posted
Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??
^^A Black American as far as I know- Sasha Shelton.
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution.
^Fair enough. Would the hair also be characterized as a local evolution?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That is a hypothesis that I've had for a while as well-- that extremely arid environments correlate with loose wavy hair. In fact not only is wavy hair found among Saharans but like the Australian aborigines, light colored hair including slight blondism can be found as a juvenile trait among children as well, though not as prominent (brightly colored) as Aussie aboriginal children.
quote:That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
Who gives a sh|t what the Euronuts claim or think?! I don't know about you, but I certainly dont! As for Saharans being distinct from sub-Saharans, how so??! We already know that so-called sub-Saharan populations are continuous with those of the Sahara and even the Mediterranean coasts! I just explained how wavy hair is found as far south as Uganda not to mention the Horn and among Sahelians.
quote:You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Well we've already seen photos of Siwan people. The girls usually have their hairs braided.
The Teda people are the same as the Tubu. I couldn't find any pictures of Tubu/Teda with long hair at least girls and women who don't have their hair covered but here are couple pics of them.
But here is one picture of an Egyptian man from Farafra oasis in the western desrert. You may remember him as the poster 'Maahes' from years back who was making ancient Egyptian movie 'Goddess of the Sun' featuring Halle Berry as Nefertiti.
Here is a Malian girl
Berber
You get the point.
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Whatup Djehuty, thanks. As far as I know, Strouhal did not give a mean for the cross sections he obtained, so there is no way of telling whether it falls in the range of stereotyped African hair. Strouhal doesn't mention how many of the 7 hairs were curly, and how many were wavy, but, but judging by the fact that stereotyped African populations have transverse indices between 10-60%, it seems reasonable that from Strouhals microsopically analysed hairs (again, 7 strands), the curly hairs account for most of the indices that are in his range of 35-65%, and that the wavy hairs (assuming there were more wavy strands than one) account for the ones that scored around 65%.
If we then look at how large the curly componant is, of the total set of hairs, it only amounts to 6/49=12%. Using this line of thinking, then, it seems that 88% of Strouhals Badarian hair has a cross section index of 65% and higher, and falls outside of the range reported for most tropical Africans, but still within the limits of Tropical Africans like Somali's and, as this thread demonstrates, that of contemporary Northern Sudanese.
I take it you've probably read this article about Egyptian hair from Myra's site here. According to the authors, Strouhal's sample produced indices ranging from 35 to 65. Then there were other studies from other experts from samples of the 12th and 18th and 18-25th dynasties. They all produced an average well within the African range.
quote:"Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture."
Exactly what I'm saying. I have trouble understanding why Truthcentric is impressed by the false notion that this information can be used to suggest that the Nubians with straight and wavy hair were mulattoes, or that proponents that do, are worth worrying about. North Africans already occupy a mulatto position, cranio-facially. If those Nubians were mulattoes, we'd expect them to plot among the E-Series and Maghrebian series, and they obviously don't.
Agreed, and let's not forget about the Bilma of Uganda and perhaps other people in that region who look stereotypically 'Bantu' yet still have wavy hair! This along with wavy hair being found amongst black aboriginals in Eurasia make it quite clear that such a trait is very ancient and has absolutely nothing to do with cold adaptation!
quote:To Truth centric: Proto berbers arise from the same source as the Nubians discussed here, why did their transformation to mulattoes bring about a change in their cranio-facial structure and skin color, but not in straight haired Ancient Northern Sudanese?
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution. I don't see how someone can sloppily throw that fact out of the window, or act like it isn't there, simply because of this new find. Remember Keita's seriation of population along the x axis of his cranial plot? He said all cranial series, from the Romano-british to the Gabonese series (and everything in between), are seriated in a manner that agrees roughly with their geographical latitude. This obviously means that Naqada and Kerma, who were a part of that study, look cranially like what is predicted from their latitute, and hence, their physique cannot be explained by admixture:
A study of Howells’ (1973) results by Guglielmino-Matessi et al. (1979) demonstrates significant climatic (mainly temperature) correlations with the variables strongly associated with the first discriminant function.These variables overlap with the important ones observed here. Inspection of Howells’ plot of discriminant Function I versus I1 reveals a seriation of groups along I that corresponds to that obtained here: geographical groups from cold to tropical areas, with the second function, as in this study, separating the groups within these broad regions. The “E” series locates in an intermediate position to tropical African and European series. An Analysis of Crania From Tell-Duweir Using Multiple Discriminant Functions -S.O.Y. KEITA
Yes it makes perfect sense from a evolutionary biological point.
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: the source of this picture is Mike111, "real"history.com
in the section entitled "The True Negro"
the original source is not given. Is the man purely of African descent, we don't know. Is his hair in it's natural state? We don't know. Is there a tribe of people who look like him and have this hair? No
this one photo is not solid evidence. Also Sudan is about 40% Arab, 2% other foreigners
.
Actually that picture was originally presented to this forum by KING in one of his African people picture spam threads on Sudan.
We don't know if the man is purely African though the same can be said about a Sudanese or any other African whose hair is not loose but tight and kinky, in fact many Arabic speaking tribes actually have kinky hair!! Again, this all goes back to the point that such hair texture has NOTHING to do with foreign ancestry as such hair is found among rural inland peoples of the Horn as well as the Bilma of Uganda! Also by Sudan being 40% Arab, I take it you mean ethnically which says nothing about actual ancestry, lying worm!
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: "Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??"
^^A Black American as far as I know- Sasha Shelton.
Okay. I'll be sure to look her up. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, this all goes back to the point that such hair texture has NOTHING to do with foreign ancestry as such hair is found among rural inland peoples of the Horn as well as the Bilma of Uganda! Also by Sudan being 40% Arab, I take it you mean ethnically which says nothing about actual ancestry,queen[/QB]
I wonder if you would endorse the statement:
"hair type has nothing to do with climate"
I don't expect an answer. You will probably wait to see what somebody else says and then twirl your baton
Genetic heterogeneity among the Negroid and Arab tribes of the Sudan.
Tay JS, Saha N.
Department of Paediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Singapore.
Genetic distance analysis was carried out among seven tribes of the Sudan comprising three Negroid (Nuba, Fur, and Nilotes) and four Arab tribes (Beja, Gaalin, Hawazma, and Messeria) on the basis of six polymorphic loci (ABO and Rhesus blood groups; haemoglobin and red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; serum haptoglobin and transferrin polymorphisms) controlling 21 alleles and compared with the Arab and Negroid populations in neighbouring countries. The Nuba and Nilotes have been found to have Negroid genetic characteristics, while the Fur are intermediate between the Arabs and Negroids. The Beja and Gaalin tribes have more pronounced Arab genetic characteristics than the Hawazma and Messeria, who have a great deal of Negroid admixture.
PMID: 3414791 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
____________________________________________________ Some blood genetic markers of the Nuba and Hawazma tribes of western Sudan.
Bayoumi RA, Saha N.
Two hundred eighty subjects comprising 112 Nuba and 168 Hawazma of the Sudan were tested for the distribution of hemoglobins, eight red cell enzymes, and four serum proteins. The Nuba, the indigenous negroid tribe, had no HbS, HbO-Arab, or GdB(Khartoum) compared to the Hawazma tribe of Negro-Arab descent. The gene frequencies of the above polymorphic systems in the latter were as follows: HbS, 0.13; HbO-Arab, 0.01; GdB(Khartoum), 0.03. The frequency of GdA was higher in the Hawazma than in the Nuba. A high frequency of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency and HpO was present in both the tribes. Essentially similar gene frequencies of Hp1, TfD, PGDC, pC, and PGM1 were observed in both Nuba and Hawazma. The average heterozygosity at five polymorphic loci was the same (0.23) in both the tribes. The above results agree with the social practice whereby people of mixed Hawazma and Nuba descent are considered members of the Hawazma tribe and confirm that racial admixture between the two groups can be seen as a process of gene flow from the Nuba to the Hawazma, even though the Nuba are the indigenous group, while the Hawazma are the new settlers.
PMID: 3475983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
_____________________________________________________ The inter- and intra-tribal distribution of red cell G6PD phenotypes in Sudan.
Saha N, Samuel AP, Omer A, Hoffbrand AV.
1,416 males and 564 female subjects from four Negroid and five Arab tribes and a group of mixed tribes of the Sudan were investigated for the phenotypic distribution of red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase by starch gel electrophoresis. In general, the tribes of Negroid origin had higher frequency of GdA compared to the tribes of Arab ancestry. However, the Nilotes showed a lower frequency of GdA allele and the Mahass tribe claiming an Arab origin had a higher frequency of GdA. The immigrant groups from the neighbouring African countries also had a higher frequency of GdA. GdB (Khartoum) was present in low frequencies in both the Arab and Negroid tribes. A great deal of intratribal variation in the phenotypic distribution of G6PD was observed in the Nuba and Gaali tribes from different localities.
Some blood genetic characteristics of several Sudanese tribes.
Saha N, el Seikh FS.
The distribution of ABO and Rhesus blood groups, serum haptoglobin, and transferrin; red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase and acid phosphatase; and hemoglobin was studied among the two aboriginal negroid tribes (Nuba and Fur); the Nilotic tribe; five tribes of Arab ancestory; and a mixed group of other minor tribes of Arab origin. The Nilotic and Nuba tribes were genetically quite distinct from the rest, with lower R1, R2, and r in the Rhesus system and low HbS and Gd-. The Arab tribes had a genetic structure which was intermediate between that of the original negroid population of the Sudan and the Arabs to the north. However, some of the Arab tribes had special genetical characteristics, e.g., Messeria had high TfD1; both Messeria and Hawazma had high HbS and Gd-, while GdA was higher only in the Hawazma. The Gaalin had very low HbS, Ro, GdA, and Gd-, suggestive of less negroid admixture compared to Messeria and Hawazma. The Fur, though an aboriginal negroid tribe, had genetic characteristics similar to Arabs.
PMID: 3113266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:^Fair enough. Would the hair also be characterized as a local evolution?
Already made my views widely known on that point. This exchange, among others, answers your question:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: you do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
^Brace makes the following point:
quote: An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341, but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions.
To make it apply to our situation, change the words: ''genes for nose and face'', to ''genes for straighter hair'', so the sentence reads:
but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for hair form but none for skin color or limb proportions
quote:I take it you've probably read this article about Egyptian hair from Myra's site here. According to the authors, Strouhal's sample produced indices ranging from 35 to 65.
Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^I'm not in it to know all the indices of each specific hair strand, I could care less. The only thing I wanted to demonstrate with this thread is that groups directly below the 1st cataract and Egyptians cluster on all scientifically discernable ways, and that wavy and straight haired Egyptians aren't an exception, or a marker of admixture that separates Egyptians from their direct neighbors to the south, as Mathilda tried to insinuate with this article:
The more appropriate contemporary sister populations can - and should - be used as a comparative population
Nobody has to buy this bullshit either:
quote:The reference to certain pharaohs resembling the Kushite Beja comes from the X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies, by Wente et al (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). This observation came from a study of the late Dynasty XVII royal mummies, particularly Seqenenre Ta'aa's mummy. If you look at this mummy, he has tightly curled hair, and along with the other royals of late Dynasty XVIII-Early Dynasty XVIII, they show marked prognatism in the upper jaw, with many exhibiting a bad case of "buck teeth". This, plus the occurence of Beja names in the Dynasty XVII tombs at El-Qab, led the authors to conclude that there may have been links between the Medja mercenaries so common in the armies of this period, and the royals in this family. However, after Amenhotep I, the male line died out, and Thutmose I brought new blood into the old royal line. So, the comment about the resemblance of the royals to the Medja applies only to the late Dynasty XVII and early Dynasty XVIII rulers starting with Tety-sheri and Senakhtenre of Dynasty XVII.
So, this is not a false story, but is based upopn the observation and study of the mummies of this group of royals.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
^Here Yurco attempts to associate tightly curled hair (among other things) as a marker that can be used consistently to distinquish between Nubians and Egyptians.
Or this:
quote:“The physical features and hair of his properly mummified body make it certain that Maiherpri was of Nubian origin. He is the only known Nubian to be buried in this exclusive royal cemetery, and his position was of a valued servant…burial items included… a copy of the Book of the Dead in which he appears as the dark-skinned deceased.” (“Historical Dictionary Of Ancient And Medieval Nubia" Richard Lobban 2004)
Nor does anyone have to put up with this:
quote:“Hair was predominately used to construct the wigs and false braids which served as items of daily and funerary attire throughout the Pharaonic period (Fletcher 1995). The hair employed for this purpose was specifically human hair, and in almost every case can be identified as cynotrichous (Caucasian) rather than heliotrichous (Negroid) (Hrdy 1978; Titlbachova and Titlbach 1977; Brunton 1937; el-Tatrawi 1935).” (“Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology" Paul Nicholson, Ian Shaw 2000)
Note that cynotrichous means wavy, not straight, and that it agrees with the hair form that seems to have been predominant among Egyptians and Northern Sudanese. The wigs should be considered as made out of indigenous hair first, before attempts are made to look outside of the Nile Valley.
It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
If people want to use hair to demonstrate Eurasian diffusion into Africa, they'll have to reinforce their hair data with osteological data a convincing case.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: I wonder if you would endorse the statement:
"hair type has nothing to do with climate"
I don't expect an answer. You will probably wait to see what somebody else says and then twirl your baton
You assume wrong as usual, lying worm. How many times must I tell you just because I agree with others does not make me a cheerleader, and you obviously have bad comprehensions since I specifically stated hair type does correlate with climate!
quote: Genetic heterogeneity among the Negroid and Arab tribes of the Sudan.
Tay JS, Saha N.
Department of Paediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Singapore.
Genetic distance analysis was carried out among seven tribes of the Sudan comprising three Negroid (Nuba, Fur, and Nilotes) and four Arab tribes (Beja, Gaalin, Hawazma, and Messeria) on the basis of six polymorphic loci (ABO and Rhesus blood groups; haemoglobin and red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; serum haptoglobin and transferrin polymorphisms) controlling 21 alleles and compared with the Arab and Negroid populations in neighbouring countries. The Nuba and Nilotes have been found to have Negroid genetic characteristics, while the Fur are intermediate between the Arabs and Negroids. The Beja and Gaalin tribes have more pronounced Arab genetic characteristics than the Hawazma and Messeria, who have a great deal of Negroid admixture.
PMID: 3414791 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
____________________________________________________ Some blood genetic markers of the Nuba and Hawazma tribes of western Sudan.
Bayoumi RA, Saha N.
Two hundred eighty subjects comprising 112 Nuba and 168 Hawazma of the Sudan were tested for the distribution of hemoglobins, eight red cell enzymes, and four serum proteins. The Nuba, the indigenous negroid tribe, had no HbS, HbO-Arab, or GdB(Khartoum) compared to the Hawazma tribe of Negro-Arab descent. The gene frequencies of the above polymorphic systems in the latter were as follows: HbS, 0.13; HbO-Arab, 0.01; GdB(Khartoum), 0.03. The frequency of GdA was higher in the Hawazma than in the Nuba. A high frequency of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency and HpO was present in both the tribes. Essentially similar gene frequencies of Hp1, TfD, PGDC, pC, and PGM1 were observed in both Nuba and Hawazma. The average heterozygosity at five polymorphic loci was the same (0.23) in both the tribes. The above results agree with the social practice whereby people of mixed Hawazma and Nuba descent are considered members of the Hawazma tribe and confirm that racial admixture between the two groups can be seen as a process of gene flow from the Nuba to the Hawazma, even though the Nuba are the indigenous group, while the Hawazma are the new settlers.
PMID: 3475983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
_____________________________________________________ The inter- and intra-tribal distribution of red cell G6PD phenotypes in Sudan.
Saha N, Samuel AP, Omer A, Hoffbrand AV.
1,416 males and 564 female subjects from four Negroid and five Arab tribes and a group of mixed tribes of the Sudan were investigated for the phenotypic distribution of red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase by starch gel electrophoresis. In general, the tribes of Negroid origin had higher frequency of GdA compared to the tribes of Arab ancestry. However, the Nilotes showed a lower frequency of GdA allele and the Mahass tribe claiming an Arab origin had a higher frequency of GdA. The immigrant groups from the neighbouring African countries also had a higher frequency of GdA. GdB (Khartoum) was present in low frequencies in both the Arab and Negroid tribes. A great deal of intratribal variation in the phenotypic distribution of G6PD was observed in the Nuba and Gaali tribes from different localities.
Some blood genetic characteristics of several Sudanese tribes.
Saha N, el Seikh FS.
The distribution of ABO and Rhesus blood groups, serum haptoglobin, and transferrin; red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase and acid phosphatase; and hemoglobin was studied among the two aboriginal negroid tribes (Nuba and Fur); the Nilotic tribe; five tribes of Arab ancestory; and a mixed group of other minor tribes of Arab origin. The Nilotic and Nuba tribes were genetically quite distinct from the rest, with lower R1, R2, and r in the Rhesus system and low HbS and Gd-. The Arab tribes had a genetic structure which was intermediate between that of the original negroid population of the Sudan and the Arabs to the north. However, some of the Arab tribes had special genetical characteristics, e.g., Messeria had high TfD1; both Messeria and Hawazma had high HbS and Gd-, while GdA was higher only in the Hawazma. The Gaalin had very low HbS, Ro, GdA, and Gd-, suggestive of less negroid admixture compared to Messeria and Hawazma. The Fur, though an aboriginal negroid tribe, had genetic characteristics similar to Arabs.
PMID: 3113266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
^ Those sources were debunked in this forum years ago, dummy! First of all blood factors are not an accurate indicator especially since African prossess the greatest diversity of blood factors. Second, they obviously fail epically in using debunk racial terminology like "negroid"! The first source is mistaken for calling the Beja an "Arab" tribe when they are obviously NOT and don't even speak Arabic as their primary language let alone claim Arab descent! sources even go to show that some tribes claiming 'Arab' identity are actually "negroid" in their categorized affinities. Your sources pretty much suggest that so-called 'Arab' and other northern Sudanese peoples possess greater affinity with people farther north as in EGYPT! You realize that southern Egyptians like Sa'idi do NOT ethnically consider themselves 'Arab' even though they speak Arabic!
Keep wriggling! Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
I understand now. So you were talking about the data not only from Strouhal but the other scientists. I concur that it's not necessary to use the index of each and every hair follicle. The point still stands that loose hair is indigenous and very much African!
quote: I'm not in it to know all the indices of each specific hair strand, I could care less. The only thing I wanted to demonstrate with this thread is that groups directly below the 1st cataract and Egyptians cluster on all scientifically discernable ways, and that wavy and straight haired Egyptians aren't an exception, or a marker of admixture that separates Egyptians from their direct neighbors to the south, as Mathilda tried to insinuate with this article: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/mummies-and-mummy-hair-from-ancient-egypt/
The more appropriate contemporary sister populations can - and should - be used as a comparative population
Mathilda like Dienekes is just another Eurocentric propagandist. It's a shame the disinformation she spreads on the net which is why the only solution would be to call her out and others like her. I have only read a few of her pages years ago to get the gist of who she is but afte that avoided her blog.
quote:Nobody has to buy this bullshit either:
The reference to certain pharaohs resembling the Kushite Beja comes from the X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies, by Wente et al (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). This observation came from a study of the late Dynasty XVII royal mummies, particularly Seqenenre Ta'aa's mummy. If you look at this mummy, he has tightly curled hair, and along with the other royals of late Dynasty XVIII-Early Dynasty XVIII, they show marked prognatism in the upper jaw, with many exhibiting a bad case of "buck teeth". This, plus the occurence of Beja names in the Dynasty XVII tombs at El-Qab, led the authors to conclude that there may have been links between the Medja mercenaries so common in the armies of this period, and the royals in this family. However, after Amenhotep I, the male line died out, and Thutmose I brought new blood into the old royal line. So, the comment about the resemblance of the royals to the Medja applies only to the late Dynasty XVII and early Dynasty XVIII rulers starting with Tety-sheri and Senakhtenre of Dynasty XVII.
So, this is not a false story, but is based upopn the observation and study of the mummies of this group of royals.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
^Here Yurco attempts to associate tightly curled hair (among other things) as a marker that can be used consistently to distinquish between Nubians and Egyptians.
