Egypt to visit his family. They stay about 3 weeks. Upon their return, the school of the little girl calls and asks that the parents go to her school. They are appalled when they find out that she has been hitting and biting other children, calling them bad names and throwing dirt on them in the play area. The parents ask her where she learned this and why she was doing it. She replied with "all the kids in Egypt were doing it." Needless to say, his wife refuses to take the little girl back to Egypt. She was very well mannered prior to this.


quote:
Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
Alright when a sign at the "Egypt Museum" says don't touch the artifact, the artifact's case; and the sign is in English and Arabic why do Egyptians and tourists alike still need to touch the artifacts, cases and statues?

What in the hell is wrong with people?

Worse yet, why do parents encourage their son to pose next to a statue with his arm around the shoulders of the statue when clearly the whole Egyptian family is literate?

What the hell is wrong with people?


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seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon:
Well when you are not taught any manners or discipline as a child then you grow up that way as well. Egyptian children are not disciplined at all. They scream, fight, throw things at each other, say the nastiest words possible, shove and push and simply put it is their parents fault for not teaching them the proper manners they needed. I have seen grown adult men and women make fun of a down syndrome child at a wedding party. Not one or two but a group of them. Of course along with a dozen children. What did they think he was a clown or something?
Didn't someone teach them to behave and be respectful of other people even with disabilities? No.....



quote:
Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
Alright when a sign at the "Egypt Museum" says don't touch the artifact, the artifact's case; and the sign is in English and Arabic why do Egyptians and tourists alike still need to touch the artifacts, cases and statues?

What in the hell is wrong with people?

Worse yet, why do parents encourage their son to pose next to a statue with his arm around the shoulders of the statue when clearly the whole Egyptian family is literate?

What the hell is wrong with people?


That is so rude...
What were they saying about him/her??
WHY?? as if the child has any fault in how God made them?? [Frown]

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tootifrooti
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Snapdragon, you dont have to look far above you to see a good example of one egyptian woman at her best.


[Roll Eyes]

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MK the Most Interlectual
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar:
Snapdragon, you dont have to look far above you to see a good example of one egyptian woman at her best.


Diagnosis: OCD!

3ala ra2yek! Medication time!

[Big Grin]

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tootifrooti
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I think we have a case of CJD here. [Roll Eyes]

Scientist sperm rattling around with all that other sperm...............ahhhhhhhhh maybe a farmers daughter, sharm sharks, at least that would account for the language................

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Snapdragon
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Yeah exactly. I feel sorry for her poor little child. I don't read her posts but I knew what you meant.... [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar:
Snapdragon, you dont have to look far above you to see a good example of one egyptian woman at her best.


[Roll Eyes]


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tootifrooti
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sad isn't it............... Something real organically wrong going on in that particular head.
I think she has a fixation on me, it is quite disturbing actually...............
[Confused]

If Sammy ignores it then we have no choice to fight fire with fire.......

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seabreeze
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ohhhhhhhhhhhh FIRE !!??? [Big Grin]
I like to use aerosol hairspray with FIRE !!! [Big Grin]

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tootifrooti
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Sonomod, I apologise in advance if your thread gets deleted, just like yesterdays driving thread. Once she gets her teeth back in I am sure she will be using her favourite phrases...........but hopefully she will lay off and stop following me around like a Basset Hound........ [Smile] [Roll Eyes]
your thread was a goodun.

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MK the Most Interlectual
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon:
Yeah exactly. I feel sorry for her poor little child. I don't read her posts but I knew what you meant.... [Smile]

Feel sorry for your own self ya shatrah. How is selling belly dance clothes on e-bay going by the way? Does it buy you some fool and gargeer?

I didn't marry and moved to live in Tanta , of all holes!! Soh!

And you are a big time liar, you spy on EN all day and read all my posts so I blocked your ass ya 7elwah! And you're killing your profile trying to find out what went wrong.. While I'm sitting here watching in amusement and ROFL at your stupidity!

