posted
Reply to Davidski. Let see if he will delete it? Tic! Toc!
“””Ok. I am going to jump ahead here and go out on a limb and assume YOU have the study. But if they did autosomal studies as you said. I will assume they included populations of East Africa that carry these observed mtDNA BASAL Clades. And these same populations that are known to carry STRs related to the Amarnas and Rameses III and Man E. Like Great Lakes Africans like Kenyans, Sudanese, and of course the Socotris off the coast of Africa. Did they also include MODERN Near East. I don’t think they will …why? They are not indigenous to the Near East. Did they included modern Bedouins. Also we know Modern Europeans should not even be considered. Right? And do you know why? No H1 and H3!
My guest they use MButi or some distant SSA population to make the comparison. Not SSA populations close by.
Apples and apples… Davidski. Apples and Apples!””””
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Ok. Here is a question. And it's not a trick question. If the African contribution to the Y-Chromosome on these mummies was 0-3% A/B/E would we still argue thy are native?
Reasons for and against?
If their aDNA shows that they are mostly Eurasians and not local Northeast African then I would doubt the mummies would be native.
Also not carrying signature Northeast African paternal clades would also be a hint that they are not native. Just my 2 cents.
On the other hand, just because they are low in African paternal clades doesn't necessarily mean they can't be native.
There are two scenarios.
1) Outside Aristocratics in Egypt had no contact with native people, which is a historical fact.
2) Politically, they can't have large sums of L, if so it would destroy the narrative of surrounding populations, which is a political fact.
quote: Given the phylogeny, the frequency, and the diversity patterns observed in Africa for L1b, it is likely that this haplogroup arose in West Africa, from where it moved to other African and non-African locations.
There is a subclade of L1b defined by the transition A16289G (Fig. 2) and named here L1b1a2a, which could have originated later in East Africa (represented by three divergent sequences from Ethiopia: GenBank accession numbers EU092952, EU092942, and EU092950).
L1b1a2a could have moved from East Africa to the North downstream the Nile shores toward Egypt (represented by the complete genome EU092775).
The immediate ancestral node, L1b1a2 (Fig. 2), is represented by a single mitogenome observed in Israel (the Bedouin sequence EU092672) (Behar et al. 2008).
[...]
Let it sink in, let it marinate.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
To the newbies. That is why you need to be PATIENT. I knew they were skewing the data. I just need to wait and see what data they were putting forward to draw such a impossible conclusion that the New Kingdom AEians are not related to Sub-Saharan Africans after there was indisputable proof the Amarnas from the 18th Dynasty were undoubtedly SSA.
1. They did not use YDNA haplogroups as with Rameses III and Man-E instead they used MtDNA and assumed only mtDNA L1-L3 is SubSaharan. Hwne Keyans and Sudanese carry the basal Clades of many of the mtDNA released. Even in clades found in Arabia. The “southerners” carry the basal clade 2. For the SNPs they PLAYED the same ole frequency game. Which we know is ridiculous since IBD with a African source will also reflect the same result. The decipher they need to use TreeMix which they did not do 3. There were no European or major Maghrebian type mtDNA
So in short this paper proves that these NK AEians are heavily related to populations from the south like the Great Lakes of Africa.
Sergi and Coon are proven correct again?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
my response to Davidski. Lets see if he would delete it ..
"Calling me names (which has no impact on me) and not refuting what I am analyzing is a lame response proving that you have NOT looked that deeply at the data and you are like most everyone here. TALKING HEADS!! These mtDNA are Sub-Saharan Africans. And you cannot use FREQUENCY as a basis of analysis because of IBD. That why TreeMix is so important to show migration EVENTS. If you were as knowledgeable as you pretend to be YOU would know that."
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To the newbies. That is why you need to be PATIENT. I knew they were skewing the data. I just need to wait and see what data they were putting forward to draw such a impossible conclusion that the New Kingdom AEians are not related to Sub-Saharan Africans after there was indisputable proof the Amarnas from the 18th Dynasty were undoubtedly SSA.
1. They did not use YDNA haplogroups as with Rameses III and Man-E instead they used MtDNA and assumed only mtDNA L1-L3 is SubSaharan. Hwne Keyans and Sudanese carry the basal Clades of many of the mtDNA released. Even in clades found in Arabia. The “southerners” carry the basal clade 2. For the SNPs they PLAYED the same ole frequency game. Which we know is ridiculous since IBD with a African source will also reflect the same result. The decipher they need to use TreeMix which they did not do 3. There were no European or major Maghrebian type mtDNA
So in short this paper proves that these NK AEians are heavily related to populations from the south like the Great Lakes of Africa.
Sergi and Coon are proven correct again?
Let me ask you a question. A math test is given by a teacher and she tells students to "show their work". Below are two answers that BOTH come the same conclusion while one of them has incorrect internal calculation that gave them the conclusion. Are both answers correct if they conclude "21".
