posted
QUOTE]Originally posted by huy60: @zarahan-
1/ I'm sorry but you did not address my post at all. You simply avoided the points I raised.
“The Egyptian language – which has been preserved on the monuments of the oldest time, as well as in the late-Christian manuscripts of the Copts, the successors of the people of the Pharaohs – in no way shows any trace of a derivation and descent from the African families of speech [...] the primitive roots and the essential elements of the Egyptian grammar point to such an intimate connection with the Indo-Germanic and Semitic languages”
“The first view of the Ethiopian monuments at once carries the conviction, that we can recognise in them no special quality beyond the rudest conception and the most imperfect execution of a style of art originally Egyptian. The most clumsy imitation of Egyptian attainments in all that relates to science and the arts, appears as the acme of the intellectual progress and the artistic development in Ethiopia.”
2/ Your text does not definitely confirm the afrocentric story. I personally think that ancient egyptians simply developed tropically adapted traits due to adaptation. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X09001176 "The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated."
3/ "Cold adaptation was to bring about several physical changes over time from the initial Out of Africa migrations to Europe." That does not prove OoA's theory is true. In fact, OoA has been completely destroyed and discredited, and everyone is already aware of the flaws with OoA you know.
4/ "Morphological micro-evolution of Nubian Populations from, A-Group to Christian Epochs: gene flow, not local adaptation." It seems very interesting. Can someone give me the link to that study ?
^^^nobody is going to address all of these at one time, you have to make separate threads for language, monuments, morphology.
On mouments, the opinion on Ethiopians style copies is irrelevant the afrocetrics point to the Nubian A-Group's Qustul Incense burner as evidence of a continuum. Qustul is in Sudan not Ethiopia. Ethiopia is not claimed as a predecessor. Language is addressed by Theophile obenga. The in situ hypothesis does not prove that the process occured on non-Africans. OOA is still the mainstream position of anthropolgists. If you want relpies about it, same things a separate thread on multi regional hypothesis not with newspaper articles about it. -with links to primary studies mentioned in those articles and excerpt quotes.
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Here is the quote, a translation of Manilius that some people didn't like:
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. – Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
^^^ regardless if some people didn't like the wording, in the so called "afrocentric" position as expressed by alTakruri , he does not debunk the order of skin complexion dark to light as per these ethniticies and Djehuti screaming "it was taken out of context" doesn't change that >It's the same order , much ado about nothing
this particular translation says Ethiopians are the darkest, next Indians, next Egyptians
and that is exactly what alTakruri said. So there was no "debunk" on the bottom line order he just didn't like the translation of particular words.
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ You know that Sudan IS "Ethiopia" right? You know that the modern nation called "Ethiopia" formally changed its name from Abyssinia?
This happened only a couple of generations ago Dumb Dumb. LOL
that is correct but Meroe (800 BC – c. AD 350) is not considered by some afrocentrics as predecessor to Egypt. Qustul of 3300 BC is , and Qustul is located in what is now called Sudan
by the way if you want to read huy60's outdated 1881 source on Egyptian origins for a good laugh:
A history of Egypt under the Pharaohs: derived entirely from the monuments ... By Heinrich Karl Brugsch
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: in the so called "afrocentric" position as expressed by alTakruri
I would thank you to post links to my actual contributions rather than you dishonestly presume to speak in my name, something you are woefully unqualified to do, and go on to misinterpret my original and independent analyses of Egyptology, African Studies, Classics, etc., as regurgitant of Afrocentrism. I am not a subscriber to Afrocentrism in any shape, form, or fashion whatsoever.
Refrain from sullying my name by associating it with the blatant ethnocentric bias system known as Afrocentricism.
Intellectual studies of peoples and cultures need to be presented in as nearly objective findings as possible not as ammunition for pro-ethnic polemics by any race, nationality, or colour.
We lose much understanding of relevant reality when social sciences are employed only as a prop for historical fantasy merchants, race supremists, and the like.
And no I am not returning as a regular poster This was an instance where I simply could not tolerate the mangling of my orientation. No, it's not the only case and yes others have also misused my name or misinterpreted my findings since I left but this example is too extreme to leave unanswered.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
alTakruri - As a self-defined Afrocentric, I am wounded and hurt by your scurrilous comments.
Your shame, is that you don't even realize that you have Allowed the Albino mans propaganda to usurp your own thinking process.
A centric is one who places the prefix of the centrism - in this case Africa - as the center or source of the discipline - in this case Anthropology.
Thus, doesn't the finding that modern man evolved in Africa. And that OOA peoples were originally Africans, make all adherents to that science - by definition - Afrocentrics?
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: alTakruri - As a self-defined Afrocentric, I am wounded and hurt by your scurrilous comments.
Your shame, is that you don't even realize that you have Allowed the Albino mans propaganda to usurp your own thinking process.
A centric is one who places the prefix of the centrism - in this case Africa - as the center or source of the discipline - in this case Anthropology.
Thus, doesn't the finding that modern man evolved in Africa. And that OOA peoples were originally Africans, make all adherents to that science - by definition - Afrocentrics?
Mike you are not afrocentric. You are properly a Black Euroecentric as outlined by Samuels. The idea that mankind originated in Africa is an albino lie. They are trying to cover up the fact that the Black man originated in Europe and fled to Africa after white interlopers invaded.
posted
^It's just crazy enough to work Lioness, did you think of it yourself??? When the others start complaining about Lioness lies and nonsense, what should I cite as your proof?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by huy60: Can you try to debunk each of these quotes?
From “Egypt Under the Pharaohs: A History Derived Entirely from the Monuments – Part One” (Heinrich Brugsch Bey)
quote:“The form of the skull – so at least the elder school teaches – as well as the proportions of the several parts of the body, as these have been determined from examining a great number of mummies, are held to indicate a connection with the Caucasian family of mankind.” (p. 8)
“The Egyptian language – which has been preserved on the monuments of the oldest time, as well as in the late-Christian manuscripts of the Copts, the successors of the people of the Pharaohs – in no way shows any trace of a derivation and descent from the African families of speech [...] the primitive roots and the essential elements of the Egyptian grammar point to such an intimate connection with the Indo-Germanic and Semitic languages” (p. 9)
“The first view of the Ethiopian monuments at once carries the conviction, that we can recognise in them no special quality beyond the rudest conception and the most imperfect execution of a style of art originally Egyptian. The most clumsy imitation of Egyptian attainments in all that relates to science and the arts, appears as the acme of the intellectual progress and the artistic development in Ethiopia.” (p. 11)
"The great mixture of tribes in their many branches [...] have on the monuments the common name of Nahasu. In the coloured representations they appear of a black or dark-brown complexion, with unmistakable Negro features, and with a thoroughly primitive and simple dress." (p. 12)
"On a tract of such an enormous extent there lived an almost countless number of tribes, whose original stock was that of a pure ancient African people, whom we meet with in those countries at the present day, the black or brown negro races called Nahasi on the monuments." (p. 330)
And then, ("The Ancient Egypt "Race" Issue") :
quote:Egyptians had a "medium tone"
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. – Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
Here the term Ethiopians (= Greek "burnt face", denoting very dark skin) refers to Africans inhabiting latitudes south of Egypt (Snowden, 1989). The term "Ethiopian," in that it was a broad category encompassing diverse ethnic groups of tropical Africa, was similar to a modern-day "racial" designation and roughly corresponded to what early anthropologists would have called "Negro." Yet classical writers, as exemplified by Manilius' quote above, clearly differentiated the Egyptians from "Ethiopians." Philostratus, for example, noted that a people living near the Nubian border were lighter than Ethiopians, and that Egyptians were lighter still.
