quote:Originally posted by Doug M: MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.
who cares when it was invented? i am using it now to refer to what i said i'm using it refer to. that's what words are for.
having some ancestry from beyond the Sahara would not prevent ancient Sudanese (or for that matter ancient Egyptians) from being 'black'.
I know what words are for. You were sarcastically pretending to not understand why some other poster used the term the way they did and I am explaining the context.
MENA as a new made up geographical term has no relevance to the antiquity of and diversity of indigenous African people who predate such populations outside of Africa by hundreds of thousands of years.....
True even the term Africa itself is not truly African but that is beside the point. However, "Africa" as a geographical continent is a fixed entity historically, culturally and anthropologically. "Middle East" is not.
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Tukuler
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Capra Why not post something that'll give you some substance. Of course being of foreign incursive stock that's what you want to find. Go for it man
Just put up some examples with dates and precise tribes of your wish-they- were-in-Ancient-Nubia-in-significant -numbers European folk.
Because right now it seems like some She, King Solomons Mines, Antinea, or Conan and Bęlit White Clouds Over Kush Euro fantasy to me.
Meanwhile I'll be looking for the Congolese who admixed Lithuania because the two artworks from Wawat and Meroe I posted is all I could dig up to help your case and at best they support insignificant absorbtion (founder effect aside).
DougM The word africa derives from the Aourigha of ancient Tunisia who just may be today's Ifuraces.
"Western Asia" is popular in articles but a little less precise
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"Middle East" is politically contentious ( although I still sometimes use it) and "North Africa" is not good because it can be defined in four or five different ways
The problem with MENA is that it goes as far to step out of the continent trying to link the Mahgreb/Northern Egypt with the Levant/Arabian peninsula ("Middle East") which is somewhat a denial of it's Africaness
MENA has no standardized definition; different organizations define the region as consisting of different territories.
That is a definite problem in the anthropological discussions. The terms I have listed above are not perfect but they are mostly better, less ambiguous
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quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Actually it’s a bit crazy, when you really start to think about it. Then to know that the people of that origin have no say in it. It’s like, do as is told, OR!!!
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
different text every week but always the same shitty sermon.
btw, while i reflexively mocked you, your response about depictions of ancient Sudanese skin colour was actually on topic and relevant evidence, i appreciate that.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
Middle East North Africa is an ethno-political term severing all north of the Tropic of Cancer from Africa. Based on Arab conquest and subsequent forced adoption of Arabic language and culture as part of the Arab's Islam. Religion remains a powerful source of control.
It's a way to give Arab League states a faux continent of their own as people who are born and bred Africans (Amazigh and Somali for instance) pretend to be Arab and deny Africa.
It's a way to turn northern Africa into 'SW Asia'. But when life throws lemons catch 'em and make lemonade. So, for the astute it reconnects the Arabian subplate to its parent African plate. I mean now that Turkey, Afghanistan, etc aren't middle east anymore this century.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
uh, who benefited from what exactly?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
uh, who benefited from what exactly?
He seemed to be saying the Arabs benefitted by acquiring a piece of Africa
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Tukuler
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
BTW Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/ Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular females?
quote:Originally posted by capra: PPS i don't know. MENA mtDNA frequency in the Horn of Africa seems to track pretty closely to autosomal proportion suggesting not much sex bias either way. Y hgs all over the place as they tend to be.
[Pagani (2012)]
[The non-African component was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula,]
Whoops. It was the Levant not the AP.
[genetic studies indicate that a major component of recent Ethiopian ancestry originates outside Africa: for example, half of the mtDNA haplotypes16 ]
Yah. 1 out of 2 mtDNA HGs versus 1 out of 5 nrY HGs is definitely a sex bias.
But not any Arabian Habesh women. So I guess Sabaean cross currents don't apply.
[the genomic regions containing functionally divergent genes might experience either positive or negative selection, depending on whether their adaptive contribution was beneficial or damaging in the new environment, or whether it affected social factors such as sexual selection.]
[the presence of the derived A allele of the SNP rs1834640, associated with the light skin pigmentation of Europeans and western Asians,47 at higher frequencies in Semitic-Cushitic groups compared with Omotic, Nilotic, or Nigerian- Congolese groups (0.55 versus 0.23, 0.07, and 0.04, respectively).]
Are there later studies contradicting this Pagani.
Also, was the flow via the Red Sea, the west coastlands of the Red Sea, or the Nile? What in history or archaeology goes along with the genetics?
posted
sure, the question is when and where did this sex biased admixture occur?
