Topic: IAM population, Natufians, Proto-Semitic, North African Component
Tazarah
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"djehuti", change your display name to "djbooty" because your scholarship is straight booty and that's why you are crying about me like a woman right now instead of producing a source to back up your pseudo claims.
****** Future readers; scroll back and pay attention to how when it's just me and Djehuti posting in this thread about haplogoup J he gets COMPLETELY SILENT because he knows I'm going to press his ass to show a source for his BS claims. He then changes the subject and goes "back to the original topic" of the thread; and only has the nerve to start talking about me again when someone like "the lioness" rears his head.
But even then, he refuses to provide a genetic source that says J carriers OTHER than Kura-Araxes/Hurrians set up shop in the Levant/Mesopotamia to back up his claims about Abraham being a J carrier.
*** Keep in mind, an expert geneticist with decades of experience (Dr. Eran Elhaik) has already dismissed this theory about Abraham having J.
Imagine getting bested by a "BHI" and then obsessively crying instead of producing a source to back up your claims.
ROFL
I thought Google was helping you out Djehuti? 🤣
*** Instead of crying about how much you don't like Tazarah, why don't you guys rub your three brains together and come up with a genetic source that actually says J carriers OTHER than Kura-Araxes/Hurrians set up shop in the Levant/Mesopotamia, like how you claim was the case?
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: *** STILL waiting for djehuti the google scholar or lioness the blackfacing troll to provide a genetic source that says J carriers OTHER than Kura-Araxes/Hurrians set up shop in the Levant/Mesopotamia, which would make it somehow possible for Abraham's story to align with the theory of haplogroup J....
Hey, moron! We've already provided you SEVERAL sources already, but of course you ignore them. NONE of these sources mention anything about hg J being spread by Kura-Araxes. Why is that? Because...
Y haplogroup J* (~45 thousand years ago), J1-M267 (~20,000 years ago), Kura–Araxes Culture (c. 3,400 B.C.E. — c. 2,000 B.C.E.)
So you can keep living in your Black Hebrew Israelite fairy tale, the reality remains.
By the way, you are obviously suffering from psychotic delusions. Nobody is crying over you maybe laughing. You are a joke that is good for nothing but entertainment.
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Tazarah
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^ *** Which source are you referring to? WHICH source that you referenced identifies a non-Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization bringing J markers into the Levant/Mesopotamia????
All you've referenced is sources talking about J in the Levant/Mesopotamia, but that isn't the point of contention.
I've demonstrated that J was brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia by Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilizations who had absolutely nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews.
Which source did YOU reference that attributes the arrival of J to a non-Hurrian/Kura-Araxes civlization?
Post it RIGHT NOW in your next response.
The cognitive dissonance is REAL.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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posted
^ Don't play dumber than you really are! Go back and look at all the sources I cited. How can Kura-Araxes be identified a with an haplogroup that preceded it by tens of thousands of years?!
Popular tradition, however, considers the Marsh Arabs as a foreign group, of unknown origin, which arrived in the marshlands when the rearing of water buffalo was introduced to the region.
Results: To shed some light on the paternal and maternal origin of this population, Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was surveyed in 143 Marsh Arabs and in a large sample of Iraqi controls. Analyses of the haplogroups and sub-haplogroups observed in the Marsh Arabs revealed a prevalent autochthonous Middle Eastern component for both male and female gene pools, with weak South-West Asian and African contributions, more evident in mtDNA.
A higher male than female homogeneity is characteristic of the Marsh Arab gene pool, likely due to a strong male genetic drift determined by socio-cultural factors (patrilocality, polygamy, unequal male and female migration rates).
Conclusions: Evidence of genetic stratification ascribable to the Sumerian development was provided by the Y-chromosome data where the J1-Page08 branch reveals a local expansion, almost contemporary with the Sumerian City State period that characterized Southern Mesopotamia. On the other hand, a more ancient background shared with to Northern Mesopotamia is revealed by the less represented Y-chromosome lineage J1-M267*.
Overall our results indicate that the introduction of water buffalo breeding and rice farming, most likely from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of autochthonous people of the region. Furthermore, a prevalent Middle Eastern ancestry of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also the Sumerians were most likely autochthonous and not of Indian or South Asian ancestry.Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tazarah
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I'm speaking english, right? Pretty sure I am. Let me help you out.
Djehuti: "I believe Abraham was J because J was in Mesopotamia during the time period of the Biblical Abraham story, and because J went to the Levant during the time period of the Biblical Abraham story."
Tazarah: "OK, but there are plenty of genetic sources that say J came to the Levant/Mesopotamia before and during the same time period of the Biblical Abraham story via the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization, a civilization that had nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews. Are you saying that Abraham was a J carrying descendant of the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization?"
Djehuti: "No I do not believe that Abraham was a descendant of the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization. Just because I believe Abraham had J does not necessarily mean he was a descendant of the Kura-Araxes/Hurrian civilization."
