quote: Maternal and paternal lineages in King Tutankhamun’s family Yehia Z. Gad, 2020
The proposed sibling relationship between Tutankhamun’s parents, KV55 (Akhenaten) and KV35YL, is further supported. The royal lineage is composed of the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b and the mitochondrial haplogroup K.
^^ the clade of R1b is unspecified it may or may not be R1b-V88
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Nevertheless R1b is found at significant frequencies in the Toubou people in Chad (but the extend to Libya) and Siwa people of the Oasis in NW Egypt, also E lineage
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Do you have a link for the Toubou y-DNA source? And isn't it known the area of Chad has significant R1b?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Lioness' source says R1b was associated with Afroasiatic speakers, are there other AfAs speaksers with high R1b/V88...?
With Afro-Asiatic speakers I believe they mean Chadic-speakers like the Hausa. The Toubou are Nilo-Saharan speakers.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Ahh ok that makes sense, the source says that V88 was associated with a mid Holocene spread of AfAsiatic speakers...
Could Chadians, Siwans, and the Toubou be descendants of these AfroAsiatic peoples?(Despite the modern Toubou being Nilo Sahran speakers)
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Lioness' source says R1b was associated with Afroasiatic speakers, are there other AfAs speaksers with high R1b/V88...?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ahh ok that makes sense, the source says that V88 was associated with a mid Holocene spread of AfAsiatic speakers...
Could Chadians, Siwans, and the Toubou be descendants of these AfroAsiatic peoples?(Despite the modern Toubou being Nilo Sahran speakers)
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Lioness' source says R1b was associated with Afroasiatic speakers, are there other AfAs speaksers with high R1b/V88...?
With Afro-Asiatic speakers I believe they mean Chadic-speakers like the Hausa. The Toubou are Nilo-Saharan speakers.
Some of the Toubou Ancestors were revealed by aDNA earlier this year. I'm certain that that population which accounts for about 30% of their ancestry and the T1a is linked to Egypt. V88 likely was already introduced and spread in north Africa by central Africans. My argument for that is that V88's virtually attached to the presence of E-M2 (particularly upstream clades) in North Africa. The counter argument is that E-M2 might've dispersed from North Africa instead. pick your poison.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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for table of Frequency percentages see Table S4. Y chromosomal haplogroup frequencies. H (about 4/5ths down PDF)
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Some of the Toubou Ancestors were revealed by aDNA earlier this year. I'm certain that that population which accounts for about 30% of their ancestry and the T1a is linked to Egypt. V88 likely was already introduced and spread in north Africa by central Africans. My argument for that is that V88's virtually to the presence of E-M2 (particularly upstream clades) in North Africa. The counter argument is that E-M2 might've dispersed from North Africa instead. pick your poison.
I'm going to put on my "hotep hat" and say I do remember a study(been trying to find it for ages) that hinted the Egyptian language was more similar to Chadic. I remember me and Swenet discussing this. Not sure how accurate it is. But if true that could potentially explain things.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Some of the Toubou Ancestors were revealed by aDNA earlier this year. I'm certain that that population which accounts for about 30% of their ancestry and the T1a is linked to Egypt. V88 likely was already introduced and spread in north Africa by central Africans. My argument for that is that V88's virtually to the presence of E-M2 (particularly upstream clades) in North Africa. The counter argument is that E-M2 might've dispersed from North Africa instead. pick your poison.
I'm going to put on my "hotep hat" and say I do remember a study(been trying to find it for ages) that hinted the Egyptian language was more similar to Chadic. I remember me and Swenet discussing this. Not sure how accurate it is. But if true that could potentially explain things.
Edit:
@Lioness
Thanks.
You should go even more Hotep and link Proto-AfroAsiatic with Niger Congo XD
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Above there is an interesting statement made in the text in the ending smaller paragraph and you can see that in the article, mid-way down the heading is " Eurasian Gene Flow Shaped the Genomes of Admixed Africans" and after that heading, ear the end of that paragraph:
We similarly found in the Toubou signals at HERC2 (MIM: 605837) rs1129038 a major contributor to blue eye color in Europeans[35]
[35] R.A. Sturm, D.L. Duffy, Z.Z. Zhao, F.P. Leite, M.S. Stark, N.K. Hayward, N.G. Martin, G.W. Montgomery A single SNP in an evolutionary conserved region within intron 86 of the HERC2 gene determines human blue-brown eye color Am. J. Hum. Genet., 82 (2008), pp. 424-431
They don't mention the Toubou in that 2008 article but in that article an SNP is identified that was found to be associated with blue eyes and this marker was identified in the Toubou in the above 2016 article on Chadian DNA. However I doubt despite the genetic marker it has probably not made many Toubou eyes blue since that would easily be noticed
I looked at a lot of photos of Toubou but not a huge amount. I did not get a feel that they have one particular look but maybe they do in specific parts of their territories in Chad and Libya. Comparatively some of the Fulani have a distinctive look that is more noticeable
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I'm going to put on my "hotep hat" and say I do remember a study(been trying to find it for ages) that hinted the Egyptian language was more similar to Chadic. I remember me and Swenet discussing this. Not sure how accurate it is. But if true that could potentially explain things.
Edit:
@Lioness
Thanks. [/QB]
Why would that be "hotep" ? the berber branch is actually the closest to the chadic one according to Ehret :
quote:In contrast, the divergence between the most distant Berber languages is in the order of 4,000–3,500 years ago – that is to say, the ancestral, Proto-Berber language was spoken most probably in the span 2000–1500 BC – and the subgroups within the Berber group are still more recent in origin. The closest relative of Berber within the family is the Chadic branch. The traditional sorts of historical linguistic indicators of relationship strongly support this conclusion.
Christopher Ehret, Berbers in the Sahara and North Africa : Linguistic Historical Proposals,in: Burials, Migration and Identity in the Ancient Sahara and Beyond, Cambridge University Press, 2019, pp. 464-465
They diverged quite early in time :
quote:The Chadic branch has a considerably greater internal time depth than Berber. The proto-Chadic language and society, according to our findings,date to a median range of around 7,000 years ago, or in other words to sometime in the period around 5000 BC. Our estimates place the divergence of the separate Berber and Chadic lines of linguistic descent out of their common ancestor, proto-Chado-Berber, another 2,000–3,000 years earlier, in the broad range of the eighth or ninth millennium BC.