Natufians from Israel ~13 000 years ago had 5/5 E-M35 as paternal lineages (at least some of it E-Z830(xE-M123)). all of their mt DNA was N, autosomally they mostly resemble other West Eurasians, probably with some kind of indeterminate African ancestry, but with no detectable drift shared with our ancient Ethiopian highlander Mota.
there was also plenty of E-M35 (including a possible E-M34 and a probable E-M78*) in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B of Jordan. The Early Neolithic Moroccans, who are kind of sui generis but more like modern North Africans than anything else, also have 2/2 E-M35 (some E-L19 probably related to E-M81), while their mtDNA is characteristically North African M1b1 and U6a.
so if E-M35 was already dominant in Natufians north of the Sahara before the beginning of the Holocene - and very likely North Africa too judging by its modern distribution - there is no need to have the sex-biased admixture occur again independently in the Horn of Africa 10 000 years later. (not to say it couldn't be, just that it isn't necessary.)
as said above so far as i have seen (haven't exhaustively checked) the *autosomal* MENA ancestry proportion in Horners tends to be pretty close to mt MENA proportion. if the MENA ancestry all arrived by female gene flow it would be half what the mt proportion is. hence it would make sense for E-M35 to have arrived partially admixed with MENA ancestry already.
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something to keep in mind when dealing with LD dates: "Assuming that the African and non-African components of the Ethiopian genomes result from a single admixture event, we used ROLLOFF to estimate the midpoint of the period of admixture. However, if there were multiple or continuous admixture events, as with the North African populations, this method detected the most recent event or the admixture midpoint, respectively."
i.e. do not assume 3000 years ago is actually when the mixing event happened, or that there was only one event.
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Am J Hum Genet. 2012 Jul 13; 91(1): 83–96. doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2012.05.015 PMCID: PMC3397267 Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool
Luca Pagani,1 2012
Abstract Humans and their ancestors have traversed the Ethiopian landscape for millions of years, and present-day Ethiopians show great cultural, linguistic, and historical diversity, which makes them essential for understanding African variability and human origins. We genotyped 235 individuals from ten Ethiopian and two neighboring (South Sudanese and Somali) populations on an Illumina Omni 1M chip. Genotypes were compared with published data from several African and non-African populations. Principal-component and STRUCTURE-like analyses confirmed substantial genetic diversity both within and between populations, and revealed a match between genetic data and linguistic affiliation. Using comparisons with African and non-African reference samples in 40-SNP genomic windows, we identified “African” and “non-African” haplotypic components for each Ethiopian individual. The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya). The non-African component was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula, but the principal route for the expansion out of Africa ∼60 kya remains unresolved. Linkage-disequilibrium decay with genomic distance was less rapid in both the whole genome and the African component than in southern African samples, suggesting a less ancient history for Ethiopian populations.
Source of the Major Out-of-Africa Migration
Consistent with previous studies' reports of a steady decline in genetic similarity among non-African populations as a function of geographical traveling distance from East Africa, we found that the FST values estimated between either Ethiopian or North African populations and non-African populations followed the same pattern (Figure 2, Table S2). This steady decline has been argued27 to be compatible with a single exit followed by isolation-by-distance, rather than with two distinct African sources contributing to the non-African diversity. Neither including nor excluding the Ethiopian data altered the pattern. To follow the thread left by this dispersal in more detail, we used the genome partitioning performed earlier to calculate the minimum pairwise difference between the African component of the Egyptian and Ethiopian populations and the equivalent genomic segment in non-Africans. The partitioning would remove noise, caused by recent backflows into Africa, which might otherwise mask the original out-of-Africa signal. If the mouth of the Red Sea had been a major migration route out of Africa, we might observe a closer affinity of Ethiopians, rather than Egyptians, with non-Africans.
