quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Here are what Hierniaux measured among elongated Africans so called narrow faced Africans: Tutsi of Rwanda:
* Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5
Masai:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0
Galla(Oromo):
* Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0
Sab Somali:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8
Warsingali Somali:
* Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0
I hope that can give you some indications.
Evergreen Writes:
Thank you, but can you please address my questions -
What is the width that differentiates a broad faced West African from a narrow-faced one? What are the geographic parameters of WA?
Also, is E3b "rare" in Europe?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Why has a thread about the origin of Tutsi (a Bantu people) all of a sudden turned into 'The Horner's Corner' (to quote a past poster in here)?!! LOL
To HornAfrican, 'AFRICA I' is a Habesha which means he is as much a Horn African as YOU. Not like it matters, although the guy is nutty for being obsessed with African peoples' physical appearances! Some of what 'AFRICA' says is ignorant true enough, but some of what you say is no different with your writings of "Congolid" and such which is very reminicent of past (banned) trolls like Nadeed and Leba!
To Araweelo, I believe Yonis is correct as the link you provided mentioned nothing of Jaberti's ethncity. Yonis's finding makes more sense that the name was applied to Horn Africans who were already converted to Islam.
And lastly, 'HornAfrican' makes an interesting point when he speaks of urban cultures in Somalia being in south further away from Yemen and Arabia proper.
I find it funny how people make the generalization that all Horn Africans were nomads or that all Arabs were nomads when obviously there were sedentary peoples among both groups. Speaking of which...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I am just somewhat perturbed by the constant talk of Somalis having 'Arab' ancestry, when "Arabs" themsevles have dubious ancestry! Not to mention the many Yemenis who look not much different from Horn Africans simply because they themselves are of Horn African descent! It would probably be more accurate to say Yemenis have Somali ancestry than the other way around.
What's funny is that early south Arabian sedentary kingdoms especially those of Yemen were created by people who in appearance were strikingly similar to Horn people (black). And in Biblical texts were described as literally 'Arabian Kushites'.
So even if Darood and Issaq legends are true that their ancestors came from Yemen, perhaps it would not make much of a difference since these people could very well have origins in the Horn anyway!!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Here are what Hierniaux measured among elongated Africans so called narrow faced Africans: Tutsi of Rwanda:
* Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5
Masai:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0
Galla(Oromo):
* Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0
Sab Somali:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8
Warsingali Somali:
* Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What's funny is that early south Arabian sedentary kingdoms especially those of Yemen were created by people who in appearance were strikingly similar to Horn people (black). And in Biblical texts were described as literally 'Arabian Kushites'.
So even if Darood and Issaq legends are true that their ancestors came from Yemen, perhaps it would not make much of a difference since these people could very well have origins in the Horn anyway!!
Evergreen Writes:
Good point!
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Well if one assume that the majority of West Africans are broad faced, one can deduct that the fact that E3b haplogroups are rare in West Africa compare to East Africans means that it is also rare among broad faced (and obviously among narrow faced West and Central Africans: Fulanis and Tutsis).
That's all you've been doing: throwing out your personal "assumptions" that lack objective spine.
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I:
Here are what Hierniaux measured among elongated Africans so called narrow faced Africans: Tutsi of Rwanda:
* Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5
Masai:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0
Galla(Oromo):
* Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0
Sab Somali:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8
Warsingali Somali:
* Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0
I hope that can give you some indications.
This clearly doesn't answer all the *specific* various questions and requests put before you, including the one pertaining to a single study that objectively detailes the connection between the facial structures of contributors of DNA samples and the markers identified.