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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To those who can follow this stuff. What Davidski has done is MOVE THE GOALPOST. He has basically acknowledge the based on mtDNA these are Sub-Saharan Africans from Eastern Africa. So he switched to autosomal FREQUENCY to make the claim that these AEians are not SSA. But the problem is IBD with an African “source or origin” will display the same pattern. That is why using “frequency” is a waste of time. You need to dig deeper and use haplotypes, lineage or if using SNP frequency you need to use TreeMix to determine migration edges and/or events which this paper does NOT do…as far as I know. I remember when I argued with him about Mota and Villabruna with TreeMix he deleted that chart. Lol! That is the game these wackos play. Hide the data and deflect. Lol! Right Sweetness? What? You are in hiding now?
So Beyoku. Do you now know why lineage is so important? Also do you know “genome wide” includes STRs? That is why I know he is full of it. SMH
Quote by Davidski to my responses. ---- Quote 1 Obviously the paper includes genome-wide data you moron. The claim that modern Egyptians have 20% Sub-Saharan ancestry, while these ancient Egyptians have basically 0%, is based on genome-wide data, not mtDNA data.
The PCA and the f3 affinity and f3 admixture analyses in the slides are based on genome-wide SNP data. You can't run analyses like that without hundreds of thousands of SNP markers from the autosomes. The mtDNA haplogroups have nothing to do with that
And these f3 formal stats affinity and mixture analyses are based on allele frequencies in populations, including from ancient Egypt and all over Africa. Each dot represents a population.
Anyone has the twitter thing going on? I am not sure what he is showing me on twitter. I stay off that stuff. Too many wackos hitting me up.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I don't think I see any M1. To me that looks like it says M5.
Wish I had software to sharpen the image.
OK, honestly in zoom I thought I saw a 3! Anything but a 1 if compared to the T1 1.
Thanks for your view. Any suggestive source for that much M5?
Wish I had an image sharpener.
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posted
"Any suggestive source for that much M5?" Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! he is really a ditz!
BTW- thank Sage for posting that breakdown of mtDNAs. Cleared up a few things….no picture spamming needed.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Posted to Davidski Xyyman: “So…where does that leave us? To the newbies reading this and is trying to follow what is going on and what the data means. The mtDNA disclosed by the “stolen” screen shots if true show that the AEians are closely related to Sub-Sahara Africans on the Eastern side. And where is Egypt? yes, you guessed it. The Eastern part of Africa. Where did the AEians tell us they originated? Yes, up the Nile. Upper Egypt. To the south. Geography will never fail you. The MTDNA is exactly where it should be.
Now, SOME of you may remember your basics from High School biology. Birds and Bees and chromosomes etc. lol! Well yDNA remains unchanged from father to son unless there is a …well ….mutation or some hanky panky sneaking around affair thing was going on. …if you know what I mean. That also goes for the female line. Passed from mothers to daughter…and to sons but it stops there. So in other words. The matriarchal line was undoubtedly Sub-Saharan Africa and has absolute NO relation to modern Europeans and limited affiliation to Maghrebians . Now, Davidski chose to pin-point genome wide data as his “spin”. But anyone who did biology in school knows one does not get transmitted to the next generation without the other.
Nice try David..ski!”
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Remember Luyha is ancestral to Maghrebians while Maasai are ancestral to Egyptians…Henn et al. There is a clear separation at the Nile. The Nile has proven to be a barrier. That is why mtDNA H1 and H3 is not found along the Nile and into the Levant. But mtDNA L is found through-out Africa including the Levant and Maghreb into Anatolia. Sub-Saharan Africans commence entering North Africa since 9000BC. During the wet Phase of the Sahara. Kefi et al. .
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posted
The Maasai are not ancestral to ancient Egyptians. How in the world would you even know that the Maa people existed as a distinct group of Nilotics over 5, 000 years ago? I know Sudan and so I dismiss the notion that any of the Nilotic tribes in Sudan and their derivatives in East Africa are directly ancestral to the ancient Egyptians.
The ancient Egyptians were Afro-asiatic speakers and are ultimately derivatives of these people in North Sudan and the Horn.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Maasai are not ancestral to ancient Egyptians. How in the world would you even know that the Maa people existed as a distinct group of Nilotics over 5, 000 years ago? I know Sudan and so I dismiss the notion that any of the Nilotic tribes in Sudan and their derivatives in East Africa are directly ancestral to the ancient Egyptians.
The ancient Egyptians were Afro-asiatic speakers and are ultimately derivatives of these people in North Sudan and the Horn.
And you personally believe no Nilotic groups originated in North Sudan? Arguing that they did.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Maasai are not ancestral to ancient Egyptians. How in the world would you even know that the Maa people existed as a distinct group of Nilotics over 5, 000 years ago? I know Sudan and so I dismiss the notion that any of the Nilotic tribes in Sudan and their derivatives in East Africa are directly ancestral to the ancient Egyptians.
The ancient Egyptians were Afro-asiatic speakers and are ultimately derivatives of these people in North Sudan and the Horn.
