The egyptian females are pale white because they stayed indoors. This was typical of all Mediterranean culture. Go look at the murals from Knossos. The men are red, and the women white. This is because the men were more sunburnt as they worked outdoors.
Egyptian artwork reveals exactly this -
red or red-brown men but white or sallow-white women
Its IMPOSSIBLE to be a black women with skin as light as found in ancient egyptian art.
This is why the afronuts are now claiming they are only 'symbolic'...
Basically an admission of defeat.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by castratedhide: The Afronuts just don't get it -
No. Euronuts like YOURSELF just don't get it!
quote:The egyptian females are pale white because they stayed indoors. This was typical of all Mediterranean culture. Go look at the murals from Knossos. The men are red, and the women white. This is because the men were more sunburnt as they worked outdoors.
WRONG!
First of all, "Mediterranean" is a sea NOT a culture. The Mediterranean borders Africa, Southwest Asia, as well as Europe!
Secondly, that women stayed indoors was a Victorian era view that was proven wrong by archaeology, historical documents, and the murals themselves! Most women in ancient times couldn't afford to stay indoors as they had responsibilities and chores outdoors like agriculture. Both Egyptian artwork as well as Minoan art show women working outside in outdoor activities.
(sallow) Minoan woman working outside picking saffron
(yellow) Egyptian woman with husband
Exceptions in Minoan art
Exceptions in Egyptian art
^ Notice the lady is darker than her husband.
By the way, Minoan people and culture is partly derived from Africa with the oldest settlements in the island coming from Libya! So your point is moot.
Minoan BLACK woman
I suggest you read more info here. But your Euronut mind will refuse to comprehend it anyway.
quote:Egyptian artwork reveals exactly this -
red or red-brown men but white or sallow-white women
Its IMPOSSIBLE to be a black women with skin as light as found in ancient egyptian art.
Again, women in Egyptian art are NOT painted white or sallow but golden or yellow which was a convention that had exceptions. It was Minoan women who were sallow in color but even Minoan art shows exceptions with women just as dark as men.
quote:This is why the afronuts are now claiming they are only 'symbolic'...
Basically an admission of defeat.
You obviously missed my citation here:
"..Male and female skin colors were probably not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south [closer to sub-saharan Africans] and lighter in the north [closer to Mediterranean Near Easterners] A woman from the south would probably have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus, the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may be even deeper, making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview..." -- Gay Robins (an Egyptologist)
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Retarded is not even a word which fits and describes your mental condition. IT'S WORSE!!!!
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: The Afronuts just don't get it -
The egyptian females are pale white because they stayed indoors. This was typical of all Mediterranean culture. Go look at the murals from Knossos. The men are red, and the women white. This is because the men were more sunburnt as they worked outdoors.
Egyptian artwork reveals exactly this -
red or red-brown men but white or sallow-white women
Its IMPOSSIBLE to be a black women with skin as light as found in ancient egyptian art.
This is why the afronuts are now claiming they are only 'symbolic'...
Basically an admission of defeat.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
Your populair Egyptologist Zahi Hawass stated that the colors are symbolic.
All other other osteological data proves them indigenous AFRICANS FROM THE SOUTH! And you have nothing....
Let's recap / review?
Series The Cambridge Ancient History
Volume 3 Part 3 The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C.
Chapter Title Chapter 36b: The Greeks in Egypt
Publication Date 1982
Author T. F. R. G. Braun Digital Object Identifier (DOI) 10.1017/CHOL9780521234474.003
Overview Greek-Egyptian relations before Psammetichus I
Greeks arrived to settle in Egypt in the reign of Psammetichus I (664–610 B.C.). For the period that follows, Herodotus found that Egyptian and non-Egyptian information could be combined (II. 147). Thanks to Greek settlers mingling with the Egyptians, knowledge was now accurate (II. 154). Significantly, no Greek pottery datable to the period between Mycenaean times and 664 B.C. has so far been found in Egypt. Egyptian trinkets, on the other hand, were reaching the Greek world in the eighth century, and a bronze Egyptian jug at Lefkandi in Euboea would seem to date back as far as the ninth. These could have arrived by way of Phoenicia or Cyprus.
Some contact then, even if indirect, there must have been in the disturbed century before Psammetichus I. The Greeks retained some recollection of the Egyptian history of this time. We have seen how the king of Ethiopia and Egypt, who must have been Shabako (c. 716–c. 702 B.C.) in 711 surrendered Yamani of Ashdod, possibly a Greek (above, p. 16). This ‘Sabakōs’ is an historical figure for Herodotus (II. 137, 139) who in the fifth century could get a fair amount of information about the 25th (Nubian or Kushite) dynasty. Shabako's enemy was the delta king Bakenrenef son of Tefnakhte (c. 720–715 ?), whom he eventually captured and burnt alive. Bakenrenef, as Bocchoris, was to figure in Greek imagination, though Herodotus does not mention him. He is celebrated as a sagacious lawgiver in the Egyptian account of Diodorus (I. 45, 65, 79, 94) which derives from earlier Greek writing – probably in large measure from Hecataeus of Abdera, c. 300 B.C.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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In many African traditions the ritual of dead is symbolically being depicted light/ white. Not dark/ black as is in European context.
The mummy of Hunefer, shown supported by the god Anubis (or a priest wearing a jackal mask). Hunefer's wife and daughter mourn, and three priests perform rituals. The two priests with white sashes are carrying out the Opening of the Mouth ritual. The white building at the right is a representation of the tomb.The ritual involved the symbolic animation of a statue or mummy by magically opening its mouth so that it could breathe and speak. There is evidence of this ritual from the Old Kingdom to the Roman Period. Special tools were used to perform the ceremony, such as a ritual adze, an arm shaped ritual censer, a spooned blade known as a peseshkaf, a serpent-head blade, and a variety of other amulets. A calf's leg was also held up to the lips painted on the coffin. The ancient Egyptians believed that in order for a person's soul to survive in the afterlife it would need to have food and water. A special ritual called the 'Opening of the Mouth' was performed so that the person who died could eat and drink again in the afterlife. The ceremony involved up to 75 "episodes" and, in its most complete version, included the following stages
Above two man and woman are doing an embalming ritutal.
1) The men are colored reddish brown. What does reddish brown symbolize?
2) The woman is colored pinkish beige. What does pinkish beige symbolize?
.
This has been posted before by Ausar and Sundjata
Egyptian Skin Tones - Symbolic & Conventional
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent
[......The choice of the single red-brown color to represent The Egyptian man,rather than a more realistic range of shades ,should also considered within a wider symbolic scheme that included the representations of foreginers. The foreigne men to the north and west of Egypt were depicted by yellow skin[similar to that odf traditional Egyptian women]; men to the south of Egypt were given black skin. Although undoubtedly some Egyptians' skin pigmentation differed little from that of Egypt's neighboors,in the Egyptian worldview foreigners had to be distinguished . Thus Egyptian men had to be marked by a common skin color that contrasted with the images of non- Egyptian men. That the Egyptian women shared their skin color with some foreign men scarcely mattered,since the Egyptian male is primary and formed the reference point in these two color scemes--- contrasting in one with non-Egyptian males and in the other with Egyptian females. Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive meaning elsewhere. This example helps demostrate the importance of context for reading color symbolism.........]
[......Thus,the gender distinctionencoded for human figures was transferred at times to the divie world. The symbolisminherant in the skin colors used for some deities and royal figures sugest that the colors given to human skin---although initiallyseeming to be naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt,with pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-saharan Africans] and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic;the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in the sun than men.Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview............]
The Ancient God Speak by Donald Redford
A Guide to Egyptian Religion
Page 57-61 Color Symbolism
Gay Robins
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Yellow paint? Riiight! We can't you admit that Egypt saw many migrations from the Near East like the Hysksos etc. Many Pahroahs would take Foreign wives etc Some Pharoahs were of Libyan descent. That you feel that you must always rush to the forefront and claim everyone Black, going to whatever ridiculous lengths, claiming women were puting yellow paint on their faces etc, shows that you are not at all an objetive person.
Young Egyptian girl.
Hey ignoramus! The convention for yellow paint among women had NOTHING to do with Asiatics or the immigrations there or! Such a convention has been in place since the beginnings of the Old Kingdom even in the southern part where complexions were darker than in the north.
Here is what one Egyptologist says:
"..Male and female skin colors were probably not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south [closer to sub-saharan Africans] and lighter in the north [closer to Mediterranean Near Easterners] A woman from the south would probably have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus, the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may be even deeper, making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview..."
The belief that women stayed indoors was proven wrong since artwork shows that even poor women who did work outside the home alongside men were still painted yellow, and elite women spent their time outdoors in recreation.
Oh your one cherry-picked image of an (Arab) Egyptian girl cannot do you justice.
Your own quote says that Northern Egyptians were lighter close to Mediterranean people.
Bam! you are shot down. Just like that!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: So now the dead are represented as white?lol....What about Maiherpri? Why isn't he represented as being white in the Book of the Dead?
1). Do you understand what is writen there, or do you go by eyebology?
2). Read the previous post on symbolism (what is the color of flesh.)
3). Thanks for your time.
4). Bye bye.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Yellow paint? Riiight! We can't you admit that Egypt saw many migrations from the Near East like the Hysksos etc. Many Pahroahs would take Foreign wives etc Some Pharoahs were of Libyan descent. That you feel that you must always rush to the forefront and claim everyone Black, going to whatever ridiculous lengths, claiming women were puting yellow paint on their faces etc, shows that you are not at all an objetive person.
