quote:Originally posted by Topdog: Do you even read those studies you idiot, or do you just parrot Dienekes? The link you gave as a source I went back and read it and no place in that entire full text does it say E3b is a Eurasian ´haplogroup. Lets take your Erroneous self back to school again. It that source link you gave, I read the full text paper and E3b1-M78 has a total frequency of 5% in Anatolia according to that paper. Second as we further dig deeper into the contents of the full text we see something else:
"Haplogroup E3b and Neolithic expansions While both E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 occur at similar frequency in Turkey, the variance of the former is considerably lower than the latter suggesting either temporal or effective population size differences. The prevalence of haplogroup E (xM2) chromosomes in northern Egypt may reflect the source of non-African E3b lineages (Manni et al. 2002). Haplogroup E3b1-M78 haplotypes typify European lineages [b](Semino, unpublished) and have expansion dates consistent with expansion of agriculturalists (Table 2)."
Idiot, this paper is *NOT* talking about African E3b lineages[E3b1-M78 gamma and delta, E3b2-M81] its talking about E3b1-M78 alpha cluster which typify European E3b lineages , East Africans have 0% of the alpha cluster. He cites Semino et tal's study[which was unpublished then] as proof. Nowhere in Semino et tal's study does he ever say that E3b is Eurasian. Semino et tal states:
"Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa. This is illustrated by the microsatellite network (fig. 3, shaded area), which reveals that the Ethiopian branch harboring DYS392-12 is not shared with either Near Eastern or European populations."
And:
"In conclusion, high-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal regional population differentiations, an East Africa homeland for E-M78, and recent gene-flow episodes consistent with the Neolithic in Europe."
E3b1-M78 is also given another East Africa homeland according to Sanchez et tal:
"We genotyped a total of 389 males from Somalia, Sub-Saharan Western Africa, Turkey, and Iraq by a PCR based assay with co-amplification of 25 DNA-fragments and detection of 35 Y chromosome biallelic markers with the single base primer extension technique. A total of 19 different haplogroups were identified. In Somalis, 14 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) was found in 77.2 % of the male Somali population, in 6.3 % of Iraqi males and in 1.7 % of male Turks whereas E3b1* was not found in Sub-Saharan Western African males. The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia."
There you have it from 3 different studies that E3b is East African in origin now find me one study Erroneous idiot that says its Eurasian. Lets cut the crap and find a study that supports your nonsense. You've been stating the 'E3b' is Eurasian caucasoid' lie the entire time based on misreadings and distortions, unless you can prove the original E3b came into Africa from Eurasia you have no case.
[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 27 May 2005).][/B]
quote:Erroneous squirms: non-E3b lineages that give East Africans their - non-Mediterranean - appearance
......
LoL@Erroneous Fool as he tries and fails to make himself sound less stupid by altering his past remarks.
E3b is sub-saharan [Underhill, Semino, Cruciani, et. al]
quote:Erroneous backtracks: E3b's origin is not in dispute.
Of course it isn't.
It's sub-saharan African.
You can't dispute it. lol.
Glad you are admitting the obvious for once but while you're at it -
Other facts that are not in [meaning, you can't] dispute:
* the PN2 clade and common origins of much of Black Africa per {Keita, Wells, Underhill}.
* Admixture FROM Black Africans IN Southern Europeans {Angel, McCown, Bar-Yossef, Garrod, Cooley}
quote:Erroneous bitterly admits: E3b, though ultimately of African origin
.....is present in Southern Europeans because they inherit heterogeneous lineages from Black Africans and West Asians who imported the Neolithic to Europe and mixed with the Native Europeans:
From Historian Christopher Ehret and also unrefuted:
There are at least seven or eight maybe eleven to thirteen world regions which independently invented agriculture. None in Europe, by the way.
We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people FROM northeast Africa INTO southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.
That's the point.
Glad you realise that you CAN'T DISPUTE IT.
Of course you ARE a coward and can't quite face it, either, but that's your problem.
Glad you are admitting the obvious for once but while you're at it -
Other facts that are not [ie - you can't] dispute:
* the PN2 clade and common origins of much of Black Africa per {Keita, Wells, Underhill}.
