quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: First I didn't say you did second you are a woman not a man and this is the main point.
Troubles 101,
It seems that you have a personal interested in my posts , I am really flattered.
But let me explain that, first I said that my observations are based on many similar posts not only this one. Second, I did not literally meant the first who answered, but rather who entered in a debate about the fact that it is a must and that is good for the women…ect.
You can see that most of the members who spent a long time debating the issue whether with or against and spent a lot of energy and research are Men , while on the other thread only 10 replied very briefly and non of them went out of his way to reach the issue.
I expected a discussion about the thoughts that I have shared , not about number of people that replied to the post. If you are not interested you should have not wasted your time doing the statistics
your emphasis on the accuracy of stats in Mooly's post is a bit too focused, shall I say? Mooly raised 7 to 8 very insightful questions, and you seem to address only one question, which means you have done at most 13-14% of the job in trying to undermine the persuasion power of Mooly the Intellectual Girl's post...This is barely convincing. Try harder please. But most importantly, MOoly did raise excellent questions. Why not to center our further debate by first addressing those issues? Sounds fair enough, Troubles101?
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 29 June 2004).]
It seems that you have a personal interested in my posts , I am really flattered.
Forgot hour Love ?!!!
quote:But let me explain that, first I said that my observations are based on many similar posts not only this one.
they don't apply here anyway,so why mention them?
quote: Second, I did not literally meant the first who answered, but rather who entered in a debate about the fact that it is a must and that is good for the women…ect.
You can see that most of the members who spent a long time debating the issue whether with or against and spent a lot of energy and research are Men
Again your statics here do not apply : 16 women and about 6 men there are 2 I don't know whether they are men or women here list of members paritcipated with the number of posted they made on thread(mistakes are expected as I did it quickly)
meteora(3) wedi(2) BahYBasha(3) Luxorlover(10) Farhana (5) nefertity's eyes(4) akshar Phagocyte(15) Troubles(4) alark(3) newcomer(12) ExptinCAI multisphinx katrina(9) supercar(8) omelbanaat(2) cassia2 sherowet23 dajjal supreme(5) El Kadafi KlickonUSA Mooly El Din CaliGirl (2) In addition to that my posts were not against or for the Hijab but rather more as comments on a Hadith.Supercar said he doesn't defend or attack it (if i rememebr well) and Dajjal is not even Muslim .and as i said before most men posts here were irrelevant to Hijab except Phagocyte and Kadafi who made only 1 post and bahy 3 .now compare them to women posts about Hijab? Phago is the one who made alot of effort, research and cut and paste.may be you should address him?
quote:, while on the other thread only 10 replied very briefly and non of them went out of his way to reach the issue.
Actually as i said,when taking statics in consideration I find both threads got equal of attention percentage.
quote:I expected a discussion about the thoughts that I have shared , not about number of people that replied to the post.
Look at your second question and tell me again what was it about?
quote: If you are not interested you should have not wasted your time doing the statistics
I only answered one question for a reason, which is, I kind of got bored from the same comment that some people say without even giving attention .the same old "men talking instead of women on hijab" and similar stuff.look at some of Phagocyte cut and paste and you will see it there.that's why I don't go for Hijab disucssions (though nothing wrong with that) and I leave it for women to debate it.see how smart am I? .BTW Sorry to reveal out precious love secret
Cheers
[/B][/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 29 June 2004).]
posted
Ahh why Am I not surprised to see you showing up in defence of our beloved Mooly?!If you were a man I would have got some indecent thoughts plus I think moooly is a stright woman
Mooly made about 5 questions I guess .and most of them if not all as I see are self answered questions .May be I should leave the rest to a woman?
quote:Originally posted by katrina: Troubles101,
your emphasis on the accuracy of stats in Mooly's post is a bit too focused, shall I say? Mooly raised 7 to 8 very insightful questions, and you seem to address only one question, which means you have done at most 13-14% of the job in trying to undermine the persuasion power of Mooly the Intellectual Girl's post...This is barely convincing. Try harder please. But most importantly, MOoly did raise excellent questions. Why not to center our further debate by first addressing those issues? Sounds fair enough, Troubles101?
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 29 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Ahh why Am I not surprised to see you showing up in defence of our beloved Mooly?!If you were a man I would have got some indecent thoughts plus I think moooly is a stright woman
sorry had not got time to go through even a fraction of the points but here are some comments
firstly regarding whether hijab is fardh or not, please guys i am not talking about anything else in this point simply whether it is clear that it is fard- ok this is actually simply but complicated all at once. in recent years we have seen an increase in such questions, and the reply is actually simple and exposes the embarrasing lack of scholarship that so-called commentators have come to. in england we have believing women who author books taking the stance that it is sunnah... ppl it all comes down to arabic and is actually really cringe worthy that ppl have taken it to these extents with no real scholarship- we are not even looking at evidence in hadith forget that for a second- we are talking about the quran, before when ppl would use surat alnur as a ref point i would think what that is talking about covering your chest and in my ignorance i thought they didnt have a clue. now in all honesty i believe that most of them still dont understand the verse- but what the scholars say to those that being this issue up is simple and as i said kind of shocking when you think about it- the quran says and 'draw your veils over ...' ppl go yeah but what is a veil etc etc and these ppl that dont believe in hadith full stop go on and on about this that and the other, the problem is everyone forgot scholarship the word veil in arabic is khimar- in the verse khumurehin now in a sentence this whole issue can be put to rest by scholars who just point out that the root word of khimar is the same as that of khamr- alcohol and the root word means to cover the brain, the Allah SWT is saying draw your head piece over your chests... man when someone first explained this to me it made me realise how bad our situation is, anyone can make a comment and ppl will believe them b4 asking what their real education is, the hijab was actually worn anyway at the time of the prophet but the women would show their chests--- interestingly we have that situation again high hijabs and low knecks.
as for whether a piece of cloth does x y and z, well a hijab is two forms inner and outer- and i have friends that only have the inner hijab and i know of other girls who only have the outer, the thing is as muslims we need to work on both, as for the cloth, hijab aint just the head it is the arms and the legs and the tightness, someone told me the other day about a hijabi booty dancing with men, other girls wear hijab and short sleeves or the tightest jeans- but then i think i shouldnt judge them at least they are trying. hijab in its totality inner and outer- and proper, well then you are implementing SWT's laws and if you do that you get closer to him and it helps you practice in other areas. see when i or any other hijabi peak on public platforms in front of non-muslim womn who think all muslim women are oppressed well it confuses them when a hijabi is a hijabi she is like an embassador of islam she has that constant reminder about trying hard and working hard and being honest with her, and we humans always need reminding. And men must also practice modesty both in dress and conduct. Now if it is implemented properly yes it is a step forward for egypt, dont forget the islamic khilafah and all its glory started to fall when we turned from SWT, history vouches for that, whe the muslims forgot about their real aim and got interested in wealth and arguments and laziness in those periods we did are worst... islam is a recipe for success and many non-muslim academics will vouch for that, if it was not for islam well put it like this those semi-bedoiuns in mecca and medina would not have become what they became. indeed the biggest reason for it being a recipe for success is simple, you are pleasing your creator who is the creator of all... he inshallah will give you the blessings. please dont throw saudi at me, i am not talking about ppl who dont want to implement hijab i am not talking about girls who are forced but culture or government to cos then there is no inner hijab and trust me the outer is shacky and anyway the men aint got a clue. what i am saying though is if ppl practice complete hijab out of their own free will, properly both men and female it is a step, not the whole path, but a step in the right direction for that nation, another step would be honesty, another real charity, another perfection etc etc
as for whether the cloth on its own gives you respect- it depends entirely but i sincerely believe that the girl that gave me a bleck eye when i first put it on did not respect me! but then i know some ppl do respect me cos of it. but in the quran the reason given is clear- you wear it so that you may be known and recognised and not treated badly by diseased men. forgive me for saying this but diseased men... not decent men who respect all women and treat all like his sisters whether covered or not muslim or not- those men do treat hijabis better-
this is such a long topic but one last point, the point given that greek etc used to cover up etc etc... modesty is a universal message and as muslims we believe in prophets who came down with such messages, the fact that jewish or christian women are supposed to cover up is actually further proof of islam being divinely linked to these other religions.
hijab hijab hijab it is really such an interesting topic esp after events in france and i have not even said a fraction of what i am thinking but at the same time there is prioritisation... when someone is interested in islam what is the first thing we tell them- is it about Allah SWT or salah or is it hijab--- this is the problem i would rather someone pray the 5 prayers than wear a hijab although both would be best. in fact i believe much of the controversy today stems from the way we have presented hijab and ppls doggy priorities--- i have took a group of converts once and was shocked to see most in hijab even nigab but their husbands had not taught them salah or wudu or something--- that my friends seems to have more to do with the men in question than in their desire to help their wives please SWT.
nighti night
wasalamu'alaykum
Posts: 5 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katrina: What is this now?