Christopher Ehret, Berbers in the Sahara and North Africa : Linguistic Historical Proposals,in: Burials, Migration and Identity in the Ancient Sahara and Beyond, Cambridge University Press, 2019, p. 465
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Lioness' source says R1b was associated with Afroasiatic speakers, are there other AfAs speaksers with high R1b/V88...?
The Baggāra (Arabic: البَقَّارَة, romanized: al baqqāra "heifer herder"[7]) or Chadian Arabs are a nomadic confederation of people of mixed Arab and Arabized indigenous African ancestry,[8][9] inhabiting a portion of the Sahel mainly between Lake Chad and the Nile river near south Kordofan, numbering over six million.[10] They are known as Baggara and Abbala in Sudan, and as Shuwa Arabs in Cameroon, Nigeria and Western Chad.[6] The term Shuwa is said to be of Kanuri origin
Their common language is known to academics by various names, such as Chadian Arabic, taken from the regions where the language is spoken. For much of the 20th century, this language was known to academics as "Shuwa Arabic", but "Shuwa" is a geographically and socially parochial term that has fallen into disuse among linguists specializing in the language, who instead refer to it as "Chadian Arabic" depending on the origin of the native speakers being consulted for a given academic project.
Many Chadic languages have been in contact with languages from the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan families. A few languages also have direct contact with Nigerian and Chadian Arabic, members of the Semitic family
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I'm going to put on my "hotep hat" and say I do remember a study(been trying to find it for ages) that hinted the Egyptian language was more similar to Chadic. I remember me and Swenet discussing this. Not sure how accurate it is. But if true that could potentially explain things.
quote:Cuz.. "we wuz kangz and sheit"
Translation
quote:Im a coon who thinks I get cookie points for kissing rag head ass so anybody who makes any connection with other African civilisations is a hotep Kang
First of all:
1. Learn to read/comprehend the context behind discussions. And learn to grasp sarcasm and jokes. Especially from posters like me who have a consistent post history of being the opposite. Hence the "hotep hat" in quotations.
2. Don't insult the Admins or any other posters as its against the rules.
3. First and final warning. Trend carefully.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Within Africa, the highest frequencies of the R-V88 haplogroup (and its commonest sub-clade, R-V69) were observed in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad, and Niger). Immediately south of this region (southern Cameroon and southern Nigeria), frequencies drastically dropped to 0.0–4.8%. The central Sahel is characterized by a strong linguistic fragmentation with populations speaking languages belonging to three of the four linguistic families of Africa (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan). When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations, with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers, also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers.
In contrast to prior studies on nuclear (mostly autosomal) ins/del and microsatellite markers, the Chadic are distinguished from the Nilo-Saharan speaking populations at the Y chromosome variation level . Repeated assimilations of Nilo-Saharan females over generations may account for these conflicting signals. Among the Niger-Congo-speaking populations, the frequency of the haplogroup R-V88 ranged between 0.0 and 66.7%. Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis. Although the presence of the haplogroup R-V88 at non-negligible frequencies in some Niger-Congo-speaking populations from the central Sahel can be accounted for by Chadic admixture favored by geographic contiguity, the presence of this haplogroup both in northern Africa and the central Sahel is especially intriguing given that >1500 km across the Sahara separate the two regions. The expansion time for the haplogroup R-V88 in Africa, under two different population models, was found to be 9.2–5.6 ky .
Diverse hypotheses have been proposed to explain the process by which proto-Chadic speakers arrived to the Lake Chad region. Ehret has put forward a model for Afroasiatic languages with a primary division between the Omotic languages of Ethiopia and an Erythraean subgroup. This, in turn, has been subdivided into Cushitic and North Erythraean, the latter including Berber, Semitic, Ancient Egyptian, and Chadic. In his opinion, around 7000 kya proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers may have moved west through the Central Sahara and then farther south into the Lake Chad Basin.47 Blench,48 in turn, suggested that speakers of proto-Cushitic–Chadic language migrated east-to-west from the Middle Nile to the Lake Chad, and recent mtDNA data support this view.49 However, in contrast to the mtDNA, a strong connection between Chadic and other Afroasiatic populations from Northern Africa is revealed by the Y chromosome data. This finding would indicate the trans-Saharan47 a more likely scenario than the inter-Saharan hypothesis, at least as far as the male component of gene pool is concerned. In this view, it is tempting to speculate that the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 represents a preserved genetic record of gene flow along the same axis as the proposed spread of proto-Chadic languages. Indeed, geomorphological evidence4 from the paleolakes that existed in the Sahara during the mid-Holocene indicates that these lakes could have covered an area as large as about 10% of the Sahara, providing an important corridor for human migrations across the region.
In summary, our data indicate a significant male contribution from northern Africa (and ultimately Asia) to the gene pool of the central Sahel. The trans-Saharan population movements resulting in this genetic pattern would seem to mirror the spread of the proto-Chadic languages, and most likely took place during the early mid Holocene, a period when giant paleolakes may have provided a corridor for human migrations across what is now the Sahara desert.
Cruciani et al, Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages 2010
@Lioness
Whats to say that the Toubou didn't integrate (war with/enslave) Hausa-Sara like people and thats where their R-V88 lineage comes from. Since we already know all of the Siwans are slave descendants (camelcentric narrative) so how did they get their?
I also believe the Fulani's in Sudan and Ethiopia are primarily R-V88 too.
@Askia
Dont be mad at me for giving a simple observation Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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It wasn't you giving a "simple observation" but you missing the satire. Anyways first warning and stay on-topic.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Forgive me if this appears off topic, but I've always wondered about the ancestry of a TChadien person, or Saharans in general. Like, I have heard people attribute some of their looks to be attributed to the North African or Near Eastern ancestry they may have, but I don't really see it. It's like they have their own unique phenotype in that area in the Sahara.
Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023
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posted
Yea lets please not turn this into one of the many thousand picture threads on here.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Yea lets please not turn this into one of the many thousand picture threads on here.
