posted
^ Again projecting. YOU are obviously the straw queen because all you cited is Kura-Araxes when nobody in here ever said that was the culture that Abraham and his people were part of. Abraham came from northern Mesopotamia and there were a variety of cultures there.
By the way did you read the 'Destruction of Humanity' story?
I doubt it. YOU are the one who ignores sources you lying twit.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Again projecting. YOU are obviously the straw queen because all you cited is Kura-Araxes when nobody in here ever said that was the culture that Abraham and his people were part of. Abraham came from northern Mesopotamia and there were a variety of cultures there.
Then can we please see you reference a source that shows hg J arriving into the Levant/Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes, since that is what you are claiming was the case?
You keep repeating this bs without any evidence to substantiate it.
How do you not understand what I am asking you, after weeks of me breaking it down in several different ways?
Are you seriously this dense?
I promise we can talk about the flood stories after you produce a source(s) showing hg J arriving in the Levant/Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, but you see strikingly similar myths in India with Vaivasvata Manu a son of the sun god being a "King of Dravida" ...
Yes, it can at least partly be due to these civilisations had contact with each other, either directly or by intermediate (both geographically but also chronologically) cultures. Thus India had contact with Mesopotamia, which inspired the Israelite versions, which in its turn inspired the Quranic version. Persians had contacts with Mesopotamians and Indians, and with Greeks and so on.
So many of the myths can be results of traditions (perhaps inspired by real catastrophes) which have diffused into other cultures.
One can perhaps compare with different sailors tales inspiring other similar tales through the ages, like the Odyssey, Jasons adventures at sea, the Aeneid (which seem inspired by the Odyssey), Sindbads voyages. Good stories have a tendency to get spread, especially when different cultures meet.
There are also tales which seem to have arisen without the cultures seemingly had any contact with each other, as many stories about men swallowed by gigantic fishes, whales or other aquatic creatures.
Jean-Loïc Le Quellec, a French researcher, has identified c 170 different tales of people being swallowed by Sea creatures, and other aquatic beasts, and returned alive. The stories are from Europe, Asia, India, Oceania, North America, Mesoamerica and South America.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Again projecting. YOU are obviously the straw queen because all you cited is Kura-Araxes when nobody in here ever said that was the culture that Abraham and his people were part of. Abraham came from northern Mesopotamia and there were a variety of cultures there.
Then can we please see you reference a source that shows hg J arriving into the Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes, since that is what you are claiming was the case?
You keep repeating this bs without any evidence to substantiate it.
How do you not understand what I am asking you, after weeks of me breaking it down in several different ways?
Are you seriously this dense?
I promise we can talk about the flood stories after you produce a source(s) showing hg J arriving in the Levant/Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes.
A) So far there seems to be only one individual even identified as J at the same time Kura-Araxes and 2 as G.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote: Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 Hovhannes Sahakyan
"Interestingly, an ancient individual from the Caucasus[55] belonging to J1a1b-Z18375 is found in the assemblage of the Bronze Age Kura-Araxes cultural tradition. This cultural tradition probably originated in the Caucasus and may explain the radiation of this branch."
this J1 individual is from the same CC Wang article, reference [55]
55. Wang, C.-C. et al. Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions. Nat. Commun. 10, 1–13 (2019).
I didn't even realize that J1 individual was in the Wang article I posted until I went to the supplement because in the main text Wang only mentioned the two Kura-Araxes individuals who were haplogroup G2 (also found in 12th dyn Egypt). If you look at some of these articles they don't all have new data, they might refer to some other article, as here who did the primary testing. So your Sahakyan article is commenting on the sample from CC Wangs earlier article > one individual is not solid
B) This shows how speculative theorizing how J arrived in Mesopotamia by Kura-Araxes. As we see in what you quoted above says "may explain" Yet you still don't know the difference between fact and speculation > and then you pretend it's determinative.
C) But it's possible J arrived in Levant/Mesopotamia by Kura-Araxes. So what? This was before Abraham anyway
D) and there's nothing that proves Abraham, if he existed, was not a descendant of Kura-Araxes
E) According to the bible Noah with his sons wives and children landed on Ararat in Turkey and there were no other people living on earth, Thus he is in the heartland or what would become Kura-Araxes, this even before they spread out ! They were his descendants
F) All there is for description of Abraham is the bible and the bible say doesn't say he was Mesopotamian. It says he was from Ur of the Chaldees and scholars are not even certain where that was. Let that sink in and Hebrew was not his native tongue.