Kate it does not worth the discussion, he is simply does not get it. Troubles101, people like you.....with there unjustified insults have discouraged a lot of interesting people to continue posting here. If you do not have any added value comment, it is better not to say anything.
If you can make assumptions on people's sexual identity without knowing them, then may be we can pass judgment on your mental abilities. Please do not drag this discussion further.
posted
Wait wait wait.you are alwayes quick for a conclusion aren't you?did I assume about your sexual identity?I simply gave my impression about you and Katrina.both of you seem to follow each other everywhere such harmony that if it was man and woman I would call it "Love" but it's still love anyway isn't it? You see I got good exerince with what happen behind these kind of forums.some ppl make groups and start taking sides with each other and you will find them coming to support each other no matter what.that was the point.Needless to talk about those double faced. I like to show myself the way I'm everywhere and if i dislike someone it will show.Sorry that's just me but honestly I didn't mean that as an insult may be Ghalasah? as for ppl like me getting ppl away.You are still here though you said this many times? I'm not that successful damn!
And your statics are still wrong!
Enough
Send my greetings to Katrina!
quote:Originally posted by Mooly El Din: Kate it does not worth the discussion, he is simply does not get it. Troubles101, people like you.....with there unjustified insults have discouraged a lot of interesting people to continue posting here. If you do not have any added value comment, it is better not to say anything.
If you can make assumptions on people's sexual identity without knowing them, then may be we can pass judgment on your mental abilities. Please do not drag this discussion further.
quote:Originally posted by adhra: ... islam is a recipe for success and many non-muslim academics will vouch for that, if it was not for islam well put it like this those semi-bedoiuns in mecca and medina would not have become what they became. indeed the biggest reason for it being a recipe for success is simple, you are pleasing your creator who is the creator of all... he inshallah will give you the blessings. please dont throw saudi at me
hello adhra , ba3d el salam ..... so u donot want anyone to throw saudia at u ...would iran be enough ...or do u still need taliban or sudan el nomeery or sudan el toraby ...???? or r u still going to claim they did not apply the true islam ...but who can define true islam ?whose islam is the true islam yours or mine or ben laden's ????!!! and u believe that islam is the only solution ( may be u should join the muslim brothers , there u 'll find your alikes )then should we start look for someone from quraysh to be the khaleepha .....like the foretold hadeeth ....or are u going to deny that one ......please wake up and smell the caffee ...u r living in lala land ...lol salam
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 30 June 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 30 June 2004).]
First this question should have been posed to Muslim women. Secondly someone posted it's a matter of choice.
As a Christian we are taught to not judge people by their outer appearance. So I can't understand how for the life of me, a muslim would judge a westerner visiting Egypt as being un-modest or disrespectable. Now I ask you, is the woman walking in the bikini on the beach disrespectful or the "devout" muslim man that "lusts" for her?
Of course many of you "holier than Thou" muslim women would gossip about the woman. But you "culture" has trained you to view yourselves as how you are viewed by men. Which is how your man can justify having more than one wife, not viewing you as his equal, etc. You live in a male dominated society, and many of your voices go unheard. Yet you have the nerve to judge the progressive western women by YOUR standards. Even those that hide behind the "God tell us to cover up", Well does your God tell you to judge people. And believe me if God was here in the living flesh, you could be butt naked the way He created you, and He would not lust for you like these men of yours. As HE only judges your heart, spirit, and soul- NOT YOUR BODY!
[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 30 June 2004).]
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
And speaking of the disrepectable un-modest "westerners", this is who your country CHOSE to represent them to the world.
Miss Universe Pageant 2004 Hebal El-sisy
You must be so ashamed to have such a "degrading" half-nude woman representing your "modest" country to the world huh? And no way a "decent" man will marry a woman dressed like this right? Get Real, this woman can have any man in the world.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: Should women wear the veil?
First this question should have been posed to Muslim women. Secondly someone posted it's a matter of choice.
As a Christian we are taught to not judge people by their outer appearance. So I can't understand how for the life of me, a muslim would judge a westerner visiting Egypt as being un-modest or disrespectable. Now I ask you, is the woman walking in the bikini on the beach disrespectful or the "devout" muslim man that "lusts" for her?
Of course many of you "holier than Thou" muslim women would gossip about the woman. But you "culture" has trained you to view yourselves as how you are viewed by men. Which is how your man can justify having more than one wife, not viewing you as his equal, etc. You live in a male dominated society, and many of your voices go unheard. Yet you have the nerve to judge the progressive western women by YOUR standards. Even those that hide behind the "God tell us to cover up", Well does your God tell you to judge people. And believe me if God was here in the living flesh, you could be butt naked the way He created you, and He would not lust for you like these men of yours. As HE only judges your heart, spirit, and soul- NOT YOUR BODY!
[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 30 June 2004).]
Hi homeylu!
It was interesting to hear your Christian point of view. I think if you check back on the thread you will see that the message was an open message, and as Troubles101 pointed out it was mainly women who answered the question and most of them, about 2/3, were Muslim women, and about the same proportion of the men were Muslims too.
However the thing I found most fascinating about your message was where you said that as a Christian you said that you are taught not to judge people by outer appearances, when modesty in dress is also a characteristic of a Christian woman too, the Bible tells women to cover up just as much as the Qur’an does.
I think that we have all agreed several times on this site that both Muslim men and Muslim women should lower their gazes and not stare lustfully at any member of the opposite gender. But can you imagine what the reaction in your country would be if a woman decided, because she was on holiday and it was a warm day, that she was going to walk down the street of one of your small conservative Christian villages in a bikini, because she thought it was her God-given right to do whatever she wanted? The same thing as happens here, the men would stare, because it is not something they are used to seeing in their culture. People often think that because they are in a beach resort it is an international right for them to go around more scantily dressed than they would in the streets of their own hometowns. They forget the saying: “When in Rome…” when it comes to beach resorts.
As to the non-judgemental bit, it seems as if you forgot some of your Christian teachings when you were writing about Muslim women, I don’t think I have seen such a judgemental generalization for a long time! By the way, there are in fact many so called “progressive western women” who are actually choosing to adopt an Islamic way of life as they see it a better option.
posted
Phagocyte, how old are you? I have two lovely daughters I'd like to introduce you to
Hijab or not? If you base your decision on Quranic evidence, then you have many logical arguments both for and against. Same for using Hadith (if we follow Hadith arguments to their conclusion some hadith - although weak - argue that only a women's LEFT EYE should be revealed!).
Sunna? There are many aspects of Sunna that we chose not to follow: eg. Wives of the Prophet (pbuh)could not marry after his death, yet we do not forbid widows from remarrying.
Quran aside, I prefer to make my judgements using both heart and mind. Hadith are very much based on particular cultural, historical and social contexts that are actually (pls read sarcasm here) a little different today. Women wore the Hijab in the time of the Prophet as protection from attack (for political reasons) and to distinguish themselves as Free Women, not slaves (who were not allowed to wear Hijab, even in the time of the Prophet) what does that tell you? It was political not sexual. It was related to status, not modesty. Can anyone find me anywhere (in Hadith or in the Quran) where there is a stated or even referred to punishment for a woman who takes off her Hijab, who changes her mind and decides she doesn't want to wear it anymore? How many lashes? To my knowledge there is no negative repercussion. How come? If it is so important, shouldn't there be some kind of punitive consequence to not doing it?