Tazarah: "OK, then can you please provide a genetic source identifying a DIFFERENT civilization that brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia during the relevant time period(s)? A civilization that could ACTUALLY be related to Hebrews and Abraham?"
Djehuti: "Omg here's a source showing that J was in Mesopotamia."
Tazarah: "OK, but I am not denying that. Can you please provide a genetic source identifying a DIFFERENT civilization that brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia during the relevant time period(s)? A civilization that could ACTUALLY be related to Hebrews and Abraham?"
****** I'm pretty sure that any unbiased and rational minded people reading this dialogue (even those who DO NOT believe black people are Israelites) can see that you are playing a game. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^How can Kura-Araxes be identified a with an haplogroup that preceded it by tens of thousands of years?!
The same can literally be said about any other haplogroup. Now all of a sudden haplogroups are irrelevant when we don't like what they reveal.
LOL.
Imagine if I started saying this BS about hg E.
According to this logic I can say that hg E is not what you claim it is, simply because its origin precedes whatever you claim it is.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You're so pseudo. What a joke.
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Taz it goes back to Noah, founder of the Kura-Araxes culture. Abraham invented the Hebrew tribe later
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Tazarah
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^^^^^ ROFL!
Let's see what Djehuti says
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: The same can literally be said about any other haplogroup. Now all of a sudden haplogroups are irrelevant when we don't like what they reveal.
LOL.
LOL Indeed. When did I say "haplogroups are irrelevant"??! All you do lie and construct idiotic straw dolls.
I don't know what the hell lioness is saying in her prior post about Noah and Kura-Araxes but my original point is that Kura-Araxes is just one of MANY cultures associated with J carriers and is therefore irrelevant. YOU are the one who brought up Kura-Araxes when they are not the originators of haplogroup J but are among many cultures who carried it including Sumerian and early Semitic speakers.
quote:Imagine if I started saying this BS about hg E.
Not hard to do since all you've been doing is saying BS about hg J.
quote:According to this logic I can say that hg E is not what you claim it is, simply because its origin precedes whatever you claim it is.
But I've never claimed hg E to be anything but African because that's where it originated. Meanwhile Abraham was not an African but from northern Mesopotamia which was a heartland of hg J.
quote:🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You're so pseudo. What a joke.
No. You're so dumbo, it's not a joke. It's actually quite annoying. You are either low IQ OR a typical psychotic troll who is need of mental help. I hope not both.
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Tazarah
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^^^^ **** FUTURE READERS, PEEP HOW THIS CLOWN ONCE AGAIN STRAIGHT UP REFUSES TO ADDRESS THE MAIN ISSUE AND INSTEAD CHOOSES TO BREAK DOWN AND RESPOND TO A COMMENT OF MINE THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT OF CONTENTION.
I NEVER SAID J ORIGINATED WITH THE KURA-ARAXES (I ALREADY MADE THIS CLEAR MULTIPLE TIMES) AND HE STILL FAILS TO SHARE A SOURCE THAT SAYS J CARRIERS OTHER THAN THE KURA-ARAXES/HURRIANS SET UP SHOP IN THE LEVANT/MESOPOTAMIA DURING THE RELEVANT TIME PERIOD(S) LIKE HOW HE CLAIMS.....BECAUSE HE KNOWS SUCH SOURCES DO NOT EXIST.
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DO WE SEE A PATTERN HERE?
ROFL, STOP WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME
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Tazarah
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And yes I typed in all caps to put extreme emphasis on the fact that this pseudo clown is playing games and blowing smoke. Your beloved J carriers who invaded the Levant/Mesopotamia during the relevant time period(s) were Kura-Araxes/Hurrians who had nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews and you have ZERO sources to demonstrate that any other J-carrying civilizations brought J to that area, let alone any J-carrying civilizations that could possibly be related to Abraham/Hebrews.
Don't even bother responding if you don't have any sources because that's all I'm going to ask for -- I don't give a damn about your silly rhetoric.
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^ Yes everyone in this forum including lurkers can see how irrational and unhinged you are. The rants of a lunatic don't mean much. But I guess you've succeeded.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Kura-Araxes/Hurrians who had nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews
wishful thinking
That's like saying Noah had nothing to do with Abraham Kura-Araxes are obviously decedents of Noah, prove they aren't
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Tazarah
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^ Wishful thinking? It's Biblical and "genetic" fact that they had nothing to do with Israelites. That's why Djbooty has to play games and pretend the J in the Levant/Mesopotamia had a source other than Kura-Araxes/Hurrians, with zero evidence that it came from a different source. You haven't already figured out the game that he's playing?
Djbooty himself already admit on the other page that Kura-Araxes/Hurrians had nothing to do with Abraham.