G) Joshua and his tribe went into Israel and killed all the native Canaanites (probably descendants of the Natufians) claims the bible
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Your claim Abraham could not have been J has no basis whatever DNA Kura-Araxes spread or did not does not matter because this was before Abraham BECAUSE even if they did spread J to Mesopotamia/Levant if Abraham hypothetically was a J carrier he also spread J when he migrated to the Levant he just does not get credit BECAUSE IT WAS ALREADY THERE
>> Just like a J Carrier can go right now from one place to another THEY ARE STILL SPREADING J if they have children there yet do not get credit for being the original spreader of the haplogroup
see how that works?
KEY POINT: You want to pretend that after some original migration spreads a haplogroup to new locations that after that no one can ever KEEP SPREADING THE HAPLOGROUP LATER Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ I'm not entertaining your nonsense and goal post movint any longer. You always challenge me and tell me "Abraham could have been a number of haplgroups" yet I never see you trying to challenge people who claim Abraham was J, you only engage people like me who argue that ancient Jews were "black".
Your remedial ass didn't even know the Kura-Araxes had J. You falsely accused me of lying about them having J, even though I posted the source about 4 times.
You are a low IQ troll who despises black people.
The person you are trying to help (Djehuti) already acknowledged that Abraham was not a descendant of the Kura-Araxes.
Good luck finding a source that says people OTHER than the Kura-Araxes brought hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia. That is what he is asserting yet he hasn't produced any evidence demonstrating that idea.
Now all of sudden you guys don't want to deal with Y markers anymore and the cultures they carried. ROFL.
I've shown actual papers where scholars say J came to the Levant/Mespotamia specifically via the Kura-Araxes. You are not a scholar, and you can't even show a source explaining where J did come from. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^ I'm not entertaining your nonsense any longer. I never see you trying to challenge people who claim Abraham was J, you only engage people like me who argue that ancient Jews were "black".
The person you are trying to help (Djehuti) already acknowledged that Abraham was not a descendant of the Kura-Araxes.
Good luck finding a source that says people OTHER than the Kura-Araxes brought hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia.
Read the last sentence I added to my previous post
There are plenty of J carriers who are black Ethiopians and Nubians In a study of 39 Sudanese Nubians 41% were J1
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: And to Brandon (who has a habit of making glaring inaccurate assessments about what I actually believe), I never said anything about skin color so I have no idea why you claimed I want to "exclude J carriers" because they don't have dark skin. It's about lineage. It's about what the "genetic evidence" says right? Oh and I'm a "BHI" remember? I subscribe to a 12 tribes chart on which only 3 of the 12 Israelite tribes are black.
So no, it's not about color, and I never said it was.
As you know there are some "BHI" who don't believe in the 12 Tribes chart. So I am going to assume you do unless you are being facetious above
I think you should make it clear
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^ I think you are an idiot who needs to explain how J got to the Levant/Mesopotamia and which civilization brought it since you supposedly know more than the actual scholars who say it came via the Kura-Araxes.
The people who brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia WERE NOT HEBREWS.
Your bullsh*t opinions and speculations mean nothing. I've referenced sources to substantiate everything I'm saying and you have not. So get to it.
Otherwise stop typing to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^ I think you are an idiot who needs to explain how J got to the Levant/Mesopotamia and which civilization brought it since you supposedly know more than the actual scholars who say it came via the Kura-Araxes.
The people who brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia WERE NOT HEBREWS.
Your bullsh*t opinions and speculations mean nothing. I've referenced sources to substantiate everything I'm saying and you have not. So get to it.
Otherwise stop typing to me.
You want to pretend that after some original migration spreads a haplogroup to new locations that after that no one can ever KEEP SPREADING THE HAPLOGROUP LATER
thus Kura-Araxes is irrelevant to Abraham They were before him, if they spread J they did it before him
Thus J keeps being spread every day to the present day as people who carry J migrate to new locations
You want to pretend some kind of door shuts where no one can spread it after the first theorized to do so That's your scam and we all see it
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^ "the lioness" thinks Abraham is a descendant of J-carrying Kura-Araxes hunter gatherers from the Caucusus who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia.
ROFL, even Dhejuti rejected that stupidity because he knows that is impossible. If that's truly what you believe then go argue with him about it because even he will disagree with you on that.
Stop pestering me you clueless idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about, you just want to troll and argue for the sake of trolling and arguing.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] ^ "the lioness" thinks Abraham is a descendant of J-carrying Kura-Araxes hunter gatherers from the Caucusus who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia.