As a proof of principle, we first applied the approach to a genetic system with a well-understood phylogeographic structure: mtDNA. Virtually all indigenous sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages belong to L haplogroups, whereas the presence of haplogroups M and N in North and East Africa has been interpreted as a signal of gene flow back to Africa.48,49 With the full set of 18 mtDNA SNPs used in our genome-wide data set, Egyptians and Moroccans proved to be the closest African population to any non-African population examined (Table 2A). However, when we first partitioned the mtDNA lineages into African and non-African (i.e., L and non-L) and considered only the L component, a different pattern emerged: Ethiopians were the closest population to the non-Africans (Table 2B), consistent with inferences drawn from more detailed mtDNA analyses.50
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In 2015, a genetic research team led by M. Gallego Llorente and E. R. Jones managed to successfully extract ancient DNA from a human skeleton found in Mota Cave, located in the Gamo highlands of southwestern Ethiopia. The Mota remains belonged to a middle-aged male hunter-gatherer, and were radiocarbon dated to around 4,500 years before present: examination of the fossil’s Y-DNA and mtDNA assigned him to the paternal haplogroup E1b1 and the maternal haplogroup L3x2a, respectively:
In order to ascertain whether Mota carried any West Eurasian ancestry like modern Ethiopian populations, the researchers then ran an admixture analysis using the Yoruba and Druze as the African and West Eurasian reference samples, respectively, against which Mota’s DNA and that of other contemporary populations was compared. The results suggested that Mota lacked any West Eurasian ancestry. This was also supported by the fact that the specimen did not carry the derived SLC24A5 (Ala111Thr/rs1426654) allele linked with lighter skin pigmentation, nor any lactase persistence variants, nor apparently any Neanderthal-associated alleles.
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Tukuler
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Ok I'm tired of giving references and getting none in return
Last one from that ol' speculator Pagani (2012)
This putative migration from the Levant to Ethiopia, which is also supported by linguistic evidence, may have carried the derived western Eurasian allele of SLC24A5, which is associated with light skin pigmentation. Although potentially disadvantageous due to the high intensity of UV radiation in the area, the SLC24A5 allele has maintained a substantial frequency in the Semitic- Cushitic populations, perhaps driven by social factors including sexual selection.
posted
ROLLOFF detecting only the latest or mid-point of admixture: same paper you are citing, Pagani et al (2012).
Natufian, PPNB, and Moroccan EN ancient DNA: Lazaridis et al (2016), "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East" Fregel et al (preprint), "Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe"
Horn mtDNA: Kisvild et al (2004), "Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA heritage: tracking gene flow across and around the Gate of Tears" Mikkelsen et al (2012), "Forensic and phylogeographic characterisation of mtDNA lineages from Somalia" Plaster (thesis, 2011), "Variation in Y chromosome, mitochondrial DNA and labels of identity on Ethiopia" Messina et al (2016), "Linking between genetic structure and geographical distance: study of the maternal gene pool in the Ethiopian population" (thanks to beyoku)
Horn autosomal proportions: Pickrell et al (2014), "Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa"; other sources give similar results.
EthioHelix blog (what happened to him?) is a fine source of genetic information on the Horn of Africa, as is Awale's blog Anthromadness. (no endorsement of either's opinions is implied.)
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if we just want to quote authorities at each other how about Hodgson et al (2014), "Early Back-to-Africa migration into the Horn of Africa":
"The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka...."
"...we demonstrate that most non-African ancestry in the HOA cannot be the result of admixture within the last few thousand years, and that the majority of admixture probably occurred prior to the advent of agriculture."
"The highest levels of shared gene identity are between HOA populations and the Levantine Palestinian and the North African Mozabite population samples. Thus, it is more likely that the genetic-geographic HOA-Arabia distance gradient reflects secondary admixture of Arabian migrants into HOA populations already carrying substantial non-African ancestry or already admixed HOA populations sending migrants into Arabian populations."
"A single prehistoric migration of both the Maghrebi and the Ethio-Somali back into Africa is the most parsimonious hypothesis. That is, a common ancestral population migrated into northeast Africa through the Sinai and then split into two, with one branch continuing west across North Africa and the other heading south into the HOA. For the Ethio-Somali, the lowest FST value from the ADMIXTURE estimated ancestral allele frequencies is with the Maghrebi, which is consistent with a common origin hypothesis. In contrast, the Maghrebi component has lower FST values with Arabian, European, and Eurasian ancestral populations than with the Ethio-Somali, which suggests that the Maghrebi diverged most recently from those populations, and might indicate separate back-to-Africa migrations for the Ethio-Somali and the Maghrebi. Unfortunately, the FST estimates alone are not robust enough to distinguish between single or separate back-to-Africa migrations."
but since i think their treatment of the Ethio-Somali and Maghrebi ADMIXTURE components as coherent non-African ancestral streams is fairly bogus, i'd rather not. i would interpret their Ethio-Somali component as a mix of MENA and Nilo-Sahara or Mota-like ancestry carried by Sudanese pastoralists. but as always i could be wrong.
