In Egypt, Europeans wearing a hijab get stared out. Purely because it looks strange to see a hijab around a bright pink face.

Besides, I have always believed that there is a core of common sense in any ancient cultural tradition ... for example, Eskimos need to eat a diet of whale blubber because in that climate, to do otherwise would cause them hypothermia. The land provides for the people.
Thus, veiling has a place in a land intense sun and sand storms ... and I do so want to experience the Siroco!

Reading these posts, I am less sure.

Luxor Lover: Truly ... what would cause more attention? An unveiled blonde westerner or a veiled blonde westerner? I'm thinking that at least from a distance, one would not see the hair colour ... and when you write "pink face" do you mean sun burnt, or simply pale?
A deeply tanned veiled person would get less attention than a pale veiled person, huh?

I agree that you have every right to question the validity of Hadith, as I already mentioned in my previous post. You raised some doubts and I tried to find answers to them for you to see if they would help answer your doubts. I hope that you found them useful. We will whether the Hadith about the fly is illogical if/when science is able to prove or disprove it maybe?

My comment about keeping subjects Egypt related was actually more to do with your comment about refuting arguments with Shi’i arguments, whichæ as most Egyptians are Sunni’sæ and it seemed to me that it would be better to at least keep the discussions within the local school of thought.

Although I cannot answer all of your long article, from the summary given by omelbanaat, I would argue that the verse: "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) over their Jalayubihinna. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful."(33:59) along with: “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers…” (24: 31) clearly shows that Islam did give an instruction for all believing women to cover themselves, not just the wives of the Prophet, when they leave the house and in front of non-marriageable men (with debate being mainly centered on whether Juyubihinna/ Jalayubihinna (pl.) means their bodies, necks, and chests, or also their faces.) It didn’t tell them to take their veils off their heads to do so, but also to draw them over the rest of their body. In addition, to show that the women weren’t doing this previously and that it wasn’t just the wives of the Prophet’s who did it, this Hadith by Aisha (r.a) describes the reaction of the women of the Ansar (the women who used to live in Medina before the Meccans emigrated there): “May Allah have mercy on the Ansar women. When the verse: ‘That they should draw their veils over their chests’ was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. And when the verse that they should ‘cast their outer garments over themselves’ was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.” [Abu Dawood] (sory I don't have an evaluation for this hadith...can any help out?) I too have also read in many sources about the weakness of the Hadith about Asma bint Au Bakr that is usually quoted.

This doesn’t mean that to wear hijab is one of the pillars of Islam, as we know that there are only five, the shahadah, prayer, zakat, fasting, and hajj, but as it is a commandment given in the Quran, and the definition of a Muslim is someone who believes in Allah and follows His Commands, then this does make wearing hijab one of the acts that is compulsory on Muslim women, along with behaving modestly, piously, compassionately, honestly, contributing to society, etc. etc. In the same way as these behaviours are obligatory on Muslim men along with wearing loose modest clothing (with the exclusion of the head cover and a slight reduction on the amount of his body that it is obligatory for him to cover).

Sorry Luxorlover, there is no exception given for European women in Luxor in either the Qur’an or Hadith! ;-) European women get stared at in Egypt whether they wear hijab or not, but at least wearing it identifies them as a Muslim and shows what kind of lifestyle they have committed themselves to. It is not a proof that they are good, honest, pious people, as that obviously comes from their actions, but that does not detract from the fact that it is still one of the things that a Muslim is told to do.

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Originally posted by katrina:
actually it is not just an islamic tradition of showing modesty by covering up but also understood and practiced by Christians as well. Nuns wear cover up too in Christianity. Christian Orthodox church requires a woman to wear a scarf to cover her head during church services

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 June 2004).]

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Originally posted by supercar:
This may be true, but Muslim women, particularly in the Arab world, take it to another level. They don't just wear it during religious services...They wear it where ever they go, and almost at all times!

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so do nuns and even at much higher level

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Salaams Phagocyte

I agree that you have every right to question the validity of Hadith, as I already mentioned in my previous post. You raised some doubts and I tried to find answers to them for you to see if they would help answer your doubts. I hope that you found them useful. We will whether the Hadith about the fly is illogical if/when science is able to prove or disprove it maybe?