And you personally believe no Nilotic groups originated in North Sudan? Arguing that they did.
I know that Nilotic tribes lived in the Gezira for at least 11, 000 years but that's much further South than Egypt. I'm now aware that Nilotics contributed to ancient Egypt in pastoralism and perhaps even people... but I take issue with the assertion that the ancient Egyptians were direct derivatives of Nilotics.
People from far North Sudan, the Horn, areas like Chad in the Sahel and Nilotics all contributed -- but not equally.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
WT...I am not a tribalist fool. I don't get you people. I am speaking strictly from what the data shows. I don't really care what beef goes on between some of these people. This is what the genetic data shows. Henn et al. READ IT! SMH.
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Maasai are not ancestral to ancient Egyptians. How in the world would you even know that the Maa people existed as a distinct group of Nilotics over 5, 000 years ago? I know Sudan and so I dismiss the notion that any of the Nilotic tribes in Sudan and their derivatives in East Africa are directly ancestral to the ancient Egyptians.
The ancient Egyptians were Afro-asiatic speakers and are ultimately derivatives of these people in North Sudan and the Horn.
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Swenet keeps referring to you as gramps, so why don't you better regulate your anger, like a proper elder? I merely pointed out that tribes like the Maasai may not have existed 5000 years ago, even though Nilotics contributed to ancient Egypt - especially in pastoralism.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ...
Eva Fernandez found mtDNA L in 8000year old Farmers from the Levant. ...
This is indeed very questionable.
quote:HAPLOGROUP L2A1
Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500 - 6000 BCE.[13]
—Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.
Oops, Fernandez 2006 has nothing on Tell Halalu. That's that Wiki.
She writes about them in 2008 specifying two L2a there at early levels. None recorded for the later 10 archaeological levels. Her 2005 thesis suggests L2a been in the Near East since the Paleolithic but died.
Oops Eva how could you forget your own work and miss reporting L2a among 8000 BCE Near Eastern Farmers? Your exclusion of samples H37 and H43 (10% of your 2008 reported Tell Halala mtDNA) is an example of sampling bias radically eliminating African presence frpm where in fact they once lived.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Eva Fernandez found mtDNA L in 8000year old Farmers from the Levant. ...
This is indeed very questionable.
quote:HAPLOGROUP L2A1
Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500 - 6000 BCE.[13]
—Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.
Oops, Fernandez 2006 has nothing on Tell Halalu. That's that Wiki.
She writes about them in 2008 specifying two L2a there at early levels. None recorded for the later 10 archaeological levels. Her 2005 thesis suggests L2a been in the Near East since the Paleolithic but died.
Oops Eva how could you forget your own work and miss reporting L2a among 8000 BCE Near Eastern Farmers? Your exclusion of samples H37 and H43 (10% of your 2008 reported Tell Halala mtDNA) is an example of sampling bias radically eliminating African presence frpm where in fact they once lived.
Thanks for the additional info.
Tell Halula [H3, H4, H45] 6800-6000 BC (H or K) 2 complete HVRI samples 16224C and one incomplete Fernández 2008
Tell Halula [H25] 6800-6000 BC (?) Incomplete HVRI with 16327T Fernández 2008
Tell Halula [H43] 6800-6000 BC (L2a1) Incomplete HVRI with 16261T, 16278T, 16294T, 16309G
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Yep! Any one can correct me. Maybe there is nothing there but when these geneticists are now starting out they seem more honest but when they make a name for themselves they tow-the-line.
Remember in her PhD thesis she observed 50% Sub-Saharan mtDNA in pre-historic Iberia
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Clyde said near to the bottom of page of the thread:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Bell Beaker and Yamnaya were probably also SSAs because they carried V88.
Toomas Kivisild1 (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page places V88 in ancient Europe during Beaker and Yamnaya times.This should not be surprising because the Bell Beaker culture probably began in Morocco.
Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
I contend that the Kivisild 2017 The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA does not say or imply V88 was in ancient Europe during Beaker and Yamnaya times. I have tried to explain it to Clyde a few times -or correct me if I am wrong
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I feel you man, yeah I wasnt here posting though I did lurk on the forum from time to time, and yeah I feel you alot of people didnt come on board with my abandoning the Term black. Like BBH said I wasnt here so the mocking came off the wrong way...
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Hey Bro If your going to be leaving the Forum could you PM me your Email or a way to keep in contact.
I'm not leaving this site permanently, yet. I was talking about wrapping up here, i.e. in this thread.
It's good I'm not posting here in this thread though. I'd just be mocking people for trying to peddle their BS over the years and trying to pretend these aDNA results are "business as usual". To the outside mocking people looks unwarranted but if you weren't here during all the discussions and pretty much the whole forum siding with retards like Amun Ra you wouldn't understand why certain people are mocked. I definitely understand where Beyoku is coming from. I'm just holding back because the outside won't understand and the people who sided with Amun Ra will lie vehemently about how they resisted certain facts that are coming to light now.