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to return to the Ethiopian men picking up Levantine women 3000 years ago theory:
1) ROLLOFF tells us nothing about earlier admixture events. we know that much earlier admixture *did* occur, producing populations with E-M35 and putatively non-African mtDNA. the question is whether such populations contributed to Ethiopians.
2) *modern* Levantines being slightly closer to the putatively non-African element of Ethiopians than *modern* Yemenis are does not tell us that people must have come from the Levant specifically 3000 years ago. things change in 3000 years. it could also mean the gene flow came from South Arabia but ancient South Arabians were more like modern Levantines.
but the closest modern population in Pagani et al's analysis (see Table S3) is actually *Egyptians*. oh hey.
3) Levantine populations have had substantial amounts of E-M35 from the present back to at least 13 000 years ago. at 100% frequency in our oldest sample. (Arabians also have lots of course.) so when counting uniparental markers, on what basis do you assume your hypothetical Levantine ancestral population possessed no African (i.e. E) Y haplogroups in the first place?
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The question of this • Late Bronze / Early Iron • move of • Levantine women • to Ethiopia remains.
1 Was it via the Red Sea by ship?
2 Was it by land down the Medja Nubian inhabited Red Sea coast?
3 Was it through Egypt and Kush along with Nile?
4 What history, archaeology, or other disciplines are inline with the genetics?
Now in a response to me on what I brought up on Eth mix, I will ignore diversion from that to: 'Pagani didn't mean what she wrote'; an author's caveats negate the detailed results, discussion, and conclusion sections of their report; Paleolithic to Neolithic nrY; etc, assorted strawmans or to anything else avoidance and diversion driven members wish to disruptively pursue.
Any takers on what I'm actually trying to find out? Do I have to scour the archives for the old posts on this? I remember using Fig S3 to back my view global ADMIXTURE at K=2 can confuse African genomes with non-African ones.
Now in a response to me on what I brought up on Eth mix, I will ignore diversion from that to 'Pagani didn't mean what she wrote', an author's caveats negate the detailed results discussion and conclusion sections of their report. Paleolithic to Neolithic nrY, etc, assorted strawmans or to anything else avoidance driven members wish to pursue.
Any takers on what I'm actually trying to find out? Do I have to scour the archives for the old posts on this?
Yes
"The question of this • Late Bronze / Early Iron • move of • Levantine women • to Ethiopia remains."
-which mitochondrial haplogroup that would be of of significant frequency in Ethiopia are you claiming represents a migration of Leventine women into Ethiopia?
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Tukuler
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I'm not claiming anything. I made a statement. It was challenged. I posted geneticist support. I received referenceless speculation. The claim of a ~3k sex biased move to Ethiopia is Pagani's.
Take an hour or two to study Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Examine its supplements. Take notes and analyze. Check it's 107 citations by other genetic reports. It's a wrap. The field overwhelmingly accepts it.
Please. Don't ask me more questions. I asked four questions. Attempt answering them, s'il vous plaît ?
posted
where does Pagani mention sex bias, and why should we ignore everything published since 2012?
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The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
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Tukuler
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Oh. So you didn't even read the Pagani snippets I posted. Since you act like I made it up and it's not in Pagani, go read the article. I'm surprised you ain't even read the article yet deny it. Lol
I'm ignoring your 'ignore everything published since 2012' strawman. Who but a debate loser construes 107 later researchers as stuck in 2012? You're better off checking them for any possible contrary evidence as I suggested several posts ago.
I will not waste my time with strawmans I never posted but are lies attributed to me to win a debate rather than to learn more about Africa, her peoples cultures, and relationships to the folk right next door.
And we went over E-M215 E-M35 E-M123 years before you got here. It's no new revelation.
Debaters bullshitting tactics don't help anyone understand African population structure.
I think the real problem here is accepting African males getting up on non-African females instead of the Euro and Arab perception: Eurasian men walking in and taking Africa's womanhood.
OH this the Deshret forum. For serious discussion gotta take this to some other forum.
posted
Am J Hum Genet. 2004 Nov; 75[5]: 752–770. Published online 2004 Sep 27. doi: 10.1086/425161 PMCID: PMC1182106 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears
Toomas Kivisild,
Haplogroup N Lineages in Ethiopians and Yemenis
Lineages that belong to haplogroup N that cover virtually all mtDNA sequences in western Eurasia [Richards et al. 2000] show substantial frequencies both in the Yemeni [44%] and Ethiopian [31%] mtDNA pools. In this respect, Ethiopians differ explicitly from most other sub-Saharan African populations studied thus far. Within Ethiopia, the frequency of N lineages is significantly higher [P<.05] in samples that originate from its northern territory [48%], which was the center of the Aksum kingdom, than among other Ethiopians, mostly originating from the south-central part of the country [27%]. At the same time, there was no significant difference in the proportions of haplogroup N between the Semitic and Cushitic linguistic groups in our sample—for example, between Amharas and Oromos.
