quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Gosh! What a dramatic 48 hours. Insha Allah Amina prayed istikhara before taking that dramatic step and the end result will be whatever is best for all of them.
Assalamu alaykum Haqikah! I was interested in your comment that “polygamy is less acceptable in the educated class unless under strict islamic guidance” and wondered if you could elaborate on what you mean by this and explain how is this done practically here in Egypt?
You also made some valid points about the legal aspects of Amina’s situation. As I understand it she would have to have a non-Egyptian passport for her daughter to be able to take her out of the country without official permission from the father.
Wa alyakum as salaam Newcomer
Most women from wealthy families grew up in monogamous households and polygamy is not accepted at all. Someone can make an exception under Islam, but it will still depend on how that woman was brought up to interpret the verse, and most of the time she will claim that he cannot treat them equally to discourage taking another wife.
You and I had this discussion before how its only a minority that practice polygamy,less than 4% to be exact. As most women I know would rather die than have her husband take another wife. If more of them accepted it, I'm sure the numbers would be far higher than only 4%.It is probably more common in small rural villages than it is in the higher realms of society, it's almost non-existent. Most men who really love ther wives will not even compromise their relationship in this fashion. The more educated the womn is, the more like she is to read and interpret the qu'ran for herself, and know the legal guidelines to add to her marriage contract to not make it easy for the man to engage in such practice.
So it appears that Amina was not legally married, and her child has a foreign passport, so I guess she is exempt from a lot of legalities concerning parental rights.
She was very strong to leave him so abruptly. I applaud you for taking such a no nonsense stand in the matter.
Thanks for spotting my message; I thought it might have been buried by all the other ones!
I do remember discussing this subject with you before, but it was your comment about polygyny being less acceptable in the educated class unless under strict Islamic guidance, which struck me as it seemed to imply that if it was done under “Islamic guidance” it would be more acceptable, and this was the part I was asking for clarification on. What did you mean about doing it under Islamic guidance? Sorry to labour the point, but I am just trying to understand the practical side of this situation for the 4% of people in Egypt who do practice it (which with the size of the Egyptian population actually amounts to a considerable number of people involved one way and another!) I realize that not all of the attempts will be successful, but some of them are and I am trying to understand, if it is practiced, how it can be done in a more acceptable way.
I do know how much it is disliked by most Muslim women and also many of the reasons why they say they dislike/hate it, and I have my own interpretation as to why there are different perceptions about it in different countries, and I am certainly not intending to advocate it for everyone as I know too many people who do not/have not handled it well to do that. Alternatively I do know many families who have handled it well in different countries and, as it is something that is possible under Islamic law, I am interested in hearing positive ideas about how it can work here in Egypt instead of it causing all the heartache it does for many people.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Haqikah!
Thanks for spotting my message; I thought it might have been buried by all the other ones!
I do remember discussing this subject with you before, but it was your comment about polygyny being less acceptable in the educated class unless under strict Islamic guidance, which struck me as it seemed to imply that if it was done under “Islamic guidance” it would be more acceptable, and this was the part I was asking for clarification on. What did you mean about doing it under Islamic guidance? Sorry to labour the point, but I am just trying to understand the practical side of this situation for the 4% of people in Egypt who do practice it (which with the size of the Egyptian population actually amounts to a considerable number of people involved one way and another!) I realize that not all of the attempts will be successful, but some of them are and I am trying to understand, if it is practiced, how it can be done in a more acceptable way.
I do know how much it is disliked by most Muslim women and also many of the reasons why they say they dislike/hate it, and I have my own interpretation as to why there are different perceptions about it in different countries, and I am certainly not intending to advocate it for everyone as I know too many people who do not/have not handled it well to do that. Alternatively I do know many families who have handled it well in different countries and, as it is something that is possible under Islamic law, I am interested in hearing positive ideas about how it can work here in Egypt instead of it causing all the heartache it does for many people.