Egyptians resembled Northern Indians
There are cases of Greco-Roman authors likening Egyptians' appearance to that of northern Indians, who generally do not look like black Africans. According to Arrian (Indica 6.9):
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording:
As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Arrian and Strabo concur that the Egyptians resembled northern Indians – who are usually straight-haired and occasionally as light-skinned as southern Europeans – rather than the dark Dravidian types of southern India. Furthermore, although Arrian and Strabo differentiate Ethiopians from South Indians in terms of facial form and hair texture, they cite no such differences between the Egyptians and northern Indians.
Afrocentric misreadings of classical texts
The meaning of melas and melanochroes
In their efforts to paint the ancient Egyptians "black," Afrocentrists rely heavily on misreadings of ancient Greek and Roman literature – many of which stem from a severe misunderstanding of the historical use of color terms. In many ages and many cultures, descriptions of human complexion as "white," "brown" or "black" would correspond in modern usage to "fair," "tan" or "swarthy." According to the anthropologist Peter Frost (*):
This older, more relative sense has been noted in other culture areas. The Japanese once used the terms shiroi (white) and kuroi (black) to describe their skin and its gradations of color. The Ibos of Nigeria employed ocha (white) and ojii (black) in the same way, so that nwoko ocha (white man) simply meant an Ibo with a lighter complexion. In French Canada, the older generation still refers to a swarthy Canadien as noir. Vestiges of this older usage persist in family names. Mr. White, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Black were individuals within the normal color spectrum of English people. Ditto for Leblanc, Lebrun, and Lenoir among the French or Weiss and Schwartz among the Germans.
In the same vein, the Greek words melas and leukos when applied to skin color were usually equivalent to "swarthy" and "fair" rather than the racial terms "black" or "white" as Afrocentrists would prefer (see definition of melas in the online LSJ lexicon). There are numerous examples of this usage in Greek literature – one unequivocal example describes an aged Odysseus magically regaining his youth (Homer Odyssey 16.172-176):
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
In describing the skin tone of Odysseus, Homer used the word melanchroiês – a form of the same word that other Greeks sometimes chose to describe Egyptians, and one that is the source of much Afrocentric misunderstanding. If taken literally, the word would mean "black-skinned"; however, it is clear from the context that Homer means "of swarthy complexion" rather than racially "black," and intends to describe Odysseus regaining his youthful color. Otherwise we would have to assume that during the process of rejuvenation Odysseus transformed into a black African! This despite the numerous ancient artistic portrayals of Odysseus as Greek-looking and certainly not "black" in any modern racial sense.
Likewise, when the ancient writers described Egyptians as melas or melanchroes, they almost surely meant "dark-complected" rather than literally "black." Any ambiguity in such descriptions can be resolved by noting that other classical writers such as Manilius specifically identified the Egyptians as medium in complexion rather than "black," and that the Egyptians portrayed themselves as lighter and finer-featured than their African neighbors to the south.
The Herodotus quote
Perhaps the most frequently cited Greek quote among Afrocentrists is that of Herodotus (Histories 2.104.2) describing Egyptians as well as Colchians of the Caucasus as "dark-skinned and woolly-haired." That the Egyptians were dark relative to Greeks is not surprising, considering that the same is true today. But Herodotus' description of Egyptian hair would, at first glance, appear to conflict with the physical evidence left by the Egyptians themselves – numerous mummies with hair still attached to the skulls showing more straight, wavy, or lightly curled hair types than "woolly." The only way to make the evidence consistent is to assume Herodotus spoke in a relative rather than absolute sense. That is, Egyptian hair was on average curlier than Greek hair and the tightly-curled ("woolly") hair type was found more often in Egyptians than in Greeks – as is true today. There is no reason to assume on the basis of Herodotus' words that all or even most Egyptians had "woolly" hair, nor that such hair found in Egyptians was as "woolly" as that of tropical Africans. Indeed, Herodotus himself mentions only "Ethiopians" – not Egyptians – as having the "woolliest hair of all men" (Herodotus Histories 7.70.1). Moreover, Herodotus' explanation that being melanchroes or oulotriches "indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too" suggests that these adjectives did not apply exclusively to any one "race" of people.
An analogous example of a stereotype based on relative comparison comes from the medieval Arab scholar Ibn Butlan, who noted the Greeks as having "straight blond hair" and "blue eyes." Does this mean that all medieval Greeks had a Nordic appearance? Certainly not: it merely suggests that the blondhaired, blue-eyed type is more common among Greeks than Arabs and stood out more as a salient characteristic worthy of mention. The Arabs, like the Greeks, noted characteristics that were unusual in their own population and used these traits to typify the foreigners.
Interestingly, Herodotus mentions the Colchians as another group having "dark skin and woolly hair." Considering that the Colchians inhabited what is roughly modern-day Georgia in the Caucasus, it would seem that the vast majority of Colchians were most likely – and quite literally – Caucasian. Of course Afrocentric diehards might claim that Colchians too were black Africans, but such a theory runs into trouble when one considers the observations of Hippocrates, who wrote that the Colchians in Phasis "are large and corpulent in body. Neither joint nor vein is evident. They have a yellow flesh, as if victims of jaundice" (Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places 15). Nothing in Hippocrates' description suggests that Colchians look anything like sub-Saharan Africans and this further weakens the Afrocentric argument that Egyptians and Colchians must have looked like "blacks" on the basis of Herodotus' words.