No, so far I have only seen on individual determined Hg J who was identified as Kura-Araxes so it is not certain even they were predominantly J
The haplogroup of Abraham, if he existed is unknown. The strongest possibilities would be he was of the same haplogroup as one of the haplogroups in his native region in his time period
Scholars say Abrahams native tongue was not Hebrew Although he his seen as the founding patriarch of of Judaism. It is not clear at what point Hebrew language and culture can identified in relation to his lifespan
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"The lioness" is so clueless that he is trying to argue Abraham was a descendant of the J-carrying Kura-Araxes/Hurrians who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia.
The funny part is that these people WERE NOT Hebrews or descendants of Shem (Abraham's forefather) and "the lioness" fails to realize he has been trying to insert Abraham into a lineage that is not even his.
If these people carried J but WERE NOT apart of Shem's lineage then what do you think that means, you idiot?
Let that sink in.
The people who introduced J to the Levant/Mesopotamia were not Hebrews and had nothing to do with Abraham. If you are claiming that J somehow became Hebrew after the Kura-Araxes culture then you are an IDIOT. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The lioness" is so clueless that he is trying to argue Abraham was a descendant of the J-carrying Kura-Araxes/Hurrians who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia.
The funny part is that these people WERE NOT Hebrews or descendants of Shem (Abraham's forefather) and "the lioness" fails to realize he has been trying to insert Abraham into a lineage that is not even his.
If these people carried J but WERE NOT apart of Shem's lineage then what do you think that means, you idiot?
Let that sink in.
The people who introduced J to the Levant/Mesopotamia were not Hebrews and had nothing to do with Abraham. If you are claiming that J somehow became Hebrew after the Kura-Araxes culture then you are an IDIOT.
The Hebrews came after Kura-Araxes That means Hebrew language and culture could have come from people who had Kura-Araxes ancestors,
Just like there are some people in Egypt today who might have ancestry that goes back to the ancient Egyptian culture yet today they might be Muslim or Christian Just like the Arabs also spread J into East and North Africa. You want to pretend there was some rule against it
> Let that sink in stupid
People can change their language and culture language later fool
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Shem (the forefather of the Hebrews) was one of Noah's direct sons. Are you asserting that Shem's lineage gave rise to the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization, you idiot?
You're so retarded you don't even realize you're claiming that Kura-Araxes/Hurrians somehow transformed into Hebrews.
Your arguments get more remedial each time you come back to this thread. Don't be surprised when I stop responding.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Shem (the forefather of the Hebrews) was one of Noah's direct sons. Are you asserting that Shem's lineage gave rise to the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian ?
There you go with your cute little trick, mix in Hurrian
edited version:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Shem (the forefather of the Hebrews) was one of Noah's direct sons. Are you asserting that Shem's lineage gave rise to the Kura-Araxes ?
Possibly if Shem existed
and it's also a problem determining exactly when he did if he did, to make this all work in a timeline in relation to Kura-Araxes
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There you go with your cute little trick, mix in Hurrian
What a clueless idiot. Back to ignoring you now, thanks for reminding me why I was avoiding you in the first place. You're a low level troll who knows next to nothing about this topic. Go find some other black people to pester.
quote: In the Akkadian period, Kura-Araxes stratified ceramics come from primary contexts (liv-ing floors) of the royal palace. On these floors we had a total of 11,618 sherds, of which only 25 were Kura-Araxes ceramics. These same floors yielded a large number of seal impressions of the Hurrian king (endan in Hurrian) of Urkesh, Tupkish, his queen, Uqnitum, and servants connected with her. From their seal inscriptions we know that the city was named Urkesh and that the ruling elite was Hurrian. Evidence from the royal inscriptions, the seal legends and an administrative cuneiform tablet indicate that the language they were using was Hurrian. We have argued elsewhere that the local dynasty, whose kings called themselves endan, was connected to the Akkadian rulers to the south in specific ways, one of which was through the previously unknown daughter of Naram-Sin, Tar'am-Agade, who in all likelihood was married to an endan of Urkesh. A number of door sealings connected with the palace, sealed with a contest scene naming her as seal owner, attest to the fact that she was present in Urkesh. We have also published our interpretation that the purveyors of the Kura-Araxes culture can be identified as Hurrian.
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And no, the Hurrians were not descendants of Shem or related to Hebrews/Israelites. My God, what an idiot. Keep up the good work tho. You owned me so hard.
