Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Tired of a lotta "Berber" bullshit and the usual pic spam so here's the iMazighen not usually seen but of much less very recent Euro mommy matriline. But not even the dominantly Euro admixed coastals have uniparentals, autosomes, AIMs, etc., that the Germanic peoples have. Not to mention the Vandal men were mostly shipped off to Asia Minor some damn where after conscripted into the Byzantine army though some few holed up in the Djur Djura.
Africa | A Berber woman dressed for the celebration of Moussem. | Location: Tarhjijt, Morrocco. Image credit Oliver Martel
A Berber woman wears her prized silver jewelry at a friend’s wedding. Akka, Morocco
As I've said long ago, ancient North Africa had its own type of black people who were not Nilotic Sudanic or any other region's phenotype of black. They are the people today's "Berbers" come from. There is no one way to look "Berber" and the heavily admixed numerically dominant coastals are not representative of the autochthones.
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posted
prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth that it means a white caucasian european face.
None of this is to deny the fact of Euro admix in "Berbers" and those of that phenotype who are off white or near white or damn well may as well be white.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
But, they did live in cave activities for thousands of years prior to 12,000 years ago in at Magreb and there was climatic change, did you know that?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
This nonsense by you has been debunked so many times, that this remark simply is way too funny.
But to answer your question: alleles! And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South. And this is what Tukuler is showing and explaining.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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One cannot assume which type is earliest in the Maghreb
Can you also tell the ethnic background and topological origin of each of the people, you've posted? Or did you just simply scrapped images from the Internet not knowing anything about the subject of ethnographics?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The pictures above are of Moroccan "Berbers" from Ait Khabbash and Atlas Mountains where we find many descendants of the original North African Blacks. They also include many Tuareg. These "Berbers" are recognized as Negroes.
Let's look at the people who are identified as Berbers and passed off by Euronuts as Egyptians. These Berbers as recognized by Diop of Germanic back ground .
The Amazigh like the Kabyle berbers are Caucasoid:
posted
Flip flopping again??!!... Quote [------ Tired of a lotta "Berber" bullshit and the usual pic spam so here's the iMazighen not usually seen but of much less very recent Euro mommy matriline. [------- Short memory- H1 Arabia, H3 North African
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
Folks who try and claim that a couple of remains from some odd point on some map have "Eurasian" genes are talking foolishness. Even if those remains do show "Eurasian" admixture that does not mean that all of North Africa from the straights of Gibraltar down to Southern Libya was magically repopulated 10,000 years ago with blonde haired, brown haired, or any other haired kind of white people. It is nonsense and a lie.
At no point in time historically have black people been absent from North Africa. That is bull sh*t and most anthropologists know it.
Now that just covers the 'general' anthropology of North Africa. But more specifically in terms of language and culture, Berber is a purely African phenomenon. Berber is a language and culture and not a gene. It was purely developed in Africa among black African populations. Later migrations have adopted that culture in parts of North Africa but none of those migrations represent an import of Berber language or culture INTO Africa.
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And round and round we go….so …what is the matrinial line? The male line is older than Bantus in Africa. The language group is purely African even older than the Bantus linguitsic line.
So!....Matrilinial line?
Signed..the racist
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posted
deleted. Got it.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I stand corrected...3 1/2. ... are on board
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
Folks who try and claim that a couple of remains from some odd point on some map have "Eurasian" genes are talking foolishness. Even if those remains do show "Eurasian" admixture that does not mean that all of North Africa from the straights of Gibraltar down to Southern Libya was magically repopulated 10,000 years ago with blonde haired, brown haired, or any other haired kind of white people. It is nonsense and a lie.
At no point in time historically have black people been absent from North Africa. That is bull sh*t and most anthropologists know it.
Now that just covers the 'general' anthropology of North Africa. But more specifically in terms of language and culture, Berber is a purely African phenomenon. Berber is a language and culture and not a gene. It was purely developed in Africa among black African populations. Later migrations have adopted that culture in parts of North Africa but none of those migrations represent an import of Berber language or culture INTO Africa.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
this is political dogma
The Iberomaurusian culture lasts for about 10,000 years and ended about 10,000 years ago
DNA of Iberomaurusian remains in Morocco 12kya show high frequencies of Eurasian mtDNA, also some samples possibly African Their Y DNA is unknown Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people
It is unknown if they are "invaders" or simply people who migrated to the region
skeletons were recovered from Grotte des Pigeons, a cave system at Taforalt, Morocco
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
__________________________________
This hunter gather population was replaced by another hunter gatherer population of more gracile proportions called Capsian
It is unknown to what extent if any modern Maghreb popualtions have any ancestry linked to either of these green period Sahara groups beacause after the Capsian
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
SO WHY EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT ???