Rofl, I literally gave him days to drop a source that supports what he's claiming and he can't. It's all a joke at this point.
quote: "While Hurrians are not mentioned by that name in the Bible, scholars suggest they had contact with the Israelites during the second millennium BC. When Abraham stayed in Haran of northwest Mesopotamia, he was living in the major region of Hurrian influence. Some scholars also suggest Hurrians lived in Canaan before and during the Israelite period."
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes everyone in this forum including lurkers can see how irrational and unhinged you are. The rants of a lunatic don't mean much. But I guess you've succeeded.
The irony of somebody posting this when that person can't provide a source to support their claim, after being begged to provide the source for days.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Tazarah
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And to Brandon (who has a habit of making glaring inaccurate assessments about what I actually believe), I never said anything about skin color so I have no idea why you claimed I want to "exclude J carriers" because they don't have dark skin. It's about lineage. It's about what the "genetic evidence" says right? Oh and I'm a "BHI" remember? I subscribe to a 12 tribes chart on which only 3 of the 12 Israelite tribes are black.
So no, it's not about color, and I never said it was. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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Tazarah
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-
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Kura-Araxes/Hurrians had nothing to do with Abraham.
Kura-Araxes culture came before Hurrians and there is no conclusive evidence that the Hurrians were descendants of the Kura-Araxes culture.
there is no need to keep trying to pair up Kura-Araxes and Hurrians and it's suspect that you keep doing that. Deal with each one separately
As we can see Ararat is right in the middle of Kura-Araxes > and supposedly Noah and his sons and their wives were the first humans in that region. Let that sink in We see on the map Kura and Araxes rivers, hence the name of the culture there, the region where the ark landed
Kura-Araxes overlaps the time Noah lived. Thus it would be reasonable to guess that they might direct descendants of Noah
> and you can't say Kura-Araxes had nothing to do with Abraham. Maybe you could if you tack on Hurrians but not about Kura-Araxes.
The best you can do is say Kura-Araxes may or may not have had something to do with Noah but you can't exclude it
And then if we move up to Abraham, he had said he may have been Turkish
> So he is still in Anatolia before moving to Israel! compared to Ham and Japeth who moved elsewhere
So while their decedents moved out of the region Abraham was still in Anatolia where Kura-Araxes was so it's not unreasonable that they might all be of the same stock but if you keep taking on Hurrians I know what you are up to. Problem is it's two different cultures.
Forget Hurrians, Kura-Araxes was earlier there is several hundreds years of separation. Later the Israelites slaughtered the Canaanites (natives of Israel who were possibly descendants of Natufians) Taz you made this bed now you got to sleep in it
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Tazarah
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^ I'm not going to entertain a remedial idiot who just claimed a few posts ago that Noah founded the Kura-Araxes culture, which would have to mean Noah was J, and which would also have to mean that all currently existing Y markers would have to be J or a downstream mutation of J.
What an idiot.
I've already provided a source(s) that linked hurrians to the kura-araxes, you've already demonstrated that you haven't even been keeping up with the sources I've posted.
All the evidence shows that the Kura-Araxes brought J into the Levant/Mesopotamia and they were not Hebrews or related to Abraham. Nobody here has shown any evidence of J coming from somewhere else NOR will anyone do so.
Have a nice day.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: a few posts ago that Noah founded the Kura-Araxes culture, which would have to mean Noah was J, and which would also have to mean that all currently existing Y markers would have to be J or a downstream mutation of J.
That's a ridiculous argument Pick any haplogroup you like If Noah was of that haplogroup all currently existing Y markers would have to be of Noah's same haplogroup No double standards fool
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Tazarah
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^ My point exactly. Now you get it
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^ My point exactly. Now you get it
These biological markers exist and can be seen in a microscope
So if you are a believer in the bible, just the way God created new languages at Babel he could have created new haplogroups instantly
So you can't dismiss these biological markers. They exist if you are a bible believer you just need some explanation along the lines of a miracle or just the fact that biblically God created human beings instantly not from a gradual millions of years long evolution, that these things could be created instantly by God at any time
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Haplogroup G2b-M377 is a Y-chromosome haplogroup and is defined by the presence of the M377 mutation.[1] It is a branch of Haplogroup G2, which in turn is defined by the presence of the M201 mutation.[2]
G2b is a major Y chromosome haplogroup, and yet unique. It was found among Pashtuns, who are classified as Iranic and on much lower scale among all major Jewish groups, Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians[4](See also page covering Jews with Haplogroup G (Y-DNA)) G2b presents more mysteries regarding its origin and distribution than virtually any other major Y haplogroup. Haplogroups that are rare in certain regions are more common in another, and have rather clear origins in other places where they are more commonly found. G2b has none of these obvious characteristics.
One very early G2b sample, although it was derived as a negative for the SNP M377, was found in the remains of an individual dating back to 7000 BCE at Wezmeh Cave, a site near Eslamabad-e Gharb in the Kermanshah province in western Iran.[26] Specifically, it belonged to G-Y37100.
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Tazarah
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You found a paper that says two kura-araxes samples had G. So what? That doesn't mean they didn't also have J you idiot. And one of the sources I referenced acknowledged they also had G.
