US Army deserter André Lawrence Shepherd has applied for asylum in Germany, his lawyer told reporters on Thursday. Shepherd said he did not want to participate in a war that violates international law.
He said he had submitted his asylum request on Wednesday, although the Federal Agency for Migration and Refugees told the DPA news agency it did not have a record of such a document.
Shepherd, 31, has previously served in Iraq where he repaired and maintained Apache helicopters. "I believe that the helicopters are responsible for a substantial number of civilian deaths," he told reporters in Frankfurt. "I am ashamed that I was a part of these horrible acts."
Shepherd has appealed to both the Geneva Refugee Convention and EU guidelines that provide protection from persecution for deserters if the military services in question are seen as having violated international law.
Shepherd, who is from Cleveland, Ohio, deserted in April 2007 when he learned he would be sent back to Iraq. He is the second US soldier to have asked for asylum in Germany, although he would be the first to be receive it. According to the government, an application submitted by a US soldier in 2007 was later withdrawn. Shepherd said he thought many other soldiers would follow his example if Germany did approve is asylum request.
According to his lawyer Reinhard Marx, since Shepherd is still a member of the US Army, NATO statute says he could be arrested in Germany and sent before a military court. However, under the Geneva Refugee Convention Germany must provide him protection from seizure until a decision is made on his asylum application. Marx emphasized on Thursday that the Convention takes precedence over the NATO statute.
A US Army Europe spokesperson told The Local that the military would not be involved in the matter. "Matters involving the federal agencies of a sovereign foreign government and the status of U.S. citizens in foreign countries are matters for the State Department," he said.
Based on State Department information that the spokesperson has, less than one percent of soldiers desert, usually for reasons other than conscientious objection, and numbers have reportedly gone down by several hundred soldiers since 9-11.
The US military does not actively look for deserters the spokesman said, but if they are returned to military authorities, they are subject to military law which punishes each case individually.
Politicians on the left side of the political spectrum called for solidarity with Shepherd. Hans-Christian Ströbele of the Green party wrote in a letter to the soldier that the military conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan would only end when more soldiers "said 'no' in a similarly radical way to any participation in war."
Parliamentarians of the Left Party and refugee organizations called on the federal government to support the asylum application. According to the asylum group Pro Asyl, Germany's experience with National Socialism gives it a special duty "to respect the decisions made by conscientious objectors and deserters."
US army deserter requests political asylum in Germany Berlin,[/N] Nov 27, IRNA Germany-US-Military
An American soldier who deserted the US army 18 months ago to prevent a second deployment in Iraq has requested political asylum in Germany, the online site of the US military daily Stars and Stripes reported Thursday.
Handing his asylum petition Wednesday to a German federal office in charge of migration and refugee affairs in the southern city of Giessen, US army specialist Andre L. Shepherd alleged he was forced to fight an illegal war in Iraq.
In the asylum request, the first of its kind since the Vietnam War according to Shepherd's German lawyer Reinhard Marx, the deserter said he did not want to take part in a war that violates international law, citing Article 2.4 of the UN charter.
It also invoked the likelihood of him being accused of "war crimes which he did not want to be a party to." Shepherd who had worked as an Apache helicopter mechanic at a US military base in the south German town of Katterbach has been AWOL from his unit since April 2007.
Germany hosts dozens of US army and air Force installations, from which tens of thousands of troops funnel through on their way to Afghanistan or Iraq every year. ============================================================
[B]Canada Expels an American Deserter From the Iraq War
By IAN AUSTEN Published: July 16, 2008 OTTAWA — An American Army deserter who sought refuge in Canada from the war in Iraq was expelled Tuesday to the United States. The deserter, Robin Long, a native of Boise, Idaho, is believed to be the first from the Iraq war returned by the Canadian government. Mr. Long was expelled a day after the Federal Court of Canada rejected his request to delay his removal order pending further legal appeals. That decision and Mr. Long’s expulsion were somewhat unexpected. Two other American deserters received Federal Court permission this month to stay in Canada to continue their appeals. Since the Iraq war began in 2003, about 200 people have abandoned the United States military and fled to Canada, according to groups that represent their interests and provide them with support, legally and otherwise. “This is just one skirmish,” said Bob Ages, the chairman of the Vancouver War Resisters Support Campaign. “Despite the current government strategy of picking on resisters, the tide has turned in our favor both in the legal and political spheres.” While many Canadians support the deserters’ efforts to remain in Canada, the deserters have not been welcomed as warmly as deserters and draft dodgers were during the war in Vietnam. Canada has not backed the war in Iraq. But its Conservative government has ignored a nonbinding motion demanding asylum for deserters that was approved in June by Parliament, where Conservatives do not control a majority of the votes. Changes in Canadian immigration laws since the Vietnam War leave a refugee claim process as the only legal avenue for deserters to remain in Canada. But that process, intended to screen asylum seekers fleeing violence and repression generally from poor and unstable nations, requires several tests that are difficult for deserters from the United States to pass. The federal Immigration Department has swiftly acted against several deserters who have failed in the initial rounds of making claims, including Mr. Long. Sadia Qureshi, a spokeswoman for Diane Finley, the immigration minister, said agents from the Canada Border Services Agency sent Mr. Long back to the United States from British Columbia, where he had been living, at 9:55 a.m. local time. Representatives of several Canadian government departments said that privacy laws prohibited them from discussing the specifics of Mr. Long’s case. John Brent, a spokesman for Stockwell Day, the public safety minister, said by e-mail, “Our government is committed to enforcing removal orders against those persons who are inadmissible to Canada.” Thomas Schreiber, the chief of United States border protection in Blaine, Wash., said that Mr. Long had been sent to his border crossing rather than the main crossing at the Pacific Highway to avoid a demonstration against the Canadian removal order. Mr. Schreiber said that immediately after Mr. Long had been handed over he was arrested, adding that he would probably be taken to Fort Lewis, Wash., on Tuesday night. Late Tuesday afternoon, Maj. Nathan Banks, a spokesman for the United States Army, said that the military had not been told about Mr. Long’s expulsion. But Major Banks said Mr. Long would eventually be returned to Fort Knox, Ky., his home base, for disciplinary procedures. Major Banks declined to say what punishment Mr. Long faced, but lawyers for deserters in Canada said it could include prison and the equivalent of a felony conviction. Mr. Long, who is 25, joined the Army in 2003 to become a tank commander and fled to Canada with his partner and two children in 2005. He was arrested twice on charges of immigration violations in Canada, including not notifying the government that he had moved from a remote part of Ontario to Nelson, British Columbia. Bill Siksay, a New Democratic member of Parliament from British Columbia who has been involved with deserter issues, dismissed the significance of those charges. “These were small issue compared to the larger issues of the war in Iraq,” he said. “I’m shocked by this.”
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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December 15, 2001, dawned overcast at Pakistan's Chaman crossing point into Afghanistan, and Al-Jazeera reporter Abdelhaq Sadah and cameraman Sami Muhyideen al-Haj were anxious to get moving. Just across the border, the Taliban had fled Kandahar, their rule effectively ended by a fierce U.S. air and Afghan ground assault. The pair's assignment was to cover the aftermath.
They wouldn't get far, as Sadah recalls today. When they presented their passports, a Pakistani border guard grew angry. Sadah could go through, the officer barked, but there was a problem with al-Haj's passport. The officer produced an English-language notice from Pakistani intelligence instructing border guards to apprehend al-Haj for suspected links to al-Qaeda, Sadah recalled.