These people came and went in a small sliver of land near the coast of North Africa, so what ???
Another period of human settlement in the Maghreb is around 800 BC, some small Greek settlements but mainly the Phoenician traders who came from what is now the Lebanon region, their largest city , Carthage However the Egyptians also record foreign "Sea People" in the region around 1200 BC, 400 years earlier
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC. Classical Period. Grave marker depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus). Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York
So why even mention Vandals?
They didn't even take over Tunisia from the Cartheginians. The Romans did that. the Roman province of Africa, which was a major breadbasket of the Empire. Later, Arabs and Turks enter the region
^^^ Roman provinces in North African hundreds of years before the Vandals
was it like 3 Roman guys in command of huge masses of black Africans ? Look into it, Roman records
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people Alaska!!??? Really?
Source?
• Article: Climate and anthropometric variations in Europe and the Mediterranean area. E Crognier [Show abstract] [Hide abstract] ABSTRACT: Fourteen anthropometric measurements collected among 85 European, North African and Middle Eastern populations have been studied with respect to eight climatic variables through zero-order correlations and multiple stepwise regressions. The average contribution of climate to the total variance of physical features between populations is 35%. The most important correlations of postcranial body measurements and nasal index are with the extremes of heat and dryness, while the head measurements are more sensitive to extremes of cold and moisture. The overall results indicate that these populations follow the zoological rules of Bergmann and Allen. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people Alaska!!??? Really?
Source?
• Article: Climate and anthropometric variations in Europe and the Mediterranean area. E Crognier [Show abstract] [Hide abstract] ABSTRACT: Fourteen anthropometric measurements collected among 85 European, North African and Middle Eastern populations have been studied with respect to eight climatic variables through zero-order correlations and multiple stepwise regressions. The average contribution of climate to the total variance of physical features between populations is 35%. The most important correlations of postcranial body measurements and nasal index are with the extremes of heat and dryness, while the head measurements are more sensitive to extremes of cold and moisture. The overall results indicate that these populations follow the zoological rules of Bergmann and Allen.
I'm sorry I have to keep reposting stuff I have posted so many time before Son of Ra and xyyman should know what I'm talking about now
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Abstract The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad.Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.
Look at the chart above
Ain Dokhara is a later Capsian sample (North Africa)
El Wad ( Natufian, Israel)
Afalou (Mechta-Afalou) or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa (Ibero-Maurusian culture). They were replaced by the Capisans
As we can see on the dendogram the Afalou's cold adpated limb ratios are closer to Alaskans (Koniag and Ipiutak) and Europeans. The Afalou are at the extreme opposite from the Jebel Sahaba a 13K yo cemetary in Sudan who cluster with the more tropical Africans. The Afalou seem to be in between Alaskan and European limb proportions
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posted
^^^ This chart was posted several times. I don't understand why xyyman could ask that question again knowing he saw it many times over.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
But, they did live in cave activities for thousands of years prior to 12,000 years ago in at Magreb and there was climatic change, did you know that?
Isn't she talking about the Henn study.
I have summed up the corresponding alleles. These alleles were already present in older indigenous African populations, this is why I called it laughable. That person will keep on ranting till the end of days. But will never show objective material nor incoming industries. But we have shown out going industries.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people Alaska!!??? Really?
Source?
• Article: Climate and anthropometric variations in Europe and the Mediterranean area. E Crognier [Show abstract] [Hide abstract] ABSTRACT: Fourteen anthropometric measurements collected among 85 European, North African and Middle Eastern populations have been studied with respect to eight climatic variables through zero-order correlations and multiple stepwise regressions. The average contribution of climate to the total variance of physical features between populations is 35%. The most important correlations of postcranial body measurements and nasal index are with the extremes of heat and dryness, while the head measurements are more sensitive to extremes of cold and moisture. The overall results indicate that these populations follow the zoological rules of Bergmann and Allen.
I'm sorry I have to keep reposting stuff I have posted so many time before Son of Ra and xyyman should know what I'm talking about now
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Abstract The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad.Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.