My comment about keeping subjects Egypt related was actually more to do with your comment about refuting arguments with Shi’i arguments, whichæ as most Egyptians are Sunni’sæ and it seemed to me that it would be better to at least keep the discussions within the local school of thought.

Although I cannot answer all of your long article, from the summary given by omelbanaat, I would argue that the verse: "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) over their Jalayubihinna. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful."(33:59) along with: “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers…” (24: 31) clearly shows that Islam did give an instruction for all believing women to cover themselves, not just the wives of the Prophet, when they leave the house and in front of non-marriageable men (with debate being mainly centered on whether Juyubihinna/ Jalayubihinna (pl.) means their bodies, necks, and chests, or also their faces.) It didn’t tell them to take their veils off their heads to do so, but also to draw them over the rest of their body. In addition, to show that the women weren’t doing this previously and that it wasn’t just the wives of the Prophet’s who did it, this Hadith by Aisha (r.a) describes the reaction of the women of the Ansar (the women who used to live in Medina before the Meccans emigrated there): “May Allah have mercy on the Ansar women. When the verse: ‘That they should draw their veils over their chests’ was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. And when the verse that they should ‘cast their outer garments over themselves’ was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.” [Abu Dawood] (sory I don't have an evaluation for this hadith...can any help out?) I too have also read in many sources about the weakness of the Hadith about Asma bint Au Bakr that is usually quoted.

This doesn’t mean that to wear hijab is one of the pillars of Islam, as we know that there are only five, the shahadah, prayer, zakat, fasting, and hajj, but as it is a commandment given in the Quran, and the definition of a Muslim is someone who believes in Allah and follows His Commands, then this does make wearing hijab one of the acts that is compulsory on Muslim women, along with behaving modestly, piously, compassionately, honestly, contributing to society, etc. etc. In the same way as these behaviours are obligatory on Muslim men along with wearing loose modest clothing (with the exclusion of the head cover and a slight reduction on the amount of his body that it is obligatory for him to cover).

Sorry Luxorlover, there is no exception given for European women in Luxor in either the Qur’an or Hadith! ;-) European women get stared at in Egypt whether they wear hijab or not, but at least wearing it identifies them as a Muslim and shows what kind of lifestyle they have committed themselves to. It is not a proof that they are good, honest, pious people, as that obviously comes from their actions, but that does not detract from the fact that it is still one of the things that a Muslim is told to do.

Cassia, fatawas are Islamic legal rulings that are given by Muslim jurists, they are not amulets! If I were you I would read through this forum about suitable clothing to be worn in Egypt by tourists, the subject has been raised many times and a lot of advice has been given already. Enjoy your trip.

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HOWEVER
The question was NOT "should a *Moslem* woman veil?" - it was "should a woman veil?".

In fact, there is no specific forum for what visitors to Egypt should wear, unless it is archived. And as I have scanned the entirety of this site, I must assume I'm being referred to various quips about inappropriate attire worn by "sex tourists"?
(An interesting term I have never before seen.)

Believe me when I say that I have googled this topic to death. Including helping a friend purchase a niquab online. But until I read this very forum, I had not known that a fully veiled woman can get every bit as much rude, ignorant, unwanted, unasked for, and unjustified attention as a western tourist in shorts. So I asked about it.
That's a totally fair question - and I hope it will be answered.

Sherowet, please excuse me if I am misreading your post - I believed that it was respectful to veil one's head while in an Islamic culture. You seem to be inferring that the only women who have the *right* to do so are Islamic women. Is this correct? Is it being inferred that only Islamic women are capable of modesty?

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Originally posted by Phagocyte:
Hi,
first u r here also forcing your interpretation of the quran on all others judging out here and there ...sorry .....that 's what i proteset to

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then i'll try to hit the main points in these articles may be u can answer them because it is clearly that all what u said is repeated and have been discussed previously before ....

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as for hijab it was a heritage from the ancient greek and roman culture .

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then it was narrated in the sunah that women in el ghazawat shared in the fights so the khemar is surely out of question and the women used to practise "wodooa " with men in the same space?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......

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also omar ebn el khattab used to go around the streets of el medina hitting any slave wearing the hijab ..so it was a way to discriminate between the free ladies and the slaves cause they used to go out of the premises of the medina for the call of the nature the monafkeen used to go out and bother them ....

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as for the hadeeth i mentioned previously that it was da3eef weak .....

