Thread after thread there is a disagreement on this. OK, time to spill the facts. NO OPINIONS ON HERE. Please ignore anyone using their "opinion".
Time to spill the facts and evidence no opinion. It would be nice if we got more into measuring the skull and genetics than skin color like "pure black" or "white".
People Many theories have been proposed regarding the origin of the early Egyptians, a subject still imbued with controversy today (see Controversy over race of Ancient Egyptians).
Egyptian society was a merging of North and East African as well as Southwest Asian peoples. Modern genetics reveals [2] [3] that the Egyptian population today is characterized by paternal lineages common to North Africans primarily, and to some Near Eastern peoples. Studies based on the maternal lineages closely links modern Egyptians with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia [4] [5]. The ancient Egyptians themselves traced their origin to a land they called Punt, or "Ta Neteru" ("Land of the Gods"), which most Egyptologists locate in the area encompassing Eritrea and the Ethiopian Highlands and as far south as Somalia.
A recent bioanthropological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians confirms dental traits most characteristic of North African and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian populations. The study also establishes biological continuity from the predynastic to the post-pharaonic periods. Among the samples included is skeletal material from the Hawara tombs of Fayum, which was found to most closely resemble the Badarian series of the predynastic [6] [7]. A study based on stature and body proportions suggests that Nilotic or tropical body characteristics were also present in some later groups [8].
Champollion the Younger, who deciphered the Rosetta Stone, claimed in Expressions et Termes Particuliers that kmt referred to a 'negroid' population. Modern day professional Egyptologists, anthropologists, and linguists, however, overwhelmingly agree that the term referred to the dark soil of the Nile Valley rather than the people, which contrasted with dSrt or the "red land" of the Sahara desert.
In c. 450 BC, Herodotus wrote, "the Colchians are Egyptians... on the fact that they are swarthy (melanchrôs) and wooly-haired (oulothrix)" (Histories Book 2:104). Melanchros was also used by Homer to describe the sunburnt complexion of Odysseus (Od. 16.176).
Although analyzing the hair of ancient Egyptian mummies from the Late Middle Kingdom has revealed evidence of a stable diet [9], mummies from circa 3200 BC show signs of severe anemia and hemolytic disorders [10][11][12].
Yes another site that contains either inconsistancies or is being misinterpreted by yours truly. (most likely both)
quote: People Many theories have been proposed regarding the origin of the early Egyptians, a subject still imbued with controversy today (see Controversy over race of Ancient Egyptians).
Egyptian society was a merging of North and East African as well as Southwest Asian peoples. Modern genetics reveals [2] [3] that the Egyptian population today is characterized by paternal lineages common to North Africans primarily, and to some Near Eastern peoples. Studies based on the maternal lineages closely links modern Egyptians with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia [4] [5]. The ancient Egyptians themselves traced their origin to a land they called Punt, or "Ta Neteru" ("Land of the Gods"), which most Egyptologists locate in the area encompassing Eritrea and the Ethiopian Highlands and as far south as Somalia.
LOL The paternal lineages they speak of are no doubt E3b which is an *African* lineage that spread to the Near East. The maternal lineages only further confirm this.
quote:A recent bioanthropological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians confirms dental traits most characteristic of North African and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian populations. The study also establishes biological continuity from the predynastic to the post-pharaonic periods. Among the samples included is skeletal material from the Hawara tombs of Fayum, which was found to most closely resemble the Badarian series of the predynastic [6] [7]. A study based on stature and body proportions suggests that Nilotic or tropical body characteristics were also present in some later groups [8].
LOL Yes, these studies show the Egyptians having less in common with the Western Asia and more in common with North Africa and East Africa by the Badarian skulls.
quote:Champollion the Younger, who deciphered the Rosetta Stone, claimed in Expressions et Termes Particuliers that kmt referred to a 'negroid' population. Modern day professional Egyptologists, anthropologists, and linguists, however, overwhelmingly agree that the term referred to the dark soil of the Nile Valley rather than the people, which contrasted with dSrt or the "red land" of the Sahara desert.