Wa alaykum as salaam Newcomer
Yes we did have this discussion before, and I told you before that it is not accepted in educated classes. Even the men don't want more than one wife in certain social classes, it has already cost him dearly to marry the first one. Most know that they can not afford 2 households, and because of this they will not be able to treat them equally. Equally is the word that you seem to be missing. It will not be fair to the first wife who has enjoyed her home to herself to be forced to share it with another woman, that won't happen. So can he buy the second wife a home furnished just like the first wife and divide his time equally between 2 households and still try to live his own life with his own career? Not really, possible, but rare.
Amina has just given the perfect example, she clearly stated that he spent more time with his first wife's kids, so he was not being fair and equitable, he has essentially abused his right to a second wife. With all the time he had for external affairs, and work, and then to find time to be air to both wives, it’s almost impossible, someone will end up feeling neglected, unfortunately.
And those against it will typically use surah 4:3 for their argument against it, "If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship." The first wife with knowledge of this verse will always argue that this is the reason a second wife should not be taken.
I am not in a mood to debate with anyone on how they interpret the verse, but the women I know will always use their understanding of this verse, and so will the men, who are not out to abuse this right. Some men have abused this right, and I don't know many women at all that are advocating pro polygamy because of all the abuse.
There may very well be a positive way for it to work, since it has obviously worked for some. Maybe you should ask the ones that you know who are practicing it, as I don't know anyone personally who does and ask them why they do it. I'm not 100% against it, I just hate to see it being abused, and I personally would never desire to share my husband. We can provide charity work together without allowing anyone else to become a legal part of our household. But that's where I stand on the issue. I will not compromise.
And anyone trying to advocate for it will find themselves a very small minority amongst the 95% of the women against it.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Haqikah!
I do know how much it is disliked by most Muslim women and also many of the reasons why they say they dislike/hate it, and I have my own interpretation as to why there are different perceptions about it in different countries, and I am certainly not intending to advocate it for everyone as I know too many people who do not/have not handled it well to do that. Alternatively I do know many families who have handled it well in different countries and, as it is something that is possible under Islamic law, I am interested in hearing positive ideas about how it can work here in Egypt instead of it causing all the heartache it does for many people.
As I said to my uncle moulana Hussain ...I dont care how many billions of dollars I can get from entering into a poligamus marriage with a very wealthy Arab....ist not gonna happen.You can hit me,cut my flesh off my bones,drag me through hot coals,through acid in my face....I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.I rather marry a popper who's imaan is strong and love me unconditionally.Because i would never do to someone else....what i dont want to be done to me.So you can look at the bright side....quote from the quraan...its not changing my mind!I DONT SHARE>>>PERIOD!!!I accept it as part of my religion but I still have the freedom to choose if I want to enter into a marriage like that or not!I can carry the world on my shoulders but dont ask me to share
Posts: 723 | From: South Africa | Registered: Jun 2004
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Ah well, that's a shame, as your comment made me think that there might be a chance to have a positive discussion here with a woman about the Egyptian situation for a change. It made me hope that you might be able to give me some positive ideas from some of the 1.5+ million Egyptian women who are known to be involved in this situation, as I mentioned that most of the people I know in polygynous marriages are not here!
Although I respect your right not to discuss interpretations of Qur'anic verses, could I just correct your translation? I believe this is a more accurate translation of the verse you were referring to: "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice."
Although I totally agree with you the criteria for polygyny is equal treatment and I also abhor it being abused, I have to beg to differ on your generalization about the Egyptian men, as it appears that there are men in all the different classes who are interested in polygyny!
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Haqikah!
Ah well, that's a shame, as your comment made me think that there might be a chance to have a positive discussion here with a woman about the Egyptian situation for a change. It made me hope that you might be able to give me some positive ideas from some of the 1.5+ million Egyptian women who are known to be involved in this situation, as I mentioned that most of the people I know in polygynous marriages are not here!
Although I respect your right not to discuss interpretations of Qur'anic verses, could I just correct your translation? I believe this is a more accurate translation of the verse you were referring to: "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice."