Other ancient quotes cited by Afrocentrists
There are certain other quotes that some Afro-Egyptocentrists interpret in such a way as to conflict with other descriptions such as the ones at the top of this page. The interpretations have similar failings as the Herodotus quote. That is, (1) misconstruing melas and its variants as meaning racially "black"; (2) assuming certain traits mentioned in quotes are found in all or even most of the Egyptian population; and (3) assuming that when Egyptians do possess such traits, they are expressed nearly as strongly as in tropical Africans to the south. Using similar faulty methods, Afrocentrists might as well say Jews in the Middle Ages were "black" because Joseph ben Nathan in the 13th century quoted his father as saying "we Jews come from a pure, white source, and so our faces are black." Of course to do this would be to ignore the fact that in medieval Europe as in ancient Greece, black often meant "swarthy." Likewise, Afrocentrists could insist that 12th-century Turks were "black" on the basis of their being exaggerated as "blacker than pitch or ink" in the epic Chanson d'Aspremont. But we know on the basis of physical remains and ample pictorial evidence that neither the Jews nor Turks were actually "black" in medieval times.
Yep - it is very clear what Greeks meant by what they termed melanchroes Egyptians and Colchians.
Portrayal of Egyptians on a Greek vase
Nuff said.
“there are three tribes of Ethiopians: Hesperians, Garamantes and Indians” Isidore of Seville 6th century
(See IX ii 128.in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, Stephen A. Barney, 2006, p. 199.
You lose.
1886 – “The fundamental character of the Egyptians in respect of physical type, language and tone of thought, is Negritic. The Egyptians were not negroes, but they bore resemblance to the negro WHICH IS INDISPUTABLE.” Found in - Ancient Egypt by George Rawlinson and Arthur Gilman, London, 1886, p. 24.
“The Egyptians, though healthy, large and robust were clumsy in their forms and course in their features. Like other African tribes they were woolly haired, flat-nosed and thick lipped, and if not absolutely black were very near it in color. From the Publication “ Specimens of Ancient Sculpture Society of Dilettanti Vol 1,
Checkmate!
On the Kahanim of Khaibar
“At the end of eight days we found a mountain [Khaibar] which appeared to be ten or twelve miles in circumference, in which mountain there dwell four or five thousand Jews, who go naked or six spans, and have a feminine voice, and ARE MORE BLACK THAN ANY OTHER COLOUR. They live entirely upon the flesh of sheep, and eat nothing else. They are circumcised and confess that they are Jews; and if they can get a Moor into their hands, they skin him alive.” pp. 14-15 (1997) The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna from 1502 to 1508 translated from the original Italian by John Winter Jones.
“Know that the land of Egypt when the Mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided amongst themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion.
The one part was made up of men about the court and public affairs, all Greek, from among the soldiers of Constantinople, the seat of government of Rum; their views as well as their religion, were all of them Melkite; and their number was above 300 000, all Greeks.
The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one COULD NOT DISTINGUISH QIBT FROM ABYSINIAN< NUBIAN OR ISRAELITE; and they were all Jacobites." From Al Maqrizi family from Baalbek, "History of the Copts and of their Church.” 14th century
Don't tell us the ancients couldn't distinguish Greeks and other fairskinned Mediterraneans from blacks.
Your case is closed. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dana - Few have bothered to post here, because the premiss was just Toooo Stupid. The man was obviously a degenerate idiot and liar.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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1886 – “The fundamental character of the Egyptians in respect of physical type, language and tone of thought, is Negritic. The Egyptians were not negroes, but they bore resemblance to the negro WHICH IS INDISPUTABLE.” --- Ancient Egypt by George Rawlinson and Arthur Gilman, London, 1886, p. 24.
Typical 19th century white academic mentality-- the Egyptians looked 'negro' but they were still Caucasians because they built advanced civilization! LMAOPosts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^^His sources are from the 1800's for christ sake, I mean really..LMAO I swear these trolls today are unoriginal.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ Yes, but even then, their own 19th century sources betray them!! The physical appearance of the Egyptians was never an issue-- they looked BLACK.
The issue was denying their African identity and relation to other black Africans. I mean all the sources agree that Egyptians 'resembled negroes' or were of the 'Abyssinian type'. LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: The ancient Egyptians were not black or white
the fact they were not human they were statues of chocolates that came to life thanks to geppetto
and i think most Neanderdulls would accept that since its anything but "Negro" for them.lol!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: huy60,
Good sources you have posted.
I would point out though all the sources from Greco-Roman literature are irrelvant as they are eye witness accounts of Egypt only going back to about the mid-5th century BC (Herodotus). The exception is a passage we find preserved in Manetho describing Nitocris of an early dynasty. She is described as fair skinned and blonde.
I believe the early ruling dynasties of Egypt were Nordid, based on the fact we contain a lot of artistic and literary descriptions of the royalty as fair skinned, and blonde or red haired.
Can I ask when did these "Nordids" reach the caves of the Carpathians, since they obviously hadn't made it to the Mediterranean in the time of African pharaohs?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
A clear case of "lying eyes" or "visual cognitive dissonance". Walks like duck quacks like a duck--but it can't be a duck. LOL.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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What is all this obsession with ruling dynasties. The British royal family all descend from "ruling dynasties" but they are as dumb and hollow as concrete bricks--and quite physically very unappealing too.
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The significant personages during Egyptian times were the engineers, the craftsmen, the physicians, the architects, the applied mathematicians, etc.
One can explain though the European obsession with the so-called "ruling dynasties" of Egypt.The European themselves were absolutely smitten by their "royal families" who in reality were not much more than head-chopping fornicators. The French Revolution showed up the lies of royalty. But the Brits were continuing with this laughable institution at the time these amateur so-called Egyptologists flocked over to Egypt to concoct soul-mates with Egypt's pharaohs. Nothing special about them except they were buried in huge tombs.
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“The Egyptian language – which has been preserved on the monuments of the oldest time, as well as in the late-Christian manuscripts of the Copts, the successors of the people of the Pharaohs – in no way shows any trace of a derivation and descent from the African families of speech [...] the primitive roots and the essential elements of the Egyptian grammar point to such an intimate connection with the Indo-Germanic and Semitic languages” (p. 9)
“The first view of the Ethiopian monuments at once carries the conviction, that we can recognise in them no special quality beyond the rudest conception and the most imperfect execution of a style of art originally Egyptian. The most clumsy imitation of Egyptian attainments in all that relates to science and the arts, appears as the acme of the intellectual progress and the artistic development in Ethiopia.” (p. 11)
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Why should we such non-sense. Egyptian today is not classified as part of the Indo-European language its part of the Afrosan family.
your source is from the 1800's, step your game up.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: huy60,
Good sources you have posted.
I would point out though all the sources from Greco-Roman literature are irrelvant as they are eye witness accounts of Egypt only going back to about the mid-5th century BC (Herodotus). The exception is a passage we find preserved in Manetho describing Nitocris of an early dynasty. She is described as fair skinned and blonde.
I believe the early ruling dynasties of Egypt were Nordid, based on the fact we contain a lot of artistic and literary descriptions of the royalty as fair skinned, and blonde or red haired.
