quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
I've asked about this a couple of times too.
We read about private citizens sailing off into the Atlantic loaded with trade goods. If they returned empty handed was what they took payment for a luxury Caribbean vacation women, rum, cigars & entertainment included?
Would a successful colony on Abubakari II's scale ship America's products, produce, and natural resources to Mali empire? I'd think so. But it looks like Mali never heard from him again unless they were keeping it a trade secret.
It seems as if either one of the world's best kept secrets or the Mali expedition colony was low key or Abubakari may've intended to maybe leave Mali and all it meant to him for good.
Please share. I've waited years for evidence of Abubakari establishing transoceanic trade not just the private non-governmental type observed by the Euro explorers.
The Smithstonian put a gag order on vanSertima after he revealed the institution negated its valid C14 date of 1250 for the two Africans, who's incisor teeth were filed, buried at Hull Bay. Because of something so simple as an iron nail TSI concluded the date must be wrong. As if West Africans 750 years ago couldn't manufacture nails.
I don't know. Sure hope an active poster or knowledgeable lurker has those updates.
I would like to see more hard evidence on it too. We know the voyage from Africa to the Americas was technically feasible using the technology of Abu Bakr's day. Thor Hyerdahl' raft voyages proved feasibility, as do the watercraft available in West Africa. I think Bakr's expedition is a possibility, but whether it would be 80,000 men seems doubtful. Why would the monarch spend such vast resources to outfit a massive expedition into the unknown? He's just gonna give up his throne and sail off with 80,000 men? A much smaller, tighter exploration group seems more credible and economical. Load-outs of 80,000 men generally are military invasions of some targeted enemy.
The other main problem is that convincing evidence of these tens of thousands of Africans swarming up various American beaches is not that strong. Fragmentary reports of European explorers of dark-skinned people here and there seem more in line with small groups spread out over time, not massive fleets of hundreds of canoes, carrying tens of thousands. The ocean-spanning Polynesians who reached the frozen wastes of Antartica, and bestrode the vast reaches of the Pacific, were not running thousands of vessels in a fleet, but small groups of men spread out over time. The numbers appear unconvincing, which why I think sweeping claims of colonization remain shaky, even apart from the thin evidence in the America's of reputed massive swarms of Africans coming ashore.
There are some who seem to think Abubakr should be accepted at face value, but why should this be so automatically? When some Portugese sources in the 1500s claimed armies of over one million African troops defeated scholars rightly questioned those claims. How exactly were moderately productive pre-mech agriculturalists putting one million combat troops into the field over such a short time? Even Ghenghis Khan or the Spanish Armada did not boast such fantastic numbers. Yet we are supposed to just take it at face value about 2000 canoes and 80,000 men.
You and Tukuler can not accept Abubakari's discovery of America because you have been brainwashed to believe Africans lack the ability as navigators and boat builders. Your feelings of inferiority prevent you from weighting the evidence in a non-bias fashion.As a result, no matter what evidence is placed before you in support of the Abubakari expedition YOU will not accept it until the status quo, i.e., authoritative white scholars accepts the idea. This will not happen because it defeats the myth that the only history of African people is slavery. Since you already feel inferior, you will not publicly support Abubakari's expedition because whites don't accept it, and you might face public ridicule .It is sad Afro-American would-be scholars would support te status quo, instead of speaking truth to power. Face it, you guys are cowards.
Just admit it, you don’t accept the idea that Abubakari and the Malians made it to America, because you are waiting for some white authority figure to say its true. People accept the idea that Leif Erikson discovered America based on the Sagas of Icelanders and a few artifacts from Norse L'Anse aux Meadows on the northern tip of Newfoundland in modern-day Canada. The Abubakari expedition is also based on oral tradition recorded by the Arabs. To support this Malian “saga”, we have 1) hundreds of Mande inscriptions found along rivers and the Atlantic coastline, in North, Central and South America; 2) Spanish mention of Tribes from South America to the American Southwest named Mande; 3) Mande substratum in Amerindian languages; the Mande term for boat Kali, is the Nahuatl word for boat; 5) identical artifacts found in the Mounds of West Africa and the Americas especially along the Mississippi River; 6) Northeastern United States Indian Numerals that are really Mande numbers; etc., and etc. But people, including you, can not accept the idea that Abubakari led thousands of Malians to the Americas in the 1300’s. You will say you are waiting for more evidence when we already have more evidence for the Malian expedition, than that of the Icelanders. This demand for more data is just a cover for your feelings of inferiority.
Weight the evidence it is clearly one-sided in favor of a Mali discovery of America. Yet, the Abubakari expedition is rejected. Given the evidence, Abubakari’s expedition to the Americas is not a conundrum, the idea is not accepted because of white supremacy among whites, and feelings of inferiority among Blacks. Blacks like you, and others, can not accept the Abubakari expedition because whites don’t accept it. Whites on the otherhand, with little to no evidence, accept the alleged Leif Erickson adventure because of racial pride. Due to feelings of inferiority, most African and Afro-Americans accept scholarship as valid or invalid based on how the scholarly idea is accepted by whites, not based on the evidence.