Of course the true etymology of Kemet has already been discussed here
quote:In c. 450 BC, Herodotus wrote, "the Colchians are Egyptians... on the fact that they are swarthy (melanchrôs) and wooly-haired (oulothrix)" (Histories Book 2:104). Melanchros was also used by Homer to describe the sunburnt complexion of Odysseus (Od. 16.176).
Although analyzing the hair of ancient Egyptian mummies from the Late Middle Kingdom has revealed evidence of a stable diet [9], mummies from circa 3200 BC show signs of severe anemia and hemolytic disorders [10][11][12].
In other words, this whole source contradicts AMR. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ It depends on what you mean by 'purity', but at least I have proven over and over again that the Egyptian population as well as other populations in North and East Africa until historical times consisted of indigenous Africans and not some big melting-pot of peoples from Europe or Asia as you claim...
Which you still have not proven yet, despite countless postings and dozens of threads. That is the real pity! Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: Djehuti still insist in his African purity theory. What a pitty.
KAWASHKAR
Like I said before, the only way to defeat trolls like Kawashkar is to beat them in their own game. You have to scream louder than he does; essentially, one needs a troll to defeat a troll
While this troll is being spanked on particular threads* due to his ignorance (i.e. one can sustain by just repeatedly pointing out his ignorance to him), others can carry on other relevant topics that he will not feel the urge to participate in. Eventually, people will know his REPUTATION and avoid topics he speaks on. In time, when he realises no-one is really listening, he'll f*uck off.
*usually, guys like Kawashkar can only have anything to say on race related threads - they don't have the mental capacity to comprehend other aspects of Ancient Egyptian life (such as its philosophy or science), which is why when his "sort" took over Egypt, they could not maintain the status quo, hence, they are the REASON for the mess Egypt is in today.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Meskel: What were the ancient egyptians?
Thread after thread there is a disagreement on this. OK, time to spill the facts. NO OPINIONS ON HERE. Please ignore anyone using their "opinion".
Time to spill the facts and evidence no opinion. It would be nice if we got more into measuring the skull and genetics than skin color like "pure black" or "white".
Start...........
Ancient Egyptians were Congoids, slender Congoids, thats your answer.
Posts: 24 | From: Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Meskel: What were the ancient egyptians? NO OPINIONS ON HERE. Please ignore anyone using their "opinion". Time to spill the facts and evidence no opinion. It would be nice if we got more into measuring the skull and genetics . . .
Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples Joel D. Irish Published 2006
Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.
Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or “European” Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data S.O.Y. Keita Published 2005
Male Badarian crania were analyzed using the generalized distance of Mahalanobis in a comparative analysis with other African and European series from the Howells’s database. The study was carried out to examine the affinities of the Badarians to evaluate, in preliminary fashion, a demic diffusion hypothesis that postulates that horticulture and the Afro-Asiatic language family were brought ultimately from southern Europe. (The assumption was made that the southern Europeans would be more similar to the central and northern Europeans than to any indigenous African populations.) The Badarians show a greater affinity to indigenous Africans while not being identical. This suggests that the Badarians were more affiliated with local and an indigenous African population than with Europeans. It is more likely that Near Eastern/southern European domesticated animals and plants were adopted by indigenous Nile Valley people without a major immigration of non-Africans. There was more of cultural transfer.
posted
^^I hope the above is a joke. Exactly what is the nature of a "Congoid".
If it is a joke, I'm afraid it might go over the heads of a few people here. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^I will not even respond to anything here and just leave you clowns to argue amongst yourselves and thus drown in your stupidities.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Where is the red brownish Ancient Egyptians, between those somalis?
Those are pure and proud Somalis, and they are black as midnight and possibly "congoid", they don't give a sh#t about AE or redish skin.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^I will not even respond to anything here and just leave you clowns to argue amongst yourselves and thus drown in your stupidities.
Please define Congoid, I'm still waiting on an answer.
Posts: 24 | From: Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^I will not even respond to anything here and just leave you clowns to argue amongst yourselves and thus drown in your stupidities.
Humor is the only way to erode dogma. Brother of the temple of egyptian knights
posted
^^ this kawashkar will LIE to his own mother.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
quote: A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.
Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C.