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and sorry but if hijab was such an important thing ,would not there be like 200 persons who will come to el bokhary and muslim stressing how that the prophet stressed on this code of clothing for woman not just three or four guys

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and for the verse ...by god's name it was adressing the wives of the prophet ..... how do u widen the adressee in such an irrelevant way ...even the call for the wives of the prophet certain conditions causes for these verses has been told and
it very strange to impose them on all the other women ....

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then i resort here to the common logic and to questions by which i was wondering in the beginning of the discussion ....DOES WEARING A WIG SOLVE THE PROPLEM FOR U ?
DOES A WOMAN NEED A PIECE OF CLOTH TO COVER HER HAIR TO BE ..... COMPLETE .. TO BE PURE ...TO BE RESPECTABLE ?
iS IT EITHER TO WEAR A BIKINI OR BE A WALKING TENT ?
iS THE WOMAN AN INCOMPLETE CREATURE WHO NEEDS THE TESTIMONY OF HER SURROUNDINGS TO BE ABLE TO BE CALLED 3AFEFA AND SHAREEFA ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I am not saying here that i am right and u r wrong but i say that i can disagree with u and your interpretation and that it is not a straight forward verse that does not need interpretation ....that my interpretation is as good as yours.

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It is as i see a way of political islam to stress on a threatened cultural identity .
Others are feeling the old complex relating sex with guilt feeling that all our bad mishappenings are coming from our unveiled women but sorry it is all misplanning and underplanning and our chaotic way of life ( see how if one member of the family gets really sick ...how the females of the family get veiled in fear that this old sick guy is sick for them not being veiled ...but sorry this old sick guy will die even if the men themselves will get veiled )( see how many get veiled in post traumatic stress syndromes well known in psychiatry like many actresses and actors but if u work in the medicine and work among death u will know that it has nothing to do with it )( by the way i have seen how they look to the dead person and say he died and he was pale and smiling and i curse our ignorance silently ....it is all pathological causes of death and has nothing to do with the after life ....sorry )

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people out there .... woman is an equal partner to us the men in life ....no verse no hadeeth can stop this because through enlightened interpretations of the quran ...our religion can stand for the challenge of time and can be really the fastest growing religion in the world ( not by saying that women are most of the residents of hell and not by condemning women that they are not fit for judging or governing ..... not by saying that woman should inherit half of her male brother ....a recnt enlightened iranian fatwaa overruled that hokm and gave the females her fuul equal inheritance right...by the way ......) thx and sorry if i was a little bit long or imprudent in my words ......

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Originally posted by cassia:
Ladies, I apologize about the fatwa quip.
The words read funny to me. I apologize.
There is no room for jokes.
Peace be with you.

HOWEVER
The question was NOT "should a *Moslem* woman veil?" - it was "should a woman veil?".

In fact, there is no specific forum for what visitors to Egypt should wear, unless it is archived. And as I have scanned the entirety of this site, I must assume I'm being referred to various quips about inappropriate attire worn by "sex tourists"?
(An interesting term I have never before seen.)

Believe me when I say that I have googled this topic to death. Including helping a friend purchase a niquab online. But until I read this very forum, I had not known that a fully veiled woman can get every bit as much rude, ignorant, unwanted, unasked for, and unjustified attention as a western tourist in shorts. So I asked about it.
That's a totally fair question - and I hope it will be answered.

Sherowet, please excuse me if I am misreading your post - I believed that it was respectful to veil one's head while in an Islamic culture. You seem to be inferring that the only women who have the *right* to do so are Islamic women. Is this correct? Is it being inferred that only Islamic women are capable of modesty?

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Hi cassia!
According to Islam, wearing a veil is only an obligation (in my understanding and that of many millions of other Muslims) on Muslim women, whether they are in a Muslim country or not. It is not country specific. There are also other religions that also require it of women according to certain interpretations, like the Amish, but for example you will generally not see the Coptic women in Cairo wearing scarves, although someone did mention that some of them do when they go to church. People were also saying that the Coptic women in the south do wear a head covering, but it is a different style from the hijab.
A tourist does not have to wear a veil in Egypt. If she chooses to I am sure by some she will be seen as being respectful, by others possibly mistaken for a Muslim woman on many occasions, and by some others probably as a little odd. Some non-Muslim women who live here do sometimes wear hijab to blend in, but others say it makes them attract even more attention, dependent on their colouring. Wearing a headscarf and even niqab doesn’t necessarily save you from rude/unwanted attention from some people, in fact it can in some circumstances attract it! There are some people who will be rude to anyone.
I was suggesting that you did a search just of this site as it has its own search feature, top right of the page. These are a few I found, I am sure you will be able to find more with different keywords: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000954.html http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000380.html http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000298.html http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000964.html http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000964.html

This has to be my last post today...have too many other things to do! But just wanted to make a couple of comments. As requested earlier, can you please give me the references for your comments about Umar ibn Al-Khattab.