Okay sorry, my apologies. I'm just here to learn because I am interested in the topic.
Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023
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Whats to say that the Toubou didn't integrate (war with/enslave) Hausa-Sara like people and thats where their R-V88 lineage comes from. Since we already know all of the Siwans are slave descendants (camelcentric narrative) so how did they get their?
I also believe the Fulani's in Sudan and Ethiopia are primarily R-V88 too.
the Toubou might have gotten the V88 from the Hausa
I don't know if it's correct to say "all of the Siwans are slave descendants"
Yes, that is a trade route and slave were part of the trade but if you are suggesting they are primarily descendants of slaves I don't know if that could be proven. Also their mtDNA is highly varied, see OP chart on Siwans (Coudray 2008) sorting that out is complicated, a lot of different people passed through that oasis, seemingly
quote: For the Siwa oasis, there is very little information on which exact prehistoric period was the starting point of Berber culture. However we know that throughout history, the oasis was crossed by successive human groups, like pilgrims traveling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian slave merchants. Siwa was also repopulated by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors. Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and has faced, between the ninth and twelfth centuries, a drastic demographic reduction of its population (Fakhry 1973).
~The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations C. Coudray, 2008
.
.
Tour Egypt says:
quote: The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendants remain today...
The History of the Siwa Oasis by Jimmy Dunn
Siwa, like the other Western Oasis, has had a number of different names over the millenniums. It was called Santariya by the ancient Arabs, as well as the Oasis of Jupiter-Amun, Marmaricus Hammon, the Field of Palm Trees and Santar by the ancient Egyptians..
We believe it was occupied as early as Paleolithic and Neolithic times, and some believe it was the capital of an ancient kingdom that may have included Qara, Arashieh and Bahrein. During Egypt's Old Kingdom, it was a part of Tehenu, the Olive Land that may have extended as for east as Mareotis.
In many respects, the Siwa Oasis has little in common with the other Western Oasis. The Siwan people are mostly Berbers, the true Western Desert indigenous people, who once roamed the North African coast between Tunisia and Morocco. They inhabited the area as early as 10,000 BC, first moving towards the coast, but later inland as other conquering invaders arrived. Hence, Siwa is more North African sometimes then Egyptian and their language, traditions, rites, dress, decorations and tools differ from those of the other Western Oasis.
The Senusiyya, Senussi or Sanusi (Arabic: السنوسية, romanized: al-Sanūssiyya) are a Muslim political-religious Sufi order and clan in colonial Libya and the Sudan region founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Sanussi (Arabic: السنوسي الكبير as-Sanūssiyy al-Kabīr), the Algerian Muhammad ibn Ali al-Sanusi. Sanusi was concerned with what he saw as both the decline of Islamic thought and spirituality and the weakening of Muslim political integrity.
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However there may be no genetic information on the Sanusi (?)
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wikipedia, Hausa people:
Daura, in northern Nigeria, is the oldest city of Hausaland. The Hausa of Gobir, also in northern Nigeria, speak the oldest surviving classical vernacular of the language
According to a Y-DNA study by Hassan et al. (2008), about 47% of Hausa in Sudan carry the West Eurasian haplogroup R1b . The remainder belong to various African paternal lineages: 15.6% B, 12.5% A and 12.5% E1b1a. A small minority of around 4% are E1b1b clade bearers, a haplogroup which is most common in North Africa and the Horn of Africa.[85]
A more recent study on Hausa of Arewa (northern Nigeria) revealed different results: 47% E1b1a (typical of Niger-Congo populations) , 5% E1b1b, 21% other Haplogroup E (E-M33 , E-M75...), 18% R1b, 9% B and 5% E1b1b.
The Hausa Kingdoms were independent political entities in what is now Northern Nigeria. The Hausa city states emerged as southern terminals of the Trans-Saharan caravan trade. Like other cities such as Gao and Timbuktu in the Mali Empire, these city states became centres of long-distance trade. Hausa merchants in each of these cities collected trade items from domestic areas such as leather, dyed cloth, horse gear, metal locks and kola nuts from the rain forest region to the south through trade or slave raiding[citation needed], processed (and taxed) them and then sent them north to cities along the Mediterranean.[61] By the 12th century AD, the Hausa were becoming one of Africa's major trading powers, competing with Kanem-Bornu and the Mali Empire.[62] The primary exports were leather, gold, cloth, salt, kola nuts, slaves, animal hides, and henna. Certainly trade influenced religion. By the 14th century, Islam was becoming widespread in Hausaland as Wangara scholars, scholars and traders from Mali and scholars and traders from the Maghreb brought the religion with them.[63]
the Toubou might have gotten the V88 from the Hausa
I don't know if it's correct to say "all of the Siwans are slave descendants"
Yes, that is a trade route and slave were part of the trade but if you are suggesting they are primarily descendants of slaves I don't know if that could be proven. Also their mtDNA is highly varied, see OP chart on Siwans (Coudray 2008) sorting that out is complicated, a lot of different people passed through that oasis, seemingly
I don't believe that the Siwans are primarily descendants of slaves, just that I've seen Camelcentric's say they're since they virtually have no E-M81.
quote:However, by 1203 we are told that the population of the Siwa Oasis had declined to as low as 40 men from seven families due to constant attacks and particularly after a rather viscous Bedouin assault. In order to found a more secure settlement, they moved from the ancient town of Aghurmi and established the present city called Shali, which simply means town. This new fortified town was built with only three gates. An Islamic historian, Maqrizi, explains that soon after there were 600 people living in the Oasis. At this point the Siwa may have been an independent republic. He goes on to say that it was populated by strange and fearsome animals and that the people were plagued by unusual diseases. However, he also says of the Siwa that its fertility was legendary, citing an "orange-tree as large as an Egyptian sycamore, producing fourteen thousand oranges every year". The Siwa exported crops to Egypt and Cyrene.
One of the main historical references we have on the Siwa Oasis is called the "Siwan Manuscript" which was written during the middle ages and serves as a local history book. It tells us of a benevolent man who arrived in the Oasis and planted an orchard. Afterward, he went to Mecca and brought back thirsty Arabs and Berbers to live in the Oasis, where he established himself, along with his followers in the western part of Shali.