Both journalists were puzzled. Several times over two months, al-Haj had crossed Chaman with another Al-Jazeera crew without incident. Just a few days earlier, Sadah and al-Haj had traveled across the border to Spinboldak, where they reported on damage to the main Afghan road from Chaman to Kandahar.
Al-Haj thought there was a misunderstanding. The written order that the border guard produced listed the number of his old Sudanese passport, which he had lost two years earlier. A Pakistani intelligence official identifying himself as Major Nadeem arrived at the border later that day and told the two journalists not to worry. The next morning, Sadah said, the major drove off with al-Haj.
Behind Prison Walls
More than 100 journalists are jailed worldwide, CPJ research shows. In this special report, CPJ also examines secret prisons in Eritrea and how the Internet has led to more imprisonments. Slipping from Sight Virtual Reach of Faraway Jails Prison Snapshot: A Statistical Look "Since that time, I have not seen Sami," Sadah told CPJ. Neither have al-Haj's colleagues, family, and friends.
Al-Haj thus began an odyssey that would take him from Pakistan to Afghanistan and then on to an 8-by-7-foot detention cell at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he remains today with some 450 other detainees the Bush administration has designated "enemy combatants."
Championed as a prisoner of conscience on Al-Jazeera though virtually unknown in U.S. media circles, al-Haj is the only confirmed journalist now imprisoned at Guantanamo. The U.S. military alleges that he worked as a financial courier for Chechen rebels, and that he assisted al-Qaeda and extremist figures. In one taped message, Osama bin Laden purportedly called for his release.
Yet al-Haj has been held for nearly five years on the basis of secret evidence; he has not been convicted or even charged with a crime. Until this year--when an Associated Press lawsuit prompted the Pentagon to identify the detainees--the military would not acknowledge al-Haj was in custody. Al-Haj's lawyer, who has been barred from attending his client's hearings, has called the allegations baseless and the justice system at Guantanamo a sham.
"There is absolutely zero evidence that he has any history in terrorism at all," said Clive Stafford Smith, legal director of Reprieve, a London-based human rights group, who took up al-Haj's case in 2005. Stafford Smith contends that al-Haj's continued detention is political, and the main focus of U.S. interrogators has not been al-Haj's alleged terrorist activities but obtaining intelligence on Al-Jazeera and its staff.
Whatever the truth, al-Haj's detention has raised questions about the U.S. military's treatment of journalists as it pursues a global war on terrorism. In 2005, the U.S. detention of al-Haj and at least four journalists in Iraq placed the United States sixth among countries jailing journalists, just behind Uzbekistan and tied with Burma. In Iraq, each journalist was held for months without charge. Each was eventually freed; no charges were substantiated in any of the cases.
Al-Haj's supporters ask that he be given a fair trial. In June, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that military tribunals established for Guantanamo detainees were unlawful. The court said the Bush administration must ensure minimal due process as outlined in U.S. military and international law, or it must seek congressional approval for detainee tribunals. By September, Congress approved guidelines that allow detainees the right of counsel and the ability to see evidence against them. But the guidelines still permit indefinite detention, and they allow the use of hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercion.
Following his detention at Chaman, Sami al-Haj spent the next 23 days in the custody of Pakistani intelligence officials before being taken to the nearby city of Quetta, where he was handed over to U.S. forces, according to Al-Jazeera.
Al-Haj was soon taken to the newly established U.S. air base at Bagram, outside the Afghan capital Kabul, for 16 days which, by his account, were the "longest days of my life." Al-Haj told Stafford Smith that he was severely beaten by U.S. troops, who accused him of recording videos of Osama bin Laden for Al-Jazeera. Al-Haj denied the accusation, and Stafford Smith said he believes the military confused his client with another, similarly named cameraman. The accusation has not resurfaced publicly.
On January 23, 2002, the U.S. military brought al-Haj to Kandahar where he remained until June 13, when he was transported to Guantanamo Bay, bound and gagged, along with dozens of other prisoners. Through his lawyer and in letters he has written from prison, al-Haj has described harsh conditions at Guantanamo and has accused U.S. troops of depriving him of sleep as an interrogation technique. He said he suffers from rheumatism and has been denied medication to prevent a recurrence of throat cancer.
Al-Haj's disappearance wasn't made public until September 18, 2002, when Al-Jazeera announced in a press release that its cameraman was being held at Guantanamo. For months, the station said, it sought to resolve the matter through behind-the-scenes contacts with Pakistani and U.S. officials, fearing that publicity would jeopardize any release. Pakistani intelligence warned one of the station's reporters not to inquire about al-Haj. U.S. officials were silent.
"We have not really received any official detail from the Americans about what exactly the charges are," said Waddah Khanfar, Al-Jazeera's general manager.
To viewers of the Arab world's most watched news channel, al-Haj is a familiar face. Al-Jazeera regularly reports on developments in his case, has devoted a section of its popular Web site to the detained journalist, and, this year, broadcast a 53-minute documentary detailing his story. Yet for all the attention, al-Haj remains an enigma.
Few Al-Jazeera staffers knew him well during his brief stint at the station. By all accounts, he had virtually no experience in journalism before joining one of the world's most influential news organizations.
Born in 1969 and raised in central Sudan, al-Haj showed a keen interest in media, according to his younger brother, Asim, who recalled that he "loved reading and writing, and also photography." Asim and another family member said al-Haj studied English in India.
Discouraged by the lack of journalism opportunities in Sudan, Asim said, he bypassed a career in media and got a job in the United Arab Emirates. In the late 1990s, he worked as an administrative assistant for the Sharjah-based Union Beverages, which makes soft drinks for the Middle East and Asia. His lawyer, Stafford Smith, said al-Haj also worked for an import-export company called Romat International. Public listings show Union Beverages and Romat belong to a group of companies owned by Muhammad Abdullah al-Umran, a UAE national.
At around the same time, al-Haj met his wife, Asma, an Azeri national. They married in 1998, had a son, Muhammad, now 6, and later took up residence in Doha, Qatar.
Asma said her husband started work at Al-Jazeera in April 2000 after responding to an employment ad. He had ambition, knowledge of computers, and a strong command of English, she told CPJ. Al-Haj's lawyer and Al-Jazeera journalists said al-Haj started on a freelance basis as a trainee. Al-Jazeera reported that he was initially assigned to help cover Chechnya but never traveled there.
Fawzi al-Bushra, a long-time Al-Jazeera reporter and fellow Sudanese national, befriended al-Haj and remembers him as quiet and inexperienced but eager to prove himself. "He was a man with no credentials," al-Bushra remembered. Still, al-Bushra and other Al-Jazeera reporters said it wasn't unusual for the station to train novice journalists.
By most accounts, al-Haj's big opportunity came after 9/11 and the subsequent U.S.-led assault to unseat the Taliban in Afghanistan. Al-Jazeera, which prized exclusive images from war zones, signed al-Haj to a contract at a time when it needed cameramen, said former station director Muhammad Jasem Ali. "Sami had some training in camera and we trained him in videophone," Ali said, noting that it was difficult to find anyone willing to go to "hot areas" like Afghanistan.
Al-Haj was eager to demonstrate his worth. Several Al-Jazeera staffers said he volunteered to go to Afghanistan when there were few takers for the assignment. Al-Bushra said he advised his inexperienced colleague against going, but al-Haj insisted. "I remember saying, 'You are going to a war, not a picnic,'" al-Bushra said. "He said, 'OK, but that will give me an opportunity to prove myself.'"
Al-Haj's family was nervous, too. "But after a long discussion Sami said ... he couldn't say no because he was new," said his brother, Asim.
In October 2001, new contract with Al-Jazeera in hand, al-Haj joined a crew headed by reporter Youssef al-Shouly in Taliban-controlled southeastern Afghanistan. The men worked together for nearly two months, often putting in 15-hour days, al-Shouly recalled. Using a handheld camera and videophone, al-Haj documented the civilian fallout from U.S. bombs, a common feature of Al-Jazeera's war reporting, and his shots were some of the only images coming from southeastern Afghanistan at the time. Al-Haj could be moved to tears by the bombing, al-Shouly said.
Al-Shouly and al-Haj were briefly detained by Taliban forces for reporting without authorization, according to Al-Jazeera. It was at Chaman, though, that al-Haj's career was put on indefinite hold.
For much of the last five years, the reasons surrounding al-Haj's detention have been secret. In September 2002, CPJ wrote to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, calling on the Pentagon to detail the basis for the detention. CPJ received no response. Spokesman Bryan Whitman did not respond to requests for comment for this story.
At CPJ's request, the Pentagon did provide declassified transcripts of hearings involving al-Haj. Those documents, along with information provided by al-Haj's attorney, shed some light on the case.
Military officials have made what appear to be several troubling allegations against al-Haj, according to a summary of his 2004 Combatant Status Review Tribunal, a hearing to determine whether detainees were "enemy combatants," and a transcript of his 2005 Administrative Review Board, a parole-type proceeding.
The military labels the allegations as "evidence." But a review of the public documents shows that they are assertions of wrongdoing without the documentation or testimony normally considered by a court to be evidence. Supporting evidence, if any, is part of the U.S. military's classified file--off-limits to the public, al-Haj, and his lawyer.
One prime allegation is that al-Haj served as a financial courier for Chechen rebels and other armed groups in the Caucuses, delivering large sums of cash from the United Arab Emirates to Azerbaijan on several occasions between 1996 and 2000. Azerbaijan was a known transfer point for arms and materiel in support of Chechen armed groups.
U.S. officials allege that al-Haj made cash deliveries on behalf of his boss at Union Beverages, Abdel Latif al-Umran, to the Baku branch of the Islamic charity Al-Haramain. Al-Umran, son of the company's listed owner, did not respond to several requests for comment. The elder al-Umran also did not respond to messages from CPJ. Al-Haramain was not on a U.S. terrorist watch list at the time, although it was placed there after the September 11 attacks.
Al-Haj is also accused of meeting with and helping secure a visa for reputed al-Qaeda founder Mamdouh Mahmoud Salim, who was extradited to the United States on conspiracy charges stemming from the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa. Salim was convicted in 2004 of maiming a Manhattan corrections officer.
Military officials also say al-Haj falsified Romat International documents as a way to establish a corporation in Azerbaijan. Investigators allege Salim was affiliated with Romat, but provide no details about Salim's role or the intent of the alleged scheme.
On their face, other accusations appear to be an indictment of al-Haj's journalistic work. At his 2005 Administrative Review Board hearing, military officials said al-Haj had "interviewed several Taliban officials" and top al-Qaeda figure Abu Hafs al-Mauritani while in Afghanistan.
The U.S. government's classified file could include other allegations, but such accusations, if any, have not been disclosed to the public, al-Haj, or Stafford Smith.
In a January 2005 report in The Wall Street Journal, U.S. commanders acknowledged that many Guantanamo detainees are not a threat and likely have no valuable intelligence about al-Qaeda or the Taliban.
Stafford Smith said his client did nothing wrong and has no involvement with terror groups. He said al-Haj traveled to Azerbaijan for family and business reasons, delivering money for his boss to Islamic charities on one, or possibly two occasions.
"At the time Sami didn't know what it was for," said Stafford Smith, who said his client acted solely on his boss' instructions. "He thought it was going to charity." On one occasion, when he was carrying US$220,000 to Azerbaijan, al-Haj declared the cash to customs officials, the lawyer said.
The defense lawyer said his client picked up Salim at an airport on one occasion, and drove his family around Dubai another time, both at his boss' direction. Stafford Smith said that al-Haj helped secure a visa to the United Arab Emirates, not for Salim, but for Salim's relatives, again at the behest of his employer.
He said that the military has disclosed so little about the corporate document allegation that he can't respond substantively. "I really don't know what they are saying and neither does Sami," Stafford Smith said. "We haven't seen anything on this. Sami has no idea and can't respond."
In all, he said, the accusations are pernicious because--without evidence, witnesses, or even a statement of what crime was committed--they cannot be rebutted. "It is impossible to defend against 'charges' that are not real," he said. "I could charge you with being unpleasant to your mother, and you would have a hard time disproving it."
Most of Stafford Smith's information has come from his eight interviews with al-Haj at Guantanamo, information and documentation al-Haj has provided, and from recently declassified documents.
Stafford Smith cites shifting allegations against his client as evidence of the flawed justice system at Guantanamo. U.S. authorities have dropped at least three original accusations against al-Haj--that he had disseminated terrorist propaganda on the Internet; that he traveled extensively throughout the Middle East and Eastern Europe; and that he had arranged to transport shoulder-fired Stinger missiles from Afghanistan to Chechnya. The missile charge, the lawyer said, appeared to be based on a badly garbled conversation in which another detainee talked about an attempt to sell the weapons.
But for Stafford Smith, the most persuasive evidence that the case is a sham is that al-Haj's interrogators hardly seem interested in the allegations themselves. Virtually all of the roughly 130 interrogations al-Haj has been subjected to have focused on Al-Jazeera, Stafford Smith said. He said military officials have appeared intent on establishing a relationship between Al-Jazeera and al-Qaeda, questioning al-Haj about prominent network journalists, the station's finances, and how it pays for airline tickets.
At one point, U.S. military interrogators allegedly told al-Haj that he would be released if he agreed to inform U.S. intelligence authorities about the satellite news network's activities. Al-Haj refused. Bush administration officials have made no secret of their distaste for Al-Jazeera, repeatedly labeling its programming inflammatory and accusing the station of working with terrorists.
Al-Haj professed his innocence during a 40-minute hearing before the Administrative Review Board on August 12, 2005. Although he refused to answer questions about the accusations on the advice of his lawyer, a transcript of the hearing includes an impassioned plea to the review board. The transcript quotes al-Haj as saying that he misses his family deeply and that he does not understand how he could be considered an enemy combatant.
"With all due respect, a mistake has been made because I have never been a member of any terrorist group and I never took part in any terrorist or violent act," he told the board. "I can say without hesitation that I am not a threat to the United States or to anyone else. I strongly condemn any act that is taken against innocent people, and I strongly condemn the tragic attack on the World Trade Center in New York. Islam properly understood would never allow the killing of innocent people in this way."
U.S. officials have described the detainees at Guantanamo Bay as "the worst of worst," but colleagues and relatives find it difficult to reconcile that description with the shy, unassuming man they knew. Stafford Smith calls him "one of the most cheerful and upbeat people--always smiling--that I have ever met."
"He loved his wife and son--he always spoke about them," said Al-Jazeera's Youssef al-Shouly, who remembers al-Haj as a practicing Muslim not given to extremist statements. "He is a gentle person," said al-Haj's wife, Asma. "He never did anything and the Americans realize that, but the Americans put themselves in a bind and they cannot get out of it."
The review board has singled out al-Haj for very good behavior, and, according to hearing transcripts, he frequently leads prayers in cellblocks and teaches inmates English and the Quran.
Al-Haj's supporters maintain that his case has been hampered by bad publicity--or no publicity at all. Falling squarely in the first category is a purported audiotape from Osama bin Laden in which he called for the release of al-Haj and others by name. Although the authenticity of the May 23, 2006, message has been questioned by some experts, it said Guantanamo detainees "have no connection whatsoever to the events of September 11 and even stranger is that many of them have no connection with al-Qaeda in the first place."
Al-Jazeera staffers also criticize the station's initially meek show of public support for al-Haj, which contrasted with the outpouring for its star reporter, Taysir Allouni, who was jailed in Spain in 2003 on terrorism charges. "The fact it took them so long to intervene harmed him immensely," said Stafford Smith, who added that he didn't want to be "too critical of Al-Jazeera because it is in a difficult position."
Was al-Haj a knowing or unwitting conspirator with terrorist groups? Or is he entirely innocent--a journalist plucked from the field while covering the world's biggest story? What crime has he committed? What is the evidence against him? Only a fair and transparent legal process can provide those answers.
"The rule of law should prevail," said colleague al-Bushra. "He's spent five years now without a trial."
Joel Campagna is senior program coordinator responsible for the Middle East and North Africa at the Committee to Protect Journalists. CPJ Research Associate Ivan Karakashian contributed to this report.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Still I see too many Blacks participating in this genocide against Muslims. This is very important as the US is planning new invasions in Iran and Africa as well.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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Blacks are diverse. Too diverse for their own good. ~8% of black American vote Republican. These are the 10% of blacks who went against the 90% majority who opposed the war, or had no opinion.
Today, we see which group was right and which were dead wrong.
Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition.
Blacks are enticed into military service with the hopes of earning tuition.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
A new approach perhaps? Change yourself and so change your situation. Blacks should be worthy for freedom too, and stop oppressing and exploiting each other. They should make coalitions because the White's are not a monolith. Black on black crime should stop. Beginning on this very forum with this con-artist using over thirthy nicks by now.
posted
Meninarmer, Sorry to say this but I feel disappointed in your racist post.
First: It is not "the white mans military". This kind of talk is divisive. It is America's military.
Now I am a pacifist and oppose to war but I don't think it is a bad thing to have a military. I am not opposed to defending our country or our allies. For instance I would not be opposed for our military going into Dafur and rescuing the helpless people there.
Second: "Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition." What kind of BS statement is this?
I have not gotten an inheritance nor have my parents stole anything. My parents worked for everything they have and I have worked my butt off for everything I have. I put myself though school. My sister put herself through school while raising four kids. She worked as a waitress while doing it. When I started school, I was divorced and worked three jobs, eventually dropping down to one.
I find your generalizations offensive. Would you like me to generalize about all blacks from the bad experiences I have had from some? I certainly could.
For instance the black council member who I did work for who never paid me. Him knowing that I was struggling financially and a single mother while he had a good paying job.
Or the black couple that I did work for at his office. The man constantly hitting on me while his wife sat in the next room. He owned his own business, the property too and a nice home. Yet I saw him cheat his "brothers" who were customers, while treating them badly to the point where I felt embarrassed, and I saw him using food stamps to buy food. Do you think he was a cheat because he was black?
Or the black owned upholstery business that I took a small job to who took forever to finish it and when I would drop by the store they would be sleeping in the back. When I finally got my little chair back they had done an awful job. They had lost the pillow and the tacks were not even put in the same distance apart. I could of done better myself.
The reason I can't generalize is because of the black school board member and his wife who I did a lot of work for. They paid me well and we worked well together. I respect them and they respect me. They even tried to get my money from the council member telling me "we know how he is".
Or my dear friend who is as good a person as you would want to meet.
Sorry to go off on a rant but I never expected this kind of talk from you. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition.
Blacks are enticed into military service with the hopes of earning tuition.
That is TOO funny!!!! hahahahahaha I guess I must be black then because according to your statement I surely can't be white. You just continue to show your ignorance meninarmer.
As far as deserters go, no one twisted their arm to join up. It's an "all volunteer" military in the US and the last time I checked there wasn't a draft. What did these guys think they were signing up for? A trip to Disneyland? Most likely a Democrat who realized you actually have to give something back after receiving the military benefits/pay. Wow, what a concept.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Meninarmer, Sorry to say this but I feel disappointed in your racist post.
First: It is not "the white mans military". This kind of talk is divisive. It is America's military.
Now I am a pacifist and oppose to war but I don't think it is a bad thing to have a military. I am not opposed to defending our country or our allies. For instance I would not be opposed for our military going into Dafur and rescuing the helpless people there.
Second: "Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition." What kind of BS statement is this?
I have not gotten an inheritance nor have my parents stole anything. My parents worked for everything they have and I have worked my butt off for everything I have. I put myself though school. My sister put herself through school while raising four kids. She worked as a waitress while doing it. When I started school, I was divorced and worked three jobs, eventually dropping down to one.
I find your generalizations offensive. Would you like me to generalize about all blacks from the bad experiences I have had from some? I certainly could.
For instance the black council member who I did work for who never paid me. Him knowing that I was struggling financially and a single mother while he had a good paying job.
Or the black couple that I did work for at his office. The man constantly hitting on me while his wife sat in the next room. He owned his own business, the property too and a nice home. Yet I saw him cheat his "brothers" who were customers, while treating them badly to the point where I felt embarrassed, and I saw him using food stamps to buy food. Do you think he was a cheat because he was black?
Or the black owned upholstery business that I took a small job to who took forever to finish it and when I would drop by the store they would be sleeping in the back. When I finally got my little chair back they had done an awful job. They had lost the pillow and the tacks were not even put in the same distance apart. I could of done better myself.
The reason I can't generalize is because of the black school board member and his wife who I did a lot of work for. They paid me well and we worked well together. I respect them and they respect me. They even tried to get my money from the council member telling me "we know how he is".
Or my dear friend who is as good a person as you would want to meet.
Sorry to go off on a rant but I never expected this kind of talk from you.
I'm sorry you feel this way Of_Gold, but I have served in the military, and I don't believe you have. If the US military goes into Dafur, it won't be to "rescue" anybody, but to place Africa under US military control. Or, do you believe the US/Israel doesn't have a hand in what has happened in Dafur?
I could share far too many examples of black men I've met who came back from combat and were completely forgotten by the military they fought and gave their lives, limbs, and sometimes, minds for. The US presently has over 300,000 homeless veterans living on it's streets. It that an example of a country worthy of giving your life for? My nephew joined in 2001 to earn college money. He returned last year after doing 3 tours. He was blown up twice, once on his first tour and once on his third. He has completely lost his hearing, one eye, and can hardly walk. The military repaid him by not giving him his due disability and so he had to move in with his mother. When they finally did give him his disability, they would not give him the 100% he deserved, by haggled and gave him 60% disability. Hardly enough to pay his bills, so now he is working as a janitor.
Now with no hearing and limited sight, he has given up on the idea of college.
This all doesn't address black Americans going over to Africa to kill Africans when the military calls on them to do so. As the Vietcong said to black soldiers in Vietnam, "Go home Soul brothers. We have no fight with you." I agree. Blacks don't start these wars. Whites do even before they try some foreign thing called, diplomacy. I say, if whites wish to fight these wars, then blacks should let them. On their own.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition.
Blacks are enticed into military service with the hopes of earning tuition.
That is TOO funny!!!! hahahahahaha I guess I must be black then because according to your statement I surely can't be white. You just continue to show your ignorance meninarmer.
As far as deserters go, no one twisted their arm to join up. It's an "all volunteer" military in the US and the last time I checked there wasn't a draft. What did these guys think they were signing up for? A trip to Disneyland? Most likely a Democrat who realized you actually have to give something back after receiving the military benefits/pay. Wow, what a concept.
History and fact are on my side. I won't bother to go into details with a white boy. You've been hearing it for decades and still promote racism. What I say will make absolutely no difference.
Guess how many of the US's 300,000 homeless war veterans are black?
Following WWII returning veterans were given low interest VA home loans. They were denied to blacks but freely given to whites. That's right. Something was GIVEN to them, and they in turn, handed it down to you. Therefore, You've received handouts too. If not in that way, in many other ways whites receive handouts in America, which is exactly why America is broke right now, Whites, democrat of Republican (with more Republican) receiving too many free handouts.
Look at Detroit. They lose billions of dollars. Receive a free bail-out, and the incompetent whites running those businesses aren't even penalized, but continue to receive a free HAND-OUT, first by the shareholders, and now by the government. They are about to receive big fat government welfare checks. Sure, you whites call it, hard work. I call it what it really is. A big fat handout that makes social welfare look like pocket change.
Had Obama been a cocaine using AWOL national guardsmen, do you believe he would be President-Elect today? Of course not. Only whites receive this kind of HAND-OUT in America.
A black man fighting white man's war is a sucker.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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First, let's get the gender correct. . .I'm a female.
Second, we can talk all day long about what's happened in the past. Plenty of our white soldiers were spat upon after returning from Viet Nam. Go to any VA hospital and see how many different races are being seen for their service-connected injuries. I should know, I used to work in one.
I'll repeat again that NO black man in the military today was drafted or forced to join up. It's on their own free will so any whining and complaining is no longer justified about fighting some "white man's war".
Succeeding despite whatever tragic circumstances have been handed to you in life is called "determination". How many black men have succumbed to gangs, killing each other on the streets, drugs, and end up in jail. Guess you want to blame that on the "white man", too.
These are just excuses on your part. I could also share plenty of stories of people who have made it despite negative events happening in their life. I made it, too, and I wasn't given a "free pass" because of my color. In fact, I was discriminated against because of my color. Even today I see civil service jobs advertised where those who graduated from "historically black colleges/universities" are given first priority in hiring. It's all about having the desire to get out of the situation you are in and making it better. Yes, you have to make some sacrifices to do it but it can be done.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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Second, we can talk all day long about what's happened in the past.
Very easy to say when you are the beneficiary of the past. Let's not talk about the tens of millions paid to these majority white corporate CEOs who've run the nation into the ground yet still get a free handout million dollar bonus for being idiots. To fire the fools you have to pay them a golden parachute handout of $20M. Why is this true? Because of the past, and will still be so in the future. Get with it babe. Free handouts to whites have ruined the country.
The chief white in the country, President Bush, is the main symbol of white privilege. Here is a man who has NEVER worked a hard day in his life, was given free handouts all of his life. Attended the best college in the land, yet is one of the biggest losers in history. Other Republicans are mirror images of Mr. Bush. Free loading welfare recipients, except their welfare free handouts are millions and billions of taxpayer dollars. Republicans stand for free handouts and corporate welfare.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: You truly had no place in serving your nation.
I've served my nation in many ways. However, I don't serve whites seeking oil. I'd prefer to expose you racists. I am not alone. Black military enrollment is still down 44%. Ask yourself, why. Let YOUR sons fight for Oil and territorial control. My sons have better things to do.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Not only are you racist, meninarmer, but you are a very bitter man. I feel sorry for you to have that much hatred built up inside of you. Just think what you could do with all that negative energy and bitterness if you wanted to do something positive with it. What's even more sad is that you've passed it on to the next generation with your sons. The cycle will never be broken. . .what a shame.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Meninarmer, Sorry to say this but I feel disappointed in your racist post.
First: It is not "the white mans military". This kind of talk is divisive. It is America's military.
Now I am a pacifist and oppose to war but I don't think it is a bad thing to have a military. I am not opposed to defending our country or our allies. For instance I would not be opposed for our military going into Dafur and rescuing the helpless people there.
Second: "Whites get inheritance money or their parents steal enough to pay college tuition." What kind of BS statement is this?
I have not gotten an inheritance nor have my parents stole anything. My parents worked for everything they have and I have worked my butt off for everything I have. I put myself though school. My sister put herself through school while raising four kids. She worked as a waitress while doing it. When I started school, I was divorced and worked three jobs, eventually dropping down to one.
I find your generalizations offensive. Would you like me to generalize about all blacks from the bad experiences I have had from some? I certainly could.
For instance the black council member who I did work for who never paid me. Him knowing that I was struggling financially and a single mother while he had a good paying job.
Or the black couple that I did work for at his office. The man constantly hitting on me while his wife sat in the next room. He owned his own business, the property too and a nice home. Yet I saw him cheat his "brothers" who were customers, while treating them badly to the point where I felt embarrassed, and I saw him using food stamps to buy food. Do you think he was a cheat because he was black?
Or the black owned upholstery business that I took a small job to who took forever to finish it and when I would drop by the store they would be sleeping in the back. When I finally got my little chair back they had done an awful job. They had lost the pillow and the tacks were not even put in the same distance apart. I could of done better myself.
The reason I can't generalize is because of the black school board member and his wife who I did a lot of work for. They paid me well and we worked well together. I respect them and they respect me. They even tried to get my money from the council member telling me "we know how he is".
Or my dear friend who is as good a person as you would want to meet.
Sorry to go off on a rant but I never expected this kind of talk from you.
I'm sorry you feel this way Of_Gold, but I have served in the military, and I don't believe you have. If the US military goes into Dafur, it won't be to "rescue" anybody, but to place Africa under US military control. Or, do you believe the US/Israel doesn't have a hand in what has happened in Dafur?
I could share far too many examples of black men I've met who came back from combat and were completely forgotten by the military they fought and gave their lives, limbs, and sometimes, minds for. The US presently has over 300,000 homeless veterans living on it's streets. It that an example of a country worthy of giving your life for? My nephew joined in 2001 to earn college money. He returned last year after doing 3 tours. He was blown up twice, once on his first tour and once on his third. He has completely lost his hearing, one eye, and can hardly walk. The military repaid him by not giving him his due disability and so he had to move in with his mother. When they finally did give him his disability, they would not give him the 100% he deserved, by haggled and gave him 60% disability. Hardly enough to pay his bills, so now he is working as a janitor.
Now with no hearing and limited sight, he has given up on the idea of college.
This all doesn't address black Americans going over to Africa to kill Africans when the military calls on them to do so. As the Vietcong said to black soldiers in Vietnam, "Go home Soul brothers. We have no fight with you." I agree. Blacks don't start these wars. Whites do even before they try some foreign thing called, diplomacy. I say, if whites wish to fight these wars, then blacks should let them. On their own.
No, I haven't and have no desire to but my cousin has, my dad and uncle did and my nephew does... all of them are white.
My gosh, listen to yourself, you sound like a black Hammer. I agree that the military men are forgotten but I know for certain that they are not all black. If you were in an all black army then it was not the American army. You are being very raciest meninarmer. How can you talk like this and condemn Hammer for being raciest?
As far as it being a white mans war, tell me the the color of Collin Powel and Condelisa Rice. I am white, this is not my war. I believe that you are confusing "white man" with "oil man" or "rich man".
This kind of talk is exactly why some whites would not vote for Obama. He would never talk like this.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Bonzo: Not only are you racist, meninarmer, but you are a very bitter man. I feel sorry for you to have that much hatred built up inside of you. Just think what you could do with all that negative energy and bitterness if you wanted to do something positive with it. What's even more sad is that you've passed it on to the next generation with your sons. The cycle will never be broken. . .what a shame.
LOL, a white person calling a black man a racist, as if it has a drop of credibility.
Some blacks use their frustrations to kill each other. That's OK with you. Some others like Rev. Wright channel their frustrations outwards to the source, whites. That frightens you. Stop hiding and take responsibility for who and what you are. You'll feel better about yourself and than perhaps you can make some not just feel good change, but REAL change.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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My gosh, listen to yourself, you sound like a black Hammer.
Whites tolerate people like Hammer. You sit across from them as they say racist things and simply tolerate it.
I am not a turn the other cheek kind of guy. It's not what people like Hammer say, but what they do when in a position of authority.
I really don't expect you to understand. As I said earlier, when the prospect of the Iraqi war broke out, 90% of White Americans polled voted, YES. While 90% of blacks polled voted, NO. Who was right and who was wrong. The nation is broke due to 100s of thousands, if not millions of rich white men giving themselves billion dollar welfare checks. Who benefits today from these free handouts to whites, their tens of millions of friends and families. When they die, who stands to inherit this loot. Yet, whites insist, they are not responsible. LOL Yes, I'm damn mad, because it's my and millions of other blacks money they're stealing and using exclusively as White welfare. Any black who isn't mad about giving their money to whites for free handouts is a damn fool.
Whites whine about $200 welfare checks to the poor, all the while paying themselves million dollar welfare check. When questioned, they use weak reverse psychology tricks calling reverse racism, or accusing others of getting the free-handouts they give themselves. Look at Bozo and TL nurture these racist like Hammer, and attempt to use the same weak strategy.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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When we tolerate people like Hammer and people like you it is to keep the peace. When appropriate I will and do speak my mind.
You are showing a good example of the pot calling the kettle black or white in this case. You are both part of the problem and you are both racist because you judge people by the color of their skin.
Shame on you.
Damn, I wish my million dollar welfare check would get here... Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Don't fool yourself, meninarmer. . .blacks can be MORE racist than a white person. I grew up in a very diverse culture, worked in places in all black neighborhoods, and (gasp) even dated black men. I've been around long enough to know that blacks can harbour more hatred towards anyone outside their race than anyone else.
Just tune into one of those talk shows. There can be a show with a white family saying they don't want their daughter/sister dating a black man or having babies with black men. The audience boos them & calls them racist and prejudiced. They get called all sorts of names and insulted because they feel the way they do.
A black family will come on the next show and express their dismay that their brother/son is dating a white woman & the audience claps when the black women lay into the "brother" saying they should have "black pride" and how a "sister" is much more than a white woman. . .how they need to keep the bloodline "pure" and not "mixed". Give me a break. Double standards if you ask me but then I don't expect you to ever admit there is.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: When we tolerate people like Hammer and people like you it is to keep the peace. When appropriate I will and do speak my mind.
You are showing a good example of the pot calling the kettle black or white in this case. You are both part of the problem and you are both racist because you judge people by the color of their skin.
Shame on you.
Damn, I wish my million dollar welfare check would get here...
Good post, of_gold.
LOL Let me know when you get your welfare check so I can start looking for mine! hahahaha Since I should have been getting one every month for the last 32 years, hmmmm. . .might add up to a million dollars by the time they add the interest. Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: When we tolerate people like Hammer and people like you it is to keep the peace. When appropriate I will and do speak my mind.
You are showing a good example of the pot calling the kettle black or white in this case. You are both part of the problem and you are both racist because you judge people by the color of their skin.
Shame on you.
Damn, I wish my million dollar welfare check would get here...
LOL, You don't know me, or anyone like me. You do know plenty of Hammer's though, and I know them. If you are not getting you welfare checks, it's because you haven't asked the right person. Move to Palin Country and you'll be sure to receiving one. In Texas, just join your local klan (easy to find, they are everywhere there) and you'll get many, as Hammer does.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: When we tolerate people like Hammer and people like you it is to keep the peace. When appropriate I will and do speak my mind.
You are showing a good example of the pot calling the kettle black or white in this case. You are both part of the problem and you are both racist because you judge people by the color of their skin.
Shame on you.
Damn, I wish my million dollar welfare check would get here...
Good post, of_gold.
LOL Let me know when you get your welfare check so I can start looking for mine! hahahaha Since I should have been getting one every month for the last 32 years, hmmmm. . .might add up to a million dollars by the time they add the interest.
You can't refute the reality of anything I've said. All you can do is offer the same lame excuses as Hammer and TL do. When America is conflicted, it's a fact that white democrats align with white Republicans in the interest of white America. 90% of whites voted FOR the war, democrat and Republican. Statistically, both you and other whites here were in agreement. If not, you were in the small minority. You need to understand this behavior before you can make any REAL change.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Nope, I was never for the war, so you are wrong.
I know plenty like you. And most of the year I have aligned myself with you, what color are you again?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: When we tolerate people like Hammer and people like you it is to keep the peace. When appropriate I will and do speak my mind.
You are showing a good example of the pot calling the kettle black or white in this case. You are both part of the problem and you are both racist because you judge people by the color of their skin.
Shame on you.
Damn, I wish my million dollar welfare check would get here...
Good post, of_gold.
LOL Let me know when you get your welfare check so I can start looking for mine! hahahaha Since I should have been getting one every month for the last 32 years, hmmmm. . .might add up to a million dollars by the time they add the interest.
No one ever told me that I could get money because I was white. I always thought that having a penis is what got you the big bucks. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Nope, I was never for the war, so you are wrong.
I know plenty like you. And most of the year I have aligned myself with you, what color are you again?
Than you are in the 10% minority who opposed the war. Congratulations!!!
I don't believe it was so much that you aligned with ME, but you made the wise decision to Align with TRUTH, as long as it wasn't too painful.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: No one ever told me that I could get money because I was white. I always thought that having a penis is what got you the big bucks.
If that were truth, I wouldn't be so feared and have a quazillion bucks in the bank, and Hammer's account would be overdrawn. Ahh, but alas, it is not so. Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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^ Damn Hammer. yet another niche. Real men need only 1 niche.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Nope, I was never for the war, so you are wrong.
I know plenty like you. And most of the year I have aligned myself with you, what color are you again?
Than you are in the 10% minority who opposed the war. Congratulations!!!
I don't believe it was so much that you aligned with ME, but you made the wise decision to Align with TRUTH, as long as it wasn't too painful.
Yes, I align with the truth and I still align with the truth. Too painful? I live in Texas, wtf are you talking about?
I and millions of other white people voted for Obama because we believe him to be the best man for the job. You on the other hand voted for him because he has black skin. Who is aligned with the truth?
You apparently are so blinded by hate that you can't see straight. Let me share a little secrete with you. "You reap what you sow". This explains why you have experienced so much racism. You are a raciest. Yes you are. Overwhelmingly so. You view the world as black and white.
Answer this. What was the skin color of those in Africa who sold your ancestors into slavery? What was the color of the man's skin who fought to free your ancestors from slavery? ANSWER: Black men sold your people into slavery and white men fought for their freedom. Yet, YOU choose to focus on the slave owners.
And you who have never been a slave, tell me who is better off, you or your brothers in Africa who sold your ancestor into slavery?
Martin Luther King had a dream. He put the wheels of that dream into motion. He focused on hope. Now years later, because millions or white men choose to judge a man, not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character, on January 20, 2009 the first black man will be sworn into the office of the highest position in America. Barack Obama the president of the United States of America.
"Little black boys and black girls have joined hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers", Yet YOU want to segregate them, and YOU want to divide them by skin color. You shame what King and Obama have achieved.
"When you change the way you look at things, the things that you look at change." ~ Dr. Wayne Dyer
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Nope, I was never for the war, so you are wrong.
I know plenty like you. And most of the year I have aligned myself with you, what color are you again?
Than you are in the 10% minority who opposed the war. Congratulations!!!
I don't believe it was so much that you aligned with ME, but you made the wise decision to Align with TRUTH, as long as it wasn't too painful.
Yes, I align with the truth and I still align with the truth. Too painful? I live in Texas, wtf are you talking about?
I and millions of other white people voted for Obama because we believe him to be the best man for the job. You on the other hand voted for him because he has black skin. Who is aligned with the truth?
You apparently are so blinded by hate that you can't see straight. Let me share a little secrete with you. "You reap what you sow". This explains why you have experienced so much racism. You are a raciest. Yes you are. Overwhelmingly so. You view the world as black and white.
Answer this. What was the skin color of those in Africa who sold your ancestors into slavery? What was the color of the man's skin who fought to free your ancestors from slavery? ANSWER: Black men sold your people into slavery and white men fought for their freedom. Yet, YOU choose to focus on the slave owners.
And you who have never been a slave, tell me who is better off, you or your brothers in Africa who sold your ancestor into slavery?
Martin Luther King had a dream. He put the wheels of that dream into motion. He focused on hope. Now years later, because millions or white men choose to judge a man, not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character, on January 20, 2009 the first black man will be sworn into the office of the highest position in America. Barack Obama the president of the United States of America.
"Little black boys and black girls have joined hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers", Yet YOU want to segregate them, and YOU want to divide them by skin color. You shame what King and Obama have achieved.
"When you change the way you look at things, the things that you look at change." ~ Dr. Wayne Dyer
I'm a romantic, yet still a realist.
I did not vote for Obama. My vote went to the Green party. Obama easily won my state and did not need my vote. The Green party did and stand more for what I believe in. So, I didn't vote for Obama because he is black. I did not vote Green because the candidates were black and Hispanic women either. I vote for issues, and Green clearly paralleled issues of interest to me.
Obama is very lucky the economy is in the toilet. Had Bush left office with a Clinton style surplus, McCain would be President today and Obama would not have received those white votes.
Obama owes his election to the seer incompetence of Bush, and the stupidity of the GOP who choose to run a lame like McCain instead of a sure winner like Collin Powell.
In fact, Obama owes his win to having a White mother more then anything. Had his father and mother both been black, white would not feel so comfortable with him and he would have lost to Hillary.
If you think for a second that Obama doesn't agree with his 20 year Pastor's POV, than you are deluded. Wright had Obama under his wing for many years. Obama had heard all those speeches face to face many times, and MORE. Being a great politician, perhaps the greatest America has ever known, he knows exactly what to say to put whites at ease which I'm sure he learned putting his white mother and Grandparents at ease with many of his early black associations.
Get real. Whites wish to "feel good" about their vote for Obama, but in reality, there are many selfish and racial motives behind Obama's historic win. The end of white racism is not one of them.
The only true way to solve a problem is to first, recognize it.
Hey, whites finally got OJ!! His sentencing is today. Where's the party?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Judging from his/her post, it looks likely that of_gold is also convinced that "black men" were the ones who brutally whipped slaves on American plantations and property, that these "black men" were the ones who linched their fellow "black men" because of their skin color, that these "black men" burnt churches where "blacks" were assembled, that these "black men" enacted Jim Crow, hosed their fellow "black men" and unleashed attack dogs on them et al. Yes, it's true that African war captives were traded by other Africans, but guess with whom? In "trade", it takes two to tango; anyone who thinks that only the party who trades/sells another person is morally-destitute, but not the other party who is buying, is severely intellectually-impaired. Guess who were the latter, even if one were to go by of_gold's mentality? In his/her neat little historical trivia, of_gold was incapacitated to mention that other slaves were actually kidnapped; guess who was party to that?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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If black men killed and brutalized each other for centuries in Africa, sold each other to European slave holders etc why do you not think they would do the same things in America? they are doing the same things to each other today within black communities.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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I'll be glad to examine your sources that state Africans were responsible for those things done to "blacks" in America that I laid out earlier.
Meanwhile, I can put your line of questioning back to you: if white people killed and brutalized not only each other for centuries in Europe, but peoples globally, sold each other to slave owners [matter of fact, slave comes from 'slav' - look it up, boy], etc, why would you not think they are more than capable of the above mentioned acts of savagery, and far worse? They are doing these same things today *globally*.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ You want to talk about people brutalizing each other, you should look no further than 1400s England, or Vlad (Dracula) the Impaler.
NEVER HOLD YOUR NOSE IN FRONT OF VLAD In 1459 on St. Bartholomew's Day, Vlad had 30,000 of the merchants and nobles of the Transylvanian city of Brasov to be impaled. In order to enjoy the entire experience (as we know that it's a full day's entertainment for him!) he commanded that his table be set up and that his boyars join him for a feast amongst the forest of impaled corpses. Whilst dining, Vlad noticed that one of his boyars was holding his nose in an effort to try and avoid some of the smell of blood and emptied bowels of the surrounding bodies. Vlad took it upon himself to impale the man higher than all the rest so that he might be above the stench.
BURNING OF UNFORTUNATE ONES Vlad got upset at the increase of cripples, beggars, poor and vagrants upon his land. He was very obsessive regarding that all worked and contributed equally. So he offered up a great feast in a great hall in Tirgoviste, saying that no one should go hungry in his land. The people who were made up of those unfortunate souls that were poor and crippled ate and drank late into the night when suddenly Vlad made an appearance. He asked them "What else do you desire? Do you want to be without cares and lacking nothing in this world?". The crowd were fooled by his question and rose up and answered that they did indeed. Vlad then ordered the hall boarded up and set on fire. No one escaped. Vlad explained his actions saying he did it "in order that they represent no further burden to other men so that no one will be poor in my realm".