Can I ask when did these "Nordids" reach the caves of the Carpathians, since they obviously hadn't made it to the Mediterranean in the time of African pharaohs?
Afrocentric Ivan Sertima forced to admit Nordids were in North Africa from the 4th millenium BC -
''The Libyans, however were originally caucasian... their presence has been documentated since the first dynasty in Egypt, circa 3100 B.C. Dr. Rosalie David, an Egyptologist, describes them as 'people with distinctive red or blonde hair and blue eyes... In Egyptian, Tama means people and created. Hu is white, light ivory. Tamahu are the created white people.'' (Sertima, 1985: 149).
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Why should we such non-sense. Egyptian today is not classified as part of the Indo-European language its part of the Afrosan family.
your source is from the 1800's, step your game up.
I skimmed the pages. It's amusing, just last week we had that impostor "Egyptian85" drug addict, now this alcoholic twit.
It's true, it all has been debunked.
Why Anglo Piss Pot is still repeating the same nonsense is also beyond me. This includes L'ass too. Bunch of weirdos!
Germanic is derived from indo-European phylum. Not from the Afroasian lingustic branch. Egypt is part of the Afriasian phylum.
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Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions
Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003
Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2003.
Population continuity or population change: Formation of the ancient Egyptian state
Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 132, Issue 4, pages 501–509, April 2007
The origins of the ancient Egyptian state and its formation have received much attention through analysis of mortuary contexts, skeletal material, and trade. Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests. The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods studied. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.
Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range.
Here is a link to a discussion with someone slightly smarter than Anglo Piss Pot. Yet, he had to come to the conclusion that ancient Egyptians were indigious Africans who came from the Sahara and Sahel up the Nile.
''One of the major racial stocks, indigenous to Western Sub-Sahara Africa. Negroids are characterized by prognathism, chamaerrhiny (nasal index of 51+), dark brown to black skin and wooly black hair.''
The ancient egyptians were not Negroid, but Caucasoids, they weren't wooly haired, prognathic or wide nosed.
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Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 (1952) 469–514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 (1958) 79–123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 (1986) 313–324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 (2006) 374–384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9–4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains.
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)
Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
By The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Wadi Kubbaniya (ca. 17,000–15,000 B.C.)
Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths.
In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers. Charred remains of plants that the inhabitants consumed, especially tubers, have also been found.
It appears from the zoological and botanical remains at the various sites in this wadi that the two environmental zones were exploited at different times. We know that the dune sites were occupied when the Nile River flooded the wadi because large numbers of fish and migratory bird bones were found at this location. When the water receded, people then moved down onto the silt left behind on the wadi floor and the floodplain, probably following large animals that looked for water there in the dry season. Paleolithic peoples lived at Wadi Kubbaniya for about 2,000 years, exploiting the different environments as the seasons changed. Other ancient camps have been discovered along the Nile from Sudan to the Mediterranean, yielding similar tools and food remains. These sites demonstrate that the early inhabitants of the Nile valley and its nearby deserts had learned how to exploit local environments, developing economic strategies that were maintained in later cultural traditions of pharaonic Egypt.
Diana Craig Patch
Department of Egyptian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Laura Anne Tedesco
Department of Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art ons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range.
Nick A. Drakea,1, Roger M. Blenchb, Simon J. Armitagec, Charlie S. Bristowd, and Kevin H. Whitee
a Department of Geography, King’s College London, Strand, London WC2R 2LS, United Kingdom; b Kay Williamson Educational Foundation, 8 Guest Road, Cambridge CB1 2AL, United Kingdom; c Department of Geography, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham, Surrey TW20 0EX, United Kingdom; dSchool of Earth Sciences, Birkbeck College, University of London, Malet Street, London WC1E 7HX, United Kingdom; and eDepartment of Geography, University of Reading, Whiteknights, Reading RG6 6AB, United Kingdom
Edited by Ofer Bar-Yosef, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, and approved November 22, 2010 (received for review August 23, 2010)
Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert
Evidence increasingly suggests that sub-Saharan Africa is at the center of human evolution and understanding routes of dispersal “out of Africa” is thus becoming increasingly important. The Sahara Desert is considered by many to be an obstacle to these dispersals and a Nile corridor route has been proposed to cross it. Here we provide evidence that the Sahara was not an effective barrier and indicate how both animals and humans populated it during past humid phases. Analysis of the zoogeography of the Sahara shows that more animals crossed via this route than used the Nile corridor. Furthermore, many of these species are aquatic. This dis- persal was possible because during the Holocene humid period the region contained a series of linked lakes, rivers, and inland deltas comprising a large interlinked waterway, channeling water and an- imals into and across the Sahara, thus facilitating these dispersals. This system was last active in the early Holocene when many spe- cies appear to have occupied the entire Sahara. However, species that require deep water did not reach northern regions because of weak hydrological connections. Human dispersals were influenced by this distribution; Nilo-Saharan speakers hunting aquatic fauna with barbed bone points occupied the southern Sahara, while peo- ple hunting Savannah fauna with the bow and arrow spread south- ward. The dating of lacustrine sediments show that the “green Sahara” also existed during the last interglacial (∼125 ka) and pro- vided green corridors that could have formed dispersal routes at a likely time for the migration of modern humans out of Africa.
posted
If you say so bro, but last I checked, As of this very moment Egyptian was/is grouped as apart of Afrosan Family not Indo-European by all mainstream linguists and researchers.
So who really is winning, your outdated 1800's nonsense or us backed up by modern day, this very moment research, that finds the origin of Egyptian as a language in Eastern Africa.
and it gets worse bro so So if you think you won bro, have at it hoss.
quote:Originally posted by huy60: "Why should we such non-sense."
Ok. You lose, I win. Next step.
In one of my previous post, I wrote :
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: If you say so bro, but last I checked Egyptian was grouped as apart of Afrosan Family not Indo-European by all mainstream linguists and researchers.
So if you think you won bro, have at it hoss.
quote:Originally posted by huy60: "Why should we such non-sense."
Ok. You lose, I win. Next step.
In one of my previous post, I wrote :
He sadly thinks he made a good point too?lol
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posted
Oh and when you decide to stap your game up Huy, come holler at me, Ill be glad to slap your ass around over this. And It gets worse dude, the religion, the customs, oh and the art...
Just tell me when your ready, I noticed you comletly avoided my images of Greek/Non Egyptian images of Egyptians..Its ok, You're like Cassite a Paper Tiger
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh and when you decide to stap your game up Huy, come holler at me, Ill be glad to slap your ass around over this. And It gets worse dude, the religion, the customs, oh and the art...