Unfortunately, there seems to have almost immediately been problems between the original inhabitants, who were later known as the Easterners, and the new families western families who to this day are proud to be described as "The Thirty". The conflicts between the two sides became legendary, and sometimes rose into short, but intense violence. An example comes to us from C. Dalrymple Belgrave, who describes an incident caused by an Easterner who wished to enlarge his house. This addition would have encroached upon the already narrow street, so "The Thirty" objected. He goes on to tell us of a typical outburst:
"A Sheikh sounded a drum as a declaration of hostilities. The combatants then assembled to fight the battle with their advisories. The women stood behind their husbands to excite their courage; each of whom had a sack of stones in her hand, to cast at the enemy, and even at those of their own party who should be tempted to fly before the close of the combat. At the beat of the drum, small platoons advanced successively from both sides, rushing furiously toward each other. they never placed their guns to the shoulder, but fired carelessly with their arms extended, and then retired. No person was allowed to fire his gun more than once; and when all had thus performed their part, whatever might be the number of dead or wounded, the Sheikh beat his drum, and the combat ceased."
Obviously, if the Siwans could not get along with each other, they must surely have had trouble accepting outsiders. The first European we know of to visit the Siwa Oasis was W. G. Browne, who accompanied a date caravan and disguised himself as an Arab. He hoped to find the famous site of the Oracle of Amun. However, he was found out and had to remain indoors to avoid problems. On the fourth day of his visit he was finally allowed to venture out, only to be disappointed when he actually found the temple, thinking it too small to to be of much importance.
the Toubou might have gotten the V88 from the Hausa
I don't know if it's correct to say "all of the Siwans are slave descendants"
Yes, that is a trade route and slave were part of the trade but if you are suggesting they are primarily descendants of slaves I don't know if that could be proven. Also their mtDNA is highly varied, see OP chart on Siwans (Coudray 2008) sorting that out is complicated, a lot of different people passed through that oasis, seemingly
I don't believe that the Siwans are primarily descendants of slaves, just that I've seen Camelcentric's say they're since they virtually have no E-M81.
I would not use the word "Camelcentric" it sounds stupid Nobody mentioned slaves in this thread until you brought it up
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I would not use the word "Camelcentric" it sounds stupid
Please keep that same energy for those types who use afrocentric then....
People proudly call themselves Afrocentric, for instance Molefi Asante. He founded the PhD program in African-American Studies at Temple and is president of the Molefi Kete Asante Institute for Afrocentric Studies.
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: I brought it up pertaing to the Siwans because there is a narrative that they're slave descendants
And the Toubou's are nomadic raiders similar to Tuareg's, Fulani's, Zaghawa etc
It's hard to tell how much slave ancestry Siwas may or may not have but to suggest that's a false narrative, it does not make sense to then add>> "And the Toubou's are nomadic raiders similar to Tuareg's, Fulani's, Zaghawa" because that suggests it's not a false narrative
quote:
The expansion time for the haplogroup R-V88 in Africa, under two different population models (see Materials and methods), was found to be 9.2–5.6 ky (95% CI=7.6–10.8 ky and 4.7–6.6 ky, respectively).
~ January 2010 Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages Fulvio Cruciani,
haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan...
Here, we seek insights into such history and attempt to understand Sudanese populations’ structure from the male side of lineages, through the study of Y-chromosome variation of individuals representing some of the major ethnic groups in the country. These include groups known to have had an established history in what is today the Sudan, like Nuba and Nilotics, as well as groups that are known to have migrated relatively recently to Sudan (e.g., Hausa,Copts, and Meseria)
E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa. E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. In contrast, haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and J-M172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. J-12f2 and J-M172 represents 94% and6%, respectively, of haplogroup J with high frequencies among Nubians, Copts, and Arabs. Haplogroup K-M9 is restricted to Hausa and Gaalien with low frequencies and is absent in Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo. Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent halogroup in Fulani, and haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan. Haplogroups A-M51, A-M23, D-M174, H-M52, L-M11, O-M175, and P-M74 were completely absent from the populations analyzed.
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Hassan et al. November 2008 American Journal of Physical Anthropology 137(3):316-23 DOI:10.1002/ajpa.20876 2008
^^ when the mention clades of haplogroup R, this article is from 2008 before Cruciani discovered the particular R clade now called "R1b-V88" and published in 2010 before 2005, R1b was synonymous with R-P25, which was later reclassified as R1b1; in 2016,
In 2010 Cruciani says in his R-V88 article:
quote: Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes.
It's hard to tell how much slave ancestry Siwas may or may not have but to suggest that's a false narrative, it does not make sense to then add>> "And the Toubou's are nomadic raiders similar to Tuareg's, Fulani's, Zaghawa" because that suggests it's not a false narrative
I wasn't connecting the two I probably should have worded it better. You said
quote:Nobody mentioned slaves in this thread until you brought it up
So I explained why I brought it up,
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: I brought it up pertaining to the Siwans because there is a narrative that they're slave descendants
And the Toubou's are nomadic raiders similar to Tuareg's, Fulani's, Zaghawa etc
The Toubou's may or may not have derived R-V88 from raiding Chadic groups, similar to E-M2 Tuaregs in Niger and Libya, although maybe the Toubou's did traffic the modern Siwans.....
haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan...