Haplogroup [preHV]1 is by far the most frequent [10.4%] subclade in the Ethiopian N cluster [fig. 2B]. The majority of the Ethiopian [preHV]1 lineages match or derive from founder haplotypes common to Near Eastern, southern Caucasian, and North African populations [Krings et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003b]. Previously, the highest frequency [20.4%] of [preHV]1 lineages was observed in Yemeni Jews [Richards et al. 2003], significantly higher than their frequency in our Yemeni non-Jewish sample [3.4%; P<.01]. This probably reflects strong genetic drift in the founding population of Yemeni Jews. Because [preHV]1 lineages occur in populations of the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe—where African L0-L6 lineages are absent or rare—it is more likely that their presence in East Africa reflects a back-migration from the Near East rather than an in situ origin of [preHV]1 in Ethiopia [Richards et al. 2003]. Nevertheless, we notice that several Ethiopian [preHV]1 lineages, including [1] variants with a transversion at np 16305, [2] HVS-I motif 16126-16309-16362, and [3] HVS-I motif 16126-16172-16184A-16362, were not found in 185 [preHV]1 sequences sampled from >20,000 individuals from Arabia, the Near East, and Europe [Macaulay et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; authors' unpublished data], except for an HVS-I haplotype 16126-16305T-16362 that occurs [12.5%] in Ethiopian Jews [Thomas et al. 2002]. Their elevated frequency and uniform presence among major language groups in Ethiopia [table 1] suggests that these derived lineages may represent a relatively old introgression of lineages to the Ethiopian mtDNA pool from the Near East.
Haplogroup HV1 is represented in Ethiopians by two different HVS-I motifs [fig. 2B]. The first of them, 16067-16274, observed in an Amharan mtDNA, has been reported in populations from the Arabian Peninsula [Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; Richards et al. 2000], southern Egypt, and northern Sudan [Krings et al. 1999]. The other four sequences, present in Tigrais and Oromos, share a common HVS-I motif, 16067-16278-16362, that has not yet been reported in the literature. Two Yemeni HV* samples belong to a cluster of sequences with the characteristic 16220C transversion, observed more frequently in the Caucasus and the Near East [Richards et al. 2000].
When the fact that haplogroup H is the predominant subclade of N in most western Eurasian populations is considered, its frequency in Ethiopians is surprisingly low [0.7%]. Among the three haplogroup H lineages found, one Tigrai carried a characteristic HVS-I transition at np 16218, which has been observed in haplogroup H lineages—mostly in those of Near Eastern origin, but also in two Yemeni H sequences and two Assiut sequences from Egypt [Krings et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000].
Three of the five haplogroup J lineages in Ethiopians share a distinct HVS-I motif, 16069-16126-16193-16300-16309 [J1c], that is characteristic of J sequences in populations from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and North Africa [Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; Richards et al. 2000; Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003]. In East Africa, J1c sequences have been found in one Datoga from Tanzania [Knight et al. 2003] and in one Gurna from Egypt [Stevanovitch et al. 2004]. The other two Ethiopian J sequences, present in Tigrais, belonged to a subclade of J2 that is defined by a transition at np 6671 [Herrnstadt et al. 2002]. Most of the Yemeni J sequences, in contrast, share the combination of 16145 and 16261 mutations in haplogroup J1b, which is a common motif of J lineages in populations from the Near East and all over western Eurasia [Richards et al. 2000].
All Ethiopian and Yemeni haplogroup T sequences clustered with either T1 or T2 subclades, consistent with the classification of all existing European T coding-region sequences [Ingman et al. 2000; McMahon et al. 2000; Finnilä et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Coble et al. 2004]. One Amhara T sequence, however, which harbors a transition at np 14233, characteristic of T2 sequences, lacked the other substitution at np 11812, present in all other Ethiopian and European T2 sequences. The np 11812 substitution was similarly absent in a complete North African T sequence [Maca-Meyer et al. 2001]. The Tigrai T1a sequence matches a Kerma sequence from Nubia [Krings et al. 1999], whereas the Amhara T1b sequence shows a mutation at np 16320 on top of the common founder haplotype in the Near East [Richards et al. 2000]. Five of the six T2 sequences detected among Amhara and Tigrai samples shared a transition at np 16292 that is widespread in the haplogroup T context in Europe, the Near East, and North Africa. However, the two Tigrai T2 sequences share a combination of four downstream HVS-I mutations [fig. 2B] that have not been reported elsewhere.
