posted
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago" (Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345) from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927
Where is this based on?
Thanks in advance,
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The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?
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Last week I was reading in a Bantu Hebrew blog that the Moor, Berber and Touareg people are Moabite and Ammonite from West Asia.Another blog stated the metis Berber are the result of the mixtured of the black Kamite and the white female Turkish slaves of their harem.Cheikh Anta Diop stated the Moors(black) are from Yemen in the Arabian peninsula.
According to the Bantu Hebrew blog the West African are Egyptian, the Kongo and Bantu people are Hebrew, the Horn Africans are Canaanite.
Im open minded but I have to do more research to verify their history.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago" (Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345) from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927
Where is this based on?
Thanks in advance,
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa 2004
Barbara Arredi,1,2,
Abstract We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.....
Together, these genetic analyses highlighted the similarity between northeastern Africa and the Middle East and the clear genetic differentiation between northwestern Africa and both sub-Saharan Africa and Europe, including Iberia.....
In contrast, R1b made up 55% of a mixed European sample [Underhill et al. 2000] and was even higher [77%] in the Iberian sample examined by Bosch et al. [2001], whereas E3a predominates in many sub-Saharan areas, being present at 64% in a pooled sample [Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002]. Such a finding is not surprising, in the light of the earlier genetic studies, but has an important implication: despite haplogroups shared at low frequency, suggesting limited gene flow, North African populations have a genetic history largely distinct from both Europe and sub-Saharan Africa over the timescales needed for the Y-chromosomal differentiation to develop.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?
The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou. M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257. " A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81" If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?
The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou. M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257. " A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81" If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.
read:
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa Fulvio Cruciani,
^^^^ full article link in thread, M81, M215 discussed
M257 discussed in second post by Troll
these are all sub clades of M215
M81 is a more recent mutation unique to berbers
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe. An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other authors, and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. —Trombetta et al. 2011Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Some people in the forum will date a sub clade wich is a unique mutation to it's related parent haplogroup. It is a misleading simplification. people around here do this a lot. If you trace back any subclade eventually it all leads back to Africa. People do this and then claim any given haplogroup is African, which it is only in a very broad sense that mankind is believed to have originated in Africa
In human genetics, E-Z827, is the name of a major Y chromosome haplogroup. It is defined as the lineage which combines the haplogroups E-Z830 and E-V257, and defines their common ancestry. The former is predominantly found in Eastern Africa, Southern Africa and the Middle East, while the later is most frequently observed in North Western Africa. age: approx 15,000 years BP
M81 is a more recent mutation believed to be about 5,600 years ago. The geographic origin of M81 is controversial to some extent:
wiki:
E-M81 is the most common subclade of E-L19/V257 and found in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 100% in some isolated Berber populations to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[10][11][12] Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker". Pereira et al. (2010) report high levels among Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina Faso, and 81.8% from Gossi in Mali. There was a much lower frequency of 11.1% in the vicinity of Tanut in the Republic of Niger.
E-M81 is also quite common among North African Arabic-speaking groups. It is generally found at frequencies around 45% in coastal cities of the Maghreb (Oran, Tunis, Tizi Ouzou, Algiers).[13]
In this key area from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean, Arredi et al. (2004) report a pattern of decreasing STR haplotype variation (implying decreasing lineage age in those areas) from East to West, accompanied by a substantial increasing frequency. At the eastern extreme of this core range, Kujanova et al. (2009) found M81 in 28.6% (10 out of 35 men) in El-Hayez in the Western desert in Egypt
Arredi et al. (2004) believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic language may have been carried either all the way from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". According to Shomarka Keita, a Near Eastern origin of proto-Afroasiatic speakers carrying E-M81, or its ancestral lineage, is inconsistent with the linguistic evidence, which seems to indicate an African origin of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers. Keita argues that there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in the Maghreb, or possibly as far southeast as the Horn of Africa.[14]
[edit]Europe In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 2] it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency around 5%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[15][16][17][18][19] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[19] to 41% (23/56).[20] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[21]
E-M81 is also found in France, 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[22][23] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina),[24] and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (especially near Lucera)[18] due to historic colonization during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires or ancient migrations in the Metals Ages through maritime means.