/sarcasm
I'm screenshotting that comment of you saying Hurrians possibly descended from Shem to demonsrate what a complete and clueless idiot you are.
You are NOT worth mine or anyone else's time.
quote: While Hurrians are not mentioned by that name in the Bible, scholars suggest they had contact with the Israelites during the second millennium BC. When Abraham stayed in Haran of northwest Mesopotamia, he was living in the major region of Hurrian influence. Some scholars also suggest Hurrians lived in Canaan before and during the Israelite period.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There you go with your cute little trick, mix in Hurrian
What a clueless idiot. Back to ignoring you now, thanks for reminding me why I was avoiding you in the first place. You're a low level troll who knows next to nothing about this topic. Go find some other black people to pester.
quote: URKESH INSIGHTS INTO KURA-ARAXES SOCIAL INTERACTION Marilyn KELLY-BUCCELLATI
We have also published our interpretation that the purveyors of the Kura-Araxes culture can be identified as Hurrian.
Super Jackass, do you know what interpretation means?
from the same article:
quote:
URKESH INSIGHTS INTO KURA-ARAXES SOCIAL INTERACTION Marilyn KELLY-BUCCELLATI
In this article, I will study two cases where the confrontation with an established urban culture on the part of migrating Kura-Araxes groups took place along diametrically opposed lines, and will propose a common reason for this difference. The two sites are Arslantepe in southwest Anatolia and Urkesh (modern Tell Mozan), and the reason I suggest is that at Arslantepe the Kura-Araxes groups met with a completely alien population, one that did not share any of their core values, while at Urkesh they met with a Hurrian population with which, we have reason to believe, the Kura-Araxes culture had many ties of affinity
In the same article she discusses Kura-Araxes and Hurrian as separate entities who had affinity
This is like Mizrahi Jews or share affinities with Palestinians yet one speaks Hebrew the other Arabic
It's even possible Abraham had Hurrian background.
Where Hebrew language comes in is unclear
>AND People can speak more than one language clown, language does not determine ancestry
Haran is usually identified with Harran, now a village of Şanlıurfa, Turkey.
The patriarchal connection with Hurrian culture was traced to Harran in north-western Mesopotamia the heart of Hurrian territory.
According to the Hebrew Bible, Haran was the place where Terah settled with his son Abraham (at that time called Abram), his grandson Lot, and Abram's wife Sarah (at that time known as Sarai) during their planned journey from Ur Kaśdim (Ur of the Chaldees) to the Land of Canaan.[7] The region of Haran is referred to variously as Paddan Aram and Aram-Naharaim. Abram lived there until he was 75 years old before continuing on to Canaan, in response to the command of God
Haran figures prominently in the patriarchal narratives and in the attempts at historical reconstruction of the patriarchal period. In addition to Haran, the father of Lot and brother of Abram (Gen. 11:31), the names of several of Abram's relatives are the names of cities or towns in the region of Haran: Peleg, a distant ancestor (Gen. 11:18); Serug, Abram's greatgrandfather; Nahor, his grandfather and his brother; and Terah, his father (Gen. 11:22-29). Terah took his household to Haran after leaving Ur of the Chaldees (Gen. 11:31-32) and died in Haran. Abram left Haran for Canaan at God's instruction (Gen. 12:1), gathering with him his sizable household and considerable wealth, amassed while in Haran (Gen. 12:4-5). Abraham sent his servant back to the region of Haran to procure a wife for his son Isaac (Gen. 24:10).
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People can be part of different cultures but be of the same biological stock
So there is nothing that says Abraham could not be a descendant of Hurrians OR share the same biological ancestry but adopted a different culture Jews are known for bearing J, E, T and G ancestry
and if don't believe in genetics then having a different haplogroup should not exclude Israelite ancestry and followers of the 12 Tribes chart would have to agree
But I think you are playing games, you don't really believe in that chart, you are scamming Brandon
Who knows if Shem was real but if he was it's hard to know his time period and then relate it to Hurrians. If he was before Hurrians there is nothing that says Hurrians could not have shared the same haplogroup
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^ Nah, you're done. You're an incompetent troll. You failed 200% when you said Hurrians possibly descend from Shem. What a clueless idiot. That archaeologist said word for word that the Kura-Araxes can be identified as Hurrians. She's not the only one who wrote that either, but I'm not going to waste time entertaining your madness.
Hurrians had NOTHING to do with Hebrews and I just referenced a source that demonstrated that as well.