Ya Horse, imagine, the father of your child's holy figure is his mother's pedophile.

Talk about feeling sorry for the kids.
[Roll Eyes]

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tootifrooti
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Sonomod, I apologise in advance if your thread gets deleted, just like yesterdays driving thread. Once she gets her teeth back in I am sure she will be using her favourite phrases...........but hopefully she will lay off and stop following me around like a Basset Hound........ [Smile] [Roll Eyes]
your thread was a goodun.

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seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon:
Yeah exactly. I feel sorry for her poor little child. I don't read her posts but I knew what you meant.... [Smile]

the father of your child's holy figure is his mother's pedophile.


I totally don't get this then again I haven't had my evening coffee yet....
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MK the Most Interlectual
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quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon:
Yeah exactly. I feel sorry for her poor little child. I don't read her posts but I knew what you meant.... [Smile]

the father of your child's holy figure is his mother's pedophile.


I totally don't get this then again I haven't had my evening coffee yet....
She bitched for ages that Mohamed is a pedophile and "had she known before she converted"!!!

But Tanta made her go wacko, so I'll keep quiet if she shuts it!

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tootifrooti
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Just as I predicted the thread will be pulled,
anyway let her rant on she is exposing herself perfectly............ [Roll Eyes]

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foreignluvr
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quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]

The thread is still here and I don't personally see any reason for it to be deleted!!
Smuckers, I wanted to tell you I saw ur pic in another forum and you are such a doll!!! U have
a lucky husband!!! [Smile]

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Connie Anderson
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quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon:
Well when you are not taught any manners or discipline as a child then you grow up that way as well. Egyptian children are not disciplined at all. They scream, fight, throw things at each other, say the nastiest words possible, shove and push and simply put it is their parents fault for not teaching them the proper manners they needed. I have seen grown adult men and women make fun of a down syndrome child at a wedding party. Not one or two but a group of them. Of course along with a dozen children. What did they think he was a clown or something?
Didn't someone teach them to behave and be respectful of other people even with disabilities? No.....



quote:
Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
Alright when a sign at the "Egypt Museum" says don't touch the artifact, the artifact's case; and the sign is in English and Arabic why do Egyptians and tourists alike still need to touch the artifacts, cases and statues?

What in the hell is wrong with people?

Worse yet, why do parents encourage their son to pose next to a statue with his arm around the shoulders of the statue when clearly the whole Egyptian family is literate?

What the hell is wrong with people?


That is so rude...
What were they saying about him/her??
WHY?? as if the child has any fault in how God made them?? [Frown]

Actually that attitude towards mentally delayed children is changing. I think a few Egyptian celebs have openly celebrated their down syndrome children in public and rallied behind disability causes in general.

Things are changing, but it takes time.

There was a movie a while back with Nourhan and Mahmoud Abdel Aziz (father and daughter characters) and one of the neighbor kids was mentally delayed. Nourhan's father Aziz coaxed this child to spy on his daughter constantly to check on her whereabouts (she had a boyfriend in the hood) and she was careful not to berate this spy kid for his disability because its unIslamic.

Was a major, major social change motivator.

It takes the media and major celebs to focus social change and this subplot was a candid way of going about it.

I did see a morbidly obese down syndrome boy at Montazah Palace Beach. He was overall well-behaved and very kind. But his family had a very special way with him that was mentally/emotionally healthy.

It will change. And Egyptians find westerners as role models (unfortunately) and its our khawagaa responsibility to be gentle and supportive. It was just 2 decades ago when we breached this same issue. Be kind and they will be kind. [Wink]

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tootifrooti
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quote:
Originally posted by foreignluvr:
quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]

The thread is still here and I don't personally see any reason for it to be deleted!!
Smuckers, I wanted to tell you I saw ur pic in another forum and you are such a doll!!! U have
a lucky husband!!! [Smile]

Smuckers is not only a doll in looks but in real life. I spent the day at her home in shebin with her and her husband and they are the most friendly, welcoming, and devoted couple. Your darling habibi rocks!!!...thanks again for that day.......we had a lovely time.xx
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MK the Most Interlectual
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A dumb friend in deed is a dumb friend indeed.