I am not against modesty. It's a personal choice, and one that should be applied to both sexes equally.
I find it ridiculous when I'm on a beach where the women are veiled and/or wearing Niquab and their husbands and other male relatives are running around in their bathing suits (God, it's an effort to remain civil here) staring at anyone wearing a bathing suit. Where is their modesty? Where is there constraint? (and usually, where are their mirrors!!!)
To reply to the issue of linking hijab with the position of female versus male sexuality, most definitely there is the assumption that Muslim men have no control over their sexual urges, women do. That by dressing modestly you will somehow control men from having lustful thoughts (with the unspoken assumption that women do not have lustful thoughts themselves). While we are in control of male sexuality, we are definitely not in control of our own (culturally, I mean): as evidenced in the practice of FGM.
Just a few thoughts. Hope I haven't offended anyone by voicing them. Hijab or not, don't forget the sunscreen this summer!
posted
As to the non-judgemental bit, it seems as if you forgot some of your Christian teachings when you were writing about Muslim women, I don’t think I have seen such a judgemental generalization for a long time! By the way, there are in fact many so called “progressive western women” who are actually choosing to adopt an Islamic way of life as they see it a better option.
And you are trying to tell me the fact that these westerners have "adopted" this Islamic way of life has nothing to do with the fact that they married muslim men? Or trying to "fit-in" to the culture they moved into.
As far as judgemental, it sounds as if they're the worst. I don't hear any Americans judging them in this country for wearing the veil. I personally think the women are just insecure with regards to westerners because they know how "lustfully weak" their own men are.
And my "judgements" are realities are the not? Are there not muslim countries where women are not allowed to drive? Are there not countries where women cant work certain jobs? Are there not muslim countries wear women don't have the **** beat out of them for losing their viginity, even if they are legal consulting adults. Isn't the male literacy rate in Egypt almost twice that f women. In this "progessive" Egyptian society is it not true that employers can make "gender" preferences for jobs. Let's not pretend,how many female poltical voices do you have? Egypt surely wasn't like that before Islamic rule, when Hatshepsut and Cleopatra were "running things". Let's keep it real.
And I seriously doubt a large number of westerners are wearing bikinis outside of the beach. And from all that I've been reading it seems that Egyptian men are far from being "decent" so how you women put up with the nonsense is beyond me. I would never accept being some man's "glorified mistress" aka second wife.
[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 01 July 2004).]
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by omelbanaat: Phagocyte, how old are you? I have two lovely daughters I'd like to introduce you to
Hijab or not? If you base your decision on Quranic evidence, then you have many logical arguments both for and against. Same for using Hadith (if we follow Hadith arguments to their conclusion some hadith - although weak - argue that only a women's LEFT EYE should be revealed!).
Sunna? There are many aspects of Sunna that we chose not to follow: eg. Wives of the Prophet (pbuh)could not marry after his death, yet we do not forbid widows from remarrying.
Quran aside, I prefer to make my judgements using both heart and mind. Hadith are very much based on particular cultural, historical and social contexts that are actually (pls read sarcasm here) a little different today. Women wore the Hijab in the time of the Prophet as protection from attack (for political reasons) and to distinguish themselves as Free Women, not slaves (who were not allowed to wear Hijab, even in the time of the Prophet) what does that tell you? It was political not sexual. It was related to status, not modesty. Can anyone find me anywhere (in Hadith or in the Quran) where there is a stated or even referred to punishment for a woman who takes off her Hijab, who changes her mind and decides she doesn't want to wear it anymore? How many lashes? To my knowledge there is no negative repercussion. How come? If it is so important, shouldn't there be some kind of punitive consequence to not doing it?
I am not against modesty. It's a personal choice, and one that should be applied to both sexes equally.
I find it ridiculous when I'm on a beach where the women are veiled and/or wearing Niquab and their husbands and other male relatives are running around in their bathing suits (God, it's an effort to remain civil here) staring at anyone wearing a bathing suit. Where is their modesty? Where is there constraint? (and usually, where are their mirrors!!!)
To reply to the issue of linking hijab with the position of female versus male sexuality, most definitely there is the assumption that Muslim men have no control over their sexual urges, women do. That by dressing modestly you will somehow control men from having lustful thoughts (with the unspoken assumption that women do not have lustful thoughts themselves). While we are in control of male sexuality, we are definitely not in control of our own (culturally, I mean): as evidenced in the practice of FGM.
Just a few thoughts. Hope I haven't offended anyone by voicing them. Hijab or not, don't forget the sunscreen this summer!
If this is the way you think.. I am sure that you do not only have a lovely girls , but smart and different ones
For the sake of a better generation, I hope more mothers like you exist
posted
Thanx omelbanat .and i wish to find more women like u having attitude and opinions .If your daughters are like u then i am sure they are very nice but i pity the proplems they will be facing in our looking backwards society .
Posts: 58 | From: cairo,egypt | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by omelbanaat: Phagocyte, how old are you? I have two lovely daughters I'd like to introduce you to
Hijab or not? If you base your decision on Quranic evidence, then you have many logical arguments both for and against. Same for using Hadith (if we follow Hadith arguments to their conclusion some hadith - although weak - argue that only a women's LEFT EYE should be revealed!).
Sunna? There are many aspects of Sunna that we chose not to follow: eg. Wives of the Prophet (pbuh)could not marry after his death, yet we do not forbid widows from remarrying.
Quran aside, I prefer to make my judgements using both heart and mind. Hadith are very much based on particular cultural, historical and social contexts that are actually (pls read sarcasm here) a little different today. Women wore the Hijab in the time of the Prophet as protection from attack (for political reasons) and to distinguish themselves as Free Women, not slaves (who were not allowed to wear Hijab, even in the time of the Prophet) what does that tell you? It was political not sexual. It was related to status, not modesty. Can anyone find me anywhere (in Hadith or in the Quran) where there is a stated or even referred to punishment for a woman who takes off her Hijab, who changes her mind and decides she doesn't want to wear it anymore? How many lashes? To my knowledge there is no negative repercussion. How come? If it is so important, shouldn't there be some kind of punitive consequence to not doing it?
I am not against modesty. It's a personal choice, and one that should be applied to both sexes equally.
I find it ridiculous when I'm on a beach where the women are veiled and/or wearing Niquab and their husbands and other male relatives are running around in their bathing suits (God, it's an effort to remain civil here) staring at anyone wearing a bathing suit. Where is their modesty? Where is there constraint? (and usually, where are their mirrors!!!)
To reply to the issue of linking hijab with the position of female versus male sexuality, most definitely there is the assumption that Muslim men have no control over their sexual urges, women do. That by dressing modestly you will somehow control men from having lustful thoughts (with the unspoken assumption that women do not have lustful thoughts themselves). While we are in control of male sexuality, we are definitely not in control of our own (culturally, I mean): as evidenced in the practice of FGM.
Just a few thoughts. Hope I haven't offended anyone by voicing them. Hijab or not, don't forget the sunscreen this summer!
Ok tho neither the Quran or the SUnnah has a clear cut answer . Allah said in Suat Al-Imran AYA 7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
And i cannot stress enough the part that says "But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical"
Posts: 343 | From: Magnoon Land | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: Ok tho neither the Quran or the SUnnah has a clear cut answer . Allah said in Suat Al-Imran AYA 7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
And i cannot stress enough the part that says "But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical"
Mr. ignorant ( el magnon previously ) before using a verse please read the verse and know why the whole surah was put down .... the whole surah is called "aala omran " which shows the reason for its descent ... that the nassaraa from nagran came to the prophet asking him about jesus and christianity and the verse is talking about the books of god and how all books come from one book which is om el ketab ...please read more and donot seize a verse from its place to seem like god has put down a special verse to support a theory of your own .....thx
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 02 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by omelbanaat: Sunna? There are many aspects of Sunna that we chose not to follow: eg. Wives of the Prophet (pbuh)could not marry after his death, yet we do not forbid widows from remarrying.