Yes. It's strange how Yurco even goes to admit that Egyptians were black yet fails to connect them with Nubians until one looks very black(?)!!
quote:Or this:
“The physical features and hair of his properly mummified body make it certain that Maiherpri was of Nubian origin. He is the only known Nubian to be buried in this exclusive royal cemetery, and his position was of a valued servant…burial items included… a copy of the Book of the Dead in which he appears as the dark-skinned deceased.” (“Historical Dictionary Of Ancient And Medieval Nubia" Richard Lobban 2004)
Are they serious?! This is definitely erroneous and I dare say racist! The only reason why Maiherpri was interred in an exclusive royal cemetary was because he WAS a royal!! He was considered son of the pharaoh and thus a Prince of Egypt and not merely a "valued servant". I painstakingly explained this in other threads!!
quote:Nor does anyone have to put up with this:
“Hair was predominately used to construct the wigs and false braids which served as items of daily and funerary attire throughout the Pharaonic period (Fletcher 1995). The hair employed for this purpose was specifically human hair, and in almost every case can be identified as cynotrichous (Caucasian) rather than heliotrichous (Negroid) (Hrdy 1978; Titlbachova and Titlbach 1977; Brunton 1937; el-Tatrawi 1935).” (“Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology" Paul Nicholson, Ian Shaw 2000)
Not that cynotrichous means wavy, not straight, and that it agrees with the hair form that seems to have been predominant among Egyptians and Northern Sudanese. The wigs should be considered as made out of indigenous hair first, before attempts are made to look outside of the Nile Valley.
Actually the literal translation of 'cynotrichous' is *DOG*-hair! In other words they compare so-called 'caucasian' hair to that of dogs! LOL Of course the authors find the hair to be indigenous, but they assume these were indigenous "caucasians" is the problem. The source is also inaccurate since apparently there were many wigs made from heliotrichous hair as well. Or maybe these Amun priest afro wigs are some sort of exception.
quote:It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
I don't know where you got this idea that I support such Euronut nonsense!! I clearly acknowledge that such type hair is indigenous to Africa and can be found as far south as Uganda for Godsakes! I also made it pretty clear that I believe the source of such hair forms among Egyptians can be found right in the Sahara!!
quote:The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
Of course! 'Horners' are definitely not the exception but quite part of a norm that is grossly understated!
quote:If people want to use hair to demonstrate Eurasian diffusion into Africa, they'll have to reinforce their hair data with osteological data a convincing case.
Yes, which is why I've always went by Explorer's theory that such forms are very prehistoric and very well have originated in Africa during the paleolithic among early modern humans (in Africa) for it to be associated with OOA Eurasian populations as well as those populations indigenous to Africa!!
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
^Good idea.
Here are the specific pages, they may prove usefull:
The table I presented on the 1st page includes the burial nrs. You can use those to quicky identify the quotes that desribe hair, on each of the listed pages.
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WOW thanks Kalonji, useful stuff man!!
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range: only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....." Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa (1975)
If Africans possess tremendous diversity in stature, cranio-facial features, and even complexions, why not hair?! We know that tightly coiled (heliotrichous) or 'kinky' type hair is the most common type in Sub-Sahara, enough to be viewed as the stereotypical African hair, yet kinky hair is not the extreme for tight coiled hair but rather approaches it. The true extreme of tight follicle coiling is 'spiral-tuft' which is found among the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa though it is also found among certain aboriginal groups in the Pacific as well. Hair that is looser than kinky hair is tightly curled, and looser than that is loose curls. Even looser hair is wavy, and of course after that comes straight hair. Again my point is Africans possess tremendous genetic diversity that is reflected in their rather broad range of statures, physiques, and especially facial traits, so how come the same can't be for hair. I find it rather interesting how you have those Africans in one extreme with spiral-tuft hair in southern Africa and then Africans in the other extreme with wavy or straight hair in northern Africa. NO Eurasian or caca-soid input required!!
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
quote: Originally posted by Djehuty: I don't know where you got this idea that I support such Euronut nonsense!! I clearly acknowledge that such type hair is indigenous to Africa and can be found as far south as Uganda for Godsakes! I also made it pretty clear that I believe the source of such hair forms among Egyptians can be found right in the Sahara!!
I know about your position on the Bilma and Kanuri, but for some reason, when it comes to the Nile Valley, there seems to be this huge attempt by people who support an African origin of AE, to try to force those hairs into a range where some of it clearly does not belong. Instead of raising the bar of what African hair is capable of expressing, they rather try to force Egyptian and Nubian hair into the old stereotyped construct, just to be on the safe side. The article ''hanging in the hair'' is just a symptom of this tendency, some people here also seem to drool over Herodotus' description of AE hair, as whooly, which is only partly supported by examinations of mummy hair.
quote: Originally posted by Djehuty: If Africans possess tremendous diversity in stature, cranio-facial features, and even complexions, why not hair?! We know that tightly coiled (heliotrichous) or 'kinky' type hair is the most common type in Sub-Sahara, enough to be viewed as the stereotypical African hair, yet kinky hair is not the extreme for tight coiled hair but rather approaches it. The true extreme of tight follicle coiling is 'spiral-tuft' which is found among the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa though it is also found among certain aboriginal groups in the Pacific as well. Hair that is looser than kinky hair is tightly curled, and looser than that is loose curls. Even looser hair is wavy, and of course after that comes straight hair.
You make a great point; even when we speak about ''stereotyped African hair'', it implies that we're talking about one type of hair form, that is then readily contrastable, or distinctly different from wavy hair, when in realty, we're just dealing with a continuum. The question is asked, if wavy/straight hair is native to Africa, why do most Sub Saharan Africans have the same hair?
In all actuality, ''stereotyped African hair'', which is erroneously seen as consisting of a single type, covers 60% of all possible cross sections (0-60%), and since cross section and hair form are heavly correlated, this should as you've mentioned, be manifested in many hair appearances, and it does.
This range of 60% is without taking Somali and Ancient Nubian hair in account. Look at the following for example (note the indices of the first two quotes use indexes that look at cross section as the percentage of maximum diameter relative to minimun diameter, rather than the other way around, this produces indices above 100%, eg, Piedmont hair cross sections have a maximum diameter of 136%, relative to its minimum diameter. The other way of pronoucing the Piedmont average cross section index, ie, minimum diameter relative to max. diameter, would be 64%):
quote:Hair of European origin was found to be oval in cross section. Within this ethnic group the ellipticity index increased in the order Piedmont hair (1.36), light brown European hair (1.46), and finally dark brown European hair (1.52). African-American hair fiber had twisted ribbon shapes, which in cross section appeared as flattened or curved ovals. The average ellipticity index for the African hair was found to be 1.6.
quote:The variations in the ellipticity indices found in our study are in good agreement with the general trend reported in the literature (13,14). The hair of Asian background is generally reported to be the closest to having a circular cross section, with an ellipticity index around 1.25, oval European hair having a ratio of 1.35, and African-American hair, with the greatest deviation from circularity, having an average ellipticity index of 1.75. We note that the average ellipticity index of 1.6 obtained in our study for African hair is at the low end of the wide range of ellipticity indices (1.6-1.9) reported in the literature.
Note that even these authors don't seem to have their facts totally straight, as all the cross sections they report seem lower than reported elsewhere (they have dark brown Euro hair inside the African range as well). Their range of African hair (10/40%) certainly doesnt cover the full spectrum:
quote:Asian hair has the greatest fibre diameter and exhibits a circular sectional profile with a mean ellipticity of approximately 90%, giving it an almost fully circular profile. In contrast, African hair exhibits high inter-individual variability with regard to diameter but also with respect to the degree of ellipticity of the hair fibre cross-section. The mean ellipticity value is closer to 60%, although there is also much variability along the length of the hair fibres.
-Hair in Toxicology - An Important Bio-Monitor
This makes the question of whether African climates are capaple of producing more than one hair form, fundamentally assumptive, as ''stereotyped hair'', is - in terms of hair form and cross secton at least - way more varied than the hair of light-skinned Eurasians, so how could there be a question of whether African climates can select for more straighter hair?
Paradoxically, Eurasian hair is given two categories, despite being much less variable (consisting of much less than 35%, as hair cross sections cannot be perfectly round), and African hair, only one: heliotrichous.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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This is painful watching these afrocentrists come to grips with their whiteness, or lack of.lol
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
Go do something you rarely do: read, and stop your rather odd habit of quoting people who don't support you, in any way, shape or form, for support. The same hair forms are also reported for the craniometrically morphologically more ''Negroid'' X group and Meroitic era Kushites. This is relayed in the chart I posted.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: This is painful watching these afrocentrists come to grips with their whiteness, or lack of.lol
Got any scientific data to counter what has been posted thusfar? Oops, silly me, of course you don't.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: WOW thanks Kalonji, useful stuff man!!
It's drenched with outdated terms, methods and interpretations, but yes, very useful if one is capable of filtering the gold out of the mud, so to speak.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
LOL, you puck'n troll, stop crawling around and get to it: tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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First, the term "wavy" also has to be qualified here. Second, i'm sure in the time this was written by Elliot Smith the effects of the chemicals and mummification and chemical processes after death on hair wasn't understood.
It probably isn't a true picture of the characteristics of Nubian hair previous to mummification in the early periods. Otherwise most Ethiopians and Nubians would have "wavy" hair.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That is a hypothesis that I've had for a while as well-- that extremely arid environments correlate with loose wavy hair. In fact not only is wavy hair found among Saharans but like the Australian aborigines, light colored hair including slight blondism can be found as a juvenile trait among children as well, though not as prominent (brightly colored) as Aussie aboriginal children.
quote:That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
Who gives a sh|t what the Euronuts claim or think?! I don't know about you, but I certainly dont! As for Saharans being distinct from sub-Saharans, how so??! We already know that so-called sub-Saharan populations are continuous with those of the Sahara and even the Mediterranean coasts! I just explained how wavy hair is found as far south as Uganda not to mention the Horn and among Sahelians.
quote:You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Well we've already seen photos of Siwan people. The girls usually have their hairs braided.
The Teda people are the same as the Tubu. I couldn't find any pictures of Tubu/Teda with long hair at least girls and women who don't have their hair covered but here are couple pics of them.
But here is one picture of an Egyptian man from Farafra oasis in the western desrert. You may remember him as the poster 'Maahes' from years back who was making ancient Egyptian movie 'Goddess of the Sun' featuring Halle Berry as Nefertiti.
H
Interesting, but this is what black hair looks like when it has a chemical relaxer on. lol!
I wonder whatever happened to that movie. Diana Ross's daughter might have been a better candidate though.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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are you saying Africans are not diverse enough for Rameses to have had straight hair?
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: are you saying Africans are not diverse enough for Rameses to have had straight hair?