2) Spanish mention of Tribes from South America to the American Southwest named Mande;
what Spanish document mentions South American tribes named Mande?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
3) Mande substratum in Amerindian languages;
which other languages outside of Africa have a Mande substratum ?
I am not going to waste may time talking about Mande tribes we have went over this forum many time.
Languages outside of Africa with Mande include Otomi, many Mayan languages, Nanticoke and Mixe-Zoque to name a few. See: Leo Wiener , Africa and the Discovery of America; and
2) Spanish mention of Tribes from South America to the American Southwest named Mande;
I am not going to waste may time talking about Mande tribes we have went over this forum many time.
just need a reference to a Spanish document where they mention a tribe in South American named Mande
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Languages outside of Africa with Mande include Otomi, many Mayan languages, Nanticoke and Mixe-Zoque to name a few. See: Leo Wiener , Africa and the Discovery of America; and
what about on other continents? Do you have a chart somewhere where it shows all the branches of Mande?
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Clyde says: You and Tukuler can not accept Abubakari's discovery of America because you have been brainwashed to believe Africans lack the ability as navigators and boat builders. Your feelings of inferiority prevent you from weighting the evidence in a non-bias fashion
I knew you would reply with your usual round of BS rather than simply address the question of the numbers. Above I already say the voyage was technically feasible with existing watercraft technology. And no, the weight of evidence is not in favor, just as the "weight of evidence" is lacking in your "Olmec" theory- which is why user Quetzalcoatl schools you repeatedly, and regularly, including your fake citations and your fraudulent "Uthman Dan Fodio Institute- University of Chicago." In fact your so-called "institute" has no affiliation with the University of Chicago but is a now defunct house school somewhere in Chicago.
THE UTHMAN DAN FODIO INSTITUTE, CHICAGO ILLNOIS IS A NOW DEFUNCT PRIVATE AFROCENTRIC SCHOOL of fourteen 8th to 9th grade kids in a house, with one teacher. It has no affiliation with the University of Chicago.
quote:We have established that your comments on PLoS Genetics and BioEssays were not peer reviewed and have the letters from the editors to prove it. The next one to fall is you "letter" to the Proceedings of the Royal Society-- BTW Busby never replied to it.
Original paper; (submitted May 17 2011; accepted August 17, 2011 i.e peer reviewed)
Busby, B. J. et al. 2012 “The Peopling of Europe and the Cautionary Tale of Y Chromosome Lineage R-M 269,” Proceedings of the Royal Society B 279: 884-892.
Winters, C. “The First Europeans were Sub-Saharan Africans,” Published only electronically March 23, 2012 (no date of submission, PLoS Genetics posted one day after submission)
Letter from Editorial Staff at Royal Society: peer review Inbox x
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano <bodemontellano@gmail.com> Dec 6 (2 days ago)
to publishing
Dear Sirs: Are e-letters commenting on published articles subjected to peer review before publishing, or are they just routinely vetted by an editor?
Thank You, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano Emeritus, Professor of Anthropology Wayne State University
Vaughan, Debbie <Debbie.Vaughan@royalsociety.org> 9:47 AM (13 hours ago)
to me
Hi Bernard
The latter: routinely vetted by an editor.
Kind regards,
Debbie
As I pointed out in the beginning anything that Winters submits to quality peer reviewed journals is in the nature of comments which are routinely posted and rate NOT peer reviewed. The letter from PNAS is coming and predictably will say the same.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [ .
Clyde, you are taking advantage of some naiveté about peer reviewed journals and Pub Med. What thou claim is not accurate. Most of the "articles" you claim in journals like PNAS are your letters commenting on a legitimate article. These letters are NOT reviewed and just published-- i.e. like the vanity press Current research Journal of Social Sciences which has no review and published your article full of typos so it was not even proofread. Similarly, the talk that is mentioned at the start of this thread, is NOT peer reviewed. Talks at regional meetings, particularly those that not part of organized sessions on a particular topic are NOT reviewed or given academic approval.
quote:LOL. You continue to be the Great Deciever.
Secondly, article, letter etc., if published in a peer-reviewed journal is peer reviewed. You do not have a paper cited by PubMed unless it was peer reviewed by the Academe experts.
WRONG. You are playing semantics assuming that your readers don't know the difference. Letters to the editor and articles to journals are peer reviewed BUT what you have been sending in are COMMENTS AND RESPONSES which are not peer reviewed thus your claim that to be cited in pubMed guarantees peer review or acceptance by the scientific community is baloney. The reason your comment on Friedlander's paper is listed is BECAUSE it is attached to a valid paper and is included fro completeness. Just as another comment that just congratulated the authors was also listed.
The paper in question is: Friedlander, J. S., et al. 2008 “The Genetic Structure of Pacific Islanders” PLoS Genetics January 18, 2008 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.0040019
Clyde's comment is: Winters, C. 2008 “Skeletal Evidence of Early Polynesian and Melanesian Contact in East Asia,” Posted by PLoS_Genetics on 26 Feb 2008 at 13:45 GMT Originally submitted as a Reader Response by Clyde Winters (c-winters@govst.edu) on 25 January 2008:
Notice that the response was posted one day after receiving—i.e. no time for peer review.
following is a letter from the editor of PLoS Genetics:
"Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed).
Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps.