Quran aside, I prefer to make my judgements using both heart and mind. Hadith are very much based on particular cultural, historical and social contexts that are actually (pls read sarcasm here) a little different today. Women wore the Hijab in the time of the Prophet as protection from attack (for political reasons) and to distinguish themselves as Free Women, not slaves (who were not allowed to wear Hijab, even in the time of the Prophet) what does that tell you? It was political not sexual. It was related to status, not modesty. Can anyone find me anywhere (in Hadith or in the Quran) where there is a stated or even referred to punishment for a woman who takes off her Hijab, who changes her mind and decides she doesn't want to wear it anymore? How many lashes? To my knowledge there is no negative repercussion. How come? If it is so important, shouldn't there be some kind of punitive consequence to not doing it?
Salaams omelbanaat!
Just wanted to make a couple of quick comments on your post.
You mentioned that the Prophet’s wives was a Sunna that we don’t follow, in fact this ruling came as a revelation in the Quran: "...And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allâh's Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death). Verily! With Allâh that shall be an enormity.” (33: 53), yet the Quran addresses other women in several places telling them that they can remarry after they have completed their waiting period. (2: 231, 2: 232, 2: 234,2: 235, 65: 1-7)
I won’t reiterate my previous arguments, however, the Quranic verse talking about Muslim women veiling says: "...That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed..." (33: 59) When Allah told us that He had completed our religion for us he made no reference to His rulings being time limited or just related to a particular political situation and if there were any exceptions to His rules, He made them clear to us.
As to there being no hudud punishment for not wearing hijab, this does not mean that it is not an obligation on Muslims. There is no hudud punishment for not adhering to the Pillars of Islam either, for not praying, fasting, paying zakah, or going to Hajj, does that make them less important as part of Islam? Are they therefore not obligatory parts of the religion?
And you are trying to tell me the fact that these westerners have "adopted" this Islamic way of life has nothing to do with the fact that they married muslim men? Or trying to "fit-in" to the culture they moved into.
As far as judgemental, it sounds as if they're the worst. I don't hear any Americans judging them in this country for wearing the veil. I personally think the women are just insecure with regards to westerners because they know how "lustfully weak" their own men are.
And my "judgements" are realities are the not? Are there not muslim countries where women are not allowed to drive? Are there not countries where women cant work certain jobs? Are there not muslim countries wear women don't have the **** beat out of them for losing their viginity, even if they are legal consulting adults. Isn't the male literacy rate in Egypt almost twice that f women. In this "progessive" Egyptian society is it not true that employers can make "gender" preferences for jobs. Let's not pretend,how many female poltical voices do you have? Egypt surely wasn't like that before Islamic rule, when Hatshepsut and Cleopatra were "running things". Let's keep it real.
And I seriously doubt a large number of westerners are wearing bikinis outside of the beach. And from all that I've been reading it seems that Egyptian men are far from being "decent" so how you women put up with the nonsense is beyond me. I would never accept being some man's "glorified mistress" aka second wife.
[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 01 July 2004).]
Hi homeylu!
My comment was about women making a choice to follow Islam, and there are many who do, not only in the situations you mentioned, and many of them have done it to be treated respectfully as women. However, if some of them do it following a marriage to a Muslim man or to fit into the culture they moved into, they initially made the choice to put themselves in that position and then they chose to adopt Islam afterwards. No one would have forced them to make any of those choices.
It might be an interesting experiment for you one day to wear hijab and to listen carefully what Americans/Westerners do say about you when you wear the hijab – its not always polite! As to being “lustfully weak” I don’t think that description can be applied solely to Muslim men!
I don’t recollect anyone defending Egypt as a perfect “progressive country” in this discussion, but then I don’t know of any country that is! Even the “progressive” West has some aspects that it is not proud of like their high rates of suicide/drug abuse/illegitimate children/HIV positive cases/alcohol abuse/wife battering/divorce/adultery/murder/deaths and diseases due to alcohol consumption/disparity in the incomes and academic achievements of the different racial groups and between the genders/the “glass ceiling“ for women in employment, and also how many recent women Heads of State can you name in the West, other than Margaret Thatcher? Just to add a touch of balanced reality to the discussion!
Maybe you wouldn’t accept to be a co-wife as you feel you would be a "glorified mistress" and there are actually only a few Muslim women who are involved in these types of marriages, but there are many western women who do accept to be “un-glorified mistresses” to men in the West, with no legal rights or protection and also get involved in plural-Orfi marriages when they come on holiday to Egypt.
My comment about the bikini was given to illustrate the reaction a woman wearing a bikini would get if she wears it in a cultural environment where the men are not used to seeing someone showing so much of their body in public. A better comparison would perhaps have been the reaction a woman would get if she walked down a small country village street, in any country, showing her cleavage, midriff, and wearing the smallest miniskirt she could find! Certain things are appropriate in certain cultures and environments and certain things are not culturally sensitive.
posted
Newcomer, you made some very interesting points, however it seems that you "missed mine". America is the home of "sins" and don't pretend to be otherwise, that's the point. As covering up your body, will not cover up your sins. Neither does exposing your body,(at least your hair) suggest that you are not holy. However women are more "liberal" and independant, and that can't be denied. But that wasn't always the case, many women have fought for that and "glass ceilings" are being broken every day as far as race and gender are concerned. By "progessive" I mean that these liberations allow us to continuously fight for justice, rather than take the conservative stance that this is "just how it is". Otherwise African Americans would still be in slavery and believing the Hamitic myth. It's just unfortunate that religions are being used to oppress people and keep them from "progressing". But then again if you can accept being abused and discriminated against in the name of "Allah" then more power to you.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: When Allah told us that He had completed our religion for us he made no reference to His rulings being time limited or just related to a particular political situation and if there were any exceptions to His rules, He made them clear to us
Hello newcomer .... as for the quoted part from your previous posting please refer to three accidents in the ruling time of omar ebn el khattab where he did not apply the clear cut verse of theft punishment and of distributing el zakat on the new moslems and the distribution of the conquered lands on el mojahedeen ..... I am here just commenting on this opinion that u were stating to show u that in fact omar ebn el khattab was doing what modern thinkers ask for ...no verse should be a hinder in front the benefits of the muslims . however , i still did not find any verse saying " cover your hair " and hence any other verse can stand any other explanations ....
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 02 July 2004).]
newcomer- good! you stated that which really needed to be stated alhamdulilah
a few points
phagocyte-
- dont throw any of saudi, iran and taliban at me- when did the prophet SAW talk about separation of church and state which the first two countries effectively practice as for the taliban since when has the governance system which is spoken about in quran and sunnah been run by other than scholars... you implement real islam the kind that resulted in Umar as khalifa sleeping under public trees with no guards, the kind that resulted in the second umar implementing the welfare state which some not even all the west now claims and to some extent does implement... the kind of islam that people chose- when is shura or consultation of the people implemented in the countries you talk of... islam as a complete system has to be chosen by the people it can not be enforced but see here is the problem and in some way an answer to you--- when real islam is presented suprise suprise the people with all odds (and we know what they are in our despotic countries)stacked aginst them they still turn to islam in their droves and that is something you have to answer- if free elections are allowed to fallen strange things would occur- further to this may be i should point out that when fair elections are allowed to happen guess what those that want islam in its totality come in and then what... the military and their western cronies throw them out- ppl choose islam but they are not allowed their choice- look at turkey algeria tunis please. phagocyte the reality is ppl should be given a real choice- if they want islam why should they not be allowed to have it and if they dont why must it be enforced on them- and the reality is that if they are given the choice they do chose islam even if not automatically but they do eventually. The reality is that ppl like you who are intelligent have to do some contemplation- you have to decide whether you want complete islam or not as a muslim the more you know from different sources the more you want it however if you dont that is fine as long as you are willing to face upto two things- 1 is that it will come inshallah if not in the next 10 may be in the next 30 may be longer may be shorter--- 2- are you really happy with that- are you totally content with your position
homeylu- i really dont know why you are so angry-- if ppl had been dissing western women and calling them sluts i would understand and i would join you in your anger cos they would be dissing my friends unjustly! but ppl are sayingeither hijab is compulsory or not and discussing pros and cons with most saying it is the persons choice in the end---
as for you dont judge comment- that aint just a christian teaching it is a muslim one to... how can you judge a person just from the outside else you might be covered but steal and beat your kids up u simply cant judge a person in that way cos then what would be the point of the day of judgement
however as with christianity one of the things put forward is modesty so the general idea is that the more you practice your religion the better it is--- christianity as judaism also have the belief in covering the hair in fact and it aint just an old testament thing Paul clearly talks about this
progressive western women- post-modernism = progressive = outdated- the term is a fallacy in many respects.