As you know if a verse in the Qur’an does not give the full details about something the Qur’an itself tells us to refer to the Sunnah. As I mentioned earlier the word used in the verses is Juyubihinna/ Jalayubihinna (pl.) which shows it is not limited to covering just the hair as this word can be interpreted to mean the body, neck, and chest, or also the face. It is around this word that the debate seems to be centred with some people interpreting it to exclude the hair as well. However, I am more convinced of the first understanding as the obligatory one, as are most of the scholars of Islam, from my other readings.

I personally don’t see that a piece of cloth holds back a woman from participating in society, in fact it gives her more liberty to do that in a comfortable way rather than having to be a slave to the latest fashions for approval and having to learn how to “dress for success” in the business world.

Just because people complain about the Sunni’s does not mean that we go outside our aqeedah to update our thinking. Abu Hanifah was one of the four great early imams of Sunni Islam, but all of them said that if you find anything in the sunnah that conflicts with my point of view, then take the sunnah as the truth, not my words. Even the early scholars updated their ideas, for example Shafi’i when he came to Egypt, we should be doing the same, but making sure we are using sound authentic sources to base the new ideas on.

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Originally posted by supercar:
This may be true, but Muslim women, particularly in the Arab world, take it to another level. They don't just wear it during religious services...They wear it where ever they go, and almost at all times!

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Why you reply to a topic not related to 'Living in Egypt'? Your the one who called those who posted such topics idiots, so why are you replying to an 'idiotic' thread now?
What a stupid ass hypocrite

quote:

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Originally posted by cassia:

Sherowet, please excuse me if I am misreading your post - I believed that it was respectful to veil one's head while in an Islamic culture. You seem to be inferring that the only women who have the *right* to do so are Islamic women. Is this correct? Is it being inferred that only Islamic women are capable of modesty?

[/B]

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like this verse:

The whole point of my messages was not to change your point of view as you seem to be fairly fixed in that for your own reasons, and you are entitled to that if you haven’t found anything that convinces you otherwise, but the point of me taking time to reply to you was to give anyone reading this thread, who hadn’t had the opportunity to read the newspaper campaign you were referring to, another side of the story than the one you were presenting. If the only thing that would convince you would be to lay it on a plate and present you with an unambiguous literal direct instruction to do “cover hair” in the Quran, then I am sorry, I can’t assist you in this by adding a new verse to make it easy for you, you will have to use your mind to search through the authentic sources to get the full picture of what the religion expects women to do in this regard.

It is of course up to women to wear what they want, but as practicing Muslim women they should be doing this on an informed basis as to the full range of opinions on the subject from learned scholars (not relying on boards like this). They should then adopt the opinion with the best and strongest evidence, and not just taking the easiest way out or one that suits whatever they fancy doing.

I find it interesting that you reject the idea that wearing hijab can be an indication that someone has made a choice to do so through thinking about the subject, researching it, and coming to the conclusion that it is a religious obligation on them; yet you insist on viewing it, along with beards, as a symbol of backwardness and refusal to join the advanced world!!! I personally am convinced that it is not one or the other, but that one can participate in very ‘advanced’ areas of life and still wear a hijab, or even niqab, or a beard, and I have plenty of evidence to support that among the people I know.

I was asking for the authentic original references for the evidences you were giving me as I had given you to support my arguments, insha Allah I will find them one day.

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Originally posted by katrina:
so do nuns and even at much higher level

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 25 June 2004).]