Young Egyptian girl.
Hey ignoramus! The convention for yellow paint among women had NOTHING to do with Asiatics or the immigrations there or! Such a convention has been in place since the beginnings of the Old Kingdom even in the southern part where complexions were darker than in the north.
Here is what one Egyptologist says:
"..Male and female skin colors were probably not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south [closer to sub-saharan Africans] and lighter in the north [closer to Mediterranean Near Easterners] A woman from the south would probably have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus, the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may be even deeper, making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview..."
The belief that women stayed indoors was proven wrong since artwork shows that even poor women who did work outside the home alongside men were still painted yellow, and elite women spent their time outdoors in recreation.
Oh your one cherry-picked image of an (Arab) Egyptian girl cannot do you justice.
Your own quote says that Northern Egyptians were lighter close to Mediterranean people.
Bam! you are shot down. Just like that!
But these North Egyptians are never the less African in basal, thou they do have admixture to some extend (specially coastals). Whereas the South Mediterraneans usually aren't African in basal, thou they have admixture to some extend.
And logic tells, that due to the climate of the region people will somewhat have similair physical affinities. Even tough they're fundamentally not the same. Therefore Northern Egyptians can have light skin, without foreign introgression.
SOY Keita explains this somewhere in a journal. (I forgot about the title.)
Unfortunate, my question has remained unanswered. Is she cold-, warm/ tropical adapted or intermediate?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent
^^^^ The above was written by Wally of Egyptsearch and it has errors
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: In many African traditions the ritual of dead is symbolically being depicted light/ white. Not dark/ black as is in European context.
In many places in Africa what you said is incorrect:
In the above painting the men and the woman wear standard white colored garments. This does not symbolize death. The color associated with the Egyptian underworld, the dead and night was black and Osiris is sometimes depicted as jet black (or sometimes dark green ) Sometimes kings, such as the guardian figures of Tutankhamun in his tomb are depicted jet black. This is because kings are sometimes depicted as personifying Osiris in the burial chambers. The black and green color used to depict Osiris are used because greeen is the color of rebirth and black refers to the fertility of the Nile floodplain.
Anubis the jackal-headed god in the above painting associated with mummification and the afterlife in ancient Egyptian religion. The distinctive black color of Anubis' head did not have to do with the jackal [per se] but with the color of rotting flesh and with the black soil of the Nile valley, symbolizing the fertility of the Nile.
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent
^^^^ The above was written by Wally of Egyptsearch and it has errors
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
In many African traditions the ritual of dead is symbolically being depicted light/ white. Not dark/ black as is in European context.
in many places in Africa what you said is incorrect:
I said/ wrote in many African traditions. That is what I wrote/ said. And I would not call the post by "Wally" errors. Rather a form of interpretation. Both of the interpretations intermingle quite well.
African peoples often symbolize death by the colour white rather than black; at the same time, many African cultures see white as the colour that links them to their ancestors, and it can therefore have a positive meaning.Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I said/ wrote in many African traditions. That is what I wrote/ said. And I would not call the post by "Wally" errors. Rather a form of interpretation. Both of the interpretations intermingle quite well.
African peoples often symbolize death by the colour white rather than black; at the same time, many African cultures see white as the colour that links them to their ancestors, and it can therefore have a positive meaning.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:African peoples often symbolize death by the colour white rather than black; at the same time, many African cultures see white as the colour that links them to their ancestors, and it can therefore have a positive meaning.
It's misleading, when black is used more frequently in African funerery traditions
posted
Also, in many African traditions white clothes is worn at funerals. Describing different symbolic conditions.
I am shocked, really.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I said/ wrote in many African traditions. That is what I wrote/ said. And I would not call the post by "Wally" errors. Rather a form of interpretation. Both of the interpretations intermingle quite well.
African peoples often symbolize death by the colour white rather than black; at the same time, many African cultures see white as the colour that links them to their ancestors, and it can therefore have a positive meaning.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:African peoples often symbolize death by the colour white rather than black; at the same time, many African cultures see white as the colour that links them to their ancestors, and it can therefore have a positive meaning.
It's misleading, when black is used more frequently in African funerery traditions
It's nothing to worry about, most African people are brown
It's misleading to interpret incorrect.
Colour has symbolic meaning in African culture and each colour conveys peculiar information when won or displaced at significant places or situations.
*The black colour is a symbolic colour for funerals in almost all parts of Africa. It is the official mourning cloth at funerals especially the one that involves a person who died at unripe age-not the death of an old member.
*The white colour is a symbol of purity and joy, which usually won at funerals especially the type that involves a dead old member.
The semantics of dead in African traditions? Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
But these North Egyptians are never the less African in basal, thou they do have admixture to some extend (specially coastals). Whereas the South Mediterraneans usually aren't African in basal, thou they have admixture to some extend.
And logic tells, that due to the climate of the region people will somewhat have similair physical affinities. Even tough they're fundamentally not the same. Therefore Northern Egyptians can have light skin, without foreign introgression.
E haplotypes extend from East Africa all the way into West Asia and the Balkans. Therefore the North Egyptians are not so genetically distinct from others. And there were undoubtedly migrations from the Middle East during the neolithic and before. What do people think. There was a wall separating Egypt from the rest of the world!!
And how the fcuk can Dejhuti know for sure the Egyptian girl I posted is of Arab origin? Oh wait, if she doesn't look Black tyen she can't be a real Egyptian. GTFOH!
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Your own quote says that Northern Egyptians were lighter close to Mediterranean people.
Bam! you are shot down. Just like that!
LOL
Yes lighter and stated closer to Mediterranean Near Easterns NOT the same as them, retard!
The same way these San women of Southern Africa are closer to Near Easterners in complexion than most Bantu peoples.
I again notice you left out the Near Easterners part and just said Mediterranean people. Again the Mediterranean borders Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia so I don't see how there could be one 'Mediterranean' people. The northern Egyptians while being 'Mediterranean' were Africans and thus closely related to other Africans including Sub-Saharans. You even have the bad habit of stereotyping Sub-Saharans into a certain look when the picture above of Khoisan people dispells your belief.
Again, your problem is that you rely too much on your whimsical belief and NOT facts!
quote:E haplotypes extend from East Africa all the way into West Asia and the Balkans. Therefore the North Egyptians are not so genetically distinct from others. And there were undoubtedly migrations from the Middle East during the neolithic and before. What do people think. There was a wall separating Egypt from the rest of the world!!
Of course there was no separation hence the migrations. It should occur to you as well that there were migrations from Europe and Southwest Asia especially in historical times that altered the gene pool let alone phenotype of the people.
quote:And how the fcuk can Dejhuti know for sure the Egyptian girl I posted is of Arab origin? Oh wait, if she doesn't look Black then she can't be a real Egyptian. GTFOH!
Even Egyptians like Ausar will tell you that many Egyptians today have foreign ancestry from Arab, Persian, Assyrian, Greek, Turkish, you name it. Now I'm not saying that the little girl in your selective pic has no native ancestry since she looks no different from most mixed kids of African descent here in America, but to say she is pristine is laughable just like your light-skinned Berber representing the original Berbers! Only idiots like yourself are in denial that black types like the ones I posted from rural southern Egypt that had little geneflow from outside represent the authentic Egyptian.
Now answer me this simple question. Who is closer to King Tut here in complexion?
quote:Originally posted by Simpleton: So now the dead are represented as white?lol....What about Maiherpri? Why isn't he represented as being white in the Book of the Dead?
The recently deceased were depicted white yes. The Book of the Dead portrays the resurrected in the here-after so no that does not count simple-brain. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes lighter and stated closer to Mediterranean Near Easterns NOT the same as them, retard!
The same way these San women of Southern Africa are closer to Near Easterners in complexion than most Bantu peoples.
I again notice you left out the Near Easterners part and just said Mediterranean people. Again the Mediterranean borders Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia so I don't see how there could be one 'Mediterranean' people. The northern Egyptians while being 'Mediterranean' were Africans and thus closely related to other Africans including Sub-Saharans. You even have the bad habit of stereotyping Sub-Saharans into a certain look when the picture above of Khoisan people dispells your belief.
You are simply delusional. Egyptians varied in phenotype with a North/South gradient. I'm sure people in the North could look like Near Easterners. Why couldn't they? Becuase you don't like the idea? Egypt was not all Black but mixed. I don't know whether that girl is pristine or not but she has a similar complexion to the picture in the OP. I am sure there were many like her. You idiots claim you are taking back your history from the lying White man or whatver, but you are not at all objective and your attitude about Egypt is nazi like and unrealistic. And I don't think the lighter women were symbolic either since in real life Women ARE lighter than the men within their ethnicity. While this tendency may have been become a tradition in their art work, it should by no means be ruled out as not being at all reflective of Egyptian phenotypes.
Look at the woman on the right, does she look like she is wearing paint dumbass?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Yes lighter and stated closer to Mediterranean Near Easterns NOT the same as them, retard!
The same way these San women of Southern Africa are closer to Near Easterners in complexion than most Bantu peoples.
I again notice you left out the Near Easterners part and just said Mediterranean people. Again the Mediterranean borders Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia so I don't see how there could be one 'Mediterranean' people. The northern Egyptians while being 'Mediterranean' were Africans and thus closely related to other Africans including Sub-Saharans. You even have the bad habit of stereotyping Sub-Saharans into a certain look when the picture above of Khoisan people dispells your belief.