______________________________
I'm going to post the Cruciani/ Trombetta/ La Fratta
Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12
in Egyptology forum
haven't read it yet
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"Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out"
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Quote: ""The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago""
That has been corrected to >90,000ya
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Just read the Abstract....I read the entire paper a couple of years ago. Amazing when you re-read things the new insight you get.
I am quickly come to the conclusion that not only was the Levant a major thoroughfare OUT of Africa, and not the Horn, but Iberia and Tunisia also.
Quote: The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 AND 6.8 ky ago.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12
in Egyptology forum
haven't read it yet
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Can't help it. It is my technical background. You know...focus on the question asked ie issue at hand.
Title: Do the Berbers descend of Iberumaurians?
Answer: the Berbers did NOT come from Iberia.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Can't help it. It is my technical background. You know...focus on the question asked ie issue at hand.
Title: Do the Berbers descend of Iberumaurians?
Answer: the Berbers did NOT come from Iberia.
The article in the first post says they descend from middle eastern people and yes that is not Iberia despite the name " Iberumaurian"
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?
The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou. M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257. " A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81" If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.
Hi Mazigh.
The largest contribution Berbers have received overall is from the Ibero-Maurusians. This view is supported by genome-wide analysis of Berber populations (though not by haplogroup analysis). When you correlate the appearance of Capsian populations with haplogroups, the only haplogroups that dates to this time period are (subclades of) H1, H4 and some others, like U5. These are all Iberian lineages that also spread to the rest of Europe, around the same time.
If the Capsians would have come from the East, then we would expect to see the highest amount of this ancestry in the East, and the lowest amount of this ancestry in the West. This is, in fact, the exact opposite of what we see. Capsian populations don't really look like anything that's in Eastern Africa either (in terms of bodyplan, mandible and cranio-facial phenotype in general), nor did they bring with them typical East African characteristics that were prevalent in Northeast Africa at the time, like ground stones and extensive grain collecting. These behaviours are attested very early linguistically in Proto-Afrasan, so their absence in the Capsian cultures is quite telling.
E-M81 seems to have originated among E-V257 carrying Afrasan speaking groups during/after (not before) their expansion to Northwest Africa. These groups look to have been, among others, Badarian-like cultured populations that introduced certain Neolithic characteristics to the Capsians, and whom also reached Iberia. Capsians also received Neolithic input from Neolithic traditions other than Africans, but that's another subject.
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the Aterian was succeeded by the Iberomaurusian culture, which shared similarities with Iberian cultures. Skeletal similarities have been suggested between the Iberomaurusian "Mechta-Afalou" burials and European Cro-Magnon remains. The Iberomaurusian was succeeded by the Beaker culture in Morocco.
Studies have discovered a close link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the last ice age ____________________________________________________________
The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. A key question surrounds its appearance in the Maghreb, a semi-arid upland zone on the edge of the Sahara, soon after the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 years ago) and despite evidence for a continuation into the Holocene very little is known either about the later part of this timespan or what processes led to its disappearance after 9000 years ago. An issue rarely commented upon is the apparently synchronous and sudden occurrence of large scale midden deposits in Iberomaurusian contexts in caves across the western Maghreb at around 13,000 years ago. This also seems to have coincided with the appearance of some of the earliest cemeteries. ___________________________________________________
J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410. The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end? Irish JD. Source Department of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7720, USA. ffjdi@uaf.edu
Abstract Data obtained during an ongoing dental investigation of African populations address two long-standing, hotly debated questions. First, was there genetic continuity between Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and later northwest Africans (e.g., Capsians, Berbers, Guanche)? Second, were skeletally-robust Iberomaurusians and northeast African Nubians variants of the same population? Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed: (1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied. Copyright 2000 Academic Press.