* Admixture FROM Black Africans IN Southern Europeans {Angel, McCown, Bar-Yossef, Garrod, Cooley}
[QUOTE]Erroneous bitterly admits: E3b, though ultimately of African origin
.....is present in Southern Europeans because they inherit heterogeneous lineages from Black Africans and West Asians who imported the Neolithic to Europe and mixed with the Native Europeans:
From Historian Christopher Ehret and also unrefuted:
There are at least seven or eight maybe eleven to thirteen world regions which independently invented agriculture. None in Europe, by the way.
We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people FROM northeast Africa INTO southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.
That's the point.
Glad you realise that you CAN'T DISPUTE IT.
Of course you ARE a coward and can't quite face it, either, but that's your problem.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 May 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
Well here are some pure E3a carrying people (Tutsis), don't have a drop of E3b, however I don't get it when people say that E3b is linked to "Caucasian", Eurasians have just mixed african phenotypes.... Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 27 May 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: Once again, you're missing the point. The origin of E3b is not in dispute, it's just irrelevant because it was so long ago. Haplogroup R originated in Asia and traveled west, but that doesn't change the fact that it's now a European marker associated with European phenotypes. Likewise, E3b, though ultimately of African origin, is now a Eurasian marker associated with Eurasian (i.e. Caucasoid) phenotypes.
A bunch of nonsense and we've been over this before so I'm making this short and sweet. Cameroonians have significant levels of R but show no tendency to look European in any matter. Second, E3b is East Africans have nothing to do with 'Eurasians' because Eurasians didn't spread E3b into East Africa you idiot. As evdienced by Hiernaux and your idol Coon, the fossils of early East Africans are ancestral to the modern living populations that are there now[Masai, Tutsi, Somalis], the first two have low levels of E3b while the last ones have high levels of E3b, so explain the discrepancy? As cited from Hiernaux, none of those populations should be considered as having anything to do with Caucasoids and they differ from Europeans in a number of body proportions, so no E3b *CANNOT* be connected to a particular phenotype[Caucasoids], CASE CLOSED!
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: A bunch of nonsense and we've been over this before so I'm making this short and sweet. Cameroonians have significant levels of R but show no tendency to look European in any matter. Second, E3b is East Africans have nothing to do with 'Eurasians' because Eurasians didn't spread E3b into East Africa you idiot. As evdienced by Hiernaux and your idol Coon, the fossils of early East Africans are ancestral to the modern living populations that are there now[Masai, Tutsi, Somalis], the first two have low levels of E3b while the last ones have high levels of E3b, so explain the discrepancy? As cited from Hiernaux, none of those populations should be considered as having anything to do with Caucasoids and they differ from Europeans in a number of body proportions, so no E3b *CANNOT* be connected to a particular phenotype[Caucasoids], CASE CLOSED!
It probably sounded like fiction, when I brought forth the news, because of the extraordinary stupidity behind the medi-centric mentality , but it goes back to what I mentioned earlier here, concerning E-M78: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001995.html
These incredibly deluded folks will say just about anything to wiggle their way out of reality!
posted
Erroneous E caught lying again as usual. He said haplogroups A and B are Sanid but they are *NOT*, Erroneous E please take the time to read published data instead of saying stupid things:
AFRICAN HERITAGE "Over 400 binary polymorphisms currently describe the Y-chromosome tree. Several mutually reinforcing binary mutations divide the Y-chromosome haplotype phylogeny into two distinctive components, haplogroup A and the remainder of all other haplogroups, specifically B through R. The ancestral (i.e., nonhuman primate) alleles associated with these ancient polymorphisms are localized exclusively to a minority of both extant north African and sub-Saharan populations, whereas the majority of other Africans, and all non-Africans, carry only the derived mutant alleles. This mode indicates that almost all modern Y chromosomes trace their ancestry to a common primogenitor, as expected in a stable genealogy. These Y-chromosome data contradict the possibility that early hominids contributed significantly, if at all, to the gene pool of anatomically modern humans of the region (Capelli et al. 2001; Ke et al. 2001). This is evidence that all modern extant human Y chromosomes trace their ancestry to Africa and that the descendants of the derived lineage left Africa and eventually completely replaced previous archaic human Y-chromosome lineages.