'You live in a male dominated society, and many of your voices go unheard. Yet you have the nerve to judge the progressive western women by YOUR standards'
as for this comment of yours well let me say this, yes i live in a male dominated society and yes often female voices go unheard we have huge sexual discrimination cases- but guess what i dont live in the middle east and never have i live in the west--- i lead women of many religions and none, work with feminists and all sorts share platforms and campaign with all my sisters- in the west not in egypt. the reality that we have to face up to is this women are treated badly in most societies and yes in many ways we are better off in the west and in many ways those abroad are better off and if you studied this subject you would be shocked at what is hapening and the discussions that are rising to the surface in the postfeminist era... the progressive western women and the progressive eastern women (although the term is outdated and is backwards)dont have a right to judge anyone and as i said i dont know why you are saying this in the first place... no one is better than the other- hum i should really invite you to some of our debates where we put all kinds of women on a table an get them to discuss real issues it is a real wake up call to those on both sides that are all aloof and arrogant that we as women need to work together to end some of the hidious crimes committeed everywhere in the name of everything from culture, islam, democracy, communism etc etc--- the reality is that ppl have a way of viweing and treating women and then try and find a justification
as for converts- erm do you have any idea how many non-muslim women convert to islam while living in the west and while having zero to do with non-muslim men--- i should introduce you to a few of my friends. further to this that the irony is some of those that do convert and are married to muslim men become more practicing than their husbands- a friend of mine converted to islam after being married to an egyptian but not because of what he old her- in the end she left him cos she thought he was no longer compatible because she had converted fully but he was too non-practicing for her!
as for those in the west judging ppl according to their clothing- of course they do - firstly everyone judges everyone- welcome to the worl- you are judged for not wearing the right colours wearing baby pink in a punk club being a goth secondly if you put on a scarf of course you are judged and discriminated against- i told you i was awarded with a back eye when i first put on the scarf--- i would say that that girl was being quite hostile!
as for your comments about islam being backwards i point to my earlier comments about there being huge problems where ever you go and as for the things that you put forward they do happen, they are disgusting and have nothing to do with islam --- genital mutilation, not being able to drive etc etc islam when adopted properly gave women more rights than they could have dreamt of--- do me a favour find out about property rights for women- in islam women have always owned themselves and owned whatever they earn... find out when that right was awarded to them in a european country... you know the problem is that ppl judge islam by muslims but todays muslims and actually the muslims of the past few hundred years have always actually taken away the rights that islam awards women--- so in the years when islam was implemented prperly you had a female in-charge of the markets (what would you call that today minister of trade?), you had huge female professors and scholars now aah now in the name of islam women are not allowed to enter mosques! women are not alloed to vote in some countries, but when i think about this i realise that neither sex is really allowed to vote in the middle east or at least if they do it is pointless!
omelbanaat- alhamdulilah there is not a hadd for everything in islam! since when have the students of islam said that you need to find a reference in the quran for hadd for something before it becomes compulsory! the actions of salah itself and it is the most important thing after the shahada is not mentioned in the quran, as i explained in an earlier post that no student of classical arabic would dare suggest that hijab was not compulsory after reading the verse i mentioned--- it would show that they did not know their subject- it is actually considered to be quite embarrasing to state such cos it shows a lack of knowledge of root words which is what the language is built on at the end of the day--- so the argument about whether it is compulsory or not in islam simply does not stand- however it is still a matter of choice even in a true ismaic state no girl could be forced to wear it by anyone.
as for the discussion about why- you talk about sexual vs political- well in the quran it clearly states the reason - likay turafna wa la tu'than... and reason dont change- and compulsory and non-compulsory dont either becuase of a verse stated by someone else- in fact hijab actually was ordered after the women asked for something after a few incidents in medina... on a lighter note and please ppl i am only kidding the reason those men wear their swimming kits is simple- no one would look at them in a billion years!- no but seriously it does not make sense that these men wear small trunks and their women side by the side- this is why we need to think of alternatives- anyway i think a decent guy would be more understanding in two ways- one why should he be allowed to wear skimpy shorts and 2 he should be more sensitive and takes his wife and family to a secluded area where they can be more at ease
oki dok- everyone take care look after yr selves and early sweat dreams!
[This message has been edited by adhra (edited 02 July 2004).]
Posts: 5 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks Mooly El Din, Luxorlover, and Phagocyte, the girls are great, and they are perhaps one of the reasons why this whole debate is important to me. I want them raised in a climate where they feel they can have an opinion, an identity and choice. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to have a strong faith in God and in Islam. I just don't want them prey to the prevalent attitude that questioning something is equal to heresy, and - with all due respect to the exceptional well educated veiled women who have submitted on this site - ignorance is either bliss or proof of piety.
Newcomer, I am always impressed with your replies, and find myself following all your links. I appreciate and respect your knowledge. You wrote: "I won’t reiterate my previous arguments, however, the Quranic verse talking about Muslim women veiling says: "...That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed..." (33: 59)."
I think someone already made much of the fact that different translations of the Quran use different vocabulary, and even the arabic itself has changed over time, adding to the ambiguity. I would not presume to edit the Quran, but the word "annoyed" does puzzle me. Nevertheless, why & how were they being annoyed? Why did veiling discourage it? From what (little) I have read the argument seems to be that if they had not been veiled they could have been mistaken for slaves; and that veiling would provide a further protection against those who would think twice before trespassing against a Muslim. Sorry if this earns me black marks up there, but why doesn't it say cover themselves to show devotion to God, to preserve their modesty, because they have to?
Elsewhere in the Quran it does explicitly state that both women and men should dress modestly, not show their adornments, etc.; but it is for both, and it does not explicitly direct women to cover their hair.
You also wrote:"When Allah told us that He had completed our religion for us he made no reference to His rulings being time limited or just related to a particular political situation and if there were any exceptions to His rules, He made them clear to us". I agree, but we were also instructed that in matters of ambiguity we should refer to the life of the Prophet(PBH) and his teachings for reference. Are you also going to argue that the Hadith do not have a particular social, historical and cultural context?
Finally, it is very interesting that there are no Hudud for not following the 5 pillars of Islam, other than God's judgement of course. Perhaps that's a good sign that we should really leave it all up to him. Those who are veiled may earn more brownie points, those who wear Niqab will presumably then get even more, but I don't think that those who don't are going to have any deducted. What do you think?
Hi Adhra (as in knowing more or as in more able?) I agree with most of the points that you have raised regarding Islam, with reservations regarding your reply to my post. Sorry, I'm still not convinced. I whole-heartedly agree with both points you raised about the double standarding bathing-suited husbands of veiled women 1. Honestly, who would be tempted to look at them? and 2. Forget about showing any sensitivity to the women you are ogling, at least have some sensitivity towards your female family members, and go somewhere else if you just can't control yourselves!!!
Hi Elmagnoon, to reply to your point, I agree that if there are "hidden meanings" in the Quran, no mere mortal is going to figure them out for me. I'm certainly not looking for discord, I'm actually looking for clarity. Where there is ambiguity it is the duty of every muslim to educate themselves to the best of their ability, and then make their own decisions
[This message has been edited by omelbanaat (edited 02 July 2004).]
[This message has been edited by omelbanaat (edited 02 July 2004).]
posted
Originally posted by Adhra as for those in the west judging ppl according to their clothing- of course they do - firstly everyone judges everyone- welcome to the worl- you are judged for not wearing the right colours wearing baby pink in a punk club being a goth secondly if you put on a scarf of course you are judged and discriminated against- i told you i was awarded with a back eye when i first put on the scarf--- i would say that that girl was being quite hostile!