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Honestly, are you trying compare nuns with ordinary women in the Arab or Muslim world? Nuns are a small group of people associated with religious services, and spend most of their time in churches or other associated religious institutions. It is their profession, and as such they are required to wear those clothes. The women here (Muslim women) aren't nuns, nor do they make it their life commitment to provide religious services to others. They wear this thing throughout their daily lives. How you can make a comparison between a few religious services officials, and the common woman throughout the muslim world is interesting, to say the least! Besides what is your point by claiming that nuns wear hijabs? Just because I didn't mention them, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that they wear one. I made my earlier comment, using Muslim women in the Arab world as an example. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are the only ones who do so. By the way, do you see almost every woman in the streets of Europe or America wear hijabs all the time, and where ever they go? Well, that is the case in most Middle Eastern countries. That is why I used them as an example.

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Originally posted by katrina:
so do nuns and even at much higher level

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 25 June 2004).]

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Originally posted by Phagocyte:
[B]do u want to say that the verse is incapable of its linguistic tools??????? .....could not it just said ,....." just cover your hair " all the verses u r pointing to does not say that ....
but once the verse has stopped from explaining something then it left the liberty of the muslims to have their opinion and agree and disagree and do what is appropriate for their society .....
"cover thine hair " is all what i want to find in the quran .....
[B]

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Originally posted by dajjal supreme:
Why you reply to a topic not related to 'Living in Egypt'? Your the one who called those who posted such topics idiots, so why are you replying to an 'idiotic' thread now?
What a stupid ass hypocrite

[This message has been edited by dajjal supreme (edited 25 June 2004).]

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Listen you jackass, stupid ass and mindless IDIOT, this topic relates more to Egypt, than your illogical Al Qaeda beheading crap. Just back off, you low life!

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quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
Listen you jackass, stupid ass and mindless IDIOT, this topic relates more to Egypt, than your illogical Al Qaeda beheading crap. Just back off, you low life!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by dajjal supreme:
Go f*** yourself. Illogical Al Qaeda beheading crap? You can't even use words in the proper context, it's no wonder you have problems comprehending what you read. Yela ingel3 yal mas5hara, your not even capable of admitting you made a mistake, siginik yahil wa wa7id 3nd moshakil nafseeya.

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You need to go f*** yourself, and get some brains while you are it. You can't even determine a simple matter as to why the title " Should women wear a veil?" relates more to "living in Egypt" than the news, " A South Korean was beheaded by Al Qaeda pigs". Has it been said in the news that Egyptians were responsible for this horrible act? I have yet to hear that. Until then, I'll stick to my point. You are the one, who needs a reality check.

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
You need to go f*** yourself, and get some brains while you are it. You can't even determine a simple matter as to why the title [b]" Should women wear a veil?" relates more to "living in Egypt" than the news, " A South Korean was beheaded by Al Qaeda pigs". Has it been said in the news that Egyptians were responsible for this horrible act? I have yet to hear that. Until then, I'll stick to my point. You are the one, who needs a reality check.

[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by dajjal supreme:
Determine a simple matter??? Some brains???
Yakhi use words in their proper context, you can't get any more pathetic than you already are. Do your country a favour and jump in front of a moving vehicle.

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quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
Honestly, are you trying compare nuns with ordinary women in the Arab or Muslim world? Nuns are a small group of people associated with religious services, and spend most of their time in churches or other associated religious institutions. It is their profession, and as such they are required to wear those clothes. The women here (Muslim women) aren't nuns, nor do they make it their life commitment to provide religious services to others. They wear this thing throughout their daily lives. How you can make a comparison between a few religious services officials, and the common woman throughout the muslim world is interesting, to say the least! Besides what is your point by claiming that nuns wear hijabs? Just because I didn't mention them, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that they wear one. I made my earlier comment, using Muslim women in the Arab world as an example. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are the only ones who do so. By the way, do you see almost every woman in the streets of Europe or America wear hijabs all the time, and where ever they go? Well, that is the case in most Middle Eastern countries. That is why I used them as an example.

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Most people are half-way Christian for a few hours on Sundays, Muslims are Muslims ALL THE TIME. Even Virgin Mary covered her head, was she also as wrong as Islam? The non-Muslims who feel so insecure about Islamic values and feel the need to attack us are childish.

There is also a saying in the Quran which states Christians and Jews will never be happy with Muslims unless we think walk talk and act like them. Maybe if we became like Holland where having sex is a greeting, we would be able to please your lot! Pleasing other ignorant kaffir is for Arab governments to worry about, not the Muslims.