The point of contention has always been that the Kura-Araxes brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia and they had nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews. I referenced at least 2 papers where actual genetic scholars (something you are not) wrote that J was brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia specifically by the Kura-Araxes.
Go write an email to those scholars and tell them to retract their work. Since you know so much.
You were too afraid to write to Dr. Elhaik so of course I don't expect you to write any other scholar.
Once again you demonstrate that you are not keeping up with the sources I post and you're just typing to troll because you love to make yourself look like an idiot. Why do I even respond to your garbage? Now you see why I try so hard to avoid directly dealing with you.
quote:"Interestingly, an ancient individual from the Caucasus belonging to J1a1b-Z18375 is found in the assemblage of the Bronze Age Kura-Araxes cultural tradition. This cultural tradition probably originated in the Caucasus and may explain the radiation of this branch."
⦾ Y-DNA of Kura-Araxes culture (3500 to 2500 bc) is hardly known yet, except for one instance of J1 and two of G2 and varied mitochondrial DNA. They may have spread J in the region and to the Levant
⦾ According to the bible Noah's ark landed on Ararat believed to be a mountain in Turkey in the middle of what would be the Kura-Araxes culture, people around the nearby rivers Kura and Araxes
⦾ Years later Abraham, if he existed, may have remained in the same region before migrating to Israel
⦾ Thus it would not be surprising if some of the the Kura-Araxes people are direct descendants of of Noah and/or Abraham if they existed although this is unknown
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Tazarah
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^ Peep how this incompetent idiot falsely accused me of lying about the Kura-Araxes having J markers and said I need to apologize. But he doesn't apologize after getting caught falsely accusing me of something for like the 5th or 6th time. And he STILL doesn't comprehend how all the evidence presented makes it impossible for Abraham to be a J carrier since the people who introduced J to the Levant/Mesopotamia had nothing to do with Hebrews or Abraham. Nor will he provide evidence of J being introduced to the Levant/Mesopotamia by any people who actually could be related to Abraham or Hebrews. Now he's trying to make a connection based solely on the fact that Noah's ark landed in the Kura-Araxes region.
Rofllllllllll.
Straight clown.
All the trolling you did amounted to nothing as usual.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: And to Brandon (who has a habit of making glaring inaccurate assessments about what I actually believe), I never said anything about skin color so I have no idea why you claimed I want to "exclude J carriers" because they don't have dark skin. It's about lineage. It's about what the "genetic evidence" says right? Oh and I'm a "BHI" remember? I subscribe to a 12 tribes chart on which only 3 of the 12 Israelite tribes are black.
So no, it's not about color, and I never said it was.
Tazarah
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^ Maybe because J does not descend from E?
If skin color is what I care about, then why am I hypothetically including european Jewish people in any appeals I make to haplogroup E? You realize that not everyone with E markers are black or dark-skinned right?
And if skin color is what I care about then why do I personally subscribe to the 12 tribes chart, on which only 3 of the 12 Israelite tribes (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) are supposed to be black?
According to my own personal worldview, only 25% of the 12 tribes of Israel are foundationally "black".
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According to the bible Noah is the progenitor of the first post-flood humans in the Caucasus Mountain region and this is where post-flood humanity began. No one else was there when he arrived with his sons and their wives and children. Later, Abraham was still in the same region before migrating to Israel
They did Genome-wide analysis of 110 ancient individuals from places in these regions
For example 22 from this place in Turkey
Here are a couple with the dates
Arslantepe, Turkey
ART001 (H156 S138) is a female in pit burial from Period VI D2. Evidence of epicondylitis was observed on both humeri. The remains also exhibit evidence of severe osteoarthritis. Dating of human bone: 2470-2301 cal BCE (3908 ± 26 BP, MAMS-33533).
▪ ART004 (H238 S156) is an old male in a pit dug under and sealed by the floor of a house. Period VII. Dating of human bone: 3758-3642 cal BCE (4906 ± 26 BP, MAMS-33534)
_______________________________
Other locations in Turkey are listed and elsewhere
example, a place with older Turkey samples six individuals from Tell Kurdu, Turkey
▪ KRD003 (TK_22:2) is a mature adult placed in a simple pit in a tightly flexed position. The burial included a small painted necked-jar placed near the head as well as a Dark Faced Burnished globular jar discovered by the feet. Dating of human bone: 5661-5630 cal BCE (6739 ± 23 BP, MAMS-40665).
▪ KRD004 (TK_25:80) is an adult male placed in a pit in a tightly flexed position. A small Dark Faced Burnished necked-jar was discovered by the head. A partial cattle mandible had been left just over the neck of the jar. Dating of human bone: 5703-5639 cal BCE (6766 ± 25 BP, MAMS-40666). ____________________________________________
Then if you go to the Table S9 supplement you can see each individuals haplogroup (or go there first look at the haplogroups, and go back to the main article to see their date
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Tazarah
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Cool, that line of thinking was already dealt with.