Best wishes, Andy
Andy Collings Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics
I could multiply this with similar letters from Bioassays, and other journals, but this will suffice to show who is a liar and who is not. Readers of the discussion group can go to the open access PLoS Genetics and verify that my cites are exact. Clyde is trying to gain some measure of academic respectability, which cannot be gotten by publishing in vanity journals and self published Amazon books by leeching on to legitimate peer reviewed articles with non-reviewable "comments" and "responses."
As the letter from the editor of PLoS Genetics pointed out {b]Letters to the Editor[/b} ARE peer reviewed. The problem is that what you send in are NOT letters to the editor but non-reviewable "comments and responses" How long can you fool your followers? [/QB]
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
I've asked about this a couple of times too.
We read about private citizens sailing off into the Atlantic loaded with trade goods. If they returned empty handed was what they took payment for a luxury Caribbean vacation women, rum, cigars & entertainment included?
Would a successful colony on Abubakari II's scale ship America's products, produce, and natural resources to Mali empire? I'd think so. But it looks like Mali never heard from him again unless they were keeping it a trade secret.
It seems as if either one of the world's best kept secrets or the Mali expedition colony was low key or Abubakari may've intended to maybe leave Mali and all it meant to him for good.
Please share. I've waited years for evidence of Abubakari establishing transoceanic trade not just the private non-governmental type observed by the Euro explorers.
The Smithstonian put a gag order on vanSertima after he revealed the institution negated its valid C14 date of 1250 for the two Africans, who's incisor teeth were filed, buried at Hull Bay. Because of something so simple as an iron nail TSI concluded the date must be wrong. As if West Africans 750 years ago couldn't manufacture nails.
I don't know. Sure hope an active poster or knowledgeable lurker has those updates.
I would like to see more hard evidence on it too. We know the voyage from Africa to the Americas was technically feasible using the technology of Abu Bakr's day. Thor Hyerdahl' raft voyages proved feasibility, as do the watercraft available in West Africa. I think Bakr's expedition is a possibility, but whether it would be 80,000 men seems doubtful. Why would the monarch spend such vast resources to outfit a massive expedition into the unknown? He's just gonna give up his throne and sail off with 80,000 men? A much smaller, tighter exploration group seems more credible and economical. Load-outs of 80,000 men generally are military invasions of some targeted enemy.
The other main problem is that convincing evidence of these tens of thousands of Africans swarming up various American beaches is not that strong. Fragmentary reports of European explorers of dark-skinned people here and there seem more in line with small groups spread out over time, not massive fleets of hundreds of canoes, carrying tens of thousands. The ocean-spanning Polynesians who reached the frozen wastes of Antartica, and bestrode the vast reaches of the Pacific, were not running thousands of vessels in a fleet, but small groups of men spread out over time. The numbers appear unconvincing, which why I think sweeping claims of colonization remain shaky, even apart from the thin evidence in the America's of reputed massive swarms of Africans coming ashore.
There are some who seem to think Abubakr should be accepted at face value, but why should this be so automatically? When some Portugese sources in the 1500s claimed armies of over one million African troops defeated scholars rightly questioned those claims. How exactly were moderately productive pre-mech agriculturalists putting one million combat troops into the field over such a short time? Even Ghenghis Khan or the Spanish Armada did not boast such fantastic numbers. Yet we are supposed to just take it at face value about 2000 canoes and 80,000 men.
Well his successor Mansa Musa had similar numbers on his international trip to Egypt and Mecca
quote: Musa made his pilgrimage in 1324. His procession was reported to have included 60,000 men, 12,000 slaves who each carried four pounds of gold bars, heralds dressed in silks who bore gold staffs, organized horses and handled bags. Musa provided all necessities for the procession, feeding the entire company of men and animals.[9] Also in the train were 80 camels, which varying reports claim carried between 50 and 300 pounds of gold dust each. He gave away the gold to the poor he met along his route. Musa not only gave to the cities he passed on the way to Mecca, including Cairo and Medina, but also traded gold for souvenirs. It has been recorded that he built a mosque each and every Friday.
Now I take it that upon entering Egypt the locals would have done a simple head count,as there was every possibility of it turning into an invasion, and we have to keep in mind these guys were filthy rich, Mansa Musa is touted to be the single richest individual in history according to Forbes mag. And the size and population of Timbuktu was twice that of London but even earlier yet at about 300b.c the site of Timbuktu was 4 times the size of London and could rival any city in Mesopotamia of that era. the student population alone stood at 20,000 now this is just one city in that vast empire,hard to imagine Timbuktu as it was in yesteryears now dusty and impoverished.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Clyde says: You and Tukuler can not accept Abubakari's discovery of America because you have been brainwashed to believe Africans lack the ability as navigators and boat builders. Your feelings of inferiority prevent you from weighting the evidence in a non-bias fashion
I knew you would reply with your usual round of BS rather than simply address the question of the numbers. Above I already say the voyage was technically feasible with existing watercraft technology. And no, the weight of evidence is not in favor, just as the "weight of evidence" is lacking in your "Olmec" theory- which is why user Quetzalcoatl schools you repeatedly, and regularly, including your fake citations and your fraudulent "Uthman Dan Fodio Institute- University of Chicago." In fact your so-called "institute" has no affiliation with the University of Chicago but is a now defunct house school somewhere in Chicago.