Not only was he straight-wavy haired but he was also a redhead.
Negroids don't have straight hair let alone ginger/red hair.
Those features are Caucasoid.
Lol. I wonder if these afronuts are now going to spend hours on google images trying to find images of a ginger haired negro in attempt to refute me. Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:First, the term "wavy" also has to be qualified here.
It already is qualified, clearly, when it is accompanied with descriptions such as ''long and flowing''. There is enough space in between ''peppercorn'', ''curly'', ''wavy'', ''straight'', to know we're dealing with the real thing.
quote:Second, i'm sure in the time this was written by Elliot Smith the effects of the chemicals and mummification and chemical processes after death on hair wasn't understood.
What are the ''effects of mummification'', and what makes you think all those mummies were purposefully mummified? The predynastic hairs seem to be the ''straightest'' of the bunch, judging by the lesser fequencies of anything curlier than wavy and straight.
Are you suggesting that predynastic Nubians were practicing mummification in a correspondingly widespread manner, that can '0some sort of straightener would require? Or that mummification was the most intense in that period, and died down when the dynastic Egyptians were practicing it across the board?
quote:It probably isn't a true picture of the characteristics of Nubian hair previous to mummification in the early periods. Otherwise most Ethiopians and Nubians would have "wavy" hair.
I have no idea what Ethiopians have to do with this, maybe you can explain. I'm not going to speak out about so called modern Nubians, and their hair, because other than the pan grave Nubians, I have heard of no other archaeological complex that can be identified with any of the modern Sudanese groups.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
LOL, you puck'n troll, stop crawling around and get to it: tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science.
Swenet, pay no attention to the Simpleminded one. She's just upset that your thread and the data therein shatter and obliterate the claims of her mistress Mathilda and other Euronut pseudo-academics! Now the Simpleton rants about "Sumerians" even though we've shown her in multiple threads that Nile Valley civilization is indigenous to the Nile Valley which is something even predominantly white mainstream Egyptology agrees. She is fertilizer. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
[/QUOTE]
Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
There were BLEMMYES too in lower nubia. kushites from ever book i read had kinky hair while red noba and other nubians in lower nubia had varied hair forms and african features more closer to upper egyptians,of course they were african features,so euronuts lose either way.
It seems these hair studies or lot of studies dealing with head shapes etc is focus more on lower nubia.
IF you look at these studies of the meroitic period and see the location of what parts of nubia is the focus in these studies is lower nubia.
Every study i see a euronut trys to make a point and make nubians non- black is from lower nubia AND THEY TRY to say this was all nubia,and it's clear it's not.
Lower nubia is a abit of a different case then the rest of nubia,so we must be careful not to have lower nubia represent all of nubia,because it does not.
Let's make this simple and cut the bullcrap.
It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
So i will stick TO the facts that is well known FROM books from well known good scholars not the internet.
Greeks and others make this very clear while lower nubia before the kushite invasions had types more closer to blacks of upper egypt.
Modern scholars makes very this clear too.
In fact most kushites lived in southern nubia closer to central sudan.
MORE studies need to be done there but lower nubia is just easier to get to or study more so right now and historians will tell you that.
Lower nubia was conquered many more times then any other place in nubia as well if you get my point.
It's clear lower nubia had a population that was much smaller then other regions of nubia and it was more varied with different populations. Just saying.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: all I hear is crickets
Yeh, whenever you're asked to prove your holocau$t story or when evergreen asks you to specify your "intermediate" features. Crickets indeed. lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
How do these scientists designate the term "wavy" and "curly?"
Kinky hair can also be wavy and curly and there are millions of kinky haired peoples in Africa who have curly, wavy, long and flowing hair.
Second, the authors describing the samples are prejudice for having to additionally throw in the term "typical." A term relative to the persons perspective for its existence.
What other information has been considered besides their subjective report of the hair structure on the samples given i.e. microscopic characteristics and analysis of the hair shafts / roots?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:How do these scientists designate the term "wavy" and "curly?".
What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
quote:Kinky hair can also be wavy and curly and there are millions of kinky haired peoples in Africa who have curly, wavy, long and flowing hair.
By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair. Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
quote:Second, the authors describing the samples are prejudice for having to additionally throw in the term "typical." A term relative to the persons perspective for its existence.
Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
quote:What other information has been considered besides their subjective report of the hair structure on the samples given i.e. microscopic characteristics and analysis of the hair shafts / roots?
None, unless I have been missing something. Remember, it reports the results of archaeolocal surveys, its not a hair study.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
QUOTE-
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians.
And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile].
I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
MORE OF THIS IN THE NEXT REPLY.
Here is a very idea what upper and southern nubians looked like.
1-THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams. Some things are incorrect when it comes to other certain things or out of date but overall a good book.
The destruction of Black civilization: great issues of a race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D.
posted
^I have read p196-205 of the second book you mention, but there are no answers to my questions. Can you specify which source answers which question?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
QUOTE-
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians.
And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile].
I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
MORE OF THIS IN THE NEXT REPLY.
Here is a very idea what upper and southern nubians looked like.
1-THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams. Some things are incorrect when it comes to other certain things or out of date but overall a good book.
The destruction of Black civilization: great issues of a race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D.
Introduction I. The name Nuba II. Kingdoms on the Nile III. The origins of the Nuba
Introduction
The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.
Until the Egyptian occupation of Sudan during the nineteenth century, most Nuba tribes lived relatively isolated. Contiguous events that shaped their history are the short but extremely violent rule of the Mahdi and his successor, and colonial rule by the British. Sudan took its independence in 1956 and since the 1960s the Nuba have been at odds with their successive National Governments. From 1987 to 2001 the Nuba Mountains were a battle zone in one of the civil wars that continue to devastate the country.
Traditionally the Nuba are farmers, but they are now employed in all segments of society. Since the beginning of the twentieth century, labour migrants have formed large Nuba communities in the large cities of North Sudan, like El Obeid, Khartoum and Port Sudan. In the 1980s and 1990s, the migrants were joined by hundreds of thousands of people who fled from violence. Since fighting in the Nuba Mountains was officially ended in January 2002, many refugees are returning home.
The following brief history aims at providing a broad perspective on the history of the Nuba. I have drawn from many different sources, and consulted scientists considered to be expert in their field for the more remote history. For the most recent history I have relied largely on interviews with Nuba who were closely involved in the developemts leading to the war in the Nuba Mountains and eventually the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement in 2004.
I. The name Nuba
For centuries, the geographical area where the Nuba tribes live has been known as Dar Nuba: the land of the Nuba. The Tegali Kingdom (a truly Nuba kingdom indeed) was known on its own accord, as were several individual hills, but to the Arab people living around the area, the people of the Mountains were all Nuba. The Europeans, relying on the Arabs for information, used the same name.
Until very recently the Nuba people themselves would rather use their tribal name and many didn’t really consider themselves to be Nuba. In the words of Yousif Kuwa Mekki:
It is one of the funniest things: when you were in the Nuba Mountains, you just knew your own tribe. We for example were Miri. So if we were asked: "Who are the Nuba?" we would try to say: "The other tribes - but not us." Only when we came out of the Nuba Mountains, to the north or south or west, we learned that we are all Nuba.1
Please note the word ‘try’ here: linguist and anthropologist A.C. Stevenson noticed that:
Some of the more educated are also shy of applying the term to themselves, they tend to reserve it for those they think of as rustic hill-dwellers: for them ‘Nuba’ is the reverse of a status symbol.2
An old theory supposes a relationship between the word ‘Nuba’ and the Archaic Egyption nbw [nebu], meaning ‘gold’. In ancient times the land south of Egypt produced a lot of gold and so the people were gold diggers; or the ‘land of gold’ would be called Nubia (which it wasn’t) and its people Nuba… Brief: lot’s of charming nonsense.3 And then there is A.J. Arkell’s expalantion:
The name of the Nuba apparently comes, like so many other tribal names in the Sudan (Berti, Berta, Burgu, etc-) from a word in their own language which means 'slaves'.4
Surely there is a connection: the Nuba were harassed by slave raiders for many centuries and to the Arabs ‘Nuba’ became nearly synonymous with ‘slave’. But since Arkell doesn’t mention in which of the many Nuba languages their name means ‘slave’, there is little we can say about his theory, except quoting anthropologist S.F. Nadel:
I will not attempt to trace the origin of this name or to speculate on its original meaning. Suffice to say that in none of the groups which I have studied is the term Nuba indigenous […]5
II. Kingdoms on the Nile
1. Nubia There are Nuba and there are Nubians and this is cause for great confusion. The Nuba are the different peoples living in the Nuba Mountains in Southern Kordofan. The Nubians today are a people who live along the Nile at the border between Egypt and Sudan. Many of them were relocated when the Nasser Dam was built. The Nubians are considered to be descendants of the great Nubian Kingdoms of Kush; Meroe; Nobatia; Makuria (Dongola) or Alodia (Alwa).
I will first run through Nubian history and then turn to the present insights on any connections between the Nuba of Kordofan and the Nubian Kingdoms.
The word ‘Nubia’ is used to describe the land along the Nile south of Egypt; divided into a ‘lower Nubia’ for the area between the first and the second cataract, and an ‘upper Nubia’ for the land beyond the second cataract. Historically however there never was any kingdom or tribe or civilisation by the name Nubia. The use of ‘Nubia’ for the region seems to originate with European atlas makers of the early renaissance who drew maps based on the work of the astrologist and geographer Claudius Ptolemaeus (90-168 AD).6
The earliest Egyptian kings (pre-dynastic and those of the first dynasties) referred to the people to their south as Ta Seti or ‘people of the bow’, for their skill as archers. The Ta Seti were well organised, and their civilisation was not unlike that of the first Egyptians. They disappeared however.
By the Sixth Dynasty (ca. 2323-2150 BC), Egyptian references to Wawat, Irtjet, and Setju seem to identify different small kingdoms in Lower Nubia. They also mention Yam, a kingdom in upper Nubia. There was trade between Yam and Egypt.
While the Middle Kingdom replaced the Old Kingdom in Egypt (ca. 2134-2040 BC), political changes also took place in Upper Nubia. ‘Yam’ disappeared from Egyptian texts and was replaced by Kush, which the Egyptians described as ‘vile’ or ‘contemptible’. Kush became a major power in the south and it took over Lower Nubia around 1700 BC.