- Monoofi Proverb [Big Grin]

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seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by foreignluvr:
quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]

The thread is still here and I don't personally see any reason for it to be deleted!!
Smuckers, I wanted to tell you I saw ur pic in another forum and you are such a doll!!! U have
a lucky husband!!! [Smile]

(((blushing)))) thanks! [Big Grin] (I'm pretty lucky myself actually, he's so kind). [Smile]
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seabreeze
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar:
quote:
Originally posted by foreignluvr:
quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]

The thread is still here and I don't personally see any reason for it to be deleted!!
Smuckers, I wanted to tell you I saw ur pic in another forum and you are such a doll!!! U have
a lucky husband!!! [Smile]

Smuckers is not only a doll in looks but in real life. I spent the day at her home in shebin with her and her husband and they are the most friendly, welcoming, and devoted couple. Your darling habibi rocks!!!...thanks again for that day.......we had a lovely time.xx
ohhh I'm so sorry I JUST NOW saw this! Of course you're welcome anytime and we had fun having new people over. We plan to get out to Cairo again in the next month or so let's meet up again. ((hugs))
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'aqila
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Vandals sack glories of ancient Egypt

By Chris Hastings, Arts and Media Editor
(Filed: 08/10/2006)


A pair of sniggering schoolboys grope the breasts of a 3,500-year-old bust of an Egyptian queen, while a sarcophagus dating from 1500BC is used as a makeshift rubbish bin and a climbing frame.

It sounds like a scene from Carry On Cleo, but it's just another day at the British Museum.

Pupils clamour to touch an artefact in the Egyptian collection
School children clamour to touch an artefact in the Egyptian collection

The boorishness and schoolboy antics frequently witnessed in the museum, have forced curators to put the bulk of their precious Egyptian collection behind glass. Documents reveal that staff fear deteriorating public behaviour is putting exhibits at risk.

The papers also show that curators have pleaded in vain with management to put "Do Not Touch" signs in Gallery 4, which houses much of the Egyptian collection.

In a letter in February, Jeffrey Spencer, the deputy keeper of the collection, sympathises with an outraged member of the public who witnessed 17 inappropriate incidents on a single visit.

"All the curators of this department would agree with you that visitor behaviour has deteriorated steadily over the last 20 years," Mr Spencer lamented. "Once it was accepted not to touch ancient objects — now everyone feels it is their right to do so. This department has requested that 'Do Not Touch' signs be placed in the gallery but this is a matter not under the control of the curators and it has not been implemented.

"When this gallery was last redesigned in 1980, public behaviour was better and many exhibits were shown free of glass, but it has been necessary to add more glass screens in front of the more vulnerable objects as time has passed.

"This is unfortunate for visibility but essential for long-term preservation. The visitor services staff in the gallery try to restrict touching of the objects, but this is one of the most crowded galleries in the museum and staff resources are being stretched." The museum's Egyptian collection, which is the largest outside Cairo, is the institution's most popular section and the prime attraction for 90 per cent of the six million people who visit each year.

The museum prides itself on being one of the world's richest cultural assets and the disclosure that artefacts are at risk will prove highly -embarrassing.

When another visitor was outraged to see litter strewn in the coffins, John Taylor, the assistant keeper of the Egyptian collection, sent an apologetic response in April last year.

"Unfortunately, with thousands of visitors passing through each day, litter sometimes accumulates quickly and the sarcophagi in Gallery 4 require frequent attention," he wrote.

The increased reliance on glass will prove controversial and officials will come under pressure to explain why there are not more signs in some of the galleries warning visitors not to get too close to exhibits.

But anger about public behaviour is not confined to the Egyptian galleries.