You cite this Hiernaux cranio-metric compilation, without elaboration of your understanding of the post, as some sort of support for your unsubstantiated posts. It brings to question, whether you understood the citation. Prior to that, you posted a Luis et al. map, which shows select samples from select countries. Not only do you ignore Hiernaux table detailing diversity amongst Africans, *including* West Africans, thereby contradicting you, but you also fail to see the contradiction in your citations from studies whose results were arrived at independently from one another, and the ends to which you were hoping to use them; the Luis et map shows that the Tutsi samples of that study, predominantly constituted of the E3a-marker bearing chromosomes, yet the separate study and independently derived results of the Hiernaux piece cited, shows that the nasal and cephalic indices [their 'modal' rep., I take it] of the Tutsi models examined were quite comparable to the Galla and the designated Somalis, whom you acknowledge as largely E3b bearing "elongated" and "so called narrow faced" Africans groups.
^Since apparently the markers don't tell us the cranio-metric specificities, all the more reason the following warrants evidential backed up:
Yes based on existing studies it's clear that broad faced west African have much less E3b haplogroups compared to broad faced east africans like the Nilo-Saharans from Ethiopia or the East African Bantus from Kenya and Tanzania...- by Africa I
...and this:
Well if one assume that the majority of West Africans are broad faced... - by Africa I
You've dodged this question several times already, but why would you "assume" that, when you've noted that this was "clear" from the unnamed "existing studies" that told you about the genetic matter in question?
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I:
I meant to say that it is rare to find E3b haplogroups in West Africa(I was only thinking about non Berber groups). My point was to show that narrow faced Africans and broad faced Africans don't have necasserily the same genetic makeup. As an example Tutsi and Somali don't have much in common genetically, same thing with broad faced Ethiopian and broad faced West African. If you can prove it otherwise, please do so.
Again, perspective: For instance, these two groups pretty much share the YAP+, M96, P2 and several other markers, barring *relative* frequencies of certain post-P2 UEP markers.
On a side note, your elusive study(s) detailing both the genetic and the facial structures of "broad faced Ethiopian and broad faced West African" has not been forgotten.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Let me repeat myself with: E3b haplogroups are rare among non Berber speaking West Africans compare to broad faced East and Southern Africans...please prove that I'm wrong using scientific studies...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Evergreen...I already answered one of your question, please read the thread and then come back. Otherwise you are wasting my time...please don't repeat a question I already answered...don't waste my time.
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Let me repeat myself with: E3b haplogroups are rare among non Berber speaking West Africans compare to broad faced East and Southern Africans...please prove that I'm wrong using scientific studies...
That's what you've been reduced to, repeating hot air. What's new? Answering the questions at hand, perhaps(?); NOT!
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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...please prove that I'm wrong using scientific studies...
Ever been taught that one can't prove a *delusion* wrong? Apparently, not. What study have you cited, fulfilling these request:
First, how do you know the facial structures of the peoples sampled, when that information was never given to you? If not, then cite the study which describes the facial morphology of the contributors of the samples.
Second, going back to a question from me that you dodged earlier, can you cite a study that purports to have studied "Nilo-Saharan speaking Ethiopians" independently from other groups therein, and has revealed that the E3b percentages amongst them, is higher than that of what you refer to as "broad faced west Africans".
^Produce the studies which meet these requirements. Also, feel free to answer other outstanding questions that have apparently overwhelmed you enough to dodge them.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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And yes, I intend to correct you. If one were to pick specific sub-clades of E3b, where would that leave your claim cited above; would it hold true? It is all about perspective and the prevailing agenda of the party who's perspective is in question.
Meanwhile going back to this question, unattended by Africa, I'll hereby use Cruciani et al. 2004 examples...
Going by specific sub-clades of E3b, for select samples from Cruciani et al.’s collection, we have:
E-M78 %
Ethiopian Jews n = 22 9.1
Amhara n = 34 8.8
Ethiopian Oromo n = 24 32
Wolayta n = 12 16.7
Somali n = 23 52.1
Borana (Oromo) from Kenya n = 7 71.4
Kenya - Bantu n = 28 3.6
Kenyan Nilo-Saharans n = 18 11.1
Senegalese Mandinka n = 16 6.3
Niger Tuaregs n = 22 4.5
Southern African groups had no E-M78
E-M35* %
But when it comes to undifferentiated E-M35 lineages, contrast that to the lack of E-M78 chromosomes:
Southern African !Kung n = 64 10.9
Southern African Khwe n = 26 30.8
Southern African Bantu n = 8 12.5
Ethiopian Jews n = 22 9.1
Amhara n = 34 2.9
Ethiopia Oromo n = 12 12
Ethiopia Wolayta n = 12 16.7
Somali n = 23 17.4
Kenya Borana n = 7 14.3
No detection noted in Senegalese Mandika and Niger Tuaregs
E-M81 %
Tuaregs n = 22 9.1
Aside from Tuaregs, only northern Egyptians and coastal northwest African Tamazight groups were noted for E-M81.