N1a is a minor mtDNA haplogroup that has been observed at marginal frequencies in European, Near Eastern, and Indian populations [Mountain et al. 1995; Richards et al. 2000]. It occurs at a significant frequency in both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations. Six Ethiopian N1a lineages, restricted to Semitic-speaking subpopulations, show low haplotype diversity and include an exact HVS-I sequence match with a published N1a sequence from Egypt [Krings et al. 1999]. A related sequence, from southern Sudan [Krings et al. 1999], was misclassified as a member of the L1a clade [Salas et al. 2002]. Yemeni N1a sequences, on the other hand, display a high level of haplotype [h=0.89] and nucleotide [ρ=2.75±1] diversity, combined with the highest frequency [6.9%] of this haplogroup reported so far.
Nevertheless, a clear asymmetry between E3b1-M78 and J1-M267 chromosomes is seen—the former are rare or absent in southern Arabia, whereas the latter are relatively frequent. Hence, Ethiopians may have been recipients of the southern Arabian J1-M267 chromosomes but have not been efficient donors of the E3b1-M78 chromosomes to southern Arabia, although East Africans may have carried the latter to Egypt and, farther, to Europe via the Levantine corridor. Furthermore, as already mentioned above, there is a profound difference in J1-M267 frequencies between the Semitic-speaking Amharas, who probably arrived relatively recently from Arabia, and the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, among whom the frequency of J1-M267 chromosomes does not exceed 3% [Cruciani et al. 2004]. Relevant data for other Ethiopian populations and Yemenis are desired for further exploration of this line of arguments.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oh. So you didn't even read the Pagani snippets I posted. Since you act like I made it up and it's not in Pagani, go read the article.
i did read the article, thanks. if it says anything about sex-biased admixture taking place 3000 years ago, please quote it. if you are attributing your own explanation of the uniparental frequencies to Pagani et al, you shouldn't.
i do read a lot of this shit you know, of course i read Pagani, and didn't pull the hypothesis out of my ass without thinking about it first. if it doesn't work out that's fine.
quote:You're better off checking them for any possible contrary evidence as I suggested several posts ago.
i wrote an entire post quoting one of those later papers that cites Pagani et al but disagrees with them, you want me to do it again so you can ignore it some more?
quote:I think the real problem here is accepting African males getting up on non-African females
lol projecting much? not *my* hang-up.
Natufians didn't get their E from Zeus in swan form, that would be those African males getting up on those non-African females. maybe it's especially upsetting if it happened in Ethiopia? Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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Christopher Andrew Plaster The Centre for Genetic Anthropology Department of Genetics Evolution and Environment University College London
Variation in Y chromosome, mitochondrial DNA and labels of identity in Ethiopia
"N clade haplogroups were observed in the Amhara and the Afar at of 34% and 30% total frequencies respectively."
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wikipedia:
The ancient Semitic-speaking Himyarites, who moved from Yemen into northern Ethiopia sometime before 500 BCE, are believed to have been ancestral to the Amhara. They intermarried with the earlier Cushitic-speaking settlers, and gradually spread into the region the Amhara presently inhabit.The Amhara are currently one of the two largest ethnic groups in Ethiopia, along with the Oromo. They are sometimes referred to as "Abyssinians", a broader term that also includes the Tigray people.
The Himyarite kings appear to have abandoned polytheism and converted to Judaism around the year 380, several decades after the conversion of the Ethiopian Kingdom of Aksum to Christianity (340).
Bronze statue of Dhamarʿalīy Yuhbabirr "King of Saba, Dhu Raydan, Hadhramawt and Yaman" (Himyarite Kingdom) 170-180 AD.
Along with the closely related Somali and other adjacent Afro-Asiatic-speaking Muslim peoples, the Afar are also associated with the medieval Adal Sultanate that controlled large parts of the northern Horn of Africa. During its existence, Adal had relations and engaged in trade with other polities in Northeast Africa, the Near East, Europe and South Asia. Many of the historic cities in the Horn region, such as Maduna, Abasa, Berbera, Zeila and Harar, flourished with courtyard houses, mosques, shrines, walled enclosures and cisterns during the kingdom's Golden Age.