In 2013 me and Beyoku already embraced Basal Eurasian before there was a Basal Eurasian (Lazaridis popularized the concept and coined the term in 2014). There is a whole conversation on the FB group where we basically inferred it ourselves. When we came back here people would antagonize our posts and question our motives, like this is some sort of sect where you can have heretics and traitors. Now they want to hop on board and act like we're supposed to forget how they shitted on what we said. Look at an example of how people are shape shifting now:
^Charlie Bass always sided with Amun Ra and his pan-African politics. Now he wants to do the "knews it alls along" routine and distance himself from Amun Ra. If they'd just leave the fake routine behind I'd ignore it and say nothing. But if people are going to fake pretend then they shouldn't be surprised when Beyoku starts mocking the crap out of people. I'm definitely entertained by it and I'm not coming to anyone's defense.
Of course, you weren't here for years Jari, so you missed all of this and a lot isn't going to make sense. But I know you would see our posts back then as common sense. Because that's exactly what it is: common sense. Plus you had already publicly and formally (if not informally) moved away from the racial use of 'black' way before I did, so you always had that foundation.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: beyoku or Swenet can you go over to the other thread "R haplogroup come to whites in Two Ways " by Clyde Winters
Clyde said near to the bottom of page of the thread:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Bell Beaker and Yamnaya were probably also SSAs because they carried V88.
Toomas Kivisild1 (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page places V88 in ancient Europe during Beaker and Yamnaya times.This should not be surprising because the Bell Beaker culture probably began in Morocco.
Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
I contend that the Kivisild 2017 The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA does not say or imply V88 was in ancient Europe during Beaker and Yamnaya times. I have tried to explain it to Clyde a few times -or correct me if I am wrong
Kivisild (2017) noted:
quote:
Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
This quote makes it clear the V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara. This would place carriers of V88 among the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
Neolithic migrants into Europe from the Levant were also SSA. Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. If they were Sub-Saharan Africans in the Levant the Neolithic Europeans were also SSA.
Reference:
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
This quote makes it clear the V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara. This would place carriers of V88 among the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
No, "had relatives" does not mean "carried"
__________________
As for Turek:
quote:
Conclusion
So if the question is where and when the Bell Beaker (Maritime) style originates from, than we have to state that it was in first half of the Third Millennium BC between Estramadura (peninsula, near modern Lisbon, Portugal) and Morocco, but if the question is where was the Bell Beaker phenomenon created it needs to be said that it was before the Mid-third Millennium as result of communication between the Maritime style in Portugal and the western late Corded Ware groups.
--Origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon. The Moroccan connection191 Jan Turek
Clyde you had it wrong again and misread (intentionally?) this article is talking about a pottery tradition within Bell Beaker history that had to do with cultural communication between the regions, as is clear in the article this does not mean Bell Beakers originated in Morocco, so stop the nonsense
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posted
@Jari. Either way, it's good to have you and DJ back to restore some of the diversity in views that used to be here.
@Beyoku I assumed it was M1. But if that's not M1, I don't believe this sample's mtDNA extrapolates beyond Abusir or whatever larger pattern of affinity it's a part of (the Delta?). If not a full-fledged northeast African mtDNA profile, we're supposed to see at the VERY LEAST a small microcosm of northeast African lineages against a background of Eurasian lineages.
Even Taforalt had the U6 in addition to some candidate L3 lineage against a background of Eurasian mtDNAs. Canary Islands 'aDNA' also had a small microcosm of locally rooted mtDNAs and YDNAs. There should be some indication that a small, but intact, proportion of northeast African mtDNAs is still there. If that's not M1 on that slide (and you seem to be correct), one might as well entertain the possibility that this sample's L lineages came back to Africa à la E-V13.
@Sudaniya Follow his advice and read Henn et al 2012. You will see that he's making it all up. You should always take his offer to read his sources because 9 times out of 10 he's misrepresenting them. Maasai were simply provisionally chosen as representative of modern Egyptians' stereotypically African component in order to perform tests. They never meant to say that the Maasai were actually involved in modern Egypt, let alone Ancient Egypt.
quote:However, the “Luhya” ancestry is present at very low proportions, below 10% at k = 6 and below 5% at k = 8 and there is also “Luhya” ancestry detectable in Maasai populations. Thus, we chose the Maasai as the best ancestral sub-Saharan population for extant Egyptians.
—Henn et al 2012
Note also that Henn et al date this Maasai-like component to very recently, not, as he claims, something that represents a straightforward continuity with the African ancestry that was present in ancient Egypt. In this sense Henn et al are fully in line with the post-Roman increase of SSA ancestry mentioned in the upcoming aDNA study. Compare that with xyyman's intention to contradict the aDNA study using Henn et al. How can one contradict something using a source that says the same thing as something one criticizes? Don't even try to answer. It only makes sense to people like him.
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That's right. Back off your BS claim. you and Beyoku.
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posted
quote by Swenet:"one might as well entertain the possibility that this sample's L lineages came back to Africa à la E-V13"
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA! You are such a ditz like your buddy.