Here, we seek insights into such history and attempt to understand Sudanese populations’ structure from the male side of lineages, through the study of Y-chromosome variation of individuals representing some of the major ethnic groups in the country. These include groups known to have had an established history in what is today the Sudan, like Nuba and Nilotics, as well as groups that are known to have migrated relatively recently to Sudan (e.g., Hausa,Copts, and Meseria)
E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa. E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. In contrast, haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and J-M172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. J-12f2 and J-M172 represents 94% and6%, respectively, of haplogroup J with high frequencies among Nubians, Copts, and Arabs. Haplogroup K-M9 is restricted to Hausa and Gaalien with low frequencies and is absent in Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo. Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent halogroup in Fulani, and haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan. Haplogroups A-M51, A-M23, D-M174, H-M52, L-M11, O-M175, and P-M74 were completely absent from the populations analyzed
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Hassan et al. November 2008 American Journal of Physical Anthropology 137(3):316-23 DOI:10.1002/ajpa.20876 2008.
quote:Hassan et al. show the human biogeography of Sudan tohave been impacted by Arabic speakers and other non Africans who arrived primarily in the Islamic period from Asia via Egypt and interacted in various ways with local peoples. Their analysis documents the introgression of M89 lineages into certain populations of northeast Africa, where the indigenous haplogroups are A, B, and E, thus illustrating biological ‘‘levels of history’’ to borrow a concept from Braudel (1982) which may be useful in thinking about diachronic changes that can occur in populations/regions....
The frequencies in Hassan et al.’s sample are consistent with a secondary migration from the Cameroon where the Fulani are known to have bioculturally assimilated various groups, and where there is a notable frequency of R1*M173 in published samples of various ethnolinguistic groups, including some Fulbe. Genetic drift could also have had a role. Space does not permit further discussion of R1*M173, which has a higher frequency in central Africa than in the Near East, and which may have come to Africa in a back migration during the Late Stone Age, before the emergence of current or ancient African ethnic/linguistic groups/ peoples. R1*M173 became part of an African biocultural evolutionary history, perhaps shaped in part in a later Saharan metapopulation, and apparently later dispersed(along with other lineages) into the ancestral populations of various regions.
S.O Keita, Letter to the Editor: Commentary on the Fulani—History,Genetics, and Linguistics, an Adjunct to Hassan et al.,2008
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quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: The Toubou's may or may not have derived R-V88 from raiding Chadic groups, similar to E-M2 Tuaregs in Niger and Libya, although maybe the Toubou's did traffic the modern Siwans.....
Where do you think its from?
Maybe Sardinia, scroll down slightly, then click on "Discussion" on the right
quote: The R1b-M269 haplogroup, dominant in present-day continental Iberia after having arrived there with the Bronze Age Indo-European expansion57 and at 15% frequency in modern Sardinians56, is absent throughout our transect from the Middle Neolithic to Nuragic in Sardinia, but later appears in three post-Nuragic ancient individuals. Similarly, the haplogroup E-M215, a major present-day Sardinian haplogroup (10%) that is prevalent in present-day Northern Africa, was not identified among any of the pre-Iron Age ancient individuals we sampled. However, we also detected signals of partial continuity from pre-Iron Age Sardinia. The Y haplogroups G2-L91 and R1b-V88, which were previously identified to have major Sardinia-specific sub-clades based on present-day Sardinian variation56, were all identified in at least one ancient Sardinian male (Fig. 6).
Interestingly, markers of the R1b-V88 subclade R1b-V2197, which is at presentday found in Sardinians and most African R1b-V88 carriers, are derived only in the Els Trocs individual and two ancient Sardinian individuals (MA89, 3,370-3,110 BCE, MA110 1,220-1,050 BCE) (Fig. 9). MA110 additionally carries derived markers of the R1b-V2197 subclade R1b-V35, which is at present-day almost exclusively found in Sardinians58 . This configuration suggests that the V88 branch first appeared in eastern Europe, mixed into Early European farmer individuals (after putatively sex-biased admixture60), and then spread with EEF to the western Mediterranean. Individuals carrying an apparently basal V88 haplotype in Mesolithic Balkans and across Neolithic Europe provide evidence against a previously suggested central-west African origin of V8861. A west Eurasian R1b-V88 origin is further supported by a recent phylogenetic analysis that puts modern Sardinian carrier haplotypes basal to the African R1b-V88 haplotypes58. The putative coalescence times between the Sardinian and African branches inferred there fall into the Neolithic Subpluvial (“green Sahara”, about 7,000 to 3,000 years BCE). Previous observations of autosomal traces of Holocene admixture with Eurasians for several Chadic populations62 provide further support for a speculative hypothesis that at least some amounts of EEF ancestry crossed the Sahara southwards. Genetic analysis of Neolithic human remains in the Sahara from the Neolithic Subpluvial would provide key insights into the timing and specific route of R1b-V88 into Africa - and whether this haplogroup was associated with a maritime wave of Cardial Neolithic along Western Mediterranean coasts63 and subsequent movement across the Sahara58,64 . Overall, our analysis provides evidence that R1b-V88 traces back to eastern European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and later spread with the Neolithic expansion into Iberia and Sardinia. These results emphasize that the geographic history of a Y-chromosome haplotype can be complex, and modern day spatial distributions need not reflect the initial spread.
posted
^I know it likely comes from the bell beaker culture, I was talking about the Toubou’s specifically. Where and when did they get R-V88 from? Were they originally afro-asiatic speakers who adopted nilo-saharan languages? Did they assimilate Chadic people?
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quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: ^I know it likely comes from the bell beaker culture, I was talking about the Toubou’s specifically. Where and when did they get R-V88 from? Were they originally afro-asiatic speakers who adopted nilo-saharan languages? Did they assimilate Chadic people?
that is unknown.
In 2010 Cruciani said
The expansion time for the haplogroup R-V88 in Africa, under two different population models was 9.2– 5.6 thousand years ago
In wikipedia on R1b
in the R1b-V88 section they talk about a few more recent researchers theories such as Eugenia D’Atanasio:
wiki:
D'Atanasio et al. (2018) propose that R1b-V88 originated in Europe about 12,000 years ago and crossed to North Africa by about 8000 years ago; it may formerly have been common in southern Europe, where it has since been replaced by waves of other haplogroups, leaving remnant subclades almost exclusively in Sardinia. It first radiated within Africa likely between 7 and 8,000 years ago – at the same time as trans-Saharan expansions within the unrelated haplogroups E-M2 and A-M13 – possibly due to population growth allowed by humid conditions and the adoption of livestock herding in the Sahara. R1b-V1589, the main subclade within R1b-V88, underwent a further expansion around 5500 years ago, likely in the Lake Chad Basin region, from which some lines recrossed the Sahara to North Africa.