This reminds me of when you falsely accused me of lying about the Kura-Araxes having hg J because you were too stupid to read the source I was posting that said they did have J.
You failed. Go troll another thread now. If I'm so wrong then why do you keep trying to engage to me, for literal weeks?
It's because you are coping.
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Hurrians had NOTHING to do with Hebrews and I just referenced a source that demonstrated that as well.
they may have had the same haplogroup
To say that is impossible is to lie to yourself and God
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: they may have had the same haplogroup
To say that is impossible is to lie to yourself and God
Lmfao yeah, and george washington may have been an alien.
You don't even believe in God so the fact that you try to invoke God just shows what a trolling devil you are.
Let me know when y'all find a source showing another civilization other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians bringing J into the Levant/Mesopotamia.
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My identity is not riding on this
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^ You sure do act like it is. You've come up with tons of retarded arguments that make no sense and contradict what the "genetic evidence" says. You constantly try to engage me and constantly interrupt the flow of the conversation between myself and others when I'm not even trying to deal with you. You sure you're not a J carrier? I wouldn't be surprised at this point. That's honestly what I'm starting to believe.
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You don't even believe in God so the fact that you try to invoke God just shows what a trolling devil you are.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: That's not trolling, this is literally what you believe -- that if someone studies and/or discusses a certain topic, they must believe or subscribe to it.
practice what you preach
My God is not your God
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^ Your god is Satan.
Go crawl back in your hole now.
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Maybe it could be an idea to start a thread specifically about the origin and ancestry of ancient Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. This thread was originally about IAM population, Natufians, Proto-Semitic, North African Component.
But just as a small contribution to the current discussion I post a video I stumbled over which also discusses the genetic origins of ancient Israelites
The samples they talk about in the video is not the ones from Abu Ghosh or the Tomb of the Shroud in Jerusalem, which are purportedly the only ones so far that contain DNA from ancient Israelites.
The samples in the video is from Megiddo and Abel Beth Maacah.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] Maybe it could be an idea to start a thread specifically about the origin and ancestry of ancient Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. This thread was originally about IAM population, Natufians, Proto-Semitic, North African Component.
then why didn't you do it?
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The samples they talk about in the video is not the ones from Abu Gosh or the Tomb of the shroud in Jerusalem, which are purportedly the only ones so far that contain DNA from ancient Israelites.
The samples in the video is from Megiddo and Abel Beth Maacah.
In that same thread on page 1, I posted the following image and they also show this article title in the video you just posted
^ this chart shows the Megiddo DNA This shows 15 males from the site and 8 females And also has DNA from other sites in ancient Israel:
Megiddo Tel Abel Beth Maacah Tel Hazor Yehud
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What sources do you have for Abu Gosh or the Tomb of the shroud in Jerusalem, having DNA from ancient Israelites?
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On Megiddo you just mentioned one sample But like I said there are 15 males, Y-DNA haplogroups include J1,J2, T1 and E1b1b1b2a1
Abel is T1 (Tel Abel Beth Maacah)
and mtDNA also recorded at these sites So it's not all J1 and uncertain as to if any are to regarded as "Israelites" I'm not sure if they found any ancient writing along with those remains
There is also another study of the copper age (Chalcolithic) where all males in a cave were haplogroup T
But asked you about Abu Gosh or the Tomb of the shroud in Jerusalem as for DNA
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I mentioned only the two since it was they which were presented in the video. The others were already posted in the closed thread.
I think the Abu Ghosh, or Kiryat Yearim, scientific article is not out yet, there are only a news article which was covered in the thread which was closed. The Y-DNA was J2
The samples they talk about in the video is not the ones from Abu Gosh or the Tomb of the shroud in Jerusalem, which are purportedly the only ones so far that contain DNA from ancient Israelites.
The samples in the video is from Megiddo and Abel Beth Maacah.
Tomb of the shroud is first century CE
Israelites c. 1000–586 BCE
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The samples tested vary in dates from the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age, and Iron Age. Unfortunately all these sites are in northern Israel and the southern sites have yet to be tested.
I'll just ignore Taz because he is an ignoramus who knows nothing about ancient cultures in the region being discussed. He just looked up Kura-Araxes and sticks with that straw doll despite the fact that hg J dating to paleolithic times and whose spread is linked to the Neolithic predates that culture and as I said there were other cultures in northern Mesopotamia such as the Hassunan, Halafian, and Samarran Cultures-- ALL of which predates Kura-Araxes.