Chances turned again and the Egyptians of the New Kingdom (c.1532-1070 BC) crushed the Kush kingdom and its capital Kerma. By the end of the reign of Thutmose I in 1520 BC, all of Upper Nubia had been annexed. The Egyptians built a new administrative and religious centre at Napata; the Nubian elite adopted the worship of Egyptian gods and the hieroglyphic writing system. This way a lot of the ancient Egyptian culture was kept alive for many centuries while the power of Egypt slowly declined.
By 800 BC Egypt had fragmented into rival states, but in 747 BC the Kushite king Piankhy (Piyi) marched north from his capital at Napata and reunified Egypt. Kushite kings ruled both Nubia and Egypt until the invasion of an Assyrian army in 667 BC. The Nubian king fled back to Napata and was defeated decisively in 664 BC.
In 656 BC Psamtik I, founder of the 26th Saite Dynasty, reunited Egypt. In 591 BC his successor Psamtik II invaded Kush and sacked and burned Napata. The kings of Kush moved their capital to Meroë, where they continued to build temples to Nubian and Egyptian gods. The kings were buried in pyramid tombs. Meroë developed a new script and began to write in the Meroitic language, which has yet to be fully deciphered.
Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in 332 BC. His empire was short lived and Egypt once again became a kingdom, under the Ptolemy Dynasty (306-30 BC). The Ptolemies were of Greek descent and in official records the people to the south are now referred to as Aethiopians: Greek for ‘burned faces’. This name, given to them by the first great historian Herodotus, was kept by the Romans, who took control over Egypt in 30 BC.
During the reign of the Ptolemies, Meroe prospered. The initial relationship with the Romans wasn’t that good. According to geographer Strabo (63 BC-24 AD), in 24 BC:
[the Aethiopians] attacked the Thebaïs and the garrison of the three cohorts at [Aswan], and by an unexpected onset took [Aswan] and Elephantine and Philae, and enslaved the inhabitants, and also pulled down the statues of Caesar.7
In 23 BC the Roman governor of Egypt, Petronius,
first compelled them to flee to Pselchis, an Ethiopian city, and sent ambassadors demanding the return of what they had taken, and the reasons why they had begun the war.
The Aethiopians didn’t respond, so in 22 BC Petronius attacked them at Pselchis. Defeating the Aethiopians there, he advanced to Premnis. He took the city and continued to the capital of the Aethiopians at Napata, which he sacked. After some more hostilities, the Aethiopians and the Romans came to a peace agreement, and trade between them flourished for several centuries.
Before turning to the Nuba, I want to stress once more that wherever Nubia is mentioned, we must remember that there are no historic sources from antiquity that use this name. For the word Nuba, it’s a different story.
2. The Nuba enter history Erastothenes (276 to 194 BC) is the first known author to mention a tribe called Nubae. We don’t have the original text, but Strabo was speaking on Erastothenes’ authority when he said:
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.8
Erasthotenes is working his way downstream along the Nile, so he means that the Nubae lived between Meroe and Dongola.. It’s important that he makes a clear distinction between the Aethiopians and the Nubae.
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians. And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.9
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile]. I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.10
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
Nobatia was annexed by Makuria somewhere in the seventh century AD, probably just before the Muslim invasion of Egypt that commenced in 639 AD. The Muslims pushed southwards, but were halted by the army of the Makuria King, with whom they signed a treaty known as the Baqt, to which both parties seem to have kept for quite a long time. It wasn’t until the fourteenth century that Makuria collapsed, soon followed by Alodia, that was overtaken from the south by the newly emerging Funj empire.
The current state of understanding regarding the origin of the Nubians has been summarised by D. A. Welsby. After going through all the available information of historic sources and archeology, he concludes that:
In the sources we have a plethora of names which may refer to a single people, among them Nubae, Nobades, Nobates, Annoubades, Noba, Nouba and Red Noba. The significance of these names is unclear, they may be different names used loosely by our sources, Greek, Roman, Aksumite, Byzantine and Arab, for the same people, refer to sub-groups, or refer to different peoples altogether. Certainly archaeologically we cannot recognise different cultural assemblages to match each name, but we do not have a single culture covering the whole of the area occupied by these peoples. It is these people or peoples who coalesced into the three Nubian kingdoms first attested in the sixth century.
It is assumed that the Nubians gradually infiltrated the Kushite state, with or without the acquiescence of the Kushite rulers, and that, with the weakening of Kushite central authority, they were able to take over the reins of power and eclipse the Kushite ruling class. Another manifestation of this rise to prominence is the sudden appearance on the one hand of their traditional hand-made ceramics in the southern part of the middle Nile Valley, and the demise of the finer Kushite pottery as well as the apparent demise of the Kushite state and religious institutions, Kushite art, architecture, and literacy in the Meroitic language.
A graffito in Greek, carved on the wall of the former Temple of Isis at Philae some time after 537, reads ‘I, Theodosios, a Nubian’ (Nouba) and provides evidence for the name used by the Nubians to describe their ethnicity.11
3. The Nuba on the Nile and the Nuba in the Mountains. Of course it’s tempting to draw a line from the Nile south-eastward. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to provide the Nuba with an ancestry that goes well beyond the arrival of the Arab conquerors? Al right: the Nuba came to the Nile Kingdoms after the time of the Pharaohs, so we forget about Kush and the rule over Egypt… but three ancient Kingdoms that lasted from roughly 400 to 1600 BC wouldn’t be bad, would it?
Well, to begin with: for the majority of the Nuba tribes there is nothing to suggest a relationship with the Nuba on the Nile. No archaeological finds, no linguistic relationships. The only Nuba tribes that can be linked to the Nuba on the Nile, are those speaking one of the Nubian languages. In order to understand more about the relationship between the two groups, we need to look into linguistics classifications.
The basic idea behind linguistic classification is that people speaking the same language can drift apart, after which the language develops differently in the two groups. After so many hundreds of years this leads to the creation of two different languages. Linguists look at lexicological, grammatical and structural aspects of different languages to group them according to affiliation. With the help of standard word lists they can determine the level of proximity between two affiliated languages.
Researchers of the nineteenth century already acknowledged the linguistic affiliation between the Nuba on the Nile, several Nuba tribes in the Mountains and some scattered communities in Darfur.12 They all speak Nubian languages, classified with the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family. For a long time, the burning question was: did the Nuba in the Mountains come from the Nile, or did the Nuba on the Nile come from the west?
Despite the Arab conquest of Egypt and the ensuing Islamisation, the people along the Nile in Lower Nubia retained their original language, known as Nubian, or Nobiin for linguists. Closely related to Nobiin is Dongolawi, spoken up the river around Dongola in present day Sudan. Nobiin and Dongolawi probably drifted apart about 1100 years ago – give or take a century or two. Their languages, and specially Nobiin, are considered to be remnants of Old-Nubian, spoken in the Chrsitian Kingdoms of Nobatia, Dongola and Alwa.
Both Nobiin and Dongolawi are related to the so-called Hill Nubian languages of the Nuba Mountains and Darfur. The tribes that speak Hill-Nubian include those of Dilling, Kadaru and Ghulfan; Wali, Karko, Habila, Debri and some tribes more to the West like Tabag and Abu Jinuk.13 Looking at their geographical dispersion, you can imagine them coming from the northeast, some entering the Nuba Mountains from the side of Kadaru, some moving on westward around the Nyimang hills.
This combines well with events at the Nile in the 13th century AD. After centuries of stability, Bedouin tribes driven south by the Mameluks14 , started raiding Makuria. To the east the Beja were harassing Egypt and the Mameluks decided that if Makuria couldn’t keep the Beja in check, it was time to take matters in their own hands. The region was completely destabilised and we can imagine the people from Makuria fleeing south, until they found refuge in the Nuba Mountains. Makes sense, doesn’t it?
Well… to make a long story longer: linguistic evidence rules against it. Apart from Nobiin, Dongolawi and Hill-Nubian, there are two other Nubian language group: Birgid and Meidob, found further to the west scattered over Darfur (Meidob being extinct by now). Combining linguistic data from the different Nubian languages, J.H. Greenberg concluded that ‘to assume any split between Hill Nubian and Nile Nubian more recent than 2,500 years B.P. [before present] would be incorrect.’15
Of course we can’t give up a beautiful ancestry that easily: C. Herzog noticed that some Hill-Nubian languages have Christian words for days of the week, and other loan words too: the Nuba in Kordofan came from the Nile after all!16 But R. Thelwall wasn’t impressed:
We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier. The fact that the Hill Nubian languages have words for the days of the week dating back to Christian Nubian indicates that these languages were in contact at least during the Christian Nubian period which probably covers 500 CE - 1400 CE. This does not necessarily mean that the Hill Nubians did more than expand from central Kordofan into the NubaMountains during the period of Nubian political dominance from Aswan to Kosti (at least). But given the location of the Hill Nubian speakers (Dair, Dilling, Karko etc) along the NE edge of the Mountains it appears that they were "incomers" settling among the existing Nyima and Temein groups who were there before them.17
It might be a disappointing conclusion for some Nuba, but by now no scholar would still argue that the Nuba in the Mountains are descendants of the Nubian Kingdoms. But let’s not linger with the Nubians any longer: there’s more to explore!
III. The origins of the Nuba
1. ‘We have always lived here.’ But if the Nuba didn’t come from the Nile, then were did they come from? Shall I just say that we have no idea where the Nuba people came from? It would not be far from the facts. S. F. Nadel puts it this way: We know little about the ancient history of the Nuba tribes. […] It often seems as if historical traditions had been cut short by the overpowering experience of the Mahdist regime (1881- 1898), which must have severed all links with a more distant […] past. In some tribes the tradition of past movements or previous places of settlement are summarized in one sentence: ‘we have always lived here.’ Other tribes have more definite and more illuminating traditions, which may even be supported by objective evidence. […] They shed no light on the question of the original home of the Nuba peoples, nor do they supply information as to when and how this area became the habitat of its large and varied population.18
There are simply neither written sources nor archaeological finds that can shed more light on what wanderings brought all the different Nuba tribes to their present place. Below we will see that for the groups that arrived most recently (within the past millennium or two) we have at least an idea of where they migrated from. But beyond that: nothing.
2. The classification of Nuba languages Maybe systematic archaeological research could shed more light on the origins of the Nuba people, but right now we will have to concentrate on linguistic findings. Linguistics is a complex field, not very sexy to be honest, but in many cases, it’s all we have. So we will first look at the classification of the different Nuba languages, and then move on to the question of who came to the Mountains at what time.