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Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
This quote makes it clear the V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara. This would place carriers of V88 among the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
No, "had relatives" does not mean "carried"
__________________
As for Turek:
quote:
Conclusion
So if the question is where and when the Bell Beaker (Maritime) style originates from, than we have to state that it was in first half of the Third Millennium BC between Estramadura (peninsula, near modern Lisbon, Portugal) and Morocco, but if the question is where was the Bell Beaker phenomenon created it needs to be said that it was before the Mid-third Millennium as result of communication between the Maritime style in Portugal and the western late Corded Ware groups.
--Origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon. The Moroccan connection191 Jan Turek
Clyde you had it wrong again and misread (intentionally?) this article is talking about a pottery tradition within Bell Beaker history that had to do with cultural communication between the regions, as is clear in the article this does not mean Bell Beakers originated in Morocco, so stop the nonsense
Stop making stuff up Stupid Euronut; archaeologists recognize shared pottery as evidence of a "family"connection.
For example, Archaeologists agree that Black and Red Ware (BRW) unearth on many South India sites are related to Dravidian speaking people. The BRW style has been found on the lower levels of Madurai and Tirukkampuliyur B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) made it clear that he believes that the BRW radiated from Nubia through Mesopotamia and Iran.
As a result, recognized shared pottery between cultures is evidence of a "family"connection.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
For the time being, before that paper comes out:
quote:
The corpus of material from Roman Egypt is one of the most fascinating in studying ancient Egypt’s funerary remains. However, with the exception of painted panel portraits on mummies of the period, much of this material has received little attention from academia and public alike.
The value of this publication, which condenses the author’s doctoral thesis, lies in its thorough analysis of often poorly-recorded material dispersed in museums throughout the world.
Riggs concentrates on the series of mummy cases, masks, shrouds, coffins and tomb paintings incorporating aspects of Greek and Roman art into traditional Egyptian burial forms. She analyses stylistic development in conjunction with other contemporary art forms, texts and funerary inscriptions in order to gain insight into the ethnicity, social status and religious beliefs of the populace.
Chapter One presents an overview of art and religion in Roman Egypt and an account of previous studies in the field. Riggs suggests that the amalgam of styles and motifs, formerly categorised as of mixed style and even considered degenerate by many, is due to a deliberate choice rather than any misunderstanding of Egyptian funerary art forms. She proposes that the use of more naturalistic portraiture and the depiction of contemporary clothing and hairstyles indicates a desire to perpetuate status and gender in the afterlife.
Chapter Two examines the concept of gender in funerary art and texts and relates the evidence from the Rhind Papyri, in which the deceased are associated with the funerary deities Osiris and Hathor, to groups of coffins from Kharga Oasis and Akhmim. These, too, portray the image of the deceased either idealised in Osiride form or naturalistically in contemporary dress, according to Hellenistic conventions. Despite the Hellenised mode of dress, the names of the deceased are Egyptian and derived from those of local divinities. Riggs therefore suggests that the purpose of the contemporary knotted garment worn
by females of the Akhmim Group is to ‘tie’ the image to Hathor, and that the dual styles emphasise the importance of perpetuating social status in death, as well as gender.
Chapter Three investigates this concept further in narrative scenes on a series of masks from Meir and in Funerary House 21 in the cemetery of Tuna el-Gebel, in which the deceased is similarly attired. Riggs equates the narrative to stages in the deceased’s journey through death to transfiguration.
Her analysis of the accompanying inscriptions reveals a predominance of now Greek versions of Egyptian names, implying a bilingual society. The question of cultural identity is further investigated in relation to images of the deceased in the style of orator-type portraits on the lids of wooden coffins from Abusir el-Meleq, and on the ‘Psychopomp’ shrouds from Saqqara. Riggs compares the image to contemporary commemorative sculpture and suggests that the intention may be to represent the deceased as a cult image. The Psychopomp shrouds portray the deceased within a portal, which Riggs interprets as representing the threshold between life and transfiguration.
She develops this theory in a discussion of images on tombs of the period at Akhmim and in the Dakhla Oasis where the orator-style image of the deceased alludes both to his cult status and his transition to the afterlife.
Chapter Four is dedicated to the funerary material from the Theban area, which retained its importance as a religious centre into the Roman Period. Although more conservative than art forms from other areas, the material does incorporate some new features. The traditional image of the goddess Nut is present on coffins of the Soter Group, but she is now clothed in contemporary costume and jewellery, and naturalistic portraiture is combined with traditional native imagery on mummy masks from Deir el- Bahri. Riggs’ detailed study of accompanying inscriptions and texts reveals that the deceased were members of local élites, were probably bilingual and devotees of local cults.
She concludes that in the Roman Period the concept of maintaining one’s status and gender into the afterlife became as important as the preservation of the corpse and transfiguration of the deceased. Far from being ‘degenerate’, the material manifests that patrons exercised choice as to how they wished to be depicted in death, being able to draw upon the characteristics of three artistic traditions.
The text is supplemented by numerous photographs, drawings and plates, together with an invaluable Appendix and Register of Museums. This study succeeds in placing the material in its rightful place as a fine example of what happens when three great artistic traditions meet and interact.
— Christina Riggs
The Beautiful Burial in Roman Egypt: Art, Identity and Funerary Religion (2005)
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The state of looting in Abu Sir Al-Maleq in Beni Suef has reached an alarming level
Daily News Egypt June 5, 2013
By Monica Hanna and Salima Ikram
The looting of antiquities sites, both urban and rural, is continuing throughout Egypt, contributing to the dramatic loss of the country’s heritage. Unfortunately, with police and military presence at archaeological and urban sites still insufficient, there is no one to stop the looting.
The increase in looting is allied to the worsening economic situation in Egypt, coupled with the lack of security. People still think that pharaonic sites are filled with gold and treasures, just waiting to be dug up, so now, with no one to stop them, more people are looking for the nearest place where they can go dig for gold, then other artefacts that they can sell for immediate revenue.
This idea that gold is readily available is an old and mistaken one; few pharaonic era tombs had a lot of gold, and most of those had been robbed at least 200 years ago, if not longer.
Recently, sites in Beni Suef in particular have suffered acutely from looters; in fact, if one asks to rent a car to go to Beni Suef, the drivers casually ask, “Oh, you are going to buy antiquities. I know someone who can help you,” as we know from personal experience. Abu Sir Al-Maleq is now considered the best place to buy “coloured sarcophagi”.
In most of the public cafés in the city centre, and particularly in Al-Wasta, antiquities dealing is a common daily practice. All one has to do is to sit in a café, look like a stranger and wait to be approached by someone who has artefacts for sale. Much of this material is probably coming from two important sites in the area, namely Al-Hiba and Abu Sir Al-Maleq.
The police has reported several cases of illicit digging at both sites. The modern village of Abu Sir Al-Maleq is of approximately 20,000 inhabitants, according to the 2006 national consensus, and lies about 10 km from Meidum. The archaeological site lies right behind the village’s church and is composed of 500 acres of land that was inhabited from at least 3250 BCE until about 700 CE, containing the entire history of Egypt until just after the Arab Conquest.
The identity of the people carrying out the looting is not certain, but they seem to be from every walk of life. In addition to local looters, organised gangs from other places in the Nile Valley are also digging at the site. Once gently undulating sand, the site is now a pock-marked lunar landscape with dense scatters of mummy wrappings pulled off bodies, and huge piles of bones. Wrapped limbs and heads of people who were buried here more than 2000 years ago now lie dismembered and scattered about the site. Obviously, several artefacts have been recovered from here; the pillagers hide their loot on-site in convenient tombs and covered by desiccated reeds and maize stalks.
In addition to coloured sarcophagi and coffins that are offered for sale in the area, shabtis (funerary faience figurines), amulets, glazed ceramics, pots, bead necklaces, bead bracelets, and chunks of inscription, hacked out of the limestone walls, are on offer. Dealers of various levels are clearly coming to buy objects here, and then taking them to their stores or distribution points in both rural and urban locations. The smaller objects are of higher prices because they can be smuggled easier outside of Egypt while a complete sarcophagus with its mummy might be of a lower price due to the difficulty in its transportation.
All of the sites that are being looted are suffering, as objects are being ripped undocumented from their contexts, without which the knowledge that they can impart is greatly diminished. The case of Abu Sir Al-Maleq is particularly tragic as it has never been fully excavated. The site has connections to Osiris, god of the dead, and was of great religious significance.
One of the most ancient sections, containing the graves of the Nagada II (3250-3050 BCE) era, was excavated by Otto Rubensohn in 1902-04. He also found 18th Dynasty (1550-1070 BCE) burials as well as priestly graves of the Late Period (712-332 BCE). A black sarcophagus belonging to Pakhus, currently in the Meidum storage house, has been found in the area. In 1905-06 Georg Möller also found burials of the Second Intermediate/Hyksos period (1640-1532 BCE). The archaeology of the Hyksos period is limited, with the majority of evidence coming from the Delta. Thus, any site with evidence of the history of that era, particularly one from this part of Egypt, is a treasure.
In addition to these tombs, a temple of the 30th Dynasty was also found near the village mosque. Caliph Marwan Al-Ja’di (744-751) of the Umayyad Dynasty is also said to have died very close to the monastery of Abu Sir Al-Maleq; a vase belonging to him said to have been found in the area is currently on display in the Museum of Islamic Art in Cairo. Although some archaeological work has been carried out at Abu Sir el-Melq, enormous parts of it have never been scientifically investigated and it was a site filled with potential to better understand the history of Egypt, particularly in its very early and late phases.
Egyptian state bodies, civil society organisations and citizens all need to act immediately and work together for the protection of the country’s archaeological heritage. The different stakeholders of Egyptian heritage need to get actively involved in the study, protection and preservation of this heritage. Egypt’s future lies in its past, and with its loss, lies a dim future with lesser opportunities for the coming generations.
The potential Egypt has through its palimpsest of culture is enormous; its unique assets should provide economic and nationalistic values for its citizens. Each object that goes on the antiquities market loses its context and so loses its own history and that of the period it represents. It is like losing different pieces of a massive jigsaw.
It is a tragedy that we will not know more about those who lived and died here, in Abu Sir Al-Maleq; their beliefs and their lives. Only salvage archaeology can help at this point, and should be encouraged, or we will lose all evidence of Egypt’s rich past in this area.
The ancient settlement of Abusir el-Malek sat on a small rise in the fertile floodplain between the Faiyum and the Nile. By 1500 B.C., it was a prosperous settlement with many temples and a vast burial ground and buildings stretching across a large area. Excavations in the early twentieth century revealed burials centered on a cult honoring Osiris, the Egyptian god of the afterlife. The earliest evidence of occupation at the site dates from around 3000 B.C., with the majority of burials beginning 1,500 years later. The cemetery continued to be used for centuries, with the earlier shaft tombs being filled with later burials from the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. Thousands of individuals were buried at the site over hundreds of years of use.
Archaeological exploration of Abusir el-Malek in the early twentieth century resulted in many artifacts being placed in museums around the world, bringing attention to the importance of the site and its history. Site work continued in the 1970s, emphasizing again the valuable information being gained from documenting Abusir el-Malek. Following the Arab Spring in 2011, when policing archaeological sites became more difficult, there was a tremendous surge in looting of heritage sites in the region. Abusir el-Malek is one of the archaeological sites that has been particularly heavily looted. The continuing destruction of sites in search of saleable antiquities has resulted in the loss of scientific evidence, artifacts, and understanding of the stratigraphy of archaeological ruins at thousands of ancient sites like Abusir el-Malek. Sadly this situation is not unique in Egypt, or elsewhere in the world. Times of crisis—poverty, conflict, or political turmoil—stretch the protection of our past, often to breaking point.
Placing Abusir el-Malek on the 2016 World Monuments Watch cannot repair the damage to the site, but it can potentially raise awareness about looting and highlight efforts worldwide to stem the tide of illicit trafficking of archaeological objects. Developing alternative sources of income for local communities and incentives for protecting heritage sites, coupled with enforcement of local, national, and international cultural property laws, is a vital challenge.
posted
OH! You are backing off R-V88 now are you? He! HE! He!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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...notice the mt. L lineages show no continuity from pre Ptolemy to the Roman period, While just about everything else does. Pay attention to the differences in color before and during Ptolemaic.
Could just be the blue creating an illusion of a darker orange though with all things considered.
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posted
That is why I was never worried when the new paper came out about supposed SSA increase in ancestry after the Romans. I knew it was BS without even looking at the paper first hand. The data had to be skewed. Why I am I so convinced. It is geographically impossible to lie. Plus the Dog, Cattle and now asses is African. I just saw a paper on the pigs of Sardinia. Guess what? African pigs in "Europe". HE! He! HE!
Plus human mtDNA-L has been found in 8000yo farmers in the Levant. And other parts of Neolithic Europe. I knew this set of researchers were lying. He! He! He!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
quote: "crusted coprolite'. He! hE! I had to Google that one. Funny! I got your number. You know that? right?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why I was never worried when the new paper came out about supposed SSA increase in ancestry after the Romans. I knew it was BS without even looking at the paper first hand. The data had to be skewed.
So before the Romans Egypt was so SSA it wan't possible to become more SSA ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why I was never worried when the new paper came out about supposed SSA increase in ancestry after the Romans. I knew it was BS without even looking at the paper first hand. The data had to be skewed.
So before the Romans Egypt was so SSA it wan't possible to become more SSA ?
Basically all of Africa had L, but probably not all, already by that time.
quote: Given the phylogeny, the frequency, and the diversity patterns observed in Africa for L1b, it is likely that this haplogroup arose in West Africa, from where it moved to other African and non-African locations.
There is a subclade of L1b defined by the transition A16289G (Fig. 2) and named here L1b1a2a, which could have originated later in East Africa (represented by three divergent sequences from Ethiopia: GenBank accession numbers EU092952, EU092942, and EU092950).
L1b1a2a could have moved from East Africa to the North downstream the Nile shores toward Egypt (represented by the complete genome EU092775).
The immediate ancestral node, L1b1a2 (Fig. 2), is represented by a single mitogenome observed in Israel (the Bedouin sequence EU092672) (Behar et al. 2008).
posted
mtDNA L is African and has always been found throught out Africa and regions near Africa like Southern Europe, Iberia, Near East and into the Persian region.
If the Levant had mtDNA L 8000years ago. These are African people living ****BEYOND*** Egypt 3000 years BEFORE the creation of the Nation State of Egypt. Their descendants are still living in the Levant as Bedoiuns. Bedoiuns carry the highest frequency of Cameroonian R-V88!!!. That is why "faceology", and "noseology" along when picture spamming and "eyeballogy" ares mostly useless especially when we can go back in time through aDNA genetics. Genetics is Unambiguous. And there is very little subjectivity. But you need to understand it.
So Really. What the paper has done is given me more proof that there was probably very little difference between ancient Greeks/Romans and these ancient Africans. I have always said there is absolutely NO proof ancient Egypt was occupied by Greeks/Romans related to modern Europeans. nein!
E/E-V22-13 is as African as they come. These male Natufians were Africans so to were the women.
Why do you think they haven't analyzed the ancient Greeks as yet. The few that they have analyzed the results were NOT disclosed. You people need to understand Europeans people and their deception.
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posted
I don't debate hypotheticals. I said that so many times. No one wins and there is a million-1 "what if" scenarios. I debate the data. Do you have anything to add?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why I was never worried when the new paper came out about supposed SSA increase in ancestry after the Romans. I knew it was BS without even looking at the paper first hand. The data had to be skewed.
So before the Romans Egypt was so SSA it wan't possible to become more SSA ?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote: . The immediate ancestral node, L1b1a2 (Fig. 2), is represented by a single mitogenome observed in Israel (the Bedouin sequence EU092672) (Behar et al. 2008).
Tell Halula [H43] 6800-6000 BC (L2a1) Incomplete HVRI with 16261T, 16278T, 16294T, 16309G
16309G on the Euphrates 8000 years ago.
Modern Upper Egyptians from Gurma have it at 20%. Modern Lower Egyptians, Alexandria, have at most 2.6%.
L2a1 is all throughout South of the Sahara at high frequencies. Not that it's absent in or north of the Sahara. Black Americans show 20%. It even shows up in Pakistan.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I don't debate hypotheticals. I said that so many times. No one wins and there is a million-1 "what if" scenarios. I debate the data. Do you have anything to add?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why I was never worried when the new paper came out about supposed SSA increase in ancestry after the Romans. I knew it was BS without even looking at the paper first hand. The data had to be skewed.
So before the Romans Egypt was so SSA it wan't possible to become more SSA ?
stop the avoidance
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[QUOTE] . The immediate ancestral node, L1b1a2 (Fig. 2), is represented by a single mitogenome observed in Israel (the Bedouin sequence EU092672) (Behar et al. 2008).
Tell Halula [H43] 6800-6000 BC (L2a1) Incomplete HVRI with 16261T, 16278T, 16294T, 16309G
16309G on the Euphrates 8000 years ago.
Modern Upper Egyptians from Gurma have it at 20%. Modern Lower Egyptians, Alexandria, have at most 2.6%.
Thanks for the insight,
The site has been directly dated to 9650)9950 calBP (11), showing intense occupation over two to three centuries. The economy of the population has been shown to be that of pastoralists, focusing on goats (11). Archaeobotanical evidence is limited (16) but the evidence present is for two)row barley, probably wild, and no evidence for wheat, rye or other domesticates. In other words the overall economy is divergent from the classic agricultural mode of cereal agriculture found in the Levant, Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamian basin.
—M. Gallego-Llorente,
The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros, Iran
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: archaeologists recognize shared pottery as evidence of a "family"connection.
They analyzed the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker DNA. They did not carry V88, end of story
` Euronut liar Kivisikd said:
quote:
Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
LIAR. Clearly Kivisild et al says "relatives in Early Neolithic samples [of V88] from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara", means that some of the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya Neolithic people carried V88.
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posted
R-V88 has high frequency in extant Iranians...to the SOUTH.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
Clearly Kivisild et al says "relatives in Early Neolithic samples [of V88] from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara", means that some of the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya Neolithic people carried V88. [/QB]
Clyde stop lying you inserted V88. The Early Neolithic relatives were "distant relatives" but who were of a different haplogroup.
quote: all 7 Yamnaya males did belong to the M269 subclade18 of haplogroup R1b.
--Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe Wolfgang Haak1*, Iosif Lazaridis
2015
Clyde this is additional proof you are lying
Furthermore there was a time when there was no R1 and R2. The the basal R originated outside of Africa and Europe
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Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).[/b]
Clearly Kivisild et al says "relatives in Early Neolithic samples [of V88] from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara", means that some of the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya Neolithic people carried V88.
Clyde stop lying you inserted V88. The Early Neolithic relatives were "distant relatives" but who were of a different haplogroup.
quote: all 7 Yamnaya males did belong to the M269 subclade18 of haplogroup R1b.
--Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe Wolfgang Haak1*, Iosif Lazaridis
2015
Clyde this is additional proof you are lying
Furthermore there was a time when there was no R1 and R2. The the basal R originated outside of Africa and Europe
The basal originated in Africa, the derivative expanded outside Africa. As was showen by Fulvio Cruciani. He wrote most extensive on this, while others just ran with it. smh
quote:‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
[...]
Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).
[...]
Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF) Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)
--Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic TreePosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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