👍🏾
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Cool, that line of thinking was already dealt with.
👍🏾
No,
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Now he's trying to make a connection based solely on the fact that Noah's ark landed in the Kura-Araxes region.
That is a misleading comment
Biblically Noah did not land in the Kura-Araxes region, that is ridiculous He landed in a place with no living human inhabitants. Because Noah, his sons and wives are at the starting point before there was any spread elsewhere, ancestors of the Kura-Araxes
This is where post-flood humanity began, in the Caucasus
Thus if Kura-Araxes spread J later to the Levant or other places that is irrelevant.
And later, Abraham (If a "Turk") was still in the vicinity before migrating to Israel. So ancient Turkey is the place to look for potential Abraham-similar people BEFORE Kura-Araxes BEFORE spread of J
Later Joshua, likely bearing Haplogroup J (something common in that Anatolia region invaded and slaughtered the native Canaanites, that is what resembles the spread of J supposedly by Kura-Araxes.
Why don't anthologists says Joshua may have been Kura-Araxes? Because there are no remains of Joshua or any patriarch so they are in the realm of religious mythology until proved real
So you didn't deal with anything. The Caucasus is the starting point BEFORE any spread of J and Noah was right in the center of that.
Right here for instance is before Kura-Araxes (3500 to 2500 bc) >>
Tell Kurdu, Turkey
▪ KRD003 (TK_22:2) is a mature adult placed in a simple pit in a tightly flexed position. The burial included a small painted necked-jar placed near the head as well as a Dark Faced Burnished globular jar discovered by the feet. Dating of human bone: 5661-5630 cal BCE (6739 ± 23 BP, MAMS-40665).
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Tazarah
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Even your buddy djehuti disapproved when you tried asserting Noah was J.
Crazy how it went from "Tazarah is lying about Kura-Araxes having J" ..... to "it's ok if they had J because Noah...."
The only thing you are remotely good at is moving the goalpost when one of your talking points gets dismantled. The only reason I even responded to you for this long was to show future readers how full of sh*t you are and how deceptive you are willing to be when it comes to black people like myself identifying as Israelites.
So enjoy talking to yourself, nobody is reading your gibberish.
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^ I've already said my piece. I'm not arguing with your dumb ass anymore. Haplogroup E (common in Natufians) was in the Levant prior to the introduction of haplogroup J from the north which is associated with the Biblical story of Abraham's immigration.
Whether Abraham was a real person is still a matter of conjecture but unlike Noah, Abraham was a legendary figure whose name is not only mentioned in the Bible but in other ancient texts associated with a number of tribes which is why the most popular theory that many skeptics have is that 'Abraham' may very well have represented a tribal confederation of some sort.
Noah on the other hand is not a legendary figure but a mythical one because thus far he is only mentioned in Biblical texts as a progenitor of all nations (known to the Middle East) after the Deluge including nations in Africa and Europe. So to argue about what haplogroup Noah carried is a mute argument. It's like arguing what haplogroup Vaivasvata Manu (the Hindu Noah) had.
For those interested here are a couple more sources on the historicity of the bible in Bronze Age times:
Tazarah
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^ Djehuti is back, but once again without a single scholarly source demonstrating that haplogroup J (which he claims is Abraham) was brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization(s) other than the Kura-Araxes like how he claims. The Kura-Araxes were non-Hebrews who brought J to the Levant/Mesopotamia.
All the available "genetic evidence" shows that J was brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia by the Kura-Araxes/Hurrians, and the Kura-Araxes had nothing to do with Abraham or Hebrews at all, which means that Abraham was not a J carrier.
Djehuti has repeatedly failed to produce a source that shows J being introduced to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization(s) that could actually be related to Abraham or Hebrews because no such evidence exists.
I happily rest my case.
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To know if Abraham really existed and which haplogroup he eventually had we must find his body. According to some believers he is buried in the cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the West Bank. For different reasons it will probably be rather difficult to get a permit to excavate the cave.
When it concerns Noah there are four or five different locations where he is said to be buried. The locations are in Azerbaijan, Iraq, Jordan and Turkey.
posted
Abraham was not a jew, he was a Hebrew, Abram was a Cushite
The word “Hebrew” appears for the first time in this week’s Torah portion. , the patriarch Abraham, received the shocking news that his cousin, Lot, had been taken away as a prisoner of war. According to the text, “a fugitive brought the news to Abram the Hebrew (Avram ha’ivri) ” (Gen. 14:13).
quote:biblical scholar Nahum Sarna, concluded that “Hebrew” was really an ethnic designation , akin to “Canaanite” and “Moabite.” Other theories abound. Whatever the case, by the time of King David, some three thousand years ago, the term “the Hebrew” had largely disappeared. For most of recorded history, the descendants of “Abram the Hebrew” were known simply as Jews.