People hostile to Islam are also hostile to the concept of brotherhood, therefor hostile to their own likes and kin...Just look at you and "dajjal-supreme" bickering. Why don't you two just get a room and treat yourselves American military style? Faggots...

Cassia - I liked the joke about the Fatwa, there is not need to say sorry. The humour appealed to me. It was me that said I was collecting them in the first place. That was because I had one thrown at me on another line. The mantlepiece will collapse if I get any more as the burden of them is heavy (metaphorically). Salam Rushdie went into hiding for years when he had one thorwn at him.

I can rattle them while I'm hanging up by my waist length hair for eternity.

quote:

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Originally posted by El Kadafi:
Most Muslim feminists defend and wear the hijab...BUT. Just because you wear hijab you can still be a dirty skank like most white girls, and just because you don't wear one doesn't mean you're not modest. However, the Muslim woman who sincerely wears the hijab will be rewarded for her faith. if God chooses.

Most people are half-way Christian for a few hours on Sundays, Muslims are Muslims ALL THE TIME. Even Virgin Mary covered her head, was she also as wrong as Islam? The non-Muslims who feel so insecure about Islamic values and feel the need to attack us are childish.

There is also a saying in the Quran which states Christians and Jews will never be happy with Muslims unless we think walk talk and act like them. Maybe if we became like Holland where having sex is a greeting, we would be able to please your lot! Pleasing other ignorant kaffir is for Arab governments to worry about, not the Muslims.

People hostile to Islam are also hostile to the concept of brotherhood, therefor hostile to their own likes and kin...Just look at you and "dajjal-supreme" bickering. Why don't you two just get a room and treat yourselves American military style? Faggots...

You all keep judging people you have nothing to do with when you have so much fucked up incidents in your own world. You can surf the net all you want to post antagonize Muslims, go do it all day long. You're not changing anything about Islam or Muslims. You're just trying to ease your insecurity by putting it out, you pussies can't even scratch us hard.

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Since you are incapable of reading through the entire thread to make a sound judgment, I will spoon feed to do this. Perhaps that will make you finally understand what is going on here.

This is how it all started:

Originally posted by meteora:
I've been thinking lately about the veil 'hijab'...very confusing!
should women wear it?
Its just another way of tying them up?

Reply by supercar:
It really is straight forward for those who are Muslims. According Muslims, it is about decency and respectability for women. Should they wear it? Well, personally I think it should be upto the women. If a woman feels comfortable in wearing a hijab, I see no reason why she shouldn't. On other hand, if she doesn't want to wear one, that should also be fine! Whether women wear hijabs or not, should not be a basis for respecting them. Women, like anyone else, should be treated on the basis of their individual personality! But I guess it's a cultural thing...who am I to judge.

Then the next exchange:

Originally posted by supercar:
It really is straight forward for those who are Muslims. According Muslims, it is about decency and respectability for women. Should they wear it? Well, personally I think it should be upto the women. If a woman feels comfortable in wearing a hijab, I see no reason why she shouldn't. On other hand, if she doesn't want to wear one, that should also be fine! Whether women wear hijabs or not, should not be a basis for respecting them. Women, like anyone else, should be treated on the basis of their individual personality! But I guess it's a cultural thing...who am I to judge.

Reply by Katrina:
actually it is not just an islamic tradition of showing modesty by covering up but also understood and practiced by Christians as well. Nuns wear cover up too in Christianity. Christian Orthodox church requires a woman to wear a scarf to cover her head during church services

Then… I reply Katrina’s above comment:

Originally posted by katrina:
actually it is not just an islamic tradition of showing modesty by covering up but also understood and practiced by Christians as well. Nuns wear cover up too in Christianity. Christian Orthodox church requires a woman to wear a scarf to cover her head during church services
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 June 2004).]

Reply by supercar:
This may be true, but Muslim women, particularly in the Arab world, take it to another level. They don't just wear it during religious services...They wear it where ever they go, and almost at all times!

Then Katrina’s answer to my reply…

Originally posted by supercar:
This may be true, but Muslim women, particularly in the Arab world, take it to another level. They don't just wear it during religious services...They wear it where ever they go, and almost at all times!

so do nuns and even at much higher level

Then my reply to Katrina’s…

Originally posted by katrina:
so do nuns and even at much higher level
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 25 June 2004).]