You are simply delusional. Egyptians varied in phenotype with a North/South gradient. I'm sure people in the North could look like Near Easterners. Why couldn't they? Becuase you don't like the idea? Egypt was not all Black but mixed. I don't know whether that girl is pristine or not but she has a similar complexion to the picture in the OP. I am sure there were many like her. You idiots claim you are taking back your history from the lying White man or whatver, but you are not at all objective and your attitude about Egypt is nazi like and unrealistic. And I don't think the lighter women were symbolic either since in real life Women ARE lighter than the men within their ethnicity. While this tendency may have been become a tradition in their art work, it should by no means be ruled out as not being at all reflective of Egyptian phenotypes.
Look at the woman on the right, does she look like she is wearing paint dumbass?
Kim Jackson,
What part of ancient Egyptians were TROPICAL ADAPTED you don't understand?
It became mixed much later, when the civilization was basically at it's end.
The people you keep ranting about are cold adapted.
SMH, hilarious. As if people in Africa couldn't have developed lighter skin. Yet across the sea, in europe they could. LOL
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But these North Egyptians are never the less African in basal, thou they do have admixture to some extend (specially coastals). Whereas the South Mediterraneans usually aren't African in basal, thou they have admixture to some extend.
And logic tells, that due to the climate of the region people will somewhat have similair physical affinities. Even tough they're fundamentally not the same. Therefore Northern Egyptians can have light skin, without foreign introgression.
E haplotypes extend from East Africa all the way into West Asia and the Balkans. Therefore the North Egyptians are not so genetically distinct from others. And there were undoubtedly migrations from the Middle East during the neolithic and before. What do people think. There was a wall separating Egypt from the rest of the world!!
And how the fcuk can Dejhuti know for sure the Egyptian girl I posted is of Arab origin? Oh wait, if she doesn't look Black tyen she can't be a real Egyptian. GTFOH!
Look dimwitted melanophobic alias chancing idiot, we have shown an abundance of SCIENCE from different disciplines!!!!
North Egyptians are in their basal genetically AFRICAN and the ancients were for sure tropical adapted. Your middle eastenerns and euros are old adapted.
YOU CAN'T RESPOND COHERENTLY TO THE QUESTIONS ADDRESSED.
GTFOH BITCHBOY!
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But these North Egyptians are never the less African in basal, thou they do have admixture to some extend (specially coastals). Whereas the South Mediterraneans usually aren't African in basal, thou they have admixture to some extend.
And logic tells, that due to the climate of the region people will somewhat have similair physical affinities. Even tough they're fundamentally not the same. Therefore Northern Egyptians can have light skin, without foreign introgression.
E haplotypes extend from East Africa all the way into West Asia and the Balkans. Therefore the North Egyptians are not so genetically distinct from others. And there were undoubtedly migrations from the Middle East during the neolithic and before. What do people think. There was a wall separating Egypt from the rest of the world!!
And how the fcuk can Dejhuti know for sure the Egyptian girl I posted is of Arab origin? Oh wait, if she doesn't look Black tyen she can't be a real Egyptian. GTFOH!
Look dimwitted melanophobic alias chancing idiot, we have shown an abundance of SCIENCE from different disciplines!!!!
North Egyptians are in their basal genetically AFRICAN and the ancients were for sure tropical adapted. Your middle eastenerns and euros are old adapted.
YOU CAN'T RESPOND COHERENTLY TO THE QUESTIONS ADDRESSED.
GTFOH BITCHBOY!
Go get a map and find where Egypt is located..right nrxt to Palestine and Arabia. Egypt saw back migrations you brainless imbecil. That why we find haplogroups like J, R and T. Egypt's climate is not conducive to people developing light skin,wavy hair, striaght noses etc. That is likely the result of mixture. Ramses II was shown to be have been a light complexioned man with red hair and Eurasian features. Deal with it.
I can't tell who is stupider, you or Yohooti..but I think he comes up with this ish first, and you just parrot him. Impressive!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ Hey moron! Those back-migrations you speak of largely took place during Medieval to Modern times!! Hence, the vast majority of the haplogroups you listed are dated to Arab Islamic invasion and the Ottoman empire!
The map above comes from a 2004 study by Luis and Underhill et. ales called 'The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations'. In the study they specify those very haplogroups you listed as deriving from Islamic invasions to the Turkish Empire. As far as ancient expansions go, it was FROM Africa (Egypt) TO Eurasia via the E3b (E1b1b). Note that E1b1b in 'Arab' Egyptians is still prominent as a basal lineage. As you put it Egypt is right next to Palestine and Arabia, yet you always emphasize Asian migrations into Africa but never the converse, even though the former only took place after the pharaonic period!
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: You are simply delusional. Egyptians varied in phenotype with a North/South gradient. I'm sure people in the North could look like Near Easterners. Why couldn't they? Because you don't like the idea? Egypt was not all Black but mixed. I don't know whether that girl is pristine or not but she has a similar complexion to the picture in the OP. I am sure there were many like her. You idiots claim you are taking back your history from the lying White man or whatever, but you are not at all objective and your attitude about Egypt is nazi like and unrealistic.
Of course there was phenotypic variation with a north-south gradient. ALL indigenous populations in many countries or regions display such variation! Northern Italians differ somewhat from their southern kin, southern Chinese differ from northerners. The same is true with African countries even in Sub-Sahara. You are the one delusional if you think such a difference meant the northerners looked Asiatic! LOL In fact, mainstream Egyptology has debunked the notion that ancient Delta Egyptians were of Asiatic descent. Why even the author I cited about the depiction of women in ancient Egyptian art, Gay Robins, was involved in skeletal studies that clearly showed *all* Egyptians including northern Delta folk to have closer affinities with Sub-Saharans than with Asiatics! You say that Egypt is mixed. This is very much true with MODERN Egypt but not ancient Egypt!
Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans. Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation
By the way, I noticed you never answered my question about which modern Egyptian best approaches Tut in color. I'm not surprised.
quote:And I don't think the lighter women were symbolic either since in real life Women ARE lighter than the men within their ethnicity. While this tendency may have been become a tradition in their art work, it should by no means be ruled out as not being at all reflective of Egyptian phenotypes.
LOL Again, who cares what you think?! Of course biologically men produce more melanin than women, the difference is very slight. Unless you think a homogenous population can produce men with chocolate dark complexions and women with yellowish ones. Again, that the yellow convention with women was symbolic is something supported by all Egyptologists from Gay Robins to Zahi Hawass.
quote:Look at the woman on the right, does she look like she is wearing paint dumbass?
What?! The entire scene is a painting!! LOL
Damn. I don't know who is more retarded YOU or Lyinass?? Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But these North Egyptians are never the less African in basal, thou they do have admixture to some extend (specially coastals). Whereas the South Mediterraneans usually aren't African in basal, thou they have admixture to some extend.
And logic tells, that due to the climate of the region people will somewhat have similair physical affinities. Even tough they're fundamentally not the same. Therefore Northern Egyptians can have light skin, without foreign introgression.
E haplotypes extend from East Africa all the way into West Asia and the Balkans. Therefore the North Egyptians are not so genetically distinct from others. And there were undoubtedly migrations from the Middle East during the neolithic and before. What do people think. There was a wall separating Egypt from the rest of the world!!
And how the fcuk can Dejhuti know for sure the Egyptian girl I posted is of Arab origin? Oh wait, if she doesn't look Black tyen she can't be a real Egyptian. GTFOH!
Look dimwitted melanophobic alias chancing idiot, we have shown an abundance of SCIENCE from different disciplines!!!!
North Egyptians are in their basal genetically AFRICAN and the ancients were for sure tropical adapted. Your middle eastenerns and euros are old adapted.
YOU CAN'T RESPOND COHERENTLY TO THE QUESTIONS ADDRESSED.
GTFOH BITCHBOY!
Go get a map and find where Egypt is located..right nrxt to Palestine and Arabia. Egypt saw back migrations you brainless imbecil. That why we find haplogroups like J, R and T. Egypt's climate is not conducive to people developing light skin,wavy hair, striaght noses etc. That is likely the result of mixture. Ramses II was shown to be have been a light complexioned man with red hair and Eurasian features. Deal with it.
I can't tell who is stupider, you or Yohooti..but I think he comes up with this ish first, and you just parrot him. Impressive!
Well retarded melanophobe, tell us what the climate is like in Egypts, Northeast Africa? (ancient Kemet)
If you consult a map you will find out that Egypt/ Sudan, is almost larger than the entire Europe. Yet, in tiny Europe you already will find (relatively) different, yet homogenous climates, correlating with (relatively) different phenotypes, yet homogenous.
Let's have fun here.
What was the age of Ramses II when he passed away?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Hey moron! Those back-migrations you speak of largely took place during Medieval to Modern times!! Hence, the vast majority of the haplogroups you listed are dated to Arab Islamic invasion and the Ottoman empire!
The map above comes from a 2004 study by Luis and Underhill et. ales called 'The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations'. In the study they specify those very haplogroups you listed as deriving from Islamic invasions to the Turkish Empire. As far as ancient expansions go, it was FROM Africa (Egypt) TO Eurasia via the E3b (E1b1b). Note that E1b1b in 'Arab' Egyptians is still prominent as a basal lineage. As you put it Egypt is right next to Palestine and Arabia, yet you always emphasize Asian migrations into Africa but never the converse, even though the former only took place after the pharaonic period!