Africans have never displayed any level of sadism as Europeans who made executions into town wide social events and went to great pains to keep the victim alive as long as possible, sometimes for days, while subjecting them to everything from disembowelment, to roasting them slowly over slow burning coal while the crowd cheered and got drunk from Ale purchased from the various event vendors.
The whole town generally pulled up their chairs in the town square to entertain themselves at these gruesome events. Africa has no parallel in it's entire history of this form of sick sadism.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Here's another trivia: It has been noted that before widespread use of African captives as slaves in the American colonies, white slaves branded as "indentured servants" were used. Imagine if African captives were not available, what would have happened to this apparatus? Yeap, you guessed it; whites slavery would have continued and become more widespread than it was then. So I guess in a way, those African captives actually saved the would-be white slaves. Now of course, as is the case with the blacks, white slaves would have eventually rose up to fight against the slave apparatus.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ The white servants proved to be too weak and unskilled to build the nation. So, they first attempted to enslave the Native Americans, but the Natives began to commit suicide rather than be enslaved, fell ill to the many nasty germs and diseases Europeans carried, or knowing the land better than the invaders, were able to escape and remain undetected. So, they tried Africa. By bringing the Africans far away from their Native Land, stripping them of their identities and constant torture and maiming, the Africans were made to use their strength, skills, and knowledge which the Europeans lacked, to build America.
For two centuries Indians and Africans remained enslaved together, and Native Americans were not exempted from the system until after the Revolution. Scholar C. Vann Woodward has concluded "If the black-red inter-breeding was anywhere as extensive as suggested by the testimony of ex-slaves, then the monoracial concept of slavery in America requires revision.
Though often unmentioned except in family circles, this biological legacy has been shared by such figures as Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King Jr., Langston Hughes, Lena Horne, Alice Walker, Jesse Jackson, Michael Jackson and L.L. Cool J. Today virtually every African American family tree boasts an Indian branch."
Even still, the Africans escaped and teamed up with Native Americans and nearly defeated the invading whites in military battles that lasted for decades.
The greatest flowering and most militant expression of the Black-Indian alliance took place in Florida. Enslaved Africans fled bondage in Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and the Carolinas to make a new life on the penninsula claimed by Spain.
Around the time of the American Revolution, Africans welcomed the Seminoles, a breakaway segment of the Creek nation, to the penninsula and taught them rice cultivation methods they had learned in Sierra Leone and Senegambia. On this basis the two peoples formed an agricultural and military alliance that defeated repeated invasions by U.S. slaveholding posses.
Finally, in 1819, to end a perceived threat by U.S. slaveholders, the United States purchased Florida. By this time African-run plantations stretched for fifty miles along Florida's fertile Appalachicola river valley, and included herds of cattle and horses. In Florida the Red and Black Seminoles fought the United States Army, Navy and Marines to a standstill for four decades, and some Seminoles never surrendered. In three Seminole Wars the United States armed forces lost more than 1500 U.S. soldiers, spent more than $40,000,000 and at times Seminole armed forces tied up half of the U.S. Army on the peninsula. "This, you may be assured," said U.S. General Thomas Jesup in l837, "is a Negro, not an Indian war." It was both. Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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One thing that made the prospect of 'Native American' or African slavery appealing, is its ability to leave the class nature of both the slave-driven economic apparatus and the economic motives of the slave owners obscure; for instance, the continuation of slavery could be prolonged and justified along socio-ethnic lines, and why it is supposed to be natural [usually with the assistance of appealing to reactionary theological thinking] in doing so.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Look The Explorer, I have never said anything to justify slavery. Meninarmer is the one who has divided everything into white and black. I am merely pointing out that good and bad cannot be distinguished by the color of a mans skin. Unfortunately Meninarmer has defined black as good and white as bad.
Meninarmer, I take it that you are proud of OJ because he slaughtered two white people and ashamed of Christopher Allen Darden because he is an accomplished attorney who succeeded on his own like most of us have to do.
I remember Darden saying in an interview after the trial that the black community turned against him because he got an education. Then he commented "what did OJ ever do for the black community?"
I would like to hear from you guys who hate white people so much just what the black leaders in Africa are doing for their own people? Jimmy Carter alone does more for those people.
quote: Here's another trivia: It has been noted that before widespread use of African captives as slaves in the American colonies, white slaves branded as "indentured servants" were used.
You mean there were white slaves? Kinda blows a hole in your "all white men are bad, stealing, and getting million dollar welfare checks platform" now doesn't it.
Grow up!
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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of_gold it is not a matter of justifying slavery or otherwise. Your post was filled with questionable, if not confused, ranting with little basis on fact; just too many holes in it, for any body with a level head not to take notice.
As for the history of white slaves, I've never made the case that there never was any. You've got me confused with somebody else.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: of_gold it is not a matter of justifying slavery or otherwise. Your post was filled with questionable, if not confused, ranting with little basis on fact; just too many holes in it, for any body with a level head not to take notice.
What part of my post was not factual?
quote:
As for the history of white slaves, I've never made the case that there never was any. You've got me confused with somebody else.
Your right about this. I didn't mean to say that you said there were not any white slaves. What I was meant to do was to show how meninarmer is wrong in making everything into a black and white issue. Its simply not.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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^^BTW, who are the "you guys who hate white people so much"?
And Jimmy Carter is just another member of the US ruling layer, who like others before and after him, decided to take on window-dressing "charity" causes after leaving office as a means to obscure what his administration became synonymous with. Is it possible that you have any idea what the Carter administration did to the working class in his own country, before casting him as some sort of a champion for ordinary folks overseas? How do you think he had no prayer for a second term?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ Of_Gold If you are laying in the grass having a picnic and a 3 foot long snake slides in your direction, what is your reaction? Do you stay there and pick it up? Have you ever played with snakes?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Originally posted by of_gold: Answer this. What was the skin color of those in Africa who sold your ancestors into slavery? What was the color of the man's skin who fought to free your ancestors from slavery? ANSWER: Black men sold your people into slavery and white men fought for their freedom. Yet, YOU choose to focus on the slave owners.
And you who have never been a slave, tell me who is better off, you or your brothers in Africa who sold your ancestor into slavery?Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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You and Meninarmer. I feel really disappointed in him especially. He is more raciest than Hammer.
Tell me what you believe Jimmy Carter did to the middle class. I see him as a good man.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: ^ Of_Gold If you are laying in the grass having a picnic and a 3 foot long snake slides in your direction, what is your reaction? Do you stay there and pick it up? Have you ever played with snakes?
You are a snake. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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of_gold, point out what in my post states that I "hate white people so much".
As for the Jimmy Carter question, does your lack of answer suggest that you don't know the answer?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: ^ Of_Gold If you are laying in the grass having a picnic and a 3 foot long snake slides in your direction, what is your reaction? Do you stay there and pick it up? Have you ever played with snakes?
You are a snake.
So, you are afraid of snakes. Sharks too? How about, hungry Lions, Tigers, and Panthers?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: of_gold, point out what in my post states that I "hate white people so much".
As for the Jimmy Carter question, does your lack of answer suggest that you don't know the answer?
It wasn't your post, it was meninarmer.
I was not giving you an answer about Jimmy Carter. I was asking you a question. I just failed to use a question mark.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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I guess I must be black then because according to your statement I surely can't be white. You just continue to show your ignorance meninarmer. 
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