Look at the chart above
Ain Dokhara is a later Capsian sample (North Africa)
El Wad ( Natufian, Israel)
Afalou (Mechta-Afalou) or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa (Ibero-Maurusian culture). They were replaced by the Capisans
As we can see on the dendogram the Afalou's cold adpated limb ratios are closer to Alaskans (Koniag and Ipiutak) and Europeans. The Afalou are at the extreme opposite from the Jebel Sahaba a 13K yo cemetary in Sudan who cluster with the more tropical Africans. The Afalou seem to be in between Alaskan and European limb proportions
You forgot to post about the climatic changes in the Magreb and how the people lived in cave activities. For thousands of years.
Next you'll claim the Afalou was Alaskan as well.
quote:
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
quote: Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
A centuries-old Guanche mummy from the Canary Islands is seen at the Anthropology Museum in Madrid August 17, 2006. Photo by Susana Vera
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Patrol said: And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South.
Indeed, and folks should also keep in mind that "sub-Saharan" people are the most diverse phenotypicaly and don;t need any "race mix" to explain say- narrow noses, or looser hair, or even brown skin. All such features are indigenous to sub-Saharan Africaand dont need any "wandering Caucasoids" or "Middle Easterners'...
Clyde said: The Amazigh like the Kabyle berbers are Caucasoid: Amazigh are identified by speaking Berber languages. 'Berber' is primarily a language category not a racial one. There are plenty of "black" Berbers around.
Those AT PRESENT near the temperate coast of the Medit have on average certain features like paler skin, but even in that region black Berbers are well in place.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Patrol said: And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South.
Indeed, and folks should also keep in mind that "sub-Saharan" people are the most diverse phenotypicaly and don;t need any "race mix" to explain say- narrow noses, or looser hair, or even brown skin. All such features are indigenous to sub-Saharan Africaand dont need any "wandering Caucasoids" or "Middle Easterners'...
This I agree but you need to be mixed with Eurasians to have Eurasian DNA like non-L MtDNA or F-descendant Y-DNA. You can't also pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. Same for clustering autosomally closer to Eurasians than to other Africans without admixtures.
In general, while maybe sometimes it doesn't always looks like it, especially when I mention current genetic and archaeological results, I'm not here to prove Ancient Egyptians were Africans no matter what, I'm here to determine it with science.
It's just that when I see AEians clustering with Great Lakes, Southern and West Africans autosomally as well as sporting E1b1a, I can't just ignore it, especially considering other archaeological/historical evidences.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: And round and round we go….so …what is the matrinial line? The male line is older than Bantus in Africa. The language group is purely African even older than the Bantus linguitsic line.
So!....Matrilinial line?
Signed..the racist
There is no one Berber languages
quote:
The Berber languages (native name: Tamazight) are the indigenous languages of North Africa west of the Nile. The Berber group is a member of the Afroasiatic language family. A relatively sparse population speaking a group of very closely related and similar languages and dialects extends across the Atlas Mountains, the Sahara, and the northern part of the Sahel in Morocco, Algeria, Niger, Mali, Tunisia, Libya, and the Siwa Oasis area of Egypt. There is a movement among speakers of the closely related Northern Berber languages to unite them into a single standard language.
The name Tamazight, which traditionally referred specifically to Central Morocco Tamazight, and is also used by the native speakers of Riff (Tarifit), is being increasingly used for this Standard Berber, or even for Berber as a whole. Its usage is less consistent in some areas like the Kabylia where locals call their language Taqbaylit rather than Tamazight. Due to the rising Berber cultural and political activism and its recent prominence in the North African media, the popularity of the term Tamazight made it known and recognizable by virtually every citizen in North Africa, including non-Berber speakers. Among the notable varieties of Berber are Central Morocco Tamazight, Riff, Shilha (Tashelhiyt), Kabylian (Taqbaylit), and the Tuareg dialect chain. The Berber languages have had a written tradition, on and off, for over 2,000 years, although the tradition has been frequently disrupted by various invasions. It was first written in the Tifinagh alphabet, still used by the Tuareg; the oldest dated inscription is from about 200 BC. Later, between about 1000 AD and 1500 AD, it was written in the Arabic alphabet; since the 20th century, it has often been written in the Latin alphabet, especially among the Kabylians.
As you can see there is not a single Berber language. Tuareg is recognized as a Berber language but it is closely related to Songhay.