So, if we went by this study alone, and examined the frequency of certain E3b sub-clades amongst certain sub-Saharan groups, we will likely get different answers for the respective clades. If the question was asked about M78, it could be said that based on the study at hand, it is 'rare' in Southern African groups, and lower in Kenyan Bantus than either the Senegalese Mandinkas or Niger Tuaregs. Conversely, the Kenyan Nilo-Saharan samples show relatively higher frequencies than either the Senegalese Mandinkas or Niger Tuaregs based on this study. The Senegalese Mandinka M78 frequency even compares with that in some of the sub-Saharan samples from East African regions located above Kenya.
For E-M35 undifferentiated, the trend is reversed, wherein the E-M35* chromosomes in either Kenyan groups or Southern groups are more prevalent than in the aforementioned Sub-Saharan West African samples. Here, Southern African groups compare closely, if not higher in some cases, with those in sub-Saharan East African groups.
Similarly, E-M81 appears more prevalent in sub-Saharan West Africa than in either sub-Saharan East Africa or Southern African samples where it is 'rare', according to this study.
"Perspective"; as demonstrated, it can make a difference depending on what angle the perception is undertaken. It is doubtful that an objective person can come out of examining this study, and proclaim that E-M78 chromosomes are 'rare' in West Africa, including amongst sub-Saharan West Africans.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I am just somewhat perturbed by the constant talk of Somalis having 'Arab' ancestry, when "Arabs" themsevles have dubious ancestry! Not to mention the many Yemenis who look not much different from Horn Africans simply because they themselves are of Horn African descent! It would probably be more accurate to say Yemenis have Somali ancestry than the other way around.
What's funny is that early south Arabian sedentary kingdoms especially those of Yemen were created by people who in appearance were strikingly similar to Horn people (black). And in Biblical texts were described as literally 'Arabian Kushites'.
So even if Darood and Issaq legends are true that their ancestors came from Yemen, perhaps it would not make much of a difference since these people could very well have origins in the Horn anyway!!
Do any 'Horners' have anything to say about this?
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I think you're unnecessarily trying to explain away any possibility of foreign admixture. While I don't think Sheikh Darood or Ishaaq were necessarily real people, even if they were, there's no need to try to "negrify" them. Sure, plenty of Yemenis have East African ancestry, but they are their own people with their own ancestry.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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oh...would you all...PLEASE stop using terms like "horners"...PLEASE?!
so irritating.
Do you suggest a better word? It's a quick means of reference, and easily understood( simply think of it as a slang word).
Although you can see its flaws, aren't you at least vaguely aware of what its reffering to(the latter is what counts after all)?
Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: I think you're unnecessarily trying to explain away any possibility of foreign admixture. While I don't think Sheikh Darood or Ishaaq were necessarily real people, even if they were, there's no need to try to "negrify" them. Sure, plenty of Yemenis have East African ancestry, but they are their own people with their own ancestry.
I am not in any way trying to explain away admixture in Horn Africans. Of course there is admixture as denoted by the presence of J lineage in Ethiopia and K and L lineages in Somalia. My whole point is why do people always emphasize Eurasian ancestry in Africans when the converse is just as true! Hence, the claim that Africans have not only Eurasian ancestry but that these ancestors were light-skinned. There are various Yemeni groups that are black, some of whom having ancestry from Africa. That is all I am saying. By the way, "negrify" is a silly term first coined by white scholars.
quote:Originally posted by Nefar:
quote:'Horners'
oh...would you all...PLEASE stop using terms like "horners" and The Horn of Africa ...PLEASE?!
so irritating.