Just tell me when your ready, I noticed you comletly avoided my images of Greek/Non Egyptian images of Egyptians..Its ok, You're like Cassite a Paper Tiger
The alcoholic will come to senses when the alcohol cleared.
quote:
"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline."
Barry Kemp. (2006) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54
quote:
Science. 2006 Aug 11;313(5788):803-7. Epub 2006 Jul 20.
Climate-controlled Holocene occupation in the Sahara: motor of Africa's evolution.
Kuper R, Kröpelin S.
Source
Collaborative Research Center 389 (ACACIA), University of Cologne, Institute of Prehistoric Archaeology, Africa Research Unit, Jennerstrasse 8, 50823 Köln, Germany.
Abstract
Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E.
Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilisation along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.
quote:
The male cranium above is from Wadi al-Halfa on the Sudan-Egypt border. Dating from the Mesolithic-Holocene period, it is typical of crania in Sudan and surrounding regions from that time frame. More recent Nubian crania from the Christian period have more rounded skulls without the sloping frontal bone. However, the vertical zygomatic arch, prominent glabella, sagittal plateau, and occipital bun (less pronounced) are retained. The cranium above has pronounced facial prognathism, but moderate dental protrusion. The chin is vertical with a angular mandible and very squat ramus. (Image from David Lee Greene and George Armelagos. The Wadi Halfa mesolithic population. (Amherst: University of Massachusetts, 1972)
quote:
l-Barga reveals one of the most important necropoleis of the early Holocene in Africa.
This site was discovered in 2001 during a survey concentrating on the zones bordering the alluvial plain. The name el-Barga is borrowed from a nearby mountain. The site is located on an elevation formed by an outcrop of bedrock (Nubian sandstone) less than 15 km from the Nile, as the crow flies. It includes a settlement area dated to circa 7500 B.C. and cemeteries belonging to two distinct periods.
The habitation is a circular hut slightly less than five metres in diameter, its maximum depth exceeding 50 centimetres. This semi-subterranean structure contained a wealth of artefacts resulting from the site’s occupation (ceramics, grinding tools, flint objects, ostrich eggshell beads, a mother-of-pearl pendant, bone tools, faunal remains, shells). The abundance of artefacts discovered suggests a marked inclination towards a sedentary lifestyle, even though certain activities (fishing and hunting) necessitate seasonal migration.
North of this habitation, about forty burials were dated to the Epipalaeolithic (7700-7000 B.C.) and generally do not contain any furnishings. On the other hand, the Neolithic cemetery (6000-5500 B.C.) located further south comprises about a hundred burials often containing artefacts (adornment, ceramics, flint or bone objects).
For further information, read the publications by M. Honegger.
PLoS One. 2008 Aug 14;3(8):e2995.
Lakeside cemeteries in the Sahara: [5000 years of holocene population and environmental change.
Sereno PC et al.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Approximately two hundred human burials were discovered on the edge of a paleolake in Niger that provide a uniquely preserved record of human occupation in the Sahara during the Holocene ( approximately 8000 B.C.E. to the present). Called Gobero, this suite of closely spaced sites chronicles the rapid pace of biosocial change in the southern Sahara in response to severe climatic fluctuation.
METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS:
Two main occupational phases are identified that correspond with humid intervals in the early and mid-Holocene, based on 78 direct AMS radiocarbon dates on human remains, fauna and artifacts, as well as 9 OSL dates on paleodune sand. The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb. Their hyperflexed burials compose the earliest cemetery in the Sahara dating to approximately 7500 B.C.E. These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return approximately 4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE:
The principal significance of Gobero lies in its extraordinary human, faunal, and archaeological record, from which we conclude the following: The early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700-6200 B.C.E.) were largely sedentary hunter-fisher-gatherers with lakeside funerary sites that include the earliest recorded cemetery in the Sahara.Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.Gobero was abandoned during a period of severe aridification possibly as long as one millennium (6200-5200 B.C.E). More gracile humans arrived in the mid-Holocene (5200-2500 B.C.E.) employing a diversified subsistence economy based on clams, fish, and savanna vertebrates as well as some cattle husbandry.Population replacement after a harsh arid hiatus is the most likely explanation for the occupational sequence at Gobero.We are just beginning to understand the anatomical and cultural diversity that existed within the Sahara during the Holocene.
posted
Regarding the study cited in the first chart posted by Troll patrol, Mathilda37 has a good post on it.
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quote:Originally posted by huy60: Regarding the study cited in the first chart posted by Troll patrol, Mathilda37 has a good post on it.
lol At some rubbish blog by some old Brithish woman. LMAO!
quote:Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature.
Raxter MH, Ruff CB,
Abstract
Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 (1952) 469-514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 (1958) 79-123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 (1986) 313-324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 (2006) 374-384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9-4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains.
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posted
The funny part Huy is you have yet to adress anyones claims, all you do is post links to wikipedia and then have the gall to demand someone debate your outdated sources. I mean really at this point you are a joke.
You wonder why people are ignoring you..lmao.
I really do miss the Trolls that had some bite, at least they tried. These dumbass trolls nowdays are just "bark" like Cassiteredes and Huy, its pathetic.
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Thanks, I already replied to that. They may developed tropical traits due to adaptation. (I will read the rest later)
"I noticed you comletly avoided my images of Greek/Non Egyptian images of Egyptians"
Because you cite no evidence, no reference, no source of what you previously said about the picture : "Portrayal of Egyptians on a Greek vase".
Regarding the two other quotes, again, I wonder if these paragraphs speak in an absolute, or a relative sense. Again, I cite Herodotus : "Indeed, Herodotus himself mentions only "Ethiopians" – not Egyptians – as having the "woolliest hair of all men" (Herodotus Histories 7.70.1)."
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"In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods (Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-Saharan Africans as African “parents” and Southwest Asians as Caucasoid parents. Because very similar results are obtained using North Africans as Caucasoid parents, it is difficult to tell whether Southwest Asians or North Africans contributed the Caucasoid genes. Perhaps both did. Using the simple Fst approach discussed in chapter 1 for calculating admixtures, average gene frequencies from Nilotic speakers as prototypes of African ancestors, as well as gene frequencies of North Africans averaged for the five groups of table 3.6.1 as Caucasoid ancestors, one obtains 53% of African (and 47% Caucasoid) contribution for Tigre, 57% for Amhara, 56% for Cushitic."
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans; however, 21% of the Afro-Caribbeans are placed in a cluster with the West Eurasians (presumably reflecting genetic exchange with Europeans)."
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quote:Originally posted by huy60: "Stature estimation;anatomical method;regression formulae; Egyptians "
Thanks, I already replied to that. They may developed tropical traits due to adaptation. (I will read the rest later)
"I noticed you comletly avoided my images of Greek/Non Egyptian images of Egyptians"
Because you cite no evidence, no reference, no source of what you previously said about the picture : "Portrayal of Egyptians on a Greek vase".