A second distinctive monophyletic haplogroup called B, defined by several binary polymorphisms, is also restricted to African populations. Both A and B lineages are diverse and suggest a deeper genealogical heritage than other haplotypes. Representatives of these lineages are distributed across Africa, but generally at low frequencies. Populations represented in A and B clades include some Khoisan and Bantu speakers from South Africa, pygmies from central Africa, and lineages in Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al.2002). One group B-associated lineage is shared by click speaking San of South Africa and Hadzabe of Tanzania. The genetic distance between these lineal representatives indicates that both populations have been separated for a considerable time but share ancient genetic and possibly linguistic heritage (Knight et al. 2003). The phylogenetic position of A and B lineages nearest the root of the Y tree, their survivorship in isolated populations, and accumulated variation are suggestive of an early diversification and dispersal of human populations within Africa, and an early widespread distribution of human populations in that continent. The discovery of Homo sapiens fossils in Ethiopia dating to 160,000 years ago is consistent with an African origin of our species (White et al. 2003)."
Haplogroups A & B are Khoisanid, right Erroneous E? I guessed they mixed with central African Pygmies, Malians, Sudanese, and Ethiopians right? You sure do know how to misread and distort studies don't you? A and B are the oldest clades in the *WORLD* and are thus ancestral African clades, they belong to no particular race or phenotype although they're restricted to sub-Saharan Africans in low frequencies across the continent. How the heck are they Khoisanid you idiot? Your reading *NON*-COMPREHENSION makes you appear borderline of being mentally retarded. A and B clades simply represent the earliest human expansions in Africa. They were later replaced by E haplogroups which comprise the majority of African paternal ancestry, thats why they found at a low frequency in Africa *TODAY*.
[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 28 May 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: E3b *CANNOT* be connected to a particular phenotype[Caucasoids], CASE CLOSED!
E3b is found at high frequencies only in Caucasoid groups like Kabyles, and racially intermediate groups like Ethiopians and Somalis. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).
quote:A and B clades simply represent the earliest human expansions in Africa.
Yes, and the Khoisan are believed to be the oldest humans.
quote:E3b is found at high frequencies only in Caucasoid groups like Kabyles, and racially intermediate groups like Ethiopians and Somalis. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).
As has been stated again for you, Kabyles have E3b2-M81, Somalis have E3b1-M78 gamma and delta you idiot, and E3b2-M81 came from sub-Saharan African. The two populations [Kabyles and Somalis/Ethiopians do *NOT* share the same clades of E3b just as Europeans do *NOT* share the same clades of E3b with Kabyles you idiot, quit obduscating the facts by posting meaningless trash about phenotypes and genotypes. Somalis and Ethiopians are *GENETICALLY* intermediate between *AFRICANS AND NON-AFRICANS*, this has already ben stated in published literature before and has nothing to do with race nor E3b since a small group of Africans left East Africa and colonised the world *BEFORE* E3b even left Africa or even arose in Africa you idiot, so your mythological 'pre-historic' non-African looking East Africans factors very little in this equation. Before you make make stupid assertions read published literature first. Both E3b1-M78 and E3b2-M81 came from *WITHIN* Africa from East African E3b-M35 which was derived from sub-Saharan African E3b*-M35. Somalis and Ethiopians are Elongated Africans as stated in literature, so deal with it.
quote:Yes, and the Khoisan are believed to be the oldest humans.
Proof and why are you contradicting yourself idiot? Khoisan have an East African origin which would contradict your use of Howells' crania of proof because these 'pre-historic' East Africans *DID NOT* resemble the San, remember, the San are amongst Howells' crania, so why isnt there any direct match? If 41% of haplogroup B is in Ethiopians, why are you calling them racially intermediate between Negroids and caucasoids? Your posts are one helluva a bunch of contradictions, retractions and distortions.
quote:Erroneous obtuses:learn how to spell "Mediterranean
Wrong again you mediterranian misanthrope.
Correct spelling is: sub-saharan.E3b is sub-saharan [Underhill, Semino, Cruciani, et. al]
No E3b in the mediterranian - there is however downstream E3b1 lineage denoting admixture from Black Africa. Sorry.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: Erroneous: Your posts are one helluvabunch of contradictions, retractions and distortions.
Obviously. And here is why...