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: You are simply delusional. Egyptians varied in phenotype with a North/South gradient. I'm sure people in the North could look like Near Easterners. Why couldn't they? Because you don't like the idea? Egypt was not all Black but mixed. I don't know whether that girl is pristine or not but she has a similar complexion to the picture in the OP. I am sure there were many like her. You idiots claim you are taking back your history from the lying White man or whatever, but you are not at all objective and your attitude about Egypt is nazi like and unrealistic.
Of course there was phenotypic variation with a north-south gradient. ALL indigenous populations in many countries or regions display such variation! Northern Italians differ somewhat from their southern kin, southern Chinese differ from northerners. The same is true with African countries even in Sub-Sahara. You are the one delusional if you think such a difference meant the northerners looked Asiatic! LOL In fact, mainstream Egyptology has debunked the notion that ancient Delta Egyptians were of Asiatic descent. Why even the author I cited about the depiction of women in ancient Egyptian art, Gay Robins, was involved in skeletal studies that clearly showed *all* Egyptians including northern Delta folk to have closer affinities with Sub-Saharans than with Asiatics! You say that Egypt is mixed. This is very much true with MODERN Egypt but not ancient Egypt!
Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans. Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation
By the way, I noticed you never answered my question about which modern Egyptian best approaches Tut in color. I'm not surprised.
quote:And I don't think the lighter women were symbolic either since in real life Women ARE lighter than the men within their ethnicity. While this tendency may have been become a tradition in their art work, it should by no means be ruled out as not being at all reflective of Egyptian phenotypes.
LOL Again, who cares what you think?! Of course biologically men produce more melanin than women, the difference is very slight. Unless you think a homogenous population can produce men with chocolate dark complexions and women with yellowish ones. Again, that the yellow convention with women was symbolic is something supported by all Egyptologists from Gay Robins to Zahi Hawass.
quote:Look at the woman on the right, does she look like she is wearing paint dumbass?
What?! The entire scene is a painting!! LOL
Damn. I don't know who is more retarded YOU or Lyinass??
posted
Well retarded melanophobe, tell us what the climate is like in Egypts, Northeast Africa?
If you consult a map you will find out that Egypt/ Sudan, is larger than the entire Europe. Yet, in tiny Europe you already will find (relatively) different climates correlating with (relatively) different phenotypes.
Let's have fun here.
You're right. I forgot that the Egyptians invented ice skating from the Nile freezing over in the winters near Cairo. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Well retarded melanophobe, tell us what the climate is like in Egypts, Northeast Africa?
If you consult a map you will find out that Egypt/ Sudan, is larger than the entire Europe. Yet, in tiny Europe you already will finHd (relatively) different climates correlating with (relatively) different phenotypes.
Let's have fun here.
You're right. I forgot that the Egyptians invented ice skating from the Nile freezing over in the winters near Cairo.
As in my opening statement from the previous post. At this alias changing assumptions retarded melanophobe booboo-clown.
Word is born, retarded response by a real retard. When "itself" stated Mediterranean at first, and now quickly shifts to Eurasia.
He can't answer, it simple can't. At this moment "it's" googling for the specific information. In hopes of, making a "rough" comeback.
Neither was ice skating invented in central or far Asia. Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You're right. I forgot that the Egyptians invented ice skating from the Nile freezing over in the winters near Cairo.
THE ICING ON THE CAKE!
As we can all see the "Eurasian' component ('light blue') is insignifigant in Ethiopians/Northeast Africans. So you can reburry that "admixture" theory in the same patch that you dug it up from!
Louisvilleslugger
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Hey moron! Those back-migrations you speak of largely took place during Medieval to Modern times!! Hence, the vast majority of the haplogroups you listed are dated to Arab Islamic invasion and the Ottoman empire!
Lol Sho ya right!
"The earliest known back migration of R1b was from Asia to Africa and took place around 15,000 years ago. A group of R1b1* people moving from the Levant to Egypt, Sudan and spreading in different directions inside Africa to Rwanda, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Congo, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Guinea-Bissau. The hotspot is Cameroon. R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. It is in all likelihood where the early R1b people first settled, then spread south and east along the coast."
"The cooler climate and over-exploitation of resources led to the failure of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic in the Levant. Some Near Eastern farmers crossed Sinai into North Africa around 6,000 BC, taking sheep, goats, wheat and barley with them. That agro-pastoralist dispersal has been linked to subclades of the Y haplogroups E1b and R1b." s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/3081519/1/
"Sergio Tofanelli and colleagues have investigated the modern-day distribution of Y haplogroup J1 (M267) across North Africa as well as the Middle East. They reject the idea that this can be explained simply by the spread of Islam. They find that coalescence times for lineages point to the more distant past: the period between 5,500 and 7,200 BP (3,500-5,200 BC)"
Of course there was phenotypic variation with a north-south gradient. ALL indigenous populations in many countries or regions display such variation! Northern Italians differ somewhat from their southern kin, southern Chinese differ from northerners. The same is true with African countries even in Sub-Sahara. You are the one delusional if you think such a difference meant the northerners looked Asiatic! LOL In fact, mainstream Egyptology has debunked the notion that ancient Delta Egyptians were of Asiatic descent. Why even the author I cited about the depiction of women in ancient Egyptian art, Gay Robins, was involved in skeletal studies that clearly showed *all* Egyptians including northern Delta folk to have closer affinities with Sub-Saharans than with Asiatics! You say that Egypt is mixed. This is very much true with MODERN Egypt but not ancient Egypt!
That ain't really true. There is a politically correct trend to ignore Asiatics influences in Egypt..
"It was immediately clear to the excavators that the Merimdens were radically different from the peoples of Upper Egypt in every respect - physically, culturally, and technologically. Their burial customs were similar to those of the southwestern, Semitic-type Asians, and strikingly different from those of all the Africans. Whereas the African tradition was to bury the dead with a variety of earthly goods to sustain them in the afterlife, and with amulets to protect them from malevolent spirits, the graves of the Merimdens contained no grave offerings of any kind.
Throughout the village clusters of baskets or jars serving as granaries were buried up to their necks in the ground, Circular, clay-lined threshing floors also seemed to be associated with individual dwellings. The Merimdens clearly lived in more or less economically independent single family units, the foundation of the same type of patriarchal system being formed at the time in the Semitic cultures of southwestern Asia. They contrasted sharply with the autarchic systems being generated in Upper Egypt.
[Merimbe] shows none of the distinctively Egyptian characteristics... In its general aspects, Merimde seems more like a village of sturdy yeoman farmers than a collection of peasants subject to the whims, avarice, and authority of a powerful man or a government, although some cooperative efforts (if not collectivization of food-producing tasks) are recalled by the threshing floors up to 13 feet in diameter.2
During the Naqada period the Asiatic communities of Lower Egypt began to spread upstream (southward). Several groups of farming communities were established just below modern Cairo. In 1924 a young Egyptian mineralogist, Amin el Omari, discovered the ruins of such a community in the periphery of his home town, Helwan, about twenty-three kilometers south of Cairo. Tragically, the youthful scientist died shortly thereafter. The town, and other such villages found in the region thereafter were named after him - Omari A, B, and C, as was the culture they represented...
The Omari villages were urbanized centers into which was introduced an impressive array of Asian agricultural products such as sycamore dates and figs, domesticated wild sugar, emmer wheat, and an evolved type of barley. The domesticated Omari animals, like those of Fayoum A and Merimde, were Mesopotamian varieties of pigs, goats, and cows. The bones of such animals were found in abundance, along with an assortment of the bones of wild animals, birds and fish of Lower Egypt. The separate housing and facilities of the villagers, each of which was self-contained, reflect the egalitarian character of Omari life. The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition." http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp010-1_egypt.htm
LOL Again, who cares what you think?! Of course biologically men produce more melanin than women, the difference is very slight. Unless you think a homogenous population can produce men with chocolate dark complexions and women with yellowish ones.
Generally the men spend more time outdoors in the elements. That is the real reason. Dummy. The daker coloring of the Egyptian men is really due to ..tanning. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
As in my opening statement from the previous post. At this alias changing assumptions retarded melanophobe booboo-clown.
Word is born, retarded response by a real retard. When "itself" stated Mediterranean at first, and now quickly shifts to Eurasia.
He can't answer, it simple can't. At this moment "it's" googling for the specific information. In hopes of, making a "rough" comeback.
Neither was ice skating invented in central or far Asia.
You have no well thought out arguments or salient points. All you have is insipid babble.
Why don't you go and watch some TV? I'm sure they must have cartoons on somewhere.. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: As in my opening statement from the previous post. At this alias changing assumptions retarded melanophobe booboo-clown.
Word is born, retarded response by a real retard. When "itself" stated Mediterranean at first, and now quickly shifts to Eurasia.
He can't answer, it simple can't. At this moment "it's" googling for the specific information. In hopes of, making a "rough" comeback.
Neither was ice skating invented in central or far Asia.
You have no well thought out arguments or salient points. All you have is insipid babble.
Why don't you go and watch some TV? I'm sure they must have cartoons on somewhere..
Thus far still no answer or explanation. Just the same old distractions and distortions.
Therefor, again the question is send out into the parameter.
What is mandated for certain traits, we speak of, to appear. What is required? Alias clown!
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Generally the men spend more time outdoors in the elements. That is the real reason. Dummy. The daker coloring of the Egyptian men is really due to ..tanning.
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)...... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of negroid origin."
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)...... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of negroid origin."