Your "black eye" incident sounds like an isolated incident and not the norm. By contrast, I believe American women are judged more visiting an Islamic country if they are wearing a short skirt, than an islamic person visiting here wearing a veil-in light of recent events. However the points you made are fruitless, as we are talking about judging based on morals, not "what's in style", "Should I wear white after Labor Day" etc. of course people judge all the time, to suggests otherwise would be foolish.
Unless the laws have changed, my understanding of Egypt has always been that a man can do everything under the book, and get away with it, but a woman can't divorce him unless she can "prove" he's causing serious harm, and he on the otherhand can exclaim "I divorce you" 3 times and be done with her, all in the name of "Allah" mind you. Your time could be spent better "empowering" your women, than trying to convince a westerner of the proper dress code when visit Egypt. Enough said.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: Newcomer, you made some very interesting points, however it seems that you "missed mine". America is the home of "sins" and don't pretend to be otherwise, that's the point. As covering up your body, will not cover up your sins. Neither does exposing your body,(at least your hair) suggest that you are not holy. However women are more "liberal" and independant, and that can't be denied. But that wasn't always the case, many women have fought for that and "glass ceilings" are being broken every day as far as race and gender are concerned. By "progessive" I mean that these liberations allow us to continuously fight for justice, rather than take the conservative stance that this is "just how it is". Otherwise African Americans would still be in slavery and believing the Hamitic myth. It's just unfortunate that religions are being used to oppress people and keep them from "progressing". But then again if you can accept being abused and discriminated against in the name of "Allah" then more power to you.
Hi homeylu
I think if you check back through my posts you will find that I have never said that wearing hijab (which is actually more than just covering the hair) makes a woman holy and not wearing one makes her unholy. I have always just contested that it is one of the requirements of Islam along with good morals, and striving to do ones best to contribute to the society, etc. etc.
I do not deny that American/western non-Muslim women are more liberal and independent, but I would not necessarily agree that these are desirable qualities from what they mean to me, although before I comment further on them I would be interested to hear your definitions.
However according to your definition of progressive, I would say that Muslim women are every bit as progressive as western women in that those who are educated in both worldly and religious matters (something greatly supported by the religion, if not by those who have been in power in Muslim countries for a long time) are trying to fight to improve their conditions. You were commenting on the fact that the position of women in ancient Egyptian times was better than you see the current position of Egyptian women. I would also argue that in the times when people adhered to Islam the position of women was much better too, as adhra mentioned; there were many women scholars, social activists, and even fighters in battle. I only refer to these as you had mentioned a historical aspect in your message, to show that it is not Islam that subjugated women. I would argue that it was corrupt societies, and within them people have abused the religion either to gain/maintain positions of power or through ignorance, that has caused many of the problems being faced in Muslim countries nowadays and some of the things you criticized about Muslim societies. For example the last item you just quoted about women not being able to get divorce easily, if we refer back to the Hadith we will see that women who were in marriages to men they could not tolerate could get a divorce easily, but many Muslim countries have made it difficult for them by the laws that they have adopted as the laws of the land and the attitudes to women seeking divorce. Muslim women are now fighting to regain the positions and respect that they once had and great strides have been made, although maybe not as quickly as we would like. You will see many more Muslim women being educated now, taking part in society, often in powerful positions, they are learning what their rights are and are fighting for them.
Yes, there are some things that we do accept as believers that this is what Allah has asked us to do as our Creator who has the best understanding of His creation. But accepting injustice is not one of them, we should be fighting it. But the Islamic understanding of discrimination is different from the current western one. Islam says that all people are equal in value as human beings with the best ones being those who follow the religion most sincerely, but some excel in some areas and others are ascribed certain roles, and it acknowledges that human beings are not equal in skills, competencies, physical attributes and abilities, intelligence, etc. etc. So no, I won’t tolerate being abused in the name of Allah, but I will accept that I am not a man (and I thank Allah for that as there is no way I would want to be one!) and therefore there are some differences in my rights, responsibilities, abilities, and roles in life.
Sorry everybody else, when I came to post this I noticed all your responses but don’t have time to answer them all now. Insha Allah I will try to find time to respond tomorrow.
quote: I think if you check back through my posts you will find that I have never said that wearing hijab (which is actually more than just covering the hair) makes a woman holy and not wearing one makes her unholy. I have always just contested that it is one of the requirements of Islam along with good morals, and striving to do ones best to contribute to the society, etc. etc.
Then I honestly don't know why we're even debating, as we're obviously on the same page. I was actually replying to those that make judgements towards Westerners based on their dress code while visiting.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
supercar
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Yes, there are some things that we do accept as believers that this is what Allah has asked us to do as our Creator who has the best understanding of His creation. But accepting injustice is not one of them, we should be fighting it.
Let us not forget that the laws in the Quran, Christian or Jewish bibles, were set at time when those societies were mostly patriarchal. So obviously there are going to be some biases towards women. Arguably, those religious laws were not necessarily created with view to changing society, particularly modern society.
posted
Originally posted by Newcomer Yes, there are some things that we do accept as believers that this is what Allah has asked us to do as our Creator who has the best understanding of His creation. But accepting injustice is not one of them, we should be fighting it. But the Islamic understanding of discrimination is different from the current western one. Islam says that all people are equal in value as human beings with the best ones being those who follow the religion most sincerely, but some excel in some areas and others are ascribed certain roles, and it acknowledges that human beings are not equal in skills, competencies, physical attributes and abilities, intelligence, etc. etc. So no, I won’t tolerate being abused in the name of Allah, but I will accept that I am not a man (and I thank Allah for that as there is no way I would want to be one!) and therefore there are some differences in my rights, responsibilities, abilities, and roles in life.
The difference is American societies try to keep religion separate from state. Which allows people to assimilate into a country from the hundreds of different religious backgrounds. Which by my standards is the true way to "treat all men equally". One is not forced to adapt to the religious standards of another. Which is why they are less likely to be judgemental of person from a different faith, and everyone believes their faith in the only truth. Which I'm not sure I agree with this. But I am much more tolerant of people from other religious backgrounds because of this state law.
I also accept that I am not a man, but I do accept that there are times that I will "definitely" have to fill his shoes-hence being "independant" I don't think my God would want me to sink into poverty and despair, resulting from a husband abandoning you and the kids and a society that doesnt promote equality. Men and women both have to "share roles" And women in this country are constantly proving they can do just about anything a man can. But I'm dying for the day to see them "Talking on the phone, doing laundry, cooking, and assisting kids with their homework after having worked 8 hours, simultaneously as if its as easy as slicing bread.
So if you're into empowering women, then I commend you for that, as women are going to have to take matters into their own hands. You saw what Hatshepsut did when her husband died.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
There is a small joke (told by religious people too) about the works of God:-
A woman was walking along the road and passed two gardens one was immaculate and beautiful the other was full of weeds. A man was busy working in the beautiful garden. "Look what God has has given you", said the woman. The man pointed to the wilderness next door and said "And look what happened when God was left to his own devices".
If this world survives (and it is doubtful that it will) people will still be deabting exactly what God meant in the words passed to Mohammed in another thousand years time. Sometimes both God and man need a bit of help.
quote:Originally posted by Phagocyte: Hello newcomer .... as for the quoted part from your previous posting please refer to three accidents in the ruling time of omar ebn el khattab where he did not apply the clear cut verse of theft punishment and of distributing el zakat on the new moslems and the distribution of the conquered lands on el mojahedeen ..... I am here just commenting on this opinion that u were stating to show u that in fact omar ebn el khattab was doing what modern thinkers ask for ...no verse should be a hinder in front the benefits of the muslims . however , i still did not find any verse saying " cover your hair " and hence any other verse can stand any other explanations ....
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 02 July 2004).]