The idiot cannot even make the proper distinction between physical population comprised of individuals whose ancestries are reflected in their genes, versus the material cultures they possessed, and what languages they spoke. Without such nuances and their contexts, there will always be confusion.
Thus Proto-Semitic while developing in Asia is ultimately derived from Africa (Afro-asiatic) brought into Asia by African immigrants. But languages are easily spread and adopted by other peoples. Thus I myself am a Filipino speaking English does that make me an ethnic Anglo??
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The samples tested vary in dates from the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age, and Iron Age. Unfortunately all these sites are in northern Israel and the southern sites have yet to be tested.
I'll just ignore Taz because he is an ignoramus who knows nothing about ancient cultures in the region being discussed. He just looked up Kura-Araxes and sticks with that straw doll despite the fact that hg J dating to paleolithic times and whose spread is linked to the Neolithic predates that culture and as I said there were other cultures in northern Mesopotamia such as the Hassunan, Halafian, and Samarran Cultures-- ALL of which predates Kura-Araxes.
Also we have the Israelites Israelites c. 1000–586 BCE
And above we are looking at Ashkelon the dating ranges from 1622-1042 BCE
There are several haplogroups on the chart for these sites including J1, J2 and others
Spaz say this got there by way of Kura-Araxes but if that is the case so what? That is before the Israelites
He acts like if (according to speculation) Kura- Araxes did the main spread of J in the region that no one after them was allowed to spread it more after them which is BS. Even if Kura-Araxes were the initial main mass spreaders that doesn't mean they were the only spreaders, J is still being spread to this day but someone didn't get the memo And it's even possible some of the the Israelites who came from outside Israel were descendants of Kura-Araxes if not of the same haplogroup/s
Transmission dynamics of Tazmanian devil facial tumor disease may lead to disease-induced extinction
Hamish McCallum, Menna Jones, Clare Hawkins, Rodrigo Hamede, Shelly Lachish, David L. Sinn, Nick Beeton, Billie Lazenby First published: 01 December 2009 https://doi.org/10.1890/08-1763.1
Yes, but the tomb of the Shroud is considered Jewish, and it seems that later Jews, at least partly are descendants of Israelites. Ancient Israelite DNA and ancient Jewish DNA are rarities.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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posted
Djehuti returns every 3 days to say "I'll just keep ignoring Taz"
Why can't he produce a source to substantiate what he has been claiming for weeks now?
Because he is PSEUDO.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Again projecting. YOU are obviously the straw queen because all you cited is Kura-Araxes when nobody in here ever said that was the culture that Abraham and his people were part of. Abraham came from northern Mesopotamia and there were a variety of cultures there.
Then can we please see you reference a source that shows hg J arriving into the Levant/Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes, since that is what you are claiming was the case?
You keep repeating this bs without any evidence to substantiate it.
How do you not understand what I am asking you, after weeks of me breaking it down in several different ways?
Are you seriously this dense?
I promise we can talk about the flood stories after you produce a source(s) showing hg J arriving in the Levant/Mesopotamia via a culture other than the Kura-Araxes.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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And "lioness" is so dense that he is still asserting the Israelites descended from J-carrying Hurrians even though I've demonstrated multiple times that the Hurrians were a completely different bloodline/lineage.
You two idiots (you and Djehuti) don't even realize you are arguing two completely different things. He is arguing that J was brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians (without any evidence) and you are arguing that the Hebrews descended from the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians.
ROFL, this is why Dr. Elhaik dismissed the psuedo claims you clowns were making.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The idiot cannot even make the proper distinction between physical population comprised of individuals whose ancestries are reflected in their genes, versus the material cultures they possessed, and what languages they spoke. Without such nuances and their contexts, there will always be confusion.
You're so dumb and desperate that you're now debunking your own arguments. The same can be said for the J-carrying Kura-Araxes/Hurrians who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia and assimilated into Hebrew/Semitic culture. You cannot have it both ways. The fact that they assimiliated into that culture at the time DOES NOT make them ethnic or bloodline Hebrews you idiot.
This is something you are making up in your head, even though the genetic sources AND an actual Ph.D geneticist with decades of experience say otherwise.
LOL!
Imagine if I kept coming to this thread every 3 days saying "omg I'm just going to keep ignoring Djehuti" but I continued to spew and repeat the same unsubstantiated nonsense without any sources even though I was being challenged.
The mods would jump in here and BAN my ass and start deleting my posts.