Ivri & Ifri, Afri, are the same word...
quote:Āfrī (singular Āfer)[1] was a Latin name for the inhabitants of Africa, referring in its widest sense to all the lands south of the Mediterranean (Ancient Libya).
Etymology The etymology of the term remains uncertain. It may derive from a Punic term for an indigenous population of the area surrounding Carthage. The name is usually connected with Phoenician ʿafar "dust"[4] (also found in other Semitic languages), but a 1981 hypothesis asserted that it stems from the Berber ifri (plural ifran) "cave", in reference to cave dwellers. The same word may be found in the name of the Banu Ifran from Algeria and Tripolitania, a Berber tribe originally from Yafran (also known as Ifrane) in northwestern Libya.[7] The classical historian Flavius Josephus asserted that descendants of Abraham's grandson Epher invaded the region and gave it their own name
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: To know if Abraham really existed and which haplogroup he eventually had we must find his body. According to some believers he is buried in the cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the West Bank. For different reasons it will probably be rather difficult to get a permit to excavate the cave.
When it concerns Noah there are four or five different locations where he is said to be buried. The locations are in Azerbaijan, Iraq, Jordan and Turkey.
The Ark (if such thing ever existed) did supposedly land in todays Turkey. It is said that there were ten generations from Noah to Abraham.
The problem is some people don't know the difference between legendary and mythical. The former has more historical evidence than the latter. The myth of the Great Flood and ark is shared by a variety of cultures from the Indian Vaivasvata Manu to the Greek Deucalion. Most of the myths are from Southwest Asia-- Hebrew Noah, Akkadian Utnapishtim, Sumerian Ziusudra. Interestingly the Egyptians and other Africans do NOT have a flood myth.
The idiot Taz says I have no evidence of any culture introducing J from the north, when I already cited several papers pages ago showing immigration from northern Mesopotamia. Again the Kura-Araxes is a straw doll, because there were multiple cultures in that region not just Kura-Araxes and there was immigration into the Levant from the Chalcolithic to the Bronze Age. This is why I don't debate morons.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
^ Hey mr. dunce, you NEVER showed any evidence of a civilization other than the Kura-Araxes bringing J markers INTO the Levant/Mesopotamia. All your sources start with J already being in the Levant/Mesopotamia, and not where they came from.
That's what I've been challenging you to provide the entire time, I'm sure eveyone has been readinf the comments so I've no idea why you are trying to act like you don't understand.
All the sources I've referenced show J being brought to the Levant/Mesopotamia by the Kura-araxes civilization which had nothing to do with Hebrews or Abraham.
If I'm wrong then man the f*ck up and cite a source that shows a different civilization bringing J into the Levant/Mesopotamia, instead of indirectly addressing me like a clown. Crying to other people makes you look like a loser.
All you do is spew bullsh*t and try to play genius, then you start playing dumb when someone actually challenges you to present a source that substantiates what you are asserting.
And what do you know, now you're making up nonsense about Africans and Egyptians not having flood stories.
quote: "Although the continent has relatively few flood legends African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples.
Egypt
Floods were seen as beneficial in Ancient Egypt, and similar to the case with Japan, Ancient Egypt did not have any cataclysmic flood myths picturing it as destructive rather than fertile force. One "flood myth" in Egyptian mythology involves the god Ra and his daughter Sekhmet. Ra sent Sekhmet to destroy part of humanity for their disrespect and unfaithfulness which resulted in the gods overturning wine jugs to simulate a great flood of blood, so that by getting her drunk on the wine and causing her to pass out her slaughter would cease. This is commemorated in a wine drinking festival during the annual Nile flood."
posted
^ Nice try but a flood of wine to simulate blood for a blood thirsty goddess is not the same as an actual deluge of rain water. GTFOHPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No cultural artifacts were associated with the human remains, however, their archaeological context revealed that these were primary burials with the bodies placed in decubitus position, inside pits that were intrusive in the Neolithic levels (Fig. 1b). Interestingly, while the two burials were located very close to each other, no evidence of a Late Antiquity cemetery was documented at the site.