Istituto di Medicina Legale, Universita Cattolica del Sacro Cuore di Roma, Rome, Italy. b_arredi@libero.it
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
I love the Somalis, they are our brothers in any category you chose.
But this guys got me wrapped up, sorry.
hey AMR1 no problem, i'm just telling you the truth, 99.98% of somalis, i'm talking about those almost million who exist in diaspora dont care or give a sh#T about AE for a second, therefor i think it would be best to keep somalis out of this kind of clashing.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another TOTALLY idiotic thread that is a purposeful circle of B.S.
First it falsely presumes that these literate, civilized people, the Ancient Egyptians, did not leave in WRITING documentation of their origins and who they were as a people, racially, culturally, and any other "lly."
This "presumption" then allows the "uninformed" to then posit speculations based upon any number of criteria to come to a conclusion to which, alas!, the individual wants to believe in the first place! It's both delusional and very sad.
The Ancient Egyptians, have left to posterity, their origins, their ethnicity, their beliefs, etc., etc.; (it isn't even necessary to bring in examples of their resemblance to other East Africans, which is merely collaborative examples). If you REALLY, GENUINELY want to know "what were the Egyptians?" Don't speculate, for God's sake, just read their documents. It's all there.
Hell, they could be Martians if that's what one chooses to believe, however, an intelligent person would take them at their word as to who and what they said they were. It is totally pointless to debate the stubbornly ignorant on such a salient point!
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Wally No body is pure in Egypt, it was the main door and still the main door for in and out of Africa.
Many Egyptians originiated from the Highlands of Ethiopia, but the whole humanity originated from there 60-150 thousand years ago.
But people moved into Africa by the hords around 20000-5000 years ago.
So the AE were simply telling us where we all started. History is more complicated than you try to portray.
So what you're saying is, when the 'Ancient Egyptians' (supposedly) described their origins, they were describing the origins of ALL people and not just of EGYPTIAN/KEMETIAN people?
Please clarify.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
May be, may be they were describing the lifeline of the Nile which is the reason for their existance, not their own ethnic origin. The Nile startes from today's Ethiopia
posted
The ancient Egyptian traced their origin to Punt, in the same time their paternal lineges, gene study, dental work traces, that they are North African, and Western Asian, maternal lineage to Eriteria/Ethiopia.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: May be, may be they were describing the lifeline of the Nile which is the reason for their existance, not their own ethnic origin. The Nile startes from today's Ethiopia
I agree,
And that makes sense. The origin of the Nile perfectly could transform into the origin of life and people. More info, please.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Wally No body is pure in Egypt, it was the main door and still the main door for in and out of Africa. Many Egyptians originiated from the Highlands of Ethiopia, but the whole humanity originated from there 60-150 thousand years ago. But people moved into Africa by the hords around 20000-5000 years ago.
So the AE were simply telling us where we all started. History is more complicated than you try to portray.
Why do you keep on with this neo-Nazi nonsense about "nobody is pure in Egypt" and the totally besides the point on the origins of man?
What you are stubbornly avoiding, as most of you who are in denial resort to, is the fact that the Ancient Egyptians emphatically described themselves as a Black people, and their nation as a Black nation, they never asserted that they were a "pure, master race." It was for centuries, one of the most prosperous and therefore, economic magnets of the ancient world. It had communities of non-Black peoples who resided mostly in the Delta, from the earliest times up until the end of Pharaonic Egyptian civilization; that ultimately was colonized by these same immigrant populations. This is a factor of all grand civilizations; they tend to attract folks from the outside...
The point that you hopelessly keep avoiding is the REALITY that this was, as described by the people themselves, a BLACK AFRICAN CIVILIZATION. So, now you can continue on with your self-delusional denial of historical reality. I am through with you as you are merely side-stepping the point...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok... so they were describing the lifeline of the Nile which begins in Ethiopia.
quote: Wally wrote: First it falsely presumes that these literate, civilized people, the Ancient Egyptians, did not leave in WRITING documentation of their origins and who they were as a people, racially, culturally, and any other "lly."