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Because of maternal transmission and lack of recombination, the sequence differentiation of human mtDNA has been generated by only the sequential accumulation of new mutations along radiating maternal lineages. Over the course of time, this process of molecular divergence has given rise to monophyletic units that are called “haplogroups.” Because this process of molecular differentiation occurred mainly during and after the process of human colonization of and diffusion into the different continents and regions, haplogroups and subhaplogroups tend to be restricted to specific geographic areas and population groups [Wallace 1995; Achilli et al. 2004].
Only the founders of the sister superhaplogroups M and N [which includes haplogroup R] [Quintana-Murci et al. 1999] participated in the “out of Africa” exit [Cann et al. 1987; Stringer and Andrews 1988; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Underhill et al. 2000; Forster et al. 2001] and were successful in colonizing the rest of the Old World. Superhaplogroup N is globally distributed outside Africa, encompassing virtually all of the western Eurasian mtDNA variation, and embraces haplogroup U, nested in haplogroup R. Haplogroup U has an extremely broad geographic distribution that ranges from Europe and North Africa to India and Central Asia and has a very high overall frequency [15%–30%] [Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004]
To assess the nature and extent of haplogroup U variation, we initially sequenced 28 entire U mtDNAs [see authors' Web site and GenBank] from a wide range of populations. These were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region to include the widest possible range of haplogroup U internal variation. A tree of the mtDNA sequences [fig. 1] reveals that haplogroup U first splits into two major subsets, distinguished by the mutation at nt 1811, and that there is a very large number of independent basal branches. Among these, representatives of all known subhaplogroups [U1–U9] were included. However, subhaplogroup U5 provided a rather intriguing result. A Yakut from northeastern Siberia [27 in fig. 1] and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions.
To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.
Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.
The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.
Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.
To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.
Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.
The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.
Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Because of maternal transmission and lack of recombination, the sequence differentiation of human mtDNA has been generated by only the sequential accumulation of new mutations along radiating maternal lineages. Over the course of time, this process of molecular divergence has given rise to monophyletic units that are called “haplogroups.” Because this process of molecular differentiation occurred mainly during and after the process of human colonization of and diffusion into the different continents and regions, haplogroups and subhaplogroups tend to be restricted to specific geographic areas and population groups [Wallace 1995; Achilli et al. 2004].
Only the founders of the sister superhaplogroups M and N [which includes haplogroup R] [Quintana-Murci et al. 1999] participated in the “out of Africa” exit [Cann et al. 1987; Stringer and Andrews 1988; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Underhill et al. 2000; Forster et al. 2001] and were successful in colonizing the rest of the Old World. Superhaplogroup N is globally distributed outside Africa, encompassing virtually all of the western Eurasian mtDNA variation, and embraces haplogroup U, nested in haplogroup R. Haplogroup U has an extremely broad geographic distribution that ranges from Europe and North Africa to India and Central Asia and has a very high overall frequency [15%–30%] [Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004]
To assess the nature and extent of haplogroup U variation, we initially sequenced 28 entire U mtDNAs [see authors' Web site and GenBank] from a wide range of populations. These were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region to include the widest possible range of haplogroup U internal variation. A tree of the mtDNA sequences [fig. 1] reveals that haplogroup U first splits into two major subsets, distinguished by the mutation at nt 1811, and that there is a very large number of independent basal branches. Among these, representatives of all known subhaplogroups [U1–U9] were included. However, subhaplogroup U5 provided a rather intriguing result. A Yakut from northeastern Siberia [27 in fig. 1] and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions.
To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.
Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.
The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.
Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.
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quote by Lioness: and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions
several studies confirm U5 in central Africa is ancestral to what is found in Europe.....meaning?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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It seems that the antropologists are agreed that the Capsians contributed the most to the Berber group. Traces of the Iberomaurusian (Mechta Afalou) were also found, but seemd to be of secondary impact, so contrary to my quote.
(by the way, Thanks for the link to the DNA tree, Lioness).