Reply to Katrina by supercar:
Honestly, are you trying compare nuns with ordinary women in the Arab or Muslim world? Nuns are a small group of people associated with religious services, and spend most of their time in churches or other associated religious institutions. It is their profession, and as such they are required to wear those clothes. The women here (Muslim women) aren't nuns, nor do they make it their life commitment to provide religious services to others. They wear this thing throughout their daily lives. How you can make a comparison between a few religious services officials, and the common woman throughout the muslim world is interesting, to say the least! Besides what is your point by claiming that nuns wear hijabs? Just because I didn't mention them, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that they wear one. I made my earlier comment, using Muslim women in the Arab world as an example. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are the only ones who do so. By the way, do you see almost every woman in the streets of Europe or America wear hijabs all the time, and where ever they go? Well, that is the case in most Middle Eastern countries. That is why I used them as an example.

So, you see, if you had thoroughly gone through the entire thread to understand what was going on here, you wouldn’t have jumped to that stupid conclusion you made. So if you can’t properly use the thread to make your conclusions, then put up or shut up!

It is all down to personal choice! and the person who should really be answering that question is a Muslim..what does a non-Muslim know about why we cover our heads. They see it as oppressive and degrading. No hadith literature, Quranic Ayat or personal experience will make any difference to them.
And i'm talking from personal experience too having a lot of non-Muslim family.

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
Supercar, Sorry for no time to reply to your questions. But if I were you, I honestly would not even spend any time to reply to El Kadafi's stuff...reasons? Well, you discoverd them yourself.

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 27 June 2004).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
He'll quieten down when the pills take effect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Farhana:
Having read all of these posts and the usual filth/inappopriate language on them, i have come to one conclusion..

It is all down to personal choice! and the person who should really be answering that question is a Muslim..what does a non-Muslim know about why we cover our heads. They see it as oppressive and degrading. No hadith literature, Quranic Ayat or personal experience will make any difference to them.
And i'm talking from personal experience too having a lot of non-Muslim family.

Lakom Deenakom wa Leyya Deen

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i dont know why non muslims see hajab is oppressive and degrading when the muslim women in Egypt have the choice of wearing it or not. I guess the reason is that they had a bad histroy with the chruch of oppressing the women and degrading them in the midevil times (as a result,they have the protestant) and this oppressation included women wearing something like haijab.

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:

So, you see, if you had thoroughly gone through the entire thread to understand what was going on here, you wouldn’t have jumped to that stupid conclusion you made. So if you can’t properly use the thread to make your conclusions, then put up or shut up!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 27 June 2004).][/B]

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So my answer to your question applies only to Muslim women. Non-muslim women are should follow the example of modesty and cover themselves as well. This is a vast question which could expand into whether "Should non-Muslim Women cover in Muslim countries?" However, this was not your question.

There is also difference as whether women should "veil" their faces. Covering the face is not mandatory. However, it is highly recommended and encourage.

Again just my 2 cents. I don't want to get involved with politics because your question is religious in nature.

May Allah Subahanahu Wa Ta'ala open up all of our hearts and shower the hearts with the Noor (light) of Hedieyat (Guidance) Ameen!

I have been reading this post and other similar over a period of one year. I am not going to enter in the debate as this issue has been exhaustively discussed on this forum. However, I have one comment and one observation to add,

1) Why hijab/veil is linked to modesty, purity and preserving chastity of women?

2) Why whenever the hijab issue is discussed, the first ones who jump into the discussions , trying to strengthen that hijab is a must and better for the women, are most likely MEN? Taking into consideration that this forum hosts more women then men!!

Why Men are so interested and so clear headed and decisive when it comes to women related issues i.e. Moslem women marrying non Moslem, wearing the hijab, and being a virgin. Yet, there are not that decisive and clear minded and aggressive when it comes to men related issues i.e. to virginity of the men and manners and behaviour ?

There is another parallel thread about Virgin groom, where the question is "Is a MUST for men to be a virgin at the wedding?". Although this thread is directly linked to manhood, and men modesty and preserving chastity , yet it attracted very little attention and received ONLY 10 replies, while this one received 93!!!! Men are not interested to discuss this topic , there rather discuss the hijab one!!!!

I am throwing the below hypothesis that many anthropologists and sexologists have been discussing before, Please do not shoot at me, just think about it for a second:

To what extend women and women's sexuality is linked to the honour of male and the whole community?