The Empire of Aksum at its height extended across portions of present-day Eritrea, northern Ethiopia, Yemen, southern Saudi Arabia, northern Djibouti, and northern Sudan. The capital city of the empire was Aksum, now in northern Ethiopia.
Proto-Tigrayans and Proto-Amharas are believed to be the main ethnicity of the empire of Axum in the first millennium C.E. Their language, in form of Ge'ez, remained the language of later Ethiopian imperial court as well as the Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Capra You just proved you didn't read the Pagani quotes I posted. Go back and reread them. Still don't see it? Quote the post and I'll hi-lite for you.
Agreement with it got nothing to do with whether she wrote it.
Appreciate the contrary Hodgson. At last, something I asked for. Looks like you did wade through the 107 citers.
Weren't you paying attention? We did E-M215 E-M35 E-M78 E-M123 expansion and Ethiopia years ago already. Its only news to you.
Natufians are an African Mushabi Levant Qebbaran protoNeolithic mix just like posited on ES over a decade ago. I last brought it up here.
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
Of course, all of this is Eurocentric nonsense--dressed up in phony pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo.
Genuine scientific theories are founded on terms that are precisely defined[ think, say, of the definition of "mass" in physics]. In this connection the term "caucasoid" is a nonsensical pseudo-scientific term concocted frivolously by a traipsing German MD by the name of Johann Blumenbach. Blumenbach stupidly assumed that the "perfect" skull of some individual found in the Caucasus mountains should sent some kind of standard for human "racial" classification. Sheer stupidity. Anyway, this kind of thinking was way back in the 18th century when it was assumed that malaria, for example, was caused by bad air.
Another example of palpable Eurocentric stupidity is the slick categorization of some languages as "Afro-Asiatic". Before the coinage of "Afro-Asiatic" there were the assumed to exist the distinct language classifications of "Hamitic" and "Semitic"--after the Biblical Ham and Shem. The language of the Ancient Egyptians was classified as Hamitic while Arabic was considered Semitic. In a slick Eurocentric move the 2 language groups were combined into Hamitico-Semitico then into "Afro-Asiatic".
The point is that with the discrediting of the Hamitic hypothesis, "Hamitic" should have become one of the language branches of Africa--in other words, Ancient Egyptian would have become just another African language but Eurocentrism would have none of that--hence the need to concoct the phony language grouping of "Afro-Asiatic". The usual "old wine in new bottles".
Time for a new paradigm shift that would conform better to reality. Just start with discarding the nonsense terms of "caucasoid" and "Afro-Asiatic".
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Whoa. You can't comprehend Pagani so I pulled a Clyde? If you're suggesting dishonesty on my part its time this discussion close. In over 13 years of contributions no one's ever said that because there's no examples of it and there's still no example of it.
quote:Originally posted by capra:
if you are attributing your own explanation of the uniparental frequencies to Pagani et al,
posted
i don't know what i am even supposed to be looking for. which post?
not being psychic i don't know what conversation about M-215 which happened years ago that i wasn't part of you are referring to, so i don't know whether whatever you are talking about comes as a suprise to me or not. care to specify?
you are getting mad that i thought you might have accidentally read your own interpretation into a paper? right after implying i'm misinterpreting history because i have a problem with interracial sex? that's not cool buddy.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lemme hafsum Smith & Cross and I'll get back to you. I will edit this post later.
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
Of course, all of this is Eurocentric nonsense--dressed up in phony pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo.
Genuine scientific theories are founded on terms that are precisely defined[ think, say, of the definition of "mass" in physics]. In this connection the term "caucasoid" is a
I didn't put that quote up for the term "caucasoid". I put it up because it said .... gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.
They are saying most of the Eurasian gene flow occurred predominantly through males. That is haplogroup J of the Arabian peninsula and Levant. Recently analyzed 4,500 yo remains in Ethiopia know an as Mota Man carried E and L ancestry not J. That is suggestive that J came in later with trade and settlements along the coasts and then later the spread of Islam.
Nevertheless there is also a significant admixture of haplogroup N which is female at 31%. This is suggestive of a period when male East Africans were mixing with Arabian peninsula/Levantine females
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posted
LOL. So who are the Wolof, Bambara, Ibo, etc. admixed with? These phony and tendentious studies are carried out only for sly, racist Eurocentric reasons.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: LOL. So who are the Wolof, Bambara, Ibo, etc. admixed with? These phony and tendentious studies are carried out only for sly, racist Eurocentric reasons.
so you think it's a scam, there has been no admixture in Ethiopia?