The Nuba Languages can be classified into members of two or perhaps three language families: Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian. A. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla. Kordofanian languages are considered a branch of the Niger-Congo family, which encompasses all Bantu languages, and in general most of the languages spoken in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only thing is: Kordofanian doesn’t resemble any of the other Niger-Congo languages closely. It constitutes a group of its own and geographically also, Kordofanian is isolated. In other words: we don’t have a clue as to how these Kordofanian speaking Nuba ended up in the Nuba Mountain. B. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli. It was earlier classified as part of Kordofanian but is currently considered part of Nilo-Saharan. This is another large phylum: Dinka and Nuer are Nilo-Saharan languages, and so are many languages of Chad and Congo, as well as several languages spoken in Nigeria. C. The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called Eastern Sudanic. They consist of Hill Nubian, Daju, Timein and Nyimang. The tribes speaking Eastern Sudanic languages can be found in the north western areas of the Mountains.
3. Linguistic settlement As we’ve just seen in the case of the Nubian speakers, shifts in related languages can tell us something about how long ago the speakers of those languages went their own way. Unfortunately this is not very exact, as Robin Thellwall explained to me: [the] reconstructions are based minimally on linguistic distance and extrapolated onto a fairly speculative time frame (glotto-chronology). Such a time framework is only a provisional and relative model to be tested against other evidence (archaeology, oral traditions, blood types, climate history, agricultural and animal husbandry terminology etc). This has not happened for the NubaMountains.19
However, for ‘The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba in the Mountains’ Thelwall and Schadeberg20 analysed all the available data from the Nuba languages, and they came up with the following hypothesis regarding the relative chronology of the linguistic settlement of the Mountains: 1. Kordofanian language speakers came earlier than all the others 2. Nyimang; Temein and Kadugli language groups followed them 3. Daju speakers of Shatt and Liguri were next 4. Hill Nubian speakers – probably somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD 5. Daju speakers around Lagawa, who settled there relatively recently.
4. Kordofanian Heiban, Katla, Rashad and Talodi are the current names for the different groups of Kordofanian languages that cover the eastern half of the Nuba Mountains and a large part of the centre. Within the language group, differentiation has progressed much further than in the other Nuba language groups. According to R. Thelwall ‘the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.’21 This means that you would have to go back at least 6000 years in time to find all Kordofanian speakers speaking the same language. Kordofanian is classified with the Niger-Congo languages, and the nearest Niger-Congo speaking people would be found over the border of Sudan in southern Chad, in Central African Republic and in the Congo. The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Congo is not clear. The current subdivision of Kordofanian is as follows:
I. Heiban is spoken in a large area that has a geographical centre in the town of Heiban. It can be subdivided in an eastern section, with Kau and Werni in the south-east; a central section with Koalib, Laro, Heiban, Otoro, Shwai and Logol, and a western section with Moro and Tira.
For these tribes, memory doesn’t reach back far enough to retain any information about the origins of the people. We might learn that the Nuba of Kau, who became world-famous through the photographs of Leni Riefenstahl, have been living in their present location for at least 200 years. According to J. C. Faris: Oral traditions document that they were in place before the first Arab Movements into the area (c. 1800, see Cunnison, 1966: 3), and remains of surface habitation, genealogies, and linguistic separation from other of the Koalib-Moro language family all indicate an even greater time span.22 But what does this mean? It could be 500 years; 2000 years… we don’t know.
The Tira have an idea of where they came from, but their place of origin is still within the Nuba Mountains, and the time frame is also rather limited: According to their traditions, the Tira people […] came originally from a place called Rila, said to have been situated between Sheibun and Kadugli […]. They left for unknown reasons to settle on Tomboro hill, in the Moro massif. This tradition is corroborated by the Moro, who still remember that Tomboro […] was inhabited by Tira […] at the time when the Moro first settled in that region. Driven from Tombore by the Arabs, the Tira migrated east, a few groups to Tira Lomon, the rest to Tira el Akhdar. This final migration too place only three generations ago […]. When the fathers and grandfathers of the present generation arrived in Tira they found there already three Tira clans living, speaking the language of the immigrants and possessing an identical culture.23
In connection with Tira, it might be nice to include a story told by S. C. Dunn. Having researched gold washing practices in the Nuba Mountains, he writes that gold could be found mainly in Tira Mandi, with some small deposits in Dungur and Atoro. He also went to Sheibun, which was universally believed to be a place where gold was found… [At Jebel Shwai] Sheikh Naser, his son and several elders […] described to me roughly the position of the pits at Sheibun […]. An old Nuba who knew and had worked at Sheibun was provided as a guide; and I departed for Sheibun. During six hours of climbing around the group of little hills […] I had been led to a little hole on the hill side where some fine white clay had been extracted, to an old rain water pond, to the sites of the old villages and to some mounds of mountain debris. I then said that in my opinion there was not and never had been either gold or gold-washing at Sheibun; and the policemen with me said that was exactly what the Shawabna had told them privately the day before yesterday. [No one told me, because they] thought I would be angry.24 Sheibun did turn out to be the main market where the gold from Tira Mandi was sold though.
The Moro also have only a limited awareness of their history: The ancient home of the Moro people was on Lebu hill, in the western massif [of the Moro area]. Growing too numerous, the tribe [split: one] group remained in Lebu; the second moved to the northern edge of the massif […]; the third migrated to [Umm Dorein]. At that time the eastern massif was still uninhabited. Three or four generations ago the Moro began to settle there […]. This migration […] was prompted by the pressure of population and the search for new lanf, better protected from the Arab raiders.25
The Koalib have a tradition that says that: the northern Koalib lived originally in Kortala, side by side with [a tribe called] Nyemu. Arab (?) pressure drove the Nyemu to Jebel Dair, and some of the Koalib to their present habitat.26 In his 2003 Land Study, Simon Harragin writes: There is historical evidence that the Koalib were once resident on the plains much further west than their current position (Sagar, 1922: 138).27 Together with the Nyimang, the Koalib occupied the area around Dilling before Ghulfan and Kadaru drove a wedge between them. […] However, the historical claim mainly relies on oral history.28
II. Katla, which holds both Katla and Tima, is spoken in the hills southwest of Dilling. I didn’t even find any sources related to their origin.
III. Rashad can be divided into three languages: Tegali, spoken in the Tegali hills, the Rashad hills and the town of Rashad; Tagoi, spoken in Tagoi, Moreb and Tumale, and Tingal, also in the Tegali Hills.
The Nuba of the Tegali kingdom are basically the only ones to have a documented history that goes back beyond the 19th century. It doesn’t provide any clues however, to their origins. The founding stories of the kingdom speak of a ‘wise stranger’ coming to Tegali and starting a dynasty – a common theme in Sudanese traditions29 . I will gladly get back to the kingdom in the next chapter.
IV. Talodi is a group of languages mainly found in the southern part of the Mountains. It can be devided into Lafofa on the central Eliri range and some adjacent hills, and a large Talodi proper group that can be broken down into four groups: Talodi is spoken in Talodi town and on Jebel Talodi; Eliri on the southern Eliri range; Masakin, with Dagik and Ngile as two separate languages, is spoken in the Masakin hills; in Buram, Reikha and Daloka, and finally Tocho, branched into Acherun, Limun and Tocho.
The first Nuba people to hit the coffee tables in an impressive book by Leni Riefenstahl, were the Masakin Qisar, as she calls them. Reifenstahl stayed with the Masakin on several occasions, for weeks or months, but she doesn’t seem to have inquired after their origin. To her, they were ‘Menschen wie von einem anderen Stern’: people that might just as well have come from another star. And of course, in a sense, that is true. We don’t know where the Masakin came from, just as we don’t know where the other Nuba from the Talodi group originated.
5. Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli These three language groups are unique, like the Kordofanian languages, in the fact that they are only spoken in the Nuba Mountains. Judging from the large internal linguistic diversity within each group, the Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli speaking tribes might well have been in the Mountains for more than 2000 years.30 They seem to have come to the Nuba Mountains in tough times, with a lot of people on the move, losing touch with one another. In the words of Thellwal and Schadeberg: All three groups have a reasonably compact distribution within the NubaMountains: Kadugli along the southwestern edge, Temein to the West, and Nyimang to the north. This suggests outside origins and immigration from these respective directions. Assuming that equal internal diversity corresponds to some roughly consistent time depth we may argue that at this particular time in history conditions prevailed in the NubaMountains which resulted in population scattering and reduced inter-group communication. As it is more likely that such conditions originated outside the refuge area we may further speculate that migration to the NubaMountains and diversification occurred in close historical union.31
There is not an awful much to tell about the origins of each individual group, but let’s have a look at them anyway:
I. Nyimang is spoken by the people living on the seven hills of Nyimang: Salara, Tendiya, Kurmeti, Nitil, Fassu, Kelara and Kakara. It is also spoken by the people in the Mandal Hills and at Sobei, and by the more distantly related Afitti in Jebel Dair. The Nyimang call themselves Ama – ‘People’ – or ama mede kolat: people of the seven hills. Little is known about their origin, but S. F. Nadel reports that: the tribe [migrated] from a country ‘in the west’, ‘beyond Tima and Abu Ginuk’, whose name is given as Kugya.32 With R. C. Stevenson this becomes Kwuja or Kwija, which could be Kubja in the El Odaiya area. According to Stevenson the Nyimang: say that they settled first in the eastern hillsof the Nyimang range – Nitil, Kurmiti and Fassu – which they found unoccupied, and only later pushed westwards to Tendia and Salara. [At Salara] they claim to have found the Kunit (one of the Hill Nubian groups) there and to have driven them north after a severe struggle.33 The way the Hill Nubian tribes surround the Nyimang makes this scenario rather improbable. Stevenson remarks that it’s more likely that the Nyimang occupied a larger territory – stretching at least as far as Dilling, until the Hill Nubians arrived.