Although I totally agree with you the criteria for polygyny is equal treatment and I also abhor it being abused, I have to beg to differ on your generalization about the Egyptian men, as it appears that there are men in all the different classes who are interested in polygyny!
Wa alaykum as salaam newcomer
When ever something occurs more than 50 percent of the time, its the general rule, of course there are always 'exceptions' to every rule. This is the case with Amina's spouse who is from an educated class. Polygamy itself is the 'exception' and not the rule since it occurs less than 5% of the time. It would be presumptious of me to claim otherwise.
Regarding how 'you' interpret the verse is up to you, but I read, write, and comprehend classical arabic, the original language of the Qu'ran and I interpret the verses for myself. That's why it's not a debatable sunject for me. T
The main issue I have with women that become second wives, is that often times they are opposed to taking on a third or even 4th wife. It was okay for them to impose on someone's life, but they don't want another party imposing on their life. Which leads me to believe that most often their decisions did not come from Islam, it came from their own selfish reasons, but they like to use islam to justify their own position, attempting to moralize it in the eyes of others. However, I'm not easily convinced by it.
Again, if you want a person to "discuss" this matter with for a change, you should speak with other muslima second wives, and I'm assuming you are a second wife yourself, seeing that you feel so strongly towards it. If you are trying to have a 'discussion' with someone who is opposed to the concept, it will turn out to be more of a debate. And you should not use your teachings for the mere sake of debating on issues you interpret differently. I tend to take my religion more seriously than to use it debate verses that someone else interprets differently from me. These type of incidences occur with new converts who are still trying to learn it. You may want to approach one. I just don't tolerate people making a mockery of my beliefs when their heart is not true. I don't think you're like that at all, I know you're serious, I just wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to debate with others if I were you. No one ever wins a religious debate.
Actually I am not married, which is why this is an issue for me because as a single Muslimah living here in Egypt I get many serious proposals of marriage, as people are always trying to get me married off. Some of the proposals are asking me to be a second wife, some are asking me to be a first wife with the possibility of a co-wife one at some point, and others are monogamous proposals, with one of each of the first two categories currently on the table! That is why I wanted to hear about positive experiences to see how women make it work here, but as I am still unattached at the moment you will gather that I am not taking the subject lightly and haven’t just jumped at the first good opportunity that presented itself!
I too have my own opinions on this subject Islamically and socially, which I know are often different from the majority due to many reasons, and which can also be quite critical of many husbands, first wives, and co-wives too that I only express selectively, as I agree with you this is not a subject that is open for debate with those who have already made their mind up about it.
posted
I have not commented on any of the postings on this lilne until now and I have to say that I fully agree with Shareen and Carleen - Amina's man is a pervert and I am glad that she is safely away from him. Web-cam sex with 40 women most of whom have converted to Islam !!! I hate to think that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because it leads to cyber sex. It is an interesting concept though.
It too would prefer the gigolos at least you get what you see and most of them are there in the flesh not just "wa*king" in front of a camera.
Newcomer: Are you not suspicious of these men with wives and families who are asking you to marry them? I am sure that you are a wonderful person but I am interested to know what the fatal attraction is that has led to so many proposals. I have many too but I know why I receive them.
I don’t know about being suspicious of them because they’re obviously not asking me for my money (lol!) and they can’t be after a visa if they are already married and established, so it must be something else…you would have to ask them that question! But I guess that as there are proportionately not that many unmarried Muslim men in the most suitable age groups for me that it is natural that proposals would also come from men who are already married. For most of them it seems to be something they have thought about doing for a long time and they feel that now is a good time as they are now in a position to support two families, and they think that I would be a suitable candidate.
It does, however, seem to be a universal custom, among practicing Muslims, not to want to see Muslimah’s without a mahram (a Muslim male relative) and so people I know are always recommending me to men they know who are looking for wives, it’s certainly has not been due to any requests on my part.