________________
D'Atanasio is talking similarly about between 7 and 8,000 years ago
This is too long ago to have information distinguishing particular tribal groups in the region as we know them today It should be looked at as the presence of R-V88 in the Chad basin region generally
Last paragraph, Cruciani 2010:
quote:In summary, our data indicate a significant male contribution from northern Africa (and ultimately Asia) to the gene pool of the central Sahel. The trans-Saharan population movements resulting in this genetic pattern would seem to mirror the spread of the proto-Chadic languages, and most likely took place during the early mid Holocene, a period when giant paleolakes may have provided a corridor for human migrations across what is now the Sahara desert.
Norland and President of the Tebu Congress discuss the importance of including all Libyan people in the political process. Published on: 2023-03-07
Tripoli 7 March 2023 (Lana)The U.S. Special Envoy for Libya Ambassador, Richard Norland, met with the President of the Tebu Congress, Issa Abdul Majid, and discussed the importance of including all Libyan people in the political process.
The U.S Embassy said in a tweet that Norland discussed with Abdul Majid the importance of including all Libyan people in the UN-facilitated political process to establish a pathway to elections and stability.
It's noteworthy that the U.S Embassy in Libya expressed, in a statement a few days ago, its country's support for the initiative of the UN Envoy to Libya, Abdoulaye Bathily, to hold the elections in 2023.
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Gadaffi tried to kick all of the Toubous out of Libya because they aren't "real Libyans"
quote:
Peter Cole, Brian McQuinn ,The Libyan Revolution and Its Aftermath,2015
You will never see those pannies who worship Gadaffi bring that up though...
Lets also keep in mind the fact that the Toubou's, like many other groups of africans, are non black Hamites. So it makes me wonder why they were so "marginalized"? Did the Libyans not have access to spit kits?
Think about the post I made above. It didn't come with bellbeaker. Bellbeaker pervades the continent via Iberia. V88 has a direct maritime connection with Northern Africans from the Tyrrhrenean sea. It's either linked to Cardial ware or some late Pleistocene huntergather from that area. Judging by the Age, the Northern Africans who carried it first in Africa could have probably spoken Nilo-Saharan, a proto-Chadic or an extinct language related to it or A.Egyptian at best fmpov. It predates Berber and had no real ties to Semitic or Cushitic. V88 was either later mitigated by inner Africans who likely didn't bring Chadic Languages to the regions in North Africa during Africa's early Iron age which is why it's tied to E-M2. Or E-M2 spread from North Africa. In the case of the former, V88 probably came directly to Chad which was a hub for early clades of E-M2 and expanded from there. As for the later, V88 spread in Northern Africa and was replaced by later expanding lineages After it and E-M2 spread in the Sahel and Equatoral Africa.
As far as the Toubous Ethnogenesis is concerned I think it's pretty obvious now that they have Bronze age North East African or Ancient Egyptian ancestry. The intersection of V68 and T1a attributed to this possibility. Their V88 likely predates the ancestry I'm referring to as it was already in the region when they got this ancestry.
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@Shebitku Search the forum. Query V88. Idk why The Lioness' memory is so bad.
Exhibit A A Part 2 Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Read this post & thread carefully. Exhibit E Exhibit F
Think about the post I made above. It didn't come with bellbeaker. Bellbeaker pervades the continent via Iberia. V88 has a direct maritime connection with Northern Africans from the Tyrrhrenean sea. It's either linked to Cardial ware or some late Pleistocene huntergather from that area. Judging by the Age, the Northern Africans who carried it first in Africa could have probably spoken Nilo-Saharan, a proto-Chadic or an extinct language related to it or A.Egyptian at best fmpov. It predates Berber and had no real ties to Semitic or Cushitic. V88 was either later mitigated by inner Africans who likely didn't bring Chadic Languages to the regions in North Africa during Africa's early Iron age which is why it's tied to E-M2. Or E-M2 spread from North Africa. In the case of the former, V88 probably came directly to Chad which was a hub for early clades of E-M2 and expanded from there. As for the later, V88 spread in Northern Africa and was replaced by later expanding lineages After it and E-M2 spread in the Sahel and Equatoral Africa.
As far as the Toubous Ethnogenesis is concerned I think it's pretty obvious now that they have Bronze age North East African or Ancient Egyptian ancestry. The intersection of V68 and T1a attributed to this possibility. Their V88 likely predates the ancestry I'm referring to as it was already in the region when they got this ancestry.
Thankyou for your detailed response. I don't have enough time right now to read through all of those threads right now, but I definitely will soon.
quote:Originally posted by Lioness
stop the nonsense, I didn't mention Bell Beaker
I mentioned bell beaker as I thought V-88 had been found there swell as at Nuragic, as you mentioned. Clearly he’s referring to you not correcting me if you knew there was no V-88 at bell beaker!
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As far as the Toubous Ethnogenesis is concerned I think it's pretty obvious now that they have Bronze age North East African or Ancient Egyptian ancestry. The intersection of V68 and T1a attributed to this possibility. Their V88 likely predates the ancestry I'm referring to as it was already in the region when they got this ancestry.
This is pretty interesting. And I hope I am on the money, but I always had a gut feeling that modern Nilo-Saharans in the Sahara carry some Northeast Africa ancestry and could be modeled after Egyptians. I remember our conversation about modern Nubians in Egypt(also Nilo-Saharan speakers) and the way they look. Again, hopefully I am in the money. This is why getting more ancient DNA is vital. And yea, this will make a certain group go crazy. I'm also going to read through those threads. I'm also really curious about T1a...
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Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations Marc Haber et al., 2016
The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya, suggesting conversion without population mixing at this time. They did, however, receive additional Eurasian ancestry in the past 200 years from a source represented by North African populations such as Tunisians, Mozabite, Algerians, and Sahrawi (Figure 3C). This recent interaction could have been promoted by the nomadic lifestyle of the present-day Toubou and a shared Muslim religion with North Africans. Unsurprisingly, we also detected a likely mixing of Chad populations in the sample from the capital, which could be even more recent.