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First off the "Berbers" are not an ancient "clan" or "lineage" that can be directly tied to any ancient African population more than 3,000 years ago because "Berber" is a language not a genetic signature, not a "race" and not a single ethnic group. There are various ethnic groups amongst the "Berbers" just as there are various ethnic groups among all populations speaking a similar language. The problem here is that anthropologists are trying to turn the "Berber" into a mono ethnic entity and then trying to fabricate an ancient history for this entity that does not exist in the way they try and pretend it does, (ie. ancient aboriginal white North Africans).
Any research that tries to tie the "berbers" to populations in Africa more than 3,000 years ago is a fraud as the Berber language is only 2-3,000 years old at best. Therefore, any populations prior to that time have no business being called "Berber". And, more importantly, the populations they are trying to tie them to are likewise separate and distinct ethnic groups with different lineages from different times and different regions. For example, the Libu or ancient Libyans were one ethnic group, the Sea People another ethnic group, the Ribu another, the Meshwesh another, along with the Tjemehu and Tjehenu. There is no evidence that any of these people spoke a "Beber" language or even a proto form of Berber language. Then came the Greeks identified more ethnic groups (which no longer exist in the same way they once did) such as the Gaetules, the Maure (moors), Massilye, lotus eaters and so forth.
It is only later, under the Phoenicians of Carthage can the first evidence of "Berber" languages be said to have been found (2,000 years ago) in the Libyco-berber script. And it is after this time that the first references to "Berbers" as a group are found, primarily in the writings of the Arabs, who identified even more ethnic groups. Which leads us to the Islamic era and the Moorish era with the various confederations of clans that were identified amongst the Berber speakers and during this time not only were there Arab incursions and mixing within these populations but you also had European incursions and mixing, most especially along the coast. And that is followed by the colonial era when new ethnic groups began to be identified like the Kabyle, the Siwa, Ouled Nail, the Tuareg and so forth. And even amongst these groups you have ethnic sub groups and clans, each with their own lineages and histories of mixture with other populations.
So how on earth can you take all these people and ethnic groups with different histories and ethnic backgrounds and try to make them into a single monolithic entity stretching back over 10,000 years? You can't. And the fact is that those trying to do so are purely speaking nonsense historical fantasy. And that is especially true for those trying to claim that the "Berbers" originate with some mythic ancient "Eurasian" population that arrived in Africa bringing Berber language and culture with them, which is not only simply false but OVERWHELMINGLY so as all the facts an evidence point to Berber languages originating in East Africa, traveling to Southern Egypt and into the Sahara from which it went to coastal North Africa. And there is no evidence for Eurasians traveling to North Africa from East Africa and the Sahara. That is just pure nonsense.
Also, keep in mind that the Iberomaurisan was strictly limited to the coastal Areas of North Africa. That does not cover ALL of North Africa during that time frame. So it is another example of how Eurocentric anthropologists focus exclusively on the extreme coasts of North Africa versus on the ENTIRE expanse of North Africa, which includes the Sahara when studying the history and population of North Africa, which shows how they try to play up any possible influence from Europe due to the proximity to the North African coast far and beyond its actual significance.
Now keep in mind that the EARLIEST BLADE INDUSTRIES ON EARTH occur in central and eastern Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago (not counting the pre human hominid evidence from millions of years ago) so how on earth can the iberomaurisan be the FIRST tool industry in North Africa?
quote: The Aterian industry is a name given by archaeologists to a type of stone tool manufacturing dating to the Middle Stone Age (or Middle Palaeolithic). Derived from the Mousterian culture in the region around the Atlas Mountains and the northern Sahara, it refers the site of Bir el Ater, south of Annaba.
The industry was probably created by modern humans (Homo sapiens), albeit of an early type, as shown by the few skeletal remains known so far from sites on the Moroccan Atlantic coast extending to Egypt.