Thanks for all the emails I received and the moral support given. I am in Antibes, France right now where my sister has a summer house trying to recover from the past week. I still have problems coping with what happened. Friends from Alexandria told me that this man (I refuse calling him my husband any longer) meanwhile has moved back in with his first wife. When they asked about me he pretended he never knew me. I regret all the women who are still to fall with him. I was told that he is still present in the chatroom, telling women that they are the loves of his life. I do not think he will ever stop doing that. Again, thanks for all!!!
Thanks for all the emails I received and the moral support given. I am in Antibes, France right now where my sister has a summer house trying to recover from the past week. I still have problems coping with what happened. Friends from Alexandria told me that this man (I refuse calling him my husband any longer) meanwhile has moved back in with his first wife. When they asked about me he pretended he never knew me. I regret all the women who are still to fall with him. I was told that he is still present in the chatroom, telling women that they are the loves of his life. I do not think he will ever stop doing that. Again, thanks for all!!!
posted
Well, you know what they say... DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt!
What an absolute tosser this guy is. He better hope he doesn't ever bump into me when I'm in Alex, or I'll be forced to do something unspeakable to a part of his anatomy that he likes advertising via webcam.... GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
On a more serious note... best of luck to you Amina, I know you are going through a whole load of heartache right now, but I wish the all best for you and your child, and a bright and happy future.
quote:Originally posted by Amina: Hello everybody,
Thanks for all the emails I received and the moral support given. I am in Antibes, France right now where my sister has a summer house trying to recover from the past week. I still have problems coping with what happened. Friends from Alexandria told me that this man (I refuse calling him my husband any longer) meanwhile has moved back in with his first wife. When they asked about me he pretended he never knew me. I regret all the women who are still to fall with him. I was told that he is still present in the chatroom, telling women that they are the loves of his life. I do not think he will ever stop doing that. Again, thanks for all!!!
Amina, on a positive note, you got rid of the worst in your life although you thought it was the best at the time. It won't be any worse from here, no matter how hard it is now.
posted
A friend told me I should get into this forum and look what they say about my "old" love, the Alexandria surgeon. This guy nearly drove me out of my mind. We met in the chatroom and he made me fall in love with him, promised me a future. Asked me to marry him online and suggested we should have children. Said he had 3 kids already with his Egyptian wife but was about to divorce her as at age 40 she was too old for him to have more children. I was so stupid to marry him online and even converted online and then suddenly he did not write anymore nor answer my messages in the PM. That was 6 weeks ago. Now I know why. It is a slight comfort that I was not the only stupid woman who fell for his sweet words.
Posts: 3 | From: Holland | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I’m curious...how can anyone get married online? And how can you think that you are actually married when you do it like that? I can understand how you could think that you could accept Islam and become a Muslim online as all you actually need to do that is to say the shahadah, if you actually understand it and its implications and truly believe in it that is, but marrying? That beats me!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I'm more curious as to how this chat room and there are literally millions of them out there, somehow know that this is the same doctor, and for the life of me, how did all these women and their friends just somehow connect this chat room with a thread posted in Egyptsearch of all places.
I mean seriously, is someone posting the link to this site in the chat room, is the man a regular there. I mean he can't be using too many aliases, how many surgeons from Alexandria chat online. Just curious.
posted
He is usually in Yahoo Islam Chat rooms, room 8 & 9 were his haunts but can be found in any islam room. main ID was egyptian_surgeon but has MANY MANY others and once you get talking he tells you hes a surgeon from Alex and will show you his website. There is no mistake, he is the same one and yes maybe this link has been posted or some will mention it in the rooms. He uses Quran and Islam in a bad way for cyber sex with women, preys on women looking at Islam or new converts who are hungry for knowledge as they will believe that marriage online CAN be ok as they already hear that you can marry a man in another room if you are not wearing hijab anyway so a chat room marriage will seem to be reasonable logical.I have personally known MANY women that have been caught up by the same man.
------------------ I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ExptinCAI: [B]but, nobody has still answered...what is an online marriage???