Genomic analysis of the individuals: all four methods confirmed low levels of contamination. Two biological sex inference methods26,27 identified syr005 to be a male and syr013 a female. Individuals syr005 and syr013 were determined to carry mitochondrial haplogroups J2a2a1a1 and R0a2, respectively. Both haplogroups are common in the Arabian Peninsula, Near East and parts of Africa28,29 in concordance with the broad geographical location of the samples. In addition, the Y chromosome of syr005 was determined as haplogroup J, which is the most common haplogroup across the Middle East30 (Supplementary Table S2). In order to explore general patterns of genetic affinity to modern populations, principal component analysis (PCA) was performed projecting the two newly sequenced Syrian individuals on a broad set of modern Middle Eastern, European and North African groups (Fig.2a). The two Late Antiquity Syrian individuals fell close to Saudi, Turkish and Middle Eastern genomic variation and to some Jewish populations but do not show close genetic affinities to the geographically close Lebanese samples from12. Further, to obtain a better understanding of the regional variation, a second PCA was conducted, limited to 37 groups from the Middle East, Arabian Peninsula and Caucasus. Here, the Syrian samples fell close to Yemenite Jews, Saudi and Bedouins genomic variation (Fig. 2b). Notably, within these genotyped Bedouins, there are two sub-groups, both sampled in the Negev in Israel: Bedouin A and Bedouin B2 that were observed to have distinct distributions in the PCA: while Bedouin A seem to be more widely dispersed and overlap with other groups from surrounding regions, Bedouin B (with the exception of one individual) form a small cluster separate from all other groups in the region. From these two sub-groups, individuals syr005 and syr013 fall between the two Bedouin groups, and show a clear genetic differentiation from relevant modern-day Levantine populations (i.e. Druze, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese). Further, to gain insight into the genetic composition of ancient and modern populations, an unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis was performed. ADMIXTURE was first run with a larger set of individuals (1073 individuals) from Europe and the Middle East (73 populations). For K = 2, 3 and 5, all iterations with different random seeds converged to consistent results (Supplementary Fig. S2). Therefore, we consider K=5 as a compromise between resolution and robustness of results. At K = 2, mostly north Europeans are differentiated from south Europeans, Middle Easterners and Arabian Peninsula groups. At K = 3, a new component emerged in Caucasian and Middle Eastern groups. At K = 4, another component appeared in south Europeans and Middle Eastern groups. At K = 5, a component exclusive to Middle Eastern and Arabian Peninsula groups appears (Fig. 3). This new component was seen at high proportions in Bedouins, Saudi, Yemenite Jews and our Syrian samples. Interestingly, within the Bedouins, Bedouin B was composed almost entirely of this new component. The separate cluster of Bedouin B could be the result of genetic drift, although its presence in other populations from the Arabian Peninsula suggests some degree of separate ancestry among these groups. The Late Antiquity Syrian individuals showed similar genetic composition to Bedouin B and some Saudi individuals.Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Nice try but a flood of wine to simulate blood for a blood thirsty goddess is not the same as an actual deluge of rain water. GTFOH
It was a flood sent by Egyptian gods to destroy humans you idiot. So now the type of flood and symbolism matters? You just said there was no flood story you clown. And ignore the evidence of African tribes having flood stories after you claimed none of them did.
And that's not even the only flood myth the Egyptians had, but I'm not going to go into all that because you'll just use that a way to deflect from hg J.
Place this all on top of the fact that you repeatedly fail to show J being introduced to the Levant/Mesopotamia by a civilization OTHER than the Kura-Araxes.
You're 100% pseudo, I have no idea why you keep coming back here to embarrass yourself.
😂😂😂😂😂
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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^ The idiot obviously knows nothing about Egyptian mythology let alone the myth of Ra's Vengeful Eye. In the myth because humankind became rebellious and wicked, Re sent his wrathful 'Eye' the lion goddess Sekhmet to slaughter humans in the form of drought and pestilence and or her actually slaying humans en masse. Sekhmet is similar to the Hindu goddess Kali in that she was bloodthirsty and did not relent, so in order to save mankind from extinction, the gods sent forth rivers of wine that looked like blood to get Sekhmet intoxicated.
There was NO actual flood. LOL Let alone one that afflicted humans. On the contrary it was the opposite-- a drought said to be caused by the fiery breath of Sekhmet.
I would recommend you stick to the bible but you even fail at that.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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^^^ Why should anyone take you seriously about anything else when you can't even provide a genetic source showing a civilization OTHER than the kura-araxes bringing hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia? Isn't that what you are asserting? That the hg J in the Levant/Mesopotamia possibly came from civilizations OTHER than the kura-araxes -- civilizations that could actually be related to Abraham and Hebrews? If so then SHOW THE SOURCE. Source up or shutup.
This is why in my last comment, I said I wouldn't get into how you are wrong about the Egyptians not having a flood story. Because now you're trying to ramble on about that instead of proving what you said about hg J and the Levant/Mesopotamia.
In your deception you also ignore how you were 100% wrong about africans "not having a flood story".
When you get DEBUNKED you ignore it and try to move onto other BS talking points instead of acknowledging your incompetence.
You're a clown who likes to see/hear themselves talk because you think you're smarter than you are.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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Djehuti, pretty please can we see a genetic source that shows hg J arriving into the Levant/Mesopotamia via a civilization other than the Kura-Araxes?
Via a civilization that could actually be related to Abraham and Hebrews?
Pretty please with a cherry on top?
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti The myth of the Great Flood and ark is shared by a variety of cultures from the Indian Vaivasvata Manu to the Greek Deucalion. Most of the myths are from Southwest Asia-- Hebrew Noah, Akkadian Utnapishtim, Sumerian Ziusudra.