Moreover, as recognized by the authors of this article the Tuareg language is probably the oldest. We have evidence that the Bantu language was recognized in the Egyptian language. The oldest Tuareg documents are written in Tifinagh alphabet. The Tifininagh inscriptions are very recent and have no relationship to the Libyco-Berber writing which is over 5ky old.
As a result, there is no way the Berber language is older than Bantu. I will ask you again provide proof of the antiquity of Berber languages vs Bantu.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Black Berbers have been replaced in many parts of Africa by Caucasian Berbers. For example, the original Riffians were Black now they are “white”. The man is called a Riff Berber "of the race of Guelia" (Mellila) in Morocco, in the early U.S. newspaper article.
The Chaoui?
Riffian?
Mozabites?
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black Berbers have been replaced in many parts of Africa by Caucasian Berbers.
Considering the aDNA results on some small numbers of Ibero-Maurisian remains. It seems indeed Berbers "replaced" in one way or another ancient black Africans called Aterians inhabiting the North African regions a very long time ago (not later than 10000BC). Coming from Iberia. Due to the lack of archeological data, the modality of that replacement is not clear yet. This is a very long time ago.
The current Berber populations are the products of such ancient populations (from Iberia) which eventually admixed with African populations (E-M35 carriers) and then went through some strong genetic drift events which modified their genetic profiles. Reducing dramatically their genetic diversity. Then they admixed with some other populations more recently like the Vandals, Romans, Arabs, etc.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Reminder to those who are not with it.
This photo essay is dedicated to the usually unseen aMazigh faces. This photo essay is not for the usual photo spam that shows only off white / near white / damn well may as well be white types of coastal known to be heavily admixed with Euros type of iMazigen. We already seen them ad nausea. Expand your mind. I dare to see how the other side looks. The autochthonous side who is dark just as the ancients described and not at all of SSA appearance.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
.
Who you think you playing with? Unlike others here, I will not entertain your questions until you do the same to mine.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
So what does your method reveal about say
* East Africa vs Tigara or * Pygmy vs EuroAmerican ?
By your method is Jebel Sahaba closer to * East Africa or * West Africa?
What is the meaning of branches on the same limb?
What is being measured as the distance between populations?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The way to determine the distance bewteen two populations on the above dendogram is to
start at the name of the first populaltion.
Then you follow the line path eminating from that name it like a mouse in a maze to the second popualation.
You can move in any direction along the path, up, down, backwards or forwards, whatever is the shortest distance from one population to the next.
Since the scale of this chart is horizontal you only record the distances of the horizontal movements.
When you put these horizontal segments together and measure them in total, that is the distance bewteen two populations
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
So Winters finally agrees that he original Berbers were African and not from Europe? If so, thats good.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
But when will he admit there was no 400 year Vandal rule of anywhere less lone the coastal Maghreb.
We know when the Vandals entered Africa and we know when their asses were kicked and they * were conscripted into the Byzantine army to fight in Eurasia somewhere * fled tail tucked between legs to kindred Goth controlled Europe * went on the lam hiding out in the Djur Djura, brrr, chill.
But don't expect an ideologue to submit to facts.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: So Winters finally agrees that he original Berbers were African and not from Europe? If so, thats good.
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
quote: Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
This translation of Egyptian discussed by F.J. Yurco, in his article on the Rameses III relief, in Egypt in Africa, (Ed.) Theorore Celenke (1996).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105). The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu. The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.
In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde
The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be charcteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these traits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
The term is Tjemehu , which replaced the term for Tehenu as I discussed above. It is the braid which makes it clear this personage was a Tehenu. It is the feathers that identify the first personage as a Meshwesh.
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it claim that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
posted
As you can see from the above the original Berbers did not live in Northwest Africa. The white Berbers who have always lived in Northwest Africa are of Vandal origin.
The original “Berber” lived near Egypt. The contemporary Berbers have nothing to do with the original Berbers. These Berbers, especially the Kabyle in most of North Africa and Siwa are the result of the Vandal invasion. That’s why these Berbers are white.
These Berbers did not come from East Africa. The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. They are descendants of the Vandals who formerly ruled Africa.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
The Black Berbers, on the other hand go back to the prehistoric period. The “white Berbers” have adopted aspects of their language but basically they remain “white”, but carry many Black genes.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Filibustering with **** got nothing to do with the topic. Typical. It's a photo essay of living aMazigh who retained the phenotype the ancients described them as having. What you know about that? You don't know nothing about that. You slinging the same old hash everybody's read over and over again for like 8 years already. Sheesh! People looking for a change. Aintcha got sense enough to come in out of the rain?