He said he would have two male witnesses with him if I was ready to marry him. So we set a date, he had the witnesses and I said yes to the marriage. He said this was valid in islam. I did not know much about islam and thought maybe the marriage is valid. He said we would marry with papers when I was in Alex. I never went there as he stopped writing. A chatroom friend of mine noticed that someone mentioned this website here in the yahoo chat warning everyone about him and saying women should go to ES and see the truth about him. That's what I did yesterday.
quote:Originally posted by Sylvie: [QUOTE]Originally posted by ExptinCAI: [B]but, nobody has still answered...what is an online marriage???
He said he would have two male witnesses with him if I was ready to marry him. So we set a date, he had the witnesses and I said yes to the marriage. He said this was valid in islam. I did not know much about islam and thought maybe the marriage is valid. He said we would marry with papers when I was in Alex. I never went there as he stopped writing. A chatroom friend of mine noticed that someone mentioned this website here in the yahoo chat warning everyone about him and saying women should go to ES and see the truth about him. That's what I did yesterday.
Sylvie- if you're not a muslim yourself, then how can the marriage possibly have any validity in your eyes? It's like saying "I take thee before God" to each other. Well, if you don't believe in God, how can that have any meaning?
And if you studying to be muslim, please do some independent research, and THEN go into chatrooms for further info.
posted
Is it possible in this day and age that women believe anything they are told by a man online?
I think this man is having the fun of his life fooling so many women this way...What a sicko and what an ego trip...
Women SHOULD OPEN THEIR EYES to these types by getting informed from the right sources..their own community sometimes has a few Muslims..Calling an Embassy..Egyptian embassies are everywhere.. and asking for advice is so easy..
posted
ONYO.... sorry to disillusion you.... I'm already married to George Clooney!! We met on Yahoo messenger 2 weeks back, and, after I promised to buy him an internet cafe, he told me I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, (strange, the webcam wasn't working!!) We married the same day, online of course, and I am looking forward to meeting him next week!!! Sometimes he calls himself George, Sometimes he is Mustafa Clooney!! Does he have a middle name Mustafa?? Anyway, girl, get real, he's already mine!!!!
Posts: 4238 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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OK, OK, before someone snatches my boo and I have to scratch her with my freshly painted claws: Keanu Yassir Reeves is ALL MINE!!!!! Posts: 2238 | From: Mother Earth | Registered: Jun 2004
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Richard Mahmoud Gere is my ex.... you're welcome to him!!!! Just give me back my villa and he's all yours!!!!
Posts: 4238 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Samia: ONYO.... sorry to disillusion you.... I'm already married to George Clooney!! We met on Yahoo messenger 2 weeks back, and, after I promised to buy him an internet cafe, he told me I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, (strange, the webcam wasn't working!!) We married the same day, online of course, and I am looking forward to meeting him next week!!! Sometimes he calls himself George, Sometimes he is Mustafa Clooney!! Does he have a middle name Mustafa?? Anyway, girl, get real, he's already mine!!!!
Yes thats the guy...for your info, he did give himself this middle name right after he embraced Islam...YES, George Clooney is in love with me, and we are now living happily ever after...plus im having his baby, so go find yourself another man, coz he's mine!!!! I heard Woody Allen is still available, check him out on MGM, he's really cute
posted
My good friend here just gave you what you deserve. You are so desperate for Egyptian men that you marry them online. And when he says come to me you take the next plane and don't care if he is married to another woman.
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Last night I meet my good friend the surgeon online in the Islam chat room. Beware Brit ladies, he is still suggesting online marriage - to those who are stupid enough to believe him!
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Sorry, Abdul, I do not believe any word you were saying. Your English is toooooo good to be true in meaning you would "work" at the Corniche in Luxor. I believe you are not even located in Egypt or you are in Egypt but earning your money in a more prestigous and qualified job. Maybe you are just another ES member with multiple ID's?????
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Abdul: Last night I meet my good friend the surgeon online in the Islam chat room. Beware Brit ladies, he is still suggesting online marriage - to those who are stupid enough to believe him!
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