LOL I agree! But remember it was a 'Hor', I mean an East African from the 'Horn' region who first started using that silly term in the first place! Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yom, you are going to far: Sheikh Issaq existed, here his tomb in Somaliland:
Isaaq Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source
The Isaaq (also Isaq, Ishaak) (Somali language: Reer Sheik Isaxaaq); is one of the main Somali clans. The Isaaq mainly live in Somaliland and the Somali Region of Ethiopia. The populations of the four major cities of Somaliland– Hargeisa, Burco, Berbera, and Ceerigaabo – are predominantly Isaaq.
Tradition states that the Isaaq clan was founded by the arrival of Sheikh Isaq from Arabia in the twelfth or thirteenth centuries. He settled at the coastal town of Maydh in modern day Somaliland, where he married into the local Dir clan. His tomb is in Maydh. Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
There are certain things people from outside Somalis or don't understand how tribal politics works in Somalia cannot understand. Isaaq by origins are Dir. This is some thing their neighbours considered them past and present, their old poets confirm this even their educated class know and don't hide it. But they don't want to be seen as Dir, not because majority of them really care if they Arabs in origins or even want to be Arabs. They want to be an independent tribe like the Hawiye and Darood with equal share of power, being part of Dir doesn't allow them this. They even feel being part of Somalia wouldn't allow them this and that's why they want a country where they make up the majority. The Darood on the other hand is too complicated story that I am not going to explain.
Posts: 53 | From: Iran | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
^ Makes perfect sense. Mind you Somalis are not the only people in Africa who have such ancestral legends rooted in politics; nor is this phenomenon found in Africa alone.
An example would likely be the ancient Greek tribe called Danaans and their claim of their ancestral progenitor Danaus being Egyptian!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I know this an old thread but the point made below is so true,not just the maya but many other groups had different concepts of time,in africa time was considered generative - it is something that is generated day after day.It was NOT linear.
We are so colonised in our thinking these strange new terms "bantu","nilotic" "semetic" etc the ancient africans did not use these terms.If we want to understand egypt we must have some knowledge of african anthropology and african percepetions of themselves and those surrounding them.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: I am afraid that you guys are repeating the linear thinking of Westerners;ie, each graph shows a single starting point as if this is the original home of certain African peoples... Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Non-Westerners, such as the Maya, saw the world in a different fashion and in a similar fashion that Africans and other Orientals saw it: Dialectically, in a non-linear, recurring manner:
The fact that the Nile Valley had been occupied at a much earlier period, of peoples moving northward and eventually out of Africa, does not preclude the fact of later migrations, specifically of the historical Africans, nor does it preclude that these same Africans would, at various periods, as Diop explained, move southwards as well as westwards; like the ebb and flow of the tides.
Diop was a "Marxist" and his method of analysis exhibited this way of non-linear thinking, a thinking that was also exemplified by the Maya, the Ancient Egyptians, etc...
posted
Dr. Wilhelm Bleek used the term "Bantu" in it's current sense in 1862.This term has caused more insanity and death then people can bear to imagine [rwandan genocide for a start] as did terms like "hottentot/bushman et al" in the namibian genocide.
-------------------- remember mankind that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: I know this an old thread but the point made below is so true,not just the maya but many other groups had different concepts of time,in africa time was considered generative - it is something that is generated day after day.It was NOT linear.
That's true and I whole heartedly agree, but what does that have to do with the topic of this thread. Remember that Wally got scolded for using such a blatant red-herring.
quote:We are so colonised in our thinking these strange new terms "bantu","nilotic" "semetic" etc the ancient africans did not use these terms. If we want to understand egypt we must have some knowledge of african anthropology and african percepetions of themselves and those surrounding them.