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posted
"Admixture into and within Sub-Saharan Africa" covers a lot of Africa, including some people from Ghana, but not the Congos or Chad.
"Dispersals and genetic adaptation of Bantu-speaking populations in Africa and North America" is pretty good, but while it has dense sampling of Gabon and Cameroon, plus a few samples from Cote d'Ivoire, Benin, Angola, South Africa, Uganda, and the usual other places, the only Congolese are Mbuti Pygmies.
most Africans are not well-studied. for Ghana specifically there is a nice study on maternal and paternal lineages and clan histories in one village, "The influence of clan structure on the genetic variation in a single Ghanaian village", but that is about small-scale ancestral lineages.
for Chad, "Chad genetic diversity reveals an African history marked by multiple Holocene Eurasian migrations" as the title suggests has a lot of tendentious Eurocentric stuff but disappointingly little about anything else, the lazy bastards.
for the Congos, very little. i recall seeing a conference presentation abstract that involved a bunch of sampling in the DRC but whatever the project was it isn't published yet.
"Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa" is an older one for the tendentious Eurocentric view extended beyond the Horn.
of course the recent "Reconstructing prehistoric African population structure" is the good shit, with ancient South and East African cline, possible Basal Africans in West Africa, and Eurasian showing up in Tanzania 3100 years ago and South Africa 1200 years ago.
for Southern Africa there's lots, notably "Fine-scale human population structure in Southern Africa reflects ecogeographic boundaries", which is mostly about ancient structure in ancestral Khoesan. oh yeah, even better, "Complex ancient genetic structure and cultural transitions in Southern African populations".
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posted
Am skeptical of concepts such as "Eurasian casually being used for African populations. Also skeptical about the pseudo-racial term "sub-Saharan Africa". I mean what exactly is the connection between the Wolofs of Senegal and the Swazis of Swaziland?
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posted
Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
as Pickrell et al explain in "Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa":
quote:when we refer to “west Eurasian ancestry” in “southern Africa” we are using this as a shorthand for the more cumbersome, but more accurate, phrasing of “ancestry most closely related to populations currently living in west Eurasia” in “populations currently living in southern Africa.”
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's no different than the history of Africa. They divide it by Eurovision. Divisions of African History
Post/neo-Colonial era European exploration era Islamic era Roman era Semito-Hamite era
Geneticists are only continuing what their generations passed down to them. Their concern is with themselves in Africa. For the most part Africa as Africa dont move them much at all.
Hence the relentless focus on Eurasian genomes in Africa. I'm glad when they toss us some African genomes of Africa.
Sheet. It's their $$$. They can do what they wanna. But its a tad much screaming a people are admixed knowing it was a late conquest and settlement infusion.
posted
Actually that is fine but we all know that Ethiopians, horners and other Africans first crossed the red sea coast into Arabia.
And we know that most Ethiopians and Horners are not in the least bit white. Some are lighter skinned and those folks are obviously of more recent mixture with outsiders. But overall from Southern Egypt to Kenya most Red Sea and other African populatons maintain a black phenotype. So whatever "Eurasian" mixture occurred it is purely semantic in the sense of labeling DNA strains. It isn't like East Africans or Horners really and truly are Eurasian in any sense of the term, neither are Sudanese or Nubians who have been in Africa for many many thousands of years since before there was a human in Eurasia.
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quote:Actually that is fine but we all know that Ethiopians, horners and other Africans first crossed the red sea coast into Arabia.
And we know that most Ethiopians and Horners are not in the least bit white. Some are lighter skinned and those folks are obviously of more recent mixture with outsiders. But overall from Southern Egypt to Kenya most Red Sea and other African populatons maintain a black phenotype. So whatever "Eurasian" mixture occurred it is purely semantic in the sense of labeling DNA strains. It isn't like East Africans or Horners really and truly are Eurasian in any sense of the term, neither are Sudanese or Nubians who have been in Africa for many many thousands of years since before there was a human in Eurasia.
Language is of importance in all of this . It would be much more accurate to label the populations of West Asia of the Arabian peninsula as Afro-Asiatic but Eurocentric scholarship generally refer to them as "Arab" or "caucasoid". Instead that obviously tendentious scholarship is hell-bent on promoting an euphemistic version of the "Hamitic hypothesis".
In all of this we must note that "Semitic" as a language base has its origins in Ethiopia. This would mean that all the so-called Afro-Asiatic languages are really African languages. Eurocentric scholarship would have none of this however.
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