So you're saying that after reading the above quoted post from Wally, you think the Ancient Egyptians chose to document the history of their ancestors' ancestors; the (Ethiopian) ancestors of the Egyptians' ancestors who hail from the Near East (i.e arabs). *Ethiopia -> Near East (Semites) -> Egypt*.
So these Egyptians (who now lived in Africa) did not find it neccessary to document the history of their Near East/Asian ancestors but PREFERRED TO WRITE ABOUT THIER LONG AGO ANSCESTORS, THE ETHIOPIANS?
He seems to have an arguable point (though far fetched). Who can disprove this?
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
By the way Near Eastern 10000 years ago were not even called Arabs.
There was no Arabs than. ------- Punt is more important to Egyptians today and in the past and always, regardless of their race make up, it is where the Nile comes from, the life line of Egypt.
80% of the Nile waters come from Ethiopia, 20% from Uganda.
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: From Kawashkar:
What a blow to Afrocentric excentricity:
we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
Don't confuse genetics and linguistics (and don't forget the expansion of E3b which matches that of Afro-Asiatic). See here, e.g., which sums up current thought in 1998 (mainly pointing to an African origin).
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: 80% of the Nile waters come from Ethiopia, 20% from Uganda.
85-6%, actually, but not all of it is from the Blue Nile (some are from other tributaries). That has nothing to do with ethnicity or anything discussed here, however.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Don't confuse genetics and linguistics (and don't forget the expansion of E3b which matches that of Afro-Asiatic). ...
haplogroup E3b2 is not E3b. It is a mutation farther down the road. According to the paper comes from the Middle East! Together with the Afroasiatic expansion!
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: haplogroup E3b2 is not E3b. It is a mutation farther down the road. According to the paper comes from the Middle East! Together with the Afroasiatic expansion!
A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.
Quote:
"Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa."
posted
Thanks Myra for putting some truth in this thread. Kawashkar E3a and E3b are part of the Pn2 clade and they both originate in Africa. lets see how the clades are different:
as you can clearly see their is not much difference between these clades. I don't know where Kawashkar is getting his info from but I think he needs to read this:
Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Areahttp://www.ftdna.com/pdf/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf
This is more info about E3b and E3b2
"The current distributions of the haplogroups can suggest geographical origins, and their TMRCAs provide some constraints on the times of their spread. The M35 lineage (see the phylogeny in fig. 1A for marker locations) is thought to have arisen in East Africa, on the basis of its high frequency and diversity there (Cruciani et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004), and to have given rise to M81 in North Africa. The TMRCAs for E3b (8.3 KY, 95% CI 5.212.4 KY; or 14.4 KY, 95% CI 9.319.3 KY; table 2) and E3b2 (2.88.2 KY) should thus bracket the spread of E3b2 in North Africa. These times contrast sharply with estimates of 53 ± 21 KYA for the M35 lineage and 32 ± 11 KYA for the M81 lineage, by use of a constant-sized population model, or 30 ± 6 and 19 ± 4 KYA, respectively, by use of an expanding population model (Bosch et al. 2001). They are, however, more in accordance with times of 26.5 KYA (without a useful CI) for the M215 mutation (intermediate between M35 and M96 in the phylogeny; see fig. 1A) and 5.6 KYA for M81 (Cruciani et al. 2004) or of 29.2 ± 4.1 KYA for M35 and 8.6 ± 2.3 KYA for M81 (Semino et al. 2004)." A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n2/41184/41184.text.html
This study deals with E3b:
E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b, that is, it had
the highest number of different E3b clades,
a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally,
the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: And we are not talking about E3b but E3b2.
E3b2 is rare outside North Africa (Cruciani et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 and references therein), and is otherwise known only from Mali, Niger, and Sudan to the immediate south, and the Near East and Southern Europe at very low frequencies.
.
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
That is what I was waiting for. Some loonie that claim I have no proof.
Read please, that explains the peopling of North Africa. Remember E3b2, not E3b. Read the conclusion in the abstract and the full paper below:
quote:
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East .
Topic Closed
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
It depends on what you mean by 'purity', but at least I have proven over and over again that the Egyptian population as well as other populations in North and East Africa until historical times consisted of indigenous Africans and not some big melting-pot of peoples from Europe or Asia as you claim...![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic