quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!! What ties this together is the Blue(Cape Verde!!!), I hope Capra is . reading this. Notice Cape Verde carry BOTH Blue and Red and not Green. Wow! See Capra. That is the smoking gun I was trying to get my hands on. As I said Cape Verde is a relict population and has nothing to do with modern European colonization. They carry both Berbers and South African colors. Did I tell you that Cape Verdeans are Berbers and a relict left over from WHG. Damn!
Bottomline, this chart not only makes my point but highlights another point I made to Capra on Davidiski. Cape Verdeans are a very ancient population. They carry Berber(Red) and South African (Blue) markers.
Source of the chart???????
Cape Verde was uninhabited when the Portuguese discovered it in 1456.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!!
You are misusing the Term "Paragroup" ! Paragroup = ANCESTRAL.
So when you say they are paragroups, you are saying they are ancestral....Your statement is an oxymoron. Furthermore they are not "Siblings". Two brothers are Siblings. M81 and M293 USED to be Siblings.
Now, V827 is the Grandfather of E-M81 who is actually quite old. While V827 is the Great Great Grandfather of M293 who is quite young.
Dont know where you are from but:
Father Grandfather Great Grandfather Great Great Grandfather
Not siblings, Not siblings whatsoever.
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I take it you don't understand the root meaning of para, paraclade or paragroup. But this is not an Reading comprehension class. sorry
Continuing ....
------ Quote from the Yorkshire study: Some historians suggest that Vikings brought captured North Africans to Britain in the 9th century. After a hiatus of several hundred years, the influence of the Atlantic slave trade began to be felt, with the first group of West Africans being brought to Britain in 1555. African domestic servants, musicians, entertainers and slaves then became common in the Tudor period, prompting an unsuccessful attempt by Elizabeth I to expel them in 1601. By the last third of the 18th century, there were an estimated 10 000 black people in Britain,3 mostly concentrated in cities such as London.
This is compatible with a Western African origin for the British chromosome, but DOES NOT POINT TO A PARTICULAR POPULATION!!!! . Using the British haplotype (11 loci) to search the Y Chromosome Haplotype Reference Database (http://www.yhrd.org) finds no matches among 15 815 chromosomes worldwide, emphasizing its rarity. Also, when the haplotypes of the other hgA1 chromosomes are used in similar searches, they find only self-matches in the populations from which they derive, underlining the scarcity and African-specificity of hgA1.
HgE3a is by far the most frequent Y-chromosomal lineage in Africa, existing at 48% in a continent-wide sample of 1122 chromosomes,30 so we would expect any substantial past immigration from Africa to Britain to have left examples of chromosomes belonging to this common hg. However, a survey of 1772 Y chromosomes from the British Isles found none,13 and they are also absent from our control sample of 421 chromosomes. The general rarity of African lineages may reflect a low level of initial introgression, later loss through drift, or sampling bias – for example
The presence of a very rare type of Y chromosome in two distinct branches of a genealogy that coalesce before the late 18th century demonstrates CLEARLY that the chromosome must have been introduced before this time.
------
Mike would have liked this piece. Hope you are reading Mike.
1. A1haplotype found in Britain is unique to this British group of people 2. It has may be an ancient presence since it is not found anywhere else besides IN Britain. Not even Africa 3. For Mike, 10,000 blacks in Britain in the 1800's but none carries E1b1a. The West African lineage. Can you say black Europeans!!! 4. Tudors tried to expel them. Remember the Tudors are imposters to the throne of England. Richard the 111 carried non-European maybe African/Yemeni lineage. But I am not a history buff. Leave that to Dr Winters and Mike.
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No Lioness. I am saying, like I told Capra on Davidski. The Cape Verde WAS occupied pre-colonial times. The European historians are lying. This what the data shows. Genetics will make liar of historians. The "Blue" color found in Cape Verde and Khoi-San. Also the Cape Verde are Red NOT Green. They are Berbers admixture. I made that point to Capra awhile back WITHOUT this data. Cape Verde are a mixture of Berbers and Khoi-San. Look at the fougking chart ..fool. we are back to Khoi-San and Berbers. Like I keep saying.
Someone needs to do a deep dive on Cape Verdeans. We can't trust these lying Europeans. I said awhile back on that Shriver and Beleza study.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] No Lioness. I am saying, like I told Capra on Davidski. The Cape Verde WAS occupied pre-colonial times. The European historians are lying.
You mean the data that was gathered by Europeans?
You told Capra it was occupied before the Portugese . That makes it true because you said it?
It doesn't matter what the DNA is. Without human remains or a settlement you have no evidence so stop the nonsense
Let us know when you come up with any non-European sourced data
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Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary
Stop letting nomenclature fuck your head up. Saying m293 & M81 are paraclades is the equivalent of calling calling E-M90 and M125 Siblings or paraclades.... where the former is within Haplogroup D
And for all intents and purposes, A0-T found in Gambia... is ancestral to the other gambian North African and southern Europe A1a and the khosian A1b. The latter which is of course found multiple mutations downstream from the defining marker V221 separating A1b & A1a.
and once again to reiterate... this shit happened ~a tenth of a million years ago. If Cape verde an Isolated Island was occupied by A1 to which the clades we're talking about diverged, there would be an actual paraclade ONLY found there, A1c or something... and I say that with 99.9999999% confidence.
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My point is That chart shows essentially 3 colors(or four when zoomed in up), light blue, dark blue, green and red. The light blue seems to be Central Africa - A0. Light Green is found ONLY in East Africa and Southern Africa. Dark blue only in Southern Africa and Cape Verde. Red only Berbers and Cape Verde.
This tells me several things.
The ancestral population yes may be Central Africa But this may be remnants of a now decreased population East Africa is NOT the ancestral population. There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde. The pattern is consistent with a central Sahara ancestral population (see OP). Which dissipated with the onset of the arid Sahara. Green migrating East and South, Red migrating West, Dark Blue pushing West and South. The ancestral clade is the light blue. All others are paraclades.(ie para-llel or siblings).
Somewhat to what myself and Dienekess suggested.
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My point is That chart shows essentially 3 colors(or four when zoomed in up), light blue, dark blue, green and red. The light blue seems to be Central Africa - A0. Light Green is found ONLY in East Africa and Southern Africa. Dark blue only in Southern Africa and Cape Verde. Red only Berbers and Cape Verde.
This tells me several things.
The ancestral population yes may be Central Africa But this may be remnants of a now decreased population East Africa is NOT the ancestral population. There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde. The pattern is consistent with a central Sahara ancestral population (see OP). Which dissipated with the onset of the arid Sahara. Green migrating East and South, Red migrating West, Dark Blue pushing West and South. The ancestral clade is the light blue. All others are paraclades.(ie para-llel or siblings).
Somewhat to what myself and Dienekess suggested.
I thought the Cape Verdeans were the descendants of West African slaves, not Berbers. As a result, they would reflect the West African ancestry of this group.
A West African origin for the Cape Verdeans would explain their relationship to South Africans.
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No. That's my point. Lies written by Europeans. The published genetic profile of the native Cape Verdeans are ....North African. NOT West African.This chart posted by Beyoku(first Iseen it) also supports my point of view. The red is Berbers. Expanded it looks like they have a sliver of light blue. Which is very ancient humans. But clearly they are a mixture of Khoi-San and Berbers.
That tells me that what was "written" was a lie...which is not surprising. Remember Shriver and Beleza couldn't not explain the phenotype and some genotype of Cape Verdeans. They acknowledge some was due to admixture but most was unexplained.
This is the first I have seen this pie chart. Confirming what I speculate don. What remains is Autosomal/SNP studies to confirm. But these lying deceptive Europeans are not interested in that.
Keep in mind East Africans do NOT carry blue. Only Khoi-San and Cape Verdeans carry dark blue.
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All Cape Verdeans in my samplegroup consistently show “Senegal” as number 1 main region. Calculated as a ratio on average “Senegal” is almost 60% of total African ancestry, which is the highest regional ratio i’ve observed for any nationality in my study. “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. “Ivory Coast/Ghana”, “Benin/Togo”, “Nigeria” “Cameroon/Congo” and “Southeast Bantu” are mainly reflecting Trace Region estimates which also include zero percent. Cape Verdeans are scoring similar group averages for “Southeast Bantu” as both African Americans and Haitians. The “North Africa” scores are also more likely to be valid even when reported as a Trace Region. how exactly did this minor proportion of “North African” DNA enter Cape Verdean bloodlines? As a popular explanation it’s usually atributed to exciled Mourisco’s or Conversos, from the earliest colonization period. judging from cultural retention it can be said that the Wolof and the Mandinga probably were most influential in Cape Verde. “North African” markers were inherited through Portuguese ancestors. it might be telling that on 23andme the Portuguese results seem to score barely any “North Africa”. The AncestryDNA results for the Fula person, showing 16% “North Africa”, points towards a second possibility. “North African” DNA markers reported for Cape Verdeans might (in part) have been inherited from the Fula people. The historical presence of the Fula in Cape Verde is well documented (e.g. see the 1856 slave census) and it’s also well known that their ancestral make up reflects a minor but sizable portion of “North African” DNA, most likely to be larger than for Portuguese. The best documented source for any “North African” DNA might come from the second wave of Jewish migration to Cape Verde.
A second parallel may be drawn with the Dominican Republic. We know that in the earliest colonization period of Hispaniola experienced slaves and also trusted servants, the socalled Ladino’s, were taken along by the Spanish settlers. As they found themselves in unfamiliar territory it makes sense they didn’t rely on African born labourers at first. Again i like to emphasize this is pure speculation on my part, but in analogy could it possibly be that the first Portuguese settlers in Cape Verde took along North African servants they already had in Portugal itself? To be sure these maternal lineages of seemingly Berber origin might also have found their way in Cape Verde through other ways, as they also have been reported to some extent for Upper Guinea itself (see this paper). Again a Fula scenario being most likely in this case. Either way it’s not too farfetched to assume that whomever left behind the Berber like mtDNA in Cape Verde would also have left behind an autosomal legacy read by AncestryDNA as “North African”.
Distribution of Y chromosomes belonging to hgA. Distribution of hgA among 4516 Y chromosomes in and around Africa, taken from the literature (see text). The colored sector of each pie chart is proportional to the frequency of subgroups of hgA, defined according to the phylogeny lower left. The gray sector in Cyprus indicates hgA chromosomes that were not further subclassified.32 The phylogeny includes selected markers referred to in the text. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n3/full/5201771a.html?foxtrotcallback=true
Africans in Yorkshire? The deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny within an English genealogy
Turi E King1, Emma J Parkin1, Geoff Swinfield2, Fulvio Cruciani3, Rosaria Scozzari3, Alexandra Rosa4, Si-Keun Lim5, Yali Xue5, Chris Tyler-Smith5 and Mark A Jobling1
We describe the presence of an hgA1 chromosome in an indigenous British male. The British male carrying the hgA1 chromosome knew of no familial African connection, and he displays a typical European appearance.
HgA is the deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny, and shows a particularly specific localization to the African continent (Figure 1), which is compatible with an African origin for modern human Y chromosomes. It constitutes 5.4% of a composite sample of 3551 Africans,4, 8, 10, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 whereas in non-African indigenous populations only seven cases have been described, from Turkey,31 Cyprus,32 Sardinia33, 34 and Oman.35 Extensive surveys of Western European populations have failed to find any examples of these chromosomes.13, 36, 37, 38, 39 The subhaplogroup A1 was first reported in a single individual among a sample of 44 males from Mali.4 Subsequently, this scarce Western African hg has been found in only 25 more males (Figure 1): 2/64 Moroccan Berbers,24 3/766 African Americans,40, 41 2/39 Mandinka from Gambia/Senegal, 1/55 Malian Dogon,30 1/201 Cape Verde Islanders, 14/276 males from Guinea-Bissau,10 and 2/39 males from Niger (F Cruciani and R Scozzari, unpublished data).
Britain has a long history of contact with Africa (reviewed by Fryer2). Africans were first recorded in the north 1800 years ago, as Roman soldiers defending Hadrian's wall – 'a division of Moors'. Some historians suggest that Vikings brought captured North Africans to Britain in the 9th century. After a hiatus of several hundred years, the influence of the Atlantic slave trade began to be felt, with the first group of West Africans being brought to Britain in 1555. African domestic servants, musicians, entertainers and slaves then became common in the Tudor period, prompting an unsuccessful attempt by Elizabeth I to expel them in 1601. By the last third of the 18th century, there were an estimated 10 000 black people in Britain,3 mostly concentrated in cities such as London.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde.
xyyman were you aware that Cape Verde has no berber groups and berber ancestry is only at trace percentages? It's not a berber country, I'm sorry to tell you.
Oral traditions passed down through the centuries among the Portuguese and the Cape Verdeans indicate that the islands were not always uninhabited. According to these stories, Sao Tiago was inhabited by Wolofs, natives of Senegal and Gambia, both west African coastal nations; and that Sal was inhabited by Lebu, Serer, the Felup. These groups were also native to the African continent. However the island was uninhabited when the Portuguese arrived.
So looking at this map haplogroup A is hardly a presence in the Maghreb where the vast majority of berbers are. The is a tiny sliver in Morocco . There is a sliver in Mali and Niger where some Tuaregs are but that sliver does not indicate it is particular to berbers, the vast majority of Mali and Niger are not berber. Tuareg in Mali are E1 carriers
Xyyman you have posted another chart which debunks you, this is embarrassing.
I don't know why you like to get all hype about these small places like Sardina and Cape Verde as if you discovered them
In Cape Verde the small sliver of blue(haplgroup A2) that is the only thing matching with Southern Africa , primarily Namibia. Cape Verde is not a berber country. It was unpopulated before the Portuguese got there but may have been populated at an earlier time.
But if you prefer "Europeans lie" there were Khosians there.
So what? Haplogroup A2 is virtually non-existant in berbers !!!
If I wanted to show that there is virtually no connection between berbers and Khosians in Southern Africa this is the map I would show. You're like a pirate with no gold. You throw a boomerang and it comes back and hits you on the back of the head.
The thing you should have picked up on is the A3 (in green) common to East Africa and to Southern Africa.
So as usual you look at the these charts and tell the wrong story about them, in fact backwards
And even if you look sat the A3 in depth
quote:
A3b2-M13 The subclade of haplogroup A3 that is commonly found in East Africa and northern Cameroon (A3b2-M13) is different from those found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence. In Sudan, haplogroup A3b2-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese. In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo. Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13. Haplogroup A3b2 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%, 3/92 = 3.3%), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%, 1/22 = 4.5%), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%).
posted
Is this "homemade" with crayons? But seriously , what study is this from?
You do realize that it shows Cape Verdeans are primarily North African(Berbers) if Mali is part of North Africa. Infact mostly North African and South African and WA Bantu being a minority. You did look at the chart before you posted it?
quote: "To be sure these maternal lineages of seemingly Berber origin might also have found their way in Cape Verde through other ways, as they also have been reported to some extent for Upper Guinea itself (see this paper). Again a Fula scenario being most likely in this case. Either way it’s not too farfetched to assume that whomever left behind the Berber like mtDNA in Cape Verde would also have left behind an autosomal legacy read by AncestryDNA as “North African”."
You keep making my point for me Lioness
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Cape Verdeans are a mixture of Berbers/indigenous North Africans and Khoi-Sans with traces amount of West Africans.
Oh! Can anyone tell me what they mean by South East Bantus? After all think the supposed Bantu expansion. lol!
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Is this "homemade" with crayons? But seriously , what study is this from?
You do realize that it shows Cape Verdeans are primarily North African(Berbers) if Mali is part of North Africa. Infact mostly North African and South African and WA Bantu being a minority. You did look at the chart before you posted it?
Do you realize almost everything you say is wrong? If this chart was grouping Malians as North Africans they would be included in the red potion.
Tuareg, the berbers of Mali live in Northern Mali and they are E3 carriers 90% of Malians are not berbers and they live in the southern Mali.
So you are wrong on two different levels
Silly man Cape Verde has a population of about a half a million and they are not a berber country and don't even have a berber group minority. So are you going to proceed with any more of you extremely silly remarks about berbers?
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No fool. There is a reason why the authors grouped Mali NOT a part of "Bantu". It is deception. They did not group them with North Africa either. Don't understand and recognize European deception as yet?
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No fool. There is a reason why the authors grouped Mali NOT a part of "Bantu". It is deception. They did not group them with North Africa either. Don't understand and recognize European deception as yet?
No it is your deception. Malians are not Southern, the category on the chart is SOUTHERN BANTUS iit s not simply "bantus." Southern bantus are of South Africa, Botswana, and Mozambique.
Look at the rest of the chart, Cameroon, Nigeria, that is proto bantu homeland !
And no, they are not Southern bantus either.
Read me carefully now. What you are calling deception is self deception. (Newbies careful of this guy)
And yet another dimension to your foolery is that that sliver of A in Mali is A1 ( in red) It is not even the South African A !
recap:
- Cape Verde was unoccupied when the Portuguese arrived.
- The Portuguese brought slaves there
- There are no berber groups in Cape Verde
- Most Cape Verdians are not A carriers
- the berbers in Mali are the Tuareg E1 carriers
- 90% of Malians live in the southern part of Mali
- LESS THAN 1% OF MALIANS ARE TUAREG
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^^ let it sink in
Any DNA analysis shows that berbers have some of the least in common with Khoisans compared to other Africans Even a child can see that
What you do is you have a preconceived notion and then you go about trying to CP* information to fit it. It's called "confirmation bias"
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"Any DNA analysis shows that berbers have some of the least in common with Khoisans compared to other Africans Even a child can see that "
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The exact implications being made by the socalled “Mali” region are quite uncertain (see AncestryDNA regions). But it seems meaningful that “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. It’s perhaps also telling that the range of the “Mali” scores only goes to a maximum of 27,5%, while it’s median score of 11,6% shows its consistency. Implying it’s a significant ancestral component but always minor and in addition to “Senegal”. I suppose it may suggest widerranging Upper Guinean origins beyond strictly Senegambia. I will discuss this in more detail in the third section below.
• Surprisingly also minor contributions are showing up for both Lower Guinea and Central Africa. This is unexpected when going by Cape Verde’s geographical location and what historical sources have documented about slave trade patterns between Cape Verde and the mainland (see “Cabo Verde, Raizes na Africa“). These sources clearly describe the area in between Senegal and Sierra Leone as practically the only provenance zone for African captives brought to Cape Verde safe for some individuals who came on atypical slave voyages from further away. Some of these persons, mainly from Ghana, Benin, Angola and Congo, have been documented. See charts in section 5 where all the non-Upper Guinean references have been highlighted with red arrows. Judging from the existing data (1856 slave census and slave registers from Fogo/Santiago) they were a very small minority, probably around 1% and at most 5%, but certainly not 25% as suggested by the AncestryDNA findings. Their bloodlines can be expected to have diluted quickly so it’s a rather puzzling outcome. I’m personally not aware of any genetical studies in support of any degree of non-Upper Guinean origins for Cape Verdeans. The two studies i have already referenced both suggesting a completely Senegambian mtDNA profile. This outcome also seems hard to explain when going by the cultural traditions of Cape Verde which only show Upper Guinean influences in its Creole culture for all i know (see also “African retentions in Cape Verdean Culture & Language“).
• First thing to consider is that scores for “Ivory Coast/Ghana”, “Benin/Togo”, “Nigeria” “Cameroon/Congo” and “Southeast Bantu” are mainly reflecting Trace Region estimates which also include zero percent. Also given other limitations of the AncestryDNA analysis it might therefore perhaps be premature to speculate on what these findings might really represent or how robust they might be. They might merely be reflecting generic West African DNA markers which cannot be distinguished yet with greater reliability. Or it could be a misreading of ethnic origins from especially Sierra Leone. Probably only an update of AncestryDNA reference populations might bring more clarity or else comparing with the AncestryDNA results of actual Upper Guineans (to verify if they also show other regions besides “Senegal” and “Mali”) .
• At this stage we might however already note that especially the average score for “Southeast Bantu” seems like it’s a valid finding above “noise” level. Also taking into account the median and the min./max. range. It becomes even clearer when comparing with the results from other parts of the Afro-Diaspora as Cape Verdeans are scoring similar group averages for “Southeast Bantu” as both African Americans and Haitians (see also Afro-Diaspora AncestryDNA results: A Comparison). I suppose it might be possible then that captives brought from other parts of Africa, especially Angola and Mozambique, were more frequent in Cape Verde than recorded by history. If so this research outcome would be the first genetical confirmation of such a Palops connection! However there might also be other explanations. For more discussion see the fifth section.
• The average findings for the “North Africa” region are much more in line with what you would expect, given Cape Verde’s history and geographical location. The “North Africa” scores are also more likely to be valid even when reported as a Trace Region. Afterall “North African” scores are also showing up for Cape Verdeans in other types of DNA testing and DNA studies. So in this way no surprises. However there’s still the remaining question of how exactly did this minor proportion of “North African” DNA enter Cape Verdean bloodlines? As a popular explanation it’s usually atributed to exciled Mourisco’s or Conversos, from the earliest colonization period. However there might also be other scenarios at play. For more discussion see section 4.
• Cape Verdeans can be expected to be a very closely interrelated people across the islands because of their shared history. But it might still be useful to study any of the seemingly small differences occuring between the various islands. As it could tell us more about which ethnic groups might have been involved in the settlement of each island to a possibly greater degree than elsewhere. Genetic differentation between the northern islands (“Barlavento”) and the southern ones (“Sotavento”) has already been reported in DNA studies (see “DNA Evidence“). And it has been correlated with “a common origin in Santiago, followed by differentiation through genetic drift and subsequent input of independent external migrations” (Beleza et al., 2012).
The last chart i posted above is obviously providing only the beginnings of a very rough outline of any possible interisland differences, due to very limited sampling. Only a bigger samplegroup would reveal the patterns more clearly. Also despite relative isolation in earlier generations nowadays Cape Verdeans, especially the ones who have migrated, are much more likely to intermarry with people from other islands. Sofar i haven’t really come across any spectacular island-specific differences when it concerns solely the African breakdown. Except perhaps for these findings (again very preliminary due to samplesize!): •Each island has “Senegal” as biggest region, but calculated as ratio of total African ancestry “Senegal” seems to peak sofar in Fogo, while it’s lowest in Brava. It might suggest something about the composition of Upper Guinean origins being more or less homogenous or restricted to Senegambia proper. Notice also how the Brava islanders among my samplegroup scored the highest “Mali” on average. •None of the Lower Guinean or Central African regions seem to be islandspecific. Except for “Cameroon/Congo” which clearly peaks among the 5 samples from Santo Antăo and even more so for the one result from Săo Nicolau. Again much caution should be applied when interpreting this outcome but it might be an ancestral hint that somehow people of Congolese or (northern) Angolan origin were present in the northern islands to a relatively greater degree than elsewhere and left a minor yet detectable genetical legacy diffused among the general population. However keeping all options open it could also be something specific for only these 6 samples and reflecting unique lines in their family trees. Possibly even involving intermarriage with (mixed-race or black) Brazilians who are also likely to be carrying these Central African DNA markers. •“North Africa” shows the highest scores sofar among the 5 samples from Brava. On 23andme i have also kept track of North African (MENA) scores for Cape Verdeans. (see this online spreadsheet). And similarly i found that it was on average higher for people from Fogo and Brava. It could be due to a founding effect from the earliest colonization period. However in part it might also be correlated with their generally larger European ancestry. For more discussion see section
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As I said, these lying deceptive Europeans. To the newbies notice the author has Mali in "". The author is also confused by what is "Mali". These foukginh Europeans are messed up! Lies and deceptions. Cannot be trusted.
Quote:
The exact implications being made by the socalled “Mali” region are quite uncertain (see AncestryDNA regions). But it seems meaningful that “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. It’s perhaps also telling that the range of the “Mali” scores only goes to a maximum of 27,5%, while it’s median score of 11,6% shows its consistency."
It’s unfortunate that Ancestry.com hasn’t made public sofar (afaik) the ethic background of the samples they used for the “Mali” region"
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Mali is North Africans which aligns with the Uniparental markers. They are jokers.
OH! FYI they removed or filtered "European" ancestry for the write up. READ THE REPORT!!!!!!
I know all the deceptive techniques used by these lying Europeans
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That's the problem with you fools. You don't read before you post.
Cape Verde ancestry cannot be explained based on even "recorded" history.
Cape Verdeans are North Africans an South Africans.
The Cape Verdeans are related to South Africans because of the early spread of LOd into West Africa 100kya.
LOd is the oldest haplogroup (1-4). This haplogroup is primarily carried by the Khoisan people (1-2,4). It is also found among Niger-Congo speakers in East Africa (4) and we find LOa in West Africa (3). In this paper we will examine and discuss the demic diffusion of LOd across the African continent into West Africa. This is important because we discuss an early expansion of carriers of LOd from East Africa to West Africa before the exit of homo sapien sapiens from Africa.
Haplogroup LOd predicts a significant period of time for anatomically modern humans (amh) living in Africa to spread across the continent. The existence of the LOd haplotype AF-24 among Senegalese supports this view. AF-24 is an ancient haplotype associated with LOd .
The TMRCA of LOd dates to 106kya. As a result, anatomically modern humans (amh) had plenty of time to spread this haplogroup to Senegal. In West Africa the presence of amh date to the Upper Palaeolithic (6). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that amh had ample opportunity to spread LOd to West Africa during this early period of demic diffusion.
The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (7). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material has been found near Cap Manuel (6), Gambia River in Senegal (8-9); and Cap Vert (7). The distribution of the Sangoan culture supports the demic diffusion of LOd into the Senegambia over 100kya.
The presence of these genes among the West Africans, led to its presence in Cape Verde when the slaves were shipped to the Island by the Portuguese.
Statistics can tell us very little about the phylogeography of any given population. You need archaeological evidence to prove the phylogeography of any given population's historical migrations.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
2% modern European canNOT account for a 70% admixed population!!! These people are more similar to Paupans with a light complexion. Think WHG with Neolithic light skin.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Cape Verdeans are a mixture of Berbers/indigenous North Africans and Khoi-Sans with traces amount of West Africans.
Oh! Can anyone tell me what they mean by South East Bantus? After all think the supposed Bantu expansion. lol!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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^^ It's so very simple to see, A2 and A3 are in Southern Africa (green and blue) but nowhere in berber country except a tiny sliver in Morocco. So what we learn about the story of A in Africa s that it is found primarily in Southern and Eastern Africa with small amounts in West Africa/Sahel (A1) . Northern mali has some Tuareg but they are E3 carriers
posted
I told you the genetic evidence shows in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it. In fact. I believe it may have been part of continental Africa at one time just as the Canaries. Or well within boating distance. In fact there may have been a land mass connecting parts of West Africa, Canary Islands and Atlantic Europe. That would explain the unexplainable. "whatever remains must be the truth". That is the only explanation for geographic distribution of R1b-M269 and the presence of yDNA-A and mtDNA in Atlantic Europe. It will also explain the distribution of more West African lineage in Portugal vs North African lineage in Spain. Yes, anyone who reads up on genetics will know what I am talking about. There phylogeographical patterns on the Iberian peninsular.
The real question is the age of A1, A2 and A3? I am reading this correctly. A3 should be the youngest. Am I correct Beyoku?
Oh! And the other map shows a connection between North Africa and South Africa using E1b1b just as y-DNA A. Not that E1b1b is over 50Ky old and y-DNA A is over 100K. Unlike E1b1a which is closer to 7k years old.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I told you the genetic evidence shows in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it.
the genetic evidence does not show Cape Verde in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it despite you saying it over and over.
it only shows is that they found some A2 there
If Cape Verde was occupied by Wolof people prior to the Europeans it doesn't matter because they may have been gone by the time the Europeans arrived so it doesn't matter if the Island was occupied before the Europeans. It matters if they were STILL THERE when the Portuguese arrived.
But what does it matter if there were some there before the Portuguese? If we are talking about Berbers, Berbers don't carry A2
A2 is only relevant to places where there is A2 !!!
So stop the nonsense. The Cape Verde islands are an isolated place, how are they even relevant to other regions except in the age of shipping trade?
And now you are brining up M269 trying to change the subject. M269 has nothing to do with A2
So again, stop the nonsense
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
My point is . The Cape Verde is where BOTH South African/Khoi-San and North African(Berbers) yDNA-A is found(dark blue and red). Of course there may be more areas that have not been sampled as yet. In Addition Cape Verdean other uniparental markers are more consistent with North Africans and Europeans NOT SSA or West Africans. The R1b labeled as R1b is most likely R1b-V88 but no high resolution testing was performed so the assumption was these were modern Portuguese R1b-M269. Which I doubt it is. So we back to Cape Verde carry ancient lineage. Plus based upon what you posted. There is no "documented' historical explanation for the genetic makeup of modern Cape Verdeans. Modern West Africa autosomal markers frequency are insignificant. These people are NOT descendants of West African slaves or modern Europeans. There are remnants of an ancient population connected to North African ad Pre-Neolithic Europeans/WHG. I am sure if the BAM files of La Brana and Loschbour was available and a comparison was done with Cape Verde, they will match may be more closely(to European HG) then modern North Africans and Modern Europeans. TheMaster, how about it?
To those who don't know. Canary Islanders carry MORE La Brana markers than North Africans. I assume Cape Verdeans will carry even more than Canary Islanders since they are more isolate and phenotypically very much like La Brana. Black skin with light eyes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: These people are NOT descendants of West African slaves or modern Europeans.
The R1b labeled as R1b is most likely R1b-V88 but no high resolution testing was performed so the assumption was these were modern Portuguese R1b-M269. Which I doubt it is.
The vast majority of Cape Verdeans are E1b1a and R1b not of haplogroup A.
Did you know that?
Most of the people are a mix of AfricaN and European similar in a sense to Brazilians but by now more African.
If an African from Cameron carried R1b-V88 they could have ancestors brought to Cape Verde as a slave. So somebody carrying V88 does not mean they did not have slave ancestors
La Brana is of haplogroup C, has nothing to do with any of this
The genetic makeup of the Canary Islands is quite different than Cape Verde
So again all these things you want to be connected to tell a preconceived story you made up are not connected in the way you want them to be.
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Another example that you don't know what you are talking about. The vast majority of Cape Verdeans are R1b - 42%, North African J1, E1b1b and G is 29%. E1b1a only makes up 18%. Do the research fool. I posted on this on ESR. Cape Verdeans are NOT West Africans they are North Africans and Africans probably carrying R1b-V88. Like Villabruna man.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ people ignore this no primary sources cited
quote:
The most frequent haplogroup in the total sample is R1b1b2 (R-M269) (42.7%), followed by E1b1a (18.8%); for all other haplogroups, frequencies are lower than 10%. R1b1b2 is the most common lineage in European populations, with frequencies ranging from 20% to 80% at the continental level [42] and from 59% to 66% in the Iberia Peninsula [43], [34]. E1b1a is typical of Africa, comprising ∼60–85% of NRY lineages in sub-Saharan populations, and specifically 81–85% in West African populations
--- The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies Sandra Beleza 2012
.
so it's you who doesn't know what you are talking about, that 18% E1b1a is the highest frequency E clade there and the R1b is M269
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posted
Lol! You are such a clown. You just repeated what I just posted. I said 18% E1b1a, E1b1b-M35 is 15% add J and G takes it up to 29% North African. Then there is R1b (?). Cape Verdeans do NOT carry a majority West African lineage of E1b1a. Stop the BS.
I am digging into R1b-92R7. Which is not only found on Cape Verde but the R1b-92R7 is also found in throughout coastal West Africa. Like Guinea Bissau and.....Mali!!!! tic! Toc! Cite the source? He! He! He!
I do not know enough about the mutation 92R7 to break it down.
Cape Verdean male lineage is majority North African and "European" NOT West African. The "European" lineage of above 42% is unbelievable and impossible. That R1b needs to be deeply analyzed.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [Q] ^ people ignore this no primary sources cited
[QUOTE]
The most frequent haplogroup in the total sample is R1b1b2 (R-M269) (42.7%), followed by E1b1a (18.8%); for all other haplogroups, frequencies are lower than 10%. R1b1b2 is the most common lineage in European populations, with frequencies ranging from 20% to 80% at the continental level [42] and from 59% to 66% in the Iberia Peninsula [43], [34]. E1b1a is typical of Africa, comprising ∼60–85% of NRY lineages in sub-Saharan populations, and specifically 81–85% in West African populations
--- The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies Sandra Beleza 2012 [/Q].
so it's you who doesn't know what you are talking about, that 18% E1b1a is the highest frequency E clade there and the R1b is M269 [/QB]
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Cape Verde is not in between Africa and Europe it's off the coast of Senegal, is an isolated place with few natural resources of little consequence to Africa or Europe. Populations did not originate on islands.
So why you are so hyped about it like you discovered it and it is some key to something is pure silliness
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age - Anna Szécsényi-Nagy1 2017
---- Quote: Some of the Iberian Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups (U2, N*, N1a) are not observed in the successive Chalcolithic Iberian population (n=156), whereas others maintain a steady frequency (V, T2, X) throughout 3500 years. An interesting exception is haplogroup L1b in the Late Chalcolithic Central Iberia at the site Camino de las Yeseras (n. 57 on Fig. 1), near Madrid. This group is most frequent in today’s West-Central Africa65, and hints at a connection to the North-West African coasts in prehistoric times ------
Also - keep in mind Eva Fernandez found at least 50% SSA lineage in pre-historic Iberians. This is not talked about much. And she was not the only one.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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