Regarding the two other quotes, again, I wonder if these paragraphs speak in an absolute, or a relative sense. Again, I cite Herodotus : "Indeed, Herodotus himself mentions only "Ethiopians" – not Egyptians – as having the "woolliest hair of all men" (Herodotus Histories 7.70.1)."
No you dumbass, there is more than just one ethnic group in Africa. As the studies confirm. So therefore I don't even take time to mention the Greek statues! lol
For one to have tropical body portions one needs to come from a tropical environment. Limbs take thousands of years to adapt to cold or warm temperatures. There is one exception which is bias sex-base. During the time of the Holocene and Neolithic people from Eurasia came only recently from a extreme cold environment. Hence making them cold adapted. Till this day and time.
Europeans and Eurasians are cold adapted, this is no secret the info is out there.
All you write is rubbish, with little understanding of the sciences we address.
Some of the most important evidence of early man in Nubia was discovered recently by an expedition of the Royal Ontario Museum, Toronto, under the direction of Dr. Kryzstof Grzymski, on the east bank of the Nile, about 70 miles (116 km) south of Dongola, Sudan. During the early 1990's, this team discovered several sites containing hundreds of Paleolithic hand axes. At one site, however, the team identified an apparent stone tool workshop, where thousands of sandstone hand axes and flakes lay on the ground around a row of large stones set in a line, suggesting the remains of a shelter. This seems to be the earliest "habitation" site yet discovered in the Nile Valley and may be up to 70,000 years old.
What the Nubian environment was like throughout these distant times, we cannot know with certainty, but it must have changed many times. For many thousands of years it was probably far different than what it is today. Between about 50,000 to 25,000 years ago, the hand axe gradually disappeared and was replaced with numerous distinctive chipped stone industries that varied from region to region, suggesting the presence in Nubia of many different peoples or tribal groups dwelling in close proximity to each other. When we first encounter skeletal remains in Nubia, they are those of modern man: homo sapiens*.
Nubia's Oldest Battle?
From about 25,000 to 8,000 years ago, the environment gradually evolved to its present state. From this phase several very early settlement sites have been identified at the Second Cataract, near the Egypt-Sudan border. These appear to have been used seasonally by people leading a semi-nomadic existence. The people hunted, fished, and ground wild grain. The first cemeteries also appear, suggesting that people may have been living at least partly sedentary lives. One cemetery site at Jebel Sahaba, near Wadi Halfa, Sudan, contained a number of bodies that had suffered violent deaths and were buried in a mass grave. This suggests that people, even 10,000 years ago, had begun to compete with each other for resources and were willing to kill each other to control them.
Busharia reveals the precocious appearance of pottery on the African continent around the 9th millennium B.C.
The site of Busharia is located near the desert, at the edge of the alluvial plain and near an old Nile channel. It reveals the remains of human occupation at the onset of the Holocene. The settlement is rather eroded, only a few artefacts, ostrich egg fragments and extremely old ceramic sherds remain. These sherds date to circa 8200 B.C. The ceramic assemblage is homogenous, which suggests the existence of a single occupation phase. The decorations and the use of the return technique, common in the central Sahara around the 6th millennium B.C., are unique in this Nubian context for such an early period.
Remains discovered on site suggest the existence of a semi-sedentary population living from hunting, fishing, and the gathering of wild plants. A trial trench and a small-scale excavation were conducted on this Mesolithic site; however, it is impossible to obtain at present a better understanding of the context related to the first ceramics in the region. As this site is located near cultivated zones, it is thus threatened with short-term destruction.
Three scale models—of the Mesolithic hut of el-Barga ( 7500 B.C. ), the proto-urban agglomeration of the Pre-Kerma (3000 B.C.) and the ancient city of Kerma (2500-1500 B.C.)—give a glimpse of the world of the living. They show the evolution of settlements for each of the key periods in Nubian history. Huts indicate the birth of a sedentary way of life, the agglomeration confirms the settling of populations on a territory and the capital of the Kingdom of Kerma marks the culmination of the complexification of Nubian architecture with its ever more monumental constructions. The three models were created in Switzerland by Hugo Lienhard and were installed in the museum in January 2009.
Wadi el-Arab reveals an almost continuous series of settlement remains spanning two millennia as well as the first Neolithic burials known in Africa.
This site is located today in a desert region. Discovered in 2005, it has been under excavation since 2006. This is an open-air site occupied on several occasions during a period between 8300 and 6600 B.C. Its inhabitants then lived in a rather wooded environment, living on fishing, hunting and gathering.
The site reveals numerous flint tools and flakes, grinding stone fragments, ceramic sherds, ostrich eggshell beads, shells and mollusc remains, fish vertebrae and faunal remains. Rare domesticated ox bones were discovered and dated to circa 7000 B.C. This discovery is important for the question regarding the origin of animal domestication in Africa because it reinforces the idea of a local domestication of African oxen from aurochs living in the Nile Valley.
During the 2006-2007 campaign, six burial pits were excavated in three different areas. Dated to between 7000 and 6600, these burials are the first known Neolithic burials on the African continent.
The Upper Palaeolithic Lithic Industry of Nazlet Khater 4 (Egypt): Implications for the Stone Age/Palaeolithic of Northeastern Africa
Authors: Leplongeon, Alice1; Pleurdeau, David2 Source: African Archaeological Review, Volume 28, Number 3, September 2011, pp. 213-236(24)
Abstract:
Between Marine Isotope Stage (MIS) 4 and 2, Northeast Africa witnessed migrations of Homo sapiens into Eurasia. Within the context of the aridification of the Sahara, the Nile Valley probably offered a very attractive corridor into Eurasia. This region and this period are therefore central for the (pre)history of the out-of-Africa peopling of modern humans. However, there are very few sites from the beginning of the Upper Palaeolithic that document these migration events. In Egypt, the site of Nazlet Khater 4 (NK4), which is related to ancient H. sapiens quarrying activities, is one of them. Its lithic assemblage shows an important laminar component, and this, associated with its chronological position (ca. 33 ka), means that the site is the most ancient Upper Palaeolithic sites of this region. The detailed study of the Nazlet Khater 4 lithic material shows that blade production (volumetric reduction) is also associated with flake production (surface reduction). This technological duality addresses the issue of direct attribution of NK4 to the Upper Palaeolithic.
Wadi Kubbaniya (ca. 17,000–15,000 B.C.)
In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers. Charred remains of plants that the inhabitants consumed, especially tubers, have also been found.