I agree that we should not rely too much on foreign concepts and instead use the native terms and phrases of the peoples in discussion, but I don't see the problem in still using the linguistic terms of Westerners such as 'Bantu', 'Nilotic', etc. True they are not native to the African peoples they describe but they are in no way negative or desparaging, and they are also still linguistically valid not to mention convenient. Unless you have better terms to use.
quote: Dr. Wilhelm Bleek used the term "Bantu" in it's current sense in 1862. This term has caused more insanity and death then people can bear to imagine [rwandan genocide for a start] as did terms like "hottentot/bushman et al" in the namibian genocide.
Yours is a false cause argument. The name 'Bantu' itself is a perfectly valid linguistic term and one that is actually native in origin unlike the other Western linguistic designations. It is not the term itself that is the problem so much as its political and blantanlty erroneous usage. Thus all Rwandans both victims and perpertrators of the genocide were Bantus. Just as the victims of the Holocaust were as much Germans as the perpetrators. The terms that were the real problem were the bogus racial ones such as "Hamite" in the case of Rwanda and "Aryan" in the case of Germany.
And yes it's true that "Hottentot/bushmen" were colonialists terms, the racial motivation behind them were same.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Djehuti wrote: ------------------------------ The name 'Bantu' itself is a perfectly valid linguistic term ------------------------------
Is anyone not surprised that this filopeeeeno who hates the majority of Africans and believes in and I quote "inate inferiority to others" would say something like the above.
Their is not one group that calls themselves "bantu", especially prior to Europeans in Africa.
Djehuti you should stick with hanging out with your racist buddies at those race loon forums.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Gaygoyle9<-- wrote: Here's the filopeeeeno obsessed like a deranged nazi with Africans.
How am I obsessed with Africans when all I do is make a few knowledgeable responses about the topic. I'm not the one who creates these threads about Africans, you moron.
Here YOU are, the derranged nutcase obsessed with ME as seen with your three posts addressing me! LOL Sorry but you aren't getting my Pinoy d*ck. Since you brought up 'nazis', why don't you hook up with your neo-nazi boyfriend Wako-Ako?
I didn't even bother clicking your link; it's not even a direct link to a site but a google search! LOL I don't bother clicking any of your google search links. So what? I see it's about Filipino slaves. So? Most people educated on history know that after the ban on African slavery, Americans turned to slaves from Asia. Not just the Philippines but other countries like Indonesia, Malaysian, Vietnam, India, and even China. Your point?
quote: Djehuti wrote: ------------------------------ The name 'Bantu' itself is a perfectly valid linguistic term ------------------------------
Is anyone not surprised that this filopeeeeno who hates the majority of Africans and believes in and I quote "inate inferiority to others" would say something like the above.
Exactly where (and I mean cite an exact post) did I speak of any "inate inferiority"??! How is my defense of the linguistic classification of 'Bantu' an expression of 'hatred' for "the majority of Africans"??!
quote:Their is not one group that calls themselves "bantu", especially prior to Europeans in Africa.
Of course there is no specific group with the actual title of 'Bantu' but it is a native word which means people, you depraved dummy!
url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_languages
The word Bantu was first used by Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek (1827-1875) with the meaning 'people', as this is reflected in many of the languages of this group. A common characteristic of Bantu languages is that they use a stem form such as -ntu or -tu for 'person', and the plural prefix for people in many languages is ba-, together giving ba-ntu "people".
ROTFL at your ignorance and stupidity!
quote:Djehuti you should stick with hanging out with your racist buddies at those race loon forums.
I don't have any racist buddies, but I do have psycho fags like YOU chasing me around this forum. Cut it out!
quote: Djehuti, Why are you inudating this wonderful forum with both of your suttle and blatent racial views?
Why?
I give no such views, you delusionally derranged queer! Show me where I did?!!
You need serious pyschological help.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Bantu means "people" but it was only specific to one south african tribe,Bleek took all incidences of "Ba" in african languages and termed everybody bantu and of course every african who was lithe,tall,long nosed and whatnot was non-bantu.