Bifacially-worked, leaf-shaped and tanged projectile points are a common artefact type and so are racloirs and Levallois flakes. Items of personal adornment (pierced and ochred Nassarius shell beads) are known from at least one Aterian site, with an age of 82,000 years.
quote: The earliest blade industries in North Africa are called Ibero-Maurusian or Oranian (after a site near Oran). The industry appears to have spread throughout the coastal regions of North Africa between 15,000 and 10,000 BCE. Between about 9000 and 5000 BCE, the Capsian culture made its appearance showing signs to belong to the Neolithic and began influencing the IberoMaurusian, and after about 3000 BCE the remains of just one human culture can be found throughout the former region.
All of this shows that Europeans extend their Eurocentric framework into prehistory by trying to pretend that working stone tools somehow originated in Europe and the Mediterranean and not Africa considering that ALL of the hominid species originated in Africa.
But according to their terminologies you wouldn't know that. And the main reason is because they haven't really done any serious excavations in Africa, especially in the Nile Valley and East Africa to determine the age of stone tools in Africa.
quote: Not long ago, researchers thought that blades were so hard to make that they had to be the handiwork of modern humans, who had evolved the mental wherewithal to systematically strike a cobble in the right way to produce blades and not just crude stone flakes. First, they were thought to be a hallmark of the late Stone Age, which began 40,000 years ago. Later, blades were thought to have emerged in the Middle Stone Age, which began about 200,000 years ago when modern humans arose in Africa and invented a new industry of more sophisticated stone tools. But this view has been challenged in recent years as researchers discovered blades that dated to 380,000 years in the Middle East and to almost 300,000 years ago in Europe, where Neandertals may have made them (ScienceNOW, 1 December 2008).
Now it appears that more than 500,000 years ago, human ancestors living in the Baringo Basin of Kenya collected lava stone cobbles from a riverbed and hammered them in just the right way to produce stone blades. Paleoanthropologists Cara Roure Johnson and Sally McBrearty of the University of Connecticut, Storrs, recently discovered the blades at five sites in the region, including two that date to between 509,000 and 543,000 years ago. "This is the oldest known occurrence of blades," Johnson reported Wednesday here at the annual meeting of the Paleoanthropology Society.
Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic. Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".
I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.
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Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic. Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".
I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.
Since there were no Berber speakers during the Capsian period, what you are saying makes no sense.
Who were the first populations to have spoken berber languages and where did those populations originate? That is the ONLY issue I am referring to. People are just randomly lumping any and all populations from any time period together as "Berber" even though the name is a reference to a LANGUAGE that is only about 2,500 years old. And the evidence for that origin lies in the Sahara which is a long way from the homelands of the Capsian culture. So again, I have a problem with folks making up a monolithic entity called "Berber" and trying to tie it to ancient assemblages of different ethnic groups as if they were all of the same ethnic background or not. This has absolutely nothing to do with a Eurasian/African basis for these populations, as opposed to the nonsense that a language spoken by populations with different ethnic backgrounds suddenly can be lumped together as some homogenous entity when they are not. There is no SINGLE ethnic group among the "Berbers". Berbers are a mixed ethnic group, some having more Eurasian genes and others being more Arab mixed, with the predominant lineage and population being purely black African. Trying to pretend that these are all one single ethnic group is NONSENSE.
So again, to get back to the point, what is the earliest unequivocal evidence of Berber languages and where is it found and among what populations?
My point is that the answer to that will show that it THOSE populations who were the first to speak Berber languages along with those speaking proto-berber languages had LITTLE to do with the Capsian culture.
Not to mention that most of those lineages died out anyway and the lineages found in most Berbers are YOUNGER than the Capsian. M81 is not a "Capsian" marker. Now if you can show me how it is, then you will be making some sense. But you can't which is why I am calling you on it.
Here is where M81 originates:
Therefore, on any level this is pure nonsense.