Flood stories and other stories about ancient catastrophes are always interesting. They may go back to traumatic events in the past. People who come in contact with each other also exchange stories, so different stories can mix together, or change and adapt to new cultural circumstances.
When concerning flood stories one must remember that early humans often found environments like coastal areas or flood plains to be attractive places to live in (we still do today). Such areas are often prone to floods, landslides and similar events. Such experiences are of course traumatic and will be remembered and talked about. These stories will also be brought to other peoples. Over time the stories gradually mutate. At some occasion they might also be written down.
Sometimes we can see different written versions as the Mesopotamian flood myths who also reappears in the story about Noah.
Many such events are rather local and happen within a shorter time frame, as for example inundations in the Euphrates - Tigris valleys, Nile inundations and similar. But there is also a background of larger scale inundations as a result of raising sea levels after the last ice age. Whole landscapes have disappeared, like parts of Sunda and Sahul, like Doggerland in Northern Europe or the Gulf Oasis in the Persian gulf. So reminiscences of such events can maybe have remained in people's imagination and later mixed up with stories from later events.
Certain other types of climate disasters can also be remembered, such as cold periods up in the lands of the Norse which are talked about in the form of predictions about the great Fimbul winter that will precede Ragnarök (the end of the world). It has been speculated that faint memories of the Great Ice Age have been mixed up with memories of later cold periods (like the one in the 6th century AD) to shape such beliefs.
Catastrophic events haunt humanity still today. And in modern climate debate there are also some ingredients of flood stories in the shape of predictions about future inundations caused by humanity itself because we change the climate through emissions of CO2 and similar. So one day our sins will result in some kind of deluge.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
^ Yes, but you see strikingly similar myths in India with Vaivasvata Manu a son of the sun god being a "King of Dravida" after being forewarned of the flood by the god Vishnu in the form of a fish, he built a vessel in which his family, the 7 rishis, and 9 seeds and 9 pairs of animals were boarded in. When the flood waters receded the ship rested on the holy Mount Naubandhana which in earlier versions was somewhere in the Vindhya range but later versions moved to the Himalayas. The Greek version states that Deucalion was a son of the titan Prometheus and that he reigned as a king amongst the Pelasgians. He was warned of Zeus's plan to flood the earth due to the "hubris of the Pelasgians" by his father so he built a chest like boat for him and his wife (later versions say pairs of animals and seeds). When the flood receded their boat rested on a sacred mountain (various versions with Mount Parnassus in central Greece being the earliest while others say Mount Athos in Chalkidiki or Mount Othrys in Thessaly). In both versions, this surviving patriarch was said to have been good natured and pious and after the flood they both made sacrifices as soon as they left their boats like Noah.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^^^ Why should anyone take you seriously about anything else when you can't even provide a genetic source showing a civilization OTHER than the kura-araxes bringing hg J into the Levant/Mesopotamia? Isn't that what you are asserting? That the hg J in the Levant/Mesopotamia possibly came from civilizations OTHER than the kura-araxes -- civilizations that could actually be related to Abraham and Hebrews? If so then SHOW THE SOURCE. Source up or shutup.
Both Lioness and I cited multiple sources showing that J PREDATES Kura-Araxes which is why it found in multiple cultures not just Kura-Araxes including Sumerian and Halafian cultures. But all you've done is ignore them because you are a sore loser and lunatic.
quote:This is why in my last comment, I said I wouldn't get into how you are wrong about the Egyptians not having a flood story. Because now you're trying to ramble on about that instead of proving what you said about hg J and the Levant/Mesopotamia.
In your deception you also ignore how you were 100% wrong about Africans "not having a flood story".
The Egyptians DON'T have a flood myth, you lying idiot! The only one attempting deception is YOU with that silly snippet about floods of wine. You don't even know the context. So here it:
Where in the story does it say anything about a deluge?! LMAO
If Africans had original flood myths that were non Abrahamic you would be able to cite one but instead you distort an Egyptian myth. LOL
quote:When you get DEBUNKED you ignore it and try to move onto other BS talking points instead of acknowledging your incompetence.
You're a clown who likes to see/hear themselves talk because you think you're smarter than you are.
LMAO Punk, quit PROJECTING yourself on to me! YOU are the one who keeps getting debunked and are an incompetent clown! I suggest you leave this forum and seek professional mental help.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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I just cited a source showing that Egyptians and multiple African tribes have flood stories and what do you know? The goal post moves... but I'll leave that alone.
Nobody said that hg J doesn't predate the Kura-araxes, straw queen.
All haplogroups predate all cultures you idiot. So stop trying to cop out.
You agreed that Abraham and the Hebrews were not descendants of the Kura-Araxes,
So...
Here is the million dollar question, once again...
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Djehuti, pretty please can we see a genetic source that shows hg J arriving into the Levant/Mesopotamia via a civilization other than the Kura-Araxes?
Via a civilization that could actually be related to Abraham and Hebrews?
Pretty please with a cherry on top?
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