Everyone knows lingustic terms are loaded with politics/power and get taken over as anthropological terms.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: I know this an old thread but the point made below is so true,not just the maya but many other groups had different concepts of time,in africa time was considered generative - it is something that is generated day after day.It was NOT linear.
That's true and I whole heartedly agree, but what does that have to do with the topic of this thread. Remember that Wally got scolded for using such a blatant red-herring.
quote:We are so colonised in our thinking these strange new terms "bantu","nilotic" "semetic" etc the ancient africans did not use these terms. If we want to understand egypt we must have some knowledge of african anthropology and african percepetions of themselves and those surrounding them.
I agree that we should not rely too much on foreign concepts and instead use the native terms and phrases of the peoples in discussion, but I don't see the problem in still using the linguistic terms of Westerners such as 'Bantu', 'Nilotic', etc. True they are not native to the African peoples they describe but they are in no way negative or desparaging, and they are also still linguistically valid not to mention convenient. Unless you have better terms to use.
quote: Dr. Wilhelm Bleek used the term "Bantu" in it's current sense in 1862. This term has caused more insanity and death then people can bear to imagine [rwandan genocide for a start] as did terms like "hottentot/bushman et al" in the namibian genocide.
Yours is a false cause argument. The name 'Bantu' itself is a perfectly valid linguistic term and one that is actually native in origin unlike the other Western linguistic designations. It is not the term itself that is the problem so much as its political and blantanlty erroneous usage. Thus all Rwandans both victims and perpertrators of the genocide were Bantus. Just as the victims of the Holocaust were as much Germans as the perpetrators. The terms that were the real problem were the bogus racial ones such as "Hamite" in the case of Rwanda and "Aryan" in the case of Germany.
And yes it's true that "Hottentot/bushmen" were colonialists terms, the racial motivation behind them were same.
posted
Great post Djehuti,something for me to look into. Yemens have the highest incidence of maternal sub saharan mtdna among arabs,any cause for all these black grandmothers?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What's funny is that early south Arabian sedentary kingdoms especially those of Yemen were created by people who in appearance were strikingly similar to Horn people (black). And in Biblical texts were described as literally 'Arabian Kushites'.
So even if Darood and Issaq legends are true that their ancestors came from Yemen, perhaps it would not make much of a difference since these people could very well have origins in the Horn anyway!!
posted
"The terms that were the real problem were the bogus racial ones such as "Hamite" in the case of Rwanda"
Yes I know,it was a clear case of favouritism on the germans part with the tutsis,linguists barely know the power of their terminology to seperate and divide.Since the hutu and tutsi had the same language and cultural habits.I would love to know if the tutsi loathed the "bantu" Hutu prior to the germans arriving?
Incidentally the Hutu and Twa are considered among some africans as the ancient parents of all africans "Everyone comes from the Hutu and Twa".
-------------------- remember mankind that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
How sick. I told you this boy has been going around on this forum since '05 claiming that Africans were the worlds slaves and his response is evidence.
Djehuti wrote: -------------------------------------- Most people educated on history know that after the ban on African slavery, Americans turned to slaves from Asia. --------------------------------------
Fool do some research sometimes instead of jocking on the posts of others like some kind of puppy.
People from England, France, and Germany, as well as other non-Africans were being sold at the same time that Africans were.
Your little deranged backdoor tactic to regulate slavery as something exclusively African has just been debunked.
People, I and others have said many times this boy was a liberal racist who delusionally believes in a racial hierarchy where Africans are the lowest.
-------------------------------- Not just the Philippines but other countries like Indonesia, Malaysian, Vietnam, India, and even China. --------------------------------
Yet another example of the racial hierarchy insanity that dominates this boy's mind. Notice how he says "even China" as if the Chinese are somehow above the other countries. As if there is something about them that makes them above slavery compared to the others. Why do you think this way Djehuti? Why do you rank some people above others? Why have you let the white man sodomize your mind? That is not intelligent at all.
Isn't your thinking reminisent of the Nazis in Germany and the way they regarded the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the eastern Europeans, and the people of the United Kingdom who weren't from England? We don't even have to go into how they felt about the rest of the non-European people of the world.