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: So Winters finally agrees that he original Berbers were African and not from Europe? If so, thats good.
Since the original Berbers lived in Libya, to best describe the Blacks in Northwest Africa you would have to know their tribal name. Most continue to live in Morocco especially the Atlas mountain region.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why repost what I already put up? What a waste of time and bandwidth. Ever had an original idea? Find and post pics of iMazighen with the least amount of post-Islam Euro admixture why don't you?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Flip flopping again??!!... Quote [------ Tired of a lotta "Berber" bullshit and the usual pic spam so here's the iMazighen not usually seen but of much less very recent Euro mommy matriline. [------- Short memory- H1 Arabia, H3 North African
Stuck on stupid again??!!...
What does 9k old H1'3 have to do say with the fact Procopius in 6th century and Arabic writers clear 'till the 14th century described thier Moors and Berbers as blacks?
Blacks in the * coast * tell * Atlas * pre-Sahara * Sahara.
Former incoming Holocene H1, of whatever colour, apparently was native black, in the Maghreb of all places, at the time of * Aeschylus (5th BCE) * Manilius (1st CE) * Procopius (6th CE) * al~Jahiz (9th CE) * ibn Butlan (11th CE) * et al heard, saw, and wrote of them.
Yes strays and pockets of 'whites' were also noticed. But it wasn't until the Caliphate, sultanate, beys, and pashas that coastal Maghreb complexion ran to pallour.
C'mon man you must know this ****.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
Clyde I don't get it The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
There facial feutuers can't be seen very well, in the images you've posted.
Let's look at some close ups.
Relief block with the heads of three Libyans Period: New Kingdom, Amarna Period Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Date: ca. 1353–1323 B.C. Geography: From Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Karnak Medium: Sandstone, paint Credit Line: Gift of Ernst E. Kofler, 1965 Accession Number: 65.100.1
quote:The sidelocks of the people on this relief block identify the men as Libyans. They need not be prisoners but could be members of the Egyptian army or envoys at a festival. As usual with sandstone relief pieces the block was part of a temple decoration at Karnak.
--metmuseum
This decorative tile from a royal palace made between 1184 and 1153 BC and found in Tell el-Yahudiyah shows a Libyan captive. --British Museum
limestone relief fragment was once part of a large composition showing a siege of a near eastern city. -- British Museum
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
Clyde I don't get it The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Before them were Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians and this is without even getting into green period prehistoric inhabitants
And after the Vandals, Arabs, Turks
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Furthermore if you look at google images search "berbers" there are plenty of berbers who look like Sahelians or West Africans as well as the ones who look more semi-Euroepan or Arab. This thread is a bit of a straw man
Look for yourself:
in google type "berbers" then hit the images tab
Tarhjijt, Morocco
The set up is this, above a woman who could easily pass for a typical lighter skinned African American of West African descent perhaps mixed with a lesser amount of Eurasian of some sort ?
So the idea being put forth is that because she is of the berber culture and is wearing the traditional clothing, she must be an original indigenous berber with deep prehistoric ancestry in the region
This is simply wishful thinking and projection
It might be true it might not be true you can't tell by simply looking at a photo !!!
We could take any AA, dress them in berber clothing and people would instantly assume they were a deep rooted original indigenous berber. But what if her primary ancestors were Sub Saharan? You can tell by looking they weren't ?? Stop it
Then we pretend the first foreigners in the region were Vandals. -so the simple duality is set up, the real berber looking AA and the fake berbers are the blonde haired blue eyed German invaders and the two have now mixed into semi fake people
But how do we know the above woman isn't primary a Sub Saharan African whose ancestors only migrated to the Maghreb 300 years ago or 2000 years ago but does not have deep North African ancestry? Do we have DNA testing on her ? Does she have high frequency of M81 (or any at all?? -we don't know) All we know is she has dope clothing and jewlery and lives in North Africa
this girl also has the spectacular outfit
But she looks different. Is she more or less deep rooted in North Africa
We don't know, WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, not even a DNA test for these individuals
How do we know that the below woman isn't the real ancient Maghrebian type with ancestry going back much further 10-20,000 years or more ago in the Maghreb ?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ait Mgoum from the Moroccan Atlas Valley of Roses
^^^ this is a post by Tukular in a thread called " Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit 'Archaic' Features"
So is this type similar to an archaic Moroccan Is this the original "berber" type, an indigenous North African with somewhat light brown skin and straight hair (but unique looking unlike a a West African or European or mix thereof) And she is a much more unusual type than "European" or "African" looking berbers that are common on the web
Or is the woman at the top of the post the real indigenous berber type?