*as we can all see the "Eurasian' component ('light blue') is insignifigant in Ethiopians/Northeast Africans. So you can reburry that "admixture" theory in the same patch that you dug it up from!
An examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
K. Goddea, b, Corresponding Author Contact Information
a Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee
b Department of Science, South College
Abstract
Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D2 with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated.
Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 (1952) 469–514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 (1958) 79–123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 (1986) 313–324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 (2006) 374–384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9–4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains.
"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks... brachial indices are definitely more ‘African’. ... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formula may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." (" Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature ."
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)...... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of negroid origin."
Upper Egypt is down in the South near Sudan. They was mosly Black.. Dontcha know nuthin??
And what is this question you keep sayin I'm avioding?
Thus far still no answer or explanation. Just the same old distractions and distortions.
Therefor, again the question is send out into the parameter.
What is mandated for certain traits, we speak of, to appear. What is required? Delusional many alias clown!
Ramses II his tomb and major temple is at NUBIA, Wadi Kubbaniya/ Wadi Halfa. I've put up images of his parents. Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
What is mandated for certain traits, we speak of, to appear. What is required? Alias clown!
Autosomal DNA.
Now Begone!
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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*as we can all see the "Eurasian' component ('light blue') is insignifigant in Ethiopians/Northeast Africans. So you can reburry that "admixture" theory in the same patch that you dug it up from!
Problem with you is, you keep distracting and distorting the question as much as possible, in hopes the focus will get lost on the og-question. You are a bad (worse) actor with many alias.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What is mandated for certain traits, we speak of, to appear. What is required? Alias clown!
Autosomal DNA.
Now Begone!
As we can see here, he/ it/ she can't answer the question properly and intelligently.
So he/ it/ she starts to distort, with a cartoon.
What kind of environmental and climactical conditions are needed for certain appearances like light skin, thin hair, a thin nose. That is the question.
Secondly, what is the environment and climactical condition like in Egypt. Northeast Africa.
Was all this environment and climactic adaption before or after the autosomal?
tictoc....tic toc...
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Problem with you is, you keep distracting and distorting the question as much as possible, in hopes the focus will get lost on the og-question. You are a bad (worse) actor with many alias.
So he/ it/ she starts to distort, with a cartoon.
What kind of environmental and climactical conditions are needed for certain appearances like light skin, thin hair, a thin nose. That is the question.
Secondly, what is the environment and climactical condition like in Egypt. Northeast Africa.
Was all this environment and climactic adaption before or after the autosomal?
tictoc....tic toc... [/QB]
Excellent job Patrol. The environmental and climatic data show the fundamental peopling of ancient Egypt, until the tail end of Egyptian civ with the advent of Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc was by tropical peoples, specifically indigenous tropical African peoples. We all know foreigners have always moved back and forth across borders into Egypt, but the fundamental population retained its tropical heritage until the later period. Indeed, part of Egypt itself falls within the tropical zone.
No amount of bogus "biodiversity" distortion and lies can change this reality.
And socalled "back migrations" do little to change the facts either, because said "back migrations" were by people already looking like tropical Africans. Tropical peoples from Africa who walked a few hundred miles into the Sinai or into Arabia and came back sometime later do not automatically become "Asian." And in fact modern studies show that there was genetic variation INSIDE Africa already in place before outward movements, and CONTINUOUS movement from Africa outward in several ancient eras, defeating the bogus "biodiversity" attempts to pigeonhole Africans with some sort of neat apartheid-like "racial split." {QUOTE}
quote:`"population divergence times in sub-Saharan Africa predate the emergence of modern humans outside Africa, raising the possibility that modern humans dispersed from a structured African population. Populations split times were similar to previous estimates in Africa, ranging from 17-142 thousand years ago (KYR). The Khosian exhibited the oldest population split times (range, 102-142 KYR) and Niger-Congo speakers the most recent (range, 17-84 KYR)... "
--Maya Metni Pilkington (2008). An apportionment of African genetic diversity based on mitochondrial, Y chromosomal, and X chromosomal data. PH.d Dissertation (published). University of Arizona, pg 1-9.
"The historical linguistic data reported earlier would apply in the case of maternal lineages as well.. it is not likely that the "northern" genetic profile is simply due to "Eurasians" having colonized supra-Saharan regions from external African sources. It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin. As a term "Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it suggests a single locale of geographical origins. This is because it can be postulated that differentiation of the L3* haplogroup began before the emigration out of Africa, and that there would be indigenous supra-Saharan/Saharan or Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More work and careful analysis of mtDNA and the archeological data and likely probabilities is needed. Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion." --Keita, A, Boyce, A. (2005) Genetics, Egypt, and History... History in Africa, 32, 221-246
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
As we can see here, he/ it/ she can't answer the question properly and intelligently.
You can't present a question correctly within a meaningful context.
So he/ it/ she starts to distort, with a cartoon.
It seemed so fitting for someone like you.
What kind of environmental and climactical conditions are needed for certain appearances like light skin, thin hair, a thin nose. That is the question.
Temperate to cold climates.
Secondly, what is the environment and climactical condition like in Egypt. Northeast Africa.
Hot and arid
Was all this environment and climactic adaption before or after the autosomal
that question makes no sense
And don't listen to zarahan. There variation in homo sapiens early on, as some mixed with neanderthal. There were skulls found in Israel which had already had semi Eurasian features from over 70,000 yeras ago.
Does he think the hyksos were Blacks lol.
Also ask him if all these people in West Asia were tropically adapted Blacks, How and when did the current Eurasian/Arab phenotype take hold there? What historical migration or events can he cite which might explain things? Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: As we can see here, he/ it/ she can't answer the question properly and intelligently.
Secondly, what is the environment and climactical condition like in Egypt. Northeast Africa.
Hot and arid
Was all this environment and climactic adaption before or after the autosomal
that question makes no sense
Yup, and here is where you fail.
If you say so.. But if you don't mind, It's time for me to start enjoying my weekend.
Cheers!
Yes I know what I speak of, so do I say. So do others who show the actual data.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Excellent job Patrol. The environmental and climatic
Indeed, part of Egypt itself falls within the tropical zone
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
And don't listen to zarahan. There variation in homo sapiens early on, as some mixed with neanderthal. There were skulls found in Israel which had already had semi Eurasian features from over 70,000 yeras ago.
Also ask him if all these people in West Asia were tropically adapted Blacks, How and when did the current Eurasian/Arab phenotype take hold there? What historical migration or events can he cite which might explain things?
Lastly, you aren't the one who is going to tell me what I should ask, to who.
And again your insertion on crania data made no sense. But I think this is what he is referring to, are at least something like this. When speaking of WestAsia.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory. --Moorjani et al.
"Clade E lineages were more frequent in the Greeks (21%) as compared to Pakistan (4%). The majority of haplogroup E chromosomes belonged to clade E3b and all Greek and Pakistani samples were resolved into the branches E3b1 (M78) and E3b3 (M123). Among the three Pakistani populations claiming Greek descent, this clade was observed only in the Pathans. The Pathan samples belonged to clade E3b1 that constituted 17% of the Greek samples.--Sadaf Firasat et al.
And multiple streams of migrations of Hg E-78* have moved into Arabian Peninsula and South West Asia. This is how the Afroasiatic phylum spread into the Arabian Peninsula to West Asia.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Also ask him if all these people in West Asia were tropically adapted Blacks, How and when did the current Eurasian/Arab phenotype take hold there? What historical migration or events can he cite which might explain things?
^^The studies cited do not say when any so-called "Eurasian/Arab phenotype" took hold in West Asia. They simply correctly note that tropical phenotypes are represented. If you have any questions take them up with the aforementioned scholars, already fully cited. In any event it is common knowledge that migrations of Indo-European speakers to join with in situ populations have been ongoing into the West Asia for centuries. Pick whatever migration date suits you. See - The Oxford Companion to Archaeology - Edited by Brian M. Fagan, Oxford University Press, 1996. 275-362
moorjani 2011- African gene flow into Eurasia-West Asia longstanding for thousands of years
QUOTE: "Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas...
To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12). We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation, which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15). Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
In summary, we have documented a contribution of sub-Saharan African genetic material to many West Eurasian populations in the last few thousand years. A priority for future work should be to identify the source populations for this admixture. "
-- Moorjani P, et al. (2011) The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews. PLoS Genet 7(4): e1001373.
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^^GOod ref patrol, showing that West Asia has always had tropical African types for thousands of years. The researchers show this result even though the sampling data is skewed in part, towards Nigerians as sub-Saharan "representatives". East Africa, including Ethiopia and SOmalia is itself located below the Sahara desert and they are thus "sub Saharan" - a fact assorted "biodiversity" claimants conveniently miss.
In any event, said tropical types were in place in various eras, or contributing gene flow via movement across and within those eras. Indeed the OOA exit would have involved the Africans moving out into the "Middle East", and Asia. It is thus no surprise to see such phenotypes represented in West Asia, defeating desperate, and bogus "biodiversity" fantasies of "white backflow" as explanations for the fundamental diversity of African peoples. Chancellor Williams is outdated as a source, but he had some insights into the diversity of African peoples, and the fact that they are well represented in West Asia depending on the era and locale, and were not static entities huddled behind some artifical "sub-Saharan" apartheid line, as the racist scholars he fought against in his time claimed.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Also ask him if all these people in West Asia were tropically adapted Blacks, How and when did the current Eurasian/Arab phenotype take hold there? What historical migration or events can he cite which might explain things?