Djehuti what is wrong with your mind?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: I would ignore argyle104 barely worthy of response.
You're right, but I respond just to see him expose himself for the psychotic idiot he is. Notice he makes all these false accusations of me but fails to prove them. In the mean time he desperately makes multiple posts about me, I take it grab for my d***, I mean attention.
quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: "The terms that were the real problem were the bogus racial ones such as "Hamite" in the case of Rwanda"
Yes I know,it was a clear case of favouritism on the germans part with the tutsis,linguists barely know the power of their terminology to seperate and divide. Since the hutu and tutsi had the same language and cultural habits. I would love to know if the tutsi loathed the "bantu" Hutu prior to the germans arriving?
But you fail to see the point that 'Bantu' in its original and correct designation was a linguistic term. As such, all Rwandans-- *Ba-Tutsi, *Ba-Hutu, and even *Ba-Twa, are all Bantu as shown in their languages. And it wasn't the Germans but the Belgians who conquered Rwanda and began the racial divide. They began to notice stereotypical differences such as the Ba-Tutsi tending to be taller with so-called "caucasoid" features and so by the popular racial notions of that time assumed that they are descended from ancient black caucasoid i.e. 'Hamitic' race. As such, they promoted and patronized the Ba-Tutsi while oppressing the Ba-Hutu as "true negroids" and thus "true Bantu". Of course, they disregarded all linguistic, cultural, and even historical accounts of the natives themselves in favor of 'Hamitic' Egyptians or Arabians being the ancestors of the Tutsi.
It was Europeans through their notions of race that created racial hierarchies in the first place, not only in Africa but the rest of the world. Which is why I think Gaygoyle, the pyscho white Euro feels guilty about this and projects his guilt about "racial hierarchy" on to me, a person of color. LOL
quote:Incidentally the Hutu and Twa are considered among some africans as the ancient parents of all africans "Everyone comes from the Hutu and Twa".
Considered by whom?? Who thinks this??! Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Of course I won't even bother responding to his other posts of lies but...
quote:Gaygoyle9<-- wrote: since there is no editing feature let me clarify.
-------------------------- the people of the United Kingdom who weren't from England --------------------------
(meaning the Irish, Scotish, and Welsh).
It is obvious that the degenerate boy-george suffers from white guilt over the racism including racial hierarchies created by his people of the British empire and other European colonial powers, so not only does he project his guilt on to me, but he also tries to exempt himself by pointing out the various other peoples of the UK, as if racism is not found among those peoples as well!
ROTFLOL Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I have been indirectly informed that French Bio-Anthropologist Alain Froment had presented a communication dealing with such measurements of Egyptian statues, reaching the conclusion that Kemetians could not have been anyhow morphologically similar to most inner at the 1996 Dakar Cheikh Anta Diop colloquium, and that this study had been disregarded by most attendants, who were however largely hardcore Diop followers.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I:
Here are what Hierniaux measured among elongated Africans so called narrow faced Africans: Tutsi of Rwanda:
* Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5
Masai:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0
Galla(Oromo):
* Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0
Sab Somali:
* Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8
Warsingali Somali:
* Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0
posted
Belgians/germans either way it was colonialism that brought the divide in,and no they didnt all refer to themselves as ba this and ba that prior to colonialism the khoisan for istance called themselves zhu twa si [the harmless people] and any everyone else zosi.
Are there really people employed in measuring egyptian statues to find out how non "bantu" they are that's incredible,my god I did'nt know eurocentrists were so hardcore.All that time would be far better spent learning about their germanic and celtic tribal ancestors,I can't find a single book on them in the local bookstore.
-------------------- remember mankind that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: Belgians/germans either way it was colonialism that brought the divide in, and no they didnt all refer to themselves as ba this and ba that prior to colonialism the khoisan for istance called themselves zhu twa si [the harmless people] and any everyone else zosi.