Other papers reveal friction between staff members working in the neo-classical King's Library, at the museum. One female member of staff complained to a warder about people touching sculptures and other treasures but his reaction left her bemused and angry. According to an email she sent to a senior colleague last year, the warder "pretty much told me to bog off as [the visitors] were allowed to touch everything in the King's Library." Her colleague admits to being "a bit worried" by the warder's response.

Back at the Egyptian collection, some exhibits, including the Rosetta Stone, which was the key to unlocking Linear B script, have always been protected behind glass. Yet the popularity of such artefacts can have dire consequences for treasures placed nearby.

According to another internal email, the statue of a god in the shape of a baboon had to be removed to save it from damage caused by the Rosetta Stone crowds. Augusta McMahon, lecturer in archaeology at Cambridge University, said: "It is very sad the British Museum is having to do this. I became an archaeologist because of fantastic museum experiences I had as a child. It will separate the people from the artefacts and probably lessen their appreciation of the works."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/08/nmuseum08.xml

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*The Dark Angel* aka CAT
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quote:
Originally posted by Snoozer:
quote:
Originally posted by Madame M.:
In Dec. when it was fairly chilly even in Cairo the Euros were dressed for the beach. It was too dayum cold for that! I found that the Americans, Canadians, and Asians were far more respectable clothing wise than the Euros.

I agree with that....the European tourists I saw at Giza, Egyptian Museum, Citadel, around the Nile, etc., were all wearing tiny halter tops and short-shorts. And some men with above-the-knee shorts. (that's just wrong anywhere).

I wouldn't think twice about that attire here at home, but it was really weird to see women wearing that in Cairo, after everything the tourguide books say about dressing at least somewhat modestly. (But again, I never saw Americans, so who knows what they might have been wearing).

I am glad tourists were wearing that..... it is not hard after all.... ofcourse they will get dirty looks from street sex harrassers but they do understand that they are foreigners .....

Egyptians are actaully more accepting of foreigners wearing like that than of Egyptians. They do understand that this is normal for foreigners & so they accept it

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*The Dark Angel* aka CAT
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quote:
Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
the locals here always think I'm Lebanese or Syrian before I speak ROFL [Big Grin]

Then you must be a hot mamma [Big Grin]

I like Lebanese or Syrian looking people ... they are too white or too dark..... they combine the eastern & the western look

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*The Dark Angel* aka CAT
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[Originally posted by foreignluvr:

Smuckers, I wanted to tell you I saw ur pic in another forum and you are such a doll!!! U have
a lucky husband!!! [Smile]
[/QUOTE]

Where is that picture? [Big Grin]

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Graf_Genn
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon: Well when you are not taught any manners or discipline as a child then you grow up that way as well. Egyptian children are not disciplined at all. They scream, fight, throw things at each other, say the nastiest words possible, shove and push and simply put it is their parents fault for not teaching them the proper manners they needed. I have seen grown adult men and women make fun of a down syndrome child at a wedding party. Not one or two but a group of them. Of course along with a dozen children. What did they think he was a clown or something?
Didn't someone teach them to behave and be respectful of other people even with disabilities? No.....


True story:

Egyptian man marries European woman and they have a daughter. They live in Europe. After several years, they all go to Egypt to visit his family. They stay about 3 weeks. Upon their return, the school of the little girl calls and asks that the parents go to her school. They are appalled when they find out that she has been hitting and biting other children, calling them bad names and throwing dirt on them in the play area. The parents ask her where she learned this and why she was doing it. She replied with "all the kids in Egypt were doing it." Needless to say, his wife refuses to take the little girl back to Egypt. She was very well mannered prior to this.

What inclines someone to write rubbish like this?

The general majority of children in Egypt fear their parents, and they know that bad behaviour at school usually earns them a few bruises at home. Even young adults in college know that disagreeing with a parent while looking them in the eyes is a bad move to make. Go witness children in the malls or boutiques in Egypt and note how many are behaving as described.