It appears from the zoological and botanical remains at the various sites in this wadi that the two environmental zones were exploited at different times. We know that the dune sites were occupied when the Nile River flooded the wadi because large numbers of fish and migratory bird bones were found at this location. When the water receded, people then moved down onto the silt left behind on the wadi floor and the floodplain, probably following large animals that looked for water there in the dry season. Paleolithic peoples lived at Wadi Kubbaniya for about 2,000 years, exploiting the different environments as the seasons changed. Other ancient camps have been discovered along the Nile from Sudan to the Mediterranean, yielding similar tools and food remains. These sites demonstrate that the early inhabitants of the Nile valley and its nearby deserts had learned how to exploit local environments, developing economic strategies that were maintained in later cultural traditions of pharaonic Egypt.
"In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods (Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-Saharan Africans as African “parents” and Southwest Asians as Caucasoid parents. Because very similar results are obtained using North Africans as Caucasoid parents, it is difficult to tell whether Southwest Asians or North Africans contributed the Caucasoid genes. Perhaps both did. Using the simple Fst approach discussed in chapter 1 for calculating admixtures, average gene frequencies from Nilotic speakers as prototypes of African ancestors, as well as gene frequencies of North Africans averaged for the five groups of table 3.6.1 as Caucasoid ancestors, one obtains 53% of African (and 47% Caucasoid) contribution for Tigre, 57% for Amhara, 56% for Cushitic."
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans; however, 21% of the Afro-Caribbeans are placed in a cluster with the West Eurasians (presumably reflecting genetic exchange with Europeans)."
Your post shows old data...as usually! lol
Explain why Ethiopians are tropical adapted and not extensive hairy, whereas Eurasians are the complete opposite. Meaning cold adapted and extensive hairy. lol
Not to say that there is no admixture at all. But this gene occurred during the Abyssinia rule and Islamic expansion. The autosomal is typically from Yemen and Oman. A people who look ethnically very similar and have a similair history and culture too. They in fact are a people related to Nilo Saharans and Horners.
More of this later...
The North African part is distinct between Northwest E-M81 and Northeast E-M78. Dumbass.
The Northeast Africa-based E1b1b1a subclade is defined by SNP M78. Somalia, Sudan and Egypt are among the present day countries with very high frequencies (60-90%) of the E1b1b1a M78 subclade. The STR data also support its origin in this area with a TMRCA estimated at 14-23 kya.
The E1b1b1a1b (V32) subclade is a descendant of E1b1b1a1 (V12). E1b1b1a1b/V32 is highest in Somalia (47-75%),
This somewhat rare haplogroup, E1b1b1e (V6), has only been observed in East Africa with the most appreciable levels seen in Ethiopia (4-17%). Kenya and Somalia also harbor a moderate frequency (5%) of this subclade.
"The results of a population survey on blood group distribution in Somalia, East Africa, are presented. Over 1,000 subjects were tested for most blood groups included in the survey. The sampling covered the whole country and was well in accordance with the population density as estimated by the recorded birth places of the subjects. Altogether, 46 blood group antigens were tested, partly common antigens within 11 of the major blood group systems, but also infrequent and very frequent antigens, some not tested before in Africa, were included. The results were compared with the available data for other related peoples and for populations from the same geographical area. The standard genetic distances were also applied in the comparison. The results suggest that only a minor component in the genetic constitution of the Somali population can be ascribed to Caucasian admixture. They are markedly in contrast with some earlier findings. During the survey we observed a previously unknown Rh gene complex occurring with a polymorphic frequency in Somalis." P. Sistonend, J. Koistinena, Aden Abdulleb. (1987) Distribution of Blood Groups in the East African Somali Population. Hum Hered. 37(5):300-313
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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"In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods (Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-Saharan Africans as African “parents” and Southwest Asians as Caucasoid parents. Because very similar results are obtained using North Africans as Caucasoid parents, it is difficult to tell whether Southwest Asians or North Africans contributed the Caucasoid genes. Perhaps both did. Using the simple Fst approach discussed in chapter 1 for calculating admixtures, average gene frequencies from Nilotic speakers as prototypes of African ancestors, as well as gene frequencies of North Africans averaged for the five groups of table 3.6.1 as Caucasoid ancestors, one obtains 53% of African (and 47% Caucasoid) contribution for Tigre, 57% for Amhara, 56% for Cushitic."
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans; however, 21% of the Afro-Caribbeans are placed in a cluster with the West Eurasians (presumably reflecting genetic exchange with Europeans)."
First of all,
E3a and E3b are siblings, the allele mutation in the occurred about 30-20Ky. It's a minor microscopic mutation. Of which you make such a big deal. Sub clases of thsi marker E3b can be found in South African populations as well.
All these people relate very closely, before you do with any of them. As a matter of fact you aren't even in the picture, at all. This is what you can't understand. Although they appear different, physically.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
*Notes on E-M78 and Rosa DNA study linking Egyptians with East and Central Africans. DNA study (Rosa et al. 2007) groups Egyptians with East and Central Africans. Other DNA studies link these peoples together. Quote:“the majority of Y chromosomes found in populations in Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and Oromos in Somalia and North Kenya (Boranas) belong to haplogroup E3b1 defined by the Y chromosome marker M78“(Sanchez 2005). Codes: Egy=Egypt. Or= Oromo, Ethiopia. Am=Amahara, Ethiopia. Sud=Sudan. FCA=Cameroon. Maa= Massai, Kenya. Note: Eighty (80)% or more of the haplotypes in Cameroon are of West African origin (Rosa et al. 2007, Cerny et al. 2006). Ethiopia, Cameroon and most of the Sudan is located below the Sahara, and thus sub-Saharan.-- Rosa, et al.(2007) Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau. BMC Evolutionary Biology. 7:124
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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"In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods (Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-Saharan Africans as African “parents” and Southwest Asians as Caucasoid parents. Because very similar results are obtained using North Africans as Caucasoid parents, it is difficult to tell whether Southwest Asians or North Africans contributed the Caucasoid genes. Perhaps both did. Using the simple Fst approach discussed in chapter 1 for calculating admixtures, average gene frequencies from Nilotic speakers as prototypes of African ancestors, as well as gene frequencies of North Africans averaged for the five groups of table 3.6.1 as Caucasoid ancestors, one obtains 53% of African (and 47% Caucasoid) contribution for Tigre, 57% for Amhara, 56% for Cushitic."
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans; however, 21% of the Afro-Caribbeans are placed in a cluster with the West Eurasians (presumably reflecting genetic exchange with Europeans)."