THE UTHMAN DAN FODIO INSTITUTE, CHICAGO ILLNOIS IS A NOW DEFUNCT PRIVATE AFROCENTRIC SCHOOL of fourteen 8th to 9th grade kids in a house, with one teacher. It has no affiliation with the University of Chicago.
quote:We have established that your comments on PLoS Genetics and BioEssays were not peer reviewed and have the letters from the editors to prove it. The next one to fall is you "letter" to the Proceedings of the Royal Society-- BTW Busby never replied to it.
Original paper; (submitted May 17 2011; accepted August 17, 2011 i.e peer reviewed)
Busby, B. J. et al. 2012 “The Peopling of Europe and the Cautionary Tale of Y Chromosome Lineage R-M 269,” Proceedings of the Royal Society B 279: 884-892.
Winters, C. “The First Europeans were Sub-Saharan Africans,” Published only electronically March 23, 2012 (no date of submission, PLoS Genetics posted one day after submission)
Letter from Editorial Staff at Royal Society: peer review Inbox x
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano <bodemontellano@gmail.com> Dec 6 (2 days ago)
to publishing
Dear Sirs: Are e-letters commenting on published articles subjected to peer review before publishing, or are they just routinely vetted by an editor?
Thank You, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano Emeritus, Professor of Anthropology Wayne State University
Vaughan, Debbie <Debbie.Vaughan@royalsociety.org> 9:47 AM (13 hours ago)
to me
Hi Bernard
The latter: routinely vetted by an editor.
Kind regards,
Debbie
As I pointed out in the beginning anything that Winters submits to quality peer reviewed journals is in the nature of comments which are routinely posted and rate NOT peer reviewed. The letter from PNAS is coming and predictably will say the same.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [ .
Clyde, you are taking advantage of some naiveté about peer reviewed journals and Pub Med. What thou claim is not accurate. Most of the "articles" you claim in journals like PNAS are your letters commenting on a legitimate article. These letters are NOT reviewed and just published-- i.e. like the vanity press Current research Journal of Social Sciences which has no review and published your article full of typos so it was not even proofread. Similarly, the talk that is mentioned at the start of this thread, is NOT peer reviewed. Talks at regional meetings, particularly those that not part of organized sessions on a particular topic are NOT reviewed or given academic approval.
quote:LOL. You continue to be the Great Deciever.
Secondly, article, letter etc., if published in a peer-reviewed journal is peer reviewed. You do not have a paper cited by PubMed unless it was peer reviewed by the Academe experts.
WRONG. You are playing semantics assuming that your readers don't know the difference. Letters to the editor and articles to journals are peer reviewed BUT what you have been sending in are COMMENTS AND RESPONSES which are not peer reviewed thus your claim that to be cited in pubMed guarantees peer review or acceptance by the scientific community is baloney. The reason your comment on Friedlander's paper is listed is BECAUSE it is attached to a valid paper and is included fro completeness. Just as another comment that just congratulated the authors was also listed.
The paper in question is: Friedlander, J. S., et al. 2008 “The Genetic Structure of Pacific Islanders” PLoS Genetics January 18, 2008 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.0040019
Clyde's comment is: Winters, C. 2008 “Skeletal Evidence of Early Polynesian and Melanesian Contact in East Asia,” Posted by PLoS_Genetics on 26 Feb 2008 at 13:45 GMT Originally submitted as a Reader Response by Clyde Winters (c-winters@govst.edu) on 25 January 2008:
Notice that the response was posted one day after receiving—i.e. no time for peer review.
following is a letter from the editor of PLoS Genetics:
"Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed).
Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps.
Best wishes, Andy
Andy Collings Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics
I could multiply this with similar letters from Bioassays, and other journals, but this will suffice to show who is a liar and who is not. Readers of the discussion group can go to the open access PLoS Genetics and verify that my cites are exact. Clyde is trying to gain some measure of academic respectability, which cannot be gotten by publishing in vanity journals and self published Amazon books by leeching on to legitimate peer reviewed articles with non-reviewable "comments" and "responses."
As the letter from the editor of PLoS Genetics pointed out {b]Letters to the Editor[/b} ARE peer reviewed. The problem is that what you send in are NOT letters to the editor but non-reviewable "comments and responses" How long can you fool your followers?
[/QB]
LOL. You're stupid and an afraid negro. I use negro in the sense of a brain washed Afro-American who wants to write ancient history, but due to acceptance of white supremacy can only write themes they feel white people will not attack.
I never said the Uthman dan Fodio Institute was affiliated with the University of Chicago. I have always admitted that I founded the Institute in the 1980's. Here is the website: http://olmec98.net/UdFI.htm
As you can see there is no mention of affiliation with the University of Chicago.
Also, I have never tried to pass off a "Comment", as a peer reviewed article. I have written many Comments to articles I disagree with.
As I said before you are a Coward, and brainwashed. Due to being brainwashed you feel that as long as you parrot white researchers you will be safe.