Regarding teasing delayed or disabled children, Egypt has ancient cultural indications of actually honoring them, as well as Christian and Islamic precedent for treating them respectfully.

Don't be fooled by these sensational stories, and definitely don't believe they are the norm.

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al-Kahina
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quote:
Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
quote:
Originally posted by Snapdragon: Well when you are not taught any manners or discipline as a child then you grow up that way as well. Egyptian children are not disciplined at all. They scream, fight, throw things at each other, say the nastiest words possible, shove and push and simply put it is their parents fault for not teaching them the proper manners they needed. I have seen grown adult men and women make fun of a down syndrome child at a wedding party. Not one or two but a group of them. Of course along with a dozen children. What did they think he was a clown or something?
Didn't someone teach them to behave and be respectful of other people even with disabilities? No.....


True story:

Egyptian man marries European woman and they have a daughter. They live in Europe. After several years, they all go to Egypt to visit his family. They stay about 3 weeks. Upon their return, the school of the little girl calls and asks that the parents go to her school. They are appalled when they find out that she has been hitting and biting other children, calling them bad names and throwing dirt on them in the play area. The parents ask her where she learned this and why she was doing it. She replied with "all the kids in Egypt were doing it." Needless to say, his wife refuses to take the little girl back to Egypt. She was very well mannered prior to this.

What inclines someone to write rubbish like this?

The general majority of children in Egypt fear their parents, and they know that bad behaviour at school usually earns them a few bruises at home. Even young adults in college know that disagreeing with a parent while looking them in the eyes is a bad move to make. Go witness children in the malls or boutiques in Egypt and note how many are behaving as described.

Regarding teasing delayed or disabled children, Egypt has ancient cultural indications of actually honoring them, as well as Christian and Islamic precedent for treating them respectfully.

Don't be fooled by these sensational stories, and definitely don't believe they are the norm.

Regarding teasing delayed or disabled children, Egypt has ancient cultural indications of actually honoring them, as well as Christian and Islamic precedent for treating them respectfully.

What was considered recordable as Pharoahnic or Priestly attitudes 2,600 years ago doesn't affect contemporary attitudes today. Neither what is precepts of Islamic or Christian scriptural litergy consummated in popular beliefs of modern Egyptians, nor any other culture.

What you are refering to as "ideal" is not in practice per se.

and when it comes to fearing their parents, not in my in-law's family. I don't remember hearing my ex-husband ever commenting that he fears, or feared his father. But rather respected him and didn't want to disappoint him ever. Same with his mother.

What I notice is its not a matter of behaving correctly , but its a matter of doing what is socially acceptable. It might not be the right thing to do, or what God wants us to do; but if the act or transgression doesn't impart gossip or wrath from the community then go ahead and do it. Its a really what you can get away with, not so much of doing the right thing.

Snapdragon is living in Tanta. My ex-husbnd went to college in Tanta and spent most of his childhood in Alex. Boys will be Boys is tantamount in both communities and he basically wasn't expected to be anything but a monster for most of his growing up and young adult years. But somehow now that he is a parent and a husband he is expected to behave in a fashion that will be a good example of Muslim piety. I say its a little to late to enforce "ideal" behavior.

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Graf_Genn
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What I am referring to is a precedent for a behaviour that is easily observed in Egypt. Where it comes from, other than just usual ethics. Do you believe that the common practice in Egypt is making fun of disabled people? Or, that Egyptians generally have more patience with disabled people than they do the usual people? No Egyptian that I have observed thought it was our common practice to ridicule children with birth defects, so snapdragon's experience which she is claiming the norm is far from general practice *and* far from ideals.

Your ex-husband may not have feared his father but ask him about how the general children will be dealt with if they are throwing dirt, biting, and hitting the other students in Egypt. I was a good kid just out of personality so I never developed a fear of my father, but I know my own culture well enough to know the norms.
Regardless, your husband still respected his father enough to not want to disappoint him which is also a point to substantiate how uncommon and unlikely snapdragon's "observations" are.