You pseudos can say anything you want about me but one thing you can't say is that I don't provide sources. I have a source to back up everything I claim and assert.
"The lioness" falsely accuses me of lying and making stuff up and what do I do? BOOM, I drop a source.
***** I can 100% guarantee that Djehuti is going to respond to all of this EXCEPT for the part where he is challenged to produce a source showing that a J-carrying civilization other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia -- a J-carrying civilization that could ACTUALLY be related to Hebrews. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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To Lioness, Ashkelon was NOT an Israelite city but a Philistine one. During the Iron Age the Philistines a foreign people colonized the coast from the Gaza strip to a little farther northeast.
Philistia
The bible identifies the five main cities of Philistia as Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Ekron, and Gath.
Genetic analysis has shown that the Philistines were indeed a foreign people whose origins are traced to the Aegean region which confirms the archaeology as their material possessions like pottery all show distinct Aegean features.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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^ As expected, ZERO sources were provided by Djehuti who has repeatedly asserted that J carriers other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia. Zero sources to demonstrate J being introduced to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization that could actually be related to Hebrews.
Just speculation, deflection and childish insults when sources should have been provided.
He will most likely indirectly respond to me sometime in the near future (as he has done several times already) in an attempt to save face, but NEVER will he produce a source to substantiate his faulty assertion.
I am the boogie man to this pseudo idiot who can't keep my name out of his mouth but NEVER produces a source to back up his opinion.
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posted
In many discussions people for different reasons often focus on the Y-DNA. But also the mtDNA can be interesting. Who were the women who accompanied the men? Where did they descend from? In the Haaretz article about Kiriath-Jearim they also mention the mtDNA found there:
quote:As for the mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the maternal side, the two individuals at Kiryat Yearim displayed two different haplogroups. One, T1a, is a very ancient ancestral haplogroup, with similar counterparts already found in individuals living in Jordan some 10,000 years ago and in southeastern Europe around 7,000 years ago, says Shaus. In later samples it is found in Iran and in those Canaanites sampled in Israel, as well as all the way to the Baltic and Ural Mountains.
This suggests that this haplogroup’s initial source may have been somewhere in Neolithic Anatolia or the Levant, and slowly spread with early farming, Shaus says.
The second mitochondrial haplogroup, called H87, hasn’t been previously detected in ancient DNA samples but is found in modern-day Basques, Tunisian Arabs, and Iraqis. This may point to an origin in the Mediterranean or the Near East, perhaps in the Arabian peninsula, he says. If so, this particular haplogroup may have spread with nomadic populations, Shaus concludes. In other words, the samples from two ancient Israelites hint at ancestry from peoples in both Anatolia and Arabia.
Much more data and research are needed to understand how significative these results are, whether they truly represent the ancestry of the region’s population at the time – and what they mean for our understanding of the broader story of the emergence of ancient Israel.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^ As expected, ZERO sources were provided by Djehuti who has repeatedly asserted that J carriers other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia. Zero sources to demonstrate J being introduced to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization that could actually be related to Hebrews.
Like he said you have created a straw man, a false goal post Some speculate that Kura-Araxes mass spreaders of J from the Caucasus area where Noah landed
You pretend if so these probable direct descendants of Noah the Kura-Araxes were the ONLY ones as if there was a rule only they were allowed to spread it, no one could also spread after them and you know that is bullshit
The Israelites come in after Kura-Araxes, invaded Israel and they are potentially J also but you want to pretend there was some rule only saying only Kura-Araxes could spread it
So you puts up this false goalpost to that effect And you are asking Djehuti to play your deceptive game
And doesn't even believe the human populations was wiped out by an alleged flood and then restarted with Noah and sons after landing in a boat
Thus people were all over the planet still living, some with haplogroups older than J or E
and J was in Anatolia before the Israelites, where Abraham (If he existed) may have lived before migrating to Israel
So you are asking somebody to make this false goal in a biblical timeline > who does not believe in a biblical timeline. He believes humanity starts around 2 million years ago and is continuous since then
Noah and sons if real were the first post-flood Caucasians
tell me if I am lying
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You pretend if so these probable direct descendants of Noah the Kura-Araxes were the ONLY ones as if there was a rule only they were allowed to spread it, no one could also spread after them and you know that is bullshit
STILL waiting for one of you gaslighting trolls to produce a source demonstrating a civilization OTHER than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians bringing J into the Levant/Mesopotamia, like you keep asserting.