You are very jealous. You just can't understand how any well educated Afro-American can have the nerve to stand up to the racist who deny Black people have an ancient history. I fight the status quo, because I stand on the shoulders of W.E.B. DuBois. DuBois had a PhD, and in the World and Africa, he showed that the history of Blacks was not just a history of Black people in Africa. To make you even more jealous below are a few of my recent papers:Recent Peer reviewed articles relating to genetics and etc:
You are just a weak afraid Black man. You are afraid to be wrong and outed by the racist academy. If you do good research, you may make mistakes, but you can bet that the establishment scholars will never attack your work until after you die because you can support your research and would make their comments look stupid.
What you need to do is go back to school and learn how to do and write research.Once you do this you may have the confidence to write history and anthropological papers.Then you may learn the art of arguementaion and understand that real scholars make hypotheses and gather data to confirm their research.
A luta continua
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Brada says: Well his successor Mansa Musa had similar numbers on his international trip to Egypt and Mecca
quote: Musa made his pilgrimage in 1324. His procession was reported to have included 60,000 men, 12,000 slaves who each carried four pounds of gold bars, heralds dressed in silks who bore gold staffs, organized horses and handled bags. Musa provided all necessities for the procession, feeding the entire company of men and animals.[9] Also in the train were 80 camels, which varying reports claim carried between 50 and 300 pounds of gold dust each. He gave away the gold to the poor he met along his route. Musa not only gave to the cities he passed on the way to Mecca, including Cairo and Medina, but also traded gold for souvenirs. It has been recorded that he built a mosque each and every Friday.
Well that's what I was hoping for- some discussion on the feasibility of the numbers. As I say it was feasible technologically, and you show the cash or resources were available. I can readily see 60K men on land. But notice this is still less than the much more difficult sea voyage over 4,000 miles of ocean, which would need in addition to food etc, the vessels on top of that. I can;t think of any similar mass movement of people by sea in the short time frame implied., over that kind of distance. Even the famous Sea Peoples in Egypt seem to have been a phenomenon spread over at least a century, not a giant fleet floating into town. And the Sea Peoples would have had it a lot easier - a much shorter distance to travel and coming from the Mediterranean zone around Anatolia or the Aegean, with numerous points on land to rest and replenish on the way. If there is any other similar seaborne mass movement over that distance, in such a short time frame before the modern era, it would be good to know about. The pattern that seems more likely is of smaller groups to the Americas spread out over an extended period, and spread out over a large range, not a giant fleet floating into town.
And the size and population of Timbuktu was twice that of London but even earlier yet at about 300b.c the site of Timbuktu was 4 times the size of London and could rival any city in Mesopotamia of that era. the student population alone stood at 20,000 now this is just one city in that vast empire,hard to imagine Timbuktu as it was in yesteryears now dusty and impoverished.
Hmm, agreed. If you have any sources on that city size it would be great, as it contradicts those who claim significant Africa urbanization was non-existent. I ran into something on China the other day- and it says the Chinese urbanization pattern is not a clone of some typical European ones with central hierarchies and central control. African urbanization likewise need not slavishly follow an European model.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Well you have to look-up this archeologist but I came across this some yrs ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9LkpJdll9A here is a short clip. The thing is Mali empire could have covered the sea peoples many times over,remember the epicenter of the Sea peoples would have been Troy a mere city state in comparison to Mali which as was pointed out an empire.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova your problem is that you can't believe anything that claims that Africans had nautical experience, and a well developed boat technology.
The best source Mande relations after Abubakari's voyage remains Harold G. Lawrence, Mandinga Voyages Across the Atlantic", in African Presence in Early America, (Ed.) by Ivan van Sertima. In this paper Lawrence does a great job of explaining the influence of the Manding people in Meso-America and Mexico. In relation to Umari's story about Abubakari he noted:
As you can see Abubakari took a huge navy with him when he sailed to Brazil.
Lawrence also gives an overview of other examples of Africans massing large numbers of ships to carry out an expedition.
As you can see amassing a navy of first 400 and then 2000, was not a difficult task for West African rulers.
2) Spanish mention of Tribes from South America to the American Southwest named Mande;
I am not going to waste may time talking about Mande tribes we have went over this forum many time.
just need a reference to a Spanish document where they mention a tribe in South American named Mande
Rafinesque in “Primitive Black nations talked about the Jaras?Jarra/Diara people and the Cuana/ Cuna. J.H. Steward mentioned the fact that a major Cuna tribe was the Mandingas.
Bourbourg, Popul-Vuh: le livre Sacre et les Mythes de l”Antiquite Americaine (Paris, 1861, pg.CCIII) Mentioned the Mande tribes called Caracole< Sarakole> Caragoli of Haiti and the Lesser Antille. He also mentions , I believe the Mangipas.
Europeans knew about the Americas due to their contacts with West Africans. These Africans helped them discover the Americas. Balboa,found numerous African communities in Central America and Mexico. Gumilla, also found their presence on the shores of the Orinoco river of Venezuela at the commencement of the 16th Century. The largest settlement of Blacks had moved from Brazil to Darien, Panama according to Amerindian tradition
. The majority of Black tribes according to Quatrefages in The Human Species, include the Choco, Manabis, Yaruras, Guarani, Charruas, Othomi (Otomi), Yamassi, Tzendal/Chontal, the Mandinga (a member of the Cunan group of Mexico), the Blacks of Quareca and numerous tribes along the Orinoco river in Venezuela and the Isthmus of Darien; not to mention the Black tribes of the United States southwest including a tribe reported by Cabeza de Vaca called Mandicas (Mandinka).