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al-Kahina
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quote:
Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
What I am referring to is a precedent for a behaviour that is easily observed in Egypt. Where it comes from, other than just usual ethics. Do you believe that the common practice in Egypt is making fun of disabled people? Or, that Egyptians generally have more patience with disabled people than they do the usual people? No Egyptian that I have observed thought it was our common practice to ridicule children with birth defects, so snapdragon's experience which she is claiming the norm is far from general practice *and* far from ideals.

Your ex-husband may not have feared his father but ask him about how the general children will be dealt with if they are throwing dirt, biting, and hitting the other students in Egypt. I was a good kid just out of personality so I never developed a fear of my father, but I know my own culture well enough to know the norms.
Regardless, your husband still respected his father enough to not want to disappoint him which is also a point to substantiate how uncommon and unlikely snapdragon's "observations" are.

Actually I have only seen one example of treating disabled child well or near equally. And that was an Egyptian family living abroad.

Most of the time I have seen disabled children and people being treated in a horrible fashion.

Possibly you are surrounded by naturally good people or Egyptians residing abroad?

And no my ex-husband was one of the biggest trouble-makers in his family and hometown. He was made "boss" of the classroom for years because the other children feared him so. He became a deviant as a teenager is on a long journey back to decency. He hasn't arrived quite yet. [Big Grin]

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Graf_Genn
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Haha, I guess it is possible, though I suspect quite unlikely, that people simply decide to be on their best behaviour whenever I am near [Razz] I think it is more likely that people notice something very rare and then paint all Egyptians with the same brush. I wouldn't expect anyone to think that the people I admire are the norm, just as I think it is unwise for others to think those that set the worst example are the face of the general public.

I think all points have been explored regarding this, so although you are rather pleasant, I will be moving on. Good day [Big Grin]

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Screw you
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There's a school in Egypt that caters for 'special' children with down's and other disabilities, they were treated better than the other children in the school, the parents and teachers were wonderful.

--------------------
Learn from the past.
Live in the present.
Hope for the future.

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al-Kahina
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quote:
Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
I think it is more likely that people notice something very rare and then paint all Egyptians with the same brush.

Very well rehearsed line, just worded differently. [Roll Eyes]

No what I have seen isn't rare, its common.

Graf_Genn, I know you want to see your people as flawless or at least vastly superior to the west. But even then why can't you see the social ills for what they are?

Is it because you don't find fault with these social ills?

Is it because it doesn't affect you, so it doesn't exist?

Loads of social problems don't affect me:

Drug abuse
teenage pregnancy
sexual abuse/assualt
DUI
corporate crime (so far, keep my fingers crossed)
panhandling
and an assortment of others I can't recall because it doesn't affect me. But its not like I won't admit that these social ills are in my society.

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Graf_Genn
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quote:
Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha:

No what I have seen isn't rare, its common.

Graf_Genn, I know you want to see your people as flawless or at least vastly superior to the west. But even then why can't you see the social ills for what they are?

Is it because you don't find fault with these social ills?

Is it because it doesn't affect you, so it doesn't exist?

Loads of social problems don't affect me:

Drug abuse
teenage pregnancy
sexual abuse/assualt
DUI
corporate crime (so far, keep my fingers crossed)
panhandling
and an assortment of others I can't recall because it doesn't affect me. But its not like I won't admit that these social ills are in my society. [/QB]

[Frown] Sigh... after I bid you good day you summon me back just to misrepresent me? Let me start by saying I never made any comparison to any Western nations, so please don't make further attempts to pass this off as a superiority issue.
I have also never said Egyptian culture was perfect, what I said was Egyptian kids biting eachother in school and wedding parties making fun disabled kids was rare. In fact I have never even heard of anything like this except from 2 foreign women with relations to Egyptians in Tanta. Forgive me if I don't take your word over my own experience when representing the entirety of my people. "All the children in Egypt were doing this." Sorry, I think this is rubbish. My own childhood in Egypt, and that of family and friends refutes this. Add to that a party of adults ridiculing a disabled child? I still have reservations about it, but maybe snapdragon did indeed see this, but to try and convince me that this is the standard in Egypt is... [Roll Eyes] not really worthy of more response.