Nobody knows.
Therefore this is an unscientific thread, simply the picking of photos arbitrarily, photos of modern day people (oddly mainly of attractive females) and deciding they are the "original berbers"
This is folly people
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
Clyde I don't get it The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.
Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.
The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.
The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.
Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.
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Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Reference: Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
this is political dogma
The Iberomaurusian culture lasts for about 10,000 years and ended about 10,000 years ago
DNA of Iberomaurusian remains in Morocco 12kya show high frequencies of Eurasian mtDNA, also some samples possibly African Their Y DNA is unknown Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people
It is unknown if they are "invaders" or simply people who migrated to the region
skeletons were recovered from Grotte des Pigeons, a cave system at Taforalt, Morocco
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
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This hunter gather population was replaced by another hunter gatherer population of more gracile proportions called Capsian
It is unknown to what extent if any modern Maghreb popualtions have any ancestry linked to either of these green period Sahara groups beacause after the Capsian
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
SO WHY EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT ???
These people came and went in a small sliver of land near the coast of North Africa, so what ???
Another period of human settlement in the Maghreb is around 800 BC, some small Greek settlements but mainly the Phoenician traders who came from what is now the Lebanon region, their largest city , Carthage However the Egyptians also record foreign "Sea People" in the region around 1200 BC, 400 years earlier
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC. Classical Period. Grave marker depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus). Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York
So why even mention Vandals?
They didn't even take over Tunisia from the Cartheginians. The Romans did that. the Roman province of Africa, which was a major breadbasket of the Empire. Later, Arabs and Turks enter the region
^^^ Roman provinces in North African hundreds of years before the Vandals
was it like 3 Roman guys in command of huge masses of black Africans ? Look into it, Roman records
I have no idea why you were showing Phoenicians?
Anyway, as I was saying about their cave activities.
Cemeteries and sedentism in the Epipalaeolithic of North Africa
quote:Grotte des Pigeons, a cave at Taforalt, north-east Morocco is a key archaeological site, with a long sequence of deposits spanning the Middle to Upper Palaeolithic.
The most recent occupants of this site were the Iberomaurusians. Iberomaurusian populations inhabited the Maghreb between 20,000 and 8000BP and are known from a series of archaeological sites close to Atlantic and Mediterranean coast.
Iberomaurusian skulls often reveal evidence for the deliberate removal of the two upper central incisors during adolescence or early adulthood.
quote: Dr Humphrey also speculated that these Pleistocene hunter-gatherers may have pulled out their own teeth.
Skeletons at Taforalt reveal that most people practiced tooth evulsion, whereby one or two healthy incisors were deliberately removed in late childhood or early adulthood. This would have been for cultural reasons, such as indicating group affiliation or as a rite of passage.
The same skills could have been used to extract diseased teeth and relieve dental pain.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?
Do they look like this
Seti I
___________________________
Or do they look like this:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
___________________^^^^
Fragment of glazed tile showing a Libyan captive From the palace of Ramesses III, Tell el-Yahudia, Egypt 20th Dynasty, around 1200 BC British Museum
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Patrol said: And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South.
Indeed, and folks should also keep in mind that "sub-Saharan" people are the most diverse phenotypicaly and don;t need any "race mix" to explain say- narrow noses, or looser hair, or even brown skin. All such features are indigenous to sub-Saharan Africaand dont need any "wandering Caucasoids" or "Middle Easterners'...
This I agree but you need to be mixed with Eurasians to have Eurasian DNA like non-L MtDNA or F-descendant Y-DNA. You can't also pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. Same for clustering autosomally closer to Eurasians than to other Africans without admixtures.
In general, while maybe sometimes it doesn't always looks like it, especially when I mention current genetic and archaeological results, I'm not here to prove Ancient Egyptians were Africans no matter what, I'm here to determine it with science.
It's just that when I see AEians clustering with Great Lakes, Southern and West Africans autosomally as well as sporting E1b1a, I can't just ignore it, especially considering other archaeological/historical evidences.
Indeed you can't pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. And that is just what they did. They picked and choose.
Because in aDNA we will find similar alleles in older clades.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autoso- mal and Y-chromosome markers.
--Frigi et al. Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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