(1) Egyptians had a population bottleneck that was much more pronounced than that of other Africans but not as sharp as that of Eurasian populations; and (2) the Toubou and Ethiopians shared a very similar pattern during the bottleneck: they were close to other Africans but had a somewhat sharper decrease in population size (Figure 2). We would not expect such different fluctuations in population sizes at 60,000 ya in populations who shared a common origin during this period. For example, all Eurasians trace their origin to a population who exited Africa ∼60,000 ya, and this is reflected in indistinguishable Ne patterns during this period,20, 33 which we also observed in the CEU, Greeks, and Lebanese (Figure 2), as expected. A shared pattern of Ne in ancient times was also observed in the Sara, Laal speakers, and other Africans, such as the Yoruba. We suggest that the deviation from the expected Ne pattern in the Toubou is related to extensive admixture history with Eurasians, like the Eurasian admixture seen in Ethiopians, and we explore this possibility directly with admixture tests below.
we suggest that the Eurasian mixture event in the Sara and Laal speakers is independent of the mixture event in East Africans and the Toubou for two reasons: (1) admixture LD showed that the events in southern Chad preceded the events in East Africa by 2,000–4,500 years, and (2) we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined (Table S4; Figure S1). From whole Y chromosome sequences (Figure S2), we estimate that the Chadian R1b-V88 chromosomes sampled emerged 5,700–7,300 ya (Figure 3B), a time comparable to the Laal speaker admixture dates (4,750–7,200 ya) estimated from genome-wide LD-decay patterns.
the Toubou have ∼30% Eurasian ancestry from a population similar to the Greeks, who have 13% derived alleles at rs4988235, suggesting an expectation of ∼3.9% of the derived allele simply from admixture. We similarly found in the Toubou signals at HERC2 (MIM: 605837) rs1129038 a major contributor to blue eye color in Europeans35 (Toubou derived allele frequency [DAF] = 0.014; Greek DAF = 0.33; Yoruba, Sara, and Laal DAF = 0), as well as a signal at SLC24A5 (MIM: 609802) rs1834640, a major contributor to pigmentation36 (Toubou DAF = 0.19; Greek DAF = 0.99; Yoruba, Sara, and Laal DAF = 0–0.04).
In the populations we examined, we found R1b in the Toubou and Sara, who speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and also in the Laal people, who speak an unclassified language. This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture.
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The Toubou are Africans and R1b-V88 even if it originated in EUrope, doesn't make them any less African, no more than E1b in Europe makes them less European. There is no actual hard proof yet on how or when R1b-V88 got into Chad.
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^^^No one is saying the Toubou are less African for having R1b, if anything it proves the opposite, that Africans can carry high amounts of "Eurasian" DNA and spread it to other African populations and still look like the Toubou. Also, as El Mestro alludes to the Toubou have connections to ancient Egypt/N/A populations..etc.
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posted
Read aal of this below it's interesting historical background hypothesis of R1b into Chad, as per Baggara Arabs also known as Shuwa
Britannica:
Baggara, (Arabic: “Cattlemen”), nomadic people of Arab and African ancestry who live in a part of Africa that will support cattle but not camels—south of latitude 13° and north of latitude 10° from Lake Chad eastward to the Nile River. Probably they are the descendants of Arabs who migrated west out of Egypt in the European Middle Ages, turned south from Tunisia to Chad, and finally moved back eastward in the 18th or 19th century to settle below the now Islamized sultanates of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.
Am J Phys Anthropol. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2019 Dec 1. Published in final edited form as: Am J Phys Anthropol. 2018 Dec; 167(4): 804–812. Published online 2018 Sep 27. doi:
Genetic History of Chad Daniel Shriner and Charles N. Rotimi
Taken together, our results provide a detailed genetic history of Chad. We found that Berber ancestry spread into Northern Chad but did not reach Southern Chad. We also found that the spread of R1b can be attributed to Baggara Arabs, not ancient Eurasians or Near Eastern farmers. Furthermore, the spread of Chadic languages likely predated the arrival of R1b by over 3,000 years. Finally, the genetic data support the tantalizing prospect that the Laal language can give insight into an otherwise lost Central African linguistic phylum.
These Arabs are also known as Baggara, which is derived from Arabic for cattle-herder, because as they migrated from Sudan the environment became unsuitable for camels and they learned cattle-herding from Fulani (Braukämper, 1994).
Presently, the distributions of R1b1a2-V88 and speakers of Chadic languages show partial overlap (Bučková et al., 2013; Cruciani et al., 2010a), but whether there is a causal, historical association is unknown. Based on the distribution of the mitochondrial DNA haplogroup L3f3, it has been suggested that Chadic-speaking pastoralists migrated from Northeastern or Eastern Africa, with an upper bound of the early Holocene (Černý et al., 2009).
We called the Y DNA and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups from whole genome sequences of 11 Chadians (Table 5). Among the patrilines, the Laal possessed two B1 and one R1, the Tubu (Toubou)possessed two E1b1b1b2 and two R1, and the Sara possessed two E1b1a7a. All 11 matrilines were of the L macro-haplogroup, with five L0a, one L1b, five L3 haplogroups. Although underpowered, these data suggest a relative excess of non-African patrilines, i.e., sex-biased gene flow. We also called Y DNA haplogroups from the Sahelian genotype data (Table 2). The frequency of R1 was 12.5% in the Sudanese Arabs, 33.3% in the Daza, and 50% in the Kanembu. The frequency of T, another patriline indicative of Eurasian immigration, was 44.4% in the Daza
quote: Table 5. (extract) Uniparental haplogroups from whole genome sequence data from Chad.
We investigated the genetic history of Chad, in the context of the Sahel as well as in the global context. We did not find evidence of immigration of Near Eastern farmers or ancient Eurasians of any sort. We found that the Y DNA haplogroup R1b correlated with the presence of Arabian and Western Asian ancestries in the Sudanese gene pool. Using autosomal data, we found that Western Asian and Arabian ancestries mixed in the 13th century prior to entering the Sudanese gene pool. We found that Arabian ancestry migrated from east to west, having entered the Sudanese gene pool 20 generations ago, the Chadian gene pool 15 generations ago, and the Cameroonian and Nigerian gene pools 10 generations ago. Linguistic data support this path: Nigerian Arabic and Chadian Arabic are closer to Sudanese Arabic than to Arabic in Northern Africa (Owens, 1994). We also found that R1b was present in many populations other than Chadic speakers.