Assalamu alaykum Phagocyte
I agree that the way I phrased that sentence may not have been as clear as it should have been, however, there is a slight difference between one of the Khulafa’ al-Rahideen making an exception to certain rulings for the purposes of maslahah, which were not objected to by the community of the Companions, to a some modern scholars wanting women to abandon the ruling of hijab (which the majority understands to be obligatory on women) with no benefit to the community other than to stop a few people thinking that they look backward and repressed. This is an idea that doesn’t come from Islam where the hijab is to identify a woman as a believer and is part of dressing modestly and is worn with pride by many who do wear it, but was introduced to Christianity by Paul I believe.
First Epistle to the Corinthians (11:3-10) “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.”
Couldn’t agree with you more that women need to question and understand their religion and not act without knowledge. It’s required of Muslims by the religion to seek knowledge and have understanding. Likewise they should also question the arguments that are given by those who oppose the rulings given by Islam and look at the rationale they are using for their arguments and the reasons that may be behind their opposition.
As to your comment about the Qur’anic verse, although I cannot personally verify the fact that no verses or words in the Arabic Qur’an have been changed there have been enough scholarly attestations to this that I believe that the Arabic Quran we use today is exactly the same as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammed. But course no two translations from any language will be exactly the same as the translators/interpreters try to express the meaning as close as they can according to their understanding of what is written, so there will be variations in this. Why Allah used the word “annoyed” I cannot answer for Him:-), perhaps we need to check out in some of the tafseers to find out how some of the scholars explained this.
In have already made my comments on men and women dressing modestly and the specific commands given in the Qur’an to women as to how they should cover themselves.
If the Qur’an tells us to refer to the Prophet for details/clarification/rulings and tells us that if a matter is decided by the Allah and His Prophet that we should accept it, then on this basis I would argue that it seems that the rulings given by the Prophet like those from the Qur’an would be for all time, all people, and all places and the areas that were left ambiguous by both of them are to allow for rulings to be adapted to new places, people, and times. This would be my answer to supercar also, the Qur’an came as the last revelation from Allah, so we need to refer to what He said in the Qur’an, not wait for the new, up-dated edition!
As to the brownie points (by the way, where were you come from, I haven’t heard this phrase for ages, it was nice to see it again?) I think we should all strive to earn as many as we can, hope for Allah’s Mercy in the areas that we are not strong, and that we should advise and support others to the best of our knowledge when we see them weakening/struggling in the best way that we can, hoping for the best outcome for all of us.
Although we have an agreement that a hijab doesn’t make a person holy, if you check back on our first messages you will see that my disagreement was with the way you expressed this.
Islam also has a rule that says that I won’t worship what you worship and you won’t worship what I worship, so you have your religion and I have mine. This is where I get my toleration of different religions, but it doesn’t mean that I have to agree with them or forsake what I believe in to suit them.
If that was your definition of independence I think that you will find as many Muslim women adopt the same position as western women. Although they are more likely than western women to have the support of an extended family, many Muslim women are raising their families alone for a large amount of the time due to husbands having to travel to find work, maybe out of the country as happens very often here in Egypt. Although the system here in Egypt may be a male dominated one, if you look at Egyptian women, particularly the more educated ones, you will find them to be very strong women.
The women at the time of the Prophet would stand up in public and complain if they felt that they were being treated unfairly, and the Prophet listened to them and often acceded to their demands. So we have good role models for making a stand! As Luxorlover implied, we shouldn’t sit back and expect Allah to do it for us we have to act to change things for ourselves, then He will help us.
posted
hello newcomer , it seems that whatever events i come with , u always come out with some weird not convincing argument .... I have been in your place once where i used verses from the quran everywhere till i changed .....islam is great by the way it encourages thinking ....Thinking is our way out ...not by looking in some stuff written by uninformed guys 10 centuries ago .....If omar thought out something why cant we ...by the way he was the first but he is not the last one .....but our sheoukh are are studying by heart but they r not taught the way of thinking ..... It is changing though we want it or not ....look at the slavery and the divorce and el khol3 .it is not acceptable in our days to cut the hand of a thief ...then what if he robbed two billions $ should we cut his hand the same as a pick pocket who robbed 25 piasters ??/!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Phagocyte (edited 03 July 2004).]
I really don’t know why you bother responding to me at all if my arguments are that weird and unconvincing!
I used to be in your position too where I questioned everything about Islam and the Quran... True, Islam encourages believing Muslims to think and act, but within the rules and according to the principles already laid down, if they still want to claim to be Muslims.
Not quite sure about your reference to “uninformed guys 10 centuries ago though...many of the early scholars were much more well informed than the current ones and I agree there are many people who currently are regarded as sheikhs and scholars whose ability for in-depth evaluation of current day events in a true Islamic perspective leaves much to be desired, which is why I mentioned earlier in another thread that we need to be discerning believers, and choose who we take our advice from.
By the way I think Abu Bakr beat Umar to the claim to be the first to take an action that hadn’t been specifically described when he went out to fight those who were refusing to pay zakah. He did this by convincing Umar and the other Companions that what he was doing was in accordance with the principles laid down in Islam, which is what should be done now to make new rulings on anything!
[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 03 July 2004).]
posted
thx for the abu bakr point ..... u helped me to back up my case here .....lol Posts: 58 | From: cairo,egypt | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Newcomer you are a pleasant person, I can see that from your posts. You're not the least bit hostile, as I have witnessed from other people.
So I won't debate you on your religious beliefs, as that is not for me to do, maybe that is definitely something between other muslims who interpret the Quran differently. So both of us will remain un-convinced of the other in terms of religion.
But that aside. I need to ask you, and any others that may have knowledge on the matter, as I may only have a one-sided biased perspective from a few sources. So can you tell me if it is true, that in Egypt, under Islamic rulership, that non-muslims are treated like trash? I have been told by others that Christians (particularly Coptics) are treated like trash. That they are forced to live around filthy hogs, with trash piled up all around their neighborhoods. The kids play in and eat from trash. Their neighborhoods smell like filth, and that no "decent" muslim is allowed to associate with them. I'm told that they are forced to pick up the city trash and take it back to their own neighborhoods and live with it. Now if this is true, I would have to say that even the Christians in America that hate muslims would never force them to live in such unsanitary dehumanising conditions. So please feel free to correct my view, as I am open to all perspectives. The only thing I know for sure, is that muslims think pigs are filthy, so why would you force Christians to live with them unless you thought they were filthy too? Anyone?????????
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Phagocyte
I really don’t know why you bother responding to me at all if my arguments are that weird and unconvincing!
[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 03 July 2004).]
i keep answering your posting because your postings provoke me , because they r the result of the systematic brain wash we and our children are subjected to everyday in the arabic media and in our schools .( we r always the victims of others .... the evil west is always conspiring against us !!!! we r defeated in ALMOST all the wars that we faught because some super power has been against us !!!!!!!- if u have the time i can send u some analytical articles about the inferior performance of the arabic armies in its wars as a cause of its defeat - this is all coming from lack of individual political and religious freedom in the arabic world .... which reflects itself in the lack of creativity and productivity and excellence ....if the islam u r talking about would grant these stuff ...so welcome with it ...but i know that it will be the islam of iran and saudia arabia where all and any opposer will be called a kafer and soon he will be beheaded like el sharea !!!!!!!!!! another reason why i keep replying to u is that u have not been a bit indecent in your replies ..!!!!!! though i might have been a little bit synical sometimes ...pardon but this is my way of expression ...nothing personal . Posts: 58 | From: cairo,egypt | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Thanks for your kind words and also to the others who have joined in this discussion, its been an interesting experience for me as I only usually have the chance to make quick comments on the forum... its been good for me to have my ideas challenged and to look up information when I didn’t have it at my finger tips. I’m glad that my comments provoked you to think and respond too, insha Allah we will all come away from the discussion richer in knowledge, even if it has only helped to confirm our own points of view even more!
Homeylu: as regards the information about the people who collect the trash it might be better to start up a new thread about that as this thread has probably only got a limited readership and you might attract the interest of more people who have greater knowledge about this situation in Egypt, certainly than I do. From what I have been told most of the people who come round to collect the trash do live in a specific area of Cairo, and I am told they do a great re-cycling business that has made many of them very wealthy. But as to them all being Christians and forced to do this work, I have never heard this, but as you indicated there is a lot of biased reporting and all information that is dubious should be verified.