Berber languages, just like the original North Africans all originate in East Africa. Therefore, trying to pretend that some stone age culture in ancient Northern Africa can be exclusively tied to Berber languages as a monolithic ethnic group is NON SENSE.
quote: Proto-Berber shows features which clearly distinguish it from all other branches of Afroasiatic, but modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 10000~9000 BP, according to grottochronological studies,[2] Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) stage around 7000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) stage as the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages.[3]
In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels;[4] (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5])
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
Note that even here it is mentioned that Tifinagh and Tamashek as Tuareg Berber languages are considered the OLDEST or most archaic variants of the Berber languages. The Tuareg are tied to ethnic groups in East Africa.
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Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic. Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".
I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.
If Mazigh, who is a delusional Turk mulatto, is against it, then I just had to check it out.
This is from Wiki:
Capsian culture.
The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa in Tunisia) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily. It is traditionally divided into two horizons, the Capsien typique (Typical Capsian) and the Capsien supérieur (Upper Capsian) which are sometimes found in chronostratigraphic sequence. They represent variants of one tradition, the differences between them being both typological and technological.
During this period, the environment of the Maghreb was open savanna, much like modern East Africa, with Mediterranean forests at higher altitudes. The Capsian diet included a wide variety of animals, ranging from aurochs and hartebeest to hares and snails; there is little evidence concerning plants eaten. During the succeeding Neolithic of Capsian Tradition, there is evidence from one site, for domesticated, probably imported, ovicaprids.
Anatomically, Capsian populations were modern Homo sapiens, traditionally classed into two "racial" types: Proto-Mediterranean and Mechta-Afalou on the basis of cranial morphology. Some have argued that they were immigrants from the east, whereas others argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics and other criteria.
Meyers Blitz-Lexikon (Leipzig, 1932) shows a Corsican man as an example of the Mediterranean type.
Mechta-Afalou
Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).
Mechtoids were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages. The Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.
They offer this statue of Bencomo, the ruler of Guanches, at Tenerife for the Mechta-Afalou.
They look pretty much the same as these Nubian (Sudan) skulls. How about it Mazigh, do you think your people were from Nubia too?
He,he,he:
No man, your people are from Central Asia. There are lots of skeletons of your people there, and you are quite welcome to them. Soon Africans will sent you back to them.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: First off the "Berbers" are not an ancient "clan" or "lineage" that can be directly tied to any ancient African population more than 3,000 years ago because "Berber" is a language not a genetic signature, not a "race" and not a single ethnic group. There are various ethnic groups amongst the "Berbers" just as there are various ethnic groups among all populations speaking a similar language. The problem here is that anthropologists are trying to turn the "Berber" into a mono ethnic entity and then trying to fabricate an ancient history for this entity that does not exist in the way they try and pretend it does, (ie. ancient aboriginal white North Africans).
Any research that tries to tie the "berbers" to populations in Africa more than 3,000 years ago is a fraud as the Berber language is only 2-3,000 years old at best.
There are no Libyco-Berber inscription 2-3ky old written in a Berber language. These incriptions are written in the Mande language.
posted
Doug is right that "berber" is not one ancestry but multiple ancestries of a culture and language,
However people who are primarily hg M81 could be spoken about. Some Tunisians are as high as 90-100%. M81 is considered unique to North Africa and set apart from Sub Saharan populations and European populations (except the Saami)
It's interesting the connection with the Nordic aboriginal Saami people (aka pejorative Lapps) They live in parts of far northern Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Kola Peninsula of Russia, and the border area between south and middle Sweden and Norway. According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^Ha,ha,ha: I was looking for an article about Black physical diversity to give you, so I wouldn't have to bother, but there was none. Imagine that, 2013 and you Albinos still can't accept that there is NOTHING unique about you - you are merely Albinos, thus you must share phenotypes with your normal relatives. As a result of your inability to accept reality, you still persist in this nonsense about only Albinos having straight hair. Cass has a mental defect, what's your excuse?
Anyway, please save this post so that I won't be bothered by your inane Albino stupidity again.
BLACKS WITH STRAIGHT OR WAVY HAIR:
I'm starting off with this one, just to remind you of where your "Blonde" hair comes from!
.