The Kura-Araxes/Hurrians were responsible for bringing J to the Levant/Mesopotamia and they had zero relation to Hebrews.
If I'm playing a game then why do you clowns keep responding to me and making claims that YOU can't substantiate?
It's because you are coping.
"Lioness", you are a J carrier aren't you?
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So you are asking somebody to make this false goal in a biblical timeline > who does not believe in a biblical timeline. He believes humanity starts around 2 million years ago and is continuous since then
Thank you for acknowleging that djehuti DOES NOT believe in the Bible. I already knew this and this 200% explains why he is trying to fit squares into circles.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] You pretend if so these probable direct descendants of Noah the Kura-Araxes were the ONLY ones as if there was a rule only they were allowed to spread it, no one could also spread after them and you know that is bullshit
STILL waiting for one of you gaslighting trolls to produce a source demonstrating a civilization OTHER than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians bringing J into the Levant/Mesopotamia, like you keep asserting.
On a mass level I assume. One ancient family migrating cannot be accounted for
The Islamic conquest by the Arabs is an example of mass spreading of J
this was all under their control at this point
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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^ Can you produce a genetic paper demonstrating a civilization (other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians) bringing hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia during the same time period(s) as the Biblical Abraham story? A civilization that is known to be Hebrew or related to the Hebrews?
That is what the point of contention was.
And this is LITERALLY what Djehuti and now you as well are asserting.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^ Can you produce a genetic paper demonstrating a civilization (other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians) bringing hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia during the same time period(s) as the Biblical Abraham story? A civilization that is known to be Hebrew or related to the Hebrews?
That is what the point of contention was.
And this is LITERALLY what Djehuti and now you as well are asserting.
I did what you asked, you owe me $300 but know you are moving the goal post
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
^ Can you produce a genetic paper demonstrating a civilization (other than the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians) bringing hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia during the same time period(s) as the Biblical Abraham story?
this is a new straw man, false goal post your setting up
Kura-Araxes is before Abraham yet to pretend they are the same time period
Abraham, if he existed was born around 1800 BCE
The Kura–Araxes culture was an archaeological culture that existed from about 4000 BC until about 2000 BC (other sources: 3500 to 2500 bc)
So the J was spread BEFORE Abraham was even born and his migration from was later even And this is assuming the Kura-Araxes even spread J around (theory not fact, there is only one even identified remains that is J)
So since Abraham , if he existed might have been J, since he comes AFTER Kura-Araxes THEN STRAW MAN QUESTIONS ABOUT KURA-ARAXES ARE IRRELEVANT
Above human remains bearing J all over the region see chart column TMRC, that is average date between the high and low estimates on the far right columns. So we have 4000 years ago going back to 31,000 > prior to Abraham
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: during the same time
^ irrational requirement
As for Israel if the Israelites invaded as the bible said, they could have been the ones who brought J there and the indigenous Canaanites were possibly E or some J could have already been there
Haplgroup J in Israel: Tel Yehud 2500-2000 BCE
Abraham, if he existed was born around 1800 BCE
let that sink in
And, Arabs spread J to North and East Africa
>> meaning that anybody can post-KuraAraxes at any point in time since can be LATER SPREADERS OF J
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: this is a new straw man, false goal post your setting up
Yep, this is what I get for entertaining a trolling idiot who I already knew is a trolling idiot.
That is literally the same question I've been asking on every page, anyone can scroll back and look. The entire point of contention is who brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia during the relevant time period(s) of the Abraham story.
And that's literally how I worded the question when I asked Dr. Elhaik over a month ago, remember?
🤡
You now call it a strawman because you know damn well you can't demonstrate anyone other than Hurrians bringing J there during that time period.
Then in your previous post, your remedial ass posted a map of J being spread in 750 CE, thousands of years after the relevant time period.
ROFL what an idiot.
Back to ignoring you, undercover J carrier. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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And that's literally how I worded the question when I asked Dr. Elhaik over a month ago, remember?
in his reply to you he gave to argument or explanation as to why he thinks Abraham (If he existed) was E
I suspect the reason is that Elhaik himself is E
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
That is literally the same question I've been asking on every page, anyone can scroll back and look. The entire point of contention is who [b] brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia during the relevant time period(s) of the Abraham story.
witless buffoon, that was to demonstrate a point, that Kura-Araxes spread J other AFTER Kura-Araxes can CONTINUE to spread J
And since Abraham came AFTER Kura-Araxes He could have been one of these J spreaders
see how that works
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