Lying is always a form of control. Some people are pathological liars, having learned that they get a rush from manipulating others with lies. But most people lie when they are afraid of the consequences of telling the truth. - Margaret Paul, Ph.D
From RAS website:
comment: Dienekes simply chose to replace ‘sub-Saharan’ with Negroid and ‘East African’ with ‘East Africa Caucasoid’ mainly for the reason that Greeks and peoples of the Balkans possess a clade of E3b1[E-M78 alpha] that’s closely related to a E3b1 clade that’s rooted in East Africa[E-M78 gamma], since E3b is East African in origin according to published literature.
reply: dienekes is afraid of e3b and his east african genes LOLOLOL
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 28 May 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: As has been stated again for you, Kabyles have E3b2-M81, Somalis have E3b1-M78 gamma and delta you idiot
So what? You Afronuts maintain that anyone with any clade of E3b is "Black". So now Kabyles are an exception because they're E-M81? How about Greeks? They're E-M78-alpha which has a European origin.
quote:E3b2-M81 came from sub-Saharan African
Wait, so now E-M81 is "Black" again? Make up your mind!
Anyway, you're wrong. E-M81 is indigenous North African, with a more distant origin in the Levant:
"Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East. [...] These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans." (Arredi et al. 2004)
quote:Khoisan have an East African origin which would contradict your use of Howells' crania of proof because these 'pre-historic' East Africans *DID NOT* resemble the San, remember, the San are amongst Howells' crania, so why isnt there any direct match?
The San are now heavily mixed with Bantu migrants. They're not pure descendents of pre-historic East Africans.
[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 29 May 2005).]
quote:So what? You Afronuts maintain that anyone with any clade of E3b is "Black". So now Kabyles are an exception because they're E-M81? How about Greeks? They're E-M78-alpha which has a European origin.
Who ever said E3b is black you idiot? I said that E3b-M35 is a derivative of E3b*-M35 which is sub-Saharan in origin. According Luis et tal, E3b2-M81 came to North Africa in a northern migration. No one here is stating that E3b is black, what is being stated here is that Europeans carry a lineage[E3b1-M78 alpha] that is more closely related to East Africans and sub-Saharans than to typically European lineages. Does that make Europeans who bear the lineage mixed race or part black racially? No! Does it make Europeans who bear this lineage in substantial frequecies *genetically* more related to sub-Saharans? Yes!
Erroneous E wrote:
quote:Wait, so now E-M81 is "Black" again? Make up your mind!
Anyway, you're wrong. E-M81 is indigenous North African, with a more distant origin in the
Do you even read the full text in those studies? That same paper said that E3b2 is *RARE* in the Middle East, so there is no reason to propose a distant origin for it in the Levant. Egyptians have it a frequency of 10%. The root of it still lies in Africa:
"In addition, genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is rare in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2004), making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage."
And:
"Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa."
Thus the root of E3b2-M81 still lies in East Africa, not the Middle East.
Erroneous E wrote:
quote: The San are now heavily mixed with Bantu migrants. They're not pure descendents of pre-historic East Africans.
It makes no difference idiot, san were amongst the samples used by Howells and there was no direct match according the parts of that study you and fellow Medicentrist Dienekes keep spamming on the net.
[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 29 May 2005).]
posted
For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would 'continue' to engage with a person (like Evil), who doesn't have the most basic geography down, which is an essential ingredient to understanding genetic studies. Nor has he offered anything new (other than discarded 19th century scraps), let alone address the longstanding questions he's had to face; it is symptomatic of a classic troll. Maybe because, it simply fun humiliating him. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: Who ever said E3b is black you idiot?
Um, try every Afronut in this forum. Making Ancient Greeks "Black" via E3b is how culturally unproductive Negroes get their self-esteem.
quote:Does it make Europeans who bear this lineage in substantial frequecies *genetically* more related to sub-Saharans? Yes!
But it doesn't. It makes North and East Africans who bear it in substantial frequencies genetically more related to Eurasians:
quote:Do you even read the full text in those studies?
Yes, and the study concludes that E3b was carried to North Africa by Neolithic farmers from the Levant (not Arabs), and that the E-M81 mutation arose in North Africa and subsequently expanded there. Accordingly, North Africans are related to Middle Easterners and not Sub-Saharan Africans:
"...the positions of the samples in the MDS plot describe a latitudinal axis, from North Africa and the Middle East in the upper part to Central and southern Africa in the lower part."
quote:It makes no difference idiot, san were amongst the samples used by Howells and there was no direct match according the parts of that study you and fellow Medicentrist Dienekes keep spamming on the net.
Of course it makes a difference. If the San have Bantu admixture, then they have Negroid racial elements. They're not the same people as pre-historic East Africans.
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