II. Temein is spoken in the Temein hills (north of Julud); the related Keiga and Teisei are found in Keiga Jirru (west of Debri) and Teisei um-Danab (north-east of Kadugli) respectively. There is nothing to tell about the origin of the Temein, except that: the people of Keiga Jirru claim to have migrated from Temein in the ‘distant past’, and this is supported by Temein tradition which relates that the people of both Keiga Jirru and Teisei-Umm-Danab migrated during a time of famine.34
III. Kadugli as a collective name is not really covering the large range of related languages that are grouped together here. Usually Kadugli is mentioned together with Katcha and Miri; they are so closely related that they could be considered dialects rather then separate languages. There are a number of Nuba languages put together with Kadugli-Miri-Katcha as ‘unclassified’ Nilo-Saharan languages: Tulishi, Kanga, Keiga, Korongo and Tumtum. They are clearly related to each other and to Kadugli-miri-Katcha, but the exact affiliation hasn’t been determined. R. C. Stevenson calls them the Kadugli-Krongo group: [‘the area covered by the group is very widespread; running along the south-west, its limits are Tullishi in the west and Kurondi in the south-east.] The most important hill ranges are Miri, Kadugli and Krongo, after two of which the group has been named.’ 35 In recent publications the group is referred to as the Kadu languages; I will use this term for convenience. The languages from north-west to south-east:
Tulishi is spoken around Jebel Tulishi, Lagawa, Kamdang and Dar El Kabira. Keiga at Jebel Demik (north of Miri): Ambong, Lubung and Tumuro Miri in Miri Bara, Miri Guwa, Luba etc.; all lie west of Kadugli. Kadugli is spoken in Kadugli and the in villages surrounding the town. Katcha is spoken in villages of Katcha, Tuna, Kafina, Dabakaya (Donga), Belanya, and Farouq, a short distance south of Kadugli and southeast of the Miri Hills. Kanga in Abu Sinun, Chiroro-Kursi, Kanga, Kufa-Lima, Krongo Abdalla Korongo towards the south in Tabanya, Toroji, Dar and Angolo; in Damaguto, Dimadragu and Dimodongo, and in Fama, Teis and Kua. Tumtum on Jebel Eliri: Karondi, Talassa and Tumtum
There is not much to tell about the origins of the people speaking one of the Kadu languages: no one knows where they came from. The linguistic and cultural affiliation among the different tribes is clear though. G. Baumann, who spent 18 months among the Miri people, doing research, says: The Miri form part of a larger cultural and linguistic unit known as the Kadugli-Krongo group. […] My own travels in the Kadugli-Krongo region produced a recurring impression of a common cultural heritage that encompassed not only linguistic affinity, but institutions, customs, verbal concepts, and sensitivities shared across boundaries. It is true that each of the Kadugli-Krongo communities has gone its own, different way in the processes of change over recent decades. [But] recent diversification has not as yet been able to obscure or supersede the shared cultural heritage of the neighbouring groups.36
Relationships between the communities are usually recognised by the people themselves, and some myths of origin exist, but only for movements within the Nuba Mountains. S. F. Nadel recorded for example that the people of Korongo: claim close cultural and linguistic affinity with [...] Tumtum on Jebel Talodi, Dere on Jebel Illiri, and three small hill groups in the west: Tesh, Fama and Shatt Safiya. [...] I have checked its truth in Talodi, Tesh and Fama. But the people of Shatt, as I discovered, have a different language and culture and are altogether of a different ethnic stock. The Korongo attribute this community of culture to the common origin of the today widely scattered groups. According to Korongo tradition, Jebel Tabuli, a large, now uninhabited, hill massif east of Korongo, was the ancient home of these different groups.37
Another example can be given for the people of Tulishi: The Tullishi people assert, with the rigidity of a dogma, that they have ‘always’ lived in their hills, unaffected by immigrations. […] The Tullishi people are fully aware of [the] affinity with Kamdang and Truj, but have no traditions of origin or past migrations which might attempt to explain this tribal kinship. They have such traditions with regard to the people of Miri (as also of Jebel Damik and Keiga), with whom they claim a common, or closely similar, language, and common clans. [They lived closely together once, but they split up after a dispute.] The Miri people, we may add, share the tradition of the ancient kinship of the two tribes.38 This is confirmed by G. Baumann, who writes: The mythical link with Tulishi is quite universally recalled […]. Formerly, the Tulishi people lived here on top of a hill called Igyol. [They did something wrong] so they migrated to present home. 39
And that’s it as far as these the Nyimang, the Temein and the Kadugli language speaking Nuba are concerned.
6. Hill Nubian As discussed at length above, the Hill Nubian speaking tribes came to the Mountains from the North, probably before 1400 AD. The different languages are classified as follows:
Ghulfan and Kadaru are grouped together. Ghulfan is spoken in Ghulfan Kurgul and Ghulfan Morung; Kadaru in the hill communites of Kadaru, Kururu, Kafir, Kurtala, Dabatna and Kuldaji. Dilling is spoken in the town and the surrounding villages Dair, in the western and southern parts of Jebel Dair Karko in the Karko Hills and Dulman; maybe also Abu Jinik and Tabaq. Wali in the Wali Hills
Thelwall and Schadeberg can’t say more as to why or when exactly the Hill Nubians migrated south: Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell40 proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. The relative closeness of the Hi1l Nubian dialects to each other does not suggest the presence of isolated Nubian communities in these hills for several millennia.41 It was probably a gradual process. R. C. Stevenson writes: Nubian speech was brought to the northern NubaMountains by tribal movements accelerated by the Arab influx during the past few centuries. In Rüppell’s time (mid 1820s) it was still spoken on the plains south of El Obeid.42
The most detailed account of how some of the Hill Nubians came to the Nuba Mountains is given by S. F. Nadel: The Warke, or Dilling people, have preserved very clear traditions of their origin and past history. Originally, these traditions state, the tribe was living at Abdel Baka in the Ghadayat, under the ‘Sultans’ of that Kingdom, The Ghadayat are said to have been of Fung origin, and ethnically related to the Warke. Later Arab attacks forced the latter to emigrate. They moved first to Boti (now known as Sungikai) , then to Shirma, or Jebel Tukuma (ten miles east of Dilling), and finally to Dilling. The Ghadayat, in their old home, are said to have become ‘like Arabs’, while the Warke ‘became Nuba’. The ancient link, however, survived in the political sphere; the Dilling people remained tributary to the Sultans of Abdel Baka and still recognize, symbolically, their suzerainty […] The genealogy of Dilling chiefs mentions ten who already resided in Dilling. Their relationship is not remembered, but we may assume that their reign embraces a period of no less, and probably more, than 100 years. The Dilling know of their close cultural and linguistic links with Kaduru and Ghulfan [...]. The most widely accepted tradition is this: that the people of Kaduru have lived together with the Warke in the Ghadayat, but later separated; that the Ghulfan groups are of Fung origin, but unknown home; and that a small, isolated group, akin to Dilling in language and culture, and living today on Jebel Tabak in Western Kordofan, had shared with the Warke their old home on Jebel Takuna, but afterwards migrated to its present habitat.43
7. The Daju speaking tribes The Daju speaking tribes came to the Nuba Mountains from the west, from a Daju Kingdom that we know conveniently little about. The Kingdom was based, as early perhaps as 1200 AD, in Jebel Marrah, a rain-fed mountain range in an otherwise arid country. The Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. They were displaced by the Tunjur at the end of the fourteenth century, and left no records besides a list of kings that ends with King Kasi Furogé. The Daju were scattered by the Tunjur and we find them back in some isolated pockets across a wide area of Chad and Sudan, in the regions of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.
Linguistically things don’t seem to be too complicated: following R.C. Stevenson44 we differentiate between Eastern and Western Daju. The Eastern Daju speakers all live in the Nuba Mountains. They are the Shatt in the Shatt Hills south-west of Kadugli (Shatt Damam, Shatt Safaia and Shat Tebeldia), and Liguri and Soburi in the hills north-east of the city. The Western Daju are more scattered. In Chad we find the Mongo in Dar Daju and the Sila in Dar Sila. In Sudan the Nyala around Nyala in Darfur; the Beigo (extinct) in southern Darfur; and the Njalgulgule in southern Sudan on the Sopo River. Also belonging to the Western Daju are the Daju living near Lagawa. and that brings us back to the Nuba Mountains.
Looking at the linguistic data, Robin Thelwall is convinced that the Eastern Daju languages separated from the others long ago, perhaps as much as 2000 years. The Shatt and Liguri have been in the Mountains much longer than the Lagawa, and because of the considerable linguistic distance between the Shatt and the Liguri, it is likely that their migration into the Nuba Mountains predates not only the Lagawa, but also the Nubian arrival in this area45 .
So linguistically it seems clear. Historically it’s a bit hazy though. There is no doubt that 250 years ago there were two people, Daju and Shatt, living in the area of Muglad west of the Nuba Mountains. K. D. D. Henderson, one of the first British district commissioners of Western Kordofan District, says the Daju and Shatt arrived there from Darfur around 1710.46 According to Ian Cunnison they were driven away by the Messyria: When [the Messeria Homr] reached where they are now, they found two pagan tribes: the Shatt and Daju in Muglad [Deinga]. Homr therefore drove the two tribes out of the area. Shatt escaped further south where they met the Ngok Dinka and were further driven west [...]. The Daju escaped [east] and settled among the Nuba.47
Henderson says the Messeria Baggara came to Muglad around the decade of 1765-1775,48 so we have a pretty exact indication of when the Daju came to Lagawa. But what about the Shatt? They went south until they met the Ngok Dinka and were driven west? Please, don’t let the name confuse you: these are not the Shatt in the Nuba Hills. The Ethnologue: Languages of the World explains: 'Caning' is their own name for themselves. 'Shatt' is applied by Arabic speakers to inhabitants of the Kordofan Hills. It means 'dispersed', 'scattered', and is applied to various groups. Distinct from Shatt (Thuri) in the Lwo group, or the Shatt dialect of Mundu.49 The last two groups are living in South Sudan, so that makes sense. It doesn’t explain however why Watkiss Lloyd, the first Governor of Kordofan, would report: The natives of [Shat el Safia, and Shat el Damman] say they formerly occupied the whole of Dar Homr, and this is confirmed by the Homr Arabs, who say there is still a small settlement of the same tribe at a place they call Shat, a few miles over our border.50 We must asume that he just listened to the wrong natives. And what to make of the reconstruction of the Daju and Shatt migration that R.C. Stevenson distilled from K.D.D. Henderson’s data? In his account, the Daju and the Shatt were migrating east together, reaching Muglad around 1710 and moving sort of leisurely towards the area west of Lagawa in the following decennia. From there some of them continued to Liguri and Soburi while others (the Shatt) settled south of Kadugli.51 Stevenson was a distinguished linguist; but somehow he didn’t realise that the differences between the Daju and the Shatt were too big for them to have come to the Nuba Mountains together.