Berbers are multiethnic and a multimixture!lol
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
"In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods (Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-Saharan Africans as African “parents” and Southwest Asians as Caucasoid parents. Because very similar results are obtained using North Africans as Caucasoid parents, it is difficult to tell whether Southwest Asians or North Africans contributed the Caucasoid genes. Perhaps both did. Using the simple Fst approach discussed in chapter 1 for calculating admixtures, average gene frequencies from Nilotic speakers as prototypes of African ancestors, as well as gene frequencies of North Africans averaged for the five groups of table 3.6.1 as Caucasoid ancestors, one obtains 53% of African (and 47% Caucasoid) contribution for Tigre, 57% for Amhara, 56% for Cushitic."
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans; however, 21% of the Afro-Caribbeans are placed in a cluster with the West Eurasians (presumably reflecting genetic exchange with Europeans)."
Good sources.
Have you noted all the afronuts can do in return is spam charts created in windows paint tool by Zaharan (who has no credentials). LMAO.
Windows paint they think is a valid source.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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Y-DNA haplogroup E probably arose in Northeast Africa, if one looks only at the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration. Today E* is found predominantly in Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are found in Northeast Africa, but surveys show E1 may actually be more prevalent in Mali than in its presumed region of origin. E4 is a minor subclade. E3 is by far the lineage of greatest geographical distribution. It has two important sub-lineages, E3a and E3b. E3a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern Africa to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion. E3a is the most common lineage among African Americans. E3b probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. E3b clusters are seen today in Western Europe, the Balkans, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa. The Cruciani articles (references and links below) are indispensable resources for understanding the structure of this complicated haplogroup.
A caution on clade labels: Because knowledge of this branch of the Y-chromosome tree has advanced so quickly in the last few years, different clade labels can be found in current use for the same SNP-determined branch of the tree. For example, it is still common to see E3b1 and E3b2 used to distinguish between the M78 and M81 branches of the tree though greater resolution is now possible. Also, STR-based distinctions in the M78 branch at one time permitted broad distinctions of alpha, beta, gamma and delta clusters. With the new SNPs reported in the 2006 and 2007 Cruciani studies, it has become possible to see that the alpha cluster, which is widely distributed in Europe, is strongly correlated with the V13 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a2; the beta cluster is strongly correlated with the V65 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a4; the gamma cluster correlates with the V32 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a1a; and the delta cluster tends to correlate with the V22 SNP (E3b1a3) though it includes some V12 haplotypes (E3b1a1) as well.
Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2012
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The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16, 31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula, could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E. It is noteworthy that DE-YAP* has been detected at low frequency in Africa [37]. Again, this hypothesis has its mtDNA counterpart as it is well documented that, in the Palaeolithic, at least three clades (X1, U6, M1) derived respectively from the three main Eurasian macrohaplogroups (N, R, M) came back to North Africa from Asia [38-42].
The similarity of patterns of different mutants indicates some secondary expansions. It is also interesting to sum the distributions of different haplogroups descending from the same mutation, as for example D and E, which both descend from DE-YAP, the first mutation that split into the E branch that perhaps returned to Africa (or arose there), whereas the other branch, D, is found today mainly in the Himalayas and Japan.
Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2012
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Y-DNA haplogroup E probably arose in Northeast Africa, if one looks only at the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration. Today E* is found predominantly in Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are found in Northeast Africa, but surveys show E1 may actually be more prevalent in Mali than in its presumed region of origin. E4 is a minor subclade. E3 is by far the lineage of greatest geographical distribution. It has two important sub-lineages, E3a and E3b. E3a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern Africa to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion. E3a is the most common lineage among African Americans. E3b probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. E3b clusters are seen today in Western Europe, the Balkans, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa. The Cruciani articles (references and links below) are indispensable resources for understanding the structure of this complicated haplogroup.
A caution on clade labels: Because knowledge of this branch of the Y-chromosome tree has advanced so quickly in the last few years, different clade labels can be found in current use for the same SNP-determined branch of the tree. For example, it is still common to see E3b1 and E3b2 used to distinguish between the M78 and M81 branches of the tree though greater resolution is now possible. Also, STR-based distinctions in the M78 branch at one time permitted broad distinctions of alpha, beta, gamma and delta clusters. With the new SNPs reported in the 2006 and 2007 Cruciani studies, it has become possible to see that the alpha cluster, which is widely distributed in Europe, is strongly correlated with the V13 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a2; the beta cluster is strongly correlated with the V65 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a4; the gamma cluster correlates with the V32 SNP that identifies Haplogroup E3b1a1a; and the delta cluster tends to correlate with the V22 SNP (E3b1a3) though it includes some V12 haplotypes (E3b1a1) as well.
It doesn't matter which route you'll take. You will aways end up with the same people as the originators.
Y-DNA haplogroup A contains lineages deriving from the earliest branching in the human Y chromosome tree. The oldest branching event, separating A0-P305 and A1-V161, is thought to have occurred about 140,000 years ago. Haplogroups A0-P305, A1a-M31 and A1b1a-M14 are restricted to Africa and A1b1b-M32 is nearly restricted to Africa. The haplogroup that would be named A1b2 is composed of haplogroups B through T. The internal branching of haplogroup A1-V161 into A1a-M31, A1b1, and BT (A1b2) may have occurred about 110,000 years ago. A0-P305 is found at low frequency in Central and West Africa. A1a-M31 is observed in northwestern Africans; A1b1a-M14 is seen among click language-speaking Khoisan populations. A1b1b-M32 has a wide distribution including Khoisan speaking and East African populations, and scattered members on the Arabian Peninsula.
Hg E arose in East Africa as it derived from Hg A and Hg B, the sub clade E-M78 arose in Northeast Africa.
E3b originated in East Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).
E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
J Hum Genet (2006) 51:47–58 DOI 10.1007/s10038-005-0322-0
ORIGINAL ARTICLE Michael F. Hammer Æ Tatiana M. Karafet Hwayong Park Æ
Keiichi Omoto Æ Shinji Harihara Mark Stoneking Æ Satoshi Horai
Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes
Genetic origins of the Ainu inferred from combined DNA analyses of maternal and paternal lineages
Phylogenetic position of the Ainu in Asian populations inferred from mtDNA data To investigate population relatedness between the Ainu and other Asian populations, we constructed a rooted NJ tree for the 16 Asian populations (Fig. 3), together with African population (Horai and Hayasaka 1990;
Fig. 3 Neighbor-joining tree for the 16 Asian populations, on the basis of dA distances estimated from the nucleotide sequences of 482-bp fragments of the D-loop region (positions 16129–16569 followed by positions 1–41 in the reference mtDNA sequence of Anderson et al. 1981) with the Kimura’s two-parameter correction (Kimura 1980). This tree is rooted with African population (Horai and Hayasaka 1990; Vigilant et al. 1991) as an outgroup. Bootstrap probabilities (over 50%) are attached to the internal branches. The scale for genetic distance is shown below the tree
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