I reached the posting limit, but I'm sure that these will do:
So then, please explain why you have such a hard time accepting the reality that your histories and most of you racial pronouncements are lies. Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I think that the remaining Afrocentrists here are too fool to begin with My excuses.
@The lioness, Don't tell me that the Berbers have multiple ancestors, I said it as first. But you suggest it is a special case of the Berbers. There are no people with one ancestor. But it goes on the principal predator.
I think i should try with the Eurocentrits, I hope they're wiser, and not obsessed with images.
But generally, I do respect the Afrocentrits, and I hope they advance in their cause, but with more logic and sense. Because, they -like as they are now- are hopeless.
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Is it not logical then to assume that because these people have NOTHING in common with the LOWER ORDER Animals, that THEY are the highest form of Human EVOLUTION?Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I think that the remaining Afrocentrists here are too fool to begin with My excuses.
@The lioness, Don't tell me that the Berbers have multiple ancestors, I said it as first. But you suggest it is a special case of the Berbers. There are no people with one ancestor. But it goes on the principal predator.
I think i should try with the Eurocentrits, I hope they're wiser, and not obsessed with images.
But generally, I do respect the Afrocentrits, and I hope they advance in their cause, but with more logic and sense. Because, they -like as they are now- are hopeless.
Mazigh - Name calling is fine, I myself do it out of disgust.
But did you notice that I substantiate what I say?
I certainly noticed that you could not - substantiate what you say.
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My dear friend Mike, It is how you view it. I came here to ask a question, not to begin a race war. Wether it was black or white, that is the least interesting to me. So, it has no sense to give arguments on things I didn't want to speak about. Supposing you are right, what did then I learn by knowing that some people were black or white? It makes only sense when the aimed answer is limited to color. I can understand this, but it doesn't attrack me.
I know there are also Nazi's, and that causes a vicious circle between afrocentrists and whitecentrists. But at least, it may not be an absession to draw it with you anywhere and anytime. Best regards
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: My dear friend Mike, It is how you view it. I came here to ask a question, not to begin a race war. Wether it was black or white, that is the least interesting to me. So, it has no sense to give arguments on things I didn't want to speak about. Supposing you are right, what did then I learn by knowing that some people were black or white? It makes only sense when the aimed answer is limited to color. I can understand this, but it doesn't attrack me.
I know there are also Nazi's, and that causes a vicious circle between afrocentrists and whitecentrists. But at least, it may not be an absession to draw it with you anywhere and anytime. Best regards
Mazigh - That sounds very humane and agreeable, but unfortunately the tangible reality is quite different.
I do not post pictures like this as an exercise, I post them to educate ignorant Negroes, who are moved by words like yours.
It is my hope that eventually they will start to realize what these pictures actually mean.
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Comedian now? Haven't done much research on Saami...my understanding is they are admixed Asians/Europeans. Although I did read their U5 is dissimilar to other modern Europeans
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Comedian now? Haven't done much research on Saami...my understanding is they are admixed Asians/Europeans. Although I did read their U5 is dissimilar to other modern Europeans
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)
read 20th post from top of page
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I read from SEVERAL sources before making up my mind. I read..the 20th post about ...3 years ago. Johnny come lately...
My electronic library ...and...paper ...is extensive.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I read from SEVERAL sources before making up my mind. I read..the 20th post about ...3 years ago. Johnny come lately...
My electronic library ...and...paper ...is extensive.
and where has that gotten you?
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I'm starting to have my doubts that people of the Maghreb origins are Africans.
"North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data (730,000 sites) from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago (approximately 1,200 ya); a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago (approximately 750 ya). Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa." Source: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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I didn't see it and my thread appeared to be messed up for some reason.
I am having second thoughts because the ancestry for Northwest Africans seems more Eurasian from what I've seen.
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Just search for it by pressing CTRL+F and type in: Henn. Yeah, you're right about the order of posts; they're rearranged. This isn't the first time I've seen this unfortunately. **Sigh**.
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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My excuses.
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