And this, for now, brings me to the end of the investigation into the origins of the Nuba. The results can’t be called glorious, can they? (But the struggle is heroic.) In the next chapter we will focus on more substantial stories of the period before the Mahdiya.
History, part II History, part III
NOTES
1. Interviewed by N.op ‘t Ende; London, February 12 and 13, 2001 2. A.C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 3. 3. A.H. Keane already dismissed it in 1885: Ethnology of Egyptian Sudan; The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 14 (1885), pp. 101. 4. A. J. Arkell: A History of the Sudan to A.D. 1821, 1955. 5. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 2. 6. Claudius Ptolemy: Geography IV, ch.7. The strangest thing is that he locates the Nubae east of the Nile while the European maps invariably put Nubia to the west of the river. 7. Strabo: Geographica, book XVII;54 8. Strabo: Geographica, book XVII;2 9. Procopius: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE: Book I;19 10. Abbreviated text of the Ezana inscription 11. D. A. Welsby: The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia, 2002. 12. A. H. Keane for example: opus cit. 13. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984 14. Slave soldiers of the Ayyubid rulers who rose to high esteem and then rid themselves of their masters, founding the Mameluk Empire that dominated the Middle East for two centuries. 15. J. H. Greenberg: The Languages of Africa, 1963; Int. journal of American linguistics, 29, 1, part 2. 16. R. Herzog: Die Nubier, I957. 17. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History: Who is related to who in and outside of the Nuba Mountains and did they come from anywhere else?; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 18. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 4-5. 19. R. Thelwall, private correspondence. 20. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983) 219-231 21. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 22.J. C. Faris: Nuba Personal Art, 1972, pp. 14. 23. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 176-177. 24. S. C. Dunn: Native Gold Washings in the Nuba Mountains Province; Sudan Notes and Records, VoL IV. No. 3, October 1921, pp. 143-144. 25. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 178 26. Idem, pp. 358. 27. J. W. Sagar: Notes on the History, Religion and Customs of the Nuba; Sudan Notes and records 5 (1922), pp. 137 - 156. 28. S. Harragin: Nuba Mountains Land and Natural Resources Study; Part I – Land Study, 2003. 29. J. J. Ewald: Experience and Speculation: History and Founding Stories in the Kingdom of Tagali, 1780- 1935; the International Journal of African Historical Studies, Vol 18, No. 2 (1985), pp.265-287. 30. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 31. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983) 219-231 32. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 362. 33. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 85. 34. Idem, pp. 122. 35. R. C. Stevenson: A Survey of the Phonetics and Grammatical Structure of the Nuba Mountains Languages, with Particular Reference to Otoro, Katcha and Nyimang; Africa und Übersee 40 (1956), pp. 103. 36. G. Baumann: National Integration and Local Integrity, the Miri of the Nuba Mountains in the Sudan, 1987, pp. 22-24. 37. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 368. 38. Idem, pp. 319. 39. G. Baumann: opus cit., pp. 140 40. A. J. Arkell: A History of the Sudan from the Earliest Times to 1821, 1955. 41. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983), pp. 219-231 42. R. C. Stevenson: Linguistic Research in the Nuba Mountains; Sudan Notes and Records 45 (1963), pp. 79-102. 43. S. F. Nadel: the Nuba, an anthropological study of the Hill Tribes in Kordofan, 1947. 44. R. C. Stevenson: A survey of the phonetics and grammatical structure of the Nuba Mountains languages, with particular reference to Otoro, Katcha and Nyimang; Afrika und Übersee 40, 1956-7 45. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 46. K. D. D. Henderson: The Migration of the Messiria into South West Kordofan; Sudan Notes & Records 22/1, 1939 47. I. Cunnison: The Baggara Arabs: Power and Lineage in the Sudanese Nomadic Tribe, 1966 48. Idem, pp. 54 49. Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/. 50. Watkiss Lloyd: Notes on Kordofan Province; The Geographical Journal, Vol. 35, No. 3 (Mar. 1910) pp. 249 - 267 51. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 35-37
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posted
All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
^^My position has been and remains that Africans are the most diverse people in the world, and that hair variety is merely another indicator of that diversity.
Tropical Africans can have straight, wavy, loose, curly or "kinky" hair as part of their BUILT-IN indigenous diversity, without needing any "race mix" from so-called "Eurasians." WHether it be skin color, gene variation, dental diversity, nose diversity, cranial diversity, or general phenotype, tropical Africans are the originals and have it all, and/or the capability of creating it all over time. If nukes wiped out humanity and left say only 10,000 tropical Africans, they can repopulate the earth, and with enough time and migration, reproduce all that we have now.
So I see "kinky" hair in the Nile Valley as just another routine slice of built-in NATIVE diversity. It is not and was never "foreign." It is part of the native range of variation. This is the crucial point EUrocentrics, and the idiotic trolls seek to deny so desperately. They are desperate because African diversity puts a fatal spike in their race hierarchy models and ideology, a killing spike driven into the heart of their racial project, which is to show that whites are so-called "role models" of human perfection, goodness and virtue
But when the hard data is examined, their precious little "race" project falls apart, and the "role models" all are supposed to bow down to are revealed as nothing special- just another human group riddled with corruption, filth and violence.
I would agree with you that the bar should be raised and that Somalians or Ethiopians are nothing standalone. It is from eastern Africa that humanity began its global expansion, including expansion within Africa. That area is nothing standalone- to the contrary it is at the very heart of tropical African diversity.
They can deny all they want, but their denials are ultimately irrelevant to the bare facts on the ground.
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
Yeah right! I mean seriously Kenndo, what does all of that stuff have to do with the topic of this thread??
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
There were BLEMMYES too in lower nubia. kushites from ever book i read had kinky hair while red noba and other nubians in lower nubia had varied hair forms and african features more closer to upper egyptians,of course they were african features,so euronuts lose either way.
It seems these hair studies or lot of studies dealing with head shapes etc is focus more on lower nubia.
IF you look at these studies of the meroitic period and see the location of what parts of nubia is the focus in these studies is lower nubia.
Every study i see a euronut trys to make a point and make nubians non- black is from lower nubia AND THEY TRY to say this was all nubia,and it's clear it's not.
Lower nubia is a abit of a different case then the rest of nubia,so we must be careful not to have lower nubia represent all of nubia,because it does not.
Let's make this simple and cut the bullcrap.
It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
So i will stick TO the facts that is well known FROM books from well known good scholars not the internet.
Greeks and others make this very clear while lower nubia before the kushite invasions had types more closer to blacks of upper egypt.
Modern scholars makes very this clear too.
In fact most kushites lived in southern nubia closer to central sudan.
MORE studies need to be done there but lower nubia is just easier to get to or study more so right now and historians will tell you that.
Lower nubia was conquered many more times then any other place in nubia as well if you get my point.
It's clear lower nubia had a population that was much smaller then other regions of nubia and it was more varied with different populations. Just saying.
Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
Anyway as far as features go, Lower Nubians even in recent literature are stereotyped as being taller and darker than even Upper Egyptians but with more pronounced "caucasian" features like narrower noses and thinner lips. I haven't read any info on hair texture, but we all know that epipaleolithic Nubians of the same area looked much different with more robust facial features but I wonder if the hair was the same as in wavy or loose.
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
I want to post some info about the noba and nubia for a while now here because it's always brought up that nubians did not live in the noba hills or in darfur or central sudan,so i just remind myself about that,so instead of creating a new thread i just posted here. maybe i should create a thread about this.read the whole thing,this is good info about the noba and nuba anyway.
EVERY TIME i come TO THIS FORUM there is always someone that says nubians and nuba are different and i kept saying some are some are not,so i am not saying you are saying this but i just put the info out just in case because i have a funny feeling it will come up again and i keep repeating myself.
The info about the noba living in lower nubia i posted above.
My point was that noba live in lower nubia and were mostly the main group before kush fell in lower nubia,at least a large part of the the lower nubian population before 350 a.d.
The books kingdom of kush explains this and quote and The destruction of Black civilization. when i read the book that what i get out of it.
I COULD BE WRONG and if so okay,but to me the books i have read always mentions that the population or at least a large part of it was noba and most were called red noba by roman historians by 350 a.d.
when a new nubian kingdom is set up it seem the noba at least in lower nubia have become the larger group,of course the kushites still had the major power there until 350 a.d.
The kushites and the noba lived in lower nubia so my my point is that many of the bodies and hair studied are not kushites if you break the nubian population down in lower nubia.
I JUST READ AGAIN many kushites retreat back to upper nubia before kush fell.
Has for what kushites look like I WAS talking more so about the later kushites not those of kerma.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
ONE point i have to make it seems when the term meriotic population is used i do not believe they are just talking about kushites but other nubians in the nile valley too.every study i tend to see says the nubians since we all know nubians vary.THey are all lump in together has meriotic AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM if that's the case.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams.
read page 139.
This is one of the main books that talk about the red noba was a large or the major group by 350 a.d. so if that's the case they were in lower nubia before kush fell.I am going mainly by this info i have read in this book.
Let me make THIS point here,alot of my info about kush i got from this book, THE MORE UPDATE BOOKS,the two kingdom of kush books and a few african and afro-centric scholars.
SO WHEN SOMEONE ASK ME about where i get the info from i tell them about these books mostly .
I DO NOT TRUST to many other BOOKS ON THIS SUBJECT. I will leave it at that.
and
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
I BELIEVE the kerma population basically looked like the later kushite population,or at least closer looking to southern nubians then lower nubians like the a- group.
Head of a Nubian. Faience, Kerma, Cemetery, Eastern Deffufa (K II), ...
Harvard University–Boston Museum of Fine Arts Expedition: 20.1305a
This faience head clearly represents a Nubian with tightly curled hair. It was excavated at Kerma by George A. Reisner, who thought it was originally an inlay. Since faience at Kerma could have been locally manufactured or have come from Egypt, it is not certain whether this head represents an Egyptian or a Nubian perspective.
Of course the napatan/meriotic population that started the napatan period came from southern nubia.david o-conner in his book ancient nubia has some details about this.
THIS WAS A NEW WAVE of kushites that spread and took over upper nubia and later lower nubia.
has you know egypt never conqured the southern nubia and southern nubia was not called kush in new kingdom times,that was upper nubia,later kush won it's freedom and later around 900 b.c. waves of southern nubians took over and created the new kingdom of kush and they included in this new kush kingdom southern nubia for the first time.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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