Panama remained a strong base for the Manding in the Americas. From Panama the Manding, migrated northward into Honduras where they were known , according to H.G. Lawrence under the clan names Jara and Guaba and southward to the province of Choco, here they were called Chuana or Guana. This corresponds to the Sarakole (Soninke) tribe, called "Caracoles", by the Spanish, and the Mandinga Jara/Diara and Kaba/Kabba clans. The Jara and the Guaba Manding lived in Honduras.
De Vaca said that one of these ethnic groups was named Mendicas . This name is almost identical to the word Mandinka (Malinke), the name of one of the Manding speaking people.
"Further controversy was generated by a mass resignation of the editorial board of one of the company's journals, Advances in Anthropology, in 2014. According to the former editor-in-chief, Fatimah Jackson, it was motivated by failures to include the editorial board in the journal's review process, and by "consistent and flagrant unethical breaches by the editorial staff in China, for whom publishing the journal "was only about making money."
Lol. This is who printed Clyde's above referenced paper... not even a proper peer-review editorial.
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
Yes, many have drawn the same conclusion and it is true but
Do you think you can focus in on details of Clyde's particular propositions you disagree with rather than attacking the man himself.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
[Personal insult deleted this time, next insult I will delete your entire post]
Africans reached the Americas but not Mauritius, or any other island close to them?
[ 23. April 2015, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
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They thoroughly have debunked all of Clyde's claims about the Americas.
[And what about Clyde's rebuttals to Montellano ES is full of them yet you biasedly assume Montellano is always correct. Why?]
He does not mention any of my work except in one of his papers. Montellano spent his time attacking Ivan van Sertima. He may have mentioned me in maybe one sentence. One sentence does not debunk anyone. Moreover, if he has debunked my work why doesn't it appear in a "peer reviewed " journal so we can debate the issue. Now cite the publications where he debunks my work.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Would a successful colony on Abubakari II's scale ship America's products, produce, and natural resources to Mali empire? I'd think so. But it looks like Mali never heard from him again unless they were keeping it a trade secret.
... Tukuler can not accept Abubakari's discovery of America because you have been brainwashed to believe Africans lack the ability as navigators and boat builders.
Whoa! Low blow!! Direct quote me saying such drivel. You can't.
I have ten years of postings including Abubakri's great feat (I agree with Cardova that the numbers are inflated) and on African nautical know how, even destruction of Euro craft by Senegalese marines.
Then here you come along telling a lie to boost a preach to the choir approach unworthy of academic notice.
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Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
[Personal insult deleted this time, next insult I will delete your entire post]
Africans reached the Americas but not Mauritius, or any other island close to them?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Mauritius, St. Helena, Seychelles, Cape Verde, and Sao Tome and Principe were first settled by Europeans. When Europeans arrived, all these islands (and others) were empty and no archaeology supports anyone else being there.
Madagascar was first occupied by Austronesians, not Africans.
And here's what the natives of the Canaries looked like -
Not exactly what you would call "black".
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posted
The Spanish/Portugese described and depicted the natives of Canaries, light skinned, basically no different than their own complexion (an olive or 'moderate white'):
"In the Chronicles of the Conquest of the Canaries, the colour of the skin of the inhabitants of the greater parts of the islands of the western group [which Berthelot regards as of the dominant Guanche type] is described as moderately white." (ethnografria y anales e lae conquita de las ila canarias santa cruz de teneriffe, p. 239)
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posted
You are really stupid aren't you? You said that "Africans" never reached these places. I said yes they did. Now you are saying "blacks" did not. Are you really that stupid? First off, get up to speed with genetics. The Indigenees of the Canary Islands are AFRICANS. They carry the same PN2 as me. They may be lighter but they are Africans. As they should be. Same as Indigenees of North Africa. Unlike some people here that do not believe it but Berbers are Africans. They group with Africans STR and lineage. Same as people's of YEMEN some islands in the Med Sea. Madagascar is peopled by African and South Asia lineage. aDNA of Iberia from the pre-historical times is filled with mtDNA L. So, grow some brains or STFU if you don't know what you are talking about.
Oh! The Cape Verde carry African lines that are unique to the island implying they were occupied pre-historical times.
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posted
aDNA is going to make Liars out of "historians" . Lol. If fact science is going to make liars of European historians.
You do know some of us smarter ones have gone beyond picture spamming to make a point.
Just so you know. Tunisians are one of the purest of Africans carry virtually ZERO European AIM, but is one of the lightest colored Africans. Tic! Toc! Of course some may prefer to call themselves "Europeans" . They don't know any better. Mentally and pschological beaten down, need to be on the side if their modern Conquerors. Some of us are like that.
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posted
These are BERBERS.STOP STEALING AFRICAN HISTORY with LIES!!!
Darker and same facial structure. Southern Libya. Ladies center and left in the photo
Those artistic pics you psoted are NOT Berbers.