Why the issue of women wearing the veil or not is become a critical indicator for whether we are a good Moslem society or not?

In a patriarchal society, is women wearing veil, represent a society obeying GOD or a form of exercising an acquired power?

What is meant by women covering themselves? following "God's teaching" or a mean to excuse men from exercising more sexual control ?

It might seems a bit philosophical, but take a minute to think about it.
If you think this is pure rubbish, please discard it without shooting at me. If you want a intellectual discussion, I am up to it.

Cheers

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooly The Intellectual Girl:
Dear all,

I have been reading this post and other similar over a period of one year. I am not going to enter in the debate as this issue has been exhaustively discussed on this forum. However, I have one comment and one observation to add,

1) Why hijab/veil is linked to modesty, purity and preserving chastity of women?

2) Why whenever the hijab issue is discussed, the first ones who jump into the discussions , trying to strengthen that hijab is a must and better for the women, are most likely MEN? Taking into consideration that this forum hosts more women then men!!

Why Men are so interested and so clear headed and decisive when it comes to women related issues i.e. Moslem women marrying non Moslem, wearing the hijab, and being a virgin. Yet, there are not that decisive and clear minded and aggressive when it comes to men related issues i.e. to virginity of the men and manners and behaviour ?

There is another parallel thread about Virgin groom, where the question is "Is a MUST for men to be a virgin at the wedding?". Although this thread is directly linked to manhood, and men modesty and preserving chastity , yet it attracted very little attention and received ONLY 10 replies, while this one received 93!!!! Men are not interested to discuss this topic , there rather discuss the hijab one!!!!

I am throwing the below hypothesis that many anthropologists and sexologists have been discussing before, Please do not shoot at me, just think about it for a second:

To what extend women and women's sexuality is linked to the honour of male and the whole community?

Why the issue of women wearing the veil or not is become a critical indicator for whether we are a good Moslem society or not?

In a patriarchal society, is women wearing veil, represent a society obeying GOD or a form of exercising an acquired power?

What is meant by women covering themselves? following "God's teaching" or a mean to excuse men from exercising more sexual control ?

It might seems a bit philosophical, but take a minute to think about it.
If you think this is pure rubbish, please discard it without shooting at me. If you want a intellectual discussion, I am up to it.

Cheers

[This message has been edited by Mooly El Din (edited 28 June 2004).]

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The first ones who answered here are(let's say 5) :

wedi
BahYBasha

Luxorlover

Farhana

nefertity's eyes

so mostly are women who are defending the idea if i remember well the content.

the percentage of men participating here is the same as the other thread about virgin groom.men made about 1/3 of 10 or 97.so that I find is normal.
men except pgagocyte made about 20 posts and most of them or half were comments not related to any arguments to defend hijab

Phagocyte and newcomer made a big amount of the thread here (27) posts and the interesting thing is phago who is aman is against hijab while the one who defended it was newcomer (woman)!

Also it seems to me that women who wear Hijab or are studying the issue did participate and speak for themselfs not waiting for men to talk for them like:

Farhana ,wedi meteora,nefertity...

So I don't see how your intellectual argument stands here?

P.S I wrote something in this thread about Hijab and while reading it again it's like I was drunk when I wrote it as I wrote something like the opposite of what I wanted to say,though I don't really drink.may be was just in mood.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 28 June 2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
The first ones who answered here are(let's say 5) :

wedi
BahYBasha

Luxorlover

Farhana

nefertity's eyes

so mostly are women who are defending the idea if i remember well the content.

the percentage of men participating here is the same as the other thread about virgin groom.men made about 1/3 of 10 or 97.so that I find is normal.
men except pgagocyte made about 20 posts and most of them or half were comments not related to any arguments to defend hijab

Phagocyte and newcomer made a big amount of the thread here (27) posts and the interesting thing is phago who is aman is against hijab while the one who defended it was newcomer (woman)!

Also it seems to me that women who wear Hijab or are studying the issue did participate and speak for themselfs not waiting for men to talk for them like:

Farhana ,wedi meteora,nefertity...

So I don't see how your intellectual argument stands here?

P.S I wrote something in this thread about Hijab and while reading it again it's like I was drunk when I wrote it as I wrote something like the opposite of what I wanted to say,though I don't really drink.may be was just in mood.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 28 June 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 28 June 2004).]

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