^^The studies cited do not say when any so-called "Eurasian/Arab phenotype" took hold in West Asia. They simply correctly note that tropical phenotypes are represented. If you have any questions take them up with the aforementioned scholars, already fully cited. In any event it is common knowledge that migrations of Indo-European speakers to join with in situ populations have been ongoing into the West Asia for centuries. Pick whatever migration date suits you. See - The Oxford Companion to Archaeology - Edited by Brian M. Fagan, Oxford University Press, 1996. 275-362
Yes, the source by Chancellor Williams is somewhat outdated. But, it did its job during those days.
And gives good insight and explanation on migrations from Africa into the Levant, and West Asia.
A second/ new edition would do good.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The studies cited do not say when any so-called "Eurasian/Arab phenotype" took hold in West Asia. They simply correctly note that tropical phenotypesare represented. If you have any questions take them up with the aforementioned scholars, already fully cited. In any event it is common knowledge that migrations of Indo-European speakers to join with in situ populations have been ongoing into the West Asia for centuries. Pick whatever migration date suits you.
Ha! Tis as I thought. Your knowledge of the Middle East is laugahbale. First of all the Cuacasian phenotype is not unique to Indo-Europeans and there have been no significant movements of Indo Europeans reaching down into southern mesopotamia or the Arabian peninsula. The closest I can think of were the Cimmerians. Admit it, you haven't a clue how they changed. And to leave you even more perplexed, here is a photo of the former Arabian ambassador Turki al Faisal.
Oh and here is Saudi Princess Dalal Al Saud.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^ Hey moron! Apparently you haven't heard that there is no such thing as "caucasian" phenotype. Though if by "caucasian" you mean European judging by those pics, apparently you don't know much about the pedigree of the Saudi royal families who are widely known to have saqaliba (Slavic slave) concubine ancestry. Even today Saudi princes have a penchant for adding white women to their harem or indulge in the white sex slave trafficking via Turkey that hasn't stopped since Ottoman times!
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Lol Sho ya right!
"The earliest known back migration of R1b was from Asia to Africa and took place around 15,000 years ago. A group of R1b1* people moving from the Levant to Egypt, Sudan and spreading in different directions inside Africa to Rwanda, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Congo, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Guinea-Bissau. The hotspot is Cameroon. R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. It is in all likelihood where the early R1b people first settled, then spread south and east along the coast."
And yet it is strange that the highest incidence and diversity of not only R1b1* but R1* occurs in Western and Central Africa as per your source. In fact R1b1a (V88) has its highest frequency in Cameroon along with R1*. By the way, you didn't cite the source of your quote.
M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 and M269, are confined to Egypt and Oman. Luis et. ales, 'The Horn vs. the Levant' (2004)
^ Notice how the downstream markers are present in Egypt and Oman, countries associated with paleolithic out-of-African migrations. This along with recent studies strongly correlate for AFRICAN origins of the R1 if not R clade itself!
quote:"The cooler climate and over-exploitation of resources led to the failure of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic in the Levant. Some Near Eastern farmers crossed Sinai into North Africa around 6,000 BC, taking sheep, goats, wheat and barley with them. That agro-pastoralist dispersal has been linked to subclades of the Y haplogroups E1b and R1b." s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/3081519/1/
Eeeh! WRONG. This theory was debunked by linguistics (showing NO Semitic or any other Asiatic influence) as well as bio-anthropology (skeletal remains showing no such entry) and of course archaeology which shows non either. It is because of all this that Egyptology suggests the Delta people merely adopted these animals and plants on their own which is why they used their own terms for these domesticates. On the other hand, we have all the evidence for the converse-- Africans moving into the Levant via. the Natufian culture.
quote:"Sergio Tofanelli and colleagues have investigated the modern-day distribution of Y haplogroup J1 (M267) across North Africa as well as the Middle East. They reject the idea that this can be explained simply by the spread of Islam. They find that coalescence times for lineages point to the more distant past: the period between 5,500 and 7,200 BP (3,500-5,200 BC)"
Maybe for a relatively few which were in conjunction with the expansion of E1b1b in the Mediterranean. Besides, J1 is shown to have originated in central to southern Arabia (Yemenis having the highest frequency) among a population not much different from the Africans right next door. Why there's a discussion about this here.
Yes there were many migrations into Egypt, post-pharaonic era. And we've already discussed U, in particular U6 many times which also indicates African origins. I suggest you look here and here.
quote:And you forgot the HYKSOS!
Nope. They were kicked out of Egypt by the 18th dynasty. By the way here is a depiction of a Hyksos woman.
Judging by the remnants of paint on her face and her features, she wasn't exactly the fair-and-lovely Syrian you obsess over.
quote:You clearly talking out ya butt!
No, that's YOU.
quote:That ain't really true. There is a politically correct trend to ignore Asiatic influences in Egypt...
A trend by who? Afrocentric Egyptologists?? LOL
quote:"It was immediately clear to the excavators that the Merimdens were radically different from the peoples of Upper Egypt in every respect - physically, culturally, and technologically. Their burial customs were similar to those of the southwestern, Semitic-type Asians, and strikingly different from those of all the Africans. Whereas the African tradition was to bury the dead with a variety of earthly goods to sustain them in the afterlife, and with amulets to protect them from malevolent spirits, the graves of the Merimdens contained no grave offerings of any kind..."
So? It's widely known in Egyptology that the early graves and settlements overall of the Delta are much poorer and scant compared to contemporary Upper Egypt, though this changes in later periods. I find it funny that they use a lack of evidence as evidence for something else. Usually in archaeology conclusions can only be made from material evidence, not a lack of it. I also find it strange how they use the linguistic label of Semitic when there is no way of knowing what language a people used without writing.
quote:"Throughout the village clusters of baskets or jars serving as granaries were buried up to their necks in the ground, Circular, clay-lined threshing floors also seemed to be associated with individual dwellings. The Merimdens clearly lived in more or less economically independent single family units, the foundation of the same type of patriarchal system being formed at the time in the Semitic cultures of southwestern Asia. They contrasted sharply with the autarchic systems being generated in Upper Egypt.”
The argument that single family dwellings represent patriarchal systems but ‘long house’ or large clan dwellings represent matriarchal or matrix ones is not fully valid and outdated. For example, there is historical evidence that early Semitic nomads who were matrilineal still lived in single family tents such as early Canaanites, Aramaeans, and even some early Arab tribes. The clan was not tightly nit around a single home but more spread out in an area with each tent or home having a mother descended from the clan matriarch along with a mother’s brother who protected her and served as ‘father’ to the children whose biological father may stay temporarily or visit. This form of marriage was called ‘beena’ in Semitic culture as opposed to the later ‘baal’ system of marriage where the husband is lord and master. This custom is also carried by matriarchal Berber societies as you yourself noted in another thread and is found as far east as Nepal and Tibet with historical evidence suggesting that it was also practiced by some tribes in Siberia. All these societies though matrilineal had each family reside in a dwelling of their own. Many think this was done to spare resources which could not support a large population at a time. I find it funny how you claim the matriarchy of the Berbers in another thread, but now cite a source claiming the closely related Egyptians to be more akin to later patriarchal Semites, even though this runs counter to historical claims of the ancient Greeks who not only spoke of the high status of Egyptian women (whom they encountered in the Delta), but even claimed an early Delta Egyptian queen Myrina (Merineit?) was descended from Libyan Amazons.
quote:[Merimde] shows none of the distinctively Egyptian characteristics... In its general aspects, Merimde seems more like a village of sturdy yeoman farmers than a collection of peasants subject to the whims, avarice, and authority of a powerful man or a government, although some cooperative efforts (if not collectivization of food-producing tasks) are recalled by the threshing floors up to 13 feet in diameter.2
Now I know there is something fishy about the author, judging by his biased and negative tone. So I take it he finds distinct Egyptian characteristics to mean a tyrannical king and his enslaved subjects! And I suppose the Upper Egyptians were not yeoman farmers, even though they too grew their food along the Nile.
quote:During the Naqada period the Asiatic communities of Lower Egypt began to spread upstream (southward). Several groups of farming communities were established just below modern Cairo. In 1924 a young Egyptian mineralogist, Amin el Omari, discovered the ruins of such a community in the periphery of his home town, Helwan, about twenty-three kilometers south of Cairo. Tragically, the youthful scientist died shortly thereafter. The town, and other such villages found in the region thereafter were named after him - Omari A, B, and C, as was the culture they represented...
And again that these Lower Egyptian communities were ‘Asiatic’ were based on what? The flimsy hypothesis of the author based on inconclusive evidence??
quote:The Omari villages were urbanized centers into which was introduced an impressive array of Asian agricultural products such as sycamore dates and figs, domesticated wild sugar, emmer wheat, and an evolved type of barley. The domesticated Omari animals, like those of Fayoum A and Merimde, were Mesopotamian varieties of pigs, goats, and cows. The bones of such animals were found in abundance, along with an assortment of the bones of wild animals, birds and fish of Lower Egypt. The separate housing and facilities of the villagers, each of which was self-contained, reflect the egalitarian character of Omari life. The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition." http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp010-1_egypt.htm
LMAO Now it all makes sense!! You speak of a “politically correct trend to ignore Asiatic influence”, yet the trend is actually the opposite—to ignore African influence and emphasize an Asiatic one, and nowhere is this clearer than in your very source which is just one of various academic factions by some Jews to claim a Jewish origin for early civilizations in the so-called ‘Near East’ including Egypt! Yet such claims are contradicted by mainstream archaeology including Egyptology. We already schooled our misguided Jewish friend Osirion on this.