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posted
All those islands I listed were first settled by Europeans, this includes Cape Verde:
"The discovers of Cape Verde, the Portuguese, described the islands upon their arrival in 1456 as “completely uninhabited.” In any case, there is still no evidence of any human life before the descoberta."
No one knows the origin of the Guanches, nor their language, it is not known if they were African migrants. All I was pointing out is that whoever they were - they were light/white skinned.
Guanche skulls also closely resemble modern European, not African populations:
"The Guanche skulls as a whole are unlike those of modern European Mediterraneans, and resemble northern European series most closely, especially those in which a brachycephalic element is present, as in Burgundian and Alemanni series." (Coon, 1939)
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posted
Am sorry, I forgot, you don't believe in genetics. It doesn't matter what genetic research has shown. Canary Islanders are Europeans. Berbers are Europeans even if they carry PN2 and the geographic STR cluster them as NEGROIDS.
I don't believe any genetic or scientific journal that shows Cape Verde was probably occupied by Africans since pre-historical times. (Insert sarcasm). Burying my head in the sand.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Tukler says: Whoa! Low blow!! Direct quote me saying such drivel. You can't.
I have ten years of postings including Abubakri's great feat (I agree with Cardova that the numbers are inflated) and on African nautical know how, even destruction of Euro craft by Senegalese marines.
Then here you come along telling a lie to boost a preach to the choir approach unworthy of academic notice.
Indeed. All that roorag about being "afraid of the white man" is compleat BS. Have we ever shirked from taking on any and all Eurocentric comers around here, or on the web? Sheeyit... We could have gotten a lot further without such dreck. I for one would be overjoyed to have solid data on Bakr's voyage, and that's the concern, to be on solid ground with this stuff. But let's move on.
PS: ^^where is this source above from again?
My query relates not only numbers but the oceanic voyage with said numbers. The numbers mentioned above talk about INLAND vessels, and going relatively moderate distances down/upriver with a variety of stopping points. But an expedition of 80,000 spanning over 4000 miles of trackless ocean (storms included) is not quite the same. Furthermore Clyde in another thread claims that the Malians landed in Brazil but has produced very little substantial evidence of this reputed massive landing, only scattered fragments, and speculation.
Absent substantial evidence from West Africa as to the departure of the massive force, and arrival in the Americas of this massive host of Africans into Brazil or where ever) I am more inclined to see any voyages as smaller scale expeditions, spread out over time. The 3000 canoes mustered could well have been for an inland operation, for which there is ample precedent in the archaeological record. We welcome evidence put on the table, not talk about "the white man."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Tukler says: Whoa! Low blow!! Direct quote me saying such drivel. You can't.
I have ten years of postings including Abubakri's great feat (I agree with Cardova that the numbers are inflated) and on African nautical know how, even destruction of Euro craft by Senegalese marines.
Then here you come along telling a lie to boost a preach to the choir approach unworthy of academic notice.
Indeed. All that roorag about being "afraid of the white man" is compleat BS. Have we ever shirked from taking on any and all Eurocentric comers around here, or on the web? Sheeyit... We could have gotten a lot further without such dreck. I for one would be overjoyed to have solid data on Bakr's voyage, and that's the concern, to be on solid ground with this stuff. But let's move on.
PS: ^^where is this source above from again?
My query relates not only numbers but the oceanic voyage with said numbers. The numbers mentioned above talk about INLAND vessels, and going relatively moderate distances down/upriver with a variety of stopping points. But an expedition of 80,000 spanning over 4000 miles of trackless ocean (storms included) is not quite the same. Furthermore Clyde in another thread claims that the Malians landed in Brazil but has produced very little substantial evidence of this reputed massive landing, only scattered fragments, and speculation.
Absent substantial evidence from West Africa as to the departure of the massive force, and arrival in the Americas of this massive host of Africans into Brazil or where ever) I am more inclined to see any voyages as smaller scale expeditions, spread out over time. The 3000 canoes mustered could well have been for an inland operation, for which there is ample precedent in the archaeological record. We welcome evidence put on the table, not talk about "the white man."
Europeans learned about America from their travels along the West coast of Africa.Vasco da Gama, is said to have found out information concerning the West Indies from Ahmad b. Majid, of West Africa (Bazan, 1967). .
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
.
. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
posted
OK, fair enough, I accept that you have put some info on the floor that should be considered. I still lean towards a more spread out pattern of smaller expeditions over years. Even the famous Chinese Admiral Cheng Ho in his 7 voyages seldom had a fleet larger than 350 ships, and these were big ocean going junks, and even his voyages wee spread out over almost 30 years- from 1405 to 1433.
Nevertheless, I am not just trying to be negative on possibility. I will add the following to the knowledge pool which will actually strengthen you case somewhat, as far as technical feasibility. Says one reference on the canoes:
"The Songhai "kanta" could carry up to 30 tons of goods, i.e. the load capacity of 1,000 men, 200 camels, 300 cattle or a flotilla of 20 regular canoes (Mauny 1961). Some of these boats had an even greater load capacity of 50 to 80 tons (Tvmowski, 1967)" --Inge Tvedten, Bjorn Hersoug. 1992. Fishing for Development: small -scale fisheries in Africa. 57.