Historical records indicate that Arabs entered Sudan through Egypt by the 12th century (Wilson, 1888). Assuming a generation interval of 28 years, our results indicated that Arabian ancestry entered the Sudanese gene pool between the mid-1300s and mid-1500s, giving rise to both Sudanese Arabs as well as Arabized Sudanese (such as Nubians). This period follows the decline of the Nubian Kingdom of Makuria and the end of the Baqt, a peace treaty between Muslim Egyptians and Christian Nubians. We observed that this gene flow event involved a combination of Arabian and Western Asian ancestries. Since Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula most commonly carry Y DNA haplogroup J1-M267 (Abu-Amero et al., 2009; Cadenas, Zhivotovsky, Cavalli-Sforza, Underhill, & Herrera, 2008; Chiaroni et al., 2010; Mohammad, Xue, Evison, & Tyler-Smith, 2009), and since R originated in Central Asia, we hypothesize that R entered the Arabian gene pool via Western Asian ancestry. Although most studies lack the resolution to state whether R1b was specifically R1b1a2-V88, we found no evidence supporting the hypothesis of multiple entries of R1b at different historical times. Furthermore, these Arabs spoke Arabic, not Chadic, implying no causal association between R1b and Chadic. These Arabs are also known as Baggara, which is derived from Arabic for cattle-herder, because as they migrated from Sudan the environment became unsuitable for camels and they learned cattle-herding from Fulani (Braukämper, 1994).
We estimated that Arabian and Western Asian ancestries mixed in the mid-13th century. This time is well after the Muslim conquest of Egypt in the 7th century and shortly before Arabian ancestry entered the Sudanese gene pool, suggesting that this mixture event occurred in Egypt. We hypothesize that this event involved the Mamluks, who included military slaves from the Caucasus region (Hathaway, 1997; McGregor, 2006; Philipp & Haarmann, 1998). Thus, our results suggest that the entry of R1b into Africa occurred in the last millennium, not in the early to mid-Holocene (Cruciani et al., 2010a), during the Neolithic revolution (Haber et al., 2016), or with the first pastoralists (Kulichová et al., 2017).
Previously, it has been suggested that Nubians experienced admixture with incoming Eurasians prior to the early Islamic conquests in the 7th century (Hollfelder et al., 2017). Our results do not support such an old event; it is possible that this finding is a false positive resulting from small sample sizes. It has also been suggested that recent admixture of Eastern African and Arabian ancestries in Sudanese Arabs indicates that these peoples were indigenously Northeast African, but kept the language and culture of the incoming Arabs (Hollfelder et al., 2017). A simpler explanation is that the incoming Arabs received Eastern African ancestry while keeping their original language and culture.
The genetic history of the Daza, the Kanembu, and the Tubu in Northern Chad started with a mixture event between Eastern Africans and West-Central Africans approximately 950 years ago. This finding may be explained by mixture between Nilo-Saharan-speaking Tubu and West-Central Kanembu. This event may have had the same participants as the event detected in Southern Chad approximately 750 years ago, consistent with a southward migration of the Kanembu. Then, Arabian ancestry and North African ancestry entered the gene pool approximately 400 years ago. The entry of Arabian ancestry at this time is consistent with westward migration of R1b-carrying Arabs from Sudan. We hypothesize that Y DNA haplogroup T entered Northern Chad via a southward migration of Berbers that occurred around the same time as the westward migration of Arabs.
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Abstract A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations. --Carlos Flores et al 2005
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So, at least in africa we have one of those cases where a mt haplogroup (U5b) is clearly linked with a paternal Haplogroup (V88). With that Assumption we can guess that V88 have been in Egypt for atleast 4000 years. Which gives us a margin of about 4.5 thousand years for earlier dispersal. Couple that with the fact that deeply diverged V88 lineages are in Siwa, I can estimate that Egypt was one of the earlier terminals for V88
If V88 has been in Egypt for atleast 4000 years, I presume it's reasonable to say that the Siwans are infact a remnant of an ancient Egyptian population, not slave descendants, as some would have you believe.
quote:Originally posted by DougM:
The Toubou are Africans and R1b-V88 even if it originated in EUrope, doesn't make them any less African, no more than E1b in Europe makes them less European.
V-88 is definitely a African lineage today even though ultimately it doesn't originate in Africa. The Toubou also are definitely Africans, but are they "black" Africans? You will notice that somebody like Albinolass doesn't want to touch any of these more "robust" Hamites with a 500m stick since many of them resemble exactly what he considers to be the "true Nigger".
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posted
Can anybody link a study demonstrating Toubou’s linguistic affiliation with other Nilo-Saharan languages? How do we know that the Teda-Daza languages are actually Nilo-Saharan languages? Whats to say the Teda-Daza languages aren't Nilo-Saharan but rather Afro-Asiatic, like how Songhay may actually belong to the Berber phylum?
Off topic of the Toubous, but on V-88, how does one explain that the Yoruba share a paticular V-88 clade with two “black” Berber groups yet the Hausa have none, at least according to this dataset.
quote:Originally posted by Tukulur:
More genomes needed?
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posted
^ I think Elmaestro was referring to a population not an individual but since when would it be impossible for an individual to have both lineages since males carry both Y-chromosomes and mitochondria.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I think Elmaestro was referring to a population not an individual but since when would it be impossible for an individual to have both lineages since males carry both Y-chromosomes and mitochondria.
Of course it's possible but he said "in africa we have one of those cases where a mt haplogroup (U5b) is clearly linked with a paternal Haplogroup (V88)"
I would like to know what the source is for such a link. For it to be credible it would have to indicate people and the places they came from who carry both lineages, demonstrating a clear link
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posted
tLioness is AI. tLioness' OP includes a population carrying both U5 and V88 The source for the link is me, Look at the context I mentioned that link in. Search the mthaplogroups for populations who have V88... or vice versa. Don't use me for the sole purpose of boosting interest in your threads. I'll likely ignore you.
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