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al-Kahina
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quote:
Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
quote:
Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha:

No what I have seen isn't rare, its common.

Graf_Genn, I know you want to see your people as flawless or at least vastly superior to the west. But even then why can't you see the social ills for what they are?

Is it because you don't find fault with these social ills?

Is it because it doesn't affect you, so it doesn't exist?

Loads of social problems don't affect me:

Drug abuse
teenage pregnancy
sexual abuse/assualt
DUI
corporate crime (so far, keep my fingers crossed)
panhandling
and an assortment of others I can't recall because it doesn't affect me. But its not like I won't admit that these social ills are in my society.

[Frown] Sigh... after I bid you good day you summon me back just to misrepresent me? Let me start by saying I never made any comparison to any Western nations, so please don't make further attempts to pass this off as a superiority issue.
I have also never said Egyptian culture was perfect, what I said was Egyptian kids biting eachother in school and wedding parties making fun disabled kids was rare. In fact I have never even heard of anything like this except from 2 foreign women with relations to Egyptians in Tanta. Forgive me if I don't take your word over my own experience when representing the entirety of my people. "All the children in Egypt were doing this." Sorry, I think this is rubbish. My own childhood in Egypt, and that of family and friends refutes this. Add to that a party of adults ridiculing a disabled child? I still have reservations about it, but maybe snapdragon did indeed see this, but to try and convince me that this is the standard in Egypt is... [Roll Eyes] not really worthy of more response. [/QB]

Again it doesn't affect you personally so it don't exist. And on top of it you are a self-declared "1%" (of wealthy Europeans).

Ever heard fat cats only life in a fishbowl before? [Big Grin]

If I had the time I'd go back through and repost comments and hyperlinks to threads in which both foreigner and Egyptians alike rant uncontrollably about how ill-behaved children are and how disabled people are treated with spite.

My personal view is in the west we see children as miniture adults. And expect them to behave accordingly. But in Islamic precepts children are to be included in all functions of family and society. While western Protestant values see putting children in their own section of the home and have a few particular adults to attend to their needs is meant to keep them in a low contagion and stress free environment. I see both systems as having value, and both systems as having drawbacks.

But even then someone who is part of the top 1% couldn't possibly understand.

By the way I have a pretty darn resilant set of socialist views.

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Graf_Genn
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You can play with your inaccurate conjecture without me, just becareful not to do it around any Egyptian children for they may just munch on you. Maybe a lighter mood would sweeten you up and make you irresistable. Enjoy! [Razz]
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al-Kahina
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quote:
Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
You can play with your inaccurate conjecture without me, just becareful not to do it around any Egyptian children for they may just munch on you. Maybe a lighter mood would sweeten you up and make you irresistable. Enjoy! [Razz]

Not worried about being munched on. Just don't want another UTI and have my daughter treating me like a bronching bull or some sort of trampoline.

I enjoy how children are allowed to behave like children in Egypt and not expected to be little adults. But I wonder when they are expected to grow up. I had more maturity at age 14 than most Egyptian women I see in their late 20s, for Egyptian men their 30s.

And I don't see Egyptians sheltering their children from things like violence on TV or even in public. My daughter watches alot of grown up TV with her grandmother and I have tried over and over again to make sure my daughter isn't exposed to this. But grandma's authority rule. Worse yet when adults get into a heated exchange and it turns into a mob fight. Even in Mamura of Alex or Heliopolis of Cairo very few people pull their children away from the scene to spare them the sight.

then the cussing. In most US states someone could be charged with a mestermeanor for swearing in front of a child, but somehow its not kept in check around children in Egypt.

Anyhow my bladder and kidneys are still recovering from little girl abuse. But it was great to see her smile and laugh, even if it was at my expense. [Big Grin]

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