Here is a much more reliable source: Neolithic Period to Egypt's Dynasty 1 by Bruce B. Williams, Research Associate Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago
Cultures of Northern Egypt
From the western delta to south of the Fayum, the cultures of northern Egypt occur largely in single sites or restricted areas, rather than extensive horizons. The emergence of distinct cultural traditions in northern Egypt has often been connected to the later canonical division between Upper and Lower Egypt, although these early cultures were actually located in large part south of the Delta in areas assigned to Upper Egypt. In order of appearance, the site phases are Merimda (early and main) at the western edge of the delta; Fayum A; sites near the northern shore of Lake Oarun el-Omani and Maadi just south of modern Cairo; and possibly Buto, in the northwest delta.
1. Domestic Economies. The domestic economies of northern Egypt were substantially supported by agriculture which concentrated on the cultivation of cereals. Animals such as sheep, goats, cattle, and dogs were kept; fish and a wide range of animals were taken. Even hippopotamus bones occur in the settlements (Hayes 1965: 93, 112). Hunting this dangerous animal requires the coordinated tactics of bands or crews (but see Eiwanger 1988; 44).
2. Structures and Settlements. Like earlier playa settlements, most habitations were light, irregular or oval structures made of posts and reeds, sometimes plastered with mud. Many had hearths and circular storage pits nearby, some of which were lined with baskets or mud. At Maadi, some light structures were rectangular. The settlements had no regular plan, but part of a ditch and palisade were found at Maadi, in addition to large communal storage areas. Merimda contained a number of oval structures about two meters long, built of mud or mud slabs with floors below ground level. Sometimes a small jar would be imbedded in the floor near one end of the oval, and a stick or hippopotamus tibia would be plastered against the wall near the opposite end (Hayes 1965: 105). The buildings, some arranged as though on a lane (Hayes 1965: 105), were built only in restricted areas, probably for a special purpose (Eiwanger 1982: 68). They may be related to structures at Maadi that were sunk into the ground over two meters and approached by steps. One very large (10 x 6 x 2 m) and elaborate brick-lined sunken structure had a special entry and a niche. It was found with a cemetery and large deposits of fish and pottery vessels, many containing grain. These structures at Merimda and Maadi, especially the large building, may represent a tradition of religious architecture (Anonymous 1986).
3. Religious Practice. Other evidence of religious practice includes burials, deposits, and possibly structural features. Early Merimda contained a small cemetery of contracted burials, mostly placed with the heads south, on the right side. Later, burials in the Merimda levels were oriented irregularly (Eiwanger 1982; Hayes 1965: 112-13). In the el-Omari and Maadi phases, burials were made in cemeteries, some of them very large. Grave goods were deposited with later burials, and some later graves have simple dolmen-like superstructures. Even some goats were buried at Heliopolis with grave goods (Debono and Mortenson 1988: 39, 46-48). Female figurines and an eggshaped terra-cotta head from Merimda are not readily connected to known traditions, but a deposit with axes and a hippopotamus figurine (Eiwanger 1982: 76-80; 1988; 46) and the hippopotamus tibia used as steps may be forerunners of Egyptian magical practices.
4. Manufactured Goods. The handmade pottery of earliest Merimda was relatively fine, but apart from some stands, the mostly ovoid shapes were simpler than later pottery. Many vessels were pattern burnished with a pebble. Some vessels have a band of incised herringbone decoration, a feature that occurs both in Palestine and elsewhere in northern Africa (Eiwanger 1984: 61). The pottery of later Merimda was coarser, with vegetable temper. Shapes remained simple, but knobs and lugs were sometimes applied (Hayes 1965: 106-107; Eiwanger 1979: 28-38, 56; 1988: 15-33, pls, 1-32). Most vessels were burnished, with a dark surface color. This simple pottery continued at Maadi. Only a few pieces were decorated in red paint on a light ground, and the finer red and black burnished vessels were accompanied by much coarse dark pottery, and some very large storage jars (Ibrahim and Seeher 1987: pls. 2,2 and 28,2). In other industries, the stone vessels of Maadi were more elaborate than those found at Merinda (Hayes 1965:126). Copper was also worked at Maadi from imported ores.
5. Trade. Trade and contacts expanded greatly between the time of Merimda and Maadi, but imports from the East primarily consisted of raw materials such as copper ore and asphalt, or oils; most objects were made locally or regionally, although wavy-handled jars were imported from southwest Asia and some vessels and other objects were imported or imitated from Upper Egypt (Kaiser 1985: 70; Ibrahim and Seeher 1984; vorr der Way 1987; 242-247, 256-257).
6. End of Northern Egypt. Maadi ended early in the second phase (II) of Upper Egypt's Naqada culture; Kaiser 1985: fig.10). The settlement seems to have been finally destroyed by fire (Hayes 1965: 123). Maadi was the last of Lower Egypt's cultures in the area, although Buto in the Delta where a settlement with a cemetery has recently been found may continue (von der Way 1986; 1987: 242-247, including Naqada II pottery; Kaiser 1985: fig.10).
7. Summary. In northern Egypt, a large number of small, shifting villages probably sustained a few more permanent large settlements (Eiwanger 1987: fig.9). Consolidated in the area of Helwan and Maadi, these centers transcended the shifting earlier habitations without eliminating cultural variations (Kaiser 1985: 67), a contrast with the more uniform Naqada culture of Upper Egypt.
Oh my. One can now see the type of info your source 'Hebrew History' happened to omit. Foremost, the earliest settlements in the Delta occur in the southern areas, specifically the southwest and NOT the northeast as one would expect Asiatics to settle. 1. While they utilized animals originally of Asian origin like sheep, they also utilized native African animals like hippos. 2. They built typical African style reed and mud huts, some oval some rectangular shaped. 3. While early Merimda burials had no items, the bodies were interred with heads facing south on the right side similar to Upper Egyptians. 4. They had a pottery style used not only in Palestine but in much of North Africa. 5. While they conducted trade with Asia, they mostly imported raw material while manufacturing their own goods just like Upper Egyptians. Again NO evidence that the Delta people themselves were from Asia, and I noticed you ignored the source I cited showing skeletal that they are a continuation of Africans NOT Asians.
quote:Generally the men spend more time outdoors in the elements. That is the real reason. Dummy. The daker coloring of the Egyptian men is really due to ..tanning.
I already told you the women staying indoors is a myth, since yellow colored women are shown in art working outdoors alongside men also! So you think that the original complexions of the men were yellowish like the women but when they tanned they became chocolate dark like these men?
That’s one hell of a tan!! LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)...... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of negroid origin."
Upper Egypt is down in the South near Sudan. They was mosly Black.. Dontcha know nuthin??
Are you on drugs with your weird typed grammar and illogical geography?? Lower Egypt is right next to Upper Egypt with NOTHING separating them. In fact, Thebes is about as close to the Sudanese border as it is to the Delta. So what exactly makes the Lower Egyptians non-black when the Upper Egyptians are??
quote:And what is this question you keep sayin I'm avioding?
"What is mandated for certain (Mediterranean) traits, we speak of, to appear. What is required? Alias clown!"
quote:Autosomal DNA.
Now Begone!
Pray tell what source of ancient Lower or Delta Egyptian autosomal DNA supports your claims??
I have heard of non extracted thus far, though we have evidence of their very skeletons:
Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation
We've long had cranial evidence showing close affinity to Upper Egyptians. DNA will be the final nail in your coffin. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: "Clade E lineages were more frequent in the Greeks (21%) as compared to Pakistan (4%). The majority of haplogroup E chromosomes belonged to clade E3b and all Greek and Pakistani samples were resolved into the branches E3b1 (M78) and E3b3 (M123). Among the three Pakistani populations claiming Greek descent, this clade was observed only in the Pathans. The Pathan samples belonged to clade E3b1 that constituted 17% of the Greek samples.--Sadaf Firasat et al.
And multiple streams of migrations of Hg E-78* have moved into Arabian Peninsula and South West Asia. This is how the Afroasiatic phylum spread into the Arabian Peninsula to West Asia.
Indeed. Not only to do we have linguistic evidence to support so-called Afroasiatic's origin in Africa with Semitic being the only non-African outlier, but DNA evidence both in Y-chromosomal & mitochondrial lineages show emigrations of Africans into right next-door Arabia and Levant.
quote:
Actually this picture shows a Persian, specifically Elamite, warrior. The Elamites were the indigenous people of Iran and founders of civilization there prior to Indo-European speaking Persians. This comes to show that even Eurasians come in black looks, which again throws a monkey wrench in the Malcontent's protests of "Eurasian" as if the label is a proxy for non-black.
quote:
I read this book many years ago during my initial research into Egypt's African identity and the author Williams had it wrong when he said Lower Egyptian Delta culture was the product of invading Asiatics who mixed with natives. His thesis was little different from the Malcontent's. We now know that Delta culture was just as indigenous and African as their Upper/Southern Egyptian Valley brethren.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Hey moron! Apparently you haven't heard that there is no such thing as "caucasian" phenotype. Though if by "caucasian" you mean European judging by those pics, apparently you don't know much about the pedigree of the Saudi royal families who are widely known to have saqaliba (Slavic slave) concubine ancestry.
Caucasian pehenotype isn't limited to Europeans you numbskull. What about Kurds, Iranians, Northern Indians?
Iranian Woman.
Caucasisn features are all over Western Asia. All you can do is lie and make believe.