^^Based on the kanta loadouts above at a moderate 30 tons per ship, one can see the Africans had the muscle to move men and material, once the vessels could be adapted for oceanic travel. The picture above is of a war canoe. Most likely if configured for long distance use it would have less men needed for rowers, and would need some sort of sails. What do you have as far as sailing technology in the region around this time?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: OK, fair enough, I accept that you have put some info on the floor that should be considered. I still lean towards a more spread out pattern of smaller expeditions over years. Even the famous Chinese Admiral Cheng Ho in his 7 voyages seldom had a fleet larger than 350 ships, and these were big ocean going junks, and even his voyages wee spread out over almost 30 years- from 1405 to 1433.
Nevertheless, I am not just trying to be negative on possibility. I will add the following to the knowledge pool which will actually strengthen you case somewhat, as far as technical feasibility. Says one reference on the canoes:
"The Songhai "kanta" could carry up to 30 tons of goods, i.e. the load capacity of 1,000 men, 200 camels, 300 cattle or a flotilla of 20 regular canoes (Mauny 1961). Some of these boats had an even greater load capacity of 50 to 80 tons (Tvmowski, 1967)" --Inge Tvedten, Bjorn Hersoug. 1992. Fishing for Development: small -scale fisheries in Africa. 57.
^^Based on the kanta loadouts above at a moderate 30 tons per ship, one can see the Africans had the muscle to move men and material, once the vessels could be adapted for oceanic travel. The picture above is of a war canoe. Most likely if configured for long distance use it would have less men needed for rowers, and would need some sort of sails. What do you have as far as sailing technology in the region around this time?
The first thing you should do is stop comparing cultural traditions.
Cheng Ho just directed a trade that was already created in South China by the Black Yueh tribes. The Shang literature makes it clear that the Yueh and other people living in Southern China possessed watercraft (Ling, 1970).
In the Shang Oracle writing the term for boat was ba, and outrigger canoe (two canoes connected together) was fang (Ling, 1970). The double canoe was popular in Fiji up to 1913 (Ling, 1970). The Shang term for boat ba (fa), agrees with the Polynesian words for boat pahi, and pae. The Yin or Polynesian type boat is associated with the Austronesian speakers (Chang, 1967; Winters, 1986).
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posted
Did "Africans" have the ability to sail? What a stupid questions. How the first AMH reach Iberia, Sardinia, Arabia, Canary, Cape Verde/ Some as much as 40,000ya.
Lying Europeans trying to steal African PN2 history!!!
Real Berbers, related to Canary Islanders
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Bottomline: de Viladestes 1413 map depicts a veiled black skinned camel rider clearly labeled Rex Bubeder.
This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
From the Cresques who taught de Viladestes "All this region is occupied by people who veil their mouths; one only sees their eyes. They live in tents and have caravans of camels. There are also beasts called Lemp from the skins of which they make fine shields."
Next to de Viladestes black skinned veiled camel rider.
P2 * Lemtuna from lemp * Kel Tagelmoust = People of the Veil
Both in the Cresques text next to the unnamed pink skinned veiled camel rider.
P1 + P2 = C
C *Simple deduction.
This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
(1)Amir of (2)al~Murabitun (3)Sanhadja (4)confederacy written to refute the clowny conception that veiled black camel rider is (1)Mansa of the (2)Mali (3)Mandingo (4)empire
Upholding African studies through logic and background in African studies and related disciplines to construct a logical analysis. The joker can only mine data and mindlessly post it without even a semblance of independent thought. ES is not primary schooling!
N E X T ! ! !Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Did "Africans" have the ability to sail? What a stupid questions. How the first AMH reach Iberia, Sardinia, Arabia, Canary, Cape Verde/ Some as much as 40,000ya.
Lying Europeans trying to steal African PN2 history!!!
Real Berbers, related to Canary Islanders
Right on,
A centuries-old Guanche mummy from the Canary Islands is seen at the Anthropology Museum in Madrid August 17, 2006. Photo by Susana Vera
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
What info do you have on African sailing technology at around the time of the proposed voyages? I noted above that loadouts at 30 tons per vessel are documented. This loadout centers on vessels for inland, riverain travel, but with a 30 ton load, several ships could move enough material to make up a fair tonnage fleet. What's on hand as to the propulsion side?
Originally posted by xyyman: Did "Africans" have the ability to sail? What a stupid questions. How the first AMH reach Iberia, Sardinia, Arabia, Canary, Cape Verde/ Some as much as 40,000ya.
Can you recap or list a few refs on movement times and locations via sea?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If only we had a better description rather than just the observation of Upper Guinea craft Portuguese saw in the Atlantic.
Research on trade between the two Cape Verde (island <-> coast) may yield some clues.
I've heard but can't vet that retooled river vessels were used on the high sea.
posted
The link in the OP is dead... But I have been researching this topic as of lately. It seems like the OP does not come on here anymore as I wanted to as him a certain question, but it seems Tukuler knows his stuff on this subject too.
@Tukuler I have a PM I want to send you.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Europeans learned about America from their travels along the West coast of Africa.Vasco da Gama, is said to have found out information concerning the West Indies from Ahmad b. Majid, of West Africa (Bazan, 1967). .
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
.
.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
.
. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
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