As to your comments Phagocyte, considering that I have not been educated in the Arab world nor am I influenced much by the Arab media (remember, my Arabic is still not yet fluent enough to tackle your articles in the time needed to keep a discussion lively!), my thoughts cannot be the result of the systematic brainwash you mentioned. I too get frustrated when I hear people in the Muslim world blame all their problems on the outside world as if they had not contributed to any of the problems they are facing. Anwar Ibrahim, the former Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia (who was falsely accused of trumped up charges to get him out of the way when he was seen not to be towing the expected party line) put it very nicely. He said something to the effect that the Muslim countries had only been colonialized because they were “colonializable”, i.e. their conditions and mentalities had made it possible for the colonialists come in into the countries the first place.
I agree with you that the shortage of creativity and productivity and excellence in many areas this part of the world is sad, but is that due to Islam or to something else? If you look at the principles and teachings of Islam this is the opposite of what it is teaching. So perhaps it is more due to the political/social climates that don’t encourage people to think as this might challenge those in power, and to an education system that relies heavily on memorization rather than analysis. I do believe that in a more ideal world than we are living in now that a truly Islamic government could create the best state to live in, but like you I feel that more Muslims have to develop their analytical skills and understanding of the application of the religion before they would be able to do it successfully, according to the (revealed) book.
But to link all this to the theme of this thread, I still think that women can successfully and effectively participate in this process wearing hijab, as it is not their minds that are closed and covered by the hijab, just their bodies (including their hair;-))!
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: I need to ask you, and any others that may have knowledge on the matter, as I may only have a one-sided biased perspective from a few sources. So can you tell me if it is true, that in Egypt, under Islamic rulership, that non-muslims are treated like trash? I have been told by others that Christians (particularly Coptics) are treated like trash. That they are forced to live around filthy hogs, with trash piled up all around their neighborhoods. The kids play in and eat from trash. Their neighborhoods smell like filth, and that no "decent" muslim is allowed to associate with them. I'm told that they are forced to pick up the city trash and take it back to their own neighborhoods and live with it. Now if this is true, I would have to say that even the Christians in America that hate muslims would never force them to live in such unsanitary dehumanising conditions. So please feel free to correct my view, as I am open to all perspectives. The only thing I know for sure, is that muslims think pigs are filthy, so why would you force Christians to live with them unless you thought they were filthy too? Anyone?????????
Hi homeylu. I'll answer you very briefly. I'm not an expert on the Zabbaleen area that you are mentioning, but I did visit several times. This was historically the main area for garbage collection and recycling for Cairo (not sure if it is still, since now there are a couple of foreign firms involved). While a large proportion of the residents are Christian, there is also a large Moslem community there. These people live amongst trash - this is true. It is their livelihood. They collect the garbage, with different people "owning" different collection routes. The garbage is recycled (to a truly amazing extent) with women and children doing most of the garbage sorting. These people do not eat the trash, they do not allow their children to eat the trash (come on, that was just ridiculous, tell me you were just being provocative there).
There have been numerous donor-funded projects in the area over the past 10 years (infrastructure, housing, & healthcare. It is a very popular area with foreign donors). It is also very popular with western "Journalists" who like a good picture, and an inflammatory byline.
Yes, these people live surrounded by conditions that you may find horrifying, but that is the circumstance of their livelihood. Many of the route owners are extremely wealthy, (I'm not talking about the normal laborers)and many of them still live in the area (and many of them are Christian). Many of the workers are poor (but they are not the "poorest of the poor" in development-speak). Many are Christian, and many are Moslem, and they live side by side. Poverty is a great leveller, and it does not differentiate on religious grounds.
As for the issue of being forced to live with hogs: many of the families in the area breed pigs as an added source of income, along with goats, sheep and different kinds of fowl. Muslims are prohibited from eating pork, Christians (even Egyptian ones!) are not prohibited from eating pork. So, where does the pork come from? Mainly, from these areas, where it is a very profitable sideline for the people who raise them (on organic refuse).
Hope I have answered your question with regard to this area. Have you ever been to Egypt? Do you even like Egypt? Based on your last posting, I would be very surprised if you answered yes to either of those questions.
quote:Originally posted by meteora: I've been thinking lately about the veil 'hijab'...very confusing! should women wear it? Its just another way of tying them up?
quote:Originally posted by meteora: I've been thinking lately about the veil 'hijab'...very confusing! should women wear it? Its just another way of tying them up?
/ / /
This is every thing came in Qur'aan and A7adeeth about Hejab...I personally don't think it makes any sense!!! This will probably answer the many women who have questions about it ...read and get educated don't follow blindly....
حدثنا مسدد عن يحيى بن سعيد عن حميد عن أنس قال قال عمر وافقت الله في ثلاث أو وافقني ربي في ثلاث قلت يا رسول الله لو اتخذت مقام إبراهيم مصلى وقلت يا رسول الله يدخل عليك البر والفاجر فلو أمرت أمهات المؤمنين بالحجاب فأنزل الله آية الحجاب قال وبلغني معاتبة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بعض نسائه فدخلت عليهن قلت إن انتهيتن أو ليبدلن الله رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم خيرا منكن حتى أتيت إحدى نسائه قالت يا عمر أما في رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما يعظ نساءه حتى تعظهن أنت فأنزل الله عسى ربه إن طلقكن أن يبدله أزواجا خيرا منكن مسلمات الآية وقال ابن أبي مريم أخبرنا يحيى بن أيوب حدثني حميد سمعت أنسا عن عمر
أخبرنا أحمد بن الحسين الحيري قال: أخبرنا حاجب بن أحمد قال: أخبرنا عبد الرحيم بن منيب قال: أخبرنا يزيد بن هارون قال: أخبرنا حميد عن أنس قال: قال عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه قلت: يا رسول الله يدخل عليك البر والفاجر فلو أمرت أمهات المؤمنين بالحجاب فأنزل الله تعالى آية الحجاب.
رواه البخاري عن مسدد عن يحيى بن أبي زائدة عن حميد.
حدثنا يحيى بن بكير قال حدثنا الليث قال حدثني عقيل عن ابن شهاب عن عروة عن عائشة أن أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم كن يخرجن بالليل إذا تبرزن إلى المناصع وهو صعيد أفيح فكان عمر يقول للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم احجب نساءك فلم يكن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يفعل فخرجت سودة بنت زمعة زوج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ليلة من الليالي عشاء وكانت امرأة طويلة فناداها عمر ألا قد عرفناك يا سودة حرصا على أن ينزل الحجاب فأنزل الله آية الحجاب
صحيح البخاري .. كتاب الوضوء .. باب خروج النساء إلى البراز
أخبرني أبو حكم الجرجاني فيما أجازني لفظاً قال: أخبرنا أبو الفرج القاضي قال: أخبرنا محمد بن جرى قال: أخبرنا يعقوب بن إبراهيم قال: هشيم عن ليث عن مجاهد أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كان يطعم معه بعض أصحابه فأصابت يد رجل منهم يد عائشة وكانت معهم فكره النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فنزلت آية الحجاب.
و أخرج الطبراني بسند صحيح عن عائشة قالت: كنت آكل مع النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم في قعب فمر عمر فأكل فأصابت أصبعه أصبعي فقال: أوه لو أطاع فيكن ما رأتكن عين فنزلت آية الحجاب.
راجع أسباب النزول للسيوطي
[/b]
[This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 08 July 2004).]
posted
hahahaha....good for you homeyulo....well done hahahaa
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: And speaking of the disrepectable un-modest "westerners", this is who your country CHOSE to represent them to the world.
Miss Universe Pageant 2004 Hebal El-sisy
You must be so ashamed to have such a "degrading" half-nude woman representing your "modest" country to the world huh? And no way a "decent" man will marry a woman dressed like this right? Get Real, this woman can have any man in the world.
[This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 08 July 2004).]
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
, I am really flattered.
should be revealed!). 
Printer-friendly view of this topic