The argument that single family dwellings represent patriarchal systems but ‘long house’ or large clan dwellings represent matriarchal or matrix ones is not fully valid and outdated. For example, there is historical evidence that early Semitic nomads who were matrilineal still lived in single family tents such as early Canaanites, Aramaeans, and even some early Arab tribes
That is not the only basis for their conclusions ignoramus.
Now it all makes sense!! You speak of a “politically correct trend to ignore Asiatic influence”, yet the trend is actually the opposite—to ignore African influence and emphasize an Asiatic one, and nowhere is this clearer than in your very source which is just one of various academic factions by some Jews to claim a Jewish origin for early civilizations in the so-called ‘Near East’ including Egypt!
Oh really?? Read it again.
"The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition."
Again NO evidence that the Delta people themselves were from Asia, and I noticed you ignored the source I cited showing skeletal that they are a continuation of Africans NOT Asians.
Sigh..please tell me what great barrier sperated Egyptians from palestine and the Levant? You don't even seem to understand that the term Asian and Afrcan is only relative here. Did not many folks in Palestine etc descend from the E carrying African Natufians?? Would palestinian skeletons be so vastly different then?
Your sour says...the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt ..then goes on to say this. ..The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans
Suddlenly the author jumps from Palestinians to Europeans. So who is he really comparing the Egyptians to? What is his real aganda. Most sudies will show differences in between Lower and Upper Egyptians with the the Latter being more tropically adapted closer to Nubians and the former much less so. Thats a fact.
Lower Egypt is right next to Upper Egypt with NOTHING separating them. In fact, Thebes is about as close to the Sudanese border as it is to the Delta. So what exactly makes the Lower Egyptians non-black when the Upper Egyptians are??
Damn you are dumb. To you have any idea how large Egypt is. Only a serious simpleton would say that Lower Egypt is right next to Upper Egypt. Lol!
Pray tell what source of ancient Lower or Delta Egyptian autosomal DNA supports your claims?? I have heard of non extracted thus far, though we have evidence of their very skeletons
I'll do you one better. How about aDNA from further South in Egypt??
"Attempts to extract ancient DNA or aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains have yielded mainly Eurasian DNA types from the Dakleh Oasis cemetery site (from Southern Egypt), and they show a considerable increase in the amount of sub Saharan mitchondrial DNA over the past 2,000 years, suggesting that within this timeframe there was more migration from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Nile Valley than from Eurasia to the latter. One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, a minority of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa." Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
How many more nails would you like for your coffin?
Oh and I love your Black Egyptian with the Afro. How typical he must have been when we know from mummies that most Egyptians had staright to wavy hair with aquiline noses.
Actually this picture shows a Persian, specifically Elamite, warrior. The Elamites were the indigenous people of Iran and founders of civilization there prior to Indo-European speaking Persians. This comes to show that even Eurasians come in black looks, which again throws a monkey wrench in the Malcontent's protests of "Eurasian" as if the label is a proxy for non-black.
Yeah right a Persian with a straight nose and Blues eyes. Brilliant! Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Caucasian pehenotype isn't limited to Europeans you numbskull. What about Kurds, Iranians, Northern Indians?
Iranian Woman.
Caucasisn features are all over Western Asia. All you can do is lie and make believe.
"Caucasian" features can refer to many things such as long narrow noses which are found in Sub-Saharan Africans as well. You do realize that the very term "caucasian" as a scientific entity is debunked, right?! If not, then please give me a specific definition!
quote:That is not the only basis for their conclusions ignoramus.
Really? What else? "They" [your source] is flawed to begin with, and I'd rather trust mainstream Egyptology for obvious reasons.
quote:Oh really?? Read it again.
"The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition."
Actually, Egyptology has shown that all these traits were found earliest in the western Sahara FIRST before the Delta itself, let alone the Levant.
quote:Sigh..please tell me what great barrier sperated Egyptians from palestine and the Levant? You don't even seem to understand that the term Asian and Afrcan is only relative here. Did not many folks in Palestine etc descend from the E carrying African Natufians?? Would palestinian skeletons be so vastly different then?
Stupid strawman arguments. Of course there was no barrier between the Delta and Palestine. However all the evidence (from mainstream Egpytology) shows the Delta people did NOT originate from Palestine, and that prior to Merimda the African Mushabeans migrated into Palestine to give rise to the Natufians hence, the similarities nitwit!
quote:Your source says...the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt ..then goes on to say this. ..The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans
Suddlenly the author jumps from Palestinians to Europeans. So who is he really comparing the Egyptians to? What is his real agenda. Most studies will show differences in between Lower and Upper Egyptians with the the Latter being more tropically adapted closer to Nubians and the former much less so. Thats a fact.
LOL More spinning from you. First, it is a well known fact that predynastic settlements in the Delta are small and scanty compared to Upper Egypt to begin with, so of course the sample size is small! Second, there are sources that show the population in the Levant have cold adapted traits more similar to Europeans than to Africans. The study I presented verifies that the Delta folk ARE Africans, thus their tropical adapted traits. As for most studies you speak of showing differences between Lower and Upper Egyptians, those studies were on cranial features which are more plastic and don't give as good indication of latitudinal origins as skeletal bodies!! So what if Upper Egyptians are closer to Nubians? Lower Egyptians are closer to Asiatics, but that does not mean they are of Asiatic origins!! Their skeletons show they share the same tropical ancestry as their Upper Egyptian brethren which cranial studies show more similarities as well than differences!
quote:Damn you are dumb. To you have any idea how large Egypt is. Only a serious simpleton would say that Lower Egypt is right next to Upper Egypt. Lol!
YOU are the dummy!! Yes Egypt is large, but please show me the dividing line between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt! What is the exact border that separates them??
quote:I'll do you one better. How about aDNA from further South in Egypt??
"Attempts to extract ancient DNA or aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains have yielded mainly Eurasian DNA types from the Dakleh Oasis cemetery site (from Southern Egypt), and they show a considerable increase in the amount of sub Saharan mitchondrial DNA over the past 2,000 years, suggesting that within this timeframe there was more migration from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Nile Valley than from Eurasia to the latter. One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, a minority of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa." Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
How many more nails would you like for your coffin?
LOL I don't have a coffin since I'm not dead like YOU. Can please cite from your source what exactly is 'Eurasian' about the autosomes?? Since I and others from this thread have read sources before claiming Eurasian DNA in ancient African remains only to see those claims debunked. Your source then goes into mitochondrial DNA; what lineages were those and what exactly makes them sub-Saharan as opposed to indigenous?? By the way, I can name the African autosomal traits in ancient Greeks like Benin HBS and African mitochondrial lineages like N1a. Can you provide me more details from your source?
quote:Oh and I love your Black Egyptian with the Afro. How typical he must have been when we know from mummies that most Egyptians had straight to wavy hair with aquiline noses.
Actually the Egyptian with the afro was 18th dynasty king Amenhotep III the father of Akhenaten and grandfather of Tutankhamun. Like most Egyptians especially the elite his afro was likely a wig, which makes one wonder why Egyptians wore wigs in such obvious African hairstyles from afros to braids. Also it is a known fact that hair does not retain the same form after thousands of years post-mortem especially when affected by embalming chemicals like natron used in Egyptian mummification. Besides, wavy hair and aquiline noses are not unusual for east Africans in Sub-Sahara and even some West Africans for that matter. So are you suggesting those are "caucasian traits" again??
quote:Yeah right a Persian with a straight nose and Blues eyes. Brilliant!
And BLACK SKIN according to that picture which makes him indigenous to Iran and thus not ethnically Persian. There are indigenous Indians with straight noses, green eyes, and still black skinned. What's your point??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Posts: 138 | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, you never answered my question Malcontent. Who is closer to King Tut here in complexion?
Your cherry picked Egyptian girl?
Or this Egyptian boy from rural Luxor?
Yes, this is what the average boy from Luxor looks like.
Now, the part that clown with the imaginary black father couldn't comprehend, is that in some parts it can get very cold during the night and early morning, like °F 37.4 sometimes lower. As the temperature rises slow during 6-am and 10-am to °F 60.8. Then rises quickly up to °F 77 and higher to during the middle of the day, till it reacher its hot peak. In the afternoon is lowers again by 22:00 PM it has dropped dramatically, already
This brought rise to the (Kushitic) phenotype we see in Northeast Africans. And we know diet too effects the body.
Anyone who thinks this change of climate and temperature in such small time frame doesn't effect the body morphologically, doesn't understand physical anthropology.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The studies cited do not say when any so-called "Eurasian/Arab phenotype" took hold in West Asia. They simply correctly note that tropical phenotypesare represented. If you have any questions take them up with the aforementioned scholars, already fully cited. In any event it is common knowledge that migrations of Indo-European speakers to join with in situ populations have been ongoing into the West Asia for centuries. Pick whatever migration date suits you.
Ha! Tis as I thought. Your knowledge of the Middle East is laugahbale. First of all the Cuacasian phenotype is not unique to Indo-Europeans and there have been no significant movements of Indo Europeans reaching down into southern mesopotamia or the Arabian peninsula. The closest I can think of were the Cimmerians. Admit it, you haven't a clue how they changed. And to leave you even more perplexed, here is a photo of the former Arabian ambassador Turki al Faisal.
Oh and here is Saudi Princess Dalal Al Saud.
Besides what Djehuti stated. Are they warm/ tropical adapted or cold adapted or maybe intermediate?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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