I don't argue with Europeans causing the divide, I merely point out that linguistic terms were not the reason but racial ones. 'Ba' is a common prefix found in the languages of Bantu peoples which simply means 'all' or collective. The whole topic of this thread that you apparently miss is the perpetuation of Eurocentric lies that the Tutsi are not true natives of Rwanda. The author of this thread only continues the Eurocentric lie that the Tutsi originate from the Nile Valley or even Egypt, when that is not the case at all. The Tutsi are a Bantu speaking people who arrived in Rwanda long with other Bantu peoples including their Hutu breathren.
quote:Are there really people employed in measuring egyptian statues to find out how non "bantu" they are that's incredible,my god I did'nt know eurocentrists were so hardcore. All that time would be far better spent learning about their germanic and celtic tribal ancestors,I can't find a single book on them in the local bookstore.
Again "Bantu" is a language. I take it you refer to features the Euros designate as "caucasoid" or "negroid". I don't think they do this anymore-- as in actually measure the features. But you have to understand that it's all in vain because race does NOT exist. So called "caucasoid" features are found among many Africans and "negroid" features found among aboriginal Asians of the tropics etc. Today's Eurocentrics are fighting a lost war.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: ...the khoisan for istance called themselves zhu twa si [the harmless people] and any everyone else zosi.
'Khoisan' are not a single people but are composed of mainly two groups-- The San (bushmen) and the Khoin-Khoin (pastoralists)-- both are their native names.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
yep I offically give up on the concept of race and ethnicity I've seen to many arabs who look hungarian,pacific islanders who look ethiopian,africans who look indian,latinos who look greek,germans who look like yeminis etc.
[/QUOTE]Again "Bantu" is a language. I take it you refer to features the Euros designate as "caucasoid" or "negroid". I don't think they do this anymore-- as in actually measure the features. But you have to understand that it's all in vain because race does NOT exist. So called "caucasoid" features are found among many Africans and "negroid" features found among aboriginal Asians of the tropics etc. Today's Eurocentrics are fighting a lost war. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
yes I know the khoikhoi and the san are seperate but they came together quite recently.
Still you're right its only the san who call themselves zhu twa si,but alot of these groups call themselves twa.Since this is the egypt forum the twa are apparently the infamous pygmies the egyptians worshipped.
-------------------- remember mankind that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Afrosaxon: yep I offically give up on the concept of race and ethnicity I've seen to many arabs who look hungarian, pacific islanders who look ethiopian, africans who look indian, latinos who look greek, germans who look like yeminis etc.
'Race' and ethnicity are two different things. You don't have to give up on the latter since ethnicity, although subjective, is still more solid in terms of its basis of language and culture than race is. 'Race', while relating to ethnicity is totally fake in that it relies solely on phenotypic stereotypes, many aspects of ethnicity and even genetic lineages themselves shatter such stereotypes. So while "negroids" and "caucasoids" don't exist, Germanic Europeans and Bantu Africans do!
quote:yes I know the khoikhoi and the san are seperate but they came together quite recently.
Still you're right its only the san who call themselves zhu twa si, but alot of these groups call themselves twa. Since this is the egypt forum the twa are apparently the infamous pygmies the egyptians worshipped.
The Twa of Rwanda are a different people from the San and they speak Bantu languages not click languages or those spoken by Khoisan. Also, it's still not known for sure if the pygmies the Egyptian expeditioners brought back were Twa or not. I mean it could be, but it's not certain.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
twa translates as "no cattle people" alot of the mini-africans are twa.San do share minor B2b traces with them.
The central twa have elaborate oral histories about egyptians,worshipped bes the pgymy as they did,and ankhs were found in the area what more proof do you need?Besides that letter from some pharoh all panicky abt his prized pygmy.I bet half those egyptian dwarves are pygmies.
anyway off topic - not abt tutsi.
-------------------- remember mankind that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Posts: 70 | From: Australia | Registered: Sep 2008
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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I am just somewhat perturbed by the constant talk of Somalis having 'Arab' ancestry, when ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It's a quick means of reference, and